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Mile High Champ
09-04-2011, 07:01 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

1) Lebron James
2) Dwight Howard
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2010 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Kevin Durant
5) Chris Paul
6) Dwight Howard
7) Carmelo Anthony
8) Dirk Nowitzki
9) Deron Williams
10) Tim Duncan - Pau Gasol Tie


2009 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwayne Wade
4) Chris Paul
5) Dwight Howard
6) Tim Duncan
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Carmelo Anthony
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Brandon Roy

In terms of adding players to the poll, it will be done like this.

As soon as Chris Paul goes off the board, I will add other PG's.
As soon as Dwyane Wade goes off the board, I will add other SG's
As soon as Dirk goes off the board, I will add other power forwards.

And so on and so on..

This is to ensure that players that won their respective positions get a higher place in the top list.

Avenged
09-04-2011, 07:05 PM
Dwight Howard for sure!

Khalifa21
09-04-2011, 07:07 PM
I think Dwight will run away with this one.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 07:07 PM
Dwight Howard for sure!

Not surprised to see Avenged24 be the first to comment. I agree Dwight Howard for sure.

Mile High Champ
09-04-2011, 07:07 PM
In terms of adding players to the poll, it will be done like this.

As soon as Chris Paul goes off the board, I will add other PG's.
As soon as Dwyane Wade goes off the board, I will add other SG's
As soon as Dirk goes off the board, I will add other power forwards.

And so on and so on..

This is to ensure that players that won their respective positions get a higher place in the top list.

Avenged
09-04-2011, 07:09 PM
There should be more options now though.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 07:10 PM
In terms of adding players to the poll, it will be done like this.

As soon as Chris Paul goes off the board, I will add other PG's.
As soon as Dwyane Wade goes off the board, I will add other SG's
As soon as Dirk goes off the board, I will add other power forwards.

And so on and so on..

This is to ensure that players that won their respective positions get a higher place in the top list.

Rose and Kobe fanboys are going to want to have your head for this... :laugh2:

Mile High Champ
09-04-2011, 07:11 PM
There should be more options now though.

I will continue to add players as they go off the board. Why should we add Rose when Paul beat him in the PG poll? Why should we add Kobe when wade beat him in the SG poll. The guys at the top of their positions should go ahead of the guys behind them.

Mile High Champ
09-04-2011, 07:12 PM
Rose and Kobe fanboys are going to want to have your head for this... :laugh2:

Probably right but it is the only fair way. It would be stupid to have Rose ahead of Paul at this point or Kove over Wade.. Agree?

Chacarron
09-04-2011, 07:13 PM
Superman.

So Andrew Bynum will be on the poll after this one?

Avenged
09-04-2011, 07:17 PM
I will continue to add players as they go off the board. Why should we add Rose when Paul beat him in the PG poll? Why should we add Kobe when wade beat him in the SG poll. The guys at the top of their positions should go ahead of the guys behind them.

I guess it makes sense. But what if a player voted #2 PF is better than one of the top 5 voted in their position? All of this is just people's opinion, and there are several players worthy of a top 5 spot.

Mile High Champ
09-04-2011, 07:18 PM
I guess it makes sense. But what if a player voted #2 PF is better than one of the top 5 voted in their position? All of this is just people's opinion, and there are several players worthy of a top 5 spot.

Yes but everything works out in the end. Two PF's can get in the top 5 if Dirk goes off the board to allow that.

tredigs
09-04-2011, 07:20 PM
It's tough for me here between Wade, Howard and Paul. I think both Paul and Wade are far, far better ball players than D. Howard, but his impact (which I do think is helped by the weakness of his competition relative to players from every other position) is undeniable. Not to say that Cp3's or Wade's are either. They've all been in similar situations for the bulk of their career where they've had to absolutely carry their respective teams, and they've done it about as well as you could hope for.

I'm sure the rest of PSD is going to lean heavily for D. Howard, but this is a tough one for me. I'll make my vote after I get home later and see some other peoples arguments.



Yes but everything works out in the end. Two PF's can get in the top 5 if Dirk goes off the board to allow that.

Fair reasoning. If one player was voted ahead of another from that position a mere few weeks ago with no basketball in the meantime, there's no reason to have them on the board ahead of that guy from the same position if Wade is still on the board (regardless if he's ahead of a PG/C, etc.).

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 07:20 PM
Probably right but it is the only fair way. It would be stupid to have Rose ahead of Paul at this point or Kove over Wade.. Agree?

Don't 100% agree for the reason that chacarronsau mentioned. Is Bynum going to go after Howard is voted here or are you going like you explained in the earlier post. When Howard's off the board I'm guessing that no one will be added. Am I right?

tredigs
09-04-2011, 07:27 PM
Don't 100% agree for the reason that chacarronsau mentioned. Is Bynum going to go after Howard is voted here or are you going like you explained in the earlier post. When Howard's off the board I'm guessing that no one will be added. Am I right?

Even though it would be ridiculous to have Bynum on there, the logic still works in the sense that the next best player will still be there.

I.e. If Durant was JUST voted over Melo in the positional thread, why allow him the opportunity to go ahead of him in the overall thread?

It helps make the two lists cohesive. It's slightly flawed, but I actually think it's a smart way to do it.

Mile High Champ
09-04-2011, 07:30 PM
Don't 100% agree for the reason that chacarronsau mentioned. Is Bynum going to go after Howard is voted here or are you going like you explained in the earlier post. When Howard's off the board I'm guessing that no one will be added. Am I right?

Even if Bynum goes up there, no one has to vote for him..

Mile High Champ
09-04-2011, 07:31 PM
Even though it would be ridiculous to have Bynum on there, the logic still works in the sense that the next best player will still be there.

I.e. If Durant was JUST voted over Melo in the positional thread, why allow him the opportunity to go ahead of him in the overall thread?

It helps make the two lists cohesive. It's slightly flawed, but I actually think it's a smart way to do it.

This is exactly what I am going for.. Last year the top list made next to no sense and I have tried to fix it this time around.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 07:34 PM
Even though it would be ridiculous to have Bynum on there, the logic still works in the sense that the next best player will still be there.

I.e. If Durant was JUST voted over Melo in the positional thread, why allow him the opportunity to go ahead of him in the overall thread?

It helps make the two lists cohesive. It's slightly flawed, but I actually think it's a smart way to do it.


Even if Bynum goes up there, no one has to vote for him..

Understood

Ezio
09-04-2011, 07:47 PM
Dwight. Anchors a defense. Demands so much attention when he has the ball. Can guard, I say 1-5 positions.

Cano4prez
09-04-2011, 07:51 PM
Dwight followed by Wade

sixer04fan
09-04-2011, 08:21 PM
In terms of adding players to the poll, it will be done like this.

As soon as Chris Paul goes off the board, I will add other PG's.
As soon as Dwyane Wade goes off the board, I will add other SG's
As soon as Dirk goes off the board, I will add other power forwards.

And so on and so on..

This is to ensure that players that won their respective positions get a higher place in the top list.

This is such a flawed system I hope you can see that...

LTBaByyy
09-04-2011, 08:27 PM
Dwight
Wade
Dirk
Paul

SteBO
09-04-2011, 08:32 PM
Has to be Dwight here. His lack of competition at the center spot helps his case, but the impact he has on his own team both offensively and defensively is tough to match in the league right now.

j11430
09-04-2011, 08:49 PM
Suprised at how little Chris Paul's getting, the Hornets are nothing without him

da ThRONe
09-04-2011, 08:53 PM
After LeBron it's CP3 IMO. He's may not be a defensive nightmare, but he's very disruptive and he gets the most out of every position. All time great at being efficient with the ball, a coach on the court, and has a killer instinct as a PG that rivals MJ.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 08:54 PM
Suprised at how little Chris Paul's getting, the Hornets are nothing without him

I am just as surprised that Dwyane has zero votes and KD alone has more than Dirk, Wade and CP3 combined.

Chronz
09-04-2011, 08:57 PM
Just because bynum will be an option doesn't mean he will get voted ahead of where he deserves, nothing flawed about this unless you want to forget all the work done before this which would be a waste

da ThRONe
09-04-2011, 08:59 PM
This is such a flawed system I hope you can see that...

Makes perfect sense. If your not better then the guy ahead of you how can you be next in line?

Chronz
09-04-2011, 08:59 PM
This is such a flawed system I hope you can see that...

In what way? The 2 list should make sense together otherwise whats the point?

da ThRONe
09-04-2011, 09:03 PM
I am just as surprised that Dwyane has zero votes and KD alone has more than Dirk, Wade and CP3 combined.

Yeah personally I have Durant 8th overall and the 3rd SF after Melo.

KnicksorBust
09-04-2011, 09:06 PM
Dwight Howard for the reasons already mentioned.

LTBaByyy
09-04-2011, 09:10 PM
We shouldnt have put KD on here, this is crazy

Dirk and CP3 better end up 4th and 5th

tredigs
09-04-2011, 09:38 PM
Yeah personally I have Durant 8th overall and the 3rd SF after Melo.

Thing is, you're in the minority here according to the vote PSD already had a couple weeks ago, which is why we're doing it this way. He just wants both lists to have cohesiveness. It's a smart way to ensure that, and it works.

MileHigh, you might as well post your explanation for this on your main post for each ranking. You're going to hear crap about it in every thread if not (well, even with it - but you won't have to bother re-explaining yourself).

I've decided I'm voting Cp3. I just think he's the 2nd best player in the NBA (just ahead of Wade), regardless of Dwight's monster impact and Dirk/Durant's elite scoring capabilities.

When he's on, he takes command of a game in a way that not many in the games history can claim. He's like some kind of basketball savant. Dwight's a huge force, and just as important to the Magic as Cp3 is to New Orleans, but I'm going to vote with my instincts on this one (also, I foresee a monster few seasons from Cp3 on the horizon before his knees give).

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 09:47 PM
seems like a good way of underating kobe.

sorry but its ridiculous that there is a chance he goes out of the top ten due to the system.

if you wanted to do it like that you shold have added 15 options with the 3 top of each position and then do the replace by position thing.

jimm120
09-04-2011, 09:52 PM
It's tough for me here between Wade, Howard and Paul. I think both Paul and Wade are far, far better ball players than D. Howard, but his impact (which I do think is helped by the weakness of his competition relative to players from every other position) is undeniable. Not to say that Cp3's or Wade's are either. They've all been in similar situations for the bulk of their career where they've had to absolutely carry their respective teams, and they've done it about as well as you could hope for.

I'm sure the rest of PSD is going to lean heavily for D. Howard, but this is a tough one for me. I'll make my vote after I get home later and see some other peoples arguments.




Fair reasoning. If one player was voted ahead of another from that position a mere few weeks ago with no basketball in the meantime, there's no reason to have them on the board ahead of that guy from the same position if Wade is still on the board (regardless if he's ahead of a PG/C, etc.).

I understand what you're doing and its good...

BUT YOU GOTTA ADD IN MORE PEOPLE AFTER THE TOP GUYS ARE CHOSEN.

Example, the top SF came off the board but you only added Durant to the board.

I think you should add in the # 2-4 spots of each position after the #1 is chosen.

I really dont like how you ONLY Added durant for the sf. Technically, after the first five or seven picks, we should have aroun 15 options on the poll (well, we can leave out centers since we know that dwigt is the only one worthy).

Just saying

tredigs
09-04-2011, 09:56 PM
seems like a good way of underating kobe.

sorry but its ridiculous that there is a chance he goes out of the top ten due to the system.

if you wanted to do it like that you shold have added 15 options with the 3 top of each position and then do the replace by position thing.

How do you figure? Wade will go top 5 without a doubt. From there on out Kobe will be able to be picked (probably from 3 or 4 forward). I wouldn't doubt if he goes 6th overall.

da ThRONe
09-04-2011, 09:59 PM
Thing is, you're in the minority here according to the vote PSD already had a couple weeks ago, which is why we're doing it this way. He just wants both lists to have cohesiveness. It's a smart way to ensure that, and it works.

MileHigh, you might as well post your explanation for this on your main post for each ranking. You're going to hear crap about it in every thread if not (well, even with it - but you won't have to bother re-explaining yourself).

I've decided I'm voting Cp3. I just think he's the 2nd best player in the NBA (just ahead of Wade), regardless of Dwight's monster impact and Dirk/Durant's elite scoring capabilities.

When he's on, he takes command of a game in a way that not many in the games history can claim. He's like some kind of basketball savant. Dwight's a huge force, and just as important to the Magic as Cp3 is to New Orleans, but I'm going to vote with my instincts on this one (also, I foresee a monster few seasons from Cp3 on the horizon before his knees give).

I understand the system and was defending it. Lol. I was just giving my personal order.

Imagine if Howard comes to New Orleans to pair with Chris. Best C meets best PG. A Hornets fan can dream. Although after the new CBA I think NOLA will be on a Superman short list of places he would like to be traded to if he forces Orlando's hand.

tredigs
09-04-2011, 10:00 PM
I understand what you're doing and its good...

BUT YOU GOTTA ADD IN MORE PEOPLE AFTER THE TOP GUYS ARE CHOSEN.

Example, the top SF came off the board but you only added Durant to the board.

I think you should add in the # 2-4 spots of each position after the #1 is chosen.

I really dont like how you ONLY Added durant for the sf. Technically, after the first five or seven picks, we should have aroun 15 options on the poll (well, we can leave out centers since we know that dwigt is the only one worthy).

Just saying

But you've gotta understand that this would create a situation where some of the guys who went behind certain players in the direct positional argument (top ten SF's, PF's, etc) would now go ahead of them in the overall rankings. Which makes no sense. He's just setting it up so it's guaranteed that that won't happen.



I understand the system and was defending it. Lol. I was just giving my personal order.

Imagine if Howard comes to New Orleans to pair with Chris. Best C meets best PG. A Hornets fan can dream. Although after the new CBA I think NOLA will be on a Superman short list of places he would like to be traded to if he forces Orlando's hand.

Ah k.

And I know, that pairing would be insane. I'd put them over 'Bron/Wade/Bosh with just a select few key role players.

da ThRONe
09-04-2011, 10:07 PM
I understand what you're doing and its good...

BUT YOU GOTTA ADD IN MORE PEOPLE AFTER THE TOP GUYS ARE CHOSEN.

Example, the top SF came off the board but you only added Durant to the board.

I think you should add in the # 2-4 spots of each position after the #1 is chosen.

I really dont like how you ONLY Added durant for the sf. Technically, after the first five or seven picks, we should have aroun 15 options on the poll (well, we can leave out centers since we know that dwigt is the only one worthy).

Just saying

What you are saying dismisses all the poll that ranked the top ten players at each position. If Melo is the 3rd best SF how should he be eligible to go ahead of Durant who's already been vote the 2nd best SF? If the next two best players are SG's or PG's they'll still come off the board in that order.

jimm120
09-04-2011, 10:11 PM
Lol. Just read the topic completely and see people saying the same hing i hought of.

I like the rule...but onky for the top player at each position. But with all honesty, i feel that after that, things change.

In a one on one between paul and rose, paul wins. But maybe when you integrate all of the other pkayers, the comparison changes

Remember, before we were voting based on the impact a certain player makes to that specific position. But this is the impact a player has to the Nba, regardless of their position.

Just my train of thought.

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 10:17 PM
How do you figure? Wade will go top 5 without a doubt. From there on out Kobe will be able to be picked (probably from 3 or 4 forward). I wouldn't doubt if he goes 6th overall.

when the reality is he probably can still be argued top 3-4.
im mostly sure for example that there are like 5 PF on the top 20 3 on top 15 2 top 10.

With your system it will probably be one in the top 10 1 in teh top 15 the rest not even top 20.

GoPacers33
09-04-2011, 10:20 PM
Dwight


1000

tredigs
09-04-2011, 10:26 PM
when the reality is he probably can still be argued top 3-4.
im mostly sure for example that there are like 5 PF on the top 20 3 on top 15 2 top 10.

With your system it will probably be one in the top 10 1 in teh top 15 the rest not even top 20.

You don't get it. That is all I can really say on this one.

knightstemplar
09-04-2011, 10:34 PM
Kevin Durant is an option and Kobe isnt
:facepalm:

da ThRONe
09-04-2011, 10:34 PM
Lol. Just read the topic completely and see people saying the same hing i hought of.

I like the rule...but onky for the top player at each position. But with all honesty, i feel that after that, things change.

In a one on one between paul and rose, paul wins. But maybe when you integrate all of the other pkayers, the comparison changes

Remember, before we were voting based on the impact a certain player makes to that specific position. But this is the impact a player has to the Nba, regardless of their position.

Just my train of thought.

If it's already been established that Paul>Rose. How is it that Rose can leap frog Paul as a better player in the overall best player. That makes no sense.

naps
09-04-2011, 11:03 PM
Dwyane Wade followed by Dwight Howard. Dwight is a superior defender and Wade is a superior offensive player but you can't relay on Dwight when the game is close at the end. He has yet to learn how to carry his team offensively in the crunch time.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 12:17 AM
Dwight and it's really not all that close. I could make a pretty big argument for him at #1. No one with the exception of CP3 carries his team as much as he does and the Magic would be a bottom 3 team without him.

Mile High Champ
09-05-2011, 01:03 AM
You don't get it. That is all I can really say on this one.

Exactly, he does not get it at all. Just because Kobe is not on the poll now, does not mean he still can't land in the top 5. I am glad the smart posters have picked up on what I have tried to do here..:D

SportsFanatic10
09-05-2011, 03:23 AM
all the durant votes are crazy lol. this should be between dwight and wade with howard getting the very slight nod imo and i'm a heat/wade fan. durant just isn't a good enough all around player to be getting this many votes this early. i voted for wade even though dwight is my real vote since hes clearly gonna win it anyways i thought i'd try and even out the wade/durant votes.

naps
09-05-2011, 03:43 AM
Dwight Howard is amazing defensively and ok offensively. Don't get me wrong but let's be honest, he has the weakest competition out of all the superstars. All other positions have strong competitions or at least much stronger competitions than centers. He's the only elite center in the league where guys like Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Durant, Melo, Rose, CP3, Dirk, Pau etc have to go through harder opponents most nights. It's not a cakewalk for those guys as much as it's for Dwight.
And even though he improved his offensive game last year it's far from being a game-changer. You can't relay on his hands when the game is close in the 4th. Opponents can easily foul him and take him on the line since his FT shooting is bad. He's not a good passer as well (kicking it out to the perimeter when double teamed). Once he becomes better in these aspects he will automatically become the best in the league assuming he continues to dominate the defensive end.

The vote gap between Dwight and Wade is 31. I find it ridiculous. Wade is getting unfair treatment here.

SportsFanatic10
09-05-2011, 04:01 AM
Dwight Howard is amazing defensively and ok offensively. Don't get me wrong but let's be honest, he has the weakest competition out of all the superstars. All other positions have strong competitions or at least much stronger competitions than centers. He's the only elite center in the league where guys like Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Durant, Melo, Rose, CP3, Dirk, Pau etc have to go through harder opponents most nights. It's not a cakewalk for those guys as much as it's for Dwight.
And even though he improved his offensive game last year it's far from being a game-changer. You can't relay on his hands when the game is close in the 4th. Opponents can easily foul him and take him on the line since his FT shooting is bad. He's not a good passer as well (kicking it out to the perimeter when double teamed). Once he becomes better in these aspects he will automatically become the best in the league assuming he continues to dominate the defensive end.

The vote gap between Dwight and Wade is 31. I find it ridiculous. Wade is getting unfair treatment here.

very good post. from the looks of it durant might win #3 lol.

Bruno
09-05-2011, 06:03 AM
In terms of adding players to the poll, it will be done like this.

As soon as Chris Paul goes off the board, I will add other PG's.
As soon as Dwyane Wade goes off the board, I will add other SG's
As soon as Dirk goes off the board, I will add other power forwards.

And so on and so on..

This is to ensure that players that won their respective positions get a higher place in the top list.

Why should that be a priority in terms of ranking the best overall players? It makes no sense to put C. Anthony in place of Durant if KD wins a poll over Dirk, Paul, or Wade, opposed to adding Rose or Bryant. Bryant, Rose (both #2 in their respected position polls) and other notable #2's should be added.

If Durant beats out Paul, Nowitzki or Wade the process you're going for will be contradicted. Lets expand the poll options for #3.

UKblazers
09-05-2011, 06:50 AM
Dwight is the logical choice based on last year, however if i was comfortable knowing that the CP3 is finally fully recovered from the knee i would pick him slightly ahead.

Jewelz0376
09-05-2011, 07:18 AM
Dwight Howard is amazing defensively and ok offensively. Don't get me wrong but let's be honest, he has the weakest competition out of all the superstars. All other positions have strong competitions or at least much stronger competitions than centers. He's the only elite center in the league where guys like Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Durant, Melo, Rose, CP3, Dirk, Pau etc have to go through harder opponents most nights. It's not a cakewalk for those guys as much as it's for Dwight.
And even though he improved his offensive game last year it's far from being a game-changer. You can't relay on his hands when the game is close in the 4th. Opponents can easily foul him and take him on the line since his FT shooting is bad. He's not a good passer as well (kicking it out to the perimeter when double teamed). Once he becomes better in these aspects he will automatically become the best in the league assuming he continues to dominate the defensive end.

The vote gap between Dwight and Wade is 31. I find it ridiculous. Wade is getting unfair treatment here.

The gap between D12 and Wade in the voting doesn't mean that many people feel D12 is a ton better than Wade...

I voted for D12, but I think its close between him and Wade... I'm sure there are plenty of people that voted for D12 that feel the same way..

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 08:04 AM
Why should that be a priority in terms of ranking the best overall players? It makes no sense to put C. Anthony in place of Durant if KD wins a poll over Dirk, Paul, or Wade, opposed to adding Rose or Bryant. Bryant, Rose (both #2 in their respected position polls) and other notable #2's should be added.

If Durant beats out Paul, Nowitzki or Wade the process you're going for will be contradicted. Lets expand the poll options for #3.

Agreed, there is no reason why Rose a guy who led his team to the best record in the league and won league MVP by a blowout should not be in the poll as an option, I could care less if Chris Paul won the PG voting, people voted him simply because if he is healthy he is the best problem is last year he wasn't healthy and you can't use past stuff from years before to say who the best was for the 2010-2011 season and upcoming 2011-2012 season.

ragee
09-05-2011, 09:44 AM
People are saying Dwight should not be number 2 because he can't be relied upon during crunch time yet they still voted for Lebron, who choked against the Mavs in the finals and the Celts last year? That is just flawed reasoning in my opinion. Among all the players that are being mentioned, Dwight can affect the game the most. Imagine what his team could accomplish if he had a support group like Lebron's, Dirk's, Durant's or Rose's.

FutureGM
09-05-2011, 09:49 AM
Agreed, there is no reason why Rose a guy who led his team to the best record in the league and won league MVP by a blowout should not be in the poll as an option, I could care less if Chris Paul won the PG voting, people voted him simply because if he is healthy he is the best problem is last year he wasn't healthy and you can't use past stuff from years before to say who the best was for the 2010-2011 season and upcoming 2011-2012 season.

What makes this any different? If people voted for Chris Paul then they should do so again. It doesn't magically say anything different in the title and the opening post doesn't indicate that we should change how we justify our votes. You sound a little upset. I get what Mile High is doing here and I respect that he should be allowed to organize the polls as he sees fit considering the fact that he is the one creating them. His construction is justified in my eyes.

As for the Rose/Paul debate, if you happen to use the playoffs as an indicator for who the overall better player is then you might have your answer as to why Paul beat Rose. It might be a little short sighted but then again many of the posters on PSD are.

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 10:04 AM
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=644398 - CP3 vs Durant

CP3 beat out Durant however here Durant is beating out CP3


http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273886 - CP3 vs Dwight

CP3 was close as hell to Dwight and now Dwight is blowing out CP3


So if CP3 beat out Rose and Durant in other polls one on one, then that means he should beat out them in this one as well right? But that is not the case, yet you have Durant still in the poll.



http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=625617&highlight=Dwight+Howard+vs+Chris+Paul - Dirk beat out Wade as well one on one but here Wade is taking the cake.


http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=519182&highlight=Dwight+Howard+vs+Chris+Paul - Dwight vs Wade was neck and neck

However here Dwight is blowing him out.

Chronz
09-05-2011, 10:22 AM
The notion of clutch isn't exactly concrete so I refuse to believe Dwight isn't as good of a player in the final minutes as he is in the beginning. Think about it people, even if you foul Dwight, hitting 1 of 2 on average (unless you have proof that he consistently shoots higher/lower) is still a higher clutch% than most people shoot from the field, on top of that their players get into foul trouble and you get to set your defense up. That's a clutch player.

Mile High Champ
09-05-2011, 10:23 AM
Why should that be a priority in terms of ranking the best overall players? It makes no sense to put C. Anthony in place of Durant if KD wins a poll over Dirk, Paul, or Wade, opposed to adding Rose or Bryant. Bryant, Rose (both #2 in their respected position polls) and other notable #2's should be added.

If Durant beats out Paul, Nowitzki or Wade the process you're going for will be contradicted. Lets expand the poll options for #3.

I think you have completly missed the point of what is being done here. There is no flaw what so ever in the system that is being used. Why expand the poll to players that were not even chosen as the best at their position? I am sorry but what you are saying is simply what you think should happe (its an opinion strictly) and there is simply is no justification to support it.

Mile High Champ
09-05-2011, 10:23 AM
Agreed, there is no reason why Rose a guy who led his team to the best record in the league and won league MVP by a blowout should not be in the poll as an option, I could care less if Chris Paul won the PG voting, people voted him simply because if he is healthy he is the best problem is last year he wasn't healthy and you can't use past stuff from years before to say who the best was for the 2010-2011 season and upcoming 2011-2012 season.

No reason to get sour here. Paul was voted ahead of Rose, get used to it. You may not agree but the majority of PSD does..

Chronz
09-05-2011, 10:26 AM
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=644398 - CP3 vs Durant

CP3 beat out Durant however here Durant is beating out CP3


http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273886 - CP3 vs Dwight

CP3 was close as hell to Dwight and now Dwight is blowing out CP3


So if CP3 beat out Rose and Durant in other polls one on one, then that means he should beat out them in this one as well right? But that is not the case, yet you have Durant still in the poll.



http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=625617&highlight=Dwight+Howard+vs+Chris+Paul - Dirk beat out Wade as well one on one but here Wade is taking the cake.


http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=519182&highlight=Dwight+Howard+vs+Chris+Paul - Dwight vs Wade was neck and neck

However here Dwight is blowing him out.

Yeah but those are in the lesser forums, these are MHCs annual polls, they cary more weight imo so who cares about those. Why should a player be voted ahead of a guy he was incapable of beating out before, in these same polls?

Mile High Champ
09-05-2011, 10:33 AM
Yeah but those are in the lesser forums, these are MHCs annual polls, they cary more weight imo so who cares about those. Why should a player be voted ahead of a guy he was incapable of beating out before, in these same polls?

Exactly, it seems to be that the posters most frustrated with the way things are being done are posters that are homers for players not in the poll. Cough "Rose", Cough "Kobe".. People need to stop being so but hurt by this.

Chronz
09-05-2011, 10:33 AM
when the reality is he probably can still be argued top 3-4.
im mostly sure for example that there are like 5 PF on the top 20 3 on top 15 2 top 10.

With your system it will probably be one in the top 10 1 in teh top 15 the rest not even top 20.

It doesn't matter, the reality is that he was voted BEHIND Wade, he cannot possibly be argued until Wade is off the board.

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 10:45 AM
No reason to get sour here. Paul was voted ahead of Rose, get used to it. You may not agree but the majority of PSD does..

Paul was voted ahead of Rose because of past accomplishments not because of last year and going into next season.

Take a look at the MVP voting

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2011.html#mvp

Rose - 113 votes - Share .977
Dwight - 3 votes - Share .531
Lebron - 4 votes - Share .431


It was a slaughter. Now I'm not saying that winning the MVP makes you the best, as I have several guys ahead of Rose, but how often is a MVP voting that lopsided and a guy can't even be voted in the top 5 in the league? That is ridiculous.

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 10:49 AM
It doesn't matter, the reality is that he was voted BEHIND Wade, he cannot possibly be argued until Wade is off the board.

I understand the premise in this case because people would vote for Kobe based on prior accomplishments and not on who was better last year and going into next season. With Rose and CP3 the reverse happened. People voted CP3 because of how good he is when completely healthy and what he did in the past, not necessarily last season.

tredigs
09-05-2011, 11:34 AM
BOTTOM LINE is that these players WERE voted ahead in his poll mere weeks ago (with no ball in between) and the op wants to ensure CONTINUITY. Can you people seriously not grasp this? It's his poll. Stfu about this already.

sixer04fan
09-05-2011, 11:46 AM
The problem is that people voted in the previous polls based on a different criteria. Best PG, for example... People considered CP3 a better pure PG, and that's why some people voted for him over Rose, while those same people may actually consider Rose a better actual overall player. Just because CP3 is a better point guard, and plays the position better, doesn't mean he's actually a better player than Rose.

You see? The logic for the nominations here is seriously flawed and is not going to be an accurate representation of the best players in order.

ragee
09-05-2011, 11:46 AM
Can someone please explain to me why Durant has 10 votes? I really like the kid but he should be behind Paul, Dirk and Kobe...

Mile High Champ
09-05-2011, 11:50 AM
The problem is that people voted in the previous polls based on a different criteria. Best PG, for example... People considered CP3 a better pure PG, and that's why some people voted for him over Rose, while those same people may actually consider Rose a better actual overall player. Just because CP3 is a better point guard, and plays the position better, doesn't mean he's actually a better player than Rose.

You see? The logic for the nominations here is seriously flawed and is not going to be an accurate representation of the best players in order.

This is OPINION, not FACT!

Honestly, some of you are just clueless.. :confused:

Mile High Champ
09-05-2011, 11:52 AM
I understand the premise in this case because people would vote for Kobe based on prior accomplishments and not on who was better last year and going into next season. With Rose and CP3 the reverse happened. People voted CP3 because of how good he is when completely healthy and what he did in the past, not necessarily last season.

This is an opinion of yours and you treat it as if it were fact. Rose was on the better team last year and that helped him win MVP. IF Paul had Rose's teammates, would he of won MVP as well?

People believe Paul to be the best PG in the league. Why can't you just accept that and put your homerism aside...

tcav701
09-05-2011, 12:04 PM
I absolutely love the voting system here. The reason I am no longer on this site is because of constant homerism and this method eliminates that. If Melo, Rose, Kobe were on this poll, they would get votes from their fan boys which is absurd at this point.

Keeping them off the poll forces these homers to vote for who they actually think is the best player.

Oh and the MVP argument is horse ****. MVP does not mean you were the best player in the league. It simply means you were the best player on a team with a top record.

juno10
09-05-2011, 12:13 PM
Paul was voted ahead of Rose because of past accomplishments not because of last year and going into next season.

Take a look at the MVP voting

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2011.html#mvp

Rose - 113 votes - Share .977
Dwight - 3 votes - Share .531
Lebron - 4 votes - Share .431


It was a slaughter. Now I'm not saying that winning the MVP makes you the best, as I have several guys ahead of Rose, but how often is a MVP voting that lopsided and a guy can't even be voted in the top 5 in the league? That is ridiculous.
'
mvp is a media award. if the most ''valuable'' was taken as it should be than dwight would have won by a landslide.

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 12:16 PM
This is an opinion of yours and you treat it as if it were fact. Rose was on the better team last year and that helped him win MVP. IF Paul had Rose's teammates, would he of won MVP as well?

People believe Paul to be the best PG in the league. Why can't you just accept that and put your homerism aside...

Again whether Paul is better or not is not my concern, I'm saying a guy who not only won MVP but ran away with it should be an option as well.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2011.html#mvp

Rose - 113 votes - Share .977
Dwight - 3 votes - Share .531
Lebron - 4 votes - Share .431

Go through history and show me who has dominated a MVP voting like that and not been an option for top 5?

Also if advance stats are what people are saying then that would make MJ better than Magic in 1987 as he led the league in PER, WS and scoring, but I don't consider him better than Magic that year because Magic won league and finals mvp.

But I understand the premise of what you are trying to do.

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 12:20 PM
'
mvp is a media award. if the most ''valuable'' was taken as it should be than dwight would have won by a landslide.

Not as the 4th seed when they were predicted to be 2nd and the Bulls 4th.

Underrated Wade
09-05-2011, 12:31 PM
wadeeee.. look at ma name :)

SteBO
09-05-2011, 12:45 PM
Paul was the best PG in the league(fanvote), so why have posters take the opportunity to vote for Rose ahead of him and ruin the consistency and credibility of these polls? That makes absolutely no sense. None. It's very frustrating for others to come in here and have to deal with the constant homerism. Same applies for the remaining names on top here.

I love what MHC has done with this. You have to have consistency for these polls to hold value guys and I can guarantee that if Rose or Kobe were put up there, one of them could very well be winning this just because there are some people that would rather be Rose/Kobe fanboys as opposed to being fair and consistent.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 12:47 PM
And it's not like precious Kobe can't be in the top 5. If Wade wins 3rd (which he should) then Kobe will be available to win 4th

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 01:08 PM
Paul was the best PG in the league(fanvote), so why have posters take the opportunity to vote for Rose ahead of him and ruin the consistency and credibility of these polls? That makes absolutely no sense. None. It's very frustrating for others to come in here and have to deal with the constant homerism. Same applies for the remaining names on top here.

I love what MHC has done with this. You have to have consistency for these polls to hold value guys and I can guarantee that if Rose or Kobe were put up there, one of them could very well be winning this just because there are some people that would rather be Rose/Kobe fanboys as opposed to being fair and consistent.

I understand but you gotta remember as well the guys for instance who are voting for Dwight now will vote for someone else next so the guy who may be last place now can be first place next as the votes go to them. So no matter how you do it, the poll will always be screwed as posters then vote for the next guy.

Cano4prez
09-05-2011, 01:08 PM
And it's not like precious Kobe can't be in the top 5. If Wade wins 3rd (which he should) then Kobe will be available to win 4th

Which he won't

da ThRONe
09-05-2011, 01:29 PM
Paul was voted ahead of Rose because of past accomplishments not because of last year and going into next season.

Take a look at the MVP voting

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2011.html#mvp

Rose - 113 votes - Share .977
Dwight - 3 votes - Share .531
Lebron - 4 votes - Share .431


It was a slaughter. Now I'm not saying that winning the MVP makes you the best, as I have several guys ahead of Rose, but how often is a MVP voting that lopsided and a guy can't even be voted in the top 5 in the league? That is ridiculous.

Having one great year doesn't make you better. Not taking anything away from Rose. But MVP doesn't mean best player, it means most vaule to a team any given year. Rose fit that last regular season thus he got the award. However as far as PG's go after thinking about it he may very well be third behind Deron Williams.

Hustlenomics
09-05-2011, 01:33 PM
how come Dwight Howard is just now getting respect?

MagicBucsSox
09-05-2011, 01:55 PM
how come Dwight Howard is just now getting respect?

Because psd posters only respect offensive skills, which is why these lames actually voted for Durant. Dude ain't even the clear best player on his own damn team

Redbull
09-05-2011, 01:58 PM
Dwight Howard.

MagicBucsSox
09-05-2011, 01:59 PM
Dwight Howard is amazing defensively and ok offensively. Don't get me wrong but let's be honest, he has the weakest competition out of all the superstars. All other positions have strong competitions or at least much stronger competitions than centers. He's the only elite center in the league where guys like Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Durant, Melo, Rose, CP3, Dirk, Pau etc have to go through harder opponents most nights. It's not a cakewalk for those guys as much as it's for Dwight.
And even though he improved his offensive game last year it's far from being a game-changer. You can't relay on his hands when the game is close in the 4th. Opponents can easily foul him and take him on the line since his FT shooting is bad. He's not a good passer as well (kicking it out to the perimeter when double teamed). Once he becomes better in these aspects he will automatically become the best in the league assuming he continues to dominate the defensive end.

The vote gap between Dwight and Wade is 31. I find it ridiculous. Wade is getting unfair treatment here.

That's simple: Dwyany Wade was never on a relevant team WITHOUT a guy name Shaq or LBJ. He never carried a team nowhere on his back like D12 or LBJ. So wade is no way over Dwight

Cano4prez
09-05-2011, 02:22 PM
That's simple: Dwyany Wade was never on a relevant team WITHOUT a guy name Shaq or LBJ. He never carried a team nowhere on his back like D12 or LBJ. So wade is no way over Dwight

What is this.. I don't even

Kutchie03
09-05-2011, 02:24 PM
Superman.

So Andrew Bynum will be on the poll after this one?

does it even matter? no possible way he would even get a vote from anyone for a spot as a top 20 player in the nba

Kutchie03
09-05-2011, 02:28 PM
That's simple: Dwyany Wade was never on a relevant team WITHOUT a guy name Shaq or LBJ. He never carried a team nowhere on his back like D12 or LBJ. So wade is no way over Dwight

being an amazing basketball player and being able to carry a team are two completely different things. dwight can carry the magic simply because he is so much better than every other center in the league (only because of his size and athleticism, not because of his skill set). wade is by far the better basketball player, he is the second best player in the nba, his skill set and execution are the best among any sg in the league. dwight's skill set would just be average for a center, he's dominant because he's huge.

tredigs
09-05-2011, 02:30 PM
The problem is that people voted in the previous polls based on a different criteria. Best PG, for example... People considered CP3 a better pure PG, and that's why some people voted for him over Rose, wohile those same people may actually consider Rose a better actual overall player. Just because CP3 is a better point guard, and plays the position better, doesn't mean he's actually a better player than Rose.

You see? The logic for the nominations here is seriously flawed and is not going to be an accurate representation of the best players in order.

No clue what you're talking about. I always voted for the best player at each resprctive position. Not "the best pure pg", "best pure SF", etc. I assume most others voted the same way - not sure why you wouldn't. And if that was the case Lebron wouldn't be the top ranked SF, he's far from your "pure" SF.


Now that we've successfully trampled on all misguided contrarian viewpoints here, can we focus on the poll? Maybe?

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 02:55 PM
Having one great year doesn't make you better. Not taking anything away from Rose. But MVP doesn't mean best player, it means most vaule to a team any given year. Rose fit that last regular season thus he got the award. However as far as PG's go after thinking about it he may very well be third behind Deron Williams.

This is my point, basically people are using different criteria here. Some are using past years in the equation while some are only using last year. IMO since there was one done in 2009 and 2010 I don't see why those are included for the 2011 season. 2011 season is for what the players did that season not any season prior.

Cano4prez
09-05-2011, 02:58 PM
This is my point, basically people are using different criteria here. Some are using past years in the equation while some are only using last year. IMO since there was one done in 2009 and 2010 I don't see why those are included for the 2011 season. 2011 season is for what the players did that season not any season prior.

I'd still take Paul just going off last the 2011 season

DR_1
09-05-2011, 03:18 PM
Dirk for me, but I won't have a problem with Dwight winning.

Mile High Champ
09-05-2011, 03:23 PM
This is my point, basically people are using different criteria here. Some are using past years in the equation while some are only using last year. IMO since there was one done in 2009 and 2010 I don't see why those are included for the 2011 season. 2011 season is for what the players did that season not any season prior.

The exact same can be said of your top 50 list you are conducting. Are people voting for who had the better career or the better prime? It is the exact same argument.

naps
09-05-2011, 03:52 PM
That's simple: Dwyany Wade was never on a relevant team WITHOUT a guy name Shaq or LBJ. He never carried a team nowhere on his back like D12 or LBJ. So wade is no way over Dwight

I am not even gonna go through the yearly roster analysis. Only a dumb poster will say this. Every time Wade had a somewhat team he led them as far as any other superstar would and more. I don't even know what you are you talking about here. Basketball is a team sport, I hope you Hawks made you realized that this year. And if you are quoting me, make sure you go through the aspects I explained instead of just mumbling with mere opinions.

naps
09-05-2011, 03:58 PM
MHC, please add Rose and Kobe here in the poll that way their fanboys don't derail this thread. Most of the posts here are complaints why this player is not in the poll, why that players is not on the pol...etc instead of discussing the actual topic.

85BearsDefense
09-05-2011, 04:16 PM
I guess winning the MVP isnt enough to be able to get votes in the top 5....

da ThRONe
09-05-2011, 04:26 PM
This is my point, basically people are using different criteria here. Some are using past years in the equation while some are only using last year. IMO since there was one done in 2009 and 2010 I don't see why those are included for the 2011 season. 2011 season is for what the players did that season not any season prior.

I think the criteria is a simple as it gets. As of today who is the better player.

Bruno
09-05-2011, 04:45 PM
BOTTOM LINE is that these players WERE voted ahead in his poll mere weeks ago (with no ball in between) and the op wants to ensure CONTINUITY. Can you people seriously not grasp this? It's his poll. Stfu about this already.

It doesn't matter if it's his poll. He reports to the PSD poster base, just as all of us do. "Thread ownership" is irrelevant here. Last week JB had the #27 player of all-time poll, and he felt like it shouldn't include a poll. It was "his thread". Posters didn't like it, many requests came in asking for a poll, and on the following thread the poll was returned, and posters were pleased. The exact same thing should be done here; expand the options.

The quest for continuity on a fickle sports forum is a vain pursuit. the fact that this method will eventually contradict itself anyways (if Durant wins before Wade, Paul, or Dirk- this proposed system would include Carmelo before Rose, Bryant or Amare) is another reason why this method is flawed.

The OPs method renders half this thread to be off-topic. Please the public, end the bickering.

JasonJohnHorn
09-05-2011, 04:57 PM
I still don't understand how the guy who placed first the last two years, isn't even on the short list of players.

This poll is bunk without a Kobe option.

Bruno
09-05-2011, 04:57 PM
I think you have completly missed the point of what is being done here. There is no flaw what so ever in the system that is being used. Why expand the poll to players that were not even chosen as the best at their position? I am sorry but what you are saying is simply what you think should happe (its an opinion strictly) and there is simply is no justification to support it.

You're correct that it is my opinion. You are wrong to say there is no justification to support it. The justification is very clear. Your method could very easily contradict itself eventually and your pursuit for continuity could end in vain. Your method sets up a system that would include Carmelo Anthony as an option before Rose or Bryant if Durant gets off the board before Paul or Wade. Explain why that makes sense.

If this is "PSD's official player rankings", polls which represent the poster base here on the forum, then you as an individual shouldn't have such a totalitarian command over the list of options. Look at this thread, half of it isn't even about building arguments for players, your opinion on how this should be done has rendered half this thread to be off-topic. You should appease the public.

Cano4prez
09-05-2011, 04:59 PM
I still don't understand how the guy who placed first the last two years, isn't even on the short list of players.

This poll is bunk without a Kobe option.

Probably because he wasn't deserving of 1st in either of the last two years and he's declining

Bruno
09-05-2011, 05:01 PM
There is no good reason why Kevin Durant (voted at #2) should be included on this list over Rose or Bryant (#2's at their given positions). Just because Durant plays the same position as a player who we voted off, it doesn't make him more eligible than other #2's who posted just as good of numbers during the regular season. How is that representative of a quest for continuity?

Just because a given player is the best at his position, doesn't mean a player who was voted at #2 at another position couldn't be better overall.

That logic applies on down the line.

SteBO
09-05-2011, 05:12 PM
Guys, get to discussing the actual topic at hand. The point of this isn't to whine about the options presented to you, it's to discuss who should be the #2 player in the NBA should be given the choices.

Raph12
09-05-2011, 05:21 PM
Dwight Howard easily... His impact is undeniably higher than any players' league-wide.

Chronz
09-05-2011, 05:22 PM
This is my point, basically people are using different criteria here. Some are using past years in the equation while some are only using last year. IMO since there was one done in 2009 and 2010 I don't see why those are included for the 2011 season. 2011 season is for what the players did that season not any season prior.

Its the same criteria they used for the best PG Poll

TheRunKiller
09-05-2011, 05:25 PM
Dwight Howard

Chronz
09-05-2011, 05:25 PM
I still don't understand how the guy who placed first the last two years, isn't even on the short list of players.

This poll is bunk without a Kobe option.

Why should kobe be an option when he didn't win his position?

Chronz
09-05-2011, 05:39 PM
It doesn't matter if it's his poll. He reports to the PSD poster base, just as all of us do. "Thread ownership" is irrelevant here. Last week JB had the #27 player of all-time poll, and he felt like it shouldn't include a poll. It was "his thread". Posters didn't like it, many requests came in asking for a poll, and on the following thread the poll was returned, and posters were pleased. The exact same thing should be done here; expand the options.
Had JB made a list of the best PG, SG, SF, PF, C, and THEN tried to tie it in altogether it would be comparable. Leaving the chance that an inferior player could go ahead of the guy who we already voted for would rob this list of its meaning.



The quest for continuity on a fickle sports forum is a vain pursuit.
You won't please everyone either.



the fact that this method will eventually contradict itself anyways (if Durant wins before Wade, Paul, or Dirk- this proposed system would include Carmelo before Rose, Bryant or Amare) is another reason why this method is flawed.
Majority would not vote for Melo before Kobe, the risk for contradiction is much greater if you restart the positional votes. Seeing either Rose or Kobe go before the guys they just lost to would render the previous effort pointless.



The OPs method renders half this thread to be off-topic. Please the public, end the bickering.

If the public could come up with a good reason, your accusations of contradiction were baseless.

bholly
09-05-2011, 05:55 PM
It was a slaughter. Now I'm not saying that winning the MVP makes you the best, as I have several guys ahead of Rose, but how often is a MVP voting that lopsided and a guy can't even be voted in the top 5 in the league? That is ridiculous.


Go through history and show me who has dominated a MVP voting like that and not been an option for top 5?

You really don't understand the system, do you? Rose, Kobe, etc CAN be voted in the top 5. Where you're going wrong is that we aren't voting for the top 5 here - we're voting for #2. There is absolutely nothing saying that the current poll options will be the next 5 guys picked. There is nothing saying that Dirk will be ahead of Kobe. All this system does - ALL it does - is ensure that Wade ends up above Kobe, the justification for which is that PSD posters voted him above Kobe. Same for CP3/Rose.

All that needs to happen for Kobe to be top 5 is that Wade goes before him, in order to keep consistency with the positional rankings. As soon as Wade is selected, Kobe will be added to the poll.

For example, if PSD posters think Wade is the best player in the league, followed by Kobe at #2, then Wade and Kobe would be #1/#2 in these results. Wade would be voted in at #1, and then Kobe would be added and voted in at #2. If people think the top 15 players in the league are SGs, then the top 15 spots in this list would end up being SGs. Again, what's the problem?

The only thing the system prevents is Kobe going above Wade. And it should. Because the voters already decided that Wade should be above Kobe, in the SG polls.

All it does is ensure consistency and the independence of irrelevant alternatives in the rankings. It doesn't exclude anyone from any position they shouldn't already be excluded from based on their positional ranking.

I understand sixerfan's criticism that the rankings shouldn't neccessarily be consistent with the positional rankings, because people use different criteria, but I tend to disagree - in both the general and positional rankings the only criteria given is 'best player' - but that's just a difference of opinion, and I respect his here.

You, on the other hand, just seem to misunderstand the system completely.

Bruno
09-05-2011, 05:57 PM
Majority would not vote for Melo before Kobe, the risk for contradiction is much greater if you restart the positional votes. Seeing either Rose or Kobe go before the guys they just lost to would render the previous effort pointless.


Question. If "Kobe and Rose fan-boys" are so likely to vote their player ahead of Paul and Wade, then why didn't they make it happen during the position voting? If they couldn't make it happening during position voting, they won't make it happen here and now. The forum has minimal activity right now, and many "fan boys" aren't on the forum on a regular basis, certainly not enough to skew this poll.

The concern shouldn't be "Rose and Kobe might get voted in before Paul and Wade". The question is, what is the reason for including Durant before Rose or Bryant. Just because LBJ, a SF got voted in first? What happens if Durant gets voted in before Paul or Dirk? Then a player who was voted #1 at this position waits while a #2 goes off the board. That's a contradiction waiting to happen. If this system was contradiction proof I wouldn't have an issue. It is.

Chronz can't you agree that just because a player was ranked #1 at this given position, that another player ranked at #2 at their given position could be just as good as the other guy voted #1 at their position. For example is it not possible that a given position has two players who could both be better than another positions top guy? If you agree, then how can you say this system caters to picking the best overall players, regardless of position.

bholly
09-05-2011, 06:05 PM
Question. If "Kobe and Rose fan-boys" are so likely to vote their player ahead of Paul and Wade, then why didn't they make it happen during the position voting? If they couldn't make it happening during position voting, they won't make it happen here and now. The forum has minimal activity right now, and many "fan boys" aren't on the forum on a regular basis, certainly not enough to skew this poll.

The concern shouldn't be "Rose and Kobe might get voted in before Paul and Wade". The question is, what is the reason for including Durant before Rose or Bryant. Just because LBJ, a SF got voted in first? What happens if Durant gets voted in before Paul or Dirk? Then a player who was voted #1 at this position waits while a #2 goes off the board. That's a contradiction waiting to happen. If this system was contradiction proof I wouldn't have an issue. It is.

Chronz can't you agree that just because a player was ranked #1 at this given position, that another player ranked at #2 at their given position could be just as good as the other guy voted #1 at their position. For example is it not possible that a given position has two players who could both be better than another positions top guy? If you agree, then how can you say this system caters to picking the best overall players, regardless of position.

The system allows for that. For example, the #1 SF has already been picked. If people think the #2 SF, Durant, is better than the #1 SG, Wade, then Durant will be picked before Wade.

This system allows exactly what you want it to allow. It doesn't allow players to 'jump' players in their own position.

I don't know him well enough to speak for him, but I'm pretty sure Chronz agrees.

Speaking of contradictions, your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs are a pretty good example of one.

Bruno
09-05-2011, 06:16 PM
The system allows for that. For example, the #1 SF has already been picked. If people think the #2 SF, Durant, is better than the #1 SG, Wade, then Durant will be picked before Wade.

This system allows exactly what you want it to allow. It doesn't allow players to 'jump' players in their own position.

That's not what I want, or what I was requesting. Go ahead and re-read.

Bruno
09-05-2011, 06:22 PM
Howard is running away with this poll. So since Howard will be off the books, we have to add a center to replace him? Meaning Bynum will be an option on the #3 player poll? That's ridiculous. I don't care if he won't get voted in, he shouldn't even be an option over the MVP.

bholly
09-05-2011, 06:27 PM
That's not what I want, or what I was requesting. Go ahead and re-read.

I've re-read. In your second paragraph you seem to be saying it's a contradiction that a #2 in his position (Durant) might get voted before a #1 (Rose or Dirk). It sounds like you think this is a problem.

In your third paragraph you seem to be arguing that a position could have two players that are better than another position's best player, ie the top two SFs could be better than the best PG, and so they should be ranked better.

Which paragraph am I misunderstanding? They seem to be directly contradictory, so it must be one or the other. I suspect it is the third paragraph, because some of the possessive pronouns are a little ambiguous, but I'm not sure.

Bruno
09-05-2011, 06:40 PM
I've re-read. In your second paragraph you seem to be saying it's a contradiction that a #2 in his position (Durant) might get voted before a #1 (Rose or Dirk). It sounds like you think this is a problem.

No. I don't think that's a problem. But the system that is being used would assume that scenario (Durant getting selected over Dirk and Paul) to be a problem. After all, that's why Durant wasn't included on the #1 poll, so a #2 wouldn't get voted in before #1's (or am i wrong?) It is the system we are using that would find the above to be a problem (a #2 perhaps being better than a selected #1, or a #3 perhaps being better than given #2's).

I don't think it's, I think it's a possibility that a guy who is second at his given position, could be better than another player who was ranked first at his given poisiton. That's my gripe. Just because you're the best at your position, doesn't automatically make you better than a guy who was #2 at his given position. Perhaps position A has greater depth than position B, rendering a #2 to be perhaps just as good as another positions #1.

And I think the fear that Bryant might get selected before Wade (thus ruining continuity) is a baseless one. I'm not going to say it's impossible, or would never happen. But if "Kobe fan boys" could vote Bryant here and now, why didn't they do it during the #1 SG thread?


In your third paragraph you seem to be arguing that a position could have two players that are better than another position's best player, ie the top two SFs could be better than the best PG, and so they should be ranked better.

Right.


Which paragraph am I misunderstanding? They seem to be directly contradictory, so it must be one or the other. I suspect it is the third paragraph, because some of the possessive pronouns are a little ambiguous, but I'm not sure.

Does my opinion make more sense now?

Bruno
09-05-2011, 06:42 PM
I'm de-railing this thread. I'll check out, do as you will.

bholly
09-05-2011, 06:45 PM
Howard is running away with this poll. So since Howard will be off the books, we have to add a center to replace him? Meaning Bynum will be an option on the #3 player poll? That's ridiculous. I don't care if he won't get voted in, he shouldn't even be an option over the MVP.

But the system needs to be robust to every year, not tailored each year to fit the players. You can't just not put the #2 C as an option just because you don't think Bynum deserves it - the electoral system needs to be independent of the options. The fact that he won't get voted in is all that should matter - it doesn't matter if some irrelevant guy is a poll option or not. The system still allows Rose to get ranked way before Bynum, and that's what the result will be.

bholly
09-05-2011, 06:53 PM
Does my opinion make more sense now?

It makes sense in that you've clarified what you misunderstand. So that's good.


No. I don't think that's a problem. But the system that is being used would assume that scenario (Durant getting selected over Dirk and Paul) to be a problem. After all, that's why Durant wasn't included on the #1 poll, so a #2 wouldn't get voted in before #1's (or am i wrong?) It is the system we are using that would find the above to be a problem (a #2 perhaps being better than a selected #1, or a #3 perhaps being better than given #2's).

The system does allow what you're saying it should. It doesn't have a problem with a #2 going over a #1. It doesn't see a problem with Durant going over Dirk and Paul - that's why Durant is in the poll right now and could get voted ahead of #1s.
The reason Durant wasn't in the first poll wasn't to prevent him going ahead of Dirk and Paul, it was to prevent him going ahead of LBJ. It isn't that the #2 SF can't go ahead of a #1, it's that the #2 SF can't go ahead of the #1 SF.

In short, the system sees a problem with the #2 SG going over the #1 SG, and the #2 C going over the #1 C, etc, but it has absolutely no problem with (and completely allows) the #2 SG to go over the #1 C or whatever. It's only within a position that the #1, #2, #3 etc rankings matter.

naps
09-05-2011, 07:07 PM
LOL @ this thread. 80% posts are off-topic.

tcav701
09-05-2011, 07:35 PM
The only person i think is gonna suffer from this voting system in Duncan. Poor guy wont be on the board till around 30-40

5ass
09-05-2011, 07:36 PM
**** the system!

tredigs
09-05-2011, 07:57 PM
Bruno, you are flat out wrong on this one bud. I'm not sure how much clearer myself or the other posters can put it for you to see the VERY logical, VERY appropriate method for this overall ranking (which is meant to be in direct conjunction with the positional lists), but it's starting to annoy me that some of you guys can't grasp this. You especially are better than this.

EG: Kobe lost his right to have his chance to go ahead of Wade based on "The PSD poster base" a couple weeks ago. That does not mean that once Wade goes, Kobe will not then go directly following him (potentially ahead of Paul, KD, etc.).

Also, it's kind of weird that you keep mentioning Durant as the guy who has no right to be there instead of Rose and Kobe. He's better than both of them at this point. Your argument (though still 100% flawed based on everything that has been mentioned) will have a lot more juice behind it once Bynum is on the board next round.

MileHigh, great plan on what you're doing here. It's smart, logical, and 100% fair. Unfortunately, sometimes the masses don't want to accept those three factors when it contradicts their emotions.

As an aside (AKA back to the point of the thread...), the fact that Dwight Howard will go #2 and Bynum won't go in the next 25 is a testament to another reason why I don't find Dwight to be the #2.

ragee
09-05-2011, 08:13 PM
Not as the 4th seed when they were predicted to be 2nd and the Bulls 4th.

It is not his fault they were 4th seed... He did not get any help...

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 09:40 PM
Also, it's kind of weird that you keep mentioning Durant as the guy who has no right to be there instead of Rose and Kobe. He's better than both of them at this point. Your argument (though still 100% flawed based on everything that has been mentioned) will have a lot more juice behind it once Bynum is on the board next round.



No he is not. He has another allstar on his team and still can't get higher than a 4 seed and barely scraped by an 8th seed in the playoffs.

Swashcuff
09-05-2011, 09:41 PM
No he is not. He has another allstar on his team and still can't get higher than a 4 seed and barely scraped by an 8th seed in the playoffs.

Is Carlos Boozer better than Kevin Love JB?

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 09:43 PM
Howard is running away with this poll. So since Howard will be off the books, we have to add a center to replace him? Meaning Bynum will be an option on the #3 player poll? That's ridiculous. I don't care if he won't get voted in, he shouldn't even be an option over the MVP.

Exactly in that case that is when you have to include Rose or someone as well. How can Bynum be an option when he didn't even make the allstar team?

juno10
09-05-2011, 09:45 PM
No he is not. He has another allstar on his team and still can't get higher than a 4 seed and barely scraped by an 8th seed in the playoffs.

fails to mention the griz took out the 1 seed and doesn't play like an 8 seed. also i find it funny that after the 1# poll you stop crusading for dirk mmm i wonder why. your anit-bron pro-rose agenda is ...:eyebrow:

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 09:47 PM
fails to mention the griz took out the 1 seed and doesn't play like an 8 seed. also i find it funny that after the 1# poll you stop crusading for dirk mmm i wonder why. your anit-bron pro-rose agenda is ...:eyebrow:

Who cares if they took out the #1 seed. Denver in 1994 took out the #1 seed as well and Utah struggled to win in 7 in round 2 against them. They are still an 8th seed. What the hell are you talking about in the first place, I still took Dirk here and will continue to do so until he is off the books. No matter what you say he outplayed Lebron in the playoffs and did so with far less talent. Hell his 6th man outplayed Lebron which is pathetic.

juno10
09-05-2011, 09:52 PM
and rose almost got scrapped by a team that wouldn't even make the playoffs in the west even with another allstar on the team:eyebrow:

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 09:55 PM
and rose almost got scrapped by a team that wouldn't even make the playoffs in the west even with another allstar on the team:eyebrow:

Not sure what you are talking about, Rose was the only allstar on his team and Bulls had the best record against the other conference than any other team in the league not to mention none of the first two series of the Bulls even went 7.

RZZZA
09-05-2011, 10:07 PM
lol...this is easy so far. I can't wait till it starts getting around the 5-8 range and Derrick Rose comes up. Epic *****fest on the horizon. I'm staying out of it.

IndiansFan337
09-05-2011, 10:08 PM
Dwyane Wade

beasted86
09-05-2011, 10:10 PM
As an aside (AKA back to the point of the thread...), the fact that Dwight Howard will go #2 and Bynum won't go in the next 25 is a testament to another reason why I don't find Dwight to be the #2.

I don't understand this. Is it not possible to have that large a gap between players at the same position that doesn't diminish the #1 player?

Prime Jordan was the #1 SG in the NBA. Would Reggie, Drexler, Richmond or Dumars be in a top 15 ranking of overall players in say 92-93 right before Jordan retired the first time? I don't think so.

Can't penalize Howard for playing amongst scrubs at Center, or there being better overall players at different positions than the next best Center.

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 10:22 PM
I don't understand this. Is it not possible to have that large a gap between players at the same position that doesn't diminish the #1 player?

Prime Jordan was the #1 SG in the NBA. Would Reggie, Drexler, Richmond or Dumars be in a top 15 ranking of overall players in say 92-93 right before Jordan retired the first time? I don't think so.

Can't penalize Howard for playing amongst scrubs at Center, or there being better overall players at different positions than the next best Center.

You can say Drexler was #2 in 1992 behind MJ overall with him finishing 2nd in MVP voting and getting to the finals as the lead guy. Other guys may have a shot at #2 as well that year such as Malone, Robinson, Hakeem, but you can make a case for Clyde being #2 that year in 1992. 1993 is a different story as Clyde was injured for about 30+ games.

tredigs
09-05-2011, 10:23 PM
I don't understand this. Is it not possible to have that large a gap between players at the same position that doesn't diminish the #1 player?

Prime Jordan was the #1 SG in the NBA. Would Reggie, Drexler, Richmond or Dumars be in a top 15 ranking of overall players in say 92-93 right before Jordan retired the first time? I don't think so.

Can't penalize Howard for playing amongst scrubs at Center, or there being better overall players at different positions than the next best Center.

#1, you're talking about Jordan - not Dwight Howard dude. He's going to have a wide gap between the next best no matter when he played.

#2, hell yeah Drexler would. Dude was incredible in those years. Finished 2nd in the MVP ranking to Jordan in '92 man. And was top ten again in '93. He was putting up 24/7/7 with solid efficiency and leading his teams deep.
Reggie Miller is a HOF caliber shooting guard, so is Richmond and Dumars (two heavily underrated talents, especially Mitch).

These guys are WELL beyond the relative skill level of guys like Bynum or Bogut. I can't even imagine how that's debatable? Beyond that, they're rarely ever healthy.

And again, it's one point of about 4 or 5 that still hang me up when thinking of Dwight as the #2 player in the league. He absolutely has his case, I'm not denying that, but I personally just like Wade or Cp3 in that slot. Complete players who can take over a game when it counts mean a ton to me. Dwight is hugely impactful in certain areas, but very far from complete and I do indeed think he benefits hugely from this depleted era of centers.

Swashcuff
09-05-2011, 10:31 PM
I don't understand this. Is it not possible to have that large a gap between players at the same position that doesn't diminish the #1 player?

Prime Jordan was the #1 SG in the NBA. Would Reggie, Drexler, or Dumars be in a top 15 ranking of overall players in say 92-93 right before Jordan retired the first time? I don't think so.

Can't penalize Howard for playing amongst scrubs at Center.

I don't agree that Dwight shouldn't be #2 because of it but I do agree that it hurts him a bit. When an effective ploy of matching up with you is giving Jason Williams the bulk of the work against you and that tactic works I think that speaks to the fact that had Dwight had more competition at the C this may not have been as unanimous as #2 as we may think.

It's no secret that Dwight has a tough time against bigger skilled Cs as he isn't the greatest individual defender out there. Also when matched up against skilled, strong and physical defensive Cs (as evident with Perk among others) he doesn't see his way very well on offense.

IMO it's an understandable reason.

beasted86
09-05-2011, 10:45 PM
#1, you're talking about Jordan - not Dwight Howard dude. He's going to have a wide gap between the next best no matter when he played.

#2, hell yeah Drexler would. Dude was incredible in those years. Finished 2nd in the MVP ranking to Jordan in '92 man. And was top ten again in '93.
Reggie Miller is a HOF caliber shooting guard, so is Richmond and Dumars (two heavily underrated talents, especially Mitch).

The point wasn't to compare the talent of Jordan and Howard or the talent pool of all players in 92-93 to players last season in 10-11. The point was only to compare talent at the same position and how the #2 guy at a position ranks amongst all NBA players.

Just looking it up... Drexler didn't even crack 20 a game and did it on 42% FG, 23% 3PT in 92-93. Miller, Richmond, and Dumars probably weren't top 15 at the time in the whole NBA. Just off the top of my head, players that were surely better than them at the time: Jordan & Pippen, Barkley, Malone & Stockton, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Dominique, Shaq (yes, rookie Shaq). Now that's just 10 easy ones I rattled off that are for sure without a doubt better. There are more debatables after just these 10 players. So it is possible they weren't top 15.

But like I said, I was only trying to illustrate just because the #2 players at a position doesn't rank good in the whole NBA doesn't diminish the #1 player at a position.

These guys are WELL beyond the relative skill level of guys like Bynum or Bogut. I can't even imagine how that's debatable? Beyond that, they're rarely ever healthy.

And again, it's one point of about 4 or 5 that still hang me up when thinking of Dwight as the #2 player in the league. He absolutely has his case, I'm not denying that, but I personally just like Wade or Cp3 in that slot. Complete players who can take over a game when it counts mean a ton to me. Dwight is hugely impactful in certain areas, but very far from complete and I do indeed think he benefits hugely from this depleted era of centers.

I see your point. I thought it over and decided that the overall impact on the game is what warranted the #2... you obviously look at it more as a #1 scoring option and/or ability to carry a team.

tredigs
09-05-2011, 11:12 PM
The point wasn't to compare the talent of Jordan and Howard or the talent pool of all players in 92-93 to players last season in 10-11. The point was only to compare talent at the same position and how the #2 guy at a position ranks amongst all NBA players.

Just looking it up... Drexler didn't even crack 20 a game and did it on 42% FG, 23% 3PT in 92-93. Miller, Richmond, and Dumars probably weren't top 15 at the time in the whole NBA. Just off the top of my head, players that were surely better than them at the time: Jordan & Pippen, Barkley, Malone & Stockton, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Dominique, Shaq (yes, rookie Shaq). Now that's just 10 easy ones I rattled off that are for sure without a doubt better. There are more debatables after just these 10 players. So it is possible they weren't top 15.

But like I said, I was only trying to illustrate just because the #2 players at a position doesn't rank good in the whole NBA doesn't diminish the #1 player at a position.


I see your point. I thought it over and decided that the overall impact on the game is what warranted the #2... you obviously look at it more as a #1 scoring option and/or ability to carry a team.

You mention "he failed to crack 20 and did it on 42.9% shooting in 92-93" as the crux of your argument in comparing the SG's of MJ's era to the centers of now. Arguments like this annoy me.

The truth behind your spin is that he averaged 19.9 that year (along with 6 boards & assists) on 42.9% shooting. AKA 20/6/6 on 43% - and this was THE lowest his FG% was in his entire career. Never mind that it directly followed the season he was #2 in MVP voting and took Jordan's Bulls to 6 in the NBA Finals while having a hell of a series. Don't nit-pick random stats/years just to fit your argument dude.

What I value is not just scoring, but complete players. Guys that can take the team on their back and control the entire tempo of the game while scoring, facilitating, stepping up defensively or all of the above.

The fact that Dwight can't pass, can't shoot (a big reason he gets away with this aspect is the weakness of the center, and I AM a proponent of the "whatever it takes to get it done" mantra, but it definitely bears mentioning), is massively turnover prone (worst assist/TO ratio in the NBA) and frankly just shows a weak mindstate too often; shows up in his constant whining to the refs (despite admitting himself that he makes too many unnecessary frustration fouls) and subsequent league leading techs (some more harmful than others).

When I think of dominant bigs who were in the argument for #1 or 2 player in the NBA in the past decade or two, I think of guys like Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Olajuwon, etc.

And it probably doesn't hurt that at their best, Chris Paul is a top 3 point guard I've ever seen play, and Wade a top 2 or 3 SG I've ever seen play (I think you can argue that their prime seasons are both top 3 ever - and I think they're both capable of prime play in any given series - as proven by this past post-season). I can't say the same for Dwight, I just don't see him as a talent on either of their levels; though Dwight IS a beast and deserves his respect.

SteBO
09-05-2011, 11:19 PM
You mention "he failed to crack 20 and did it on 42.9% shooting in 92-93" as the crux of your argument in comparing the SG's of MJ's era to the centers of now. Arguments like this annoy me.

The truth behind your spin is that he averaged 19.9 that year (along with 6 boards & assists) on 42.9% shooting. AKA 20/6/6 on 43% - and this was THE lowest his FG% was in his entire career. Never mind that it directly followed the season he was #2 in MVP voting and took Jordan's Bulls to 6 in the NBA Finals while having a hell of a series. Don't nit-pick random stats/years just to fit your argument dude.

What I value is not just scoring, but complete players. Guys that can take the team on their back and control the entire tempo of the game while scoring, facilitating, stepping up defensively or all of the above.

The fact that Dwight can't pass, can't shoot (a big reason he gets away with this aspect is the weakness of the center, and I AM a proponent of the "whatever it takes to get it done" mantra, but it definitely bears mentioning), is massively turnover prone (worst assist/TO ratio in the NBA) and frankly just shows a weak mindstate too often; shows up in his constant whining to the refs (despite admitting himself that he makes too many unnecessary frustration fouls) and subsequent league leading techs (some more harmful than others).

When I think of dominant bigs who were in the argument for #1 or 2 player in the NBA in the past decade or two, I think of guys like Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Olajuwon, etc.

And it probably doesn't hurt that at their best, Chris Paul is a top 3 point guard I've ever seen play, and Wade a top 2 or 3 SG I've ever seen play (I think you can argue that their prime seasons are both top 3 ever - and I think they're both capable of prime play in any given series - as proven by this past post-season). I can't say the same for Dwight, I just don't see him as a talent on either of their levels; though Dwight IS a beast and deserves his respect.
This is a very good post. So good, that I find it very difficult to disagree with anything here. I will say though that I don't think it's fair to knock him because of the lack of competition he has at that position. I mean, you said it yourself that the drop-off from Howard to Bynum is laughable. Still, it doesn't discount the fact that he can dominate a game offensively and defensively in the same breath. I guess I don't buy into "weak mindets", and "techs" as much as others. I just look at numbers and impact and to an extent, postseason success. Can't knock him for losing in Round 1 when the rest of his support was utter crap.

Chronz
09-05-2011, 11:27 PM
Question. If "Kobe and Rose fan-boys" are so likely to vote their player ahead of Paul and Wade, then why didn't they make it happen during the position voting?
Because of the nature of voting for a player at a specific position. The fanboys have more power when the voting is spread out, had CP3 been competing for a slot against players superior to Rose then several votes would have been stolen from him and dispersed with the other top players, allowing the fanboys votes to count for more.


If they couldn't make it happening during position voting, they won't make it happen here and now.
This doesnt make sense to me, positional voting shortens the list of quality competitors.


The forum has minimal activity right now, and many "fan boys" aren't on the forum on a regular basis, certainly not enough to skew this poll.
Your probably right, but Id rather the list make sense and keep the chances for contradiction slim.


The concern shouldn't be "Rose and Kobe might get voted in before Paul and Wade". The question is, what is the reason for including Durant before Rose or Bryant. Just because LBJ, a SF got voted in first? What happens if Durant gets voted in before Paul or Dirk? Then a player who was voted #1 at this position waits while a #2 goes off the board. That's a contradiction waiting to happen. If this system was contradiction proof I wouldn't have an issue. It is.
Thats not what a contradiction is, look at real life. If Bynum is the 2nd best center, hes obviously not superior to any of the top 5 PG's. Just because Durant is the 2nd best SF doesnt mean hes not the 2nd best player in the league, it could be a possibility.

What makes sense is, why should Rose or Kobe be represented when they couldnt win their own positional ranking? They should not be represented if the superior player is still on the board.



Chronz can't you agree that just because a player was ranked #1 at this given position, that another player ranked at #2 at their given position could be just as good as the other guy voted #1 at their position.
Its impossible for the #2 SG to be eligible for the __# Overal if the #1 SG is still on board.


For example is it not possible that a given position has two players who could both be better than another positions top guy? If you agree, then how can you say this system caters to picking the best overall players, regardless of position.

Because it works systematically in direct correlation with the prior votes. Kobe/Rose will be options as soon as the players they were voting behind are left of the board. Any argument you could make for the #2 SG would be even stronger for the guy voted ahead of him. Hes the better player.

Remember we are voting for 1 slot at a time, there is no argument to be made for players who are behind the guy who already beat him, so why complain about something that holds no relevance? Just hurt feelings

Chronz
09-05-2011, 11:34 PM
Exactly in that case that is when you have to include Rose or someone as well. How can Bynum be an option when he didn't even make the allstar team?
Your not grasping the situation clearly, Bynum is basically a place holder, no one is going to vote for him, Rose and PLENTY of players will be voted ahead of Bynum. The system doesnt prevent any of the superior players from going ahead of him. What it does is ensure inferior players stay where they should.

THATS WHAT WE SHOULD WANT. CONSISTENCY

Chronz
09-05-2011, 11:35 PM
Who cares if they took out the #1 seed. Denver in 1994 took out the #1 seed as well and Utah struggled to win in 7 in round 2 against them. They are still an 8th seed. What the hell are you talking about in the first place, I still took Dirk here and will continue to do so until he is off the books. No matter what you say he outplayed Lebron in the playoffs and did so with far less talent. Hell his 6th man outplayed Lebron which is pathetic.

Actually you just discredited your own logic, if their 6thman outplayed him in the same series your crediting Dirk, does that mean you will also vote for Jason Terry ahead of Bron? Or will you admit your logic is trashed

Ebbs
09-05-2011, 11:38 PM
I don't mind the system but all the positions get shadier after #1. So when Paul goes you need to add Deron + Rose as there is a controversy of whose better. at Center you will need to add Bynum + Bogut/Horford

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 11:48 PM
Actually you just discredited your own logic, if their 6thman outplayed him in the same series your crediting Dirk, does that mean you will also vote for Jason Terry ahead of Bron? Or will you admit your logic is trashed

No it means you don't get voted #1 when you getting outplayed by guys coming off the bench.

bholly
09-06-2011, 12:12 AM
I don't mind the system but all the positions get shadier after #1. So when Paul goes you need to add Deron + Rose as there is a controversy of whose better. at Center you will need to add Bynum + Bogut/Horford

The idea is that that controversy was solved, at least for these purposes, by the positional votes. We all know that polls like this aren't definitive and don't really mean anything, and that coming out a place ahead doesn't mean you're clearly better in real life - but for the purpose of this series of polls, for this offseason's milehigh rankings, the PSD posters voted and decided Rose was better than Deron. For that reason, it should be ensured that Rose ranks higher overall, which this system does.
In other words, Deron + Rose were added at the same time, as you suggest, and so were CP3 and a bunch of other guys...it was just in the positional poll that that part of the controversy was determined. Now that that part of the ranking process is done, we're combining those positional rankings to get an overall ranking.

Baller1
09-06-2011, 02:01 AM
Wade is still the second best player in the league.

Chronz
09-06-2011, 02:21 AM
No it means you don't get voted #1 when you getting outplayed by guys coming off the bench.
You didnt answer the question, so your voting for Jason Terry before Bron?

Baller1
09-06-2011, 02:46 AM
Exactly in that case that is when you have to include Rose or someone as well. How can Bynum be an option when he didn't even make the allstar team?

Just because Bynum is on the list, doesn't mean he'll get voted as a top player. Other players will fall off the board as Bynum's position on the poll serves as a plug so that no other centers can be voted in due to bias.

I'm astounded that some of you people can't comprehend what MHC is doing here. So frustrating.

naps
09-06-2011, 06:20 AM
Wade is still the second best player in the league.

Too bad he's a teammate of LeBron. PSD will never vote top 2 players from the same team, and if that's about Miami Heat..well....
Dwyane Wade is catching unnecessary fire here. There is a reason why I think Kobe, Rose, and Melo should have been in the poll. Wade wouldn't get as much hate and would certainly be voted as the 2nd best. PSD's top three/four nba fanbases (not all the fans but 99%) aren't intentionally voting for Wade here.

avon_barksdale
09-06-2011, 10:19 AM
Mamba

JordansBulls
09-06-2011, 10:44 AM
Too bad he's a teammate of LeBron. PSD will never vote top 2 players from the same team, and if that's about Miami Heat..well....
Dwyane Wade is catching unnecessary fire here. There is a reason why I think Kobe, Rose, and Melo should have been in the poll. Wade wouldn't get as much hate and would certainly be voted as the 2nd best. PSD's top three/four nba fanbases (not all the fans but 99%) aren't intentionally voting for Wade here.

Well Wade is better than Lebron and Wade is my favorite player.

beasted86
09-06-2011, 10:45 AM
You mention "he failed to crack 20 and did it on 42.9% shooting in 92-93" as the crux of your argument in comparing the SG's of MJ's era to the centers of now. Arguments like this annoy me.

Dude, that season is one of the primary reasons Portland started to think "rebuild mode" and traded him after the next season. Drexler's days as an elite top 10 players were easily over. Doesn't matter if his assist and rebound numbers were still decent, he was no longer a #1 option franchise player. He led the Blazers to 2 consecutive first round knock outs in 92-93 then 93-94. That 93 year surely Reggie, Dumars, and Richmond were all better players. Sure 91 is when Drexler led the Blazers to the Finals, but 91 he was a beast, then 92 and 93 he fell off dramatically. Just look at the stats.

Anyway, back on topic.


When I think of dominant bigs who were in the argument for #1 or 2 player in the NBA in the past decade or two, I think of guys like Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Olajuwon, etc.

And it probably doesn't hurt that at their best, Chris Paul is a top 3 point guard I've ever seen play, and Wade a top 2 or 3 SG I've ever seen play (I think you can argue that their prime seasons are both top 3 ever - and I think they're both capable of prime play in any given series - as proven by this past post-season). I can't say the same for Dwight, I just don't see him as a talent on either of their levels; though Dwight IS a beast and deserves his respect.
At best it's debatable. It's not as clear and dry cut as you are trying to make it seem. At the end of the day Paul led his team to a first round knock out despite unreal stats, and Wade's 09-10 playoff stats were probably better than his Finals numbers, but he also only got the Heat a first round KO.

Howard just averaged 27 PPG, 15.5 REB, and 1.8 BLK on 63% shooting in his first round knock out. Let's not make it seem like he wasn't dominating. His teammates just didn't contribute enough, just like Paul & Wade in their similar situations.

But like I said, it is debatable and I see your point.

juno10
09-06-2011, 02:21 PM
Who cares if they took out the #1 seed. Denver in 1994 took out the #1 seed as well and Utah struggled to win in 7 in round 2 against them. They are still an 8th seed. What the hell are you talking about in the first place, I still took Dirk here and will continue to do so until he is off the books. No matter what you say he outplayed Lebron in the playoffs and did so with far less talent. Hell his 6th man outplayed Lebron which is pathetic.

well, in the 1# poll thread most of your posts were centered around why dirk should be #1 over bron, but now that lebron is now longer available you stopped your dirk crusade sure you still voted for him but now your posts in this thread are more focused on your rose agenda, why aren't you arguing dirk over diwght? jus sayin.

JordansBulls
09-06-2011, 02:24 PM
well, in the 1# poll thread most of your posts were centered around why dirk should be #1 over bron, but now that lebron is now longer available you stopped your dirk crusade sure you still voted for him but now your posts in this thread are more focused on your rose agenda, why aren't you arguing dirk over diwght? jus sayin.

Maybe because it is obvious that Dirk was better than Dwight last year. Dwight lost in round 1 with HCA to a team that won 44 games. Not much to argue about in that especially when every single analyst picked Dwight and company to beat Atlanta. Also by the time I got to the thread Dwight had like 40 votes to Dirk's 2 so I knew he had no shot to win.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649553

What I want to know is how Dirk has 11 votes for the #1 spot and now only 6 for the #2 spot.

SteBO
09-06-2011, 03:39 PM
Maybe because it is obvious that Dirk was better than Dwight last year. Dwight lost in round 1 with HCA to a team that won 44 games. Not much to argue about in that especially when every single analyst picked Dwight and company to beat Atlanta. Also by the time I got to the thread Dwight had like 40 votes to Dirk's 2 so I knew he had no shot to win.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649553

What I want to know is how Dirk has 11 votes for the #1 spot and now only 6 for the #2 spot.
Have you looked up the stats for Dwights' teammates(advanced and basic)? They were laughable at best. He had absolutely no help. Just because Dirk got farther doesn't mean he's a better player. There's a huge difference that you have to come to grips with.

JordansBulls
09-06-2011, 03:44 PM
Have you looked up the stats for Dwights' teammates(advanced and basic)? They were laughable at best. He had absolutely no help. Just because Dirk got farther doesn't mean he's a better player. There's a huge difference that you have to come to grips with.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/hawks-magic


He had a guy who scored 27 points in game 1 when they lost HCA and he missed 8 free throws.

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=310416019

Not to mention he scord 8 points one game and they won by 25.