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OlivaThor
09-04-2011, 06:00 PM
4 games, 17 minutes per game, 2.2 ppg, 1.5 apg with Gasols and so many good players on the roster.. This is the guy, who saves the TWolves?

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 06:19 PM
different rules, different game... His NBA career has nothing to do with how he plays in Europe.
Also hopefully he doesn't get ruined like Pekovic. Peko looks x100 worse than when we send him to the NBA 12 months ago :/

RZZZA
09-04-2011, 06:20 PM
Rubio will be good in the NBA imo, give him time. That spain team is stacked...you can tell because Rubio only plays 17 minutes.

tredigs
09-04-2011, 06:23 PM
4 games, 17 minutes per game, 2.2 ppg, 1.5 apg with Gasols and so many good players on the roster.. This is the guy, who saves the TWolves?

Add in 39% shooting and that's pretty much his career numbers. Fun player, but hype and expectations far outweigh the reality with Rubio. I don't even think he's a starter over there, is he?

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 06:30 PM
Add in 39% shooting and that's pretty much his career numbers. Fun player, but hype and expectations far outweigh the reality with Rubio. I don't even think he's a starter over there, is he?

there's no such thing as a "starter" in European basketball. Rubio can start games but Calderon remains the main playmaker. And you can see both of them on at the same time too, teams play with 3 guards far too often these days.

Sly Guy
09-04-2011, 06:30 PM
different rules, different game... His NBA career has nothing to do with how he plays in Europe.
Also hopefully he doesn't get ruined like Pekovic. Peko looks x100 worse than when we send him to the NBA 12 months ago :/

I'm not saying rubio won't be good, but your reasoning is flawed. 'different rules, different game' doesn't apply to rubio because the european/international game is all he knows in his playing career to this point. If anything, the transition to the NBA should be harder because his game is best suited to the international one.

There's seriously too much hype surrounding this kid, and with very little tangible evidence to support it.

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 06:33 PM
His game is not suited for "international" play ;) If it was, he'd be playing 25 minutes a game, with 15 ppg and 7 apg at least

tredigs
09-04-2011, 06:35 PM
The biggest impression he made on me to this point was watching Steph Curry own him in the FIBA World's. Rubio did get the best of D. Rose for a minute there though.

High energy defender, but he seems to gamble a ton. That's going to suck for Minny with Beasley and Love shoring up the defensive help.

OlivaThor
09-04-2011, 06:37 PM
NYKalltheway sorry, but yours arguments are terrible, you didnt say anythin based on stats

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 06:37 PM
Rubio will be good in the NBA imo, give him time. That spain team is stacked...you can tell because Rubio only plays 17 minutes.

You won't find many teams that use less than 11 players per game, with more than 8 minutes at least.
Pau Gasol plays 25 minutes per game
Rudy Fernandez plays 22 minutes per game
Marc Gasol plays 26 minutes per game
Serge Ibaka plays 15 minutes per game
Juan Navarro plays 25 minutes per game
Fernando San Emeterio plays 11 minutes per game
Felipe Reyes plays 11 minutes per game

And it's a 40 minute game. Rarely you'll see teams use their guys for more than 28 minutes per game. It's a different game than the one the Americans are accustomed to. European basketball used to be the same as the NBA with "starters" and people playing 35-40 minutes (out of 40) or until they fouled out but this has stopped in the late 90s-early 2000s. It's an almost perfect team sport atm

YoungOne
09-04-2011, 06:43 PM
watch games and not stats

OlivaThor
09-04-2011, 06:43 PM
17 minutes per game is solid and 2.2+ 1.5 is really bad for guy, who should be leader of the team and match guys like Deron, Paul, Rose..

tredigs
09-04-2011, 06:45 PM
You won't find many teams that use less than 11 players per game, with more than 8 minutes at least.
Pau Gasol plays 25 minutes per game
Rudy Fernandez plays 22 minutes per game
Marc Gasol plays 26 minutes per game
Serge Ibaka plays 15 minutes per game
Juan Navarro plays 25 minutes per game
Fernando San Emeterio plays 11 minutes per game
Felipe Reyes plays 11 minutes per game

And it's a 40 minute game. Rarely you'll see teams use their guys for more than 28 minutes per game. It's a different game than the one the Americans are accustomed to. European basketball used to be the same as the NBA with "starters" and people playing 35-40 minutes (out of 40) or until they fouled out but this has stopped in the late 90s-early 2000s. It's an almost perfect team sport atm

Call me old fashioned, but I'd rather have my upper-echelon players in fantastic shape and playing at least 30 minutes a game. That is not a lot of time what-so-ever. Creates synergy and cohesiveness among your team and keeps your teams best talent on the floor. There's no scenario I can think of where Brendan Haywood taking away a third of Dirk's minutes is a good thing...

Really an interesting way to manage the game.

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 06:48 PM
Call me old fashioned, but I'd rather have my upper-echelon players in fantastic shape and playing at least 30 minutes a game. That is not a lot of time what-so-ever. Creates synergy and cohesiveness among your team and keeps your teams best talent on the floor. There's no scenario I can think of where Brendan Haywood taking away a third of Dirk's minutes is a good thing...

Really an interesting way to manage the game.

Well, you're right. Difference is you're not talking Dirk vs Haywood here :D

This is what changed in Europe too. You had superstars that couldn't possibly be benched for the "Haywoods" of the world.

You're talking about a team with 3 Al Horfords*, 7 Wilson Chandlers* and 2 Derek Fishers*... You're gonna rotate them and use 1245141452 different schemes, won't you?
*where player name = calibre not same player or same position of course!

tredigs
09-04-2011, 06:50 PM
I heard these games are broadcast online for free/legit - anybody have the site? Is it just Eurobasket.com's? I didn't see a link to any games on first glance.

beasted86
09-04-2011, 06:50 PM
Isn't that similar to Brandon Jennings' statline in Europe?

You can never tell with these things, doesn't mean much.

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 06:52 PM
espn360.com should do for the people in the USA.. don't use it personally. I either watch from tv or use bet365.com live streaming (free as well, but you need an account with money there)

tredigs
09-04-2011, 06:54 PM
espn360.com should do for the people in the USA.. don't use it personally. I either watch from tv or use bet365.com live streaming (free as well, but you need an account with money there)

Nice, good calls. Thank you.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-04-2011, 08:33 PM
The man plays SF for them.

Let him play PG and let's see how he does.

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 10:47 PM
op should go check jennings euro stats.

or paus euro stats last year he played for barcelona.

OlivaThor
09-05-2011, 02:37 PM
Today 0 pts, 1 ast, 4 reb, 1 to in 11 minutes, Spain lost to Turkey, Kanter 2+1

Hellcrooner
09-05-2011, 02:47 PM
^ pau gasol couldnt play today.

S.J.Basketball
09-06-2011, 07:29 AM
Isn't that similar to Brandon Jennings' statline in Europe?

You can never tell with these things, doesn't mean much.

Jennings blows so hard he makes Jenna Jameson look like an amateur in the fellatio department. I'm patting myself on the back for that one.

millerandco
09-06-2011, 08:08 AM
to watch all the games go to: http://www.sportlemon.tv/c-6.html

rubio will play well in the NBA imo. the euro league and nba is completely different. they play a team game whereas in the nba rubio will be killing it in screen and rolls

Tom Stone
09-06-2011, 08:57 AM
Rubio has speed ,size, and a feel for the pass....In a nba where you have few pass first point gaurds, I think he will be good.....and his D is pretty good....The one thing he must improve on is his Nba range.....If he becomes a great shooter, skys the limit.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2011, 09:15 AM
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/09/02/dont-read-too-much-into-rubios-struggles/

good article on it. Rubio strengths are never used. The rare opportunities where he can run and lead the break, he shows why he will be just fine in the wide open, fast paced NBA.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2011, 09:17 AM
The good news is this: When Spain has gotten out in transition, Rubio’s passing has been as advertised. He can toss pinpoint 75-foot outlet passes and run an effective 3-on-2. And when the half-court sets described above don’t produce a good look at first, the ball often ends up back in Rubio’s hands, and it is in those situations where you can see Rubio’s vision and skill. He’ll toss a skip pass a beat before the average point guard would be ready to throw it, and he’s already quite good at driving into the lane, drawing defenders and finding guys at unpredictable angles. If a simple drop-off pass to a guy near the rim isn’t available, Rubio is really good at hitting targets directly behind him on the perimeter or at diagonal angles that aren’t obvious, even to viewers watching on TV.

This stuff is there. It’s just not a major part of Spain’s offense in this tournament, at least not yet. Rubio (and Jose Calderon, the starter) can only run the plays Spain’s coaching staff calls, and those plays don’t lean on Rubio as a featured player. Things would probably be different if Rubio were a better shooter or finisher, so this is not a “blame the coaches!” thing. Rubio isn’t as good yet as the hype, but he’s better than his EuroBasket numbers would suggest.


small portion of the article.

wjmoffatt
09-06-2011, 09:17 AM
Call me old fashioned, but I'd rather have my upper-echelon players in fantastic shape and playing at least 30 minutes a game. That is not a lot of time what-so-ever. Creates synergy and cohesiveness among your team and keeps your teams best talent on the floor. There's no scenario I can think of where Brendan Haywood taking away a third of Dirk's minutes is a good thing...

Really an interesting way to manage the game.

That's a horrible and unfair assessment you made. Dallas Mavs and the Spain basketball team are no where near the same. You could compare and East or West all star team to them, everyone on the bench has just as much talent and game as the guys on the floor. So to keep rotating and killing the opposing players legs is a lot better than killing your own players.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2011, 09:23 AM
I don't think you will find too many Wolves fans, or fans in general, who think he will save the franchise. It is Kevin Love's team, and will remain that way. Rubio is simply a huge piece, that can help the team big time with its desire to run, run, run, and he is a better defender than many give him credit for.

I don't think there is a better rebounder/outlet passer on the planet than Kevin Love, and in the wide open NBA, Rubio will look a lot better on paper, and in reality.

As a Wolves fan, I am hoping for his outstanding +/- contributions to help quite a bit (his teams are usually better with him on the floor), and hopefully a 8/8/2 rookie year. He will turn the ball over at a good rate early, but he will also rack up a ton of assists and steals right away. The Wolves coaching staff will break his shot down and build it back up, so he will remain a poor shooter for at least a year or two. But hell, isn't Rondo, and wasn't Kidd, a terrible shooter?

a_dub06
09-06-2011, 11:51 AM
It could be just me that has this view, but the reason I think the style of play between the Euro leagues and NBA is so different has to do with the talent level of players due to globalization.

If we look from the standpoint of the NBA draft, it wasn't until the late 70's and early 80's that internationals were even considered. The first "international" NBA player was Mychal Thompson in 1978 from the Bahamas and then the giant shot blocking 3pt shooting Manute Bol out of the Sudan in 1983 *(Just to clarify by international I mean born outside the US). The most logical reasoning behind this would be the limitation of scouting caused by the lack of technology and availability of commercial airlines, which even in today's world scouts seem to struggle to effectively evaluate players outside the US. The difficulties involved for scouts from 1946-80's meant that pretty much any player outside the US was left to play in their national leagues regardless of skill, resulting in a higher range of talent.

So with globalization comes all the technologies and mediums used today for scouting, making it incredibly easy to explore players outside of the US and stupid if NBA teams don't. As seen with players of the caliber of Dirk, Duncan, Nash, Yao, both Gasol's, Ginobli....etc international players have a great deal to offer. Just to state the obvious, regardless of which country your from if your good enough to play in the NBA you go to the NBA. Why would you deprive yourself of greater international exposure, marketing/endorsement deals and the "Hollywood lifestyle"? The simple answer, nobody would. This results in a substantial drop in the range of talent in international leagues such as the Euroleague as almost every top international prospect dreams of playing in the NBA.

As people have previously stated the Euroleague style of play used to practically mirror that of the NBA whereas nowadays the style is extremely team focused. This I believe as stated in the opening paragraph is due to the reduction in the RANGE of talent, making the team approach more effective leading to more wins. Think of this from a statistics point of view, if you have 2 boxplots one from 1958-1980 and the other from 1980-2011, the first boxplot would have a much greater range as the highly talented players were stuck in Europe whereas the second boxplot would have a much lower range as the talent has largely fled to the NBA. This coincides with the style of play in the Euroleagues from 1958-1980 as there would have been the standout elite Euroleague players still playing there which had a skill set of a much higher level then the median players making Isolation the key strategy to score. This notion also coincides with the style of play in the Euroleagues from 1980-2011 as the elite players would leave for colleges in the US or for the NBA, resulting in a significant drop in the range of talent meaning that the discrepancy between the highest skilled players and the median players a great deal less which in turn would make team play the most effective because a team that plays to improve each other slightly individually would do better then a team with aims to largely improve only 1 player.

Another way of looking at it would be if we were to consider how the current NBA style of play would change if we were to remove all fringe all-star players and above. The ending result would more then likely mirror that of the Euroleagues. Obviously even with the diminished talent of the league there would still be "good players", it doesn't take a genius to know isolating a player such as Marvin Williams is far less effective then isolating Kobe Bryant.

Sorry for the essay and I understand if it too much reading. I just can't stand the ignorance of people that say the differences in the leagues style of play doesn't affect the way a player performs. I really don't think you can compare players stats from the two leagues and that a scouts ability to evaluate how a player will play in the NBA is heavily limited. Looking at NBA history with all the international draft busts, Id dare say my opinion is supported. Something which everyone has to agree on though is that every elite NBA player would still heavily succeed in the Euroleague. The irony in this notion though is that you cant tell me that if Kobe went to the Euroleague, the team that acquired him wouldn't just isolate him almost every single time down the floor changing their style of play... I guess Deron Williams will be the example

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 11:59 AM
It could be just me that has this view, but the reason I think the style of play between the Euro leagues and NBA is so different has to do with the talent level of players due to globalization.

If we look from the standpoint of the NBA draft, it wasn't until the late 70's and early 80's that internationals were even considered. The first "international" NBA player was Mychal Thompson in 1978 from the Bahamas and then the giant shot blocking 3pt shooting Manute Bol out of the Sudan in 1983 *(Just to clarify by international I mean born outside the US). The most logical reasoning behind this would be the limitation of scouting caused by the lack of technology and availability of commercial airlines, which even in today's world scouts seem to struggle to effectively evaluate players outside the US. The difficulties involved for scouts from 1946-80's meant that pretty much any player outside the US was left to play in their national leagues regardless of skill, resulting in a higher range of talent.

So with globalization comes all the technologies and mediums used today for scouting, making it incredibly easy to explore players outside of the US and stupid if NBA teams don't. As seen with players of the caliber of Dirk, Duncan, Nash, Yao, both Gasol's, Ginobli....etc international players have a great deal to offer. Just to state the obvious, regardless of which country your from if your good enough to play in the NBA you go to the NBA. Why would you deprive yourself of greater international exposure, marketing/endorsement deals and the "Hollywood lifestyle"? The simple answer, nobody would. This results in a substantial drop in the range of talent in international leagues such as the Euroleague as almost every top international prospect dreams of playing in the NBA.

As people have previously stated the Euroleague style of play used to practically mirror that of the NBA whereas nowadays the style is extremely team focused. This I believe as stated in the opening paragraph is due to the reduction in the RANGE of talent, making the team approach more effective leading to more wins. Think of this from a statistics point of view, if you have 2 boxplots one from 1958-1980 and the other from 1980-2011, the first boxplot would have a much greater range as the highly talented players were stuck in Europe whereas the second boxplot would have a much lower range as the talent has largely fled to the NBA. This coincides with the style of play in the Euroleagues from 1958-1980 as there would have been the standout elite Euroleague players still playing there which had a skill set of a much higher level then the median players making Isolation the key strategy to score. This notion also coincides with the style of play in the Euroleagues from 1980-2011 as the elite players would leave for colleges in the US or for the NBA, resulting in a significant drop in the range of talent meaning that the discrepancy between the highest skilled players and the median players a great deal less which in turn would make team play the most effective because a team that plays to improve each other slightly individually would do better then a team with aims to largely improve only 1 player.

Another way of looking at it would be if we were to consider how the current NBA style of play would change if we were to remove all fringe all-star players and above. The ending result would more then likely mirror that of the Euroleagues. Obviously even with the diminished talent of the league there would still be "good players", it doesn't take a genius to know isolating a player such as Marvin Williams is far less effective then isolating Kobe Bryant.

Sorry for the essay and I understand if it too much reading. I just can't stand the ignorance of people that say the differences in the leagues style of play doesn't affect the way a player performs. I really don't think you can compare players stats from the two leagues and that a scouts ability to evaluate how a player will play in the NBA is heavily limited. Looking at NBA history with all the international draft busts, Id dare say my opinion is supported. Something which everyone has to agree on though is that every elite NBA player would still heavily succeed in the Euroleague. The irony in this notion though is that you cant tell me that if Kobe went to the Euroleague, the team that acquired him wouldn't just isolate him almost every single time down the floor changing their style of play... I guess Deron Williams will be the example

You are commiting a mistake, there is NBA talent that DECIDES to be in europe, you just need to check Navarros stats in memphis, he could play in any of the 30 franchises, with a bigger or lesser role from Scoring option to bench player ut he woudl ahve a place in each of the 30 franchises.

Then in EVERY euroleague team you got 3 or 4 players that could be in the league, at worst case scenario as Bench Warmers 10-12 in rotation.

but they of course decide to STAY HOME, be payed MORE MONEY, and be treated as stars.


Btw there hasnt been any change of focus in europe, we ALWAYS played Team basketball, because THATS WHAT WE LEARNED from the NCAA and NBA in teh 50s 60s and 70s.

In the nba it actually still existed in the 80s, Jordan changed all that for nba.

a_dub06
09-06-2011, 12:56 PM
You are commiting a mistake, there is NBA talent that DECIDES to be in europe, you just need to check Navarros stats in memphis, he could play in any of the 30 franchises, with a bigger or lesser role from Scoring option to bench player ut he woudl ahve a place in each of the 30 franchises.

Then in EVERY euroleague team you got 3 or 4 players that could be in the league, at worst case scenario as Bench Warmers 10-12 in rotation.

but they of course decide to STAY HOME, be payed MORE MONEY, and be treated as stars.


Btw there hasnt been any change of focus in europe, we ALWAYS played Team basketball, because THATS WHAT WE LEARNED from the NCAA and NBA in teh 50s 60s and 70s.

In the nba it actually still existed in the 80s, Jordan changed all that for nba.

Okay first off I am European and secondly, Basketball has been my passion for as long as I can remember.

European basketball has always been more team orientated then the NBA as the skill and athleticism of European players on average is less then that of the Americans. Isolation was the more dominant style in the early days of the Euroleague which transformed into team first and has been this way for some time.

Also some NBA teams played more team orientated then others (2004 Detroit Pistons) although Jordan did not change that. You are completely ignorant if you believe that the legends of the early days such as Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson.....etc played in systems that focused on team play. Many of these guys had great stats which would not be achievable in a team first system. Even taking into account how the pace of the game has changed, the NBA has always been a superstar dominated league.

If you actually read my post I didn't say there were no talented European players just that the elite European players fled to the US. Juan Carlos Navarro is by all means a good player and yes he can contribute to any NBA team in some form although he I believe is a product of the league I stated in my post. All the "elite" European players leave, leaving the lesser talented players to become the new sub-par elite players. You cant honestly believe that Juan Carlos Navarro is as good as Dirk Nowitski or Louis Scola for that matter.

These 3-4 players on each team you speak of that could be at least bench warmers in the NBA are not the "elite players" I am referring to. They would also be products of the talent drain system I proposed as obviously there is always going to be a top 10 Euroleague player list. The list will just be of less talent then that if the European players that left for the states stayed.

Teams without a "superstar" are forced to play a team first style because otherwise they would be forcing their 1-2 best players to put up the majority of shots producing high ppg and low shooting%, with the rest of the squad producing practically nothing. Having your entire team contribute smaller amounts and playing the smart open plays will prevail in that circumstance because the teams top 1-2 players are not THAT much greater then the teams best 3-6 players.....

If you were the coach of a team and you had a player that was much MORE talented then the rest of the league, you would be foolish not to run the plays through him as he would almost always score. If however your best player was only a bit better then the rest of the league, you would be foolish to play the game through him as chances are he would score a whole lot less then the previous example. That is why the Euroleague and NBA teams such as the 03-04 pistons play as a team! Its not necessarily less effective or worse, it just depends on the players skills on the team

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 01:32 PM
^navarro is not as good as dirk or Pau but you can bet your *** he is as good as Scola or better.

Same goes for dudes like Diamantidis.

Id love to hear where you are from Btw.

twin4life
09-06-2011, 02:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCxEe1zo8I

Ricky vs USA.. stats dont mean much if you watch it all he sets guys up and spreads the floor and can run..

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 02:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCxEe1zo8I

Ricky vs USA.. stats dont mean much if you watch it all he sets guys up and spreads the floor and can run..

highligth videos are not the best way to evaluate a player tough.

i mean im sure in 10 years there must be enough flashy great moves to make Scalabrine look good.

NYKalltheway
09-06-2011, 03:27 PM
Crooner, don't you agree that someone as inefficient as Teletovic would thrive in the NBA? :)

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 03:30 PM
Crooner, don't you agree that someone as inefficient as Teletovic would thrive in the NBA? :)

if given the touches, the minutes and the star treatment.....

topdog
09-06-2011, 04:01 PM
Everyone remembers Brandon Jennings' stats, right? A good number of the best statistical players in Europe aren't worth a dry towel over here, whereas others with less flattering stats are stars or thereabouts here.

The international game isn't as open as the NBA meaning playmakers don't have as much room to operate.

a_dub06
09-06-2011, 11:18 PM
^navarro is not as good as dirk or Pau but you can bet your *** he is as good as Scola or better.

Same goes for dudes like Diamantidis.

Id love to hear where you are from Btw.

Saying Navarro is as good as Scola is a massive stretch, saying he's better is just plain stupid. The comparison of NBA players to Euroleague players to me is not very credible. Comparing the play of Euroleague players in the NBA though or the play of NBA players play in the Euroleagues does hold validity in my opinion. If you compare the stats or even watch clips from Scola and Navarro its pretty obvious Scola is far superior to that of Navarro! Dimitris is also a good European player that could play on an NBA team however he would more then likely have a bench role.

Please read my post carefully because you seem to think I am saying that these guys cannot make the NBA or have very little skill when I am more referring to European players that have the talent to be a top 3 player on most nba teams and above.

I was Born in Lviv in Ukraine which is from a region on the western side referred to as Galicia. My family moved to Australia when I was 4 though and have lived here ever since. Where are you from?

Hellcrooner
09-06-2011, 11:21 PM
Saying Navarro is as good as Scola is a massive stretch, saying he's better is just plain stupid. The comparison of NBA players to Euroleague players to me is not very credible. Comparing the play of Euroleague players in the NBA though or the play of NBA players play in the Euroleagues does hold validity in my opinion. If you compare the stats or even watch clips from Scola and Navarro its pretty obvious Scola is far superior to that of Navarro! Dimitris is also a good European player that could play on an NBA team however he would more then likely have a bench role.

Please read my post carefully because you seem to think I am saying that these guys cannot make the NBA or have very little skill when I am more referring to European players that have the talent to be a top 3 player on most nba teams and above.

I was Born in Lviv in Ukraine which is from a region on the western side referred to as Galicia. My family moved to Australia when I was 4 though and have lived here ever since. Where are you from?

I am from the Spanish Galicia, but live in zaragoza, lived a short while in venezuela.

A syou can understand i have better acces to euroleague from here.

a_dub06
09-06-2011, 11:35 PM
I am from the Spanish Galicia, but live in zaragoza, lived a short while in venezuela.

A syou can understand i have better acces to euroleague from here.

I'm still yet to go to Spain but Ive heard great things and seen pictures of what appears to be a beautiful city.

I'm not going to deny you have better access because the Spanish teams in my opinion are the best in Europe and obviously still living there, games are much for accessible.

The beauty of globalization though is that with the internet and even a pay-tv service based in Australia that I use, watching Euroleague games is quite an easy feat.