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Bos_Sports4Life
09-04-2011, 05:21 PM
Ok, since there's a lockout and im bored...LETS TALK ABOUT RONDO!!!

Reasons why hes Underrated


1) DEFENSE-



A three time All-NBA Defensive Team member, Rondo’s cucumber sized fingers paired with his couch cushion hands make up a nightmare of a defender. In 2011, the kid was ranked second in the league in steals and oh ya, he broke the single season Celtics steals record in 2009-2010.


Also, His defense against opposing teams’ point guards allows Kevin Garnett and other Celtics big men too stay at home instead of help defenders—one of the main reasons they are considered the best defensive team in the NBA.



2) Passing/Setting up Teammates

how pronounced is the difference in Pierce's offensive production when Rondo is on the court? Consider this: With Rondo this season, Pierce is averaging 28.3 points per 48 minutes, while shooting 55.1 percent overall from the floor, including 51 percent from beyond the 3-point stripe. When Rondo is off the court, Pierce is averaging 19.6 points per 48 minutes, while shooting 39.7 percent, including a mere 6.7 percent from 3-point land.

Maybe it's not too surprising that most Celtics players are more productive with the assist-happy Rondo on the court, but Pierce's raw 3-point stats alone show the impact of Rondo. Pierce, the NBA's reigning 3-point champion, is 25-of-49 on 3-pointers with Rondo is on the floor and just 1-of-15 when he's not.



Rebounding: For a 6’1 toothpick, Rondo battles with the best of them under the boards. He is without a doubt the best rebounding point guard in the league, as he is consistently over the 4-5 average per game mark.



Playoffs: This is where he steps it up EVEN MORE...

2008-2009 (14 games) 16.9 pts/9.7 boards/9.8 assists as a 22 yr old

2009-2010 (24 games) 15.8 pts/5.6 boards/9.3 assists as a 23 yr old

2010-2011 ( 9 games) 14 pts/5.4 boards/9.6 assiss as a 24 yr old


ALSO, Between 08-'11 (ages 22-23) He accumulated 19.5 WIN SHARES (9.7 Offensive Win shares)

Lets Compare this too kidd...

First time kidd Accomplished 19.5 Ws's in a 2 yr stretch he was 30, and I CANT find a 2 yr stretch kidd accomplished 9.7 Offensive win shares..

Frrrrank!!!
09-04-2011, 05:25 PM
I agree Rondo is very underrated

effen5
09-04-2011, 05:27 PM
Needs to work on his jump shot but yes I agree he is a bit underrated.

bigtony989
09-04-2011, 05:27 PM
hmmm indeed

ChiTownPacerFan
09-04-2011, 05:37 PM
The Rondo affect? I think he seems pretty laid back.

Mwahaha, I made fun of your grammatical mistake, and there is nothing you can do about it.

TheRunKiller
09-04-2011, 05:39 PM
Oh his defense when other PGs blow right past him and he tries to poke the ball away from behind?

Corey
09-04-2011, 05:45 PM
Oh his defense when other PGs blow right past him and he tries to poke the ball away from behind?

He gambles as much as anyone, I agree.

On any other team, in any other system, he would be so exposed it's not even funny.

He's perfect for the Celtics right now, but I can't see him being anywhere close to the type of player Williams, Rose and Paul are in terms of building a franchise. He will never be the main piece on a title team or a title contending team. He's far too flawed.

sep11ie
09-04-2011, 05:45 PM
He's underrated now?

Corey
09-04-2011, 05:46 PM
He's underrated now?

Depends on who you ask. Celtic fans overrate the crap out of him. Certain other fanbases really underrate him and say he's just a product of his system.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-04-2011, 05:50 PM
He gambles as much as anyone, I agree.

On any other team, in any other system, he would be so exposed it's not even funny.

He's perfect for the Celtics right now, but I can't see him being anywhere close to the type of player Williams, Rose and Paul are in terms of building a franchise. He will never be the main piece on a title team or a title contending team. He's far too flawed.

Even though he was 7 minutes away from a finals mvp...

Corey
09-04-2011, 05:52 PM
Even though he was 7 minutes away from a finals mvp...

Close only counts in Horseshoes and hand grenades.

And like I just stated, supporting cast.

Rondo is too inconsistent, too weak on the offensive end, and lacks confidence in his jumper. He's a great player for the system he is in, but that system is going to be gone very soon.

TheRunKiller
09-04-2011, 05:55 PM
Even though he was 7 minutes away from a finals mvp...

Who says he would have won finals mvp if Boston won it all?

Bos_Sports4Life
09-04-2011, 06:05 PM
Close only counts in Horseshoes and hand grenades.

And like I just stated, supporting cast.

Rondo is too inconsistent, too weak on the offensive end, and lacks confidence in his jumper. He's a great player for the system he is in, but that system is going to be gone very soon.


System?? I didn't Realize Rondo was in this Perfect System :rolleyes:

The Perfect "system" For Rondo is a high paced/fast break team...Rondo is in a half court offense playing with old men...

Whats more rare...an elite passer...or a good shooter?

tredigs
09-04-2011, 06:14 PM
It was pretty incredible when Rondo just decided to average a triple double for a couple playoff series against D. Rose and then the Magic.

Great rebounder (just all around hugely infectious high-energy player), great playmaker and can turn on beast mode with regularity in the post-season. That said, having elite 3 point shooters and a solid interior D. is pretty necessary to maximize "The Rondo Effect" with the obvious holes in his game. He's not a player like Cp3 that could go to any system and dominate - playoffs or otherwise.

I like Rondo a lot though. One of the more unique point guards I've ever seen.

John Walls Era
09-04-2011, 06:14 PM
Underrated. One of my fave pgs.

BSplaya2121
09-04-2011, 06:19 PM
I think Rondo gets plenty of credit. He is a hell of a player on a championship caliber team. The only time I hear people give him a hard time is because of his shooting and frankly, i think anyone would agree that its a below average part of his game. Everyone I know gives him a lot of credit for being a glue for their big 3. Idk how much more credit you expect anyone to give him however. Is he an MVP? I think there are plenty of players that deserve that title before him. Is he a top point guard? I would say he is top 5 in the league but with that being said i personally think hes not better than Paul, Williams, Rose, and still Nash, and sometimes Jason Kidd. But I do think he deserves consideration to be up there on that list.

He gets plenty of credit, and I know ur just havin fun with this thread, but there are a lot of players out there that deserve to get more credit then Rondo. He gets plenty :)

tredigs
09-04-2011, 06:29 PM
Fun fact? Rajon Rondo actually shot a higher clip from 16-23 (long mid-range) than guys like Derrick Rose, D. Wade and Kobe last year. He's given more slack on that shot, but he's starting to make teams pay from that distance.

On a less stacked team, Rondo would probably average 18/9/5 on close to 50% shooting. His hands are a blessing and a curse when it comes to free throws though. Probably mental at this point, too.

nyanks79
09-04-2011, 06:36 PM
I think Rondo deserves credit on a lot of things people might overlook in the NBA game. But I think he still benifits alot from playing with the cast that he does.

TheRunKiller
09-04-2011, 06:43 PM
Fun fact? Rajon Rondo actually shot a higher clip from 16-23 (long mid-range) than guys like Derrick Rose, D. Wade and Kobe last year. He's given more slack on that shot, but he's starting to make teams pay from that distance.

On a less stacked team, Rondo would probably average 18/9/5 on close to 50% shooting. His hands are a blessing and a curse when it comes to free throws though. Probably mental at this point, too.

Probably because they played 7 feet off of him and forced him to shoot the jumper. if he was guarded like rose wade kobe, theres no way in hell he would have shot that high

ShakeN'Bake
09-04-2011, 06:45 PM
He gambles as much as anyone, I agree.

On any other team, in any other system, he would be so exposed it's not even funny.

He's perfect for the Celtics right now, but I can't see him being anywhere close to the type of player Williams, Rose and Paul are in terms of building a franchise. He will never be the main piece on a title team or a title contending team. He's far too flawed.

Yup, I worry about what his defense is going to be like when he doesn't have support. Hopefully he will give up the ole defense.

tredigs
09-04-2011, 06:55 PM
Probably because they played 7 feet off of him and forced him to shoot the jumper. if he was guarded like rose wade kobe, theres no way in hell he would have shot that high

Did you intentionally not bold my very next sentence, or just miss it? Point is, he made them and they're foolish to give him the slack at this point.

Corey
09-04-2011, 06:59 PM
Fun fact? Rajon Rondo actually shot a higher clip from 16-23 (long mid-range) than guys like Derrick Rose, D. Wade and Kobe last year. He's given more slack on that shot, but he's starting to make teams pay from that distance.

Not really comparable at all. Rondo takes 49% of his shots from the paint, only 6% from the perimeter. The other players you mentioned are a lot more perimeter-mid range oriented on the offensive end, and relied upon a lot heavier on the offensive end.

Rondo still gets wide open looks because people sag 5-8 feet off of him because his jumper is so poor.

Corey
09-04-2011, 07:02 PM
Did you intentionally not bold my very next sentence, or just miss it? Point is, he made them and they're foolish to give him the slack at this point.

That's a pretty broad generalization. He missed plenty as well.

He made 10/44 3pt attempts.

For someone that takes 50% of their shots in the paint, 47% from the field isn't fantastic.

He was better the previous two years than he was last year.

tredigs
09-04-2011, 07:09 PM
Not really comparable at all. Rondo takes 49% of his shots from the paint, only 6% from the perimeter. The other players you mentioned are a lot more perimeter-mid range oriented on the offensive end, and relied upon a lot heavier on the offensive end.

Rondo still gets wide open looks because people sag 5-8 feet off of him because his jumper is so poor.

He was 1.3/3.3 from 16-23 feet (41%). Wade 1.4/3.7 (37%), Rose 1.7/4.5 (38%). Regardless of the obvious difference in defensive presence from that range, that's comparable in attempts any way you cut it.


That's a pretty broad generalization. He missed plenty as well.

He made 10/44 3pt attempts.

For someone that takes 50% of their shots in the paint, 47% from the field isn't fantastic.

He was better the previous two years than he was last year.

He was a more efficient finisher around the rim than Rose as well.

And no, Rondo's mid-range shooting was better this year than the prior two seasons. WAY better than he was last year. Where do you get your stats?

Chronz
09-04-2011, 07:15 PM
Your #s Pierce can't right, right?

smith&wesson
09-04-2011, 07:38 PM
all he is missing is a jump shot.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 07:41 PM
I wonder where does the OP have Rondo ranked among PGs and also overall in the league.

LakersMaster24
09-04-2011, 07:46 PM
As long as he doesnt have a jumpshot and shoots below 70% from the FT line, I will not have him in my Top 5.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-04-2011, 07:56 PM
I wonder where does the OP have Rondo ranked among PGs and also overall in the league.

Imo only williams/Paul are the clear cut better players. Heck, if bos trades rondo for rose..it would hurt BOTH teams..Nash is ageing

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 08:00 PM
Imo only williams/Paul are the clear cut better players. Heck, if bos trades rondo for rose..it would hurt BOTH teams..Nash is ageing

So what are your rankings as of last season? IF Boston trades Rose for Rondo I'm not sure if it would hurt the Celtics in any way. Rose is 3 years younger and has rapidly improved every season he has been in the league. If we're talking about right now and 2-3 years down the road Rose may be a better choice for BOS.

That's not the question however. What are your rankings? Let's say top 6.

mightybosstone
09-04-2011, 08:04 PM
Aside from being the greatest to ever play the game, I've heard Rajon Rondo has developed a cure for cancer in his spare time and is currently working on a time travel device. Rondo should win MVP AND the Nobel prize.

championships
09-04-2011, 08:08 PM
As long as he doesnt have a jumpshot and shoots below 70% from the FT line, I will not have him in my Top 5.
This.

His poor free throw shooting tells just how bad his touch is on the ball.

If you can't shoot a free throw, I'm not so sure you will ever learn how to shoot with someone up in your face.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-04-2011, 08:24 PM
So what are your rankings as of last season? IF Boston trades Rose for Rondo I'm not sure if it would hurt the Celtics in any way. Rose is 3 years younger and has rapidly improved every season he has been in the league. If we're talking about right now and 2-3 years down the road Rose may be a better choice for BOS.

That's not the question however. What are your rankings? Let's say top 6.

Its hard too have a clear cut ranking..

If i need scoring i'd pick Rose..If i needed a facilitator, I'd take Rajon

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 08:29 PM
Its hard too have a clear cut ranking..

If i need scoring i'd pick Rose..If i needed a facilitator, I'd take Rajon

If you're starting a franchise from scratch? Who would you take in order.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-04-2011, 09:06 PM
Chris paul/Williams are obviously #1 and #2

After that..it gets debatable imo..

im interested too see what Rondo can do when healthy for a year..People seem too forget Rondo Averaged over 11 assists a game..with plantar fasciitis which is a major deal for someone who relies on explosiveness

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 09:10 PM
Chris paul/Williams are obviously #1 and #2

After that..it gets debatable imo..

im interested too see what Rondo can do when healthy for a year..People seem too forget Rondo Averaged over 11 assists a game..with plantar fasciitis which is a major deal for someone who relies on explosiveness

Well debate and stop dodging.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-04-2011, 09:49 PM
Well debate and stop dodging.


I didn't realize player A had too be clearly better than player B :shrug:

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 09:57 PM
I didn't realize player A had too be clearly better than player B :shrug:

Ok you're a waste of time.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-04-2011, 10:05 PM
Ok you're a waste of time.

thaaaats debatable

Sportfan
09-04-2011, 10:10 PM
Fun fact? Rajon Rondo actually shot a higher clip from 16-23 (long mid-range) than guys like Derrick Rose, D. Wade and Kobe last year. He's given more slack on that shot, but he's starting to make teams pay from that distance.

On a less stacked team, Rondo would probably average 18/9/5 on close to 50% shooting. His hands are a blessing and a curse when it comes to free throws though. Probably mental at this point, too.
saving this post for my redraft writeup. thx!!!


not to mention, rondo is very good at driving to the hoop for points. he never should be your go to guy, but he will be a great #2 guy to have next to a superstar. Rondo/Dwight :drool:

Bos_Sports4Life
09-04-2011, 10:16 PM
saving this post for my redraft writeup. thx!!!


not to mention, rondo is very good at driving to the hoop for points. he never should be your go to guy, but he will be a great #2 guy to have next to a superstar. Rondo/Dwight :drool:


:pray: :pray: :drool: :pray:

over under 6 allyoops a game?

Hustlenomics
09-04-2011, 11:10 PM
Laker fans talking about leaving Rondo out the top 5 like it matters. He's torched them plenty times and even won a title against them

Who says he would have won finals mvp if Boston won it all?

anyone that watched the series

iggypop123
09-05-2011, 01:18 AM
the only player more overated than rondo is kendrick bill rusell perkins. anyways rondo is overrated. not by alot but some. he basically makes easy passes to his 3 hall of famers, on defense like chris paul is overrated because of his steals average. want to see how bad he is see how fisher torched him in that finals 4th quarter. his biggest weakness is his pathetic jumpshot and he has done nothing to improve it. while the celtics get to play zone on their opponents rondo basically brings the zone to themsevles since he cannot make a jumpshot unless its luck.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-05-2011, 01:42 AM
the only player more overated than rondo is kendrick bill rusell perkins. anyways rondo is overrated. not by alot but some. he basically makes easy passes to his 3 hall of famers, on defense like chris paul is overrated because of his steals average. want to see how bad he is see how fisher torched him in that finals 4th quarter. his biggest weakness is his pathetic jumpshot and he has done nothing to improve it. while the celtics get to play zone on their opponents rondo basically brings the zone to themsevles since he cannot make a jumpshot unless its luck.

will kg, allen, and pierce make the hof? Sure, do they still play at a hof level? NO, they are fringe ALL STARS

SportsFanatic10
09-05-2011, 04:14 AM
aside from the glaring shooting/fts weakness, rondo is a very good pg and is in a great situation in boston(while it lasts). i'll be interested to see what he can do with lesser players around him however when/if that day comes. gotta say he annoyed the hell out of me when he tried to listen in on the heat's huddle but i felt pretty bad for him when he had the elbow injury and much respect for playing through it after. its crazy how he could defend lebron in the post at times too lol, but thats partly lebron not being a great post player as well.

millerandco
09-05-2011, 07:03 AM
i love rondo as a p.g he's one of the best in the league and is more a pure pg always looking to set up his teammates

but i'd disagree about him being the best rebounding pg. i'd have to say westbrook is

ramz.n
09-05-2011, 07:17 AM
hes a good player but I wouldn't call him underrated..he needs to improve his perimeter offense..does not have a jumpshot, cannot make free throws..we'll see if he can accomplish anything with the celtics when allen,pierce and garnett leave.

sventhedog
09-05-2011, 07:43 AM
how can a pg who handles the ball a lot, get to average close to triple double be underrated. no question about his passing rebounding and defense.

how about his offense? lack of decent jumpshot--> defense sagging off him--> creates poor spacing --> easier to defend --> instant double team on another player --> it's almost like a 4v5 on offense --> how's that for a rondo effect?

ewmania
09-05-2011, 08:39 AM
extremely underrated

people just comment on his jumpshot because thats all they have

thats like me saying dwight is overrated because he can't shoot the 3 ball.. or saying kevin durant sucks because he cant play perimeter d

dodie53
09-05-2011, 08:48 AM
still needs to work on his J

Bos_Sports4Life
09-05-2011, 12:39 PM
how can a pg who handles the ball a lot, get to average close to triple double be underrated. no question about his passing rebounding and defense.

how about his offense? lack of decent jumpshot--> defense sagging off him--> creates poor spacing --> easier to defend --> instant double team on another player --> it's almost like a 4v5 on offense --> how's that for a rondo effect?


Creating that much space at the same time gives rondo a better view of the court...and giving an elite floor general a wide open view can prove costly for who ever hes against

Hustlenomics
09-05-2011, 12:40 PM
the only player more overated than rondo is kendrick bill rusell perkins. anyways rondo is overrated. not by alot but some. he basically makes easy passes to his 3 hall of famers, on defense like chris paul is overrated because of his steals average. want to see how bad he is see how fisher torched him in that finals 4th quarter. his biggest weakness is his pathetic jumpshot and he has done nothing to improve it. while the celtics get to play zone on their opponents rondo basically brings the zone to themsevles since he cannot make a jumpshot unless its luck.
Fisher was killing everyone that quarter, and I'm pretty sure Rondo got a triple double in game 2. damn this post was so dumb.. im done :facepalm:

OaklandsFinest
09-05-2011, 01:59 PM
As much as I think Rondo is a great player the underrated argument makes me hate his name.. I spent half of last season hearing how fantastic he was. If i was starting a team today, Rondo comes after Williams, Paul, Rose, Wall etc.. My biggest problem with Rondo other than his jump shot is he disappears for stretches. He will get going early, creating lots of plays, scoring around the hoop, than he will just go into an existing mode, where he stops being a factor. I need you to atleast make the other team account for you for every second your on the court. Every second Derrick Rose is on the court you need to know where he is at because if you give him an inch he will take a mile.

Bullsfan22
09-05-2011, 09:15 PM
I don't like Rondo, but I do respect him. he's an average man to man defender and gets beat off the dribble a little to much to be called an elite defender, despite being really good at stealing and playing passing lanes.

He's a great passer but if there is a such thing as a selfish passer, he is that. I've seen him pass up layups to rack up assists.

He's a great rebounding pg damn near elite but that's one of the last qualities I'd want my pg to be elite at.

since my post will be looked at as hating I won't discuss his shooting and lack of confidence in that area.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-05-2011, 09:52 PM
I don't like Rondo, but I do respect him. he's an average man to man defender and gets beat off the dribble a little to much to be called an elite defender, despite being really good at stealing and playing passing lanes.

He's a great passer but if there is a such thing as a selfish passer, he is that. I've seen him pass up layups to rack up assists.

He's a great rebounding pg damn near elite but that's one of the last qualities I'd want my pg to be elite at.

since my post will be looked at as hating I won't discuss his shooting and lack of confidence in that area.


i dk if hes selfish as much as he doesn't have a scorers mentality...at all

Allthough if he did cash in those layups he could average 15 pts/game while shooting 50%

ManningToTyree
09-05-2011, 10:50 PM
I think he is correctly rated. He can't shoot for ****, and is elite at everything else. Making him a step below the likes of Rose, Paul, and Williams

Corey
09-06-2011, 10:08 AM
I think he is correctly rated. He can't shoot for ****, and is elite at everything else. Making him a step below the likes of Rose, Paul, and Williams

Great at everything else, not necessarily elite.

His defense is pretty overrated as well. He gambles as much as any guard in the league, but he is capable of playing amazing defense...he just gets lazy, and knows that Pierce/Allen or Garnett/Center will be there with weak side rotational help if his man gets to the lane.

I still say he isn't a franchise player, and he's not in the same league as Rose, Williams or Paul. If you try to build a team around him, you're asking for trouble. He can never be THE main piece on a title team.

avon_barksdale
09-06-2011, 10:17 AM
my take on rondo - cant hit a j, cant hit a ft, cant hit a 3, cant hit a layup, best passer in nba, best reboundin pg in nba, good defender as long as he aint posted up, good leader/general, overrated by some and underrated by them others

Bullsfan22
09-06-2011, 11:49 AM
He has a unique skill-set and yes skill-sets can be negatives also. He has a couple of flaws that just shouldn't be there as a point guard.

His lack of shooting comes from confidence issues (Boston fans can correct me if I'm wrong). He's a bad in game shooter, he proved he can shoot the ball wide open in the game of horse where he made it to the finals against KD. It leads me to believe that it's some kind of a mental block that he has to get pass in games.

My biggest gripe with him right now is his free throw shooting if he can improve that he'll be a little closer to becoming a more complete player.

As of right now he's a point guard that have elite qualities that would be great for other positions (rebounding) and lack natural pg qualities like shooting/free throws.

One promising thing is you can become a better shooter with work as a Bulls fan I saw it first hand with Rose and even deng improving his 3 ball.

I could see why Boston fans get excited about him because of his unique skill-set and what kind of competitor he is.

Shmontaine
09-06-2011, 12:34 PM
its more the KG, PP, and Ray Allen affect, with a rondo byproduct...

Sactown
09-06-2011, 01:01 PM
Rondo isn't a threat to the other team every second of the game like the elite point guards are... He's a great passer, but he gets a fair amount of space making it easier to read the defense.. he can't shoot free throws so he's a threat to the team late in games.. he's a good point guard, but he isn't great! Having Allen and Peirce along side of you helps keep the defense honest.. look at the Kings this year, lack of out side shooting made the defense pack it in on the paint making Tyreke have a difficult time do to his lack of outside shooting... if Rondo was on the Kings he would have a very very difficult time

Celticsfan2007
09-06-2011, 03:02 PM
not to mention, rondo is very good at driving to the hoop for points. he never should be your go to guy, but he will be a great #2 guy to have next to a superstar. Rondo/Dwight :drool:

Don't get me wrong as I love Rondo in green and want him there for the next 5-10years... but this whole Rondo/Dwight thing just really wouldn't work all that well and for this reason ONLY. Assuming these are your teams #1 and 2 options...

2mins left in the game. Who's your go to guy? Niether one can hit a FT to save his life.

End of story.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-06-2011, 03:33 PM
Don't get me wrong as I love Rondo in green and want him there for the next 5-10years... but this whole Rondo/Dwight thing just really wouldn't work all that well and for this reason ONLY. Assuming these are your teams #1 and 2 options...

2mins left in the game. Who's your go to guy? Niether one can hit a FT to save his life.

End of story.


How wouldn't howard/rondo work??

Howard is the best defensive player in the league (and its not even close.) Rondo is also a very good defender and he'd be able too continue taking chances ect

Also, Do you realize how sick of a pick & roll that would be...rondo too howard?? you'd see easy baskets all the time, Howard gets a ton of allyoops from guys like nelson

Also add in the fact Kg would resign for small money, u'd have kg/howard down low..

Celticsfan2007
09-06-2011, 04:01 PM
How wouldn't howard/rondo work??

Howard is the best defensive player in the league (and its not even close.) Rondo is also a very good defender and he'd be able too continue taking chances ect

Also, Do you realize how sick of a pick & roll that would be...rondo too howard?? you'd see easy baskets all the time, Howard gets a ton of allyoops from guys like nelson

Also add in the fact Kg would resign for small money, u'd have kg/howard down low..

Fantasy wise, I'd build a team around those two assuming I was willing to sacrifice my FT% category for givens in Reb+Assists+Steals+Blocks+FG%...

But seriously... They are both a liability at the FT line in late game situations, its just not ideal for any championship team to build around that.

I do agree though, if you had them in place with the current big 3 for maybe next season they could do some damage, but KG isn't getting any younger and neither is ray or paul so seeing Howard with the current 4 starters is a pipe dream.

blastmasta26
09-06-2011, 04:21 PM
His defense is suspect since he doesn't always focus on locking his man down, he often just gambles for steals which leads to him getting beat by the elite guards frequently. However, at his best he is a very good defender. His rebounding and passing are also very good. His jumper has been improving but his main flaw is his weak free throw shooting. As a guard who attacks the paint, he should really be shooting at least 70-75%.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-06-2011, 04:41 PM
Fantasy wise, I'd build a team around those two assuming I was willing to sacrifice my FT% category for givens in Reb+Assists+Steals+Blocks+FG%...

But seriously... They are both a liability at the FT line in late game situations, its just not ideal for any championship team to build around that.

I do agree though, if you had them in place with the current big 3 for maybe next season they could do some damage, but KG isn't getting any younger and neither is ray or paul so seeing Howard with the current 4 starters is a pipe dream.


Your thinking wayy in-deph

Those 2 would do a lot of damage for the first 45-46 minutes.

Rondo is an above average defender who playes the passing lanes extremly well, and dwight howard is the best defender period. A Dwight howard/Rondo pick & roll would be almost impossible too stop and would cause nightmares for opposing teams.

Also, Good shooters are a dime a dozen, they arn't hard too find.


Also, Teams tried doing the hack-a-shaq, guess what? Lakers still won anyways. Intentional fouling is a desperation move that doesn't pay off most of the time.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-06-2011, 04:48 PM
I do agree though, if you had them in place with the current big 3 for maybe next season they could do some damage, but KG isn't getting any younger and neither is ray or paul so seeing Howard with the current 4 starters is a pipe dream.



Kg in 2 yrs will still be a very good defender for 22-23 min/Game. Heck Last season he had 5.6 DWS (2nd in the nba) Overrated stat? Sure, but hes still the anchor too bostons defense. Kg is still an elite defender, Hes just not a consistant force on the offensive end anymore.

A Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Kg, Howard would probably be Favorites even in 2 seasons. Of course they would need some young legs too take up a lot of the minutes, Something the old big 3 in boston never had.

Shmontaine
09-06-2011, 04:50 PM
Your thinking wayy in-deph

Those 2 would do a lot of damage for the first 45-46 minutes.

you're not thinking deep enough IMO... who's going to win a close game at the end???


Rondo is an above average defender who playes the passing lanes extremly well, and dwight howard is the best defender period. A Dwight howard/Rondo pick & roll would be almost impossible too stop and would cause nightmares for opposing teams.

?? not really, you assume the defense will double rondo, which they won't...


Also, Good shooters are a dime a dozen, they arn't hard too find.

you need shooters who do more than shoot, and they aren't a dime a dozen..


Also, Teams tried doing the hack-a-shaq, guess what? Lakers still won anyways. Intentional fouling is a desperation move that doesn't pay off most of the time.
shaq made most of his big-time free throws... two sub 70% ft shooters as your #1 and #2 is very very bad...

Frrrrank!!!
09-06-2011, 05:03 PM
I think you're starting to underrate how great of a combo Rondo and Howard would be. Howard made a team with Nelson, Lewis, and Turkaglu one of the best defensive teams and brought that team to the finals one year. Give Howard Rondo, a old big 3 and some role players and that team is going to contend for a title.

NYKNYGNYY
09-06-2011, 05:17 PM
he shoots worse then a jv team...

NetsPaint
09-06-2011, 05:30 PM
To put this in a different perspective, here's a list of every NBA starting PG and why I think the Celtics would or wouldn't (or should or shouldn't) trade Rondo for a different starting PG (let's not have contracts be an issue here):

1. Derek Fisher: Obviously not. His age and what he brings now isn't nearly enough for the Celtics to rather have Fisher than Rondo.

2. Luke Ridnour: They wouldn't. I haven't watched him a lot, I read he's inconsistent, not a good fg% most of his career, and doesn't put the effort in on defense a lot. I read last season was his best season. Obviously, this trade would not happen.

3. Mario Chalmers/Mike Bibby: No, obviously. Don't even need to explain this one.

4: Kyle Lowry: Don't remember what I saw him. His stats look nice and I've heard good things about him. Thoughts?

5: Baron Davis: Age wise, this wouldn't and shouldn't get done. After struggling on the Clippers until last season, he didn't get much attention. His chemistry with Griffin, passing more, and even getting some big wins for the Cavaliers, including against the Heat, has shown he has it still. He's a better player than Rondo now imo.

6: Darren Collison: Impressive first two seasons/post-season for the young man. Would be a big gamble for the Celtics to trade for him. They shouldn't do this imo.

7: D.J. Augustin: Hmmm How's his defense? I prefer his offense over Rondo, but Rondo's offense has been successful for the Celtics. The Celtics wouldn't do this as far as what they know of Augustin.

8. Ty Lawson: This is kind of a tough one. I think the Celtics should do it if given the opportunity. He's better offensively, he's faster than Rondo (I bring it up because Rondo's speed on the Celtics helped the team), and he's younger. He might improve much more on the Celtics like Rondo did and when the Celtics' top three players get older, I think Lawson would be much more valuable than Rondo.

9: Jose Calderon: Well, he seems to be a good offensive player with a good tempo, but I heard he's pretty bad on defense. I'd be surprised if there's many people who think the Celtics should do this trade, but I haven't watched Calderon enough.

10: Mike Conley: The Celtics should definitely do this if given the opportunity. He proved a lot to me in this year's Playoffs, and I think with the Celtics he'd definitely improve.

11: Kirk Hinrich: Good defender, not bad on offense, would he be much more successful on the Celtics than he is now? I want everybody's opinion on this one.

12: Jason Kidd: Well this trade clearly wouldn't and shouldn't happen. I do think Kidd has an edge on Rondo on some things still.

13: Mo Williams: No. What I've seen of Mo Williams he's not really a PG, and without LeBron James, yeah. I don't think this could even be a debate.

14: Jrue Holiday: Very good PG with a ton of potential. Very good passer. The Celtics should jump at this immediately if given the chance.

15: Brandon Jennings: I don't think so. He hasn't proven to me, as far I have seen and heard, to be much more than a typical starting combo guard.

16: Stephen Curry: Yes, a lot of potential. Sure, he hasn't been racking up the assists as much as you'd want from your starting PG, but the Celtics shouldn't be thinking about that, they should be thinking about what the player would bring. He has a great future and maybe you can even build around him. Also, he does have passing skills, so who knows with that.

17: Raymond Felton: Kind of a combo guard, good player. I do think he's a better player, but I don't know if he'd be the right fit for this Celtics team, and he's not gonna be your PG of the future either, at least it seems.

18: Devin Harris: Dropped off a lot since his All-Star season. Would he get back to that form if he played for the contending Celtics? I don't think they'd take that chance...

19: John Wall: Yeah, they would. However, the interesting thing about this one is Wall showed some of Rondo's struggles. The difference is that was his first season and he's a franchise player already.

20: Rodney Stuckey: Combo guard, but he hasn't stopped improving. Tell me your thoughts, I haven't seen enough of him.

21: Chauncey Billups: Billups is better now, but it won't and shouldn't happen because of age.

22: Jameer Nelson: I dunno about this one. It's kinda like what I stated about Raymond Felton, except he's been on contending teams and he's more of a scorer.

23: Tyreke Evans: Without a doubt.

24: Tony Parker: Well, I don't think I heard much about him being a good defender, but he's a winner and putting up very good numbers still. They should do this.

25: Steve Nash: Steve Nash is so good on offense, and healthy and in good enough condition, I wonder if the Celtics would consider this. The Celtics' window is closing and Rondo is not gonna be a franchise player. This would be a great opportunity for them for at least two years. Nash's defense is also underrated. He's not great, but he does get in the right place at the right time. Anybody who says anything different hasn't been watching him. Nash is also the best offensive PG imo.

26: Russell Wesbrook: Not a franchise player. I do think the Celtics would consider it, and might trade for him. Similar to what I said about Curry, except I think the Celtics would think about this a lot more than than they would with him. Could be great for their future and Westbrook would be around great veterans.

27. Derrick Rose: Should and would.

28: Deron Williams: Same.

29: Chris Paul: Same again.

So in conclusion, despite people thinking he's an elite PG, the Celtics would trade for Rondo for a few PGs, and consider others.

Hustlenomics
09-06-2011, 07:58 PM
^ I won't even read that post because you said Delonte was better than Rondo during the playoffs

Bos_Sports4Life
09-06-2011, 08:36 PM
^ I won't even read that post because you said Delonte was better than Rondo during the playoffs

I stopped reading when he said we should trade rondo for lawson lol

69centers
09-06-2011, 11:46 PM
8. Ty Lawson: This is kind of a tough one. I think the Celtics should do it if given the opportunity. He's better offensively, he's faster than Rondo (I bring it up because Rondo's speed on the Celtics helped the team), and he's younger. He might improve much more on the Celtics like Rondo did and when the Celtics' top three players get older, I think Lawson would be much more valuable than Rondo.



10: Mike Conley: The Celtics should definitely do this if given the opportunity. He proved a lot to me in this year's Playoffs, and I think with the Celtics he'd definitely improve.

The Celtics would never trade Rondo for Lawson or Conley. NEVER

NetsPaint
09-07-2011, 12:10 AM
The Celtics would never trade Rondo for Lawson or Conley. NEVER
I didn't say they would.

Too much stock is putting into Rondo. Some of the other teams I listed would become worse if they traded for him (Jrue for Rondo).

NetsPaint
09-07-2011, 12:11 AM
^ I won't even read that post because you said Delonte was better than Rondo during the playoffs
Don't be blinded by Rondo's unnecessary playing hurt thing in the second round. West played better against the Heat.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-07-2011, 12:37 AM
Don't be blinded by Rondo's unnecessary playing hurt thing in the second round. West played better against the Heat.


Anyone with 2 eyes and an once of basketball knowledge knows Rondo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>West...

RZZZA
09-07-2011, 12:43 AM
I hope Rondo finds his jump shot again. That story with Obama got me rooting for him.

Chronz
09-07-2011, 12:24 PM
Dwight rarely gets his offense off PnR sets, thats with Jameer/Hedo running it, it tends to open up shots for shooters. Rondo could be different but without a decent stroke Im not seeing what makes it deadly.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-08-2011, 01:47 PM
Dwight rarely gets his offense off PnR sets, thats with Jameer/Hedo running it, it tends to open up shots for shooters. Rondo could be different but without a decent stroke Im not seeing what makes it deadly.

Any time ive seen Howard and they Dont deside too be morons by posting him up...No one can stop him from getting easy baskets...

If howard and a few 3 point shooters can get too the nba finals, I dont see how Rondo/Howard wouldn't work :shrug:

Add in the fact i think the current big 3 would sign for lesser deals..That team would be favs imo

Chronz
09-08-2011, 02:00 PM
Teams stop him from getting easy buckets off the PnR by packing the lane and leaving perimeter players open from outside. Which is why SVG 4-Out offense is so predictable when hes not posting up. When the shots are falling the team is elite, when they arent they have to hope Dwight is obliterating teams with post-ups and preventing anything easy inside on the other end.

So having Dwight in the PnR basically opens up offense for your 3pt shooters, not for Rondo or Dwight. The reason Dwight isnt as prolific in the PnR ala Blake/Amare is because he lacks Blakes handle and/or doesnt have Amare's Jumpshot ability to pop away from it. Having Rondo run the PnR changes things, Im just saying its not that deadly, its no Nash-Amare or even Baron-Blake.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-08-2011, 02:40 PM
Teams stop him from getting easy buckets off the PnR by packing the lane and leaving perimeter players open from outside. Which is why SVG 4-Out offense is so predictable when hes not posting up. When the shots are falling the team is elite, when they arent they have to hope Dwight is obliterating teams with post-ups and preventing anything easy inside on the other end.

So having Dwight in the PnR basically opens up offense for your 3pt shooters, not for Rondo or Dwight. The reason Dwight isnt as prolific in the PnR ala Blake/Amare is because he lacks Blakes handle and/or doesnt have Amare's Jumpshot ability to pop away from it. Having Rondo run the PnR changes things, Im just saying its not that deadly, its no Nash-Amare or even Baron-Blake.


You'd still see quite a few easy buckets/allyoops....

Also, even in 2 years kg would still play elite d for 20-24 min a game and having howard back him up would only make things easier for kg..

99.999% Chance Howard wont come too Boston since The celtics have never attracted big time fa's. Allthough ive always been curious why that is...

rever
09-08-2011, 03:34 PM
As much as I think Rondo is a great player the underrated argument makes me hate his name.. I spent half of last season hearing how fantastic he was. If i was starting a team today, Rondo comes after Williams, Paul, Rose, Wall etc.. My biggest problem with Rondo other than his jump shot is he disappears for stretches. He will get going early, creating lots of plays, scoring around the hoop, than he will just go into an existing mode, where he stops being a factor. I need you to atleast make the other team account for you for every second your on the court. Every second Derrick Rose is on the court you need to know where he is at because if you give him an inch he will take a mile.

I am a huge celtics fan... And this is absolutley true. Rndos biggest problem is himself. there are strestches where he can score at will as terrible as his jumpsho is.But he gets sucked into his own hype sometimes. Last year when he was avg like 14 assists a game he started driving the lane for a wide open latup then he would stop and wait to pass to get an assist instead. I really believe he could care less about scoring. When and if he ever realizes to take whats givento him and just feel out the game on a play by play basis then he could be a # 1 option on a team. But until then he is a # 2 option or maybe even a 3

NetsPaint
09-08-2011, 03:36 PM
Teams stop him from getting easy buckets off the PnR by packing the lane and leaving perimeter players open from outside. Which is why SVG 4-Out offense is so predictable when hes not posting up. When the shots are falling the team is elite, when they arent they have to hope Dwight is obliterating teams with post-ups and preventing anything easy inside on the other end.

So having Dwight in the PnR basically opens up offense for your 3pt shooters, not for Rondo or Dwight. The reason Dwight isnt as prolific in the PnR ala Blake/Amare is because he lacks Blakes handle and/or doesnt have Amare's Jumpshot ability to pop away from it. Having Rondo run the PnR changes things, Im just saying its not that deadly, its no Nash-Amare or even Baron-Blake.
I agree with this. SVG's system is like D'Antoni's, it's not a good style of play especially when you have multiple guys on your team who can slash. Even if it wasn't that style, Rondo would have to much improve his shooting, unless of course you still have Jameer Nelson or somebody at the 2.

Solid shooting from a good passer goes a long way. When Jason Williams was on the floor for Orlando the flow of the offense was much better than with Jameer, but Jameer was much younger and could stay on the floor a lot more so yeah. Stan Van Gundy even said Jason Williams has the best tempo of the guards when he was there, which he did.

Jameer is good, but he's not what that team needs, at least as the PG, with Howard there. Rondo might be very successful with Howard with much better shooting, otherwise, the combination of him not being a good shooter, and both of them being a liability at the free throw line is bigger than a lot might think.

rever
09-08-2011, 03:40 PM
my take on rondo - cant hit a j, cant hit a ft, cant hit a 3, cant hit a layup, best passer in nba, best reboundin pg in nba, good defender as long as he aint posted up, good leader/general, overrated by some and underrated by them others

umm rondo is an excellent finisher around the basket

NetsPaint
09-08-2011, 03:49 PM
umm rondo is an excellent finisher around the basket
Inconsistent around the basket from what I've seen. A lot of the times he had a ton of space in the lane (Knicks' bad defense this year in the Playoffs), and other times he is good and consistent (2010 post-season). The passing up shots thing could either be stat padding, trying to do to much, or he isn't THAT good around the rim (defenders getting up on him).

I agree with you in the believing his own hype thing, which is bad and might have also been good for him. I do think he's overrated, but last year in the post-season it's like he believed so much in his own hype that he even got me to give him credit. I haven't seen that kind of play from him since (I don't follow the Celtics much, I will watch more games on League Pass next season so I have a much better opinion).

HouRealCoach
09-08-2011, 04:14 PM
He is not better than Deron, Paul, Rose, or Nash...

I just cant wait to see how much he will get exposed and forgotten about when Pierce, Ray Allen and KG leave the team. Perkins was the part one of being exposed and you see how that turned out

Rondo is too cocky and acts like he has Magic Johnson accomplishments under his belt... then when he said his arm was BROKEN... I lost all respect for him

Bos_Sports4Life
09-08-2011, 06:37 PM
He is not better than Deron, Paul, Rose, or Nash...

I just cant wait to see how much he will get exposed and forgotten about when Pierce, Ray Allen and KG leave the team. Perkins was the part one of being exposed and you see how that turned out

Rondo is too cocky and acts like he has Magic Johnson accomplishments under his belt... then when he said his arm was BROKEN... I lost all respect for him



ehh, I have a few issues with this


1) Perkins was NEVER talked about as an elite center. Celtic fans never claimed he was a top C...Most people say hes an above average too Very good defensive center, esp in the post

2) You, like most act as if Kg, Pierce, and allan are elite..NEWSFLASH, they are not.

Keven garnett hasn't averaged 15 ppg since '08 and Ray allen hasn't Averaged 17 ppg since '08 and hasn't reached 20 ppg since his sonic days.

The ONLY reason they are still kind of in contention is becaus of rondos emergence as they have formed a "Big 4" that compliment each other sooo good.

Its gotten too a point where anyone who has 2 eyes, a hint of basketball knowledge, and watches the celtics on a semi-regular basis knows kg,allen, and pierce rely on rondo just as much as rondo relies on them. None of the big 3 can create on a consistant basis and need too be set up

Corey
09-08-2011, 07:10 PM
Its gotten too a point where anyone who has 2 eyes, a hint of basketball knowledge, and watches the celtics on a semi-regular basis knows kg,allen, and pierce rely on rondo just as much as rondo relies on them. None of the big 3 can create on a consistant basis and need too be set up

Nope.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-08-2011, 07:37 PM
Nope.

So are you saying no too

- U dont have eyes

- U dont follow the celtics on a semi consistant basis

- U dont have an once of basketball knowledge?


Just so you know...before u get all power hungry and hand out an infraction...im not the one who posted "nope"

Frrrrank!!!
09-08-2011, 07:39 PM
lol

CavsYanksDuke
09-08-2011, 08:05 PM
The Rondo Effect.

theheatles
09-08-2011, 08:20 PM
rondo isn't underrated, he is surrounded by the best shooting sg in the league, a top 3 best shooting sf, and a top 3 shooter for a pf...that allows rondo to do the things he does with his aggressive penetration for easy lay ups or dish it out to a spot up shooter if a help defender comes over

Rivera
09-08-2011, 08:24 PM
So are you saying no too

- U dont have eyes

- U dont follow the celtics on a semi consistant basis

- U dont have an once of basketball knowledge?


Just so you know...before u get all power hungry and hand out an infraction...im not the one who posted "nope"

lol do you watch basketball????

rondo is a beast and does a lot...but he doesnt set up every shot for ray allen or paul pierce or KG or anyone else or else he would average north of 30 assist a game

Bos_Sports4Life
09-08-2011, 08:29 PM
lol do you watch basketball????

rondo is a beast and does a lot...but he doesnt set up every shot for ray allen or paul pierce or KG or anyone else or else he would average north of 30 assist a game


Have you seen What happens when the offense doesn't flow through Rondo?? It struggles...a lot

Corey
09-08-2011, 09:33 PM
So are you saying no too

- U dont have eyes

- U dont follow the celtics on a semi consistant basis

- U dont have an once of basketball knowledge?


Just so you know...before u get all power hungry and hand out an infraction...im not the one who posted "nope"

omgz that wuz so fun-E!

Anyways, Rondo has arguably the best shooter of all time at the 2, one of the best shooters at his position at the 3, and arguably the best mid range shooting 4 in the past few decades. On top of that, he has a coach that is known for drawing up great plays on offense.

It's the three hall of famers + a really good coach effect. Rondo is the byproduct.

But I don't have eyes, know basketball or follow the Celtics at all, so what do I know?

Bos_Sports4Life
09-08-2011, 09:49 PM
omgz that wuz so fun-E!

Anyways, Rondo has arguably the best shooter of all time at the 2, one of the best shooters at his position at the 3, and arguably the best mid range shooting 4 in the past few decades. On top of that, he has a coach that is known for drawing up great plays on offense.

It's the three hall of famers + a really good coach effect. Rondo is the byproduct.

But I don't have eyes, know basketball or follow the Celtics at all, so what do I know?

They are hall of famers based on PAST ACCOMPLISHMENTS....

Too act as if they are in there prime is clueless...all 3 are well past there prime...

Corey
09-09-2011, 12:19 AM
They are hall of famers based on PAST ACCOMPLISHMENTS....

Too act as if they are in there prime is clueless...all 3 are well past there prime...

Garnett is, sure. Pierce and Allen are still playing the most productive basketball of their careers.

And Garnett is still the best defensive power forward in the NBA, as well as one of the best in terms of shooting mid range. Yes, he's over the hill and has a bad knee, but he still knocks down a 16 footer at a very high percentage.

The point is, all three are excellent shooters at their positions. Makes the point guard's job a whole lot easier when that's the case.

salimstoudamire
09-09-2011, 12:39 AM
Bum. He will never touch Kidd.

Corey
09-09-2011, 06:07 AM
Bum. He will never touch Kidd.

Bum is going overboard.

ShakeN'Bake
09-09-2011, 07:44 AM
Anyone with 2 eyes and an once of basketball knowledge knows Rondo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>West...



So are you saying no too

- U dont have eyes

- U dont follow the celtics on a semi consistant basis

- U dont have an once of basketball knowledge?


Just so you know...before u get all power hungry and hand out an infraction...im not the one who posted "nope"

Usually I don't comment about grammar but come one you made the same mistake twice and when you your using the word OUNCE to try to take away from someone else knowledge you should at least spell it right.

On topic: Rondo is great and one of my favorite current Celtics but he definitely benefits from the team. He does not set up every assist that he makes, but a lot of plays wouldn't happen without him.

69centers
09-09-2011, 08:24 AM
Nobody ever takes anything away from Stockton for playing with one of the most prolific scorers the league has ever seen. In fact, Malone is 2nd all time in points behind only Kareem. You have to attribute a lot of Malone's points to Stockton, just like you have to say a lot of the big 3's continued offensive success depends on Rondo.

Corey
09-09-2011, 08:45 AM
Nobody ever takes anything away from Stockton for playing with one of the most prolific scorers the league has ever seen. In fact, Malone is 2nd all time in points behind only Kareem. You have to attribute a lot of Malone's points to Stockton, just like you have to say a lot of the big 3's continued offensive success depends on Rondo.

You really dont, though. The big three were just as productive without Rondo. You can't say that they have stayed at their peak longer because of Rondo, you have no way to prove that.

Ray Allen would be a machine reguardless of who his point guard is, it's just the type of player he is. Same with Pierce, and KG. If anything, the 'big three' benefits from playing with each other because they finally get single coverage the entire game, something none of the three got consistently throughout their careers. That's not a Rondo-thing...that's a having-three-HOF'ers thing.

Hustlenomics
09-09-2011, 09:27 AM
people still think he's only good because of the players he's playing with? Why wasn't mike bibby or carlos arroyo all stars?

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 10:21 AM
Why is Rondo getting so much love when the team's offense actually performs better when Paul, Allen or KG is on the floor as opposed to Rondo?

Offense Per 100 Possesions.

Player ON Court OFF Court Net
Paul Pierce 111.7 97.8 +13.9
Kevin Garnett 112.1 101.8 +10.3
Ray Allen 110.3 100.2 +10.1
Rajon Rondo 111.0 101.5 +9.5

Hell the Celtics are even better defensively when Rondo is off the floor than when he's on.

RAPM (regularized adjusted +/-)

Name O/100 D/100 O+D/200
Garnett, Kevin 1.7 3.9 5.5
Pierce, Paul 1.8 2.4 4.1
Allen, Ray 1.1 1.2 2.2
Rondo, Rajon 1.1 0.9 2.0

So to the Celtics homer who keeps trying to act like the only reason the Big 3 are so good is because of Rondo. Be quiet.

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 10:24 AM
people still think he's only good because of the players he's playing with? Why wasn't mike bibby or carlos arroyo all stars?

Rondo is a top 10 PG no doubt. However he does benefit from playing alongside Bos big 3. Is he a result of playing alongside them I'd say hell no, Big 3 or not he's still a very good PG. What's even more foolish however is to say that the big 3 are a product of Rondo. Rondo or not they are 3 very proven players and they know how to play the game the right way. If Rondo wasn't there they'd still be producing at a high level. Does he make them better? Yes. Are they a result of him? NO.

Corey
09-09-2011, 10:56 AM
Youre going to get hated on so hard for "being a stat geek".

Good stats though. Completely agree that the individual success of the big 3 can't be attributed to Rondo

PrettyBoyJ
09-09-2011, 11:54 AM
I think ppl undervalue him because of his lack of an offensive game and being able to carry a team with his scoring.. Even tho he's a PG and his main focus is to set up everybody, the top PG in the league like Chris Paul & Deron Williams can give you 30 any night but also set up teammates and finish the game with 10+ assist..

swirl54
09-09-2011, 12:16 PM
As a Bulls fan I'd love to combine him in the backcourt with D.Rose

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 12:58 PM
Usually I don't comment about grammar but come one you made the same mistake twice and when
you your using the word OUNCE to try to take away from someone else knowledge you should at least spell it right.

On topic: Rondo is great and one of my favorite current Celtics but he definitely benefits from the team. He does not set up every assist that he makes, but a lot of plays wouldn't happen without him.


Next time you correct someone eles grammer, make sure your grammer isn't a bit off......

Corey
09-09-2011, 01:56 PM
Next time you correct someone eles grammer, make sure your grammer isn't a bit off......

Grammar *


:facepalm:

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 01:59 PM
Grammar *


:facepalm:

And what's even worst he used it twice.

:facepalm: :facepalm:

ShakeN'Bake
09-09-2011, 02:13 PM
Next time you correct someone eles grammer, make sure your grammer isn't a bit off......

Touche.

Shmontaine
09-09-2011, 02:32 PM
OP was proven wrong -- /thread...

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 03:48 PM
Grammar *


:facepalm:


lol...your the better speller ALLTHOUGH...Here's a list of Icons who couldn't spell....

-GEORGE WASHINGTON

-WOODROW WILSON

-GEORGE PATTON

- ZACHARY TAYLOR


Also, did you know 25 billionaires, 8 U.S Presidents, 55 best selling authors, 10 noble prize winners have dropped out of hs?? Alot of times due too poor grades...


Guess what? Im just more simmilar too them than you...:D

And Me and Fraaaaaaaaank STILL have 10 times more Basketball/Celtics knowledge as you

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 04:03 PM
Why is Rondo getting so much love when the team's offense actually performs better when Paul, Allen or KG is on the floor as opposed to Rondo?

Offense Per 100 Possesions.

Player ON Court OFF Court Net
Paul Pierce 111.7 97.8 +13.9
Kevin Garnett 112.1 101.8 +10.3
Ray Allen 110.3 100.2 +10.1
Rajon Rondo 111.0 101.5 +9.5

Hell the Celtics are even better defensively when Rondo is off the floor than when he's on.

RAPM (regularized adjusted +/-)

Name O/100 D/100 O+D/200
Garnett, Kevin 1.7 3.9 5.5
Pierce, Paul 1.8 2.4 4.1
Allen, Ray 1.1 1.2 2.2
Rondo, Rajon 1.1 0.9 2.0

So to the Celtics homer who keeps trying to act like the only reason the Big 3 are so good is because of Rondo. Be quiet.


Ehh

1) Your using RAPM (Very flawed stat btw)

Going with O+d/200 nick collison is a top 5 player in the nba...NICK COLLISON!!

Heck, Wade finnished outside the top 15 and finnished right ahead of conley/millsap


2) Rondo Played more minutes than the big 3...which means more minutes on the 2nd unit...


Again, anyone who WATCHES the games (I know, the whole watching/understanding the game and comparing players that was has gone out the window) knows The offense struggles when the offense flows through Pierce/West ect

Heck, Just a couple yrs ago when the c's were having some chemistry issues and were having a tough time handing the offense too the young rondo, the celtics struggled...When Pierce and the rest finally decided too let rondo run the show..Guess what? NBA Finals

Shmontaine
09-09-2011, 04:11 PM
Ehh

1) Your using RAPM (Very flawed stat btw)

2) Rondo Played more minutes than the big 3...which means more minutes on the 2nd unit...


Again, anyone who WATCHES the games knows The offense struggles when the offense flows through Pierce/West ect

Heck, Just a couple yrs ago when the c's were having some chemistry issues and were having a tough time handing the offense too the young rondo, the celtics struggled...When Pierce and the rest finally decided too let rondo run the show..Guess what? NBA Finals

??? what??? rondo's second year, and first year as full-time starter (when pierce did more of the ball handling in tough games and down the stretch) they won the title... what are you talking about?? they became competitive once the big 3 got together, not because of rondo, man... hence, the 'big 3' term

PatsSoxKnicks
09-09-2011, 04:21 PM
Ehh

1) Your using RAPM (Very flawed stat btw)


How so?

The truth of the matter is its probably the best +/- stat we have out there and in the statistical community, is held in very high regards. Honestly, if you're going to use a +/- stat, RAPM is the one to use.

Anyways, I won't pretend to be an expert on RAPM but I trust the opinion of this guy (http://basketballonpaper.com/) over some poster on an NBA forum (no offense to you, but that guy has actually worked in an NBA front office which no one on this forum can say.)

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 04:25 PM
How so?

The truth of the matter is its probably the best +/- stat we have out there and in the statistical community, is held in very high regards. Honestly, if you're going to use a +/- stat, RAPM is the one to use.

Anyways, I won't pretend to be an expert on RAPM but I trust the opinion of this guy (http://basketballonpaper.com/) over some poster on an NBA forum (no offense to you, but that guy has actually worked in an NBA front office which no one on this forum can say.)


And I trust Red auerbach over him...and anyone else

And im interested too see what he'd think of advanced stats...

Basketball isn't baseball...going soley on stats is usually missleading/Doesn't tell the whole story

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 04:29 PM
As you can see...Im not a huge fan of advanced stats

Most advanced stats make guys like freaking Bill Russell look...EHH, when hes possibly the freaking greatest of all time

PatsSoxKnicks
09-09-2011, 04:34 PM
And I trust Red auerbach over him...and anyone else

And im interested too see what he'd think of advanced stats...

Basketball isn't baseball...going soley on stats is usually missleading/Doesn't tell the whole story

What does Red have to do with anything? BTW, I'd say Lawson and Afflalo were pretty good picks right? Well, he made those picks.

Didn't you use advanced stats earlier in this thread? Kind of contradictory to use it and then bash it.

In any case, "advanced stats" (or I should say pace) have been around for a long time, it's just no one knew it. Dean Smith used to use it routinely.

Yeah and whats worse is using them incorrectly/not understanding them. RAPM is the best +/- stat out there. So why bash RAPM but not the regular +/- stats? The results for regular +/- numbers are just as "crazy".

In any case, you're trying to measure Rondo's intangible aspect right? That something that RAPM would presumably pick up as opposed to box score based stats.

Shmontaine
09-09-2011, 04:34 PM
As you can see...Im not a huge fan of advanced stats

Most advanced stats make guys like freaking Bill Russell look...EHH, when hes possibly the freaking greatest of all time

as i can see, you don't really know what your talking about...

PatsSoxKnicks
09-09-2011, 04:38 PM
As you can see...Im not a huge fan of advanced stats

Most advanced stats make guys like freaking Bill Russell look...EHH, when hes possibly the freaking greatest of all time

Well 22 out of the 30 teams use them and that number has obviously been growing. Not to mention that a lot of the teams that are more successful have stat guys on their payroll (the Celtics actually being one of the first). The Mavs, the NBA champion, had the first stat guy on the bench. So you may not be a big fan of advanced stats, but they're obviously being used in the NBA and its become almost universal (only 8 teams don't use advanced stats and I think of those 8 teams, they may actually have lower level guys).

I honestly don't see how you could make a case for Russell as the GOAT unless you only look at titles (in which case you could argue such stuff like Horry > MJ) and/or are a Celtics fan. That distinction belongs to MJ, which I think is obvious to almost everyone (stat guys or otherwise). Just see the #1 PSD poll.

PS- I've actually heard Danny Ainge reference pace adjusted stats in an interview on WEEI. So whether you like it or not, they are involved in basketball. May as well be at least willing to use them (not saying they should be the sole judge because obviously other stuff like psychology can play a role too)

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 04:53 PM
Ehh

1) Your using RAPM (Very flawed stat btw)

Going with O+d/200 nick collison is a top 5 player in the nba...NICK COLLISON!!

Explain to me how RAPM is a very flawed stat. Anyone with a brain would understand that when making comparisons you compare players of the same role. You don't just go comparing a 3rd or 4th man off the bench with a team's #1 option and leader in minutes played.

But hey would you like OSPM

Player G Min OSPM
Paul Pierce 80 2774 3.28
Ray Allen 80 2890 2.75
Rajon Rondo 68 2527 1.18
Kevin Garnett 71 2220 0.86

How about their OVORP

Player OVORP
Paul Pierce 3.72
Ray Allen 3.60
Rajon Rondo 2.37
Kevin Garnett 2.24

I guess these are also flawed metrics right?


2) Rondo Played more minutes than the big 3...which means more minutes on the 2nd unit...

Rajon Rondo player 2527 minutes last season 415 of those came when the big 3 weren't on the floor together (most occasions 2 of the 3 were on the floor regardless). Meaning he played 84% of his time one the floor alongside the big 3. 84%.

But how about the 2nd unit? When none of the big 3 members were on the floor? Well Rondo played a grand total of 23 mins all season without a member of the big 3 being on the floor. Meaning that 0.9% of his time on the floor last season was spent alongside the 2nd unit or rather no members of the big 3. He spent 99.1% of his time on the floor with at least one member of the big 3.

So hear what don't attempt to use MPG as an excuse because playing alongside the back ups did not bring down Rondo's production nor did it hurt him in any significant way statistically.


Again, anyone who WATCHES the games (I know, the whole watching/understanding the game and comparing players that was has gone out the window) knows The offense struggles when the offense flows through Pierce/West ect

Well the facts actually states otherwise. It shows that the offense doesn't really do that bad when Rondo isn't on the floor so apparently your eyes are deceiving you. Making you believe what you want to believe.


Heck, Just a couple yrs ago when the c's were having some chemistry issues and were having a tough time handing the offense too the young rondo, the celtics struggled...When Pierce and the rest finally decided too let rondo run the show..Guess what? NBA Finals

Well you're a blind homer so I'm not even going to debate this with you. You wouldn't even admit that Rose is better than Rondo so I just wont say anything about the Celts since you can only see/hear what you want and nothing else.

Corey
09-09-2011, 04:56 PM
lol...your the better speller ALLTHOUGH...Here's a list of Icons who couldn't spell....

-GEORGE WASHINGTON

-WOODROW WILSON

-GEORGE PATTON

- ZACHARY TAYLOR


Also, did you know 25 billionaires, 8 U.S Presidents, 55 best selling authors, 10 noble prize winners have dropped out of hs?? Alot of times due too poor grades...


Guess what? Im just more simmilar too them than you...:D

And Me and Fraaaaaaaaank STILL have 10 times more Basketball/Celtics knowledge as you

Grammar.



I guess these are also flawed metrics right?

C'mon.

Of course it's flawed, it disagrees with what their eyes are seeing.

And Me and Fraaaaaaaaank STILL have 10 times more Basketball/Celtics knowledge as you
Yeah?! Well my mom makes better grilled cheese sandwiches than your mom!

:sigh:

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 05:00 PM
Well 22 out of the 30 teams use them and that number has obviously been growing. Not to mention that a lot of the teams that are more successful have stat guys on their payroll (the Celtics actually being one of the first). The Mavs, the NBA champion, had the first stat guy on the bench. So you may not be a big fan of advanced stats, but they're obviously being used in the NBA and its become almost universal (only 8 teams don't use advanced stats and I think of those 8 teams, they may actually have lower level guys).

I honestly don't see how you could make a case for Russell as the GOAT unless you only look at titles (in which case you could argue such stuff like Horry > MJ) and/or are a Celtics fan. That distinction belongs to MJ, which I think is obvious to almost everyone (stat guys or otherwise). Just see the #1 PSD poll.

PS- I've actually heard Danny Ainge reference pace adjusted stats in an interview on WEEI. So whether you like it or not, they are involved in basketball. May as well be at least willing to use them (not saying they should be the sole judge because obviously other stuff like psychology can play a role too)



PSD has an average age of what? 20? OF COURSE they don't rank guys like Russell high

But...Go into my Bill Russell thread..

It shows

1) The celtics defense BEFORE/AFTER Russell was meh..with Russell they led the league in drtg 12 times in 13 years and most of those years they were #1 by...A TON

2) The celtics offense was avg...and a lot of the times was BELOW AVERAGE

Soo..If a team has a below average offense/Average defense without someone..and with him they win titles 11 times in 13 years, that should tell you something..

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 05:03 PM
PSD has an average age of what? 20? OF COURSE they don't rank guys like Russell high

But...Go into my Bill Russell thread..

It shows

1) The celtics defense BEFORE/AFTER Russell was meh..with Russell they led the league in drtg 12 times in 13 years and most of those years they were #1 by...A TON

2) The celtics offense was avg...and a lot of the times was BELOW AVERAGE

Soo..If a team has a below average offense/Average defense without someone..and with him they win titles 11 times in 13 years, that should tell you something..

Did someone say something about a contradiction earlier? In that ENTIRE thread the only metric you used to gauge offensive vs defensive worth was what? Win Shares

Don't come bashing advanced stats now when you base your entire arguments on them without being able to put them into proper perspective. That's why Chronz had to take you to school a bit.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 05:04 PM
Did someone say something about a contradiction earlier?


Or maybe i know u guys like your metric stats...so why not use something u guys relate too?

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 05:05 PM
Read my Russell post...and than tell me HOW hes not top 5

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 05:08 PM
Read my Russell post...and than tell me HOW hes not top 5

This is a Rondo thread get your agenda out of here and reply to the posts about Rondo.

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 05:10 PM
Or maybe i know u guys like your metric stats...so why not use something u guys relate too?

You are contradicting yourself every time. You used those stats before us guys even debated you. You used it as your argument as to why Russell is the G.O.A.T.

Only when it makes your player look good you use them but when it doesn't you shoot them down. :pity:

Corey
09-09-2011, 05:12 PM
Read my Russell post...and than tell me HOW hes not top 5

Not your post, you stole it from another website.

PatsSoxKnicks
09-09-2011, 05:13 PM
Read my Russell post...and than tell me HOW hes not top 5

I thought you were trying to make a case for him as GOAT?

Also, I noticed you ignored everything else in my first post, ya know the part where I basically told you about how widely used analytics are in the NBA and how your favorite team was one of the first teams to start using advanced stats.

But of course you won't address that since the Celts are your team and they're view on advanced metrics contradicts your view.

PatsSoxKnicks
09-09-2011, 05:16 PM
Or maybe i know u guys like your metric stats...so why not use something u guys relate too?

You do realize the Celtics use metrics stats too right? They have a whole team devoted to it and they were one of the first teams to have an analytics department.

For what its worth, the Knicks are one of the teams that don't really use advanced stats. And so I could sit there and try to be like the waves of Knicks fans who argue Melo is top 5, but I don't because thats quite ridiculous.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 05:18 PM
I thought you were trying to make a case for him as GOAT?

Also, I noticed you ignored everything else in my first post, ya know the part where I basically told you about how widely used analytics are in the NBA and how your favorite team was one of the first teams to start using advanced stats.

But of course you won't address that since the Celts are your team and they're view on advanced metrics contradicts your view.


I don't care about using metrics..They can be of value..But people who make it sound like it tells the whole story are foolish..

Some players can greatly influence a game without it showing up in the box score....

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 05:20 PM
This is a Rondo thread get your agenda out of here and reply to the posts about Rondo.


I was giving an EXAMPLE on how Advanced stats don't always tell the whole story...which is why i gave an EXAMPLE on how according too advanced stats, Bill Russell doesn't seem too great

PatsSoxKnicks
09-09-2011, 05:23 PM
I don't care about using metrics..They can be of value..But people who make it sound like it tells the whole story are foolish..

I don't think anyone's ever said that. As I said earlier, psychology is a big part of the game. Personally, I love the approach the Mavs took, where they had a full-time analytics guy on the bench AND a sports psychologist. A lot of players don't have the mental aspect need in basketball and obviously thats tough to measure.



Some players can greatly influence a game without it showing up in the box score....

Which is exactly what RAPM is trying to measure...

Thats the whole idea behind trying to develop and improve upon the +/- metrics. But of course, you can't only use +/- stats, just like you can't only use box score metrics.

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 05:26 PM
I was giving an EXAMPLE on how Advanced stats don't always tell the whole story...which is why i gave an EXAMPLE on how according too advanced stats, Bill Russell doesn't seem too great

Examples? You gave nothing. Certain advanced stats don't tell you what you want to hear. You want all the stats to tell you that Russell is the G.O.A.T. and Rondo is the 3rd best PG in the NBA. Well guess what they wouldn't.

Advanced stats surely don't tell the whole story, nor do basic stats nor does your eye (which may be the worst of them all since you're so biased) nor do articles, nor does film. What tells the whole story is when you get a comprehensive understanding of them all. Then you do your best to fairly put it all together.

However since you're incapable of being fair and always have a Celtic agenda you'd never be able to do such. :pity:

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 05:29 PM
You are contradicting yourself every time. You used those stats before us guys even debated you. You used it as your argument as to why Russell is the G.O.A.T.

Only when it makes your player look good you use them but when it doesn't you shoot them down. :pity:



I didn't use Advanced stats as my WHOLE argument...

In my 2 pages of Russell..I use


1) DRTG BEFORE/DURING/AFTER Russell

2) Win shares

3) Offensive support FG% (basic stat)

4) Brought up SEVERAL examples on his impact

- 2 biggest losing streaks were when he was hurt

- How most of his teammates DWS'S Jumped due too Russell, sometimes up too 2 times the aomunt



I used Several EXAMPLES using BASIC/ADVANCTED stats and used Examples of impact...not just 1..

PatsSoxKnicks
09-09-2011, 05:31 PM
I was giving an EXAMPLE on how Advanced stats don't always tell the whole story...which is why i gave an EXAMPLE on how according too advanced stats, Bill Russell doesn't seem too great

I could actually agree with you here. I think that if the data was available to calculate RAPM, Russell would end up looking really good in it, which is why its a shame that some of the +/- data needed for pre-2000 isn't available. I would guess a guy like Russell would end up being really good in that.

The thing you have to understand is you really can't lump all advanced stats together. Some of them try to measure different things. Some of them take completely different approaches. Some of them flat out disagree with other metrics (like Wins Produced vs. PER).

Corey
09-09-2011, 05:33 PM
I didn't use Advanced stats as my WHOLE argument...

In my 2 pages of Russell..I use


1) DRTG BEFORE/DURING/AFTER Russell

2) Win shares

3) Offensive support FG% (basic stat)

4) Brought up SEVERAL examples on his impact

- 2 biggest losing streaks were when he was hurt

- How most of his teammates DWS'S Jumped due too Russell, sometimes up too 2 times the aomunt



I used Several EXAMPLES using BASIC/ADVANCTED stats and used Examples of impact...not just 1..

You didn't USE anything, you stole a post from a user on a different website.

PatsSoxKnicks
09-09-2011, 05:35 PM
You didn't USE anything, you stole a post from a user on a different website.

Really? From which site?

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 05:35 PM
Examples? You gave nothing. Certain advanced stats don't tell you what you want to hear. You want all the stats to tell you that Russell is the G.O.A.T. and Rondo is the 3rd best PG in the NBA. Well guess what they wouldn't.

Advanced stats surely don't tell the whole story, nor do basic stats nor does your eye (which may be the worst of them all since you're so biased) nor do articles, nor does film. What tells the whole story is when you get a comprehensive understanding of them all. Then you do your best to fairly put it all together.

However since you're incapable of being fair and always have a Celtic agenda you'd never be able to do such. :pity:


Biased? If both contracts weren't an issue id trade rondo for paul/Williams in a heartbeat

Nash is ageing quite a bit ...and I said Rose for Rondo would hurt BOTH TEAMS (The celtics don't need a score first pg) and would kill the celtics chemistry

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 05:35 PM
I didn't use Advanced stats as my WHOLE argument...

In my 2 pages of Russell..I use


1) DRTG BEFORE/DURING/AFTER Russell

2) Win shares

3) Offensive support FG% (basic stat)

4) Brought up SEVERAL examples on his impact

- 2 biggest losing streaks were when he was hurt

- How most of his teammates DWS'S Jumped due too Russell, sometimes up too 2 times the aomunt



I used Several EXAMPLES using BASIC/ADVANCTED stats and used Examples of impact...not just 1..

Whatever I could care less about you and you are derailing your own thread.

You still haven't replied to my post on Rondo I.E. what this whole thread is about.

Get back on topic and defend your stance.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 05:37 PM
You didn't USE anything, you stole a post from a user on a different website.


You do realize some of that stuff...Is actually from me?? I am apart of a few diff forums...jsyk...

and technically..most of the stuff you know..you "stole"..

Heck the guy that posted that advanced stat graph..He "stole"

Your just all flustered becaus of my great Bill Russell post and you don't want everyone too see the greatness

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 05:39 PM
Biased? If both contracts weren't an issue id trade rondo for paul/Williams in a heartbeat

Nash is ageing quite a bit ...and I said Rose for Rondo would hurt BOTH TEAMS (The celtics don't need a score first pg) and would kill the celtics chemistry

This is exactly my point. If you don't see it then it's a damn shame but you're blind so that would not surprise me.

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 05:40 PM
You do realize some of that stuff...Is actually from me?? I am apart of a few diff forums...jsyk...

and technically..most of the stuff you know..you "stole"..

Heck the guy that posted that advanced stat graph..He "stole"

Your just all flustered becaus of my great Bill Russell post and you don't want everyone too see the greatness

Its against the rules AND you attempted to claim them as your own. None of us claim those stats as ours.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 05:42 PM
Whatever I could care less about you and you are derailing your own thread.

You still haven't replied to my post on Rondo I.E. what this whole thread is about.

Get back on topic and defend your stance.


Im "derailing" Becaus people like you like too think advanced stats are the end all too be all...

Rondo is above average too elite in basically everything BUT shooting...This is more factual than anything

The celtics are also a better offense when it runs through Rondo, again, thats just more so common sense

Too people who say the celtics use advanced stats, If Rondo is SO BAD with advanced stats, why do they play him? Why did they give him 55 mill at age 23?? Maybe becaus even THEY KNOW, advanced stats arn't everything

PatsSoxKnicks
09-09-2011, 05:43 PM
Its against the rules AND you attempted to claim them as your own. None of us claim those stats as ours.

Yeah, and when I posted that in the NBA Stats forum, I actually had to do a little work (taking out guys with low minute totals etc.) lol

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 05:44 PM
Its against the rules AND you attempted to claim them as your own. None of us claim those stats as ours.

When did I EVER say i came up with 100% of that info?

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 05:49 PM
Im "derailing" Becaus people like you like too think advanced stats are the end all too be all...

1. I said just a few posts earlier

Advanced stats surely don't tell the whole story, nor do basic stats nor does your eye (which may be the worst of them all since you're so biased) nor do articles, nor does film. What tells the whole story is when you get a comprehensive understanding of them all. Then you do your best to fairly put it all together.


Rondo is above average too elite in basically everything BUT shooting...This is more factual than anything

That's not true but whatever.


The celtics are also a better offense when it runs through Rondo, again, thats just more so common sense

The same can also be said for about 29 other teams and their starting PGs this is pointless.


Too people who say the celtics use advanced stats, If Rondo is SO BAD with advanced stats, why do they play him? Why did they give him 55 mill at age 23?? Maybe becaus even THEY KNOW, advanced stats arn't everything

No one says he's bad he's pretty good actually but he's not the player you make him to be.

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 05:50 PM
Yeah, and when I posted that in the NBA Stats forum, I actually had to do a little work (taking out guys with low minute totals etc.) lol

I we can't thank you enough. I know it wasn't easy either. :laugh2:

PatsSoxKnicks
09-09-2011, 05:54 PM
Im "derailing" Becaus people like you like too think advanced stats are the end all too be all...

Rondo is above average too elite in basically everything BUT shooting...This is more factual than anything

The celtics are also a better offense when it runs through Rondo, again, thats just more so common sense

Too people who say the celtics use advanced stats, If Rondo is SO BAD with advanced stats, why do they play him? Why did they give him 55 mill at age 23?? Maybe becaus even THEY KNOW, advanced stats arn't everything

I actually never said that. And if you think I did, maybe you should learn to read.

The Celtics DO use advanced stats. Do you want proof? And who said Rondo is bad with advanced stats? :confused: I'm not even sure what you're arguing to be honest.

And no one has said Rondo can't develop. He is, as you pointed out, only 23. I would bet thats a big reason why they locked up, along with actually having some good advanced #'s (which as I've tried to explain to you is such a broad term, there are MANY different advanced metrics that measure different things).

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 05:55 PM
1. I said just a few posts earlier




That's not true but whatever.



The same can also be said for about 29 other teams and their starting PGs this is pointless.



No one says he's bad he's pretty good actually but he's not the player you make him to be.


I said Paul/Williams are better

I ALSO said I wouldn't trade rondo for nash due too age (Who ever would is an idiot)

I ALSO said Trading Rondo for rose would Hurt BOTH teams..

You guys claim the celtics are loaded with shooters..Than you guys tell me trading a pass first pg for a shot 1st pg HELPS Boston..hmmmm

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 05:57 PM
I actually never said that. And if you think I did, maybe you should learn to read.

The Celtics DO use advanced stats. Do you want proof? And who said Rondo is bad with advanced stats? :confused: I'm not even sure what you're arguing to be honest.

And no one has said Rondo can't develop. He is, as you pointed out, only 23. I would bet thats a big reason why they locked up, along with actually having some good advanced #'s (which as I've tried to explain to you is such a broad term, there are MANY different advanced metrics that measure different things).


And with that said...Id gain more info on Basketball talking too a guy like Russell than I would with who ever wrote that book...

PatsSoxKnicks
09-09-2011, 05:59 PM
I said Paul/Williams are better

I ALSO said I wouldn't trade rondo for nash due too age (Who ever would is an idiot)

I ALSO said Trading Rondo for rose would Hurt BOTH teams..

You guys claim the celtics are loaded with shooters..Than you guys tell me trading a pass first pg for a shot 1st pg HELPS Boston..hmmmm

I haven't mentioned Rose once this thread. However, I do think he probably has a higher ceiling, and believe me, I've grown to dislike him a lot due to the raging Bulls homers on this site.

And again, I don't know what you're arguing. The thread title says Rondo is underrated. So then where do we rate him so that he's underrated?

Are you trying to suggest he's better than Rose? I think thats kind of tough to say at this point. Currently as constructed, Rondo might fit better with the Cs but the big 3 won't be around forever, so I'm sure the Celts would be willing to do that trade (Rondo for Rose if they were to blow up the team).

PatsSoxKnicks
09-09-2011, 06:01 PM
I we can't thank you enough. I know it wasn't easy either. :laugh2:

Actually, it wasn't that hard lol. Just threw it in an excel spreadsheet and sorted it by minutes.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 06:04 PM
I haven't mentioned Rose once this thread. However, I do think he probably has a higher ceiling, and believe me, I've grown to dislike him a lot due to the raging Bulls homers on this site.

And again, I don't know what you're arguing. The thread title says Rondo is underrated. So then where do we rate him so that he's underrated?

Are you trying to suggest he's better than Rose? I think thats kind of tough to say at this point. Currently as constructed, Rondo might fit better with the Cs but the big 3 won't be around forever, so I'm sure the Celts would be willing to do that trade (Rondo for Rose if they were to blow up the team).


Im more so arguing with people who thought i was an idiot when i said Rondo was below Paul/Williams and than it becomes debatable

You have been actually fair..You use advanced stats, but Don't use it as an end all to be all stat

However, honestly, I think Auerbach/Wooden are 1000000000 times smarter about basketball even if they don't know 1 single advanced stat over some of the hardcore stat guys teams have

Corey
09-09-2011, 06:13 PM
Really? From which site?

Cant say publicly due to the rules here, but it's probably the most prominent Celtics-oriented blog site (on their forum)

Corey
09-09-2011, 06:15 PM
However, honestly, I think Auerbach/Wooden are 1000000000 times smarter about basketball even if they don't know 1 single advanced stat over some of the hardcore stat guys teams have

They were more intelligent and innovative than their peers were at the time, but times change. As the years go by, the technology and information evolves. If you somehow rose Red from the grave, and tossed him into a GM role today, he wouldn't be nearly as successful because the way he ran shop simply wouldn't work in today's game.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 06:17 PM
They were more intelligent and innovative than their peers were at the time, but times change. As the years go by, the technology and information evolves. If you somehow rose Red from the grave, and tossed him into a GM role today, he wouldn't be nearly as successful because the way he ran shop simply wouldn't work in today's game.


Personally..If i was the owner of a team and I had a chance at having a healthy Red Auerbach willing too be the coach of my Basketball team...NOOOOOOOO way im saying no

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 06:29 PM
I said Paul/Williams are better

I ALSO said I wouldn't trade rondo for nash due too age (Who ever would is an idiot)

I ALSO said Trading Rondo for rose would Hurt BOTH teams..

You guys claim the celtics are loaded with shooters..Than you guys tell me trading a pass first pg for a shot 1st pg HELPS Boston..hmmmm

Again all this does is show your bias. That's all I am saying.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 06:35 PM
Again all this does is show your bias. That's all I am saying.


- I said Williams/Paul were better (Not biased)

- I said I didn't want too trade my 25 yr old PG for a guy that has over a decade on him and is running out of gas (Thats more common sense than anything)

- I said trading an elite facilitator for a shot first pg would HURT Boston

How is this "biased"?

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 06:40 PM
- I said Williams/Paul were better (Not biased)

- I said I didn't want too trade my 25 yr old PG for a guy that has over a decade on him and is running out of gas (Thats more common sense than anything)

- I said trading an elite facilitator for a shot first pg would HURT Boston

How is this "biased"?

At no point during any of these have I asked you about Boston. NO point. I asked simply "who is the better player?" You said you were not aware that one player should be seen as better than another right after you said Williams and Paul are.

Don't speak to me about common sense when you don't have any of your own. Simple question of who is better you keep telling me about Boston and a trade wouldn't make sense. I NEVER asked that question. I could care less quite frankly.

I don't care about Boston. The question has nothing to do with Boston. But you'll never answer the question.

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 07:03 PM
i said it was debatable....with 2 players COMPLETELY diff...and both are elite at what they do...its hard too say one is a lot better than the other

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 07:10 PM
i said it was debatable....with 2 players COMPLETELY diff...and both are elite at what they do...its hard too say one is a lot better than the other

No one is asking if one is a lot better than another. You are biased and you are afraid to admit the truth. You don't even want to have the debate. Be a man :pity:

Bos_Sports4Life
09-09-2011, 07:30 PM
No one is asking if one is a lot better than another. You are biased and you are afraid to admit the truth. You don't even want to have the debate. Be a man :pity:

Whats there too debate?? Ones a better scorer and the other is the better facilitator

Swashcuff
09-09-2011, 09:19 PM
Whats there too debate?? Ones a better scorer and the other is the better facilitator

Which is the better player?

Tony_Starks
09-09-2011, 09:23 PM
What about the Rondo affect of his defender completely roaming on defense as they ignore his horrendous jumper and dare him to shoot?

Corey
09-09-2011, 09:55 PM
What about the Rondo affect of his defender completely roaming on defense as they ignore his horrendous jumper and dare him to shoot?

How dare you bring up a point that discounts the best player in the NBA?

PatsSoxKnicks
09-09-2011, 11:32 PM
And with that said...Id gain more info on Basketball talking too a guy like Russell than I would with who ever wrote that book...

So because Russell played basketball, he knows more about evaluating players? How'd that work out for Michael Jordan? The GOAT picked Kwame Brown. Nice talent evaluation :rolleyes: Or would you go up to Jalen Rose and say he knows more then your average joe schmo because he played basketball? Most of the time, he sounds like a blithering idiot. Just because you played basketball and were good in the NBA, doesn't mean you have any clue on how to evaluate players. They are 2 completely different skills.

Also, for what its worth, the guy who wrote that book DID play basketball. Granted at the D3 level, but he played. He was also a longtime coach in basketball. Honestly, at least wiki the guy before claiming to know anything about him.

And :pity: at judging a book by its cover basically.

Besides, have you ever talked to either of them? So how would you know?

Just because you were a great player, it doesn't mean you know how to evaluate players. And again, the Celtics have a pretty large analytics staff, you should probably come to grips with that...

3mikee_
09-09-2011, 11:47 PM
Great PG, one of the best in the league... but I don't think he's underrated at all. He's got all the accolades and achievements and stats to prove what he is... which is a great passing PG who plays good defense.

To be honest, I feel like on any other team that doesn't really emphasize defense and team play like Boston does, Rondo is no where near where he's at right now. I don't really see him being able to dish out that many assists without having 3 legitimate future HOF'ers on the receiving end. Just saying..

PatsSoxKnicks
09-09-2011, 11:49 PM
Im more so arguing with people who thought i was an idiot when i said Rondo was below Paul/Williams and than it becomes debatable

You have been actually fair..You use advanced stats, but Don't use it as an end all to be all stat

However, honestly, I think Auerbach/Wooden are 1000000000 times smarter about basketball even if they don't know 1 single advanced stat over some of the hardcore stat guys teams have

I do think Rose is better than Rondo right now. Before last year, I think it was debatable but I think Rose has passed Rondo after the year he just had. And most teams probably would take Rose if they wanted to start a franchise/build a team. However, Rondo is obviously a perfect fit with the Celts as they need more of a distributor vs. a creator. They have the big 3 and so Rondo is the better fit with the Celtics then Rose is. That is right now.

However, eventually the big 3 will be blown up, in which case, I'm sure the Celts would love to trade Rondo for Rose.

By all means, continue to show your ignorance on the brilliance of Dean Oliver but the following was said of his book by the great Dean Smith:

"Oliver's book provides insightful framework for basketball....This book is a unique and surprisingly practical addition to a coach's library."

Thats right, the legendary Dean Smith said this about Oliver. Obviously, he knows more then you give him credit for, especially as he was immediately hired away after the book came out. Not to mention he's extremely influential in the stat community, which as I said, has a presence on 22 teams (including your Celtics).

And again, I'm not saying advanced stats are the end all be all (in fact, Oliver even says in his book, there is no holy grail for stats) but to completely disregard them and disregard one of the better basketball minds is foolish imo.

And as I pointed out earlier, 2 of his picks/trade that he made look like they'll be pretty good picks (Lawson and Afflalo- must've been pushing for him in the trade unless I misremembered something) especially considering where Lawson was drafted.

PS- I'm pretty sure Dean doesn't call himself an advanced stat guy (or whatever you're trying to refer to him as), rather he looks at himself as an analytics guy, focused on answering basketball questions and finding new ways to analyze a player (since it is a pretty inexact science, no one is perfect in that regard).

Hustlenomics
09-10-2011, 12:28 AM
Why is Rondo getting so much love when the team's offense actually performs better when Paul, Allen or KG is on the floor as opposed to Rondo?

Offense Per 100 Possesions.

Player ON Court OFF Court Net
Paul Pierce 111.7 97.8 +13.9
Kevin Garnett 112.1 101.8 +10.3
Ray Allen 110.3 100.2 +10.1
Rajon Rondo 111.0 101.5 +9.5

Hell the Celtics are even better defensively when Rondo is off the floor than when he's on.

RAPM (regularized adjusted +/-)

Name O/100 D/100 O+D/200
Garnett, Kevin 1.7 3.9 5.5
Pierce, Paul 1.8 2.4 4.1
Allen, Ray 1.1 1.2 2.2
Rondo, Rajon 1.1 0.9 2.0

So to the Celtics homer who keeps trying to act like the only reason the Big 3 are so good is because of Rondo. Be quiet.
can you give a year or a date to these stats? because everytime the bench comes in the Celtics lose their lead quickly..it's happened damn near every game this season

PatsSoxKnicks
09-10-2011, 12:31 AM
can you give a year or a date to these stats? because everytime the bench comes in the Celtics lose their lead quickly..it's happened damn near every game this season

Those stats support your assertion, so I'm not understanding why you think it doesn't?? The only thing it doesn't support is that in relation to KG, Pierce and Allen, Rondo's +/- numbers aren't as good. But obviously, when the bench comes in, the offense is going to do worse. But the same is true for the big 3 too.

Hustlenomics
09-10-2011, 12:50 AM
Those stats support your assertion, so I'm not understanding why you think it doesn't?? The only thing it doesn't support is that in relation to KG, Pierce and Allen, Rondo's +/- numbers aren't as good. But obviously, when the bench comes in, the offense is going to do worse. But the same is true for the big 3 too.

the way sted that he came off as saying Rondo makes the Celtics worse and they play better on both sides when he's not in which isn't true at all

PatsSoxKnicks
09-10-2011, 01:05 AM
the way sted that he came off as saying Rondo makes the Celtics worse and they play better on both sides when he's not in which isn't true at all

Those numbers didn't indicate that though. Rondo was on the plus side (meaning the team is worse when he's on the bench).

Bos_Sports4Life
09-10-2011, 02:16 AM
They were more intelligent and innovative than their peers were at the time, but times change. As the years go by, the technology and information evolves. If you somehow rose Red from the grave, and tossed him into a GM role today, he wouldn't be nearly as successful because the way he ran shop simply wouldn't work in today's game.

Red Was what...The best GM in the nba until the mid 80's??

So Red was The best gm in the game from '66-'84...But he couldn't handle "todays nba". Give me a break

Heck, he was the best gm in the game even in the modern nba

- Drafted Cowens, Jo Jo White, Westpha and Don Chaney ect in the 70's

- Drafted Larry Bird a Year early (Lot of people dissagreed with the move)

- Traded the #1 pick (Joe Barry carroll) and the #13 pick (Ricky Brown) For the #3 pick (Kevin Mchale) and Robert Parrish.

- Managed too end up with the #2 pick even with an elite team and ended up with a very talented prospect in Len Bias, very unlucky though

- Also during the 70's-80's he named 2 diff hof celtics as Head coaches who combined for 4 titles.

He also had too deal with his idiot owner that decided too ship what, 3 1st rounders for mcadoo?


Soo..If the man was the best in the NBA at building teams in the 60's, 70's, and 80's...I don't see how "he couldnt handle todays nba"...

If he was able too adjust from the 60's too the 80's..why couldn't he adjust from the 80's too now?? Im pretty sure hes earned the benefit of the doubt since he was the man behind 16 titles, heck, he hired ainge i believe, so you might as well say he was apart of the 17th also...

LakersMaster24
09-10-2011, 03:03 AM
No one is asking if one is a lot better than another. You are biased and you are afraid to admit the truth. You don't even want to have the debate. Be a man :pity:

:laugh::laugh::laugh: Bro its a forum...it doesnt make you any manlier if you debate in a thread for pages...

Swashcuff
09-10-2011, 07:56 AM
can you give a year or a date to these stats? because everytime the bench comes in the Celtics lose their lead quickly..it's happened damn near every game this season

I'd do you better. Here are the links

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking11
^ that's for their RAPM inclusive of the post season.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10BOS14.HTM#onoff
http://www.82games.com/1011/10BOS10.HTM#onoff
http://www.82games.com/1011/10BOS7.HTM#onoff
http://www.82games.com/1011/10BOS2.HTM#onoff

on and off #s. As you can clearly see the Celts are better when Rondo is on the floor than when he isn't (at least on offense that is). However that's not what's being debated what's being debated is his team value relative the each member of the big 3.

Hustlenomics
09-10-2011, 10:30 AM
^ those numbers show when Rondo is on defense with Big Baby down low?

Corey
09-10-2011, 10:56 AM
^ those numbers show when Rondo is on defense with Big Baby down low?

You hate Glen Davis so much :laugh:

Swashcuff
09-10-2011, 01:51 PM
^ those numbers show when Rondo is on defense with Big Baby down low?

http://www.82games.com/1011/10BOS2.HTM#5man

That does.

Corey
09-11-2011, 04:55 PM
Swash wins :hide:

MGB
09-11-2011, 10:20 PM
did the Celtics forum get closed?

Hustlenomics
09-12-2011, 01:00 AM
http://www.82games.com/1011/10BOS2.HTM#5man

That does.

Big Baby is trash

Corey
09-12-2011, 07:05 AM
Big Baby is trash

Youre blinded by a bad month, like many other celtic fans.

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 09:25 AM
Big Baby is trash

I'd gladly take Big Baby off your hands and give you Marreese Speights. Gladly. He sure as hell aint trash actually from those #s it shows that he isn't half bad actually.

Hustlenomics
09-12-2011, 09:35 AM
^ Speights has higher potential than Big Baby, I would do that in a heartbeat
Corey I'm not blinded by the crap I seen Baby do on the court this season

Corey
09-12-2011, 10:01 AM
^ Speights has higher potential than Big Baby, I would do that in a heartbeat
Corey I'm not blinded by the crap I seen Baby do on the court this season

I already proved your assertions of davis to be fac utally incorrect at the end of the season ib the Cs forum. Also factor in that we're over the cap and old, so a player that already knows our system is valuable to us in a year when were going to have to fill out the roster with absolute scrubs.

Swashcuff
09-12-2011, 10:21 AM
^ Speights has higher potential than Big Baby, I would do that in a heartbeat
Corey I'm not blinded by the crap I seen Baby do on the court this season

I wish you were the Celtics GM.

Corey
09-12-2011, 12:07 PM
I don't lol