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phlp_bj
09-04-2011, 10:06 AM
Hello Everyone,

Welcome to the playoff voting for the PSD NBA Redraft. Every year we basketball fans enjoy taking part in a PSD game called the NBA redraft where over 60 users participate. The point of the redraft is to draft the best team possible and the obvious goal is to be crowned champion by the NBA forum. You will notice that the team name do not represent current NBA teams. The reason why we avoided this is because we wanted to avoid a bias that exists with current team names. For example, a team that had the Chicago Bulls team name would probably experience a higher volume of votes than letís say the Memphis Grizzlies team simply because they have the larger fan base on PSD. As a result we got rid of that bias completely. Please take the time to review both teams, look at the depth chart and read the write ups to formalize your own opinion on which team would win a 7 game series. As far as injuries go, they will not be playing a factor in this Redraft though players that are continually hurt and have not had a healthy season in quite some time should be viewed as different players than what they once were (Yao, Oden, Roy etc). Thank you for voting and enjoy the match ups.

1) Madison vs. 8) Louisville

Madison has home-court advantage

Madison Clubhouse (http://prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18769662&postcount=15)
Louisville Clubhouse (http://prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18768989&postcount=8)

Madison Depth Chart:
C: Tim Duncan || Kurt Thomas
PF: Antawn Jamison || Dante Cunningham || Craig Smith
SF: Carmelo Anthony || Rasual Butler || Kawhi Leonard
SG: Raja Bell || Leandro Barbosa
PG: Kyle Lowry || Jordan Farmar

Louisville Depth Chart:
PG: Ty Lawson (34) || Beno Udrih (14)
SG: Vince Carter (32) || Keith Bogans (16)
SF: Rudy Gay (38) || Luc Mbah a Moute (10)
PF: Kenyon Martin (30) || Hakim Warrick (12) || Luc Mbah a Moute (6) || Juwan Howard(0)
C: Andrew Bynum (33) || Josh McRoberts (15) , Tony Battie

Louisville Writeup:

To start, Iíd like to thank Phlp for running such a smooth redraft and making it a fun experience. He did a great job and would love to see him commish another game soon. Now to the fun stuff:

Overview:
While Madisonís team is quite talented, the match-ups are much closer than you might think. We have 2 big strengths on this team; depth and balance. We can go 10 deep and have the ability to run several different looks at Madison. Rudy Gay and Andrew Bynum can match up with almost any duo in the redraft and create an effective 1-2 punch on both ends of the floor. All we ask of voters is to take a look at the write-ups and match-ups before voting and not automatically assume the 1 seed will win.

Offensive Game-plan:
With two players as talented as Gay and Bynum, it doesnít take a genius to see whoís going to get the ball in the half-court. Gay is a proven #1 option and can score from everywhere on the floor. He also had tremendous success last season against Carmelo averaging 23.5/4.5/4 on 53% shooting. Gay will force Carmelo to work on D which significantly hurts Madison as they have to depend on him offensively. Bynum by most knowledgeable basketball minds is the 2nd best Center on both ends of the court. On this squad, he finally gets to be the go-to post option and doesnít have a Pau Gasol or Lamar Odom taking touches away from him. Duncan is one of the greatest of all time on both ends of the court, but is simply not the same player anymore as shown last season in both the regular season and playoffs. Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph feasted on him in the playoffs and he really showed his age trying to keep up with them. Being another year older and trying to slow down Bynum will certainly test Duncan. Aside from Gay and Bynum, the big match-up we want to exploit is the Vince Carter- Raja Bell match-up. Madison will likely try to play up that he can be a defensive presence who can hit a 3 which is just completely wrong. Synergy had Raja Bell ranked 408th in overall defense last season while shooting his lowest 3 point % since the 2001-2002 season. He simply is not an NBA caliber starter and hasnít been for a couple of years. Vince has lost a couple steps yes, but he can still put up 15-18 points a game on solid efficiency. These 3 match-ups will play a huge role and having them supplemented by outstanding shooters like Ty Lawson and Beno Udrih, Louisville will be able to score on Madison.

Defensive Game-plan:
It all starts with our Post Defense and Andrew Bynum. Kenyon Martin and Bynum will make penetration quite difficult for guys like Lowry and will significantly limit the offensive games of Jamison and Duncan. Duncanís non-existent offensive game last year as been well documented and going against one of the best interior defensive players will certainly not help him overcome those struggles. Jamison who is the 2nd option for this Madison squad just came off his worst offensive season in over 10 years. Thereís no completely shutting down a superstar like Carmelo, but having Rudy Gay-Martin-Bynum will certainly make Carmelo more of a jump shooter. Luc Mbah a Moute and Bogans off the bench should not be forgotten as they are both excellent defenders and will have a big impact in this series. Forcing Melo into being a jump-shooter and limiting the penetration of Lowry will hurt Madisonís offensive production.

X-factor: The Benches
People when voting tend to forget that the starting 5ís cannot play all 48 minutes. This in mind, the bench is where we hold a significant factor over Madison. They have 2 solid bench piece where one is pushing 40 years old. My bench on the other hand has 5 guys who contributed significantly to their clubs last season and can be major factors come game time. Hakim Warrick and Beno Udrih are two of the better offensive options off the bench in basketball and offer efficient scoring. Mbah a Moute is slowly but surely becoming one of the better defenders in basketball and can effectively guard 3 positions. Bogans and Juwan Howard offer veteran presence and Mcroberts gives a good all around bench big with efficient scoring. Because Madison has 3 starters above the age of 34, they will be forced to use their bench more than most squads and thus will significantly be less of a threat.

Conclusion:
Once again, thank you to Phlp for running a fun Redraft. Also, Iíd like to congratulate Madison Gmís for putting together a formidable squad. We feel however that we match-up well with them and have the depth to overcome the talent difference in the starting 5ís. Even then, we can mitigate a lot of the offensive talent they have. Please take a look at the match-ups and write-ups before you vote!

Madison write-up:

Congrats to Louisville for assembling a solid team but their road ends here.

Carmelo Anthony has always needed a leader on both ends who has experience in the playoffs and knows how to win to guide him. In comes Tim Duncan. He knows what it takes to win a chip and heíll make Melo work harder on defense and make sure he doesnít go shot happy in our half court offense. To complement our two front court stars we have added stretch power forward Antawn Jamison. Jamison can still score the ball from anywhere on the court and is an ideal fit next to Carmelo and Duncan because of his ability to stretch the floor and let Melo and Duncan operate in the mid-range and paint area. At PG is up-and-coming PG Kyle Lowry. Lowry had a breakout year this year on the Rockets and can explode for a triple double any game. He is a do it all point guard who plays very tough defense. Next to Carmelo and Lowry we have Raja Bell starting at SG. Bell has regressed a bit as seen in his shooting numbers, but he will have his work cut out for him on this team. He will defend the opposing teamís best wing and do what he does best: play tough defense and get under his opponentís skin. On offense, he will be expected to hit the three pointer for the most part.

Offensive End:
On offense, Madison will be an extremely hard team to stop. We have a number one scorer in Carmelo Anthony, a legit post option in Tim Duncan, a stretch, scoring four in Jamison and a top 12 PG in Lowry mixed in with Raja Bellís three point shooting and Barbosaís scoring prowess off the bench. Lowry will be handling the ball most of the game and unlike his team in Houston, he will have a ton of potent offensive weapons to dish to. If anyone dares to double Melo when he gets hot, either Jamison will have an open shot, Lowry a driving lane, Duncan an easy bucket at the rim or Bell an open three pointer. There are too many options on this team for doubles to be effective, and we have possibly the best one on one scorer in the NBA in Carmelo Anthony. Rudy Gay has not shown the ability to stop him in previous matchups as Melo has recorded 29 pts per game on 47% shooting in their last 6 matchups. Duncan and Bynum will be an interesting matchup in the post, but in a seven game series we feel that we have the advantage down low. Duncanís savvy on both ends will end up in foul trouble for Bynum and if he gets in foul trouble in comes Josh McRoberts, who is not a center at all. Jamison will be matched up with Kenyon Martin, another player who has trouble staying on the floor. He recorded barely 26 minutes per game this year and has a history of injury problems. Jamison on the other hand is still playing 33 minutes per game and contributing 18 points per contest. Jamisonís perimeter game will take Martin out of his comfort zone, which is in the paint and take away what Martin is best used for: his defense and rebounding. Jamison in their last three matchups has had his way with Martin, recording 24 points per game on 50% shooting while grabbing 9 boards while Martin averaged a mere 8 and 8, fouling out in their most recent meeting.

A matchup to look forward to is Lawson on Lowry. Lawson is not a great defender especially in the half court and Lowryís size can present a problem for him. Lawson will definitely have trouble trying to stop Lowry and his six foot, 205 pound frame. In addition, Barbosa can come in and be a spark off the bench to ignite the offense for this team and his speed and passing ability can present a problem for aging Vince Carter. Raja Bell can set up at the three point line and benefit from the presence of Jamison, Melo, Lowry and Duncan via open three point shots which he has shown the ability to know down (35% from deep)

Defensive End:
At PG, Lawson loves to run. However, Kmart, Bynum and VC would not benefit from that style of play at all. This takes away some of the effect of Lawson on the offensive end because he wonít be running with anyone except Rudy Gay the entire game. Kyle Lowry is a tenacious defender and would really make Lawson work on that end. At SG, Raja Bell will be able to play tough defense on VC. VC is also aging, so speed wonít be a factor which benefits Bell. Raja, in a seven game series, is a player that really gets under a playerís skin and can force bad decisions. At SF, Carmelo Anthony has historically defended Gay well. In their last six matchups Gay has only been able to garner 17 points per game. Kmart wonít be a huge factor on offense, and Jamison is an able defender so his effect should be minimal. At center, Bynum has had trouble when guarded by Duncan. In their last three matchups, Bynum averaged only 8 points per contest and was in foul trouble in two of those three games. He will have a lot of trouble with a veteran, tough defender in Duncan.

Bench:
To relieve Raja Bell we have former sixth man of the year Leandro Barbosa. Barbosa can come in and provide a spark off the bench and he can still score as evident by his 13 ppg on the raptors in a mere 24 minutes with a 54 TS%. Also off the bench is Kurt Thomas who has shown to still be able to contribute primarily on the defensive end and rebounding the ball. He can still hit the mid range jumper and is an ideal backup for Duncan and Jamison. Kawhi Leonard, Jordan Farmar and Dante Cunningham will have limited roles and we believe they will be able to fill them well. Farmar will need to relieve Lowry for about 10-15 per game at the PG spot and provide shooting. Cunningham will be an energy guy off the bench and though Kawhi Leonard is a rookie, we believe heíll be able to perform when called upon for about 10 minutes per game and bring defense and slashing ability in place of Carmelo. He clearly has the ability as evident by the Spurs, a win now team, trading a big contributor in George Hill for him. If Leonardís performance is not up to par we can plug in veteran Rasual Butler. Louisville also has a very capable bench, so this should be a good matchup.

In a seven game series, I just donít think Louisville can defeat Madison. We have too much starpower and experience to go down in round one. Duncanís leadership and ability on both ends and Meloís offensive dexterity will lead Madison past Louisville in 5-6 games.

Raps08-09 Champ
09-04-2011, 10:09 AM
Louisville matches up real well.

I still give it to Madison though.

Mr. Baller
09-04-2011, 10:14 AM
How does Louisville only have 11 players?

Anyway I need more time to think about it, Louisville matches up real well and Madison not doing a write up hurts.

Raps08-09 Champ
09-04-2011, 10:18 AM
Disqualify them for only having 11.

Corey
09-04-2011, 10:30 AM
I voted Louisville. They match up REALLY well, and they had a much better (obviously) writeup.

phlp_bj
09-04-2011, 10:44 AM
They have Battie too. I just overlooked him

PhillyLuver
09-04-2011, 10:52 AM
rosh doesnt need a writeup to win this one

MiamiWadeCounty
09-04-2011, 10:58 AM
Very good writeup by Louisville. I think Madison would still win, but since I could face one of these teams possibly in the future, I might refrain from voting.

roshan3ai
09-04-2011, 11:04 AM
**** I forgot to send in my writeup. I did mine though.

Please read it


Congrats to Louisville for assembling a solid team but their road ends here.

Carmelo Anthony has always needed a leader on both ends who has experience in the playoffs and knows how to win to guide him. In comes Tim Duncan. He knows what it takes to win a chip and he’ll make Melo work harder on defense and make sure he doesn’t go shot happy in our half court offense. To complement our two front court stars we have added stretch power forward Antawn Jamison. Jamison can still score the ball from anywhere on the court and is an ideal fit next to Carmelo and Duncan because of his ability to stretch the floor and let Melo and Duncan operate in the mid-range and paint area. At PG is up-and-coming PG Kyle Lowry. Lowry had a breakout year this year on the Rockets and can explode for a triple double any game. He is a do it all point guard who plays very tough defense. Next to Carmelo and Lowry we have Raja Bell starting at SG. Bell has regressed a bit as seen in his shooting numbers, but he will have his work cut out for him on this team. He will defend the opposing team’s best wing and do what he does best: play tough defense and get under his opponent’s skin. On offense, he will be expected to hit the three pointer for the most part.

Offensive End:
On offense, Madison will be an extremely hard team to stop. We have a number one scorer in Carmelo Anthony, a legit post option in Tim Duncan, a stretch, scoring four in Jamison and a top 12 PG in Lowry mixed in with Raja Bell’s three point shooting and Barbosa’s scoring prowess off the bench. Lowry will be handling the ball most of the game and unlike his team in Houston, he will have a ton of potent offensive weapons to dish to. If anyone dares to double Melo when he gets hot, either Jamison will have an open shot, Lowry a driving lane, Duncan an easy bucket at the rim or Bell an open three pointer. There are too many options on this team for doubles to be effective, and we have possibly the best one on one scorer in the NBA in Carmelo Anthony. Rudy Gay has not shown the ability to stop him in previous matchups as Melo has recorded 29 pts per game on 47% shooting in their last 6 matchups. Duncan and Bynum will be an interesting matchup in the post, but in a seven game series we feel that we have the advantage down low. Duncan’s savvy on both ends will end up in foul trouble for Bynum and if he gets in foul trouble in comes Josh McRoberts, who is not a center at all. Jamison will be matched up with Kenyon Martin, another player who has trouble staying on the floor. He recorded barely 26 minutes per game this year and has a history of injury problems. Jamison on the other hand is still playing 33 minutes per game and contributing 18 points per contest. Jamison’s perimeter game will take Martin out of his comfort zone, which is in the paint and take away what Martin is best used for: his defense and rebounding. Jamison in their last three matchups has had his way with Martin, recording 24 points per game on 50% shooting while grabbing 9 boards while Martin averaged a mere 8 and 8, fouling out in their most recent meeting.

A matchup to look forward to is Lawson on Lowry. Lawson is not a great defender especially in the half court and Lowry’s size can present a problem for him. Lawson will definitely have trouble trying to stop Lowry and his six foot, 205 pound frame. In addition, Barbosa can come in and be a spark off the bench to ignite the offense for this team and his speed and passing ability can present a problem for aging Vince Carter. Raja Bell can set up at the three point line and benefit from the presence of Jamison, Melo, Lowry and Duncan via open three point shots which he has shown the ability to know down (35% from deep)

Defensive End:
At PG, Lawson loves to run. However, Kmart, Bynum and VC would not benefit from that style of play at all. This takes away some of the effect of Lawson on the offensive end because he won’t be running with anyone except Rudy Gay the entire game. Kyle Lowry is a tenacious defender and would really make Lawson work on that end. At SG, Raja Bell will be able to play tough defense on VC. VC is also aging, so speed won’t be a factor which benefits Bell. Raja, in a seven game series, is a player that really gets under a player’s skin and can force bad decisions. At SF, Carmelo Anthony has historically defended Gay well. In their last six matchups Gay has only been able to garner 17 points per game. Kmart won’t be a huge factor on offense, and Jamison is an able defender so his effect should be minimal. At center, Bynum has had trouble when guarded by Duncan. In their last three matchups, Bynum averaged only 8 points per contest and was in foul trouble in two of those three games. He will have a lot of trouble with a veteran, tough defender in Duncan.

Bench:
To relieve Raja Bell we have former sixth man of the year Leandro Barbosa. Barbosa can come in and provide a spark off the bench and he can still score as evident by his 13 ppg on the raptors in a mere 24 minutes with a 54 TS%. Also off the bench is Kurt Thomas who has shown to still be able to contribute primarily on the defensive end and rebounding the ball. He can still hit the mid range jumper and is an ideal backup for Duncan and Jamison. Kawhi Leonard, Jordan Farmar and Dante Cunningham will have limited roles and we believe they will be able to fill them well. Farmar will need to relieve Lowry for about 10-15 per game at the PG spot and provide shooting. Cunningham will be an energy guy off the bench and though Kawhi Leonard is a rookie, we believe he’ll be able to perform when called upon for about 10 minutes per game and bring defense and slashing ability in place of Carmelo. He clearly has the ability as evident by the Spurs, a win now team, trading a big contributor in George Hill for him. If Leonard’s performance is not up to par we can plug in veteran Rasual Butler. Louisville also has a very capable bench, so this should be a good matchup.

In a seven game series, I just don’t think Louisville can defeat Madison. We have too much starpower and experience to go down in round one. Duncan’s leadership and ability on both ends and Melo’s offensive dexterity will lead Madison past Louisville in 5-6 games.

phlp please add this to the OP

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 11:05 AM
i can't see Madison winning this one easily.. 7 game series where there's only Melo and Duncan to provide tranquility in the offense, not good enough. Louisville's depth has got me. And a healthy Bynum > Duncan at this point

roshan3ai
09-04-2011, 11:06 AM
i can't see Madison winning this one easily.. 7 game series where there's only Melo and Duncan to provide tranquility in the offense, not good enough. Louisville's depth has got me.

:laugh: You can't be serious. Jamison can give me 15-20 each night. Lowry was amazing the second half of last year and people are calling him a top 12 pg. And Barbosa still avgd 14 points in 24 minutes on the Raps. But yeah we have no offense.

ManRam
09-04-2011, 11:07 AM
This is actually a really close match up. I think Melo is the difference maker. I'm still taking Duncan over Bynum as well in a 7 game series. But all the positional match ups, and the bench, are pretty even. This would be a good series...but Melo and Duncan would be too much.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-04-2011, 11:07 AM
How in the hell is madison a 1st seed:confused:

I see Louisville in 6.

Melo is overrated and duncan is getting old really fast, and he has thomas backing up him, thats bad.

btw bynum has always dominated duncan, the last 2 years or so.

Corey
09-04-2011, 11:08 AM
rosh doesnt need a writeup to win this one

How do you figure?

The Lawson - Lowry matchup is pretty close. Arguments could be made for either player.

I'd take Carter over Bell by a decent margin based on last season.

Melo is obviously much more talented offensively than Gay, but Gay isn't exactly a slouch. He's a very solid two way player.

Martin is one of the better defensive PFs, and Jamison has lost a step or two over the past few years.

Duncan is amazing, but he's not playing anywhere close to the level he was a couple years ago. Bynum is on the rise, and if he's healthy, he's a more productive player.

The frontcourt defense of Martin and Bynum is fantastic, and the offensive potential of Lawson, Carter, Gay, Bynum is legit. On top of that, they're bringing in Bogans, Mbah a Moute, Udrih (VERY underrated), and Warrick off the bench? That's really solid.

I honestly think its a tossup, and the fact that Louisville sent in a really solid writeup pushes them over the top in my eyes.

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 11:17 AM
:laugh: You can't be serious. Jamison can give me 15-20 each night. Lowry was amazing the second half of last year and people are calling him a top 12 pg. And Barbosa still avgd 14 points in 24 minutes on the Raps. But yeah we have no offense.

they can... on their teams. You have Melo and Duncan... that means the rest of the guys will need have better efficiency with less usage ;) It's not "lol" worthy ;)

Avenged
09-04-2011, 11:19 AM
Antawn Jamison used to be a really good all-star player..

But now he's on par with Kenyon and I actually give Kenyon the adv. at this point.

Kenyon isn't much offensively but he does shoot a much higher FG%, and not to mention beats Jamison out in TS% and eFG%. Kenyon rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks at a higher rate as well.

roshan3ai
09-04-2011, 11:21 AM
Gay will force Carmelo to work on D which significantly hurts Madison as they have to depend on him offensively

Last 6 matchups: 29 points. 47% shooting. 3 ast. Melo has had very good performances against Gay in th epast.


Duncan’s non-existent offensive game last year as been well documented and going against one of the best interior defensive players will certainly not help him overcome those struggles.

Non-existant? 100% false.

Duncan: 28 mpg | 13 PPG | 54 TS% | 9 RBs


You can play a 10 man rotation, but it would benefit me. Because unless they're only playing 10 minutes (in which their impact would be limited anyhow), they'll take away minutes from starters. So keep Gay on the bench for Luc all you want. But you won't be able to score at all.
Bynum: 28 mpg | 11 PPG | 60 TS% (also had a lower usage) | 9 RBs

If Duncan's offensive game is non-existant then what the hell is Bynum's?

roshan3ai
09-04-2011, 11:22 AM
Antawn Jamison used to be a really good all-star player..

But now he's on par with Kenyon and I actually give Kenyon the adv. at this point.

Kenyon isn't much offensively but he does shoot a much higher FG%, and not to mention beats Jamison out in TS% and eFG%. Kenyon rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks at a higher rate as well.

He also isn't forced to be a number one option on one of the worst teams in the league. Jamison's stats are bound to suck on the Cavs. He's asked to do everything and his usg% was higher than it had been in the last few years. You can't bash his efficiency for the terrible team he was on

Avenged
09-04-2011, 11:39 AM
He also isn't forced to be a number one option on one of the worst teams in the league. Jamison's stats are bound to suck on the Cavs. He's asked to do everything and his usg% was higher than it had been in the last few years. You can't bash his efficiency for the terrible team he was on

Probably. But I think his regression has more to do with his age more than anything. He's 35 years old. When Lebron was with him in Cleveland, he wasn't really all that much better, although he was a bit more efficient.

theheatles
09-04-2011, 11:51 AM
this was tough but i went with madison...very close in talent top to bottom; i like lowry a little over lawson, i like rajas defense more than vince offense, but i think louisville lacks some leadership and madison having duncan as the defensive anchor and leader can really maximize melos talent in offense and d

Mile High Champ
09-04-2011, 11:55 AM
They have Battie too. I just overlooked him

Nope we have battie.. They only have 11 players..

Sadds The Gr8
09-04-2011, 12:01 PM
how the hell is Louisville an 8th seed? I think they win this matchup. Madison is pretty much ride or die with Melo. If Melo's off, this team loses. Bell was beyond atrocious last year and I don't like the scoring support for Melo. Don't really like the depth either for Madison.

I like Bynum in the matchup with TD, and Louisville matches up well across the board in terms of the starting lineups, with a better bench. It's close but I like Louisville.

TBH, I don't know how this is a 1 & 8 matchup.

roshan3ai
09-04-2011, 12:10 PM
how the hell is Louisville an 8th seed? I think they win this matchup. Madison is pretty much ride or die with Melo. If Melo's off, this team loses. Bell was beyond atrocious last year and I don't like the scoring support for Melo. Don't really like the depth either for Madison.

I like Bynum in the matchup with TD, and Louisville matches up well across the board in terms of the starting lineups, with a better bench. It's close but I like Louisville.

TBH, I don't know how this is a 1 & 8 matchup.

You can't be serious. How are we dead if Melo's off? Jamison, Lowry, Duncan and Barbosa can put up 20 on occassion. How about when Rudy Gay is off?? Are they going to be totally fine with VC as the first option? Yeah exactly. It's a redraft. No team is absolutely fine when their number one option is off.

Sportfan
09-04-2011, 12:34 PM
Been saying Madison is a bit overhyped, and their luck didn't help as they drew a top 6 team imo.honestly, Louisville has them beat imo at 3 positions at PG SG and C. They have their best player matched up on Melo and Jamison is just a tad better than Martin. Louisville has the better bench too. I'd probably go with Madison here since Duncan's leadership/playoff experience could really shine through here especially with off days in a 7 game series, but Madison is on serious upset alert the next couple rounds

clehmun
09-04-2011, 12:38 PM
Louisville is right in saying this is a closer matchup and any other normal 1 vs 8s.
But I think Madison is better in every position other than maybe the SG spot (but we have former 6th man of the year in Barbosa to sub in for Bell.)

I understand Jamison and Duncan are getting old. But people are ridiculously underrating them. THIS IS AN ONE YEAR PLAYOFF SITUATION. We're not asking who's a better piece to build around.

Duncan's experience, leadership, and will to win makes him much more valuable than Bynum in a 7 game series. This is not about who's better in a 82 game season. Or who'll be better in the long run.
IF you want to win NOW, I don't see how anyone can take Bynum over Duncan.
Please don't just look at Duncan's regular season stats, and decide that he's done. The spurs were saving him for the playoffs, and didn't need Duncan to average 18 and 10 every night because they were already the #1 seed by a wide margin.

And I honestly don't understand how people can say our offense is not good enough. If anything, I think we have one of the best offense in the redraft.

Melo is a top 3 scorer in the league. Duncan and Jamison are very capable 2nd/3rd options in a contender. Those 3 guys can give us 50-60 a night (in the playoffs).
Lowry is now asked to be a 4th option on offense where he's more than capable. Bell is starting for defensive purposes, but can still hit an open 3, and he's guarding Vince Carter who's drop off is MUCH bigger than Duncan and Jamison.

Louisville on the other hand are full of question marks.
Gay MIGHT be a capable number 1 option. But when did he actually prove that? Memphis was a low seed playoff or lottery team until ZBO took over.
Bynum MIGHT be a capable number 2. But he also plays with Kobe and Gasol who does take away some of his touches, but also makes him an efficient player. What if he's forced to make plays night in and night out? Will he still shoot a high percentage or can he even score everytime his team needs him to? Maybe or maybe not. Bynum has never proven he can be a legit 2nd option for a long period of time, for a championship contender.

His 3rd best player is Ty Lawson who while is an up and coming PG, he's still only a starter for half a season. Is his experience and leadership enough to lead a championship team?

VC and Kmart were great players in their prime. But if people are going to talk down on Duncan and Jamison's age. How can you let VC and kmart get a free pass?
VC's drop off is the biggest of any player in the series. How many games have Martin missed the past few years due to injuries?

Yes this is not a normal 1 vs 8 match up because it's a closer series than people think. But Madison is still a better team, so please spend the time to think about the matchups and teams before you want to just vote for an upset.

The_Pharouh
09-04-2011, 12:46 PM
Louisville has slight edge IMO ,but it is really close

Sportfan
09-04-2011, 12:54 PM
this was tough but i went with madison...very close in talent top to bottom; i like lowry a little over lawson, i like rajas defense more than vince offense, but i think louisville lacks some leadership and madison having duncan as the defensive anchor and leader can really maximize melos talent in offense and d
Raja doesn't play defense.

jimbobjarree
09-04-2011, 12:57 PM
Raja doesn't play defense.

Raja doesn't do ****

theheatles
09-04-2011, 01:08 PM
Raja doesn't play defense.

huh? he made a career out of being a defensive specialist, and a damn good 1 being labeled as the kobe stopper in kobes prime years(suns with bells defense knocked out kobe and the lakers twice post shaq, pre gasol). raja isnt in his prime but neither is vince, so raja will lock him down and force vince to take low % shots

MiamiWadeCounty
09-04-2011, 01:20 PM
Raja is a terrible defender these days. He is closer to a liability than a stopper.

Corey
09-04-2011, 01:24 PM
But I think Madison is better in every position other than maybe the SG spot

'maybe'?

:eyebrow:

Bell is so bad.

GoPacers33
09-04-2011, 01:40 PM
MAdison

clehmun
09-04-2011, 01:41 PM
'maybe'?

:eyebrow:

Bell is so bad.

You act like VC is still a good player.
He can't even start on a suns team, playing with steve nash.

I say maybe because they'll be a different fit for each team. An offensive powerhouse that needs defense would want Bell over Carter. As much as you try to play down on Bell's defense, it's still better than VC's.

We also have Barbosa who will play majority of minutes at the 2 spot.
Barbosa and Bell is IMO better than VC and Bogans.

The_Jamal
09-04-2011, 01:51 PM
You act like VC is still a good player.
He can't even start on a suns team, playing with steve nash.

I say maybe because they'll be a different fit for each team. An offensive powerhouse that needs defense would want Bell over Carter. As much as you try to play down on Bell's defense, it's still better than VC's.

We also have Barbosa who will play majority of minutes at the 2 spot.
Barbosa and Bell is IMO better than VC and Bogans.

I don't think people realize how terrible Bell is. He was a solid starter... 3 years ago. He shot career lows last season from 3 and was really terrible defensively according to most defensive metric stats. Carter has lost a step for sure, but he can still put up 15-17 a game which is all we need him to do for this team. While Barbosa is solid, he's coming off a pretty underwhelming year and is no better defensively. I don't see how you think it's even close at the SG position

roshan3ai
09-04-2011, 02:06 PM
Carter has lost a step for sure, but he can still put up 15-17 a game which is all we need him to do for this team. While Barbosa is solid, he's coming off a pretty underwhelming year and is no better defensively. I don't see how you think it's even close at the SG position

Carter couldn't put up 15-17 this year as one of the primary scorers on the Suns. How can you expect him to do that on your team?

And how in bloodly hell is Barbosa's year underwhelming but VC's not?

Barbosa: 24 MPG || 13.3 PPG || 2 AST || 1 STL || 54 TS% || 51 eFG%

Carter: 28 MPG || 14 PPG || 2 AST || 53 TS% || 50 eFG%


An argument can be made that Barbosa is more valuable than VC at this point. To say Barbosa was underwhelming and then say VC can give you 15-17 is absolutely absurd

The_Jamal
09-04-2011, 02:12 PM
Last 6 matchups: 29 points. 47% shooting. 3 ast. Melo has had very good performances against Gay in th epast.



Non-existant? 100% false.

Duncan: 28 mpg | 13 PPG | 54 TS% | 9 RBs


You can play a 10 man rotation, but it would benefit me. Because unless they're only playing 10 minutes (in which their impact would be limited anyhow), they'll take away minutes from starters. So keep Gay on the bench for Luc all you want. But you won't be able to score at all.
Bynum: 28 mpg | 11 PPG | 60 TS% (also had a lower usage) | 9 RBs

If Duncan's offensive game is non-existant then what the hell is Bynum's?

Bynum's number's in the playoffs are much more indicitive of what he can do on this team. 32mpg 14 PPg | 59% TS |10 Boards with a pretty low USG%. Considering he put those up with Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom taking touches away from him in the post, his numbers will almost most certainly exceed his playoff ones. Fact is that Timmy is quickly declining and will be a year older while Bynum's skills are rising fast as well as getting a chance to be the main post presence down low

mightybosstone
09-04-2011, 02:16 PM
Louisville matches up surprisingly well with Madision, but Madison has the experience edge and Gay is too much of a question mark as a No. 1 option, IMO. Despite my hatred of Melo, he's an elite offensive player and Duncan should never be underrated. My man crush on Kyle Lowry doesn't do Louisville any favors, but watching him so much last season, I'm confident he's a top 10 PG and on his way to being an elite player at the position. And I think Duncan is a tough matchup for Bynum, and once he gets in foul trouble, Louisiville is going to have issues.

Madison in five

The_Jamal
09-04-2011, 02:19 PM
Carter couldn't put up 15-17 this year as one of the primary scorers on the Suns. How can you expect him to do that on your team?

And how in bloodly hell is Barbosa's year underwhelming but VC's not?

Barbosa: 24 MPG || 13.3 PPG || 2 AST || 1 STL || 54 TS% || 51 eFG%

Carter: 28 MPG || 14 PPG || 2 AST || 53 TS% || 50 eFG%


An argument can be made that Barbosa is more valuable than VC at this point. To say Barbosa was underwhelming and then say VC can give you 15-17 is absolutely absurd

Carter can absolutely give me 15-17 with the minutes i'm giving him. Especially when he has such an advantage over 2 very weak defenders in Bell and Barbosa.

What argument can be made for Barbosa over Carter? Carter has lost a few steps sure, but he's still vastly superior to him on defense.

The_Jamal
09-04-2011, 02:22 PM
Official count is 16-14 as both have 1 vote with less than 100 posts

mightybosstone
09-04-2011, 02:29 PM
I'll admit that Louisville matches up well with Madison and that Jamal has done a fantastic job with a late pick, but I'm really surprised this vote is so close. Madison has more talent, more offense and more experience.

The_Jamal
09-04-2011, 03:14 PM
Louisville is right in saying this is a closer matchup and any other normal 1 vs 8s.
But I think Madison is better in every position other than maybe the SG spot (but we have former 6th man of the year in Barbosa to sub in for Bell.)

I understand Jamison and Duncan are getting old. But people are ridiculously underrating them. THIS IS AN ONE YEAR PLAYOFF SITUATION. We're not asking who's a better piece to build around.

Duncan's experience, leadership, and will to win makes him much more valuable than Bynum in a 7 game series. This is not about who's better in a 82 game season. Or who'll be better in the long run.
IF you want to win NOW, I don't see how anyone can take Bynum over Duncan.
Please don't just look at Duncan's regular season stats, and decide that he's done. The spurs were saving him for the playoffs, and didn't need Duncan to average 18 and 10 every night because they were already the #1 seed by a wide margin.

Except Timmy was quite a bit worse in the playoffs. His effeciency went to hell shooting only 50 TS % and he got dominated by Randolph and Gasol.


And I honestly don't understand how people can say our offense is not good enough. If anything, I think we have one of the best offense in the redraft.

Melo is a top 3 scorer in the league. Duncan and Jamison are very capable 2nd/3rd options in a contender. Those 3 guys can give us 50-60 a night (in the playoffs).
Lowry is now asked to be a 4th option on offense where he's more than capable. Bell is starting for defensive purposes, but can still hit an open 3, and he's guarding Vince Carter who's drop off is MUCH bigger than Duncan and Jamison.


Louisville on the other hand are full of question marks.
Gay MIGHT be a capable number 1 option. But when did he actually prove that? Memphis was a low seed playoff or lottery team until ZBO took over.
Bynum MIGHT be a capable number 2. But he also plays with Kobe and Gasol who does take away some of his touches, but also makes him an efficient player. What if he's forced to make plays night in and night out? Will he still shoot a high percentage or can he even score everytime his team needs him to? Maybe or maybe not. Bynum has never proven he can be a legit 2nd option for a long period of time, for a championship contender.

I' not sure why people would question the validaty of Gay being a true #1 option. He's been a proven 18-20 PPG scorer the last 4 years and really proved last year that he can carry a team offensively. Bynum has never proven he can be a #2 because he's playing with 2 top 12 players in the NBA and likely HOF candidates. Even with the limited touches he got, he's shown he can be an effective post presence. On a squad where he is the GO-TO post presence, he'll only get better.

His 3rd best player is Ty Lawson who while is an up and coming PG, he's still only a starter for half a season. Is his experience and leadership enough to lead a championship team?

Funny you should bring this up since Kyle Lowry has recently lead teams to championships and multiple playoff runs. Oh wait. Lowry has only started like 30 more games than Lawson. There's no doubt that Lowry is talented, but at least Lawson just ran PG for a #5 seed in the West. I think he'll be fine running point for me.

VC and Kmart were great players in their prime. But if people are going to talk down on Duncan and Jamison's age. How can you let VC and kmart get a free pass?
VC's drop off is the biggest of any player in the series. How many games have Martin missed the past few years due to injuries?

The biggest difference is i don't depend on VC and K-mart nearly as much as you have to depend on Duncan+Jamison. All i'm expecting out of K-mart is strong defense and rebounding and Carter to be a 4th option and take advantage of a weak match-up agaisnt Bell/Barbosa. Duncan and Jamison have to play a huge role for you to win, VC and Martin don't necessarily need to.

Yes this is not a normal 1 vs 8 match up because it's a closer series than people think. But Madison is still a better team, so please spend the time to think about the matchups and teams before you want to just vote for an upset.

Bolded responses

roshan3ai
09-04-2011, 03:14 PM
Carter can absolutely give me 15-17 with the minutes i'm giving him. Especially when he has such an advantage over 2 very weak defenders in Bell and Barbosa.

What argument can be made for Barbosa over Carter? Carter has lost a few steps sure, but he's still vastly superior to him on defense.

If Carter was able to give 15-17 points with those minutes, then why the hell didn't the Magic and Suns do that? There's obviously a reason. You can't just raise his minutes and expect his numbers to rise and efficiency to stay the same.

I don't think Barbosa is better than Carter. I was just trying to make a point that you were way off on the entire Barbosa had an underwhelming year argument especially when VC's numbers were extremely similar to his. It's not like we rely on Barbosa for defense anyways. He's going to be put in the game to score.

NYMetros
09-04-2011, 03:19 PM
This is surprising close.

roshan3ai
09-04-2011, 03:26 PM
Bolded responses

1. Duncan did not have a great postseason. However, the Grizz were a matchup nightmare for the Spurs team. He didn't have a great showing, but the entire team was just off.

2. VC is your fourth option now? What fourth option gives you 15-17 points per game? If he's getting fourth option touches, then all I expect is for him to get low teens in points.

3. Jamison's role is to score. He's not asked to be a lockdown defender or grab down 13 boards a game. He's there to spread the floor and be an offensive presence. That is not too much to ask especially when you're asking an aging KMart who played a mere 24 minutes per game this year and missed half the season due to injury again to be a rebounding presence when his total rebound percentage is barely better than renowned poor rebounder Amar'e Stoudemire. I don't see how we're asking more of Jamison than you are of Carter.

4. Why would we question Gay? Maybe because his team looked marginally better without him in the playoffs. What team does better when their number one option is out for the series?

5. The Bynum argument goes two ways. He doesn't get his fair amount of touches but the attention is also mostly on Gasol in the post which Bynum benefits from. The best big on the opposing team is guarding Gasol so Bynum often draws the easier matchup. Who's to say his efficiency doesn't go down with increased usage? It would be a fair argument if you think that he can be a number two option on your team. Who's to say he even gets on the court? He has played over thirty minutes in the playoffs only once.

The_Jamal
09-04-2011, 03:30 PM
I'll respond in a bit, gotta go grub :)

The_Jamal
09-04-2011, 05:32 PM
bumpage

Sadds The Gr8
09-04-2011, 08:34 PM
You can't be serious. How are we dead if Melo's off? Jamison, Lowry, Duncan and Barbosa can put up 20 on occassion. How about when Rudy Gay is off?? Are they going to be totally fine with VC as the first option? Yeah exactly. It's a redraft. No team is absolutely fine when their number one option is off.

Duncan and Lowry aren't scorers. and Jamison isn't all that good at this point in his career. Duncan and Jamison are too old and aren't great offensive players anymore. this isn't 2005.

and he has Gay, Bynum, and Carter, although Carter is a bit done at this point he's still a decent #3. All of them are solid scorers. plus Udrih and Warrick are double digit scorers if given good mins.

Sadds The Gr8
09-04-2011, 08:35 PM
Raja is a terrible defender these days. He is closer to a liability than a stopper.

Raja Bell was *** cheeks last season.

mightybosstone
09-04-2011, 09:30 PM
Duncan and Lowry aren't scorers.

Lowry's 16.8 points and .435/.394/.850 shooting percentages post all-star break last season would like to say hi. If you didn't watch the Rockets last season, I can understand your ignorance. But I watched him, and he was their second most reliable scorer the second half of the season. If he doesn't put up at least 15 and 7 next season, I'll be shocked.

Sadds The Gr8
09-04-2011, 09:37 PM
Lowry's 16.8 points and .435/.394/.850 shooting percentages post all-star break last season would like to say high. If you didn't watch the Rockets last season, I can understand your ignorance. But I watched him, and he was their second most reliable scorer the second half of the season. If he doesn't put up at least 15 and 7 next season, I'll be shocked.

15 ppg still isn't really "reliable scorer", otherwise u might as well include Duncan as well...

The_Jamal
09-04-2011, 09:54 PM
Keeping it close!

Keep those votes coming :)

clehmun
09-04-2011, 10:02 PM
Duncan and Lowry aren't scorers. and Jamison isn't all that good at this point in his career. Duncan and Jamison are too old and aren't great offensive players anymore. this isn't 2005.

and he has Gay, Bynum, and Carter, although Carter is a bit done at this point he's still a decent #3. All of them are solid scorers. plus Udrih and Warrick are double digit scorers if given good mins.

At this point in their careers, Jamison, Duncan, Lowry, are better "scorers" than Vince Carter.

clehmun
09-04-2011, 10:07 PM
15 ppg still isn't really "reliable scorer", otherwise u might as well include Duncan as well...

You do realize Vince Carter averaged 14 points a game last season right?
So if a 15 points scorer isn't a "reliable 4th option", how can you call a 14 point scorer a good 3rd option scorer? :facepalm:

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 12:12 AM
You do realize Vince Carter averaged 14 points a game last season right?
So if a 15 points scorer isn't a "reliable 4th option", how can you call a 14 point scorer a good 3rd option scorer? :facepalm:

Carter and Lawson share that 3rd/4th option pseduo role.

However, i'd like to bring up the lack of depth behind Jamison and Duncan. He can't honestly expect them to play more than 32-33 minutes a game at their age and Kurt Thomas who's pushing 40 is they're only capable big behind them. Where are thsoe minutes going to go? I realize that Martin+Bynum aren't going to log huge minutes either, but i have 3 guys who are more than capable of playing productive minutes behind them.

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 12:20 AM
Carter and Lawson share that 3rd/4th option pseduo role.

However, i'd like to bring up the lack of depth behind Jamison and Duncan. He can't honestly expect them to play more than 32-33 minutes a game at their age and Kurt Thomas who's pushing 40 is they're only capable big behind them. Where are thsoe minutes going to go? I realize that Martin+Bynum aren't going to log huge minutes either, but i have 3 guys who are more than capable of playing productive minutes behind them.

What makes you think Kurt can't play 15-20 minutes? He provides defense and rebounding and a veteran presence on the floor and filled in fantastically for the Bulls this year with the Noah and Boozer injuries. Duncan can play 35 minutes in the playoffs and so can Jamison. That leaves about 25 minutes, which can easily be split between Cunningham and Kurt. Cunningham is a very solid energy player and can easily provide about 10 minutes per game of solid defense and rebounding.

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 12:30 AM
15 ppg still isn't really "reliable scorer", otherwise u might as well include Duncan as well...

Are you aware that there are only 49 players in the NBA who averaged 15 ppg last season? Are you telling me there aren't at least 49 "reliable scorers" in the NBA? When I say "reliable scorer," I mean a legit No. 1, No. 2 or No. 3 option. If your No. 3 scorer is averaging 20 a night, then that's unbelievable. For the rest of the NBA, 15 is pretty damn good.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 12:31 AM
What makes you think Kurt can't play 15-20 minutes? He provides defense and rebounding and a veteran presence on the floor and filled in fantastically for the Bulls this year with the Noah and Boozer injuries. Duncan can play 35 minutes in the playoffs and so can Jamison. That leaves about 25 minutes, which can easily be split between Cunningham and Kurt. Cunningham is a very solid energy player and can easily provide about 10 minutes per game of solid defense and rebounding.

Never said he couldn't. But these guys are all 35+ next year; father time simply won't allow them to play as long as they were able to at a high level. Playing Timmy D 35 minutes a game is simply not in the cards for him anymore or more series like the Memphis one will happen. 12/10 on 50% TS and 48% eFG while getting absolutely crushed by Gasol and Randolph is Timmy's production getting 35 minutes a game. It's not like he was facing elite defenders either in Gasol or Randolph.

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 12:41 AM
Never said he couldn't. But these guys are all 35+ next year; father time simply won't allow them to play as long as they were able to at a high level. Playing Timmy D 35 minutes a game is simply not in the cards for him anymore or more series like the Memphis one will happen. 12/10 on 50% TS and 48% eFG while getting absolutely crushed by Gasol and Randolph is Timmy's production getting 35 minutes a game. It's not like he was facing elite defenders either in Gasol or Randolph.

Again, the entire team had a poor showing, not just him. You can't judge him based off of six games. He did not have a great postseason, but he has shown in years past that he can play more minutes in the playoffs and be productive. And now Duncan finally has a frontcourt mate who's capable on offense instead of Blair, Bonner, McDyess, etc. This will take the attention off of him in the post and open things up for him.

And all we'll really need from Duncan is to match up with Bynum which shouldn't be all that hard as Bynum is hurt half the time and has only played more than 25 mpg in the playoffs once even though his team made two deep finals runs. And KMart can't give you 30 mpg either. Jamison can play around 32 mpg and our backup bigs are fine. I don't really see how you can criticize our bigs for playing limited minutes when you have Bynum and KMart. It's not like you have two amazing backup bigs either, they really don't have a big advantage over Kurt and Cunningham in my eyes.

Sadds The Gr8
09-05-2011, 12:48 AM
Are you aware that there are only 49 players in the NBA who averaged 15 ppg last season? Are you telling me there aren't at least 49 "reliable scorers" in the NBA? When I say "reliable scorer," I mean a legit No. 1, No. 2 or No. 3 option. If your No. 3 scorer is averaging 20 a night, then that's unbelievable. For the rest of the NBA, 15 is pretty damn good.
In this case, would you call Lowry a reliable #2 option on a championship team at this point in his career? if u think yes then u gotta be kidding me.

You do realize Vince Carter averaged 14 points a game last season right?
So if a 15 points scorer isn't a "reliable 4th option", how can you call a 14 point scorer a good 3rd option scorer? :facepalm:

Vince Carter is like the 4th option on the team...14 ppg for a 4th option isnt good? especially when 2 other guys are capable of scoring 20 ppg, and 1 other player capable of 15 ppg.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 01:03 AM
Again, the entire team had a poor showing, not just him. You can't judge him based off of six games. He did not have a great postseason, but he has shown in years past that he can play more minutes in the playoffs and be productive. And now Duncan finally has a frontcourt mate who's capable on offense instead of Blair, Bonner, McDyess, etc. This will take the attention off of him in the post and open things up for him.

And all we'll really need from Duncan is to match up with Bynum which shouldn't be all that hard as Bynum is hurt half the time and has only played more than 25 mpg in the playoffs once even though his team made two deep finals runs. And KMart can't give you 30 mpg either. Jamison can play around 32 mpg and our backup bigs are fine. I don't really see how you can criticize our bigs for playing limited minutes when you have Bynum and KMart. It's not like you have two amazing backup bigs either, they really don't have a big advantage over Kurt and Cunningham in my eyes.

Why can't i judge him off 6 games? The story the entire year was that "Duncan was saving it for the playoffs, the Spurs don't need him in the regular season" and he lays a huge egg in the playoffs. You can't judge Duncan by years past anymore; his dramatic drop-off in the regular and post-season prove he simply isn't the same player.

Well it certainly a good thing that injuries don't really play a big part in this. Bynum just got done logging 32 minutes a game and was the best Laker for their time in the playoffs. And how can you fault Martin when he was apart of one of the deepest teams assembled in the last 10 years? No one on that squad got huge minutes and what we are asking Martin to play is much closer to his career averages.

The biggest stretch is you thinking Cunningham and Thomas are even close to being as productive as a Warrick, Mbah a Moute and McRoberts can be. All 3 guys played 23 minutes+ for their respective teams and played highly productive minutes as role players. Kurt Thomas did well in his minutes, but once again will he be able to do so again at his age?

Ebbs
09-05-2011, 01:09 AM
torn. . . just read through the whole thing

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 01:16 AM
Why can't i judge him off 6 games? The story the entire year was that "Duncan was saving it for the playoffs, the Spurs don't need him in the regular season" and he lays a huge egg in the playoffs. You can't judge Duncan by years past anymore; his dramatic drop-off in the regular and post-season prove he simply isn't the same player.

Well it certainly a good thing that injuries don't really play a big part in this. Bynum just got done logging 32 minutes a game and was the best Laker for their time in the playoffs. And how can you fault Martin when he was apart of one of the deepest teams assembled in the last 10 years? No one on that squad got huge minutes and what we are asking Martin to play is much closer to his career averages.

The biggest stretch is you thinking Cunningham and Thomas are even close to being as productive as a Warrick, Mbah a Moute and McRoberts can be. All 3 guys played 23 minutes+ for their respective teams and played highly productive minutes as role players. Kurt Thomas did well in his minutes, but once again will he be able to do so again at his age?

Dramatic drop off? He was arguably the best player on the number one seed in the West and, well didn't have to log heavy minutes because of their comfortable leads in some games and the cushion of being in first. The Grizzlies were a terrible matchup for the Spurs. They got exposed. He had ONE bad series. That doesn't mean he won't be able to produce anymore. You're really exaggerating this thing.

And since you love using this argument, do you really think Martin will be able to produce well in 34 minutes at this age and with his health concerns?

McRoberts is a solid role player, but he's not a center by any means. If he went against Duncan he would be in for a rough ride, which is very well possible with Bynum's propensity to get in foul trouble and Duncan's smart defense. Warrick is nothing more than an okay scorer. He provides little defense and rebounding at the PF position. Cunningham played 21 minutes per game this year and filled his role well also. He can hit the mid range shot, defend, and rebound. Thomas started for the Bulls and filled in nicely, especially on the defensive end recording almost 3 DWS.

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 01:34 AM
In this case, would you call Lowry a reliable #2 option on a championship team at this point in his career? if u think yes then u gotta be kidding me.
Jason Terry averaged 15.8 ppg last season and Marion averaged only 12.5. Your argument is seriously flawed. And who said Lowry had to be the No. 2? Jamison averaged 18 a game and 15.8 a game with Lebron in Cleveland.

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 01:37 AM
I'm still confused as to why this is close. Elite scorer + Elite defensive big man with more postseason experience than Louisville's entire roster = Easy victory.

Sadds The Gr8
09-05-2011, 01:40 AM
Jason Terry averaged 15.8 ppg last season and Marion averaged only 12.5. Your argument is seriously flawed. And who said Lowry had to be the No. 2? Jamison averaged 18 a game and 15.8 a game with Lebron in Cleveland.

and how did Jamison work out as a #2? u still didn't answer my question about Lowry btw, who isn't the scorer Terry is.

Ebbs
09-05-2011, 01:48 AM
not a gm but wanted to see the poll without having to click on it everytime,

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 01:50 AM
and how did Jamison work out as a #2? u still didn't answer my question about Lowry btw, who isn't the scorer Terry is.

That's because it was a ridiculous question. I never said he was going to be the No. 2 player on the team, but you also must not have any re-draft experience, or else you'd know how hard it is to build a re-draft team that would even make the playoffs in the real NBA, much less win a championship. Also, criticizing Jamison for the Cavs failure in one postseason is completely ridiculous. That's like saying, "Lebron, Wade and Bosh signed to play on the same team. Clearly that was a failure." And you may not think that Lowry is "the scorer" that Terry is, but overall, I think he's going to be a better player. He's already superior at everything else, and if the end of last season is any indication, don't be surprised if Lowry averages more PPG next season than Terry does.

Bottom line, your logic is flawed. You say the other team is stacked with scoring, but Melo is such the superior scorer to Gay that it's not even funny. Surround him with three or four guys who can put up 10-15 a night and solid team defenders and that's a team capable of making a deep playoff run. Louisville doesn't even have a legit No. 1 option offensively in my mind. Gay has never carried a playoff team, and you can argue that the Grizzlies were better without him on the floor.

And the one argument that is absolute irrefutable is the "Bynum foul trouble" argument. If Bynum picks up early fouls, who in the hell guards Duncan? Anybody with a shred of common sense would look at the two rosters and immediately see that flaw...

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 01:53 AM
Dramatic drop off? He was arguably the best player on the number one seed in the West and, well didn't have to log heavy minutes because of their comfortable leads in some games and the cushion of being in first. The Grizzlies were a terrible matchup for the Spurs. They got exposed. He had ONE bad series. That doesn't mean he won't be able to produce anymore. You're really exaggerating this thing.

And since you love using this argument, do you really think Martin will be able to produce well in 34 minutes at this age and with his health concerns?

McRoberts is a solid role player, but he's not a center by any means. If he went against Duncan he would be in for a rough ride, which is very well possible with Bynum's propensity to get in foul trouble and Duncan's smart defense. Warrick is nothing more than an okay scorer. He provides little defense and rebounding at the PF position. Cunningham played 21 minutes per game this year and filled his role well also. He can hit the mid range shot, defend, and rebound. Thomas started for the Bulls and filled in nicely, especially on the defensive end recording almost 3 DWS.

Yes Timmy experienced a dramatic drop-off in production. 13/10/2 on 53% TS along with his defense are certainly good numbers but aren't near the HOF production that we are used to seeing from him. I don't think i'm exagerating the Duncan thing at all; it needs to be highlighted that he isn't the same caliber of player anymore and his age really showed in both the regular season and the play-offs.

I agree, Martin at 34 minutes a game would be a bad idea which is why i'm only planning on giving him 30 :)

And i fully disagree with everything you said about my bench. McRoberts and Warrick both put up 7 and 9 PPG respectively in limited minutes with high TS% and eFG%. McRoberts at 6'11 240 would be able to hold his own as he's been a very good defensive player his whole career. Add in Mbah a Moute who put up 3.0 DWS's who can guard 3 positions at a high level and Beno Udrih who was the NBA's 3rd most effecient guard posting 58% TS 53% eFG and 50% FG. After those 4 guys who can be insanely productive we have Keith Bogans backing up Carter as a valuable veteran defensive piece and 3pt shooter and Juwan Howard who can still offer some vet leadership to a team.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 02:00 AM
Why ebbs no vote?

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 02:02 AM
Jamal, I like you, you've done a good job with your team and I commend you for putting up a fight (as I would do the same thing). But the biggest problem I have here is that I don't see a single player in your starting five stepping up come playoff time. VC and Bynum are notorious for shrinking in the moment, Gay has yet to play a single minute of postseason basketball and Lawson and Martin are not capable of being that guy. This is the reason I did not rank your team higher and it's the reason why I have a fundamental problem with your roster. You can bust out all the advanced stats you want, but sometimes you have to ask yourself the simplest of questions when building a team before you you ask the complicated ones.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 02:06 AM
That's because it was a ridiculous question. I never said he was going to be the No. 2 player on the team, but you also must not have any re-draft experience, or else you'd know how hard it is to build a re-draft team that would even make the playoffs in the real NBA, much less win a championship. Also, criticizing Jamison for the Cavs failure in one postseason is completely ridiculous. That's like saying, "Lebron, Wade and Bosh signed to play on the same team. Clearly that was a failure." And you may not think that Lowry is "the scorer" that Terry is, but overall, I think he's going to be a better player. He's already superior at everything else, and if the end of last season is any indication, don't be surprised if Lowry averages more PPG next season than Terry does.

Bottom line, your logic is flawed. You say the other team is stacked with scoring, but Melo is such the superior scorer to Gay that it's not even funny. Surround him with three or four guys who can put up 10-15 a night and solid team defenders and that's a team capable of making a deep playoff run. Louisville doesn't even have a legit No. 1 option offensively in my mind. Gay has never carried a playoff team, and you can argue that the Grizzlies were better without him on the floor.

And the one argument that is absolute irrefutable is the "Bynum foul trouble" argument. If Bynum picks up early fouls, who in the hell guards Duncan? Anybody with a shred of common sense would look at the two rosters and immediately see that flaw...

In 12 Match-ups against Duncan Bynum has yet to foul out and has averaged 2.8fouls per contest. Doesn't seem like foul trouble to me. Not to mention, Bynum is becoming a smarter and smarter player on both ends with regards to staying out of foul trouble as he's PF's have decreased over the last 3 years.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 02:33 AM
Jamal, I like you, you've done a good job with your team and I commend you for putting up a fight (as I would do the same thing). But the biggest problem I have here is that I don't see a single player in your starting five stepping up come playoff time. VC and Bynum are notorious for shrinking in the moment, Gay has yet to play a single minute of postseason basketball and Lawson and Martin are not capable of being that guy. This is the reason I did not rank your team higher and it's the reason why I have a fundamental problem with your roster. You can bust out all the advanced stats you want, but sometimes you have to ask yourself the simplest of questions when building a team before you you ask the complicated ones.

I respect you quite a bit as a basketball poster and think you are one of the more intelligent guys on here but what the hell are you talking about? Even the most "clutch" guys in the game don't light the world on fire every game of every series. If we use that logic of guys "stepping up" then Carmelo shouldn't be nearly as highly regarded as he is in these games. The guy has gotten out of the 1st round once in eight tries. ONCE! Would you say he's a guy who "step ups" come playoff time? Timmy obviously has the playoff success, but we've been over him already and his struggles this season

Even then, how can you be for certain guys like Bynum or Lawson won't be able to "step up" come playoff time? Lawson was brilliant offensively in his first playoffs with unbelieveable shooting numbers and Bynum came off the best playoffs of his career as the 4th option on that Laker team. I can certainly live with those guys getting increased roles with the numbers they've produced

And honestly what do you have against Rudy Gay? He's one of the leagues best all around scorers and is one of the few guys in the NBA who can create his own shot and take over a game. There is no logical reason to believe that he can't be the #1 option on a playoff contender.

Ebbs
09-05-2011, 02:37 AM
I actually meant to vote but clicked the gm button :hide: can mods chaneg votes or no?

iam brett favre
09-05-2011, 02:41 AM
I think Louisville would win this

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 02:48 AM
I actually meant to vote but clicked the gm button :hide: can mods chaneg votes or no?

I would think so. It's not like you're changing your vote from 1 team to another

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 02:54 AM
Or you could just say who you meant to vote for incase mods can't change the vote :shrug:

clehmun
09-05-2011, 03:46 AM
Does anyone even take home court advantage into considerations?

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 09:16 AM
BUmp

Corey
09-05-2011, 09:19 AM
Does anyone even take home court advantage into considerations?
Yea, but I think Louisville would win in 6, so home court doesn't really make a difference to me.

MiamiWadeCounty
09-05-2011, 09:23 AM
What's the official count?

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 09:32 AM
Yea, but I think Louisville would win in 6, so home court doesn't really make a difference to me.

:laugh2: In 6? Please enlighten me on how this would happen.

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 09:34 AM
And it's 26-23 MWC

MiamiWadeCounty
09-05-2011, 09:37 AM
And it's 26-23 MWC

K. Looks like this one will be coming down to the last minutes tomorrow morning. I wish Phlp set the clock for like 36 hours so it would end at 9-10 tonight and the next matchups could be posted.

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 12:12 PM
I respect you quite a bit as a basketball poster and think you are one of the more intelligent guys on here but what the hell are you talking about? Even the most "clutch" guys in the game don't light the world on fire every game of every series. If we use that logic of guys "stepping up" then Carmelo shouldn't be nearly as highly regarded as he is in these games. The guy has gotten out of the 1st round once in eight tries. ONCE! Would you say he's a guy who "step ups" come playoff time? Timmy obviously has the playoff success, but we've been over him already and his struggles this season.
I think you're seriously overplaying Duncan's struggles based on a single playoff series, and when I mean "step up," I mean that I don't expect anyone on your team to take over a came in the postseason. If you want examples look at Dirk, Lebron, Randolph and Durant in this postseason and some of the games they dominated. You need to have that guy who's going to put the team on his back and get two points regardless of the situation. If you're down by 10 and the offense isn't working, he has to be the guy to open up the offense. When you're down by 3 with less than a minute left, he's the guy who's taking the shot. These are intangibles that can't be measured in advanced statistics. His team has them. Your team doesn't.


Even then, how can you be for certain guys like Bynum or Lawson won't be able to "step up" come playoff time? Lawson was brilliant offensively in his first playoffs with unbelieveable shooting numbers and Bynum came off the best playoffs of his career as the 4th option on that Laker team. I can certainly live with those guys getting increased roles with the numbers they've produced. And honestly what do you have against Rudy Gay? He's one of the leagues best all around scorers and is one of the few guys in the NBA who can create his own shot and take over a game. There is no logical reason to believe that he can't be the #1 option on a playoff contender.
Look at the usage rate for all of these players. Gay's was 21.6 (78th), Lawson was 19.3 (119th) and Bynum was 16.3 (199th). Now that doesn't necessarily rule Gay out of being a No. 1, but it certainly doesn't help the other two. You just can't run an offense around those two. Paul Pierce is only 21.8, for example, but let's look at Pierce's other numbers. We can put aside Pierce's better defensive numbers, Finals MVP and efficiency superiority, but look at offensive win shares. Pierce: 6.5; Gay: 2.7. Even in a full season (2009-10), Gay managed only 4.0 win shares to Pierce's 5.0. But just for fun, let's look at offensive stats in the postseason. Oh, that's right, Gay doesn't have any because he's a playoff virgin! And you can rip Melo for not getting out of the first round more than one time, but the dude had inferior teams and was instrumental in their 2009 run (24.3 PER, .201 WS/48. .564 TS% and 27, 6 and 4 in 16 games). He also put up solid numbers in 2007, 2010 and 2011.

And if you want an additional reason to knock Bynum and Lawson, how about sample size? Look at Bynum's poor postseason numbers prior to this last season. Prior to this season, he didn't even post 25 minutes a night in those Lakers' championship runs. And Lawson put up great numbers this year in a losing effort. If you're going to rip Melo for not getting out of the first round, then Lawson's success is pointless and if you're going to rip Duncan for one bad postseason, then why isn't it fair to discount Bynum and Lawson for one successful postseason?

Also, go ahead an knock Duncan for one bad season, but guess what? His PER was higher than any player on your roster, Gay and Bynum included. And so his TS% was down this year (53.7)? In 2004-2005, his TS% was only (54.0) when they won a championship. He also posted lower TS% numbers in 2000-01, 2003-04 and 2005-06. His TS% was also higher this season than Monta Ellis, Al Jefferson, Caron Butler, Stephen Jackson and Joe Johnson, just to name a few top scorers. A high TS% does not necessarily make a great player and a low one does not necessarily make a poor player.

Sadds The Gr8
09-05-2011, 12:21 PM
That's because it was a ridiculous question. I never said he was going to be the No. 2 player on the team, but you also must not have any re-draft experience, or else you'd know how hard it is to build a re-draft team that would even make the playoffs in the real NBA, much less win a championship. Also, criticizing Jamison for the Cavs failure in one postseason is completely ridiculous. That's like saying, "Lebron, Wade and Bosh signed to play on the same team. Clearly that was a failure." And you may not think that Lowry is "the scorer" that Terry is, but overall, I think he's going to be a better player. He's already superior at everything else, and if the end of last season is any indication, don't be surprised if Lowry averages more PPG next season than Terry does.
how did i criticize Jamison for the Cavs failure? where did i say that? I said that he barely had any effect in the Cavs playoff run and was pretty much non-existent. And Terry brings a different element and type of scoring that Lowry does, that'd stretch the floor for Bynum and Gay. And the future or next season doesn't really matter we're talking about right now.


Bottom line, your logic is flawed. You say the other team is stacked with scoring, but Melo is such the superior scorer to Gay that it's not even funny. Surround him with three or four guys who can put up 10-15 a night and solid team defenders and that's a team capable of making a deep playoff run. Louisville doesn't even have a legit No. 1 option offensively in my mind. Gay has never carried a playoff team, and you can argue that the Grizzlies were better without him on the floor.
Louisville does have better scorers besides Melo. Just because Melo is a prolific scorer that doesn't mean Madison has a better scoring team. They also have a better defensive team as well.


And the one argument that is absolute irrefutable is the "Bynum foul trouble" argument. If Bynum picks up early fouls, who in the hell guards Duncan? Anybody with a shred of common sense would look at the two rosters and immediately see that flaw...
someone else already countered that false statement.

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 01:16 PM
how did i criticize Jamison for the Cavs failure? where did i say that? I said that he barely had any effect in the Cavs playoff run and was pretty much non-existent. And Terry brings a different element and type of scoring that Lowry does, that'd stretch the floor for Bynum and Gay. And the future or next season doesn't really matter we're talking about right now.
Lowry can't stretch the floor for Duncan and Melo? He shot .376 from 3s last season. :shrug: I just don't understand how people can think that Madison doesn't have enough scoring.


Louisville does have better scorers besides Melo. Just because Melo is a prolific scorer that doesn't mean Madison has a better scoring team. They also have a better defensive team as well.
In terms of scoring...
Lawson = Lowry (though I personally prefer Lowry)
Bell << Carter
Melo >> Gay
Jamison >> Martin
Duncan > Bynum

So, essentially, position by position, Madison has them beat scoring-wise in three out of five positions. So how do they have better scorers?


someone else already countered that false statement.
He brought up regular season statistics, but just because Bynum didn't foul out doesn't mean he didn't get into foul trouble. On Feb. 3, Bynum had four fouls against SA in a 89-88 loss and at least one of those was from Duncan. He had five fouls in another game against SA last season.

Regardless, we're talking about a player who averaged 27 minutes a game last year. The whole point of this argument is "who is going to guard Duncan when Bynum's off the floor?" Even if Louisville can get 30 minutes a night out of Bynum, who guards Duncan for the other 18, because they don't have another true center on that team? And that's before you consider the whole "injury prone" thing.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 01:18 PM
I think you're seriously overplaying Duncan's struggles based on a single playoff series, and when I mean "step up," I mean that I don't expect anyone on your team to take over a came in the postseason. If you want examples look at Dirk, Lebron, Randolph and Durant in this postseason and some of the games they dominated. You need to have that guy who's going to put the team on his back and get two points regardless of the situation. If you're down by 10 and the offense isn't working, he has to be the guy to open up the offense. When you're down by 3 with less than a minute left, he's the guy who's taking the shot. These are intangibles that can't be measured in advanced statistics. His team has them. Your team doesn't.

Who on his team has these "step up" intangibles? It certainly isn't Melo and can you really depend on Timmy to drop 14 in the 4th quarter at this stage in his career? I agree, having a guy like Dirk, LeBron or Durant certainly gives a team an advantage. He doesn't have one though

Look at the usage rate for all of these players. Gay's was 21.6 (78th), Lawson was 19.3 (119th) and Bynum was 16.3 (199th). Now that doesn't necessarily rule Gay out of being a No. 1, but it certainly doesn't help the other two. You just can't run an offense around those two. Paul Pierce is only 21.8, for example, but let's look at Pierce's other numbers. We can put aside Pierce's better defensive numbers, Finals MVP and efficiency superiority, but look at offensive win shares. Pierce: 6.5; Gay: 2.7. Even in a full season (2009-10), Gay managed only 4.0 win shares to Pierce's 5.0. But just for fun, let's look at offensive stats in the postseason. Oh, that's right, Gay doesn't have any because he's a playoff virgin! And you can rip Melo for not getting out of the first round more than one time, but the dude had inferior teams and was instrumental in their 2009 run (24.3 PER, .201 WS/48. .564 TS% and 27, 6 and 4 in 16 games). He also put up solid numbers in 2007, 2010 and 2011.

You're taking usage rate completly out of context for those three guys. All three played on extremley deep teams and didn't get the looks they would on a majority of teams. Although it actually helps my argument, as it shows how productive they can be without the touches they should be getting. :laugh: i like how you conviently use Pierce, but every team can't have a future HOF on it. And Pierce didn't regress at all compared to the level of Duncan.

I absolutely love how you just get done talking about "intangibles" and "looking past advanced stats" and then use them to try and make Carmelo's 7 1st round exit's passable. Fact is the guy is one of the best scorers in basketball, but has yet to prove he can carry a team in the playoffs. You can shout inferior teams all you want, but there are several guys in the NBA who have done more with worse teams

And if you want an additional reason to knock Bynum and Lawson, how about sample size? Look at Bynum's poor postseason numbers prior to this last season. Prior to this season, he didn't even post 25 minutes a night in those Lakers' championship runs. And Lawson put up great numbers this year in a losing effort. If you're going to rip Melo for not getting out of the first round, then Lawson's success is pointless and if you're going to rip Duncan for one bad postseason, then why isn't it fair to discount Bynum and Lawson for one successful postseason?

Because both players aren't 35 years old and have been improving each season they've been in the league. They aren't one year wonders which points to them becoming much better; especially in an increased role. And you conviently leave out Playoff veterans like VC, Martin, Bogans and Juwan Howard who all have been to the playoffs a copious amount of times. It's not like the Grizzlies or OKC had a wealth of playoff experience this season either.
Also, go ahead an knock Duncan for one bad season, but guess what? His PER was higher than any player on your roster, Gay and Bynum included. And so his TS% was down this year (53.7)? In 2004-2005, his TS% was only (54.0) when they won a championship. He also posted lower TS% numbers in 2000-01, 2003-04 and 2005-06. His TS% was also higher this season than Monta Ellis, Al Jefferson, Caron Butler, Stephen Jackson and Joe Johnson, just to name a few top scorers. A high TS% does not necessarily make a great player and a low one does not necessarily make a poor player.

I never talked about TS% in my last post. Also, if you look at your little list, there is only one other big on it; because bigs are held to a higher standard of effeciency. Anyway, the point i'm trying to highlight with Duncan is the fact that he isn't the same HOF player anymore. He layed an egg in the regular season and the playoffs; are we supposed to assume he'll be back to his normal self at the ripe age of 35? He's still really really good and a top 10 C, but where you put him on that list is certainly debateable.



Bolded

Corey
09-05-2011, 01:21 PM
:laugh2: In 6? Please enlighten me on how this would happen.

It's my opinion.

I already stated why I liked Louisville.

It's not really something to laugh about, that just makes you look like you have a 'holier than thou' attitude because you're a higher seed. :\

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 01:27 PM
Lowry can't stretch the floor for Duncan and Melo? He shot .376 from 3s last season. :shrug: I just don't understand how people can think that Madison doesn't have enough scoring.


In terms of scoring...
Lawson = Lowry (though I personally prefer Lowry)
Bell << Carter
Melo >> Gay
Jamison >> Martin
Duncan > Bynum

So, essentially, position by position, Madison has them beat scoring-wise in three out of five positions. So how do they have better scorers?


He brought up regular season statistics, but just because Bynum didn't foul out doesn't mean he didn't get into foul trouble. On Feb. 3, Bynum had four fouls against SA in a 89-88 loss and at least one of those was from Duncan. He had five fouls in another game against SA last season.

Regardless, we're talking about a player who averaged 27 minutes a game last year. The whole point of this argument is "who is going to guard Duncan when Bynum's off the floor?" Even if Louisville can get 30 minutes a night out of Bynum, who guards Duncan for the other 18, because they don't have another true center on that team? And that's before you consider the whole "injury prone" thing.

The all powerful "> = <" I'd love to see you back-up Lowry being a better offensive player than Lawson (his starting numbers). You also talk about Duncan like he's going to drop 40 minutes a game. Bynum will play around 32 mins a game (which he just did this season in the playoffs) and i can't imagine Duncan playing more. Even if he stretches to 35 a game, that's 3 unaccounted minutes of Bynum not on Duncan. Oh snap.

Actually Bynum has been a more effective offensive player than Duncan the past two seasons. He's had a much higher FG%, TS %, and eFG% while posting better ORting's both years. Unfortunately, Bynum has been stuck behind 2 HOF players on the food chain and hasn't gotten the usg% that he should be getting.

Corey
09-05-2011, 01:49 PM
I dont think Duncan is a better offensive player than Bynum at this point in their careers. Bynum has been damn near dominant when he's healthy.

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 02:46 PM
Who on his team has these "step up" intangibles? It certainly isn't Melo and can you really depend on Timmy to drop 14 in the 4th quarter at this stage in his career? I agree, having a guy like Dirk, LeBron or Durant certainly gives a team an advantage. He doesn't have one though
How are Melo and Duncan not capable of being those players? Melo can easily carry a team on his back offensively and has done that for the better part of a decade. Look at this series against Boston. No, he wasn't particularly efficient, but his 42 in game two was the only thing that kept New York in that game with Stoudemire out for the second half and Billups missing the entire game.


You're taking usage rate completly out of context for those three guys. All three played on extremley deep teams and didn't get the looks they would on a majority of teams. Although it actually helps my argument, as it shows how productive they can be without the touches they should be getting. i like how you conviently use Pierce, but every team can't have a future HOF on it. And Pierce didn't regress at all compared to the level of Duncan.
I'm not buying LA as "extremely deep" anymore. Kobe, Pau, Odom, Bynum. That's it. Who else is going to score on that roster? Frankly, if Bynum were a better player, he would get better looks. Playing next to Pau doesn't help him any, but it's not as if Pau has a high usage rate either (20.6).


I absolutely love how you just get done talking about "intangibles" and "looking past advanced stats" and then use them to try and make Carmelo's 7 1st round exit's passable. Fact is the guy is one of the best scorers in basketball, but has yet to prove he can carry a team in the playoffs. You can shout inferior teams all you want, but there are several guys in the NBA who have done more with worse teams.
I'm using advanced statistics to prove that he's not as terrible as you're making him out to be. I think context and statistics kind of go hand in hand and you can't be entirely reliant on either to make your point. And say what you will about Melo, but I honestly believe that this might be the best team he would have ever played on. Denver had its moments, but they were never this strong defensively or had this many options offensively.


And you conviently leave out Playoff veterans like VC, Martin, Bogans and Juwan Howard who all have been to the playoffs a copious amount of times. It's not like the Grizzlies or OKC had a wealth of playoff experience this season either.
Wow... Are you REALLY going to argue Bogans and Howard as significant pieces on your playoff team? Because I don't think you want to go there. And both K-Mart and VC are shells of their former selves. They had some decent playoff runs in New Jersey, but that time has since passed. Martin is nothing more than a serviceable defensive 4 who can give you 25-30 minutes a night and a few athletic plays and VC is no better than a No. 3 scorer who still takes way too many shots and is a defensive liability. On your team, however, he'll likely have to be the No. 2 guy...


Anyway, the point i'm trying to highlight with Duncan is the fact that he isn't the same HOF player anymore. He layed an egg in the regular season and the playoffs; are we supposed to assume he'll be back to his normal self at the ripe age of 35? He's still really really good and a top 10 C, but where you put him on that list is certainly.
I don't think it's fair to say he "laid an egg" just because he didn't put up 20/10. Yeah, he played fewer minutes and his numbers dropped a bit. He is 35 years old. No, he is not an elite offensive big man anymore. But that doesn't mean I still wouldn't give him the ball with 30 seconds left in a playoff game, or that I wouldn't trust him to shut down the opposing team's big man in the postseason. The dude is a first ballot hall of famer, a top 10 player all time and one of the most clutch big men in the history of the NBA. Age can take a lot of things away from NBA players, but competitiveness isn't one of them.


The all powerful "> = <" I'd love to see you back-up Lowry being a better offensive player than Lawson (his starting numbers).
Look at their numbers post all-star break (when both players were starting).
Lowry: 16.8 ppg, 7.3 apg, 2.2 topg, 4.5 rpg, 1.1 spg, .435/.394/.850 shooting percentages
Lawson: 14.4 ppg, 6.9 apg, 2.1 topg, 3.4 rpg, 1.4 spg, .506/.424/.838 shooting percentages

I'd say that's pretty darn close, but Lowry scores more, has a better ast/to ratio and is a better defensive player. So, yeah, I'd pick Lowry over Lawson and I wouldn't think twice about it.


You also talk about Duncan like he's going to drop 40 minutes a game. Bynum will play around 32 mins a game (which he just did this season in the playoffs) and i can't imagine Duncan playing more. Even if he stretches to 35 a game, that's 3 unaccounted minutes of Bynum not on Duncan. Oh snap.
Assuming Bynum is healthy and doesn't get into foul trouble (big ifs, IMO), I'll give him 32 a night and Duncan 35 a night. That doesn't mean Bynum will be on the floor for 32 minutes that Duncan is on the floor. Based on rotations, you've got to think that your defense will have to deal with Duncan on the floor and no Bynum for 8-10 minutes a night. Those minutes would be a problem.


Actually Bynum has been a more effective offensive player than Duncan the past two seasons. He's had a much higher FG%, TS %, and eFG% while posting better ORting's both years. Unfortunately, Bynum has been stuck behind 2 HOF players on the food chain and hasn't gotten the usg% that he should be getting.
You could easily make the argument that Bynum's numbers are so good BECAUSE his usage rate is so low and BECAUSE he's playing with two HOF players, couldn't you? Take Pau out of the equation and make Bynum the No. 2 and there's no doubt in my mind that those numbers dip significantly. I'd still rather have Duncan on the defensive side of the ball, and I think he's more likely to take over a game in the 4th quarter than Bynum is.

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 02:52 PM
I dont think Duncan is a better offensive player than Bynum at this point in their careers. Bynum has been damn near dominant when he's healthy.

How do you figure this? He got the most looks in 2009-10, when he averaged 15 points a game. How is 15 a night "damn near dominant?" Remember that time Bynum completely took over in the fourth quarter and imposed his will, putting up 15 in the 4th quarter to push his team to victory? No, I don't remember that either.

Bynum is what he is. He's an injury prone center who plays great defense in limited minutes and can make shots efficiently as long as he's within eight feet of the basket. That doesn't make him a "dominant" offensive player. Is he a top 10 center? Yes. But if you ask me to take Bynum or Duncan right now for one playoff game, I would take Duncan and not think twice about it. Anyone who would say otherwise is completely fooling themselves or must be trying REALLY hard to convince themselves of Bynum's greatness.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 03:10 PM
I enjoy the back and forth MBT, but we're simply of different mind-set on how to view these teams. I say Bynum would benefit greatly by being a #2 and you say he would drastically decline without Pau or Kobe. I say Duncan has mightly regressed from his career totals and is really showing age and you say he's still got a lot left in the tank and can carry a team like he used to. It comes down to a matter of opinion on how you view these guys and fortunately for me, people like the potential of a Bynum w/o Pau or Kobe taking shots and Rudy Gay being a legit #1 option and think i can hang with the rest of the Madison roster. Otherwise, the voting would be nearly as close as it is.

Also, I clearly didn't say Bogans or Howard would play significant roles on my team. But they are playoff veterans who have experience and can be valuable mentors. I also think it's funny how you bring up Martin and VC being "shells of their former selves" I'm not asking them to do what they did in their primes; All i need from Martin is his excellent Post D and rebounding and Carter to be a factor on the offensive end while bringing the playoff experience that they both have.

McJoe
09-05-2011, 03:48 PM
I didn't really realize the anti-Melo bias was this great. Melo+Duncan is one of the best combos in this thing and Madison has a solid supporting cast around it. I'd take Madison.

Sadds The Gr8
09-05-2011, 03:51 PM
Melo hasn't done much in the playoffs (only been past the 1st round once) and Duncan is close to done.

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 03:56 PM
Melo hasn't done much in the playoffs (only been past the 1st round once) and Duncan is close to done.

And Louisville's team has been super successful in the playoffs? Gay hasn't even played a playoff game! You have yet to pose a single valid argument for why Louisville should win this series.

Sadds The Gr8
09-05-2011, 04:02 PM
did u miss 08 and 09 when the Lakers repeated with Bynum healthy? how's that for validity? and how is saying Terry is a more prolific scorer than Lowry invalid? lmfao.

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 04:19 PM
Jamal you argue that melo has not led a team yet nobody on your team has been even close to leading a team in the playoffs.

The usg rate argument is so flawed. Bynum has a low usg rate which makes his efficiency stats better. If he was given a higher usage rate it's likely that his efficiency would be worse. It's not an indication that he van produce more with the same efficiency. And again because Bynum played with gasoline the attention was off of him in the post and he had he easier matchup. And bynum would get in foul trouble like he did in their matchups this year. And that leaves mcroberts on Duncan.

And you bash Duncan to he'll because of one playoff series yet gays team did better with him out and Bynum hasn't proven he can play excess minutes

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 04:20 PM
did u miss 08 and 09 when the Lakers repeated with Bynum healthy? how's that for validity?
Because he was hardly that much of a factor on those teams playing fewer than 25 minutes a game and not even averaging double digits in scoring. Sorry if I'm not impressed by a 15.8 usage rate in the postseason...


and how is saying Terry is a more prolific scorer than Lowry invalid? lmfao.
Because Terry isn't even on Louisville's team! The only reason I brought up Terry was to prove that you don't have to have two 20-point scorers to win an NBA championship.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 04:32 PM
Jamal you argue that melo has not led a team yet nobody on your team has been even close to leading a team in the playoffs.

The usg rate argument is so flawed. Bynum has a low usg rate which makes his efficiency stats better. If he was given a higher usage rate it's likely that his efficiency would be worse. It's not an indication that he van produce more with the same efficiency. And again because Bynum played with gasoline the attention was off of him in the post and he had he easier matchup. And bynum would get in foul trouble like he did in their matchups this year. And that leaves mcroberts on Duncan.

And you bash Duncan to he'll because of one playoff series yet gays team did better with him out and Bynum hasn't proven he can play excess minutes

You literally couldn't be more speculative. I've already given stats that Bynum has become a much smarter player in regards to fouls/game which has gone down the last 3 years. Also, in 12 matchups vs Duncan he has yet to foul out and averaged 2.8 fouls per game.

How the hell do you know Bynum wouldn't score with the same efeciency with more looks? Guys like Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard, Chris Bosh, Dirk Nowitzki who are all dominant big men became even more effecient as they got more looks. It's pure speculation that Bynum would get worse and using other dominant big men as an example points to Bynum keeping his effecincy.

I'm so bloody tired of this whole notion that the Grizz are a better team w/o Gay. The Grizz were fantastic in the playoffs but they were missing a perimeter scoring presence who could create his own shot. Gee, I wonder where they can find one of those?

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 04:35 PM
I didn't really realize the anti-Melo bias was this great. Melo+Duncan is one of the best combos in this thing and Madison has a solid supporting cast around it. I'd take Madison.

So Raja Bell starting and a 2 man bench is a good supporting cast?

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 04:36 PM
either way this match-up is certainly epic

Sadds The Gr8
09-05-2011, 04:36 PM
Because he was hardly that much of a factor on those teams playing fewer than 25 minutes a game and not even averaging double digits in scoring. Sorry if I'm not impressed by a 15.8 usage rate in the postseason...
he did a pretty good job of guarding Howard in the finals.


Because Terry isn't even on Louisville's team! The only reason I brought up Terry was to prove that you don't have to have two 20-point scorers to win an NBA championship.

i know that...u compared his team to the Mavs, which I don't think is comparable because Melo isn't close to being the efficient offensive player Dirk is...and Lowry isn't a 2nd option on a contender

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 04:44 PM
You literally couldn't be more speculative. I've already given stats that Bynum has become a much smarter player in regards to fouls/game which has gone down the last 3 years. Also, in 12 matchups vs Duncan he has yet to foul out and averaged 2.8 fouls per game.
And as I've stated earlier, Bynum had four and five fouls in a couple of games against the Spurs last season. So to think he's never going to be in foul trouble guarding Duncan in the playoffs when he was in foul trouble twice in the regular season is just naive.


How the hell do you know Bynum wouldn't score with the same efeciency with more looks?
How do you know that he WILL score with the same efficiency if he got more looks? The whole re-draft is speculative, so to pose a question like that is a two-way street.


I'm so bloody tired of this whole notion that the Grizz are a better team w/o Gay. The Grizz were fantastic in the playoffs but they were missing a perimeter scoring presence who could create his own shot. Gee, I wonder where they can find one of those?
Maybe it's not fair to say that. But you CAN easily see that the Grizzlies did not make the playoffs with Gay, but went all the way to the Western Conference Finals without him. Does that say more about the lack of his impact on the team or how well the rest of the team played in his absence? Who knows, but the bottom line is that it brings into question how valuable he is to that team...

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 04:49 PM
You literally couldn't be more speculative. I've already given stats that Bynum has become a much smarter player in regards to fouls/game which has gone down the last 3 years. Also, in 12 matchups vs Duncan he has yet to foul out and averaged 2.8 fouls per game.
Well why the **** would you use games when Bynum was a rookie? You know how you don't like when we criticize Bynum for never playing over 30 minutes in a playoff series except one year? Well you're using his stats from back then also. And it makes no sense. You want the Bynum of last year? Fine. He had 4 fouls and 5 fouls in their last two matchups. Just because he doesn't foul out doesn't mean he wasn't in foul trouble

How the hell do you know Bynum wouldn't score with the same efeciency with more looks?

How do you know he's going to keep the efficiency and raise production??!?! It's all speculation. If you can do it so can I..


Guys like Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard, Chris Bosh, Dirk Nowitzki who are all dominant big men became even more effecient as they got more looks. It's pure speculation that Bynum would get worse and using other dominant big men as an example points to Bynum keeping his effecincy.

Yeah 11 points per game and he can't even play 30 minutes per game. He screams dominant :rolleyes: He's had one good postseason. The others he was underwhelming and he always has health issues. To say he's going to be better with the same efficiency is speculation in the first place..

I'm so bloody tired of this whole notion that the Grizz are a better team w/o Gay. The Grizz were fantastic in the playoffs but they were missing a perimeter scoring presence who could create his own shot. Gee, I wonder where they can find one of those?

It didn't look like they were missing a perimeter scoring presence against the Spurs?.. The fact is that the team didn't miss him. They performed very well even without him. That's not the signs of a good number one option. He has never been to the playoffs. That's not a sign of a number one option that can lead a team in the playoffs.

It makes no sense to bash Melo when you have a playoff virgin in Rudy Gay as your number one option. Absolutely no sense.

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 04:59 PM
he did a pretty good job of guarding Howard in the finals.
He played 18 minutes a game in that series. Howard played 42. You do the math.


i know that...u compared his team to the Mavs, which I don't think is comparable because Melo isn't close to being the efficient offensive player Dirk is...and Lowry isn't a 2nd option on a contender
But Lowry isn't their No. 2 scorer, he's like their third or fourth guy, so isn't that a moot point?

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 05:16 PM
Well why the **** would you use games when Bynum was a rookie? You know how you don't like when we criticize Bynum for never playing over 30 minutes in a playoff series except one year? Well you're using his stats from back then also. And it makes no sense. You want the Bynum of last year? Fine. He had 4 fouls and 5 fouls in their last two matchups. Just because he doesn't foul out doesn't mean he wasn't in foul trouble


How do you know he's going to keep the efficiency and raise production??!?! It's all speculation. If you can do it so can I..

Indeed it is. But at least i backed my speculation with some kind of evidence rather than just saying "Bynum would suck with more touches".. Bynum has just as much offensive talent as most big guys in the NBA ; why is it far-stretched to think he'll produce more with more touches?

Yeah 11 points per game and he can't even play 30 minutes per game. He screams dominant :rolleyes: He's had one good postseason. The others he was underwhelming and he always has health issues. To say he's going to be better with the same efficiency is speculation in the first place..

I've already explained this way too much. Bynum doesn't get the looks he should on the Lakers and is 3rd or even 4th on the food chain. As a 2nd option, he gets a chance to finally show what kind of talent he really is



It didn't look like they were missing a perimeter scoring presence against the Spurs?.. The fact is that the team didn't miss him. They performed very well even without him. That's not the signs of a good number one option. He has never been to the playoffs. That's not a sign of a number one option that can lead a team in the playoffs.

How do you know they wouldn't have beat OKC and the Mavs with Gay? Because you don't. But by using a bit of common sense here, most teams improve when adding a 19 PPG scorer to their team. It was obvious that Memphis needed a perimiter scoring presence when the 3s weren't falling.

It makes no sense to bash Melo when you have a playoff virgin in Rudy Gay as your number one option. Absolutely no sense.

I'll bash Carmelo all i want. There's no doubt he's a top 3 scorer in basketball and a top 10-15 player in the NBA. It still doesn't change the fact that he has been a failure in the playoffs and been a 1st round exit 7 times. Guys like LeBron, Dwight, CP3 and Deron Williams have all lead their teams with much less talented teams than what Melo has gotten to play for.


Bolded

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 05:33 PM
Indeed it is. But at least i backed my speculation with some kind of evidence rather than just saying "Bynum would suck with more touches".. Bynum has just as much offensive talent as most big guys in the NBA ; why is it far-stretched to think he'll produce more with more touches?

Did I say Bynum would suck? No. I said his efficiency may decrease which is a fair case as it's happened to many.


I've already explained this way too much. Bynum doesn't get the looks he should on the Lakers and is 3rd or even 4th on the food chain. As a 2nd option, he gets a chance to finally show what kind of talent he really is

Way to ignore what i said about him BENEFITING from playing next to a star big and having such a good supporting cast because of better looks and less attention on him. If he's the second option you bet your *** people are gameplanning against him and life will be harder for him. No denying that.


How do you know they wouldn't have beat OKC and the Mavs with Gay? Because you don't. But by using a bit of common sense here, most teams improve when adding a 19 PPG scorer to their team. It was obvious that Memphis needed a perimiter scoring presence when the 3s weren't falling.

You're bringing all of this up when I never said anything about the OKC series. But you don't realize that they'd lose defense if they put Gay in. Having defenders such as Battier and Allen in the game is part of what made them so good without Gay. Gay also took away touches from ZBo. If Gay is in, ZBo isn't as dominant, and who knows if they win the series. I don't think you understand the concept that you need to take someone out to add someone. One of their defenders would have to be subbed out and who knows what effect that may have had.


I'll bash Carmelo all i want. There's no doubt he's a top 3 scorer in basketball and a top 10-15 player in the NBA. It still doesn't change the fact that he has been a failure in the playoffs and been a 1st round exit 7 times. Guys like LeBron, Dwight, CP3 and Deron Williams have all lead their teams with much less talented teams than what Melo has gotten to play for.

Look at the teams he lost to. Look at your team. You aren't nearly as good and our team may be the best supporting cast Melo has ever been given. When Melo was given the right supporting cast he led his team to the WCF and almost knocked off the eventual champion Lakers. This year was an aberration. He was literally playing alone against the Celtics. Him and Toney Douglas.

Do you have Dwight, CP3, Deron or Lebron btw? Nope. You have a playoff virgin as your first option and a guy who has played over 25+ minutes per game once as your second option

MiamiWadeCounty
09-05-2011, 05:48 PM
Having defenders such as Battier in the game is part of what made them so good without Gay.

:worthy: ;)

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 06:01 PM
:worthy: ;)

:laugh: You got me

MiamiWadeCounty
09-05-2011, 06:06 PM
:laugh: You got me

:bow:

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 06:31 PM
29-29 is the official vote

****'s getting real

Sportfan
09-05-2011, 06:32 PM
fffff, i should held my vote till the end

McJoe
09-05-2011, 06:45 PM
So Raja Bell starting and a 2 man bench is a good supporting cast?

I said solid. I didn't say good. I like Lowry as a PG at least as much as Lawson. Always liked Lowry. Bell can still shoot and play decent defence if not elite defence anymore. And Jamison is a scorer and should be able to put up some decent numbers, especially when you have to double Duncan or Melo. Someone has to be open. And I like Barbosa, Thomas, and Farmar off the bench. They aren't fantastic but they are solid. Barbosa can add scoring off the bench.

Similarly to how he will have to double Gay and possibly Bynum but Martin can't score with Jamison and Carter IMO isn't near the same player. Bell can't stop Gay but he can maybe contain him. You don't really have anyone who can contain Melo who is at worst a top 5-8 scorer in the league no matter how much bias there is against him. He could absolutely go off in this series if he gets hot and I think he has too much chance to.

MiamiWadeCounty
09-05-2011, 06:54 PM
I still have my vote available. I am not sure if I want to vote since it is so close though. Just want to say that all the GMs have done a great job arguing and I am impressed by both sides.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 06:56 PM
.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 06:57 PM
I said solid. I didn't say good. I like Lowry as a PG at least as much as Lawson. Always liked Lowry. Bell can still shoot and play decent defence if not elite defence anymore. And Jamison is a scorer and should be able to put up some decent numbers, especially when you have to double Duncan or Melo. Someone has to be open. And I like Barbosa, Thomas, and Farmar off the bench. They aren't fantastic but they are solid. Barbosa can add scoring off the bench.

Similarly to how he will have to double Gay and possibly Bynum but Martin can't score with Jamison and Carter IMO isn't near the same player. Bell can't stop Gay but he can maybe contain him. You don't really have anyone who can contain Melo who is at worst a top 5-8 scorer in the league no matter how much bias there is against him. He could absolutely go off in this series if he gets hot and I think he has too much chance to.

Bell contain Gay? are you ****ing kidding me? Do I need to go bring up the stats that show how terrible of a defender he was last year? He also shot an incredible 35% from 3 last season; his lowest since the 2002 season. And you're completly underrating Gay as a defender. Melo is one of those handful of people who will always get his points, but Gay has made Melo work to get his on average to below average efficiency.

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 07:02 PM
I still have my vote available. I am not sure if I want to vote since it is so close though. Just want to say that all the GMs have done a great job arguing and I am impressed by both sides.

:laugh2: You said you thought we would win! I can't imagine you go ahead and vote for Louisville now

MiamiWadeCounty
09-05-2011, 07:06 PM
:laugh2: You said you thought we would win! I can't imagine you go ahead and vote for Louisville now

Yeah I will most likely not vote for Louisville, if I vote at all. I still think you have the superior team.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 07:09 PM
Cmon MWC. There's still room on the Louisville bandwagon train :)

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 07:42 PM
Yeah I will most likely not vote for Louisville, if I vote at all. I still think you have the superior team.

Then vote! Your co didn't hesitate to vote..

clehmun
09-05-2011, 07:44 PM
Then vote! Your co didn't hesitate to vote..

He's not going to vote because he doesn't want to help us get through this round, then have to face us later in the playoffs.

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 07:46 PM
Yeah I will most likely not vote for Louisville, if I vote at all. I still think you have the superior team.

Wow... So you've done the entire re-draft and you know how much time we've all put in, but when it comes time to vote you refuse "because it's close" even though you know which team is better? Why don't you just say "I'm not voting because I don't want to face Madison in the conference finals." At least then you'd be honest...

:eyebrow:

clehmun
09-05-2011, 07:48 PM
Can I get the official vote count please?

John Walls Era
09-05-2011, 07:56 PM
Wow... So you've done the entire re-draft and you know how much time we've all put in, but when it comes time to vote you refuse "because it's close" even though you know which team is better? Why don't you just say "I'm not voting because I don't want to face Madison in the conference finals." At least then you'd be honest...

:eyebrow:

I'm Worried more about Pitt tbh with you.

Sportfan
09-05-2011, 07:58 PM
funny thing is, if he thought Louisville was the superior team you'd all be ridiculing him for trying to avoid madison anyway. lay off him

MiamiWadeCounty
09-05-2011, 08:03 PM
funny thing is, if he thought Louisville was the superior team you'd all be ridiculing him for trying to avoid madison anyway. lay off him

If I really want to avoid Madison I would just vote for Louisville. I have even had three or four GMs who will remain nameless telling me to vote for Louisville to screw over Madison. I also don't see you guys give **** to Ebbs when he didn't even vote for playoff seeds.

Edit: Oh and thanks SF :love:

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 08:06 PM
funny thing is, if he thought Louisville was the superior team you'd all be ridiculing him for trying to avoid madison anyway. lay off him

Coret and JWE voted for Louisville, and nobody said squat! Those two very well could be two future matchups. In fact, whoever wins this plays the winner of Corey's matchup! But I don't think that is why he voted for them, he wouldn't do that. UTB voted for us anyways also

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 08:07 PM
If I really want to avoid Madison I would just vote for Louisville. I have even had three or four GMs who will remain nameless telling me to vote for Louisville to screw over Madison. I also don't see you guys give **** to Ebbs when he didn't even vote for playoff seeds.

Edit: Oh and thanks SF :love:

PM me the names. Please. That's just a dick move. I commend you for not doing it but I'd like to know who

MiamiWadeCounty
09-05-2011, 08:10 PM
PM me the names. Please. That's just a dick move. I commend you for not doing it but I'd like to know who

I'm not going to rad out people. I hate when people do that **** to me, so there is no way I would do it to another under most circumstances.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 08:26 PM
official vote is 29-29

unleashthebeast
09-05-2011, 08:43 PM
Coret and JWE voted for Louisville, and nobody said squat! Those two very well could be two future matchups. In fact, whoever wins this plays the winner of Corey's matchup! But I don't think that is why he voted for them, he wouldn't do that. UTB voted for us anyways also

Yea I did. I couldnt give 2 ***** if we played you next round, and I wouldnt not vote for you because i am scared or something. I feel like you are the superior team, so I voted for you. No bias should be involved, at least in my opinion :shrug:

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 08:55 PM
lurkingolionsfan has under 100 posts, just making that clear in case he crosses 100 soon because he's a new user. when he voted he had under 100 so he does not count

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 09:01 PM
Official vote is 30-30

I have 2 votes with less than 100 posts and Madison has 1

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 09:01 PM
funny thing is, if he thought Louisville was the superior team you'd all be ridiculing him for trying to avoid madison anyway. lay off him

But he doesn't! He just came into the thread and openly admitted he thought Madison was the superior team, but still won't vote. At least if he had admitted he thought Louisville was better and voted for him, I could respect him if he stuck by that. But knowing which team you think is better and not voting for no particular reason is ****ing ridiculous. He's spent 100 times the amount of time it would have taken for him to vote on this to talk in this thread, but he won't vote? It's pathetic. If you or he were in the same situation, I'm sure rosh wouldn't come in here to tell you that you had the better team, and then not vote. I sure as hell wouldn't do it to you.

It's like walking up to someone hanging from a cliff and telling them that you could help them up, but then walking away...

NYMetros
09-05-2011, 09:07 PM
I have no idea how this is so close.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 09:10 PM
^If you read through the thread, you'll find some interesting discussions on why this is a close match-up

MiamiWadeCounty
09-05-2011, 09:30 PM
^If you read through the thread, you'll find some interesting discussions on why this is a close match-up

very true.

jeff86
09-05-2011, 09:45 PM
i just voted for louisville i hate to be the deciding vote here.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 09:51 PM
Don't feel bad at all. :)

roshan3ai
09-05-2011, 10:59 PM
Bump

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 11:24 PM
I would like to see more people explain their reasoning for why they chose Louisville. I'm not doubting that people might legitimately believe they are better, and I do believe Louisville matches up pretty well, but I'm curious of their reasoning. It can't be offense or experience. And I honestly don't see Louisville having a huge edge defensively, so what is it?

clehmun
09-05-2011, 11:28 PM
I would like to see more people explain their reasoning for why they chose Louisville. I'm not doubting that people might legitimately believe they are better, and I do believe Louisville matches up pretty well, but I'm curious of their reasoning. It can't be offense or experience. And I honestly don't see Louisville having a huge edge defensively, so what is it?

THIS:

If I really want to avoid Madison I would just vote for Louisville. I have even had three or four GMs who will remain nameless telling me to vote for Louisville to screw over Madison. I also don't see you guys give **** to Ebbs when he didn't even vote for playoff seeds.

Edit: Oh and thanks SF :love:

I'd lose a lot of respect for this forum if this was the truth.
I also think people like upsets. It's like as the Spurs/Grizzlies series got closer, more people started cheering for Memphis. Same thing with the Mavs/Warriors series a few years back.

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 11:35 PM
:laugh: you guys need to accept that people like my team and it's not just for the "upset" factor.

Ebbs
09-05-2011, 11:35 PM
MWC lolz trying to point the finger elsewhere. If GM's are actually telling you that than that needs to be addressed by phlp.

And agreed Clehmun upsets are exciting I have never seen an 8 seed beat a 1 seed. But I wouldn't vote for an 8th seed just for an upset if thats what your implying of people.

clehmun
09-05-2011, 11:38 PM
MWC lolz trying to point the finger elsewhere. If GM's are actually telling you that than that needs to be addressed by phlp.

And agreed Clehmun upsets are exciting I have never seen an 8 seed beat a 1 seed. But I wouldn't vote for an 8th seed just for an upset if thats what your implying of people.

you should post your vote here (you said you accidentally clicked GMs vote here).

The_Jamal
09-05-2011, 11:38 PM
The official count is 32-30. Zdtm13 has 0 posts lol so his vote obviously doesn't count

mightybosstone
09-05-2011, 11:44 PM
MWC lolz trying to point the finger elsewhere. If GM's are actually telling you that than that needs to be addressed by phlp.

And agreed Clehmun upsets are exciting I have never seen an 8 seed beat a 1 seed. But I wouldn't vote for an 8th seed just for an upset if thats what your implying of people.

Ebbs, what is your reasoning for not voting, just out of curiosity?

Eagles4Lyfe
09-05-2011, 11:51 PM
But he doesn't! He just came into the thread and openly admitted he thought Madison was the superior team, but still won't vote. At least if he had admitted he thought Louisville was better and voted for him, I could respect him if he stuck by that. But knowing which team you think is better and not voting for no particular reason is ****ing ridiculous. He's spent 100 times the amount of time it would have taken for him to vote on this to talk in this thread, but he won't vote? It's pathetic. If you or he were in the same situation, I'm sure rosh wouldn't come in here to tell you that you had the better team, and then not vote. I sure as hell wouldn't do it to you.

It's like walking up to someone hanging from a cliff and telling them that you could help them up, but then walking away...

I dont get why your even getting so emotionally involved, I don't even see you being listed as a GM for either teams. Let the guy be, get your vote and move on.

jeff86
09-05-2011, 11:52 PM
I voted for Louisville because I think they matchup really well.
Where madison is weak louisville is strong

Ebbs
09-05-2011, 11:57 PM
My reason for not voting was I accidentally clicked GM's. If my vote still counts I was going to vote Madison though I think it will be a close series. Reason being though I think Bynum is the better player out of him and Duncan they both play about the same amoutn of time yielding similar results. I also feel like Lowry will make a better game manager than Lawson. Also I don't buy Gay as a #1 option because he has never proved he can be one on a contending team. His team made it's greatest strides without him coincidence or not just doesn't speak well of him as the teams best player.

Hoenstly Jamal great job with your team though.

clehmun
09-06-2011, 12:01 AM
so can we count ebbs' vote towards Madison?

Mcnabb_vision
09-06-2011, 12:04 AM
louisville because theyre younger n talented...also madisons got a weak bench and washed up vets....

roshan3ai
09-06-2011, 12:07 AM
I voted for Louisville because I think they matchup really well.
Where madison is weak louisville is strong

Where are we weak? They are strong at SF and C, and we clearly have the better SF and arguably the better C. At PG Lowry has the edge over Lawson. At SG we have Barbosa and Bell wherre they have Carter and Bogans, where they have a slight edge. And at PF they have KMart, who didn't even play half the season and played only 25 minutes a game and I have Jamison who still put up 18 points on a crappy Cavs team. They do have solid depth, but I really don't see that as a weakness for us either... Bynum has gotten in foul trouble with Duncan before, and McRoberts cannot play Center. Their bigs play a combined 53 minutes per game in the regular season. And this is the first time Bynum played more than 24 minutes in the playoffs...

The_Jamal
09-06-2011, 12:08 AM
I think that Phlp's call to make. But currently:

34-31 without ebbs vote

34-32 with his vote

roshan3ai
09-06-2011, 12:11 AM
32-36 now. Fan****ingtastic

The_Jamal
09-06-2011, 12:14 AM
^technically 31-36. I'd like Phlp to decide on ebbs vote before we count it

roshan3ai
09-06-2011, 12:19 AM
^technically 31-36. I'd like Phlp to decide on ebbs vote before we count it

Okay, but there's really no reason it wouldn't count

The_Jamal
09-06-2011, 12:26 AM
^ You're right, but i don't think it our place as Gm's to decide where votes go, even if it is pretty obvious. Just keeps it fair

mightybosstone
09-06-2011, 01:00 AM
louisville because theyre younger n talented...also madisons got a weak bench and washed up vets....

:pity:

The worst argument I've heard yet.

The_Jamal
09-06-2011, 02:25 AM
Last count of the night for me:


38-34 with ebbs vote

we'll just assume Phlp says ebbs vote counts and say Louisville has a 4-vote lead going into tomorrow

phlp_bj
09-06-2011, 03:08 AM
ebbs vote will count

MiamiWadeCounty
09-06-2011, 07:13 AM
Voted for Madison. Great job by both GMs.