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JordansBulls
09-03-2011, 11:24 PM
Voting for #29 has concluded and PSD's Official #29 NBA Player of all time is....

Isiah Thomas

Top 3 Voting:
Isiah Thomas = 19 votes
Allen Iverson = 7 votes
Clyde Drexler = 5 votes



The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)
20. Kevin Garnett (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641975)
21. LeBron James (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511)
22. Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643161)
23. Bob Pettit (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=644031)
24. John Havlicek (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645330)
25. Elgin Baylor (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645990)
26. Dwyane Wade (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=646496)
27. Scottie Pippen (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=647144)
28. Rick Barry (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=648440)
29. Isiah Thomas (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649170)


Voting will now begin for the #30 NBA Player All Time

NOTE: You can only nominate one player and that player had to be an allstar multiple times at least probably at least 3 times at a minimum. The player who has the most nomination votes will be added to the next poll. Anyone who nominates more than one player there nomination will be disregarded.


2nd NOTE: Have seen a lot of posters just vote, but not make a single comment in the thread on there choice. We need you to participate and say why you chose who you did. Basically support it. If not, then don't see why your vote should count.

With the lack of participation and just voting, we will do the voting another way now to get more participation.

These are the players that can be voted for the #30 spot.

Willis Reed
Elgin Baylor
Bob Cousy
Gary Payton
Patrick Ewing
Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Sam Jones
Walt Frazier
Allen Iverson
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Bob Mcadoo
Bill Walton
George Gervin
Kevin McHale
James Worthy
Reggie Miller
Elvin Hayes
Dolph Schayes
Nate Thurmond
Shawn Kemp
Alonzo Mourning
Kevin Johnson
Jerry Lucas
Robert Parish
Nate Thurmond
Paul Pierce
Pau Gasol

JordansBulls
09-03-2011, 11:29 PM
I'm taking Ewing here. Pretty much was the best center in the league thru 1993 and then Hakeem and Robinson took over.

Hellcrooner
09-03-2011, 11:33 PM
frazier, led the knicks to not one but two titles.

nominate artis gilmore for the umptenth time.

Swashcuff
09-03-2011, 11:36 PM
Vote: Walt Frazier (Kudos to patsSOXknicks for giving me insight and helping me make this decision)
Nominate: Artis Gilmore

Swashcuff
09-03-2011, 11:36 PM
frazier, led the knicks to not one but two titles.

nominate artis gilmore for the umptenth time.

Isn't this your 2nd time nominating him Croon?

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 12:03 AM
Isn't this your 2nd time nominating him Croon?

more like 5th or something like that

pd7631
09-04-2011, 12:17 AM
Allen Iverson

I've provided more reasons for AI to be voted in than people have given for the last 3-5 players chosen in these polls. It would be nice if people could justify why they think the person they choose should be picked. I also find it funny that some have said things like, "I'm voting for_________, because I don't want Allen Iverson to win".

I am nominating Chris Webber.

Lakersfan2483
09-04-2011, 12:18 AM
I am taking Patrick Ewing at this spot. He was one of the premier centers and players in the NBA throughout most of his career. He was a top notch defensive/offensive anchor for the Knicks consistently for multiple seasons. He was a perennial all star, all nba 1st and 2nd team most of his career, led a team to the finals as the no. 1 guy (lost in 7 to Hakeem and the Rockets), scored over 20,000 pts, and grabbed over 10,000 rebs for his career. He's in the 2nd tier in terms of all time great centers. He's behind guys like Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Russell, Hakeem and Moses. He's on the next tier with Robinson, Reed, Parrish and Walton...

Nominations: Adrian Dantley

PatsSoxKnicks
09-04-2011, 12:37 AM
I love Ewing but he's not better than Walt. McHale and Drexler have good cases too I think, after Frazier of course.

Korman12
09-04-2011, 12:47 AM
McHale.

Mishmin
09-04-2011, 12:51 AM
How long must Cousy be slept on. The original point guard right there.

Hustlenomics
09-04-2011, 02:05 AM
-Big East Rookie of the Year award
-2X Big East Defensive Player of the Year
-First team AP All-American, 1996
-97 Rookie Of The Year
-97 Rookie Game MVP
-97 All Rookie First-Team
-7 x All-NBA Selection
-3 x steals champion(01,02,03)
-4 x NBA Scoring Champion(99,01,02,05)
-11 x NBA All-Star
-2 x NBA All-Star Game MVP(01,05)
-2001 NBA MVP
-1983 Career Steals (12th all-time)
-5624 Career Assists(4th Actively)
-24,368 Career Points in just 914 games played (17th all-time)
-One of only 5 players in NBA History to average at least 30 ppg and 8 apg in a season
-Career Average of 2.2 SPG(7th all-time)
-Career Average of 6.2 APG
-Career Average of 26.7 PPG(6th all-time)
-5 Consecutive games of 40+ points as a rookie
-Playoff Steal record
-Became fifth player ever to make an average of 30 points and seven assists in a season


VOTE: ALLEN IVERSON

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 02:26 AM
-Big East Rookie of the Year award
-2X Big East Defensive Player of the Year
-First team AP All-American, 1996
-97 Rookie Of The Year
-97 Rookie Game MVP
-97 All Rookie First-Team
-7 x All-NBA Selection
-3 x steals champion(01,02,03)
-4 x NBA Scoring Champion(99,01,02,05)
-11 x NBA All-Star
-2 x NBA All-Star Game MVP(01,05)
-2001 NBA MVP
-1983 Career Steals (12th all-time)
-5624 Career Assists(4th Actively)
-24,368 Career Points in just 914 games played (17th all-time)
-One of only 5 players in NBA History to average at least 30 ppg and 8 apg in a season
-Career Average of 2.2 SPG(7th all-time)
-Career Average of 6.2 APG
-Career Average of 26.7 PPG(6th all-time)
-5 Consecutive games of 40+ points as a rookie
-Playoff Steal record
-Became fifth player ever to make an average of 30 points and seven assists in a season


VOTE: ALLEN IVERSON

how bout you tell us bout his advanced stats.
or nuggets fiasco, or detroits....

JLynn943
09-04-2011, 02:42 AM
how bout you tell us bout his advanced stats.
or nuggets fiasco, or detroits....

Nuggets fiasco??? Please, do go on.

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 03:04 AM
Nuggets fiasco??? Please, do go on.

last 25 years.
Bird+mchale = ring
magic+worhty= ring
Thomas+Dumars= Ring
jordand +pippen= ring
hakeem + clyde = ring
duncan+robinson= ring
kobe+shaq = ring
shaq+wade= ring
kg+pierce = ring
kobe+pau = ring.
wade + lebron = just one attempt yet.

so whenever TWO top 10.....lets be generous top 15 players have joined they have won a ring.
the exception being Malone+stockton who happened to run into teams that had those kinds of combos with the NUMBER 1 player of the league first magic+ then jordan +

iverson+melo¿ nothing at all( nor did he win anything with cwebb) Then he joined a pistons team that hd been to all the conference finals for year...till he got there.

Chronz
09-04-2011, 03:21 AM
I'm taking Ewing here. Pretty much was the best center in the league thru 1993 and then Hakeem and Robinson took over.
WHAH?

He was the best for a year lets not get carried away.

Willis Reed is my personal fave here, his prime was short lived but he got enough done to best Ewing IMO. Walt seems like the most logical

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 08:57 AM
last 25 years.
Bird+mchale = ring
magic+worhty= ring
Thomas+Dumars= Ring
jordand +pippen= ring
hakeem + clyde = ring
duncan+robinson= ring
kobe+shaq = ring
shaq+wade= ring
kg+pierce = ring
kobe+pau = ring.
wade + lebron = just one attempt yet.

so whenever TWO top 10.....lets be generous top 15 players have joined they have won a ring.
the exception being Malone+stockton who happened to run into teams that had those kinds of combos with the NUMBER 1 player of the league first magic+ then jordan +

iverson+melo¿ nothing at all( nor did he win anything with cwebb) Then he joined a pistons team that hd been to all the conference finals for year...till he got there.

Crooner what degree of garbage is this?

Is this seriously a serious post?

A.I. played one and a half seasons in Denver. Tell us in the last 25 years top 5 team in terms of pace factor and lower 3rd in terms of defense has won an NBA Championship? NONE!

This is the biggest piece of anti A.I. nonsense I've ever read. You dare bring up Chris Webber. The same Chris Webber who at 6'10 could not get up to dunk the basketball on a consistent basis. There was a time when his explosiveness was scene as a huge part of his game. You are making yourself sound like a hater in all honesty.

Let's even talk supporting casts. It takes a TEAM to win a title and that's why the Heat (despite having 3 top 15 players) lost to the Mavs (1 top 30 player). Don't come here preaching utter garbage please.

There is a reason why it's said that defense plays a HUGE role in any championship team. Outside of the showtime Lakers which all of those teams were teams who were known for their play on the defensive end.

You make an excuse for Stockton and Malone.... many would say they are the greatest PG/PF combo in the history of the game and a top 5 combo overall but you say they ran into other greater tandems, well didn't the Nuggets.

I expected no better from you though Crooner nothing better. :pity:

JordansBulls
09-04-2011, 10:37 AM
WHAH?

He was the best for a year lets not get carried away.

Willis Reed is my personal fave here, his prime was short lived but he got enough done to best Ewing IMO. Walt seems like the most logical

He started on the Original Dream Team over Robinson.

ichitownclowni
09-04-2011, 10:55 AM
Ai

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 10:59 AM
Ewing... political vote. Can't see AI before Drexler, Frazier, Cousy, Ewing, Payton, Hayes, McAdoo, Nique, Kidd, Cooper, Worthy, Jerry & Maurice Lucas... I can go on forever with names

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 11:07 AM
Ewing... political vote. Can't see AI before Drexler, Frazier, Cousy, Ewing, Payton, Hayes, McAdoo, Nique, Kidd, Cooper, Worthy, Jerry & Maurice Lucas... I can go on forever with names

i hope you dont mean Michael Cooper, that would be taking in it too far, bunt nice a long list of names definetly.
He simply may be the most overhyped player in history.

From the options we have on the poll right now i would only vote Mcgrady, Kevin Johnson and Shawn Kemp AFTER iverson, the rest are all over.
Then Add the likes of Lovelette, Gus Williams, Nate Archibald, Bobby Jones ( some love for D), Gilmore, Buck Williams, Adrian Dantely, Jamaal WIlkies, Dan Issel, David thompson, Alex English , JOe Dumars, Marc Aguirre,Chris Mullin, Chirs Webber, Sheed Wallace, Billups, Melo,Cp3, , to people i would Vote before Iverson.

And i would be undecided about Injury shortened careers like Hardaway , Grant HIll or Ming, because when healthy they were definetly better than him.....but they are incomplete careers.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 11:25 AM
i hope you dont mean Michael Cooper, that would be taking in it too far, bunt nice a long list of names definetly.
He simply may be the most overhyped player in history.

From the options we have on the poll right now i would only vote Mcgrady, Kevin Johnson and Shawn Kemp AFTER iverson, the rest are all over.
Then Add the likes of Lovelette, Gus Williams, Nate Archibald, Bobby Jones ( some love for D), Gilmore, Buck Williams, Adrian Dantely, Jamaal WIlkies, Dan Issel, David thompson, Alex English , JOe Dumars, Marc Aguirre,Chris Mullin, Chirs Webber, Sheed Wallace, Billups, Melo,Cp3, , to people i would Vote before Iverson.

And i would be undecided about Injury shortened careers like Hardaway , Grant HIll or Ming, because when healthy they were definetly better than him.....but they are incomplete careers.


Ewing... political vote. Can't see AI before Drexler, Frazier, Cousy, Ewing, Payton, Hayes, McAdoo, Nique, Kidd, Cooper, Worthy, Jerry & Maurice Lucas... I can go on forever with names

This is the opinion of two of the most delusional and biased posters on PSD. They by no means represent the opinion of reasonable NBA fans anywhere.

Crooner could possibly say that McGrady is behind Iverson but then Yao is ahead of them both? How could this man be taken seriously? Hardaway, Yao, Sheed, Billups, Miller, Gasol, etc etc over not only Iverson but McGrady. In McGrady's injury shorten career compared to any of those players entire body of work McGrady is way better.

I don't call people haters often but its clear Hellcrooner that you are a hater.

Hawkeye, Chronz etc are players who aren't big on A.I. but I think I can speak on their behalf and say that they aren't haters. At least they are both reasonable.

Anyone who thinks Dirk isn't a top 50 player (barely top 50 after winning a title) and Kobe isn't a top 20 player should NOT be taken seriously in any of their all time player rankings. Meaning you 2.

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 11:28 AM
anyone who needs "help" to vote for Frazier at #30 when he's clearly a top 20-25 player should not be taken seriously either...

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 11:28 AM
^ive never said dirk isnt top 50 or kobe not top 20?

and read again, i wouldnt vote mcgrady over iverson and probably wouldnt vote ming, hill or hardaway over him, because Injuries RUINED their careers.

at their primes? they all were probably better than him but their primes were short or directly never happened.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 11:34 AM
^ive never said dirk isnt top 50 or kobe not top 20?

and read again, i wouldnt vote mcgrady over iverson and probably wouldnt vote ming, hill or hardaway over him, because Injuries RUINED their careers.

at their primes? they all were probably better than him but their primes were short or directly never happened.

You also edited your post so exclude Ming and put him into another category. You intially had him over Iverson as well.

Also you have said on MANY occasions that Dirk is not a top 50 player all time. Only AFTER the Mavs won the title on Dirk's shoulder was when YOU put him into your top 50 slightly ahead of Pau for now.

Did you not see where I said barely top 50 after winning the title?

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 11:35 AM
^ive never said dirk isnt top 50 or kobe not top 20?

and read again, i wouldnt vote mcgrady over iverson and probably wouldnt vote ming, hill or hardaway over him, because Injuries RUINED their careers.

at their primes? they all were probably better than him but their primes were short or directly never happened.

Is this thread about primes or careers? If that's the case we really screwed this one up since a prime is 2 years or so by your reasoning. I think we should have a re-vote in that case. Start from the very beginning.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 11:40 AM
anyone who needs "help" to vote for Frazier at #30 when he's clearly a top 20-25 player should not be taken seriously either...

Needs "help"? Correct me if I am wrong but did you not vote Cousy in the last round? :rolleyes:

Child please. There was one voter for Walt last round and that was the only man who made a stance. I have no problem admitting I was wrong and I would say it every-time. You however you never will. NEVER. Saying ridiculous things like Kobe isn't top 20 when proven wrong again and again.


20. Stockton
21. McHale
22. Isaiah
23. Drexler
24. Kobe

And some guys like Mikan, English, Baylor, Wilkins, Pippen, Hayes, Gervin, Kidd, Dantley, McAdoo, Archibald, Worthy and Reggie Miller should be named before Kobe

Does that list look familiar? Who's is that? Wait that's yours. :speechless:

I thought you said Frazier is clearly top 20-25? Where is his name in there? Tell me where is Frazier's name? :rolleyes:

I am a man I made a mistake and I owned up to it and I admit that I got owned by a man with more knowledge of the game than me. You? Well you're a waste of time.

69centers
09-04-2011, 11:42 AM
Cousy and Gervin are the top 2 players left on this list.

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 11:43 AM
Did you save that post of mine somewhere...? Where the link for it? Where's the rest of the post? ;)

I am man enough to admit that recalling that post I said it was a hasty made list on top of my head... I never said that's the list I was going with.

And yes, I got Kobe in my top 30. I don't value championships over crappy watered down leagues with messed up rules as much as many of you do here ;)

p.s. Me voting for Cousy means I rate him higher than Walt.. .That doesn't mean I agree with Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Pippen, Dirk over either of them as well...

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 11:46 AM
Truth is, INDIVIDUALLY, Kobe is nothing more than a modern version of George Gervin. At least Gervin "invented" a move. Kobe's on another level than him because of marketing,. not because of skill. And while you're rating championships this much, I'm nominating Robert Horry on your behalf.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 11:49 AM
Did you save that post of mine somewhere...? Where the link for it? Where's the rest of the post? ;)

I am man enough to admit that recalling that post I said it was a hasty made list on top of my head... I never said that's the list I was going with.

And yes, I got Kobe in my top 30. I don't value championships over crappy watered down leagues with messed up rules as much as many of you do here ;)

p.s. Me voting for Cousy means I rate him higher than Walt.. .That doesn't mean I agree with Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Pippen, Dirk over either of them as well...

So why are you changing your vote now to Pat is Pat also top 20-25? I would love to see your well thought out 20-25.

I don't have you post saved anywhere unfortunately you ALWAYS contradict yourself in these debates and I'll keep bringing it back to show how you conveniently change your opinion every time the debate arises. You want the entire post? You know the entire post you know what I posted there is your exact words.

You didn't say anything about haste you exact words were.


(not my complete list, but sort of right)

You keep contradicting yourself in every argument. You change your vote... why? Because it's the political choice? Utter rubbish. How could you leave Cousy and Walt out?

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 11:53 AM
The list is ****ed up enough, I'm trying to contribute to it being rectified in a way... and I'm not the only one who's stated he's making "political votes" in these threads. If you accept the PSD all time top 29 players as the true list of top 29 players then it's fine by me. Most people who know the game would disagree with this list starting off with Kobe at #8. And when I say most people, I don't mean ESPN "experts" who are basically clueless and do most things for marketing purposes.

I'll do a top 50 list soon enough and you can judge my ranking then...

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 11:55 AM
Truth is, INDIVIDUALLY, Kobe is nothing more than a modern version of George Gervin. At least Gervin "invented" a move. Kobe's on another level than him because of marketing,. not because of skill. And while you're rating championships this much, I'm nominating Robert Horry on your behalf.

IF I valued championships more than anything else would I be an Allen Iverson fanboy?

I NEVER used titles in ANY of my arguments for or against Kobe. NEVER. Everyone on PSD who knows my posting history KNOWS that I am not one who values titles over individual dominance and accomplishments.

But thanks for so ignorantly nominating Horry on my behalf since I am a Kobe d*** rider who thinks he's going to be better than MJ when he wins two more titles. :rolleyes:

I don't facepalm often but your posts keep getting worst and worst you are really pushing it.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 11:56 AM
The list is ****ed up enough, I'm trying to contribute to it being rectified in a way... and I'm not the only one who's stated he's making "political votes" in these threads. If you accept the PSD all time top 29 players as the true list of top 29 players then it's fine by me. Most people who know the game would disagree with this list starting off with Kobe at #8. And when I say most people, I don't mean ESPN "experts" who are basically clueless and do most things for marketing purposes.

I'll do a top 50 list soon enough and you can judge my ranking then...

Name these most people.

I challenge you to name them, because every forum that I have seen doing these sorts of lists have Kobe in the top 10 and every single updated top 50 ranking has Kobe in the top 12. So I'd love to know who are these most people?

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 11:57 AM
You also edited your post so exclude Ming and put him into another category. You intially had him over Iverson as well.

Also you have said on MANY occasions that Dirk is not a top 50 player all time. Only AFTER the Mavs won the title on Dirk's shoulder was when YOU put him into your top 50 slightly ahead of Pau for now.

Did you not see where I said barely top 50 after winning the title?

Nope.

Before the title i said Dirk was somwhere between 40 and 50

and after the title i think he is somewhere between 30 and 40.

what ive always said and i still say is he is NOT top 20.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 12:03 PM
Nope.

Before the title i said Dirk was somwhere between 40 and 50

and after the title i think he is somewhere between 30 and 40.

what ive always said and i still say is he is NOT top 20.

I can't believe you're going to make me look for this but be prepared to eat your words if I am able to find the post.

Either way how could Pau be > Dirk when he isn't top 50 and Dirk was 40-50. Again the many contradictions between you and Nyalltheway is beyond funny. :laugh:

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 12:09 PM
every forum? You do realize that American sports forum have average age below the age of 20 right? If you're looking for light in the darkness, I can't help you. Go ask guys who've played the game or at least watched it. Or at least do what I did... Get a shitload of older games and watch and learn....

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 12:11 PM
^you can make the case for pau being top 50.
both players careers arent finished tough so they can go up.
i mean if mavs make a three peat you could argue dirk as top 10.
if pau wins 3 more( as a second option) you could make a case for him in top 25
if pau wins one as a leader somwhere ( or wins some finals mvp even in lakers) he can go up to top 25 too.

many things can happen.

heattiltheend94
09-04-2011, 12:28 PM
vote cousy
nominate ray allen

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 12:29 PM
^you can make the case for pau being top 50.
both players careers arent finished tough so they can go up.
i mean if mavs make a three peat you could argue dirk as top 10.
if pau wins 3 more( as a second option) you could make a case for him in top 25
if pau wins one as a leader somwhere ( or wins some finals mvp even in lakers) he can go up to top 25 too.

many things can happen.

thanks now


top 50


Centers and PF clearly better or arguably(non bolded ) better than Dirk:
-Mikan
-Bellamy
-Russell
-Wilt
-Reed
-Thurmond
Ewing
-Gilmore
-Kareem
-Moses Malone
-Mchale
-Hakeem
-Cowens
-K Malone
-Barkley
-Shaquille
-Robinson
-Duncan
-KG
-MIng
-Webber
-Pau

Wings:
Havliceck
Baylor
Barry
O Robertson
J West
Earl Monroe
Dr J
Gervin
A Dantley
J wilkes
A English
D thompson
Jordan
Drexler
Wilkins
Worhty
Pippen
Bird
r miller
j richmond
mullins
van de wehghe
grant hill
kobe bryant
wade
lebron
iverson
ray allen
p pierce
carmelo
Dumars

Point guards.

COusy
Archibald
Magic
D Johnson
Frazier
Isiah
Stockton
Payton
Kidd

there you go 30 definitive LOCKS as better than Dirk.
and then a TON of "debatables" many of wich( ifnot all) are in the HOF

so top 50 and top 10 among PFs is more than enough


i have.

he has moved from my top 70 list to my top 40 and is right now 1 inch ahead of Pau.

nothing that two more pau rings vs 0 more for dirk cant fix tough.

That was your take on Dirk before he won the title


i said he is "arguably better" wich means that you can make a case.

as of today after ring has propeled DIRK a good chunk of players OVER gasol.
But the race has not ended.

mmm players i would put definelty OVER gasol AS OF TODAY.

Mikan.COusy.Pettit. RUssell, Wilt, Bellamy,Petit, O Robertson, Havlicek, West, Baylor, Barry, Thurmond, Reed, Frazier, Kareem, Moses Malone, Bird, Magic, THomas, Worhty, Hakeem, Jordan, Pippen,ewing, Drexler, Dr J, Barkley, Mchale,Karl Malone, Stockton, Bill Walton, shaq, Kidd,Robinson, Duncan, Kg, Dirk(as of today) ,Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Nash,Hayes,Wilkins

Players that can be argued as better or worse than gasol.
Earl Monroe, Gilmore, Dantley, Wilkes, Calvin Murphy, TOmjanovic, Issell, David thomspson, Dumars, Cowens, Parish, Van de whege, Buck Williams, Denis johnson, sikma, K johnson, Chambers, Hal Greer, L wilkens, english, gervin,Payton, Grant Hill, Pierce, Ray allen, Webber, Unseld,Sabonis,Pêtrovic,Bernard King.ç

so thats 44 locks as better than him.
and 30 more as debatbale.
considering im sure forgetting some names liek 10 or something like that.

i would say he is in the 60 to 75 range.

This is your take on Gasol.

It's amazing how he'll make such a huge jump if he wins more titles. Also amazing that Dirk made such a big jump after everyone chastised for your hating on Dirk.

You are not different from NYalltheway. You guys hate on players for no reason other than pure ignorance and then when challenged attempt to dance around your nonsense.

PS in much earlier threads such as the Championship threads you said that Dirk only then made in into your top 50 and only then passed Pau because he won a title as the first option.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 12:36 PM
every forum? You do realize that American sports forum have average age below the age of 20 right? If you're looking for light in the darkness, I can't help you. Go ask guys who've played the game or at least watched it. Or at least do what I did... Get a shitload of older games and watch and learn....

Could you give facts to support this argument because I personally know of forums where there are selected voters all of whom are over the age of 20 and ALL of whom have a much greater understanding of the game than you. Ask JB, Tredigs, Chronz etc, they all know one of the forums in which I'm talking about. They have Kobe at #10 exactly where he belongs.

Also why did you ignore what I said about experts lists. Hell even former players have said on many occasions that Kobe is top 10 all time. MANY MANY occasions. Every single EXPERT list has Kobe in the to 20.

You obviously have Alzheimers or something because as I told you I have watched old games and highlights. On many many occasions. I told you I have every damn near every NBA finals game that my father could have recorded on cassette from 92 onwards (many from before as well but my father was not able to get every game). Surely I have not watched as much as you but I have watched enough that were available (especially late 80s early 90s) to give me a good enough appreciation for the players of that era.

Please tell me who are these many people who would agree with you that Kobe isn't top 20.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 12:40 PM
I'm calling on all the older posters 30 year and older. llemon, Hawkeye, Chronz, Crooner and whoever else are the older guys here on PSD to please say whether or not you agree that Kobe isn't a top 20 player all time because since I'm you I apparently don't have any idea how to evaluate a player's worth.

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 12:41 PM
People who have a better understanding of basketball as it seems... people where basketball = life, not money. People from Serbia, Lithuania, Slovenia etc.. who've been around long enough. People who breath basketball. I'd take their word over your "expert$" any day of the week.
I'd also take an opinion of a corner store cashier in Texas or Arizona over those "expert$"...

Stuckey#3
09-04-2011, 12:43 PM
AI... accomplishments aside he changed the game.

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 12:44 PM
^rings mean that mmuch and make you make big leaps.

thats for sure.

i will put you an example.

Robert Horrrys playing skills were AVERAGE, like th thousend AVERAGE players that have been in the nba.

game wise he probably woudl be a top.....800? player.

Guess what, rings would probably make people include him at top 200 most probably.

Things are like this.

Imagine Lakers trade pau to team X this season, then he WINS the ring as a LEADER , how would you be able to argue say Webber as better than pau if that happened?

How would you not rank 3 rings ( one as leader) over dirks One.?

Now Dirk, he has one now but most people still rank Kg ahead of him.
Say Dirk wins other, that would be 2 rings vs 1 with LESS help, so he woudl NEED to jump over him for sure.

Now say Dirk wins 3 straight, with poor help, you woudl be able to argue him as the best Pf ever ( since Tim had more help and never won even two in a row).
You would be hard pressed not to get him over a ton of players , including the hakeems or Dr Js of the world and make him top 10.

Stoudamire now is way beyond Dirk or Pau, what if he wins a couple rings as NY leader? he should jump over them.

Even more tricky in the Pau goes somwhere else and LEADs a title, 1 as leader 2 as Co, where does that leave him in regards to multiple ring winners as second options like Mchale , Worhty or Pip.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 12:44 PM
People who have a better understanding of basketball as it seems... people where basketball = life, not money. People from Serbia, Lithuania, Slovenia etc.. who've been around long enough. People who breath basketball. I'd take their word over your "expert$" any day of the week.
I'd also take an opinion of a corner store cashier in Texas or Arizona over those "expert$"...

What about former players? since people who have traveled the world are smarter than those that haven't and since people who are not in it for the money but don't know jackshit about the history of the game are also smarter.

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 12:46 PM
I'm calling on all the older posters 30 year and older. llemon, Hawkeye, Chronz, Crooner and whoever else are the older guys here on PSD to please say whether or not you agree that Kobe isn't a top 20 player all time because since I'm you I apparently don't have any idea how to evaluate a player's worth.

Kobe is top 15 for Sure , arguable top 10 ( id put him there behind , Magic, Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Bird, Robertson, Dr J, Hakeem, Duncan) and may end up being top 5.

thats my opinion and BTW its well known that i ABSOLUTELY DESPITE the dude.
Believe it or not i dont allow my personal biases interfere with my ratings.

Stuckey#3
09-04-2011, 12:47 PM
Also when "The Answer" was in his prime I remember personally seeing non-sixer fans nearly get into fistfights arguing his case for MVP. People have shortterm memories when it comes to guys who burn out... but think back to ten years ago and what people were saying. The rest of the guys on this list were never that important to the game.

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 12:48 PM
AI... accomplishments aside he changed the game.

interesting to hear how. no sarcasm here, I really like Iverson :)

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 12:51 PM
What about former players? since people who have traveled the world are smarter than those that haven't and since people who are not in it for the money but don't know jackshit about the history of the game are also smarter.

what former players would those be? Soon-to-be ESPN announcers or soon-to-be coaches? There's always a motive in public speaking in these kind of stuff, don't fool yourself otherwise ;) Find me a pure former player that has nothing to do with coaching or television after his career is done... And not someone like Oscar Robertson who's bitter that Magic and Jordan turned out better than he was :D

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 12:51 PM
Also when "The Answer" was in his prime I remember personally seeing non-sixer fans nearly get into fistfights arguing his case for MVP. People have shortterm memories when it comes to guys who burn out... but think back to ten years ago and what people were saying. The rest of the guys on this list were never that important to the game.

what i was saying ten years ago?
Iverson is a ballhog
iverson is not efficient
iverson inflates his stats.
iverson is overhyped.
iverson is a team cancer
iverson will never be able to win a ring unless he learns to play in a TEAM instead of play for himself.

nothing has changed in my perception on him

He is a better/most talented version of World B Free, nothing more , nothing less.

Stuckey#3
09-04-2011, 12:57 PM
interesting to hear how. no sarcasm here, I really like Iverson :)

Crossover... style... driving to the lane as a 6 foot PG... This article pretty much says it all:

http://dimemag.com/2011/06/the-final-answer-a-tribute-to-the-legacy-of-allen-iverson/

PatsSoxKnicks
09-04-2011, 12:58 PM
Well nice to see I'm not the only person voting for Walt this time (lol at that last poll) but I'm curious what case Ewing has over Walt.

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 12:59 PM
Well nice to see I'm not the only person voting for Walt this time (lol at that last poll) but I'm curious what case Ewing has over Walt.

none Imo

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 12:59 PM
^rings mean that mmuch and make you make big leaps.

thats for sure.

i will put you an example.

Robert Horrrys playing skills were AVERAGE, like th thousend AVERAGE players that have been in the nba.

game wise he probably woudl be a top.....800? player.

Guess what, rings would probably make people include him at top 200 most probably.

Things are like this.

Imagine Lakers trade pau to team X this season, then he WINS the ring as a LEADER , how would you be able to argue say Webber as better than pau if that happened?

How would you not rank 3 rings ( one as leader) over dirks One.?

Now Dirk, he has one now but most people still rank Kg ahead of him.
Say Dirk wins other, that would be 2 rings vs 1 with LESS help, so he woudl NEED to jump over him for sure.

Now say Dirk wins 3 straight, with poor help, you woudl be able to argue him as the best Pf ever ( since Tim had more help and never won even two in a row).
You would be hard pressed not to get him over a ton of players , including the hakeems or Dr Js of the world and make him top 10.

Stoudamire now is way beyond Dirk or Pau, what if he wins a couple rings as NY leader? he should jump over them.

Even more tricky in the Pau goes somwhere else and LEADs a title, 1 as leader 2 as Co, where does that leave him in regards to multiple ring winners as second options like Mchale , Worhty or Pip.


Nope.

Before the title i said Dirk was somwhere between 40 and 50

and after the title i think he is somewhere between 30 and 40.

what ive always said and i still say is he is NOT top 20.

Crooner all I am saying is this


top 50



so top 50 and top 10 among PFs is more than enough


i have.

he has moved from my top 70 list to my top 40 and is right now 1 inch ahead of Pau.

nothing that two more pau rings vs 0 more for dirk cant fix tough.

All I'll do you Crooner is let you argue against yourself because you contradict damn near everytime you post.

You said he was top 70 before his ring MANY times before and now you're saying that you never said that and you always said he was top 50.

I can't debate with a man who is constantly debating with himself.

pd7631
09-04-2011, 01:01 PM
If Allen Iverson was such a team cancer explain this....

"When I coached him, I’ve never been around a player that more people cared about.”-Larry Brown

"When he came to the game, he gave you 110% of what you asked of him. You don't find too many teammates like that. I have played in this league for 18 years, and there's no 2, 3, or 4 guys that I can put in the same category as Allen Iverson"- Dikembe Mutombo

"People paid to see him play, he was fun to watch and he was fun to play with. I think that's what made Allen a lot different from other players."-Aaron McKie

"I've never seen a guy that size, that could just take over a game, and take so many hits. I think if any athlete epitomized Philadelphia, probably in my lifetime, it was Allen."-Billy King

"His courage, his heart and his competitiveness are things that are amazing to me. His loyalty is without exception, and the way he feels about his teammates is something that's been so significant to me. It's not something he just says, he goes out every day and does it."-Larry Brown



No teammate of Allen Iverson's has ever had something bad to say about him. And a hall of fame coach, and genuine hard *** in Larry Brown has been quite possibly his biggest public supporter. The whole AI is a team killer is an absolute media myth.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 01:01 PM
what former players would those be? Soon-to-be ESPN announcers or soon-to-be coaches? There's always a motive in public speaking in these kind of stuff, don't fool yourself otherwise ;) Find me a pure former player that has nothing to do with coaching or television after his career is done... And not someone like Oscar Robertson who's bitter that Magic and Jordan turned out better than he was :D

I'll find you that when you go to a corner store in Texas and get me a vender ok. :rolleyes:

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 01:04 PM
Crooner all I am saying is this







All I'll do you Crooner is let you argue against yourself because you contradict damn near everytime you post.

You said he was top 70 before his ring MANY times before and now you're saying that you never said that and you always said he was top 50.

I can't debate with a man who is constantly debating with himself.

can you re-read the first post you quoted.?

count the names in black , those are the ones that were sure better than him before the ring, then there were a ton of " arguables", i stated that even if arguable not all of them i considered better.
obviously winning the ring makes all those ( or most of them)arguables go to the trahs can , and some of the bolded ones become arguables.

so in short, back then it was 40th at best and 70th as worst, he has upgraded to 30 at best to 40 at worst, wheres the inconsistence?

you dont seem to understand that the gap between players in the top 100 is not that high, and single facts can affect their rating tremendously.

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 01:06 PM
If Allen Iverson was such a team cancer explain this....

"When I coached him, I’ve never been around a player that more people cared about.”-Larry Brown

of course , to be a complete team cancer you need to hang around with the team in PRACTICE :D

ask detroit players or memphis ones.

NYKalltheway
09-04-2011, 01:07 PM
Crossover... style... driving to the lane as a 6 foot PG... This article pretty much says it all:

http://dimemag.com/2011/06/the-final-answer-a-tribute-to-the-legacy-of-allen-iverson/

Isiah Thomas did all that as well, and better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qzt-P7d5yQ

Iverson would have been legendary if he played for the right team back in his prime. Right team would have been Minnesota imo, with Kevin Garnett at the time. They'd change the history of the game if they were together... And this is why I don't rate championships that much. Had AI or anyone else played for a better team, and guys like Kobe for worse teams (we've seen how he fared alone on a crappy team in terms of winning), most people wouldn't be talking about these players in the same way.
Back in 2000, I'd take Iverson over Kobe. In 2003, I'd take T-mac over both of them. Heck, in 2000 you could even argue Vince Carter over Kobe...

As Crooner says, titles change opinions. I'm not one of them. I won't rate Dirk higher if he wins another one. He's been around for over a decade and I know his capabilities. Great player, one of the better 'big' scorers and possibly the best ever 'big' shooter. My opinion won't change if he plays next to Caron Butler, Tyson Chandler against Derrick Rose and Luol Deng and wins in the finals... he's still the same player he is without winning the title.

Many here confuse team efforts with individual efforts. The general media has helped this imo. The most common discussions in the NBA forum are "player x over player y", "player x's stats", "player x breaks a record"... it's a player-driven league. While in Europe the last thing people care about is players. Players come and go, teams stay forever (unlike some US teams that relocate every 30 years or whatever)

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 01:07 PM
can you re-read the first post you quoted.?

count the names in black , those are the ones that were sure better than him before the ring, then there were a ton of " arguables", i stated that even if arguable not all of them i considered better.
obviously winning the ring makes all those ( or most of them)arguables go to the trahs can , and some of the bolded ones become arguables.

so in short, back then it was 40th at best and 70th as worst, he has upgraded to 30 at best to 40 at worst, wheres the inconsistence?

you dont seem to understand that the gap between players in the top 100 is not that high, and single facts can affect their rating tremendously.

Crooner I am not wasting my time. You have said on countless occasions before Dirk won his title that there is no way he's top 50 and that Pau had a better career than he did.

I wasted enough of my time on you but ALL of PSD knows you said Dirk wasn't top 50. STOP trying to change your tune.

You have been inconsistent throughout.

You said he moved from 70 you NEVER said he was at worst 70. Get your rubbish out of here.

tev_dodd
09-04-2011, 02:19 PM
J Kidd again, I'm really surprised how underrated this board has him.

NYMetros
09-04-2011, 03:13 PM
Ewing and Iverson over Cousy... :facepalm:

Chronz
09-04-2011, 07:21 PM
He started on the Original Dream Team over Robinson.

All NBA, MVP ranks, stats?

PatsSoxKnicks
09-04-2011, 07:30 PM
I'm not sure that I ever recall Ewing being better than Robinson. I do think he should be coming up though- probably behind Walt, Clyde and McHale. Reed vs. Ewing is interesting but I'm not sure that Reed's short career is enough.

PS- Chronz, who did you have going at #29? I'm guessing you disagreed with the Isiah selection.

Chronz
09-04-2011, 07:40 PM
Yea but I wasn't about to rehash that old argument. Im voting politically from here on out

PatsSoxKnicks
09-04-2011, 07:48 PM
Yea but I wasn't about to rehash that old argument. Im voting politically from here on out

I think some of the smarter posters who voted for Isiah last poll only voted for him because they didn't/couldn't think of anyone else.

Yeah, perhaps I should do that. It doesn't look like Walt will win this, in which case I'd rather go with Ewing then AI.

Who would you have voted in the last 2 spots if you were going based on best available?

Hustlenomics
09-04-2011, 10:55 PM
I'm not sure that I ever recall Ewing being better than Robinson. I do think he should be coming up though- probably behind Walt, Clyde and McHale. Reed vs. Ewing is interesting but I'm not sure that Reed's short career is enough.

PS- Chronz, who did you have going at #29? I'm guessing you disagreed with the Isiah selection.

people are just voting Ewing so Iverson doesn't win

pd7631
09-04-2011, 11:01 PM
people are just voting Ewing so Iverson doesn't win

It's pretty much the definition of hating. Pretty sad that people can't stand up and just vote for the actual person they want to vote for. The people voting for AI have actually taken the time to reason why he should be picked, yet you have others who show no support for their choice or have admitted that they are just voting for one person so another doesn't get the vote.

For what it's worth, I'd go Ewing after AI....so I have no issue with the people voting for Ewing because they believe he is the next best player. Although, I believe that what AI has accomplished and the way he affected the game makes him the pick here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK07TjHOy-k
^^
NBA players talking about how AI was the toughest player to guard in the league.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 11:11 PM
It's pretty much the definition of hating. Pretty sad that people can't stand up and just vote for the actual person they want to vote for. The people voting for AI have actually taken the time to reason why he should be picked, yet you have others who show no support for their choice or have admitted that they are just voting for one person so another doesn't get the vote.

For what it's worth, I'd go Ewing after AI....so I have no issue with the people voting for Ewing because they believe he is the next best player. Although, I believe that what AI has accomplished and the way he affected the game makes him the pick here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK07TjHOy-k
^^
NBA players talking about how AI was the toughest player to guard in the league.

Like I said earlier at least you guys are supporting arguments for A.I. and actually adding to the debate. You make solid points give reasoning for your choice. Others are just voting and leaving and those that aren't are voting so that Allen Iverson doesn't go before another player. You have not backed down and have kept stating your case despite some posters' utter ignorance.

I do not agree that A.I. should go just yet but your arguments are compelling and I must applaud you guy for making them.

naps
09-04-2011, 11:25 PM
Ewing... political vote. Can't see AI before Drexler, Frazier, Cousy, Ewing, Payton, Hayes, McAdoo, Nique, Kidd, Cooper, Worthy, Jerry & Maurice Lucas... I can go on forever with names

You make no sense at all. Seriously wtf do you have against recent players?

PatsSoxKnicks
09-04-2011, 11:36 PM
My reasoning is pretty clear: Statistically, Iverson doesn't compare to a lot of guys left. And his lack of hardware doesn't help his case vs. others like Walt, McHale or Clyde who have it.

The reason I would wait to vote is because there are at least 5-6 guys (probably more) left that deserve to go ahead of AI so I have no interest in seeing a guy go way higher then he deserves. Although, this has already happened quite a few times in this voting (Stockton, Mikan, Isiah to name a few).

If you really want the gory details on the numbers, go to the NBA Stats forum where I have the thread "using advanced stats to judge all-time greats" and read through the whole thread and Iverson is close to the bottom. Admittedly, I have not done this out for PER yet, where he would come out more favorably. Still though, statistically, he lacks.

Outside of his stats, what intangible aspects does he bring to overtake Walt Frazier, Clyde or McHale, who by the way, all have championships (one of them leading the Knicks to 2 titles)? None that I can think of. So for those reasons, he doesn't deserve to go for at least a few spots.

KingPosey
09-04-2011, 11:47 PM
mitch richmond.

pd7631
09-04-2011, 11:48 PM
My reasoning is pretty clear: Statistically, Iverson doesn't compare to a lot of guys left. And his lack of hardware doesn't help his case vs. others like Walt, McHale or Clyde who have it.

The reason I would wait to vote is because there are at least 5-6 guys (probably more) left that deserve to go ahead of AI so I have no interest in seeing a guy go way higher then he deserves. Although, this has already happened quite a few times in this voting (Stockton, Mikan, Isiah to name a few).


Statistically he doesn't compare? What statistics are we supposed to be looking at here? You mean the 6 foot nothing guy doesn't grab as many rebounds as guys who are half a foot taller than him? Or he doesn't shoot as high a percentage as guys that have to jump 4 inches to touch the rim and he has to jump 2 and a half feet?

Quite frankly, it's those guys that don't compare statistically to AI.

-6th All Time in scoring average

-2nd All Time in playoff scoring average

-his 33ppg in the 2001 playoffs is something that only MJ and Hakeem were able to do in playing as many games

-League MVP....shortest player ever to win it

-4 Time Scoring Champ.....shortest player ever to win it

-7th All Time in steals per game

-6th most 50pt games in NBA History

-and many more that have been said on numerous occasions by myself, and others who have actually taken the time to defend AI as their choice



Also, of the players mentioned in your post.....Drexler was the only one who had a higher PER than AI.

Hellcrooner
09-04-2011, 11:50 PM
^fg % ? eff? usage rate?


oh i see you dont want to talk bout that.

naps
09-04-2011, 11:51 PM
If Allen Iverson was such a team cancer explain this....

"When I coached him, I’ve never been around a player that more people cared about.”-Larry Brown

"When he came to the game, he gave you 110% of what you asked of him. You don't find too many teammates like that. I have played in this league for 18 years, and there's no 2, 3, or 4 guys that I can put in the same category as Allen Iverson"- Dikembe Mutombo

"People paid to see him play, he was fun to watch and he was fun to play with. I think that's what made Allen a lot different from other players."-Aaron McKie

"I've never seen a guy that size, that could just take over a game, and take so many hits. I think if any athlete epitomized Philadelphia, probably in my lifetime, it was Allen."-Billy King

"His courage, his heart and his competitiveness are things that are amazing to me. His loyalty is without exception, and the way he feels about his teammates is something that's been so significant to me. It's not something he just says, he goes out every day and does it."-Larry Brown



No teammate of Allen Iverson's has ever had something bad to say about him. And a hall of fame coach, and genuine hard *** in Larry Brown has been quite possibly his biggest public supporter. The whole AI is a team killer is an absolute media myth.

Always felt Iverson was underrated. Sad.

PatsSoxKnicks
09-04-2011, 11:55 PM
Statistically he doesn't compare? What statistics are we supposed to be looking at here? You mean the 6 foot nothing guy doesn't grab as many rebounds as guys who are half a foot taller than him? Or he doesn't shoot as high a percentage as guys that have to jump 4 inches to touch the rim and he has to jump 2 and a half feet?

Quite frankly, it's those guys that don't compare statistically to AI.

-6th All Time in scoring average

-2nd All Time in playoff scoring average

-his 33ppg in the 2001 playoffs is something that only MJ and Hakeem were able to do in playing as many games

-League MVP....shortest player ever to win it

-4 Time Scoring Champ.....shortest player ever to win it

-7th All Time in steals per game

-and many more that have been said on numerous occasions by myself, and others who have actually taken the time to defend AI as their choice

So basically, you're saying that because he's short, he should go here. Otherwise, I don't see what him being 6 feet and having to jump higher has to do with anything. This isn't a greatest short players ranking of all-time, it's simply greatest players. How about looking at some advanced #'s?

If you want to know what stats I'm looking at, look at the advanced ones on bball-ref or go here (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634461), where I tried to capture peak/longevity.




Also, of the players mentioned in your post.....Drexler was the only one who had a higher PER than AI.

Fair point. I have not done it out for PER. I still prefer the Win Share #'s though. But he certainly maintained a good scoring rate at a league leading USG rate every year.

For what its worth though, I voted Frazier and didn't vote for anyone else to spite AI.

Edit: I do need to do my ratings out for PER because it does sort of serve as a balancing check to the win share #'s in the whole usage vs. efficiency trade off.

pd7631
09-05-2011, 12:02 AM
So basically, you're saying that because he's short, he should go here. Otherwise, I don't see what him being 6 feet and having to jump higher has to do with anything. This isn't a greatest short players ranking of all-time, it's simply greatest players. How about looking at some advanced #'s?

If you want to know what stats I'm looking at, look at the advanced ones on bball-ref or go here (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634461), where I tried to capture peak/longevity.


Him being short makes his feats more impressive, it's about the total package. You can't measure greatness completely by just looking at numbers on a screen, you have to see what the person gave to the game and how they played. You also can't expect a player his size to perform as well in areas that are simply not going to be accomplished by someone his size, that's why his height is an important factor. The physical abuse that AI took night and night out, and still just kept coming at you speaks volumes of the competitor that he was. Just keep that in mind when you're trying to use #'s that can't account for what's inside a man.

pd7631
09-05-2011, 12:04 AM
Fair point. I have not done it out for PER. I still prefer the Win Share #'s though. But he certainly maintained a good scoring rate at a league leading USG rate every year.

For what its worth though, I voted Frazier and didn't vote for anyone else to spite AI.


I have zero issue with this. I disagree with your choice, but at least you have the guts to vote for the person you believe is the next best player instead of being a coward and voting for someone you don't believe in just to see someone else lose out.

Hellcrooner
09-05-2011, 12:08 AM
Him being short makes his feats more impressive, it's about the total package. You can't measure greatness completely by just looking at numbers on a screen, you have to see what the person gave to the game and how they played. You also can't expect a player his size to perform as well in areas that are simply not going to be accomplished by someone his size, that's why his height is an important factor. The physical abuse that AI took night and night out, and still just kept coming at you speaks volumes of the competitor that he was. Just keep that in mind when you're trying to use #'s that can't account for what's inside a man.

Then lets vote Mugsy Bogues for GOAT:


THAT is actually a size disadvantage. as in he is even short for life outside the courts.

PatsSoxKnicks
09-05-2011, 12:09 AM
Him being short makes his feats more impressive, it's about the total package. You can't measure greatness completely by just looking at numbers on a screen, you have to see what the person gave to the game and how they played. You also can't expect a player his size to perform as well in areas that are simply not going to be accomplished by someone his size, that's why his height is an important factor. The physical abuse that AI took night and night out, and still just kept coming at you speaks volumes of the competitor that he was. Just keep that in mind when you're trying to use #'s that can't account for what's inside a man.

But how are his intangibles necessarily better than a guy like Walt, Clyde or McHale? All of those guys were a part of championship teams too. In the case of Walt, he was the leader of 2 championships (or co-leader). I think each one of those guys had heart. And when it comes to AI, I think the fact that he was so selfish at the end of his career (refusing to come off the bench) is something that hurts his "intangible factor".

PatsSoxKnicks
09-05-2011, 12:12 AM
Then lets vote Mugsy Bogues for GOAT:


THAT is actually a size disadvantage. as in he is even short for life outside the courts.

Thats true. You could argue what Mugsy did was more impressive than AI. There have been many 6 feet players in the NBA. How many 5 foot 3 guys do you know that were able to average double figures?

So in the race for greatest short player of all-time, AI still isn't #1....

pd7631
09-05-2011, 12:19 AM
Thats true. You could argue what Mugsy did was more impressive than AI. There have been many 6 feet players in the NBA. How many 5 foot 3 guys do you know that were able to average double figures?

So in the race for greatest short player of all-time, AI still isn't #1....


Muggsy was a very impressive player, and we will NEVER see a player like him, but this is not at all in the spirit of the argument....and you know it. If what Muggsy did was more impressive than AI, and what AI did was more impressive than others taller than him, then Muggsy Bogues is more impressive than anyone....which in many ways he was, but not for the reasons we are discussing.

pd7631
09-05-2011, 12:23 AM
But how are his intangibles necessarily better than a guy like Walt, Clyde or McHale? All of those guys were a part of championship teams too. In the case of Walt, he was the leader of 2 championships (or co-leader). I think each one of those guys had heart. And when it comes to AI, I think the fact that he was so selfish at the end of his career (refusing to come off the bench) is something that hurts his "intangible factor".


Because you don't hear things such as this being said about them:

"Just watching you over the last 13 years and the way you threw your body around, playing hurt, averaging 41 minutes a game for your career… You proved to me and anyone who watched you that Allen Iverson is the toughest player pound for pound in the history of the game."-Eddie Johnson

Hellcrooner
09-05-2011, 12:25 AM
^there wasnt espn and a hughe media around nba in the 60s and 70s.

for gods sake magic johnsons first finals were broadcasted in tape delay.


of course you wont have such info and declarations when it happened 40 years ago and the former players talking, many of them are death.

and of course no shoe ads to add to the hype of classic players.
no meida portraying 24/7

KingPosey
09-05-2011, 12:31 AM
Statistically he doesn't compare? What statistics are we supposed to be looking at here? You mean the 6 foot nothing guy doesn't grab as many rebounds as guys who are half a foot taller than him? Or he doesn't shoot as high a percentage as guys that have to jump 4 inches to touch the rim and he has to jump 2 and a half feet?

Quite frankly, it's those guys that don't compare statistically to AI.

-6th All Time in scoring average

-2nd All Time in playoff scoring average

-his 33ppg in the 2001 playoffs is something that only MJ and Hakeem were able to do in playing as many games

-League MVP....shortest player ever to win it

-4 Time Scoring Champ.....shortest player ever to win it

-7th All Time in steals per game

-6th most 50pt games in NBA History

-and many more that have been said on numerous occasions by myself, and others who have actually taken the time to defend AI as their choice



Also, of the players mentioned in your post.....Drexler was the only one who had a higher PER than AI.


"The shortest to ever..." stuff is a pretty arbitrary statement, it almost means nothing. And when he won his first scoring title, it was the lowest PPG avg, and worst shooting % ever for a scoring champ. He was a ballhog. a talented, unique, ballhog.

Swashcuff
09-05-2011, 12:56 AM
"The shortest to ever..." stuff is a pretty arbitrary statement, it almost means nothing. And when he won his first scoring title, it was the lowest PPG avg, and worst shooting % ever for a scoring champ. He was a ballhog. a talented, unique, ballhog.

Excuse? Would you like to rephrase that because Max Zaslofsky, Joe Fulks, Neil Johnston, Bob Pettit and Paul Arizin all have something to say about that. Both Fulks and Zaslofsky had lower FG%s and less PPG when they won their respective scoring titles, while Arizin, Pettit and Johnston all scored less ppg.

This past season by Kevin Durant was the second lowest PPG Avg in the last 30+ years for a scoring champ (2nd only to A.I's first) should we hold that against KD? It's not as if the league doesn't have or in A.I.'s instance didn't have great scores. Players just didn't produce at the level in which they were accustomed to.

pd7631
09-05-2011, 01:06 AM
Excuse? Would you like to rephrase that because Max Zaslofsky, Joe Fulks, Neil Johnston, Bob Pettit and Paul Arizin all have something to say about that. Both Folks and Zaslofsky had lower FG%s and less PPG when they won their respective scoring titles, while Arizin, Pettit and Johnston all scored less ppg.

This past season by Kevin Durant was the second lowest PPG Avg in the last 30+ years for a scoring champ (2nd only to A.I's first) should we hold that against KD? It's not as if the league doesn't have or in A.I.'s instance didn't have great scores. Players just didn't produce at the level in which they were accustomed to.


People just make up stuff about the guy, it's sad.

Hellcrooner
09-05-2011, 01:16 AM
lol at throwin around many players from before the shot clock era.

NYKalltheway
09-05-2011, 08:22 AM
You make no sense at all. Seriously wtf do you have against recent players?

do you even saw those guys play?

Iverson was a very good player, but not as good as they were. Simple as that.

Swashcuff
09-05-2011, 09:10 AM
lol at throwin around many players from before the shot clock era.

You can lol all you want.... all I did was correct someone else wrong point. The only person throwing around anything is that poster making up things about Allen Iverson that were wrong.

PS when both Pettit and Arizin won 2 of their scoring titles with a lower PPG AVG AFTER the shot clock era.

NYKalltheway
09-05-2011, 11:03 AM
IGN Sports: Kobe had his big night with 81 points. What do you attribute the rise in individual scoring to?

Clyde Drexler: It's due to the lack of contact on the perimeter, which has helped speed up the game. Without the hand check rule, players are more likely to work their way open. On any given night, if you're hot, the basket is as big as this room. The key is, you're getting a lot of guys who are getting a crazy amount of shot attempts. If you're hot, you're getting 35 shot attempts. Theoretically, if you're taking that many shots, you should be getting at least 50 points, and that's not including free throws. If that had happened during our era, oh my goodness! It's much easier to get 40-50 points now. In my day, defenders played you with two hands and an elbow. You're not getting by a guy, especially if he has an elbow and a hand on you, and is a strong defensive player. Take that away, oh my goodness, it's open season. You can't touch the perimeter players, and the guy with the ball has such a huge advantage because of the first step. He knows where he is going on that first step and the defensive player can't do anything about it. You better hope that you have a seven-footer behind you to protect the basket or it's over.

IGN Sports: Could you have dropped 80 without the hand checks?

Clyde Drexler: If I really wanted to, who knows. Sky is the limit. Depends on how many shot attempts I could muster. When we played, and I don't want to take anything away from Kobe's 81 points, I think it's phenomenal, but the emphasis in our day was always about preservation. If you could put a team away and save yourself those extra minutes, you could be fresh for the next game. If I had a great game and I was hot, usually we were up by 20-30 going into the fourth quarter. That means I don't get to play in the fourth quarter. One year, I think there were 25 games where I didn't play in the fourth period. A lot of those games I had 35-40 at the end of three. With hand checking and not shooting a lot. Basically, if you want to shoot the ball a lot and go for records, that would've been a prime opportunity, but we didn't have that mentality. I think the game has changed.

http://sports.ign.com/articles/693/693785p1.html
this was back in 2006 btw

Hustlenomics
09-05-2011, 12:51 PM
what stat measures how much heart a player has?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK07TjHOy-k
^^
NBA players talking about how AI was the toughest player to guard in the league.

that video says it all

Chronz
09-05-2011, 01:02 PM
Oh god, do now AI gets extra credit for struggling to produce efficiently due to his height. Newsflash people, how impressed you are doesn't matter one iota, you judge players by results. AI being so short is precisely why I wouldn't take him over guys who could defend his own position.

Ewing is the AI of big men in that he had alot of heart but chucked far too often. Difference being hes 7ft and could anchor my defense. So why would I take the less effective player simply because hes more impressive?

AI doesn't deserve to be voted for another 4 or 5 slots and I've yet to see even a decent argument for him, just the same fanboys pasting the same arbitrary numbers.

Chronz
09-05-2011, 01:06 PM
people are just voting Ewing so Iverson doesn't win
So? Id rather have one of several guys I prefer to AI to win.

Chronz
09-05-2011, 01:08 PM
what stat measures how much heart a player has?


that video says it all
That's because its subjective, stats have no bias. Im assuming your vid only talks about AI, prove he has more heart than actual champs or Ewing.

Hustlenomics
09-05-2011, 01:36 PM
That's because its subjective, stats have no bias. Im assuming your vid only talks about AI, prove he has more heart than actual champs or Ewing.

I know Iverson wouldn't miss an open finger roll in a crucial game..

Swashcuff
09-05-2011, 01:51 PM
Oh god, do now AI gets extra credit for struggling to produce efficiently due to his height. Newsflash people, how impressed you are doesn't matter one iota, you judge players by results. AI being so short is precisely why I wouldn't take him over guys who could defend his own position.

Ewing is the AI of big men in that he had alot of heart but chucked far too often. Difference being hes 7ft and could anchor my defense. So why would I take the less effective player simply because hes more impressive?

AI doesn't deserve to be voted for another 4 or 5 slots and I've yet to see even a decent argument for him, just the same fanboys pasting the same arbitrary numbers.


My reasoning is pretty clear: Statistically, Iverson doesn't compare to a lot of guys left. And his lack of hardware doesn't help his case vs. others like Walt, McHale or Clyde who have it.

The reason I would wait to vote is because there are at least 5-6 guys (probably more) left that deserve to go ahead of AI so I have no interest in seeing a guy go way higher then he deserves. Although, this has already happened quite a few times in this voting (Stockton, Mikan, Isiah to name a few).

If you really want the gory details on the numbers, go to the NBA Stats forum where I have the thread "using advanced stats to judge all-time greats" and read through the whole thread and Iverson is close to the bottom. Admittedly, I have not done this out for PER yet, where he would come out more favorably. Still though, statistically, he lacks.

Outside of his stats, what intangible aspects does he bring to overtake Walt Frazier, Clyde or McHale, who by the way, all have championships (one of them leading the Knicks to 2 titles)? None that I can think of. So for those reasons, he doesn't deserve to go for at least a few spots.

This right here is why I would take the opinion of these two posters (along with Hawkeye15) over the likes of Crooner and NYalltheway any day. I've said from the very beginning of this thread that I have A.I. somewhere between 30-40.

Swashcuff
09-05-2011, 01:53 PM
I've yet to see even a decent argument for him, just the same fanboys pasting the same arbitrary numbers.

Tell me who else have you seen a decent argument for? Walt? That's about it. In terms of the arguments the A.I. fanboys have brought forth more than any else has brought for their player/s the last few rounds. Others have done the very same pasting of "arbitrary" numbers I don't see them being chastised for it.

TheNumber37
09-05-2011, 01:58 PM
I think it's funny that Iverson gets popular one round and the next round, another player jumps up that didn't even get the kind of votes he got in the last round. It's like people are looking for a reason NOT to have Iverson high on the list. Well, this is where he belongs all time in the 30-35 range, let's see if he's allowed in.

NYKalltheway
09-05-2011, 02:05 PM
This right here is why I would take the opinion of these two posters (along with Hawkeye15) over the likes of Crooner and NYalltheway any day. I've said from the very beginning of this thread that I have A.I. somewhere between 30-40.

so because we say exactly the same thing, and we do it in 3 lines while they do it in 3 paragraphs, it makes their (same) opinion more worthy?

SMH!
09-05-2011, 02:28 PM
last 25 years.
Bird+mchale = ring
magic+worhty= ring
Thomas+Dumars= Ring
jordand +pippen= ring
hakeem + clyde = ring
duncan+robinson= ring
kobe+shaq = ring
shaq+wade= ring
kg+pierce = ring
kobe+pau = ring.
wade + lebron = just one attempt yet.

so whenever TWO top 10.....lets be generous top 15 players have joined they have won a ring.
the exception being Malone+stockton who happened to run into teams that had those kinds of combos with the NUMBER 1 player of the league first magic+ then jordan +

iverson+melo¿ nothing at all( nor did he win anything with cwebb) Then he joined a pistons team that hd been to all the conference finals for year...till he got there.
That nuggets team was only 1 year.. Just like this wade and lebron team, and plus the nuggets team was facing so many injuries, they didnt have Chris Anderson and Nene was out the whole year with testicular cancer.. And plus lakers didnt win with Malone and Payton, so does that make it a fiasco over there? Or how about Malone and Stockton, or Nash and Amare? Does that make it a fiasco over there, if so why doesnt any ANAYLST ever talk about it? And that Pistons team was just not on the same page, a lot could be blamed on Michael Curry, he couldnt get his mind straight on who was starting, he was voted the worst coach of the year..

Hellcrooner
09-05-2011, 02:53 PM
^ yes 04 is the biggest fiasco in lakers history.

Stuckey#3
09-05-2011, 02:54 PM
of course , to be a complete team cancer you need to hang around with the team in PRACTICE :D

ask detroit players or memphis ones.

I am a lifelong Pistons fan... when Detroit won its first NBA title it was one of the happiest moments of my childhood. I understand the importance of practice...
A lot of Detroit fans are pissed about AI's tenure with the Piston's but I think some of his behavior was just. He was lied to and told that he would be the teams starting SG; as a top 15-20 type talent at that point in his career you can understand why he would be pissed and refuse to come off the bench. AI had to fight throughout every aspect of his career to get respect.
Some of the games AI had in his prime destroy anything the rest of the guys left on this board accomplished. Their have always been people that talked **** about AI; but I really think that just because the guy is down right now people are underappreciating what he contributed to the game. The media and league have a lot of influence over fans perception of athletes.

Hellcrooner
09-05-2011, 02:57 PM
btw i suggest mods take a look into the poll.

there are no less than 5 "recruits" voting for iverson, three of them under 30 posts, one of them with just 5 posts.

Just saying.

Hellcrooner
09-05-2011, 02:59 PM
I am a lifelong Pistons fan... when Detroit won its first NBA title it was one of the happiest moments of my childhood. I understand the importance of practice...
A lot of Detroit fans are pissed about AI's tenure with the Piston's but I think some of his behavior was just. He was lied to and told that he would be the teams starting SG; as a top 15-20 type talent at that point in his career you can understand why he would be pissed and refuse to come off the bench. AI had to fight throughout every aspect of his career to get respect.
Some of the games AI had in his prime destroy anything the rest of the guys left on this board accomplished. Their have always been people that talked **** about AI; but I really think that just because the guy is down right now people are underappreciating what he contributed to the game. The media and league have a lot of influence over fans perception of athletes.


yes , and thats part of the problem, Media and league OVERHYPED him like hell, and then since he didnt live up to what they had tried to sell they have turned their backs against him.

Half of the people voting for him is still living on the Hype.

I, personally never fell for the media hype and saw in him waht was to be seen, a better version of World be free.

Hustlenomics
09-05-2011, 03:14 PM
btw i suggest mods take a look into the poll.

there are no less than 5 "recruits" voting for iverson, three of them under 30 posts, one of them with just 5 posts.

Just saying.

you are sad

Hellcrooner
09-05-2011, 03:22 PM
you are sad what is sad is creating dupes to vote in a poll. ( not acussing you) wich has happened before in this "all time rankings" when lebron was still available.

Raps08-09 Champ
09-05-2011, 03:28 PM
Patrick Ewing so Iverson doesn't win.

Hustlenomics
09-05-2011, 03:55 PM
what is sad is creating dupes to vote in a poll. ( not acussing you) wich has happened before in this "all time rankings" when lebron was still available.

nobody is creating accounts just for this poll


Patrick Ewing so Iverson doesn't win.

pathetic

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 04:25 PM
Patrick Ewing so Iverson doesn't win.

This is kinda sad man. Don't vote for a guy just so that someone else doesn't win. If you believe Ewing to be better than Iverson that is one thing, but don't make comments like this.

Cano4prez
09-05-2011, 04:34 PM
I was the 3rd person to vote for Ewing but honestly their's a handful of people who should be above Iverson still on the poll

Swashcuff
09-05-2011, 04:53 PM
so because we say exactly the same thing, and we do it in 3 lines while they do it in 3 paragraphs, it makes their (same) opinion more worthy?

Crooner said he isn't top 100 and you well you don't think highly of any player who peaked post 2000 with the exception of Shaq, TD and KG should even be top 20. You are delusional, Crooner is a hater. Those other posters actually have great reasoning behind their choices you guys really have none other than clear dislike/bias.

NYKalltheway
09-05-2011, 04:58 PM
Crooner said he isn't top 100 and you well you don't think highly of any player who peaked post 2000 with the exception of Shaq, TD and KG should even be top 20. You are delusional, Crooner is a hater. Those other posters actually have great reasoning behind their choices you guys really have none other than clear dislike/bias.


So wait... I'm delusional for being hesitant to accept someone who became King in the handchecking era? When did I say anything bad about Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson, those three guys you mentioned, Grant Hill, Jason Kidd, Jermain O'Neal, Ron Artest, Dirk Nowitzki, Chauncey Billups and even Kobe Bryant who I'm supposed to be hating (all I said is that he's not as GREAT as you make him be... I never said he's not great and I kept saying he's the best player in the last 5 years and possibly of the decade)

If one person is delusional here, it's you. Unless the GOLDEN ERA OF THE NBA is 2006-2011+ and you're the only one who knows it so far :rolleyes:

Swashcuff
09-05-2011, 05:18 PM
So wait... I'm delusional for being hesitant to accept someone who became King in the handchecking era? When did I say anything bad about Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson, those three guys you mentioned, Grant Hill, Jason Kidd, Jermain O'Neal, Ron Artest, Dirk Nowitzki, Chauncey Billups and even Kobe Bryant who I'm supposed to be hating (all I said is that he's not as GREAT as you make him be... I never said he's not great and I kept saying he's the best player in the last 5 years and possibly of the decade)

If one person is delusional here, it's you. Unless the GOLDEN ERA OF THE NBA is 2006-2011+ and you're the only one who knows it so far :rolleyes:

You know what's the funniest thing. You say things like I am delusional and I am a hater because I have Kobe ahead of Cousy, Drexler, Gervin etc. Then every single knowledgeable basketball mind must then also be delusional haters right? :rolleyes: You should be the last one to call anyone delusional.

When did you say anything bad about Allen Iverson?


Ewing... political vote. Can't see AI before Drexler, Frazier, Cousy, Ewing, Payton, Hayes, McAdoo, Nique, Kidd, Cooper, Worthy, Jerry & Maurice Lucas... I can go on forever with names

and you see nothing wrong with saying A.I. shouldn't be ahead of guys like Cooper, Worth, Jerry AND Maurice Lucas and on top of that you say you can go on forever with names?

That's disrespectful.

You think the opinion of a random store owner who knows nothing about basketball is better than that of experts because they'd lose their $$$ if they were brave enough to speak their mind and say that Kobe is not top 20 as I said I don't facepalm often but -----> :facepalm:

PSD needs a conspiracy theorists forum.

If you view the opinion of someone who doesn't know the game over guys who do of all ages whether its be their job or not then IMO that's the epitome of a delusional person who doesn't want to come to grips with reality.

Hear what ask ANY of the most knowledgeable 30 and older posters on PSD if Kobe is a top 20 player and tell me if any of them say no he isn't he's more like top 30.

NYKalltheway
09-05-2011, 05:36 PM
So I'm a disrespecting Patrick Ewing when I say I'd pick:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
Moses Malone
Shaquille O'Neal
David Robinson
George Mikan
and could put even guys like Robert Parish, Bill Walton, Dwight Howard...

over him?

Is that disrespect? Some people would call this "realism". I guess being realistic = being disrespectful where you come from.

*note that this is just a pure example, don't save it on your hard disk for further use saying it's my opinion on Ewing.

69centers
09-05-2011, 06:39 PM
In no way shape or form is Allen Iverson better than Bob Cousy or George Gervin.

Swashcuff
09-05-2011, 07:38 PM
So I'm a disrespecting Patrick Ewing when I say I'd pick:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
Moses Malone
Shaquille O'Neal
David Robinson
George Mikan
and could put even guys like Robert Parish, Bill Walton, Dwight Howard...

over him?

Is that disrespect? Some people would call this "realism". I guess being realistic = being disrespectful where you come from.

*note that this is just a pure example, don't save it on your hard disk for further use saying it's my opinion on Ewing.

There is a HUGE difference between Cooper, Worthy, Jerry & Maurice Lucas and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Shaquille O'Neal, David Robinson, George Mikan and a few choice others.

Had you said something like "Yao Ming, Marcus Camby, Mutumbo, Jack Sikma, Ed Macauley and the list could go on forever" then it would be clear ignorance and disrespect.

It's amazing that you can't see how contradictory you are being.

You said Ewing isn't better than players that have already gone as justification when earlier you said a bunch of rubbish like A.I. isn't better than players who don't even have a case for top 100 much less top 40. You are a real piece of work dude.

NYKalltheway
09-05-2011, 07:45 PM
Jerry Lucas doesn't have a case for top 100?
Michael Cooper doesn't have a case for top 100?
James Worthy doesn't have a case for top 100?
Maurice Lucas doesn't have a case for top 100?
Do you even know who they are?

Time for a new siggie if you reply and say they don't...

Swashcuff
09-05-2011, 07:55 PM
Jerry Lucas doesn't have a case for top 100?
Michael Cooper doesn't have a case for top 100?
James Worthy doesn't have a case for top 100?
Maurice Lucas doesn't have a case for top 100?
Do you even know who they are?

Time for a new siggie if you reply and say they don't...

You always attempt to ridicule someone for being younger than you when many of us who are younger are so wise beyond our years (more years than you have spent on this earth).

As for your question the players I was alluding to were Maurice Lucas, Michael Cooper AND MORE than anything else the part where you said "I can go on forever with names".

While this may be a figure of speech this "going on forever" of players who aren't better than Cooper and Maurice Lucas obviously leads one to an understanding that they are players that DO NOT have a case for top 100.

j11430
09-05-2011, 08:19 PM
I honestly can't believe Ewing hasn't been voted for yet, I'd put him ahead of a number of the guys already on the list.

Hellcrooner
09-05-2011, 09:21 PM
Jerry Lucas doesn't have a case for top 100?
Michael Cooper doesn't have a case for top 100?No
James Worthy doesn't have a case for top 100?
Maurice Lucas doesn't have a case for top 100?
Do you even know who they are?

Time for a new siggie if you reply and say they don't...

fixed

Knicks21
09-05-2011, 09:22 PM
Come on give Ewing same damn love! Iverson was good but for the highlight reel, did not play defence which is what all you in PSD believe in. Short Term Memories kicking in.

Swashcuff
09-05-2011, 09:56 PM
Come on give Ewing same damn love! Iverson was good but for the highlight reel, did not play defence which is what all you in PSD believe in. Short Term Memories kicking in.

Allen Iverson did play defense. You don't become one of the best ball thieves if you didn't play defense. Allen Iverson was a bad defender there is a difference.

You don't lead all SGs for the half a decade (00-05) in DWS (not a good metric to ascertain an individual's defensive worth when used by itself but generally someone who doesn't play D would never rank so high in this regard) if you don't play any defense.

Hellcrooner
09-05-2011, 10:06 PM
a question here is Why should any player that has NOT BEEN able to ever lead a team to a RING be ranked ABOVE players that have INDEED made it, and made it more than once in some cases.
This goes for both Ewing and Iverson, or other players already receiving votes like Payton, Nash, Gervin or Tmac.

They should definelty be BEHIND those players that lead teams to rings:
Cousy, Frazier, Hayes or Unseld ( the one you consider the leader on the bullets ring team), Cowens, Walton, Schayes.

Then what about those who were able to win it MULTIPLE times as SECOND options and that even won some Finals mvps ? the Worhtys and Mchales of the world.

Swashcuff
09-05-2011, 10:26 PM
a question here is Why should any player that has NOT BEEN able to ever lead a team to a RING be ranked ABOVE players that have INDEED made it, and made it more than once in some cases.
This goes for both Ewing and Iverson, or other players already receiving votes like Payton, Nash, Gervin or Tmac.

They should definelty be BEHIND those players that lead teams to rings:
Cousy, Frazier, Hayes or Unseld ( the one you consider the leader on the bullets ring team), Cowens, Walton, Schayes.

Then what about those who were able to win it MULTIPLE times as SECOND options and that even won some Finals mvps ? the Worhtys and Mchales of the world.

Is Dolph Schayes better than Charles Barkley?
Is Wes Unseld better than David Robinson (did not lead his championship teams)?
Is Chauncey Billups better than John Stockton?

Know what I'm not going to even bother because the rings only argument is as flawed as it gets.

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 10:26 PM
a question here is Why should any player that has NOT BEEN able to ever lead a team to a RING be ranked ABOVE players that have INDEED made it, and made it more than once in some cases.
This goes for both Ewing and Iverson, or other players already receiving votes like Payton, Nash, Gervin or Tmac.

They should definelty be BEHIND those players that lead teams to rings:
Cousy, Frazier, Hayes or Unseld ( the one you consider the leader on the bullets ring team), Cowens, Walton, Schayes.

Then what about those who were able to win it MULTIPLE times as SECOND options and that even won some Finals mvps ? the Worhtys and Mchales of the world.

I agree with Walton as he gave the Blazers there only title in franchise history, however how many good years did he have? Also Reed is the guy with the MVP and finals mvp's not Frazier.

Regarding Cowens well he went to a winning organization that already had a champion already in HONDO. So using he won for him doesn't mean much to me as it is a winning franchise before he was there.

Hellcrooner
09-05-2011, 10:33 PM
I agree with Walton as he gave the Blazers there only title in franchise history, however how many good years did he have? Also Reed is the guy with the MVP and finals mvp's not Frazier.

Regarding Cowens well he went to a winning organization that already had a champion already in HONDO. So using he won for him doesn't mean much to me as it is a winning franchise before he was there.

lol i can guarantee you that the 08 title does not take away anything from pierce or kg ( whoever you want to call the leader) because of being a title of a "winning franchise" , after 22 years that is not the case AT ALL.

of course you only bring up that thing to try to hype you know who.

JordansBulls
09-05-2011, 10:46 PM
lol i can guarantee you that the 08 title does not take away anything from pierce or kg ( whoever you want to call the leader) because of being a title of a "winning franchise" , after 22 years that is not the case AT ALL.

of course you only bring up that thing to try to hype you know who.

It doesn't take away from them in comparison with guys who haven't won who are roughly on the same level, but in comparison in guys who has as the franchise leader and teams that never won before they arrived like Isiah, Barry, Dirk, etc

Like for KG IMO it hurts him in a comparison with Dirk.

Hellcrooner
09-05-2011, 10:57 PM
It doesn't take away from them in comparison with guys who haven't won who are roughly on the same level, but in comparison in guys who has as the franchise leader and teams that never won before they arrived like Isiah, Barry, Dirk, etc

Like for KG IMO it hurts him in a comparison with Dirk.
Lol, if kg had been in the mavs the whole 2000s instead of Dirk, with all the money on players that ucban has swung around he would have 3 or 4 rings by now,
Jerseys dont win the rings no matter how mithic they are, good players and good rosters Do.

Are you gonna punish rose WHEN ( not if , WHEN) he leads chicago to a ring.,?

Chronz
09-05-2011, 11:16 PM
Tell me who else have you seen a decent argument for? Walt? That's about it. In terms of the arguments the A.I. fanboys have brought forth more than any else has brought for their player/s the last few rounds. Others have done the very same pasting of "arbitrary" numbers I don't see them being chastised for it.
The lack of quality arguments for a player doesnt change the fact that the arguments for AI are even weaker, the rebuttals to criticism are even worse, I mean we're suppose to give him extra credit for aesthetics. Ill admit it makes him memorable but it doesnt make him superior. Nobody should feel remorse for taking the more physically gifted player even if his game isnt as pleasing to the eye. I mean cmon look at the stats they are posting, look at this next response.....



I know Iverson wouldn't miss an open finger roll in a crucial game..
........

:clap:
You truly are a credit to our members, great contribution. AI wouldnt miss a layup. Your right about that, he would have lost the game a long time before then.

Chronz
09-05-2011, 11:17 PM
I think it's funny that Iverson gets popular one round and the next round, another player jumps up that didn't even get the kind of votes he got in the last round. It's like people are looking for a reason NOT to have Iverson high on the list. Well, this is where he belongs all time in the 30-35 range, let's see if he's allowed in.
I dont think its funny that a variety of voters have continued choosing for superior players while mostly the same fanboys vote for AI.

SteBO
09-05-2011, 11:27 PM
Closed via OP request. Next one will be up in a bit......