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View Full Version : Question: Why do Offensive non-defense Players, Overate Defensive non-offense Players



ewmania
09-03-2011, 01:07 AM
just something I was always confused about

Take a guy like Dirk, I love this guy... Just like Melo he can score basically anywhere on the floor weather in the post or perimeter . He can create his own shot and due to his size makes it difficult for 98% of the NBA to guard him.... But we all know Dirk has problems on the defensive end he seems to get lazy at times and comes late on help defense, and he's not too great on defending the post with guys like Dwight, Duncan, etc.... but even with his defense problems he's still a top notch superstar and a top PF

Okay now lets take guys like Iggy, Perkins, Rondo... Rondo & Iggy are hands down the best perimeter defenders in the league... they defend the passing lanes beautifully and they are complete pests to ball handlers. Rondo is great at help defense and iggy has the power and speed to guard 3 positions... but due to these guys offensive woe's such as rondo who never really looks for his own shot, doesn't shoot well from the 3pt line and has a poor FT%. or iggy who's as inconsistent as they come from the perimeter and can become a bit of a chucker... these guys too most are considered not as good or overrated just for that simple fact

so how can a guy who's a offensive threat with no defense can be looked at as top notch... but a guy who's a defensive threat with no offense can't be looked that way as well

Durant, Dirk, Melo... game changers

Iggy, Perkins, Rondo... game changers

I see no difference from either parties

lurkinglionsfan
09-03-2011, 01:13 AM
it depends personally i dont thinkl offense is as important as defense but others think opposite (although the saying is defense wins championships) . I will say this though people only think rondo is overraeted caus of who he plays with.

nyanks79
09-03-2011, 01:28 AM
You always need that one guy to score. If you have a team of role players who cant create there own shot your never going to go far. The Pistons IMO are the exception.

Plus perimeter defense isnt as important as a big man, and Perkins isnt as impactful as you think. Why do you think Dwight gets so much credit? Its because he takes a team with Arenas, Hedo, and Ryan Anderson and make them a top defensive team. Thats why Dwight gets the recognition he gets.

I actually think people overrate role players who are more defensive specialists over scorers off the bench.

THE GIPPER
09-03-2011, 02:00 AM
great offense > great defense

ewmania
09-03-2011, 02:01 AM
You always need that one guy to score. If you have a team of role players who cant create there own shot your never going to go far. The Pistons IMO are the exception.

Plus perimeter defense isnt as important as a big man, and Perkins isnt as impactful as you think. Why do you think Dwight gets so much credit? Its because he takes a team with Arenas, Hedo, and Ryan Anderson and make them a top defensive team. Thats why Dwight gets the recognition he gets.

I actually think people overrate role players who are more defensive specialists over scorers off the bench.

just because a guy is a defensive specialist doesnt make him just a roleplayer

JJ reddick can get hot and is a really good scorer but he's just a roleplayer

perkins is more than a roleplayer. he'll start on 95% of any team in the league and can get them in the playoffs with his stops

douglas
09-03-2011, 02:14 AM
The team with more points at the end of the game usually wins

Chronz
09-03-2011, 02:19 AM
Because Defense at the individual level isnt as valuable as an offensively dominant player, but I disagree with you labeling Dirk a bad defender.

nyanks79
09-03-2011, 02:32 AM
just because a guy is a defensive specialist doesnt make him just a roleplayer

JJ reddick can get hot and is a really good scorer but he's just a roleplayer

perkins is more than a roleplayer. he'll start on 95% of any team in the league and can get them in the playoffs with his stops

So then I guess we difer on role players.

Perkins wouldnt start on 95% of the teams. And its not really close. Thats saying hes a top 3 center. You think putting Perkins on the Cavs gives them a better shot at making the playoffs then say, Melo?

Ebbs
09-03-2011, 02:38 AM
Like Chronz said Dirk isn't a bad defender.

But the main reason I think is that defense is 50% work ethic and hustle where offense requires far more skill and talent.

NYKNYGNYY
09-03-2011, 03:06 AM
took me a little while to understand this lol but its cus points and assists are better looking stats then steals and blocks imo

iam brett favre
09-03-2011, 03:21 AM
The real question: Why do people overrate Kendrick Perkins so much? So annoying

ewmania
09-03-2011, 04:43 AM
So then I guess we difer on role players.

Perkins wouldnt start on 95% of the teams. And its not really close. Thats saying hes a top 3 center. You think putting Perkins on the Cavs gives them a better shot at making the playoffs then say, Melo?

no but if they become successful i believe perkins would have a huge part in it

ewmania
09-03-2011, 04:44 AM
Like Chronz said Dirk isn't a bad defender.

But the main reason I think is that defense is 50% work ethic and hustle where offense requires far more skill and talent.

both of them require work ethic and defense is also about skill talent and brains.... reading offense is just as tough as reading defense

sventhedog
09-03-2011, 09:00 AM
because it's harder for a team to help you on offense compared to helping you on defense.

thus the term 'help defense'
no 'help offense'

theheatles
09-03-2011, 10:40 AM
offense is more of a skill set thing and defense is predicated more on 'will'

Hellcrooner
09-03-2011, 10:43 AM
sometimes its defense what gets overated.

I mean ive seen people rate Rodman or Ben wallace over the likes of Webber, Rasheed or pau.

Wich is R.I.D.I.C.U.L.O.U.S

llemon
09-03-2011, 11:54 AM
The team with more points at the end of the game usually wins

And the team with less points usually loses.

topdog
09-03-2011, 12:12 PM
I think you use poor examples, but "offense-only" players have more value because you can disguise their bad defense in a team scheme, whereas "defense-only" players don't need to be covered on offense and it leads to double teams.

pd1dish
09-03-2011, 12:45 PM
The real question: Why do people overrate Kendrick Perkins so much? So annoying

hes good, solid player on the right team. he needs to be with other guys that can score the ball so that he is the last option on offense. that way he can focus on the defensive end of the floor and rebounding. Perkins and Ibaka are really scary to go into the lane against. he should be a good fit there as that team continues to get better and develop into a dominant team.

effen5
09-03-2011, 01:48 PM
sometimes its defense what gets overated.

I mean ive seen people rate Rodman or Ben wallace over the likes of Webber, Rasheed or pau.

Wich is R.I.D.I.C.U.L.O.U.S

I think I would take Rodman over those three...Rodman was an amazing defender that would get under peoples skins and obviously his rebounding is just unheard of.

effen5
09-03-2011, 01:49 PM
great offense > great defense

Phoenix Suns?


Yeah I don't think so.

Sactown
09-03-2011, 02:02 PM
Because I think a team with

nash
wade
melo
dirk
amare

has a better chance at winning a series over

rondo
tony allen
shane battier
ben wallace
Perkins

Raps08-09 Champ
09-03-2011, 02:47 PM
The real question: Why do people overrate Kendrick Perkins so much? So annoying

Because he will shoot you if you talk bad about him.

ewmania
09-03-2011, 07:02 PM
Because I think a team with

nash
wade
melo
dirk
amare

has a better chance at winning a series over

rondo
tony allen
shane battier
ben wallace
Perkins


u kno whats funny, everybody on the team u dont want has won more rings than the guys you do want... only 2 guys on your team won a chip

4 guys on the team you don't want has a ring

EDIT: and tell that to the 04 pistons when they beat 4 offensive minded hall of famers

ewmania
09-03-2011, 07:06 PM
sometimes its defense what gets overated.

I mean ive seen people rate Rodman or Ben wallace over the likes of Webber, Rasheed or pau.

Wich is R.I.D.I.C.U.L.O.U.S

yeah you wouldn't choose a guy who's won multiple chips on two different teams as a big part over guys who hasn't ... yeah that make sense

mttwlsn16
09-03-2011, 07:09 PM
it depends personally i dont thinkl offense is as important as defense but others think opposite (although the saying is defense wins championships) . I will say this though people only think rondo is overraeted caus of who he plays with.

rajon rondo is crazy overrated...guess that happens when u have paul pierce and KGand ray allen on ur team

ewmania
09-03-2011, 07:11 PM
I think you use poor examples, but "offense-only" players have more value because you can disguise their bad defense in a team scheme, whereas "defense-only" players don't need to be covered on offense and it leads to double teams.

okay but there's pro's and cons to everything. i'm not saying offensive players shouldn't get credit. But I feel defensive players need the same amount

okay guys like Dirk draw double teams and has been drawing double teams all his life. But it finally took defensive minded guys like chandler and butler to change the atmosphere to make them a title winning team. and at the end of the day that's all that matters and that's what win championships

any wet shooter can score 40 if they chuck as much as monti ellis.

llemon
09-03-2011, 07:18 PM
You generally have to have a go-to guy (at least one) and a very good-to-great defense, or (as in the '04 Pistons case), an excellent offensive system and an excellent defense (although Kobe played like he was determined to bring down the '04 Lakers) to win a Title, or really to even get to the Finals.

AntiG
09-03-2011, 08:27 PM
been saying this for years now on this board.

bovice163
09-03-2011, 08:33 PM
Because offense is more dynamic in terms of value, especially in the playoffs. There are always those offensive players that still get theirs, no matter how good the defense may be, while relying on defense to win each and every game would end in failure. The '11 Bulls are a great example. Elite defensive team with a mediocre offense, who was exposed by the offensive powerhouse in Miami.

llemon
09-03-2011, 08:38 PM
Because offense is more dynamic in terms of value, especially in the playoffs. There are always those offensive players that still get theirs, no matter how good the defense may be, while relying on defense to win each and every game would end in failure. The '11 Bulls are a great example. Elite defensive team with a mediocre offense, who was exposed by the offensive powerhouse in Miami.

But Heat had a premiere offense, and Mavs defense shut them down, especially late in games.

SouthSideSox
09-03-2011, 08:45 PM
offense is more of a skill set thing and defense is predicated more on 'will'

Tell that to Kyle Korver.

bovice163
09-03-2011, 08:46 PM
But Heat had a premiere offense, and Mavs defense shut them down, especially late in games.

The difference is that the Mavs had a great offense, as well as a good defense with a very deep and talented roster from top to bottom. Throw in Dirk's absolutely dominating finals performance and you have your answer. I think Miami was very capable of beating Dallas, but I think there was more to it than the Mav's stifling defense. You could tell in the mid and later games of the series, that LeBron really didn't have his legs under him, and had a very underwhelming performance in the midst of a Mavs team which clicked at exactly the right time.

SteBO
09-03-2011, 08:50 PM
But Heat had a premiere offense, and Mavs defense shut them down, especially late in games.
It wasn't really anything special in terms of the Mavs' defensive scheme. It was actually a simple zone, but Miami did a poor job in finding the gaps, but I credit Dallas for alot of that. Realistically, great offense will always be better than great defense. BTW, the Heat offense wasn't premiere. There are quite a few teams in the league that are better on offense from a scheme and efficiency standpoint than the Heat, including the Mavs. That's why I knew the Heat were in some trouble, even in a 2-2 series tie because up to that point the Mavs didn't shoot that well. At some point, they were going to make shots and the law of averages were going to kick in. And it suddenly happened. When you make shots, it doesn't matter how good your defense is.

llemon
09-03-2011, 08:57 PM
The difference is that the Mavs had a great offense, as well as a good defense with a very deep and talented roster from top to bottom. Throw in Dirk's absolutely dominating finals performance and you have your answer. I think Miami was very capable of beating Dallas, but I think there was more to it than the Mav's stifling defense. You could tell in the mid and later games of the series, that LeBron really didn't have his legs under him, and had a very underwhelming performance in the midst of a Mavs team which clicked at exactly the right time.

I did say that a Finals team had to have a good offense, and generally a go to guy.

But it was Mavs defense (and Dirk) that dominated the end of games. Dirk could have scored on every possession down the stretch, but if Mavs defense wasn't shutting down Heat offense at the end of games, Heat take the Finals.

Mavs played better defense than the Heat did, and I think that was pretty obvious.

bovice163
09-03-2011, 09:06 PM
I did say that a Finals team had to have a good offense, and generally a go to guy.

But it was Mavs defense (and Dirk) that dominated the end of games. Dirk could have scored on every possession down the stretch, but if Mavs defense wasn't shutting down Heat offense at the end of games, Heat take the Finals.

Mavs played better defense than the Heat did, and I think that was pretty obvious.

I just acknowledged that the Mavs played great defense in the series, but that doesn't change the fact that LeBron willingly handed the reigns over to Wade in the late game situations, and just stood in the corner kicking and moving the ball. The Bulls played some pretty excellent defense against Miami as well, but LeBron had a completely different demeanor in that series, and I would say was the biggest reason they won. It almost seemed like he was detrimental to the Heat's success in the Finals though.

KeepMonta#8
09-03-2011, 09:14 PM
Because Defense at the individual level isnt as valuable as an offensively dominant player, but I disagree with you labeling Dirk a bad defender.

below average defender bud

llemon
09-03-2011, 09:21 PM
I just acknowledged that the Mavs played great defense in the series, but that doesn't change the fact that LeBron willingly handed the reigns over to Wade in the late game situations, and just stood in the corner kicking and moving the ball. The Bulls played some pretty excellent defense against Miami as well, but LeBron had a completely different demeanor in that series, and I would say was the biggest reason they won. It almost seemed like he was detrimental to the Heat's success in the Finals though.

Could it be because Mavs were defending Lebron so well? Give it some thought.

SirDJ
09-03-2011, 09:38 PM
one player cant make a defensive unit win games. where as an offensive player can carry his team.

Sactown
09-03-2011, 09:51 PM
u kno whats funny, everybody on the team u dont want has won more rings than the guys you do want... only 2 guys on your team won a chip

4 guys on the team you don't want has a ring

EDIT: and tell that to the 04 pistons when they beat 4 offensive minded hall of famers

Adam Morrison has 2 rings.. and everybody on the Pistons minus Ben Wallace were good offensive players lol... They were well balanced and if you think the defense side of my situation would win a series you're high

AntiG
09-03-2011, 10:07 PM
The '11 Bulls are a great example. Elite defensive team with a mediocre offense, who was exposed by the offensive powerhouse in Miami.

You are forgetting that Miami was also a defensive juggernaut all season as well though, and it was their elite defense that shut down the Bulls' offense.

llemon
09-03-2011, 10:21 PM
You are forgetting that Miami was also a defensive juggernaut all season as well though, and it was their elite defense that shut down the Bulls' offense.

I forget nothing. Bulls offense included Bogans and Noah, forcing Rose to assume too much of the offense.

Mavs defense was just too much more 'elite' for the Heat.

And, of course, on offense, Rose ain't Dirk. Much easier for Heat to shut down Rose than shut down Dirk, especially as doubling Dirk meant an open three within a few passes.

Korman12
09-03-2011, 10:40 PM
One of the assumptions that comes with it has to do a lot with the payroll equivalents between offensive non-defensive players and defensive non-offensive players. In this regard I'm not really talking about Wade, Dwight Howard, or whoever, but basically one end of the floor guys (Perkins, Battier, Bargnani, Ellis, etc.)

Usually players of any regard that create offensive contribution (i.e. Ellis) in any way will garner higher pay incentive than say a defensive stud like prime Battier or Tony Allen. Numerical contribution (not necessarily regarding rebounding and blocks in this scenario) will garner more attention no matter what from a general media standpoint, hence the overpaying and therefore overrating.

ewmania
09-03-2011, 10:56 PM
Because offense is more dynamic in terms of value, especially in the playoffs. There are always those offensive players that still get theirs, no matter how good the defense may be, while relying on defense to win each and every game would end in failure. The '11 Bulls are a great example. Elite defensive team with a mediocre offense, who was exposed by the offensive powerhouse in Miami.

then i could use the 05 to 08 Phoenix as an example... elite offensive team with no defense... either way it can go both ways

all I'm saying is defensive players deserve the same amount of respect as offensive players... because you need both to win a chip

ewmania
09-03-2011, 10:59 PM
One of the assumptions that comes with it has to do a lot with the payroll equivalents between offensive non-defensive players and defensive non-offensive players. In this regard I'm not really talking about Wade, Dwight Howard, or whoever, but basically one end of the floor guys (Perkins, Battier, Bargnani, Ellis, etc.)

Usually players of any regard that create offensive contribution (i.e. Ellis) in any way will garner higher pay incentive than say a defensive stud like prime Battier or Tony Allen. Numerical contribution (not necessarily regarding rebounding and blocks in this scenario) will garner more attention no matter what from a general media standpoint, hence the overpaying and therefore overrating.

because offense high offense games are high rated... people love watching warrior games or loved watching the old kings back in 01 . but neither one of them won anything

LOOKOUT88
09-04-2011, 12:31 AM
Perk might be one of the most overrated defenders in the league. His greatest strength is playing defense with his back to the basket and his not great at that by any means. Get him off the block , face him up and you can **** on me all day. He benifited so much by playing with guys like KG , Rondo , PP. KG being one of the best help and pick n roll defenders ever. It was telling that OKC's best line-up was with him on the bench.

Korman12
09-04-2011, 12:35 AM
because offense high offense games are high rated... people love watching warrior games or loved watching the old kings back in 01 . but neither one of them won anything

Also agree. In large part it's a beneficiary of the way the casual fans think. For instance, a lot of Sixers' fans (I'll stick with the PSD ones, not the casual ones) don't really - and I'm biased here - care for Lou Williams. We all know what he can do, but he's fairly one dimensional, offensive-oriented, and inefficient given a larger playing time.

Regardless, he's one of the teams' more popular players simply for the fact that he plays the game so similar to Monta Ellis, and a casual fan will recognize that much easier than tough perimeter defense and consistent shot contention.

It's all about what fans can recognize on the most basic level.

Korman12
09-04-2011, 12:37 AM
Perk might be one of the most overrated defenders in the league. His greatest strength is playing defense with his back to the basket and his not great at that by any means. Get him off the block , face him up and you can **** on me all day. He benifited so much by playing with guys like KG , Rondo , PP. KG being one of the best help and pick n roll defenders ever. It was telling that OKC's best line-up was with him on the bench.

I did consider this, but I put him in my example because we're talking about players that only considered on one end of the floor. And by that measure, he's still somewhat living off his reputation in Boston. And fans still link that to his name.

LOOKOUT88
09-04-2011, 01:01 AM
Perk might be one of the most overrated defenders in the league. His greatest strength is playing defense with his back to the basket and his not great at that by any means. Get him off the block , face him up and you can **** on me all day. He benifited so much by playing with guys like KG , Rondo , PP. KG being one of the best help and pick n roll defenders ever. It was telling that OKC's best line-up was with him on the bench.

LOOKOUT88
09-04-2011, 01:02 AM
Sorry don't know that happened.

PrettyBoyJ
09-04-2011, 01:13 AM
I think an offensive minded player will always be more valuable then a defensive player simply cuz you can learn and work on your defense oppose to defensive minded players who just doesnt posses the skills or talent to be a good offensive guy.. Look at guys like Kobe, Lebron, Wade.. even Dwight Howard.. They all worked on their defense and became good defenders..

THE GIPPER
09-04-2011, 01:42 AM
Phoenix Suns?


Yeah I don't think so.

I was reffering to a 1 on 1 (Ill take the best offensive player to beat the best defensive player in a 1 on 1 situation any day) situation but if you want to bring out the whole suns thing I'll go out on a limb and say they were one bodycheck away from the championship in 07.

ewmania
09-04-2011, 01:50 AM
I think an offensive minded player will always be more valuable then a defensive player simply cuz you can learn and work on your defense oppose to defensive minded players who just doesnt posses the skills or talent to be a good offensive guy.. Look at guys like Kobe, Lebron, Wade.. even Dwight Howard.. They all worked on their defense and became good defenders..

thats false because there's tons of defensive minded players who improved they offense

trevor ariza, pretty decent from the 3pt line now
ron artest
dwight howard, was more of a defensive player first


maybe its just my views because I love defense... I'd take a young ben wallace over a young jamal crawford any day of the week

Korman12
09-04-2011, 02:31 AM
thats false because there's tons of defensive minded players who improved they offense

trevor ariza, pretty decent from the 3pt line now
ron artest
dwight howard, was more of a defensive player first


maybe its just my views because I love defense... I'd take a young ben wallace over a young jamal crawford any day of the week

Well, that's not really fair to Jamal Crawford. Wallace's prime had an insanely high value on defense. In single season defensive win shares, Wallace is one of only two players to rank in the top 20 since the NBA merger (94 Ewing was the other) during the Piston's championship year.

It's fairer to actually compare Wallace's peak defensive years to Reggie Miller's peak offensive years, if we're only looking at singular dimensions (offensive v. defense).

Korman12
09-04-2011, 02:32 AM
God I miss basketball

ewmania
09-04-2011, 08:16 AM
God I miss basketball

me 2 hahaha

Mishmin
09-04-2011, 09:37 AM
This is a pretty good question. I think defensive stars are being appreciated more in today's game. If you have intensity at either side of the floor you'll get a roster spot.

And for the record, although Rondo is a first team defender, calling him a poor offensive player is totally naive. He can't shoot, yes, but when he's in the game, he is in total control of a very effective offensive set. He is the engine.

foz
09-04-2011, 10:26 AM
because of fantasy sports.

Korman12
09-04-2011, 07:05 PM
because of fantasy sports.

Actually, that's a pretty good reason.

ewmania
09-04-2011, 10:46 PM
This is a pretty good question. I think defensive stars are being appreciated more in today's game. If you have intensity at either side of the floor you'll get a roster spot.

And for the record, although Rondo is a first team defender, calling him a poor offensive player is totally naive. He can't shoot, yes, but when he's in the game, he is in total control of a very effective offensive set. He is the engine.

great point