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Mile High Champ
09-02-2011, 03:38 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

1) Lebron James
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2010 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Kevin Durant
5) Chris Paul
6) Dwight Howard
7) Carmelo Anthony
8) Dirk Nowitzki
9) Deron Williams
10) Tim Duncan - Pau Gasol Tie


2009 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwayne Wade
4) Chris Paul
5) Dwight Howard
6) Tim Duncan
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Carmelo Anthony
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Brandon Roy

Mile High Champ
09-02-2011, 03:40 PM
I will add more players after the first poll. The following 5 players are the ones that won their respective polls.

SteBO
09-02-2011, 03:42 PM
LeBron James.

This will be tons of fun.......

Sadds The Gr8
09-02-2011, 03:42 PM
Dwight prolly wont win but i'm voting him based off his dominance on defense, and now his newly attained dominance on offense.

Chacarron
09-02-2011, 03:43 PM
Bron Bron.

LTBaByyy
09-02-2011, 03:44 PM
To be honest, it is really Dwight Howard.

He just plays with a garbage supporting cast and doesnt get credit.

Howard
James
Wade
Nowitzki
CP3

Mile High Champ
09-02-2011, 03:45 PM
I love Dwight and I really wanted to pick him as I believe him to be the guy I would start my franchise with if given the chance. But hey, that is not the question we are asking here. After seeing what Dirk did this year and what Lebron failed to do, I have to go with Dirk. I know it is one post season run but I simply can't take Lebron after what went down this spring. He will likely be number 1 next time we do this poll but not right now.

Avenged
09-02-2011, 03:47 PM
Went with Dwight due to his defensive dominance and his underrated and improved offensive game.

Dwight had himself a good postseason performance.. shame his teammates didn't come through.

Ebbs
09-02-2011, 03:50 PM
How long til Bulls fans say "wait why is paul on the list and not Rose?"

Gators123
09-02-2011, 03:52 PM
LeBron

Cal827
09-02-2011, 03:56 PM
Scalabraine... oh I see he isn't here... I guess Lebron is a close runner up.
Really tough to pick him over the guy who will likely be the 2 pick (Dwight)

LTBaByyy
09-02-2011, 03:58 PM
If Dwight played with a superstar or shoot even an all star!!! This would be him no doubt

His teammates are garbage, just look at the line up with out him

Nelson
Richardson
Hedo
Bass
Anderson


^^^^ Hahahahaha wow. Howard does not get enough credit

Ebbs
09-02-2011, 03:59 PM
I'm voting

LeBron
Dirk
Dwight
Wade
CP3
Durant
Deron
Rose
Kobe
Melo

SteBO
09-02-2011, 04:00 PM
I will concede that Howard has a pretty strong case here too.

alencp3
09-02-2011, 04:03 PM
how did kobe win in 2009 and 2010 ?

naps
09-02-2011, 04:04 PM
LeBron James by far.

Sadds The Gr8
09-02-2011, 04:06 PM
lol @ by far.

JordansBulls
09-02-2011, 04:06 PM
How long til Bulls fans say "wait why is paul on the list and not Rose?"

He should clearly be on the list. Doesn't mean he was the best, but anyone who wins league mvp should be on the list for having a case for being the #1 player in the league that year even if they weren't.

SteBO
09-02-2011, 04:09 PM
How long til Bulls fans say "wait why is paul on the list and not Rose?"


He should clearly be on the list. Doesn't mean he was the best, but anyone who wins league mvp should be on the list for having a case for being the #1 player in the league that year even if they weren't.
If they do, then they clearly missed this post right here...


I will add more players after the first poll. The following 5 players are the ones that won their respective polls.

Ebbs
09-02-2011, 04:11 PM
how did kobe win in 2009 and 2010 ?

Because PSD's NBA forum is heavy on the homers. Trust there has been a few of us every year tryign to tell people it's not even a debate between Bron and Kobe but we usually lose.

NYMetros
09-02-2011, 04:11 PM
I simply can't vote for LeBron after his latest Finals performance. I just can't. Comes down to Dwight and Wade for me, I'll go with Dwight.

JordansBulls
09-02-2011, 04:19 PM
Dirk Nowitzki in a landslide. Mavs were 2-7 without him. Was the only allstar on his team. Beat the 2x defending champions who had a higher SRS rating, better offensive and defense and beat a team that had 3 allstars with two of which are considered routinely top 3 in the league and did so without HCA.



Dallas
57-25,
Coach: Rick Carlisle (57-25)

PTS/G: 100.2 (11th of 30) ? Opp PTS/G: 96.0 (10th of 30)
SRS: 4.41 (8th of 30) ? Pace: 91.3 (18th of 30)
Off Rtg: 109.7 (8th of 30) ? Def Rtg: 105.0 (8th of 30)
Expected W-L: 53-29 (8th of 30)



Miami
58-24, 1st in NBA Southeast Division (Schedule and Results)
Coach: Erik Spoelstra (58-24)

PTS/G: 102.1 (8th of 30) ? Opp PTS/G: 94.6 (6th of 30)
SRS: 6.76 (1st of 30) ? Pace: 90.9 (20th of 30)
Off Rtg: 111.7 (3rd of 30) ? Def Rtg: 103.5 (5th of 30)
Expected W-L: 61-21 (2nd of 30)


Miami had a higher SRS rating, Allowed Fewer PPG, Averaged more PPG, had a higher Expected W-L, had a higher Offensive and Defensive Rating and the Mavs were missing 3 players in Caron Butler, Rodrigue Beaubois and Brendan Haywood in the Finals.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/mavericks-heat


Dirk Nowitzki and Mavs become first team in NBA history

To defeat three teams that each had a

ALL-NBA 1st team player and ALL-NBA 2nd team player:

Kobe and Gasol
Durant and Westbrook
LeBron and Wade


So yeah Dirk was clearly the best last year, not to mention that the other guys lost with HCA.


Also even though I wouldn't vote for Rose here, as I have been saying Dirk has been the best, I find it hilarious that a guy who finished 13th in MVP voting in the league is in the poll when he lost in round 1 while a guy who actually won MVP and got to the conference finals as the only star on his team is not even in the poll.


And yet a guy who got outscored by Jason Terry in the finals is leading the poll.:silly:


Example: It's like taking a class and do you well all the way to the final exam. Well in school the final exam is worth more than anything else you did all semester in most classes. Same should be the case here.

Da Knicks
09-02-2011, 04:25 PM
Thought lebron was the best for the last 4 years but these playoffs made me go with Howard. My next pick will be Dirk and i will follow that up with Melo because im a homer like that!

Ebbs
09-02-2011, 04:26 PM
JB makes me wish I voted Dirk :(

JordansBulls
09-02-2011, 04:29 PM
I will add more players after the first poll. The following 5 players are the ones that won their respective polls.

Not practical. Imagine if you did that with all players all time. That you only took the best PG, Best SG, Best SF, Best PF and Best C. You essentially would leave out 4 centers who are in the conversation when all 5 (Kareem, Russell, Hakeem, Wilt and Shaq) all deserve to be in a poll.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-02-2011, 04:33 PM
LeBron
Dwight
Wade
Cp3
Dirk
Melo
Durant
Rose
Kobe
Amar'e

MackSnackWrap
09-02-2011, 04:35 PM
King Bron Bron James

Cano4prez
09-02-2011, 04:47 PM
LeBron easily.

juno10
09-02-2011, 05:10 PM
lebron by a landslide.

airronijordan
09-02-2011, 05:17 PM
I dont think Lebron is the best player...he's the most talented player but never plays to his max potential

I went with Dirk on this one due to his hot postseason performance, Wade is a close 2nd

pedrofan45
09-02-2011, 05:25 PM
Some people are just so blinded by their hatred... Voted Lebron, clearly the best in the NBA, then I'm going with Dwight... that's an obvious 1-2

People who say Dirk... Look he had a great run and he had a great finals.. But please, it's a TEAM game, just because his TEAM won doesn't mean he's the best in the NBA. Let's not forget that if it wasn't for Terry and everyone else Dirk wouldn't even be in the discussion for best in the nba. Dirk is a great player, one of the greatest.. Everyone was on his back for not winning a championship and finally he pulled through.. But that doesn't make him the best in the NBA.. It's a TEAM sport.. how can say i this more clearly.... TEAM!!! Lebron is the most talented and dominating player in the NBA.. Just ask the Cavs, they went from being the best to the worst

GREATNESS ONE
09-02-2011, 05:32 PM
how did kobe win in 2009 and 2010 ?

:punish

:win::win: :nod:


Taking D12 here because I still believe the game goes inside out and if I could choose one of these players to start a team, he's my choice.

Avenged
09-02-2011, 05:50 PM
Not practical. Imagine if you did that with all players all time. That you only took the best PG, Best SG, Best SF, Best PF and Best C. You essentially would leave out 4 centers who are in the conversation when all 5 (Kareem, Russell, Hakeem, Wilt and Shaq) all deserve to be in a poll.

Nah, I like it. If a player wasn't able to win the top spot at their position, then it doesn't make sense for them to be voted in as the best player in the league.

heattiltheend94
09-02-2011, 05:52 PM
1. LeBron
2. Wade
3. D12
4. Kobe
5. Durant
6. Dirk
7.Paul
8. Rose
9. Melo
10.Stoudmeire
7.

LTBaByyy
09-02-2011, 06:26 PM
^^^^ Hahahaha Durant is not better than Dirk

naps
09-02-2011, 06:34 PM
:punish

:win::win: :nod:


Taking D12 here because I still believe the game goes inside out and if I could choose one of these players to start a team, he's my choice.

Well Dwight not a bad choice but that bolded part can't be used here in this thread. Clearly, this thread is not asking for a player to build around for future. In that case Dirk won't be in the list.

VCaintdead17
09-02-2011, 06:44 PM
Dwyane Wade cuz well...why not. :shrug:

JordansBulls
09-02-2011, 06:47 PM
Some people are just so blinded by their hatred... Voted Lebron, clearly the best in the NBA, then I'm going with Dwight... that's an obvious 1-2

People who say Dirk... Look he had a great run and he had a great finals.. But please, it's a TEAM game, just because his TEAM won doesn't mean he's the best in the NBA. Let's not forget that if it wasn't for Terry and everyone else Dirk wouldn't even be in the discussion for best in the nba. Dirk is a great player, one of the greatest.. Everyone was on his back for not winning a championship and finally he pulled through.. But that doesn't make him the best in the NBA.. It's a TEAM sport.. how can say i this more clearly.... TEAM!!! Lebron is the most talented and dominating player in the NBA.. Just ask the Cavs, they went from being the best to the worst

:laugh:

You can't be serious here. You bringing up Dirk winning with Jason Terry a guy who was the 6th man on the team when Lebron couldn't even win with a guy who already won as the man and another top 15 player in the league who are guys who were #1 options for most of the there careers?

Best Player in the league don't get outscored in the finals by guys who come off the bench for an entire series.

THE GIPPER
09-02-2011, 06:47 PM
1. Lebron
2. Dwight
3. Cp3
4. Wade
5. Dirk
6. Durant
7. Rose
8. Melo
9. Deron
10. Kobe

The Flash
09-02-2011, 06:54 PM
HIM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YckTXZ3WjA0

SteBO
09-02-2011, 07:03 PM
JB, winning is a team accomplishment and one series cannot scar what a player has done for an entire season. Dirk hasn't even been considered a top 3 player in the nba for quite a few years now while putting up similar numbers, but now that he wins a ring it puts him above LeBron, a dominating force on both ends? Stop living in the moment people. Last I checked, the MAVS won the title, not Dirk alone.

Sadds The Gr8
09-02-2011, 07:09 PM
JB, winning is a team accomplishment and one series cannot scar what a player has done for an entire season. Dirk hasn't even been considered a top 3 player in the nba for quite a few years now while putting up similar numbers, but now that he wins a ring it puts him above LeBron, a dominating force on both ends? Stop living in the moment people. Last I checked, the MAVS won the title, not Dirk alone.

yes it can. it happened to Dirk in his MVP season after the Warriors loss, and it happened when Dallas lost in the finals to Miami in 06...

THE GIPPER
09-02-2011, 07:09 PM
:laugh:

You can't be serious here. You bringing up Dirk winning with Jason Terry a guy who was the 6th man on the team when Lebron couldn't even win with a guy who already won as the man and another top 15 player in the league who are guys who were #1 options for most of the there careers?

Best Player in the league don't get outscored in the finals by guys who come off the bench for an entire series.

Umm no actually he did this year in the finals

SteBO
09-02-2011, 07:11 PM
yes it can. it happened to Dirk in his MVP season after the Warriors loss, and it happened when Dallas lost in the finals to Miami in 06...
That doesn't make it right though. Rings are a team accomplishment. People need to come to grips with this.

Sadds The Gr8
09-02-2011, 07:12 PM
also happened to Pau Gasol this year.

Ebbs
09-02-2011, 07:12 PM
Dirk was far and away the most valuable player, in the most valuable part of the season the post season. I still took LeBron but voting Dirk is fair.

Sadds The Gr8
09-02-2011, 07:13 PM
That doesn't make it right though. Rings are a team accomplishment. People need to come to grips with this.

well regardless of whether it's right or wrong, it still happened. and im not saying it's not a team achievement but Dirk had a huge lead role and did it the traditional way as the clear #1.

RZZZA
09-02-2011, 07:14 PM
Monta Ellis

GREATNESS ONE
09-02-2011, 07:22 PM
Well Dwight not a bad choice but that bolded part can't be used here in this thread. Clearly, this thread is not asking for a player to build around for future. In that case Dirk won't be in the list.

Fair enough, guess I might have interpreted the question differently.

naps
09-02-2011, 07:23 PM
lol @ by far.

Look at the poll. He is leading by faaaaar.

If it wasn't for the hate LeBron would have gotten 95% votes here.

SteBO
09-02-2011, 07:26 PM
well regardless of whether it's right or wrong, it still happened. and im not saying it's not a team achievement but Dirk had a huge lead role and did it the traditional way as the clear #1.
That still doesn't make him a better player than LeBron. And yeah, whether it's right or wrong does matter because picking the best player on the team that just so happen to win the title isn't how to evaluate players, which in turn is the point of these polls.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
09-02-2011, 07:27 PM
LeBron, but Dwight has shortened the lead a lot after this past season. Wouldn't be surprised to see Dwight take it over next year. Also, lol at Kobe being number one the past two seasons.

salimstoudamire
09-02-2011, 07:40 PM
After playing against him, I have to say Kobe.

Sadds The Gr8
09-02-2011, 07:53 PM
That still doesn't make him a better player than LeBron.
never said he was. i voted for D12.


And yeah, whether it's right or wrong does matter because picking the best player on the team that just so happen to win the title isn't how to evaluate players, which in turn is the point of these polls.

that statement wasn't about titles or best players it was about players who get flack about having bad playoff series'.

SteBO
09-02-2011, 08:00 PM
never said he was. i voted for D12.



that statement wasn't about titles or best players it was about players who get flack about having bad playoff series'.
I think I misread your post a little bit there, but in general people have to stop living in the moment(not you obviously). There's more to evaluating and judging players than just rings even though that is what everyone is fighting for in the NBA. That's all I'm sayin'. This is not to hate on Dirk at all. Deep down, I was actually pretty happy he won the title(after my depression state of Miami losing of course). :)

Bruno
09-02-2011, 08:03 PM
IMO posters shouldn't have to vote for players who won their respective positions on our previous polls. Rose (the MVP) Bryant (current reigning #1) and Durant should be options.

Stack_NJNets
09-02-2011, 08:17 PM
Sasha Vujajcic

Sadds The Gr8
09-02-2011, 08:19 PM
Sasha Vujajcic

any man who can score 30 pts anytime he wants should be the #1 player in the NBA.

theheatles
09-02-2011, 08:30 PM
LeBron
Dwight
DWade

Chacarron
09-02-2011, 09:09 PM
Sasha Vujajcic

:clap:

Bruno
09-02-2011, 09:09 PM
Winning and performing at perk production when it matters most, matters. Posters chanting the "winning is a team accomplishment" mantra are not wrong, but inaccurate through gross generalization. Posters who insist on not using championships and winning as one of several ways to evaluate a players production and value must address why every single NBA championship team since 1991 had been lead to the title by a player who was a NBA regular season MVP at some point in their career (2004 Pistons being the only exception). #1's producing at high levels are very responsible for their teams success, and thus deserve their fair share of the credit from their teams success; I'd like to see an argument opposing that notion.

Like it or not, the #1 player on an NBA team is more responsible for their given teams success than any other player in professional team sports, spare the NFL Quarterback (I'd also accept an argument for goalies in hockey and soccer, but would disagree personally). That is why they receive the most praise when achieving success, and that's why they take the most heat while confronting failure. The "winning is a team accomplishment" posters are not wrong, but they paint with a wide brush, and generalize to an extent in which lazy expressions render inaccurate.

There is a reason why every single NBA championship team dating back to the 1991 NBA Finals were lead by a player who was at some point in their career, an NBA regular season MVP (*2004 Pistons being the only exception). Why is that? To not acknowledge that fact, is to not acknowledge the importance of production from your #1 player (and to not give them the credit for winning, or the shaft for losing).


**Can anyone give me a link to an online TS% calculator. I lost my saved web sights and can't find one anywhere. **

Bruno
09-02-2011, 09:09 PM
LeBron James: 2011 NBA Finals

PPG: 17.8
Assist-to-Turn-over ratio: 1.7:1.0 (1.7 assists for every TO).
FG%- 47.8%
FT% 60%
FTA per game: 3.3.
RPG: 7.2.
S+B per game: 2.2.

Bruno
09-02-2011, 09:16 PM
IMO there isn't a clear cut top player in the NBA. Several have fine arguments.

Mishmin
09-02-2011, 09:24 PM
For me it still has to be Lebron. People focus on his weak finals showing this year and forget the big picture.. that Lebron is changing the game.

Swashcuff
09-02-2011, 09:37 PM
LeBron James

Bruno
09-02-2011, 09:44 PM
For me it still has to be Lebron. People focus on his weak finals showing this year and forget the big picture.. that Lebron is changing the game.

Depends on your interpretation of big picture.

Putting up great regular season stats against the other teams, including 41 or so games vs.sub .500 teams is nice because a big sample size. But relatively low pressure, drawn out, and unfocused. I'll take a 20+ game sample size against the leagues top competition, with all the marbles on the table over an 82 game sample size of unfocused games against many sub .500 teams in regards to how I prioritize my evaluation.

I've highlighted his finals specifically, but if you look at the numbers for the playoffs (all four rounds) he wasn't the best player on his own team. I'm not pulling that out of nowhere, thats Hollinger (PER), TS% (Wade was more efficient) and WS/48. James edged Wade by a tenth of a point in total WS because of his mpg. Wade had him in ever other key advanced statistic.

If the end goal of the regular season is the NBA playoffs, and the end goal of the NBA playoffs is the NBA finals, I'd argue that an analysis of playoff production and NBA finals production is as big picture as it gets.

The NBAs top player shouldn't put up eight points on eleven FGA when his team has an opportunity to go up 3-1 on the worlds biggest stage. That's just my opinion, but I don't think it's an unfair position to take.

WolvesJagsOs
09-02-2011, 09:45 PM
Gonna go with Dwight.

SteBO
09-02-2011, 09:51 PM
Winning and performing at perk production when it matters most, matters. Posters chanting the "winning is a team accomplishment" mantra are not wrong, but inaccurate through gross generalization. Posters who insist on not using championships and winning as one of several ways to evaluate a players production and value must address why every single NBA championship team since 1991 had been lead to the title by a player who was a NBA regular season MVP at some point in their career (2004 Pistons being the only exception). #1's producing at high levels are very responsible for their teams success, and thus deserve their fair share of the credit from their teams success; I'd like to see an argument opposing that notion.

Like it or not, the #1 player on an NBA team is more responsible for their given teams success than any other player in professional team sports, spare the NFL Quarterback (I'd also accept an argument for goalies in hockey and soccer, but would disagree personally). That is why they receive the most praise when achieving success, and that's why they take the most heat while confronting failure. The "winning is a team accomplishment" posters are not wrong, but they paint with a wide brush, and generalize to an extent in which lazy expressions render inaccurate.

There is a reason why every single NBA championship team dating back to the 1991 NBA Finals were lead by a player who was at some point in their career, an NBA regular season MVP (*2004 Pistons being the only exception). Why is that? To not acknowledge that fact, is to not acknowledge the importance of production from your #1 player (and to not give them the credit for winning, or the shaft for losing).


**Can anyone give me a link to an online TS% calculator. I lost my saved web sights and can't find one anywhere. **


LeBron James: 2011 NBA Finals

PPG: 17.8
Assist-to-Turn-over ratio: 1.7:1.0 (1.7 assists for every TO).
FG%- 47.8%
FT% 60%
FTA per game: 3.3.
RPG: 7.2.
S+B per game: 2.2.
I hate speaking in hypotheticals, but I feel it's absolutely necessary here. Had the Mavs lost in these Finals to the Heat with Dirk playing at the high level he was throughout the playoffs and regular season, how much would you undervalue him? Switch over to the Heat, how much would you credit LeBron for helping the Heat win the championship despite his underwhelming Finals performance, but stellar play through the eastern conference playoffs? The common answers in this forum to these questions I posed, will absolutely show the inconsistencies people expose in their arguments when talking about "best player".

Fact is, as much as people want to credit Dirk(well deserved by the way), don't be blinded to the fact that winning is the end all be all here. There are just way too many other factors that go into winning. I get it. LeBron shyed away from the "big moment on the NBA's biggest stage" and averaged a mere 17 ppg on 47 or so percent shooting. I'm not defending that at all. He choked. I saw it. We all saw it. But why does that mean we have to throw out everything else? By that, I mean the ECF, second round vs. BOS, and hell the first round too. Also, regular season counts for that as well whether like that or not.

I'm not delusional to the fact that if LeBron wants to maintain his rightful place of best player in the league today, he's going to need to improve in big moments. And Dirk is a great player no questions asked. But the man cannot be best player in the league now after going seasons of not even cracking the top 3, just because his "team" won the title this past year. Jason Terry, JJ Barea, Tyson Chandler, the sudden emergence of DeShawn Stevenson, the impressive play by Shawn Marion, were just as important to Dallas realizing their dream. Their depth entering that series was off the charts, which isn't something I can say LeBron had. Then again, he did have Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh, but even those guys weren't that stellar when it came down to it, and I credit the Mavs' defense there. Best player on championship team does not = best player in the league. There's no disputing this.

PurpleJesus
09-02-2011, 09:55 PM
it looks like psd has this one right...james is by far the best, and dwight is by far the second best.

SteBO
09-02-2011, 09:56 PM
Dwight Howard is the only other player on this list that has a great case for best player. He dominates both ends of the floor and is a rare player in today's NBA.

da ThRONe
09-02-2011, 10:05 PM
I so wanted to vote for CP3, but LeBron is the best player. What's really scary is he much like Howard isn't even at full capacity. I think Paul is second though. He should be 100% for the 1st time in a min this season(if there is one) and he should have an MVP/LBP type of year. I hope.

JordansBulls
09-02-2011, 10:12 PM
Dwight Howard is the only other player on this list that has a great case for best player. He dominates both ends of the floor and is a rare player in today's NBA.

Losing in round 1 when you have HCA does not give you a case for best in the league.

Wade is the guy after Dirk who can be considered the best based on how he dominated the finals.

JordansBulls
09-02-2011, 10:13 PM
Umm no actually he did this year in the finals

Which is why he is not the best.

JordansBulls
09-02-2011, 10:14 PM
JB, winning is a team accomplishment and one series cannot scar what a player has done for an entire season. Dirk hasn't even been considered a top 3 player in the nba for quite a few years now while putting up similar numbers, but now that he wins a ring it puts him above LeBron, a dominating force on both ends? Stop living in the moment people. Last I checked, the MAVS won the title, not Dirk alone.

Yes and Miami had better numbers all around. Better Defensive, Offense, SRS rating, point differential, more star help, better players while the Mavs had 3 guys out in the finals. Dirk gets the most credit because he was the only star on the team and by far the best on the team. Not only that but beat 2 teams without even having HCA. Beat the 2x defending champions and a team that had 2 of the top 3 players in the league and 3 of the top 15 players in the league.
It's one thing had the Mavs had the better SRS, offensive, defense, and record with the HCA, but they didn't.

Bruno
09-02-2011, 10:19 PM
I hate speaking in hypotheticals, but I feel it's absolutely necessary here. Had the Mavs lost in these Finals to the Heat with Dirk playing at the high level he was throughout the playoffs and regular season, how much would you undervalue him? Switch over to the Heat, how much would you credit LeBron for helping the Heat win the championship despite his underwhelming Finals performance, but stellar play through the eastern conference playoffs? The common answers in this forum to these questions I posed, will absolutely show the inconsistencies people expose in their arguments when talking about "best player".

Fact is, as much as people want to credit Dirk(well deserved by the way), don't be blinded to the fact that winning is the end all be all here. There are just way too many other factors that go into winning. I get it. LeBron shyed away from the "big moment on the NBA's biggest stage" and averaged a mere 17 ppg on 47 or so percent shooting. I'm not defending that at all. He choked. I saw it. We all saw it. But why does that mean we have to throw out everything else? By that, I mean the ECF, second round vs. BOS, and hell the first round too. Also, regular season counts for that as well whether like that or not.

I'm not delusional to the fact that if LeBron wants to maintain his rightful place of best player in the league today, he's going to need to improve in big moments. And Dirk is a great player no questions asked. But the man cannot be best player in the league now after going seasons of not even cracking the top 3, just because his "team" won the title this past year. Jason Terry, JJ Barea, Tyson Chandler, the sudden emergence of DeShawn Stevenson, the impressive play by Shawn Marion, were just as important to Dallas realizing their dream. Their depth entering that series was off the charts, which isn't something I can say LeBron had. Then again, he did Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh, but even those guys weren't that stellar when it came down to it, and I credit the Mavs' defense there. Best player on championship team does not = best player in the league. There's no disputing this.

I'd disagree and say that speaking in hypotheticals isn't necessary here. It just allows us to tip-toe around the facts, and the numbers presented over the 2011 playoffs. What happened happened. I'll entertain it because I think your inquiry is an honest one.

-- Had the Mavs lost, Dirks playoff performance would not have received as much praise. I estimate that he would have gotten a similar wrap as to what he has gotten in years past (Can't get it done, chokes under pressure). I'd argue he would have gotten more credit than in years past (for dominating and leading a sweep vs the defending back-to-back champions), but the same over-arching theme would be there- can't get it done over four best of sevens.

--Had the Heat won, Wade would have most likely won Finals MVP. James would have been off the burner in several ways, considering the importance of team success (and his solid production in the regular season and first three rounds). But people would still have the window to criticize his performance during the finals, simply because of his drop off in production, efficiency, and points per game. It's not that James was overtly horrible in the Finals; the issue is that when people put him up on the pedestal with the GOATS, there lacks a consistency as all of them made their names on playing big when it matters most. We now have two separate examples of his production dropping off considerably come NBA finals time (I personally give him a pass for 2007, that team had no business being in the Finals and the fact that he got them there was remarkable).

And again SteBo, I never claim that winning is all that matters in regards to evaluating a player. I believe it to be a part of the equation (along with production, efficiency, peak, prime, longevity and influence). What I can't accept is not giving a teams best player his fair share of credit, or criticism depending on team results. I believe that the NBA superstar is in more control of his teams destiny than any other player in professional team sports, spare the NFL quarterback. That's why I think that winning and playing well during the most important part of the season is a key element in a players value; they are responsible for a lot of the teams overall success, or lack there of. You can't tell me that Jamess eight points on eleven FGAs during game four when the Heat had an opportunity to go up 3-1 fits within the stero-typical mold of a teams best player, or the leagues best player.

I don't want you to think I'm "throwing everything else out" in the overall evaluation. I'm not, James is a top three player, has been for half a decade (with several years being the clear cut #1, statistically, playoffs included). I'm just presenting the notion that our other options (Wade specifically) played bigger during the playoffs, and that should be considered, despite James regular season dominance.

I agree with your final paragraph/point too. The best player on a championship team does not automatically equate to being the best player in the league, nor was that ever one of my points. Clearly Thomas wasn't the best player in the league in '89 despite Detroit winning it all- plenty of examples like that. I'm also well aware of the depth of the Dallas team; their bench dropped 86 points in LAL during the close-out game four, that's deadly.

I'm just presenting the opinion that LBJ is not the 100% clear cut top player in the NBA, that he was outplayed by Wade during the playoffs (PER, TS%, WS/48) and that our other stars (Dirk, Howard, and Paul specifically) have produced numbers, and done things (defensive impact/legendary performances on the biggest stages) that puts them into the discussion.

JordansBulls
09-02-2011, 10:25 PM
Problem here is had Dirk lost it wouldn't have been a big deal because no one had the MAvs winning it all before the season nor once they got in the playoffs. Not to mention they didn't even have HCA at all.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=SummerForecast10-NBAChamps

1. LA Lakers - 52 votes
2. Miami Heat - 34 votes
3. Orlando Magic - 5 votes
4. Boston Celtics - 1 vote
5. Oklahoma City - 1 vote

Hustlenomics
09-02-2011, 10:28 PM
lebron here and i got dwight after that. it will get interesting after # 2

juno10
09-02-2011, 10:32 PM
Losing in round 1 when you have HCA does not give you a case for best in the league.

Wade is the guy after Dirk who can be considered the best based on how he dominated the finals.

lebrons finals performance was much better than wades ECF finals appearance but wade gets the excuse and can be considered while lebron can't even be in the discussion despite being the 2nd best playoff performer this year, your agenda is clearly noted here.

SteBO
09-02-2011, 10:35 PM
I'd disagree and say that speaking in hypotheticals isn't necessary here. It just allows us to tip-toe around the facts, and the numbers presented over the 2011 playoffs. What happened happened. I'll entertain it because I think your inquiry is an honest one.

-- Had the Mavs lost, Dirks playoff performance would not have received as much praise. I estimate that he would have gotten a similar wrap as to what he has gotten in years past (Can't get it done, chokes under pressure). I'd argue he would have gotten more credit than in years past (for dominating and leading a sweep vs the defending back-to-back champions), but the same over-arching theme would be there- can't get it done over four best of sevens.

--Had the Heat won, Wade would have most likely won Finals MVP. James would have been off the burner in several ways, considering the importance of team success (and his solid production in the regular season and first three rounds). But people would still have the window to criticize his performance during the finals, simply because of his drop off in production, efficiency, and points per game. It's not that James was overtly horrible in the Finals; the issue is that when people put him up on the pedestal with the GOATS, there lacks a consistency as all of them made their names on playing big when it matters most. We now have two separate examples of his production dropping off considerably come NBA finals time (I personally give him a pass for 2007, that team had no business being in the Finals and the fact that he got them there was remarkable).

And again SteBo, I never claim that winning is all that matters in regards to evaluating a player. I believe it to be a part of the equation (along with production, efficiency, peak, prime, longevity and influence). What I can't accept is not giving a teams best player his fair share of credit, or criticism depending on team results. I believe that the NBA superstar is in more control of his teams destiny than any other player in professional team sports, spare the NFL quarterback. That's why I think that winning and playing well during the most important part of the season is a key element in a players value; they are responsible for a lot of the teams overall success, or lack there of. You can't tell me that Jamess eight points on eleven FGAs during game four when the Heat had an opportunity to go up 3-1 fits within the stero-typical mold of a teams best player, or the leagues best player.

I don't want you to think I'm "throwing everything else out" in the overall evaluation. I'm not, James is a top three player, has been for half a decade (with several years being the clear cut #1, statistically, playoffs included). I'm just presenting the notion that our other options (Wade specifically) played bigger during the playoffs, and that should be considered, despite James regular season dominance.

I agree with your final paragraph/point too. The best player on a championship team does not automatically equate to being the best player in the league, nor was that ever one of my points. Clearly Thomas wasn't the best player in the league in '89 despite Detroit winning it all- plenty of examples like that. I'm also well aware of the depth of the Dallas team; their bench dropped 86 points in LAL during the close-out game four, that's deadly.

I'm just presenting the opinion that LBJ is not the 100% clear cut top player in the NBA, that he was outplayed by Wade during the playoffs (PER, TS%, WS/48) and that our other stars (Dirk, Howard, and Paul specifically) have produced numbers, and done things (defensive impact/legendary performances on the biggest stages) that puts them into the discussion.
Oh, he isn't as clear cut as he used to be for sure. The last couple of paragraphs was more of a rant towards all the people that say Dirk should be considered the best player in the league since he won the title as the clear cut #1. I said I hated hypotheticals because I like to stick to reality, but I brought it up anyway just to try and show how people can be inconsistent with how they evaluate guys. Playing well in the biggest moment of the season is an important factor to a players value, but not the overriding one which some seem to think is. That part, I strongly disagree with because it makes no sense. It only does imo when we compare teams. I think we somewhat agreed here, but I didn't know it until you responded to me. Glad we were able to come to same terms for the most part.

JordansBulls
09-02-2011, 10:36 PM
lebrons finals performance was much better than wades ECF finals appearance but wade gets the excuse and can be considered while lebron can't even be in the discussion despite being the 2nd best playoff performer this year, your agenda is clearly noted here.

No Lebron's finals was not better than Wade's ECF. Lebron was 3rd on his team in scoring in the finals and 5th overall in the finals and got outplayed and outscored by Jason Freaking Terry and locked up by Shawn Marion. Dude had 8 points in a finals game at that against a team that was not a great defensive team.

No one has came here and even shown why Lebron is the best, they just say it because of his talent. I base stuff on how the players play when they have HCA and when they don't and make an evaluation from there, whereas whenever Lebron loses there is an excuse each and every time even with a proven winner on his team.

SteBO
09-02-2011, 10:41 PM
No Lebron's finals was not better than Wade's ECF. Lebron was 3rd on his team in scoring in the finals and 5th overall in the finals and got outplayed and outscored by Jason Freaking Terry and locked up by Shawn Marion. Dude had 8 points in a finals game at that against a team that was not a great defensive team.

No one has came here and even shown why Lebron is the best, they just say it because of his talent. I base stuff on how the players play when they have HCA and when they don't and make an evaluation from there, whereas whenever Lebron loses there is an excuse each and every time even with a proven winner on his team.
JB, you cannot be serious with this. This is an aspect you use when comparing teams, not players. What does HCA have to with the player? Even it did, it has little to no effect on a players' performance. LeBron all year long was a better road player than home player, so? What does that prove? And again, it was one series. Granted it was the most important one, but there are other series' that needed to be played.

Bruno
09-02-2011, 10:42 PM
lebrons finals performance was much better than wades ECF finals appearance but wade gets the excuse and can be considered while lebron can't even be in the discussion despite being the 2nd best playoff performer this year, your agenda is clearly noted here.

LBJ wasn't the second best playoff performer this year, statically speaking. He trailed Wade in WS/48, TS% and PER. He trailed Dirk in PER, TS%, WS/48. He trailed Paul in PER, TS%, WS/48 and WS. He trailed Howard in PER, TS% of WS/48.

I personally only put worth into Wade and Dirks higher production and efficacy. One series just isn't big enough of a sample size to build a solid argument from (IMO four is).

LBJ should be a leading candidate in the discussion. I just don't think it's as lopsided as many other posters do. A lot of people take LBJ here, he's running away with this poll.

JordansBulls
09-02-2011, 10:47 PM
JB, you cannot be serious with this. All these things are aspects you use when comparing teams, not players. What does HCA have to with the player? Even it did, it has little to no effect on a players' performance. LeBron all year long was a better road player than home player, so? What does that prove? And again, it was one series. Granted it was the most important one, but there are other series' that needed to be played.

HCA matters a lot. This is the 3rd year in a row Lebron lost with HCA.

Here is a comparison:

Record with HCA for each


vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Lebron: 1-3 (25%)/ 8-0 (100%)
Wade: 1-2 (33%)/ 6-0 (100%)


Lebron 9-3 in series with HCA = 75%
Wade 7-2 in series with HCA = 78%





vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Garnett: 3-2 (60%) /5-0 (100%)
Dirk: 6-2 (75%) /2-1 (67%)
Malone: 4-4 (50%) /8-2 (80%)
Barkley: 2-1 (67%) /8-1 (89%)



Total for Garnett is 8-2 in series with HCA
Total for Dirk is 8-3 in series with HCA


Lebron/Wade beat up on teams that are 50 wins and less and then proceed to lose when playing teams that won 50+ games.

naps
09-02-2011, 10:52 PM
Reading JB's posts makes me think like it's a "Who's the #1 team in the league?" thread...wait, it's not :rolleyes:

SteBO
09-02-2011, 10:53 PM
HCA matters a lot. This is the 3rd year in a row Lebron lost with HCA.

Here is a comparison:

Record with HCA for each


vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Lebron: 1-3 (25%)/ 8-0 (100%)
Wade: 1-2 (33%)/ 6-0 (100%)


Lebron 9-3 in series with HCA = 75%
Wade 7-2 in series with HCA = 78%





vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Garnett: 3-2 (60%) /5-0 (100%)
Dirk: 6-2 (75%) /2-1 (67%)
Malone: 4-4 (50%) /8-2 (80%)
Barkley: 2-1 (67%) /8-1 (89%)



Total for Garnett is 8-2 in series with HCA
Total for Dirk is 8-3 in series with HCA


Lebron/Wade beat up on teams that are 50 wins and less and then proceed to lose when playing teams that won 50+ games.
HCA does matter, to the team. I could even argue that HCA means little in that regard as well considering you don't see many #1 seeds(conference or entire league) get to the Finals let alone win it all(last year being one example). But last I checked we were comparing players, not teams.

Bruno
09-02-2011, 10:53 PM
Oh, he isn't as clear cut as he used to be for sure. The last couple of paragraphs was more of a rant towards all the people that say Dirk should be considered the best player in the league since he won the title as the clear cut #1. I said I hated hypotheticals because I like to stick to reality, but I brought it up anyway just to try and show how people can be inconsistent with how they evaluate guys. Playing well in the biggest moment of the season is an important factor to a players value, but not the overriding one which some seem to think is. That part, I strongly disagree with because it makes no sense. It only does imo when we compare teams. I think we somewhat agreed here, but I didn't know it until you responded to me. Glad we were able to come to same terms for the most part.

Totally.

I think that Dirk has a fine argument as the best offensive player in the NBA. He is amazingly efficient, has an un-guardable shot, forces great defenses to collapse, and can find the open man. I hesitate to say Dirk is the greatest overall because of his defense. His defense isn't terrible, and I think it's gotten better over the years. But there's no way he's on the same level defensively as any of our other four options.

I think the same way you do in regards to people over-rating the finals, but in regards to people over-rating the regular season. We all value things differently, and it's all good. I just don't think people should be told they are "ignorant" or "haters" if they don't take LBJ here; there's a fine argument against him.

juno10
09-02-2011, 10:58 PM
No Lebron's finals was not better than Wade's ECF. Lebron was 3rd on his team in scoring in the finals and 5th overall in the finals and got outplayed and outscored by Jason Freaking Terry and locked up by Shawn Marion. Dude had 8 points in a finals game at that against a team that was not a great defensive team.

No one has came here and even shown why Lebron is the best, they just say it because of his talent. I base stuff on how the players play when they have HCA and when they don't and make an evaluation from there, whereas whenever Lebron loses there is an excuse each and every time even with a proven winner on his team.

their numbers were close with lebron avg more boards and assit and shooting a better percentage.

SteBO
09-02-2011, 10:59 PM
Totally.

I think that Dirk has a fine argument as the best offensive player in the NBA. He is amazingly efficient, has an un-guardable shot, forces great defenses to collapse, and can find the open man. I hesitate to say Dirk is the greatest overall because of his defense. His defense isn't terrible, and I think it's gotten better over the years. But there's no way he's on the same level defensively as any of our other four options.

I think the same way you do in regards to people over-rating the finals, but in regards to people over-rating the regular season. We all value things differently, and it's all good. I just don't think people should be told they are "ignorant" or "haters" if they don't take LBJ here; there's a fine argument against him.
Yeah there are arguments against him. Dirk beats LeBron in overall shooting and efficiency, FT%, and offensive production. I do believe he's a better scorer than LeBron and defensively he isn't bad at all anymore. I also mentioned that Dwight has a good case for #1 because he can dominate both ends on a nightly basis. Unfortunately his support stunk last year.

juno10
09-02-2011, 11:00 PM
i just don't get how a 7 footer that averages only 7 boards a game can be considered the best individual player in the game.

LakersMaster24
09-02-2011, 11:02 PM
Went with Howard. (The only reason the Magic made the playoffs, even if they did they wouldnt be higher than 7th seed)

Last year, it was Lebron and it wasnt even a question. This year is different. His Finals performance is not something the best player in the league would do.

Avenged
09-02-2011, 11:08 PM
Dirk is great and all but jumping up to #1 because his team won a championship? I have no problem with him being in the lower part of the top 5 though. There are just other players who dominate on both ends of the floor.

If we're basing this off of postseason performance only, sure, Dirk gets my vote.

edit: sad to see cp3 with no votes.. If the guy had a top contending team, he'd be getting my vote for #1.

Bruno
09-02-2011, 11:17 PM
Yeah there are arguments against him. Dirk beats LeBron in overall shooting and efficiency, FT%, and offensive production. I do believe he's a better scorer than LeBron and defensively he isn't bad at all anymore. I also mentioned that Dwight has a good case for #1 because he can dominate both ends on a nightly basis. Unfortunately his support stunk last year.

Dude, go look at Richardson and Turks numbers from the first round. Truly :facepalm: worthy.

SteBO
09-02-2011, 11:34 PM
Dude, go look at Richardson and Turks numbers from the first round. Truly :facepalm: worthy.
I just did, and they were laughable. Here I thought bringing Turkoglu back into the system SVG runs would better the Magic, but boy was I off there. I also though J-Rich would be an improvement because Vince Carter wasn't as consistent a deep threat as Richardson. Both were awful in Round 1. "Disgraceful" is probably the better word. Poor Dwight. I'm sure he felt like punching something after playing his *** off every night. Didn't he have 45 points and 19 rebounds in Game 1 in that series but still lost because noone outside Jameer Nelson decided to show up?

Bruno
09-02-2011, 11:38 PM
Dirk is great and all but jumping up to #1 because his team won a championship? I have no problem with him being in the lower part of the top 5 though. There are just other players who dominate on both ends of the floor.

If we're basing this off of postseason performance only, sure, Dirk gets my vote.

edit: sad to see cp3 with no votes.. If the guy had a top contending team, he'd be getting my vote for #1.

Do you think a part of his climb to the top of the player rankings goes beyond just his great performance and team results? Bryant, James, and Wade (The consensus top three players for the past several years, right) all had down years statistically and were all upset in the playoffs.

IMO a big part of Dirks praise has to do with the single season regression of Kobe, Wade and LBJ. All were upset in the playoffs, all dropped off statistically, and all lost to Dirk and the Mavs. Then you got Howard and Cp3 getting first round upsets? That's enough to push Dirk to the top in some ways. Dirk was also right there statically. He competes statistically and got the finals MVP.

Paul dismantled the Lakers.

ChiSox219
09-02-2011, 11:47 PM
11 of the 12 active Orlando Magic could not play defense and that unit managed to finish 3rd defensively. He's okay offensively too, .616TS%, 27.2 USG, 113 ortg

I think there was an argument before the season got going but I think at this point it is certainly Dwight Howard.

KingPosey
09-03-2011, 12:35 AM
Its not because im a bandwagon hater, I truly, genuinely do not believe LBJ is the best player in the game. Most physically gifted, sure. Best ability to fill up a stat sheet, sure. Best player? No way, and he isnt proving me wrong as time goes on.

ewmania
09-03-2011, 12:42 AM
no derrick rose on the list. thats funny lol... I mean i wasnt going to pick rose but he deserves to be included

anyway , its either bron or howard... tough decision but im going with superman

THE GIPPER
09-03-2011, 02:06 AM
Do you think a part of his climb to the top of the player rankings goes beyond just his great performance and team results? Bryant, James, and Wade (The consensus top three players for the past several years, right) all had down years statistically and were all upset in the playoffs.

IMO a big part of Dirks praise has to do with the single season regression of Kobe, Wade and LBJ. All were upset in the playoffs, all dropped off statistically, and all lost to Dirk and the Mavs. Then you got Howard and Cp3 getting first round upsets? That's enough to push Dirk to the top in some ways. Dirk was also right there statically. He competes statistically and got the finals MVP.

Paul dismantled the Lakers.

CP3 and the hornets losing in the first round to the lakers was in no way upset. The lakers were expeted to win and did despite CP3 being the best player in that series.

Bruno
09-03-2011, 02:24 AM
CP3 and the hornets losing in the first round to the lakers was in no way upset. The lakers were expeted to win and did despite CP3 being the best player in that series.

Totally.

SportsFanatic10
09-03-2011, 02:40 AM
no derrick rose on the list. thats funny lol... I mean i wasnt going to pick rose but he deserves to be included
anyway , its either bron or howard... tough decision but im going with superman

if you're gonna include rose you have to include kobe, durant, melo, dwill...and so on since rose is not clearly above them and imo below them.

SportsFanatic10
09-03-2011, 02:42 AM
lebrons finals performance was much better than wades ECF finals appearance but wade gets the excuse and can be considered while lebron can't even be in the discussion despite being the 2nd best playoff performer this year, your agenda is clearly noted here.

not true at all. wade came through late in games with big plays weather it be blocking shots or making a jumper after missing his shots most of the game. he made game changing plays in the 4th/OT and lebron didn't do that at all in the finals.

SportsFanatic10
09-03-2011, 02:43 AM
oh and my real vote is lebron with howard next but seeing dirk having more votes then wade just seemed so ridiculous i had to vote for him to tie it at 5 votes each.

Antipod
09-03-2011, 02:58 AM
`Bron

LBJ6
09-03-2011, 03:25 AM
Lebron easily.

iam brett favre
09-03-2011, 03:26 AM
I expected to see Kendrick Perkins on this list

Raph12
09-03-2011, 03:35 AM
It really depends on how you're defining the word"best";

Overall production/efficiency: Lebron James
Overall impact on the game: Dwight Howard

You can't go wrong either way IMO...

Niro
09-03-2011, 05:00 AM
Dirk Nowitzki in a landslide. Mavs were 2-7 without him. Was the only allstar on his team. Beat the 2x defending champions who had a higher SRS rating, better offensive and defense and beat a team that had 3 allstars with two of which are considered routinely top 3 in the league and did so without HCA.



Dallas
57-25,
Coach: Rick Carlisle (57-25)

PTS/G: 100.2 (11th of 30) ? Opp PTS/G: 96.0 (10th of 30)
SRS: 4.41 (8th of 30) ? Pace: 91.3 (18th of 30)
Off Rtg: 109.7 (8th of 30) ? Def Rtg: 105.0 (8th of 30)
Expected W-L: 53-29 (8th of 30)



Miami
58-24, 1st in NBA Southeast Division (Schedule and Results)
Coach: Erik Spoelstra (58-24)

PTS/G: 102.1 (8th of 30) ? Opp PTS/G: 94.6 (6th of 30)
SRS: 6.76 (1st of 30) ? Pace: 90.9 (20th of 30)
Off Rtg: 111.7 (3rd of 30) ? Def Rtg: 103.5 (5th of 30)
Expected W-L: 61-21 (2nd of 30)


Miami had a higher SRS rating, Allowed Fewer PPG, Averaged more PPG, had a higher Expected W-L, had a higher Offensive and Defensive Rating and the Mavs were missing 3 players in Caron Butler, Rodrigue Beaubois and Brendan Haywood in the Finals.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/mavericks-heat


Dirk Nowitzki and Mavs become first team in NBA history

To defeat three teams that each had a

ALL-NBA 1st team player and ALL-NBA 2nd team player:

Kobe and Gasol
Durant and Westbrook
LeBron and Wade


So yeah Dirk was clearly the best last year, not to mention that the other guys lost with HCA.


Also even though I wouldn't vote for Rose here, as I have been saying Dirk has been the best, I find it hilarious that a guy who finished 13th in MVP voting in the league is in the poll when he lost in round 1 while a guy who actually won MVP and got to the conference finals as the only star on his team is not even in the poll.


And yet a guy who got outscored by Jason Terry in the finals is leading the poll.:silly:


Example: It's like taking a class and do you well all the way to the final exam. Well in school the final exam is worth more than anything else you did all semester in most classes. Same should be the case here.

okay if you say post season makes dirk the best player then d rose shouldnt be in anybodys top 20

knightstemplar
09-03-2011, 06:45 AM
how did kobe win in 2009 and 2010 ?

cause he was the best player

knightstemplar
09-03-2011, 06:49 AM
did people not watch the 2011 Finals? lol

JordansBulls
09-03-2011, 08:26 AM
okay if you say post season makes dirk the best player then d rose shouldnt be in anybodys top 20

Except he led his team in PER, WS and Scoring.

JordansBulls
09-03-2011, 08:32 AM
HCA does matter, to the team. I could even argue that HCA means little in that regard as well considering you don't see many #1 seeds(conference or entire league) get to the Finals let alone win it all(last year being one example). But last I checked we were comparing players, not teams.

No it matters to the superstar player as well. You trying to tell me that a team with HCA is not supposed to win???

Here is the record of the top 10 players all time with HCA and vs 50+ win teams and vs teams that won less than 50 games.


Jordan's teams had HCA in 24 playoff series throughout his career, and they were 24-0 in all of them. Thats not an achievement? His teams were the favorites 24 times, and never once did they get upset.
You can't say that for pretty much any other superstar that has played in that many series.



vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Jordan: 14-0 (100%)/ 10-0 (100%)
Jabbar: 11-3 (79%)/ 23-2 (92%)
Russell: 10-0 (100%)/ 12-1 (92%)
Wilt: 4-3 (57%)/ 9-2 (82%)
Magic: 9-2 (82%)/ 20-1 (95%)
Bird: 10-6 (63%)/ 14-1 (93%)
Olajuwon: 4-0 (100%)/ 5-2 (71%)
Shaq: 11-3 (79%)/ 13-2 (87%)
Duncan: 13-4 (76%)/ 8-1 (100%)
Kobe: 18-2(90%)/ 6-0(100%)
Lebron: 1-3(25)/ 8-0 (100%)
Wade: 1-2(33%)/ 6-0(100%)

THE GIPPER
09-03-2011, 10:44 AM
JB your logic is just so strange to me. Basically you evaluate a player and decide his rank almost solely based on his record while having HCA? And yet you still voted for Dirk??? See Dirk and the mavs in the 07 playoffs.

juno10
09-03-2011, 11:23 AM
not true at all. wade came through late in games with big plays weather it be blocking shots or making a jumper after missing his shots most of the game. he made game changing plays in the 4th/OT and lebron didn't do that at all in the finals.

he did in game 1 and game 3 he played great defense while setting up the game winner in the fourth. wade didn't take over fourths in the finals like lebron did in the ecf. wade choked in some ways to in the nba finasl i believe it was game 4 where he turned the ball over twice in the fourth which were the most idiotic turnobers skipp bayless touched on it aswell. when lebron is playing well his impact on the game is much greater than wades.

LakersIn5
09-03-2011, 11:46 AM
LEBoBOBRON!

ragee
09-03-2011, 11:51 AM
Minus the Finals performance, I would probably vote for Lebron even if I hate the guy but choking on the most important games should really count against him... There is no way the best player in the league will have a performance like that...

I'll go with Dwight then Dirk then Lebron... If Dwight was in Lebron's place, I don't know if my Mavs could have beaten them... The only reason he is had an early exit was because his teammates are scrubs!

NBA-GMaster
09-03-2011, 12:31 PM
My top 5:
1. LeBron
2. Dwight
3. Dwyane
4. Rose
5. Dirk

pd1dish
09-03-2011, 12:57 PM
Lebron. no matter how much you dislike Lebron (i have hated that guy ever since he entered the league), you are delusional if you dont think hes the best player in the league.

Mile High Champ
09-03-2011, 01:22 PM
Not practical. Imagine if you did that with all players all time. That you only took the best PG, Best SG, Best SF, Best PF and Best C. You essentially would leave out 4 centers who are in the conversation when all 5 (Kareem, Russell, Hakeem, Wilt and Shaq) all deserve to be in a poll.

Nope, it actually works just fine in this case. Why should I include Rose, Durant, Deron & Kobe in this first poll? The 5 players in the poll were the best at their position. I agree that the logic is not the best as we go on but for the first poll it makes complete sense. Rose, Kobe etc should not get a single vote in this first poll because other players at their position were voted higher than them.

nycericanguy
09-03-2011, 01:27 PM
Some people are just so blinded by their hatred... Voted Lebron, clearly the best in the NBA, then I'm going with Dwight... that's an obvious 1-2

People who say Dirk... Look he had a great run and he had a great finals.. But please, it's a TEAM game, just because his TEAM won doesn't mean he's the best in the NBA. Let's not forget that if it wasn't for Terry and everyone else Dirk wouldn't even be in the discussion for best in the nba. Dirk is a great player, one of the greatest.. Everyone was on his back for not winning a championship and finally he pulled through.. But that doesn't make him the best in the NBA.. It's a TEAM sport.. how can say i this more clearly.... TEAM!!! Lebron is the most talented and dominating player in the NBA.. Just ask the Cavs, they went from being the best to the worst

Agreed, I wouldn't call Dirk the best player in the NBA just because his team won the title last year.

One playoff does not make or break a player.

I find it funny that Dirk is all of a sudden the best PF and now people even saying he's the best player in the NBA, yet for years he wasn't even considered a top 3 or 5 player.

I'm sorry but 1 great playoff run doesn't change that.

nycericanguy
09-03-2011, 01:28 PM
Nah, I like it. If a player wasn't able to win the top spot at their position, then it doesn't make sense for them to be voted in as the best player in the league.

yea I like it too, and its a good way to weed out and make the list shorter.

JordansBulls
09-03-2011, 01:32 PM
JB your logic is just so strange to me. Basically you evaluate a player and decide his rank almost solely based on his record while having HCA? And yet you still voted for Dirk??? See Dirk and the mavs in the 07 playoffs.

Which means he wasn't the best player that year. What don't you get?
Dirk was the best player for the 2010-2011 season. So that means going into the next season he is the best player.

JordansBulls
09-03-2011, 01:34 PM
Nope, it actually works just fine in this case. Why should I include Rose, Durant, Deron & Kobe in this first poll? The 5 players in the poll were the best at their position. I agree that the logic is not the best as we go on but for the first poll it makes complete sense. Rose, Kobe etc should not get a single vote in this first poll because other players at their position were voted higher than them.

Rose won League MVP, why the hell would not a guy who won MVP be in the poll? Chris Paul finished 13th in MVP voting and lost in round 1.

faze38
09-03-2011, 01:36 PM
Gotta go with Dwight because of his improved offence. No player in the Nba can dominate on D like him and then drop 20 on u every night while also pulling down double digit boards and sending back a shot or two. These stats happen every game not just once in a while I mean thats just disgusting honestly.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-03-2011, 01:44 PM
Lebron has been the best for the last 3 years.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-03-2011, 01:44 PM
Rose won League MVP, why the hell would not a guy who won MVP be in the poll? Chris Paul finished 13th in MVP voting and lost in round 1.

He can't even win at his position. You want him to be included for the top player in the whole league?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
09-03-2011, 02:14 PM
nowitzki easily.

Baller1
09-03-2011, 02:14 PM
1. Lebron
2. Wade
3. Dwight
4. Durant
5. Dirk
6. CP3
7. Kobe
8. D-Will

There's a lot of players who have a case for the last two spots in the top ten.

Sadds The Gr8
09-03-2011, 02:18 PM
Rose won League MVP, why the hell would not a guy who won MVP be in the poll? Chris Paul finished 13th in MVP voting and lost in round 1.

it's not like he'd have a chance at winning anyways

tredigs
09-03-2011, 02:42 PM
Rose won League MVP, why the hell would not a guy who won MVP be in the poll? Chris Paul finished 13th in MVP voting and lost in round 1.

While putting up roughly 22/7/12 with a 67% TS%, 126 Offensive rating, 28.9 PER (led playoffs), .242 WinShare/48 (led playoffs) and had two of the best playoff performances in recent memory in their two wins. He is the Hornets. Can't expect a team like that to take out the Lakers. D. Rose doesn't sniff CP3's impact or command on the court, and winning MVP has very little correlation to who the actual best player in the game is (apparently). Durant is unarguably (if we're maintaining some semblance of reality) a better, more impactful player than Rose. He isn't on the poll either. Let's move past that.

Edit:

Best player in the game is Lebron James. D. Howard's holdup on the #1 slot is mental.

And if two players should be added to the poll, it would be the reigning PSD #1 Kobe, and KD. Then we can get into the Rose/D. Williams'/Melo/Westbrook's. The 2nd tier guys.

xxplayerxx23
09-03-2011, 02:44 PM
Durant isnt even in the poll why? Durant is 22 and is already Up there, I think in the next year or 2 he will be number 1 For now Lebron, or Howard, Ill go lebron

Avenged
09-03-2011, 02:51 PM
Do you think a part of his climb to the top of the player rankings goes beyond just his great performance and team results? Bryant, James, and Wade (The consensus top three players for the past several years, right) all had down years statistically and were all upset in the playoffs.

IMO a big part of Dirks praise has to do with the single season regression of Kobe, Wade and LBJ. All were upset in the playoffs, all dropped off statistically, and all lost to Dirk and the Mavs. Then you got Howard and Cp3 getting first round upsets? That's enough to push Dirk to the top in some ways. Dirk was also right there statically. He competes statistically and got the finals MVP.

Paul dismantled the Lakers.

I think Dirk certainly went up player rankings, I'm one that does value winning but it certainly isn't the be all end all. Dirk winning a championship doesn't propel him to the top spot. He did improve in 10-11 as compared to his past 2 seasons after that, but playoff wise, he was on par with how he has always played. The only thing is that his teammates finally came through. They were just so complete top to bottom. They might not had another star but they had the depth from 1-5 that other teams couldn't match.

I mean look at his playoff advanced #'s, you can argue that his 08-09 and 09-10 numbers were better than his 10-11. Was he considered the best then? No. Lebron having a bad series doesn't really make him any less better.. It's just a small sample size, he choked in the biggest stage. I mean, we can just say Lebron is the best player aside from the Finals? :laugh2:

A reason why I don't have Lebron as the #1 anymore is exactly for that reason.. I think Dwight's impact on both sides of the floor propels him to the top. Yeah, he had an early playoff exit BUT he certainly doesn't have the team Lebron has, or Dirk.. or Kobe himself..

27 points on 63% shooting, 15 rebounds in the playoffs. 6 games is a small sample size so lets move on to his regular season: 22ppg on 59% shooting, and 14.1 rebounds. It's not like he isn't capable of putting up the #s he did in the playoffs as his reg. season proves. A PER of 26., TS% 61, superb defensively, and impacts both sides of the floor.



IMO there isn't a clear cut top player in the NBA. Several have fine arguments.

I agree with this. I don't think Dirk is the best player but JB has been consistent with his argument and some people just value 1 thing more than others. Some don't value stats as much, some don't value winning as much. Who's to say who's right and wrong?

IndiansFan337
09-03-2011, 02:56 PM
LeBron James, and it's not close.

tredigs
09-03-2011, 03:02 PM
Dirk falls short of #1 (or top 3) for two main reasons in my mind: He flat out is not a great defensive player. His lateral quickness is a joke and he just doesn't possess the athleticism to be elite on that end of the floor. He's become pretty good, but wouldn't crack any top 40 list on that end. That's huge. Also, facilitation. He's GREAT at maintaining composure in the block and keeping control of the ball (KD needs to learn from Dirk in that aspect), but the guy just isn't a dynamic passer at all. He'll make the simple kick out if it's there, but other than that he's rarely going to get his teammates any easy buckets.

You can argue that Lebron is top 5 in both those areas, definitely top 10. And he can match Dirk in pretty much any other aspect of the game. ...IE, he's a better player. You won't see Dirk man marking the quickest PG in the NBA after spending half the game in the block any time soon.

Dwight is too terrible of a passer, makes too many ill-advised turnovers and causes way too many dumb fouls (he admits that, too) to be considered the best in the game. He's dominant, but he's not a complete player. Lebron, D. Wade and Kobe are the complete players in the NBA. Kobe's starting to regress, and Wade is more inconsistent than 'Bron. Again, best player = LBJ.

DR_1
09-03-2011, 03:56 PM
More dumb polls

Anyway, here's my 5
Dirk
Rose
Dwight
LeBron
Durant/Kobe

DR_1
09-03-2011, 03:57 PM
:laugh: Paul is a choice? Excuse me, I just fell out of my chair from laughing

THE GIPPER
09-03-2011, 03:59 PM
Which means he wasn't the best player that year. What don't you get?
Dirk was the best player for the 2010-2011 season. So that means going into the next season he is the best player.

No he wasnt. 2010/2011 playoffs probably but if you look at the entire season no way.

naps
09-03-2011, 04:00 PM
We could have easily gone to #2 player in the league. It's like doing a who is the #1 of all time. The answer is obviously Jordan just like it's an obvious one here.

Sadds The Gr8
09-03-2011, 04:01 PM
More dumb polls

Anyway, here's my 5
Dirk
Rose
Dwight
LeBron
Durant/Kobe

:laugh: only thing dumb in this thread is your list.

DR_1
09-03-2011, 04:02 PM
Wow, people really forgot what Rose did after so short a time :facepalm:

naps
09-03-2011, 04:03 PM
No he wasnt. 2010/2011 playoffs probably but if you look at the entire season no way.

The thing is Dirk isn't a different player than he was in May. He's the same player. Nobody considered him in the top 5 till that point. Now all of a sudden he's the best according to some people because he won it all even after having a miserable finals efficiency-wise (42% FG). Nobody would have remembered his season if the Mavs lost. Voting for Dirk as #1 is a pure joke.

THE GIPPER
09-03-2011, 04:04 PM
:laugh: only thing dumb in this thread is your list.

lol this

Sadds The Gr8
09-03-2011, 04:04 PM
Wow, people really forgot what Rose did after so short a time :facepalm:

how the hell is Rose better than Lebron? don't even use Lebron's finals as an argument because Rose's ECF was 10x more despicable.

THE GIPPER
09-03-2011, 04:04 PM
The thing is Dirk isn't a different player than he was in May. He's the same player. Nobody considered him in the top 5 till that point. Now all of a sudden he's the best according to some people because he won it all even after having a miserable finals efficiency-wise (42% FG). Nobody would have remembered his season if the Mavs lost. Voting for Dirk as #1 is a pure joke.

agreed

DR_1
09-03-2011, 04:05 PM
While putting up roughly 22/7/12 with a 67% TS%, 126 Offensive rating, 28.9 PER (led playoffs), .242 WinShare/48 (led playoffs) and had two of the best playoff performances in recent memory in their two wins. He is the Hornets. Can't expect a team like that to take out the Lakers. D. Rose doesn't sniff CP3's impact or command on the court, and winning MVP has very little correlation to who the actual best player in the game is (apparently). Durant is unarguably (if we're maintaining some semblance of reality) a better, more impactful player than Rose. He isn't on the poll either. Let's move past that.

Edit:

Best player in the game is Lebron James. D. Howard's holdup on the #1 slot is mental.

And if two players should be added to the poll, it would be the reigning PSD #1 Kobe, and KD. Then we can get into the Rose/D. Williams'/Melo/Westbrook's. The 2nd tier guys.

Rose is the Bulls. If CP3 was the Hornets, then where were they in the 2nd round? On their couches watching Rose.

DR_1
09-03-2011, 04:07 PM
how the hell is Rose better than Lebron? don't even use Lebron's finals as an argument because Rose's ECF was 10x more despicable.

The Heat can win without LeBron, the Bulls can't win without Rose. It's that simple. And Rose's performance in the Playoffs was great for someone who was offensively playing 1-on-5

naps
09-03-2011, 04:07 PM
More dumb polls

Anyway, here's my 5
Dirk
Rose
Dwight
LeBron
Durant/Kobe



:laugh: Paul is a choice? Excuse me, I just fell out of my chair from laughing



Wow, people really forgot what Rose did after so short a time :facepalm:

:cry::cry::cry:















:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

DR_1
09-03-2011, 04:09 PM
The thing is Dirk isn't a different player than he was in May. He's the same player. Nobody considered him in the top 5 till that point. Now all of a sudden he's the best according to some people because he won it all even after having a miserable finals efficiency-wise (42% FG). Nobody would have remembered his season if the Mavs lost. Voting for Dirk as #1 is a pure joke.

Keep whining and making excuses. Dirk scored more 4th quarter points than both LeBron and Wade combined. And since he was the same player, as you say, he did that all season.

Sadds The Gr8
09-03-2011, 04:10 PM
Rose is the Bulls. If CP3 was the Hornets, then where were they in the 2nd round? On their couches watching Rose.

hypothetical, but I think the Bulls would've lost to the Lakers too. ur actin like he should've beaten the Lakers with his lackluster supporting cast, not to mention that CP3 was missing his best teammate David West

tredigs
09-03-2011, 04:12 PM
hypothetical, but I think the Bulls would've lost to the Lakers too. ur actin like he should've beaten the Lakers with his lackluster supporting cast, not to mention that CP3 was missing his best teammate David West

0% chance to have a rational argument on Rose with a kid from Chicago who's screen name is a tribute to his hero. Why bother.

Sadds The Gr8
09-03-2011, 04:13 PM
The Heat can win without LeBron, the Bulls can't win without Rose. It's that simple. And Rose's performance in the Playoffs was great for someone who was offensively playing 1-on-5
how do u know they can win without Lebron? and Rose wasn't even good in the playoffs his shooting %s were pretty terrible.

DR_1
09-03-2011, 04:13 PM
hypothetical, but I think the Bulls would've lost to the Lakers too. ur actin like he should've beaten the Lakers with his lackluster supporting cast, not to mention that CP3 was missing his best teammate David West

According to everyone's opinion on here, Rose's supporting cast is cr*p also

tredigs
09-03-2011, 04:15 PM
Bulls team + coach is great, with or without Rose. There is no comparison between the situations in Chicago and New Orleans.

Sadds The Gr8
09-03-2011, 04:15 PM
According to everyone's opinion on here, Rose's supporting cast is cr*p also

lolwut? #1 defensive team in the league, and Rose makes no impact defensively. sounds like a pretty solid cast to me.

Sadds The Gr8
09-03-2011, 04:18 PM
0% chance to have a rational argument on Rose with a kid from Chicago who's screen name is a tribute to his hero. Why bother.

lmao yea. it's been awhile since i argued with a Rose homer.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-03-2011, 04:20 PM
The Heat can win without LeBron, the Bulls can't win without Rose. It's that simple. And Rose's performance in the Playoffs was great for someone who was offensively playing 1-on-5

You can't really expect for anyone to listen to you about Rose when your username is Drose.

JordansBulls
09-03-2011, 04:30 PM
Bulls team + coach is great, with or without Rose. There is no comparison between the situations in Chicago and New Orleans.

Disagree, he was the only allstar on that team. Not only that but no one predicted the Bulls to even be close to the #1 seed on PSD nor at ESPN

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=531447

2010-2011 Season


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=SummerForecast10-NBAChamps

1. LA Lakers - 52 votes
2. Miami Heat - 34 votes
3. Orlando Magic - 5 votes
4. Boston Celtics - 1 vote
5. Oklahoma City - 1 vote




http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=SummerForecast10-EastChamps


1. Miami - 66 votes
2. Orlando - 16 votes
3. Boston - 10 votes
4. Chicago - 1 vote




http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=SummerForecast10-EastStandings

CONF TEAM W L PCT 10 W 10 L 10 PCT
1
Miami Heat 61 21 .744 47 35 .573
Meet the Miami Globetrotters -- with the rest of the East playing the part of the Washington Generals. Our panel says the Super Friends should run circles around the rest of the conference, except perhaps for Orlando. Then again, Boston eliminated both D-Wade and King James a year ago, so that's why they play the postseason

2
Orlando Magic 56 26 .683 59 23 .720
The Magic stumbled vs. the Celtics in the East finals, but this is much the same team that won five series the past two postseasons. Orlando might have some magical maneuvers left, perhaps shipping out Vince Carter and/or finding a way to get Chris Paul. Until then, given Miami's summer, Orlando reverts to dangerous sleeper status.

3
Boston Celtics 51 31 .622 50 32 .610
The C's showed the regular season means nothing to them, beating the Cavs and Magic despite starting on the road, and almost doing the same to the Lakers. So it matters little that Boston is projected to win "only" 51 games, as long as it can get KG, Perk and the other Men in Green healthy for April, May and June.

4
Chicago Bulls 50 32 .610 41 41 .500
The East's second tier welcomes a new member: Chicago. The Bulls swung and missed on LeBron, D-Wade and CB4, but they did get Carlos Boozer, a deeper bench and a new coach, Tom Thibodeau. That and the sharp ascent of Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah mean that Chicago's sellout crowds finally have something to see.

JordansBulls
09-03-2011, 04:33 PM
While putting up roughly 22/7/12 with a 67% TS%, 126 Offensive rating, 28.9 PER (led playoffs), .242 WinShare/48 (led playoffs) and had two of the best playoff performances in recent memory in their two wins. He is the Hornets. Can't expect a team like that to take out the Lakers. D. Rose doesn't sniff CP3's impact or command on the court, and winning MVP has very little correlation to who the actual best player in the game is (apparently). Durant is unarguably (if we're maintaining some semblance of reality) a better, more impactful player than Rose. He isn't on the poll either. Let's move past that.

Edit:

Best player in the game is Lebron James. D. Howard's holdup on the #1 slot is mental.

And if two players should be added to the poll, it would be the reigning PSD #1 Kobe, and KD. Then we can get into the Rose/D. Williams'/Melo/Westbrook's. The 2nd tier guys.

Every PG kills the Lakers, that is no secret. And Durant has no business on the poll when even with another allstar can only get the #4 seed and goes 7 games against the #8 seed in the conference.
CP3 led the Hornets to the #7 seed and yet did not even lead his team in scoring on the season yet people say he carried them. Remember he actually scored 0 points in a game this year playing nearly 30+ minutes.
A guy who finished 13th in MVP voting is on the poll while getting the #7 seed and yet a guy with no other allstar on his team and led a team to the #1 seed and was MVP can't get on the poll. Great Logic!!!:crazy:

KnicksR4Real
09-03-2011, 04:36 PM
Howard should get it, but he never will...

juno10
09-03-2011, 04:40 PM
Every PG kills the Lakers, that is no secret. And Durant has no business on the poll when even with another allstar can only get the #4 seed and goes 7 games against the #8 seed in the conference.
CP3 led the Hornets to the #7 seed and yet did not even lead his team in scoring on the season yet people say he carried them. Remember he actually scored 0 points in a game this year playing nearly 30+ minutes.
A guy who finished 13th in MVP voting is on the poll while getting the #7 seed and yet a guy with no other allstar on his team and led a team to the #1 seed and was MVP can't get on the poll. Great Logic!!!:crazy:

you can when when that 8 seed took out the 1 seed and plays nothing like an 8 seed.

tredigs
09-03-2011, 04:54 PM
you can when when that 8 seed took out the 1 seed and plays nothing like an 8 seed.

JB, (like D. Rose when it comes to ...D. Rose) does not live in the same reality that you're alluding to here. And he likes things to be VERY simple in order to formulate an argument about a team and its role players. That's why you see all these comments about All-Star appearances, playoff seeding, media voting, etc. while taking none of it in context... linear thinker. All well and good, but there's no point in debating his reasoning with anything outside of what he's comfortable talking about. He's robotic in his method for evaluating players.

naps
09-03-2011, 05:08 PM
Keep whining and making excuses. Dirk scored more 4th quarter points than both LeBron and Wade combined. And since he was the same player, as you say, he did that all season.

Any statistical backup? I wanna see that.

And speaking of 4th quarter, how the **** Rose is your #2? His 4th quarter FG was something like 9.8% in the ECF. According to your logic (since that's what you are holding against others) Rose shouldn't even sniff top 20.

Cano4prez
09-03-2011, 05:18 PM
Every PG kills the Lakers, that is no secret. And Durant has no business on the poll when even with another allstar can only get the #4 seed and goes 7 games against the #8 seed in the conference.
CP3 led the Hornets to the #7 seed and yet did not even lead his team in scoring on the season yet people say he carried them. Remember he actually scored 0 points in a game this year playing nearly 30+ minutes.
A guy who finished 13th in MVP voting is on the poll while getting the #7 seed and yet a guy with no other allstar on his team and led a team to the #1 seed and was MVP can't get on the poll. Great Logic!!!:crazy:

But Rose lost with HCA!!! Rose couldn't do **** in the 4th quarter during the ECF he shouldn't even be top 15!!!

/derp

Majiik819
09-03-2011, 05:24 PM
No one has a bigger impact in the game than Lebron James or Dwight Howard. However, I voted for LeBron because his talent and skill set alone is so great.

juno10
09-03-2011, 05:38 PM
Any statistical backup? I wanna see that.

And speaking of 4th quarter, how the **** Rose is your #2? His 4th quarter FG was something like 9.8% in the ECF. According to your logic (since that's what you are holding against others) Rose shouldn't even sniff top 20.

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/7409/capturebqt.jpg

even better looking stat.

Avenged
09-03-2011, 05:41 PM
Howard should get it, but he never will...

I think he eventually will be considered the best at one point. It really all just depends on the team his F.O can provide. He didn't have the strongest team this past season and is mainly still considered top 3 in the game. With a strong supporting cast around him, there's no doubt in my mind he will be able to propel his team to a solid run in the playoffs thus him bumping up in player rankings. Maybe that's not the way it should be but it is.

If Lebron continues to fail in the biggest stage, and someone relatively close to him advances further, then their stock will rise and Lebron's will fall.

naps
09-03-2011, 05:42 PM
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/7409/capturebqt.jpg

even better looking stat.

Haha..I would make this a sig if that was someone closer to LeBron's stature. It's just not fair to make a sig with LeBron and Rose in the same sentence.

naps
09-03-2011, 05:47 PM
I think he eventually will be considered the best at one point. It really all just depends on the team his F.O can provide. He didn't have the strongest team this past season and is mainly still considered top 3 in the game. With a strong supporting cast around him, there's no doubt in my mind he will be able to propel his team to a solid run in the playoffs thus him bumping up in player rankings. Maybe that's not the way it should be but it is.

If Lebron continues to fail in the biggest stage, and someone relatively close to him advances further, then their stock will rise and Lebron's will fall.

Man, team success should even be counted in individual player comparisons. I just don't get it. But sadly, that's how it goes here. Let's see an example: If Miami Heat won the championship and Wade was the MVP, then he would probably have been voted a top 15 player of all time in those MHC threads. But since he fell short of 2 games he's was voted 11 steps farther.

DR_1
09-03-2011, 05:49 PM
Ok, you can't argue that my opinion is automatically pro-Bulls just cause my username is drose. My avatar is a freaking Lakers logo.

DR_1
09-03-2011, 05:50 PM
Haha..I would make this a sig if that was someone closer to LeBron's stature. It's just not fair to make a sig with LeBron and Rose in the same sentence.

Cause u know Rose will be better than LeBron.

naps
09-03-2011, 05:54 PM
Cause u know Rose will be better than LeBron.

Respond to my previous posts if you can. How the **** Rose is #2? Check out his 4th quarters and his record when he was guarded by LeBron.

And weather Rose becomes better than LeBron or not is a different topic. This thread is not about that. (Even though I could bet anything Rose won't be able to touch LeBron's planet, ever.)

DR_1
09-03-2011, 06:01 PM
Respond to my previous posts if you can. How the **** Rose is #2? Check out his 4th quarters and his record when he was guarded by LeBron.

And weather Rose becomes better than LeBron or not is a different topic. This thread is not about that. (Even though I could bet anything Rose won't be able to touch LeBron's planet, ever.)

Lebron's got it easy in the 4th, if he's not hitting shots Wade or Bosh will take them. Rose has no one even CLOSE to that level to pass off to, so he's forced to take more shots; of course that makes his stats look bad.

And I'll even sigbet you if you want. Rose will be widely considered a better basketball player than LeBron at the end of his career. Book it.

tredigs
09-03-2011, 06:05 PM
PSD "sig-bet" on the public's opinion on two players careers 15 years from now. Awesome.

naps
09-03-2011, 07:04 PM
Lebron's got it easy in the 4th, if he's not hitting shots Wade or Bosh will take them. Rose has no one even CLOSE to that level to pass off to, so he's forced to take more shots; of course that makes his stats look bad.


You think that's a good excuse for shooting this (http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/7409/capturebqt.jpg)? :facepalm:


And I'll even sigbet you if you want. Rose will be widely considered a better basketball player than LeBron at the end of his career. Book it.


How are you so certain besides you are being a blind homer? Rose does nothing better LeBron as of now. Nothing.

naps
09-03-2011, 07:05 PM
PSD "sig-bet" on the public's opinion on two players careers 15 years from now. Awesome.

Haha...I know right!

ewmania
09-03-2011, 07:14 PM
1. LeBron
2. Wade
3. D12
4. Kobe
5. Durant
6. Dirk
7.Paul
8. Rose
9. Melo
10.Stoudmeire
7.

just stop hahaa

when people say rondo is overrated i feel the sameway when they overrate this guy here

Swashcuff
09-03-2011, 07:21 PM
just stop hahaa

when people say rondo is overrated i feel the sameway when they overrate this guy here

I have Wade at 3 but tell us why do you think he's overrated if someone says he's #2?

SteBO
09-03-2011, 07:22 PM
I can't believe the complete turnaround I just read here. It's turned from a Dirk vs. LeBron argument, to a LeBron vs. Rose one. :laugh2:

SteBO
09-03-2011, 07:23 PM
just stop hahaa

when people say rondo is overrated i feel the sameway when they overrate this guy here
Now this makes me laugh. Wade is far from overrated and he has a very strong case for being #2. Care to explain why you feel otherwise? I'm interested in your evaluation of him.

naps
09-03-2011, 07:31 PM
just stop hahaa

when people say rondo is overrated i feel the sameway when they overrate this guy here

lolwut?

He does have a very very strong argument for #2. What the hell are you talking about here? Explain how he's overrated.

Avenged
09-03-2011, 07:34 PM
I can't believe the complete turnaround I just read here. It's turned from a Dirk vs. LeBron argument, to a LeBron vs. Rose one. :laugh2:

For real..

I would say Dwight is being underrated here by the lack of him being mentioned BUT he is 2nd to Lebron on the poll. :p

It would be cool for the Dwight supporters to join the discussion.

TheRunKiller
09-03-2011, 07:36 PM
some how i knew this would turn into something about rose, he's not even on the poll :facepalm:, To all heat fans we know what rose shot when lebron was guarding him so shut up about it already

SteBO
09-03-2011, 07:39 PM
For real..

I would say Dwight is being underrated here by the lack of him being mentioned BUT he is 2nd to Lebron on the poll. :p

It would be cool for the Dwight supporters to join the discussion.
Dwight deserves the #2 spot at least for sure and he's the only guy on here that I think has a legit argument for #1 now simply because of his dominance on both ends. Even LeBron doesn't quite have the defensive impact Dwight does for his team. It all really depends, and I don't it's fair to Dwight to fall lower than #2 just because he lost in the first round. Everyone outside of Dwight sucked not only to end the regular season, but it carried over to the playoffs as well. Dwights' numbers in that series were extraordinary and his support let him down big time. I mean, he had 45 points and 19 rebounds in a game and they still lost by 10 points. That says alot.

Avenged
09-03-2011, 07:41 PM
Man, team success should even be counted in individual player comparisons. I just don't get it. But sadly, that's how it goes here. Let's see an example: If Miami Heat won the championship and Wade was the MVP, then he would probably have been voted a top 15 player of all time in those MHC threads. But since he fell short of 2 games he's was voted 11 steps farther.

I think it should.. I just don't think the evaluation should have that high of an impact. If players like Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Bird etc.. never had the team success, it's highly unlikely they would be as high in all-time rankings as they are. There just needs to be a line for both.

For me, Lebron and Dwight are neck and neck. But I do admit that if Lebron would have had a solid Finals performance and won, he would have got my vote. This is mainly because I considered him to have the team to win it all. If Dwight had a team considered to win it all and failed, he wouldn't be my #1 as well. There just needs to be a line you don't cross in my opinion. Someone like Dirk who was 5-10, wins a championship, and now people think he's the best in the league? He's been the same player the past 3-4 seasons.

naps
09-03-2011, 07:43 PM
some how i knew this would turn into something about rose, he's not even on the poll :facepalm:, To all heat fans we know what rose shot when lebron was guarding him so shut up about it already

Apparently, this (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19088177&postcount=146) is where it started. May be you should blame that Rose homer before you blame the Heat fans.

TheRunKiller
09-03-2011, 07:45 PM
^ so he puts rose in the top 5 so you bring up his shooting percentage when lebron was guarding him?

naps
09-03-2011, 07:52 PM
^ so he puts rose in the top 5 so you bring up his shooting percentage when lebron was guarding him?

Yes, because that's what he was holding against LeBron in the finals. Why shouldn't it apply to Rose? Double standard much?

MTar786
09-03-2011, 08:18 PM
how is kobe not on this poll. he is still better than dirk and paul.. maybe not dwight, wade and lebron though

bovice163
09-03-2011, 08:27 PM
I think Bulls fans need to accept the fact that Rose isn't the best no matter his MVP season, and still has much to learn before we can put him in the top 5. Experience is really the only factor keeping him out of the list.

That being said:
1a. LBJ
1b. Dwight
3. Wade
4. Dirk
5. Kobe/CP3

JasonJohnHorn
09-03-2011, 08:47 PM
It is an insult to Kobe to not even have him on the short list. James is clearly the most talented player in the league, but Kobe is a close second, while Howard likely has the biggest impact on the court.

Dirk. Wade. CP3. They are all elite players, but they aren't in the conversation with James and Kobe, and none have as much impact on the court as Howard.

James's performance in the finals is the only thing weighing down his value in my eyes, and given the fact that he has posted huge performances in the post season in the past, I'd say the jury is still out on his "clutch" play.

But seriously. You can't have a conversation about the best player in the league without Kobe.

Swashcuff
09-03-2011, 08:57 PM
I think Bulls fans need to accept the fact that Rose isn't the best no matter his MVP season, and still has much to learn before we can put him in the top 5. Experience is really the only factor keeping him out of the list.

That being said:
1a. LBJ
1b. Dwight
3. Wade
4. Dirk
5. Kobe/CP3

:clap:

Great post.

tredigs
09-03-2011, 08:58 PM
It is an insult to Kobe to not even have him on the short list. James is clearly the most talented player in the league, but Kobe is a close second, while Howard likely has the biggest impact on the court.

Dirk. Wade. CP3. They are all elite players, but they aren't in the conversation with James and Kobe, and none have as much impact on the court as Howard.

James's performance in the finals is the only thing weighing down his value in my eyes, and given the fact that he has posted huge performances in the post season in the past, I'd say the jury is still out on his "clutch" play.

But seriously. You can't have a conversation about the best player in the league without Kobe.

While I agree he should be on the list, this is 2011, not 2004. Not only is D. Wade "in the conversation" with Kobe, he's a better, more efficient, more impactful player on both sides of the court. As for Cp3 and Dirk, both were without a doubt the best players on the court in their respective series against LA this postseason, and I'd take both of them over Kobe next season if given the opportunity. Durant as well. Rose V. Kobe at this point is a solid argument.

Swashcuff
09-03-2011, 09:02 PM
While I agree he should be on the list, this is 2011, not 2004. Not only is D. Wade "in the conversation" with Kobe, he's a better, more efficient, more impactful player on both sides of the court. As for Cp3 and Dirk, both were without a doubt the best players on the court in their respective series against LA this postseason, and I'd take both of them over Kobe next season if given the opportunity. Durant as well. Rose V. Kobe at this point is a solid argument.

And even so based solely on last season Rose has the statistical debate won (by the slightest of margins). Kobe however has the intangible worth and the experience in his department over Rose.

naps
09-03-2011, 09:26 PM
It is an insult to Kobe to not even have him on the short list. James is clearly the most talented player in the league, but Kobe is a close second, while Howard likely has the biggest impact on the court.

Dirk. Wade. CP3. They are all elite players, but they aren't in the conversation with James and Kobe, and none have as much impact on the court as Howard.

James's performance in the finals is the only thing weighing down his value in my eyes, and given the fact that he has posted huge performances in the post season in the past, I'd say the jury is still out on his "clutch" play.

But seriously. You can't have a conversation about the best player in the league without Kobe.

Tell me how Kobe is a better player than Wade at this point of his career. What does Kobe do better than Wade?

Khalifa21
09-03-2011, 10:29 PM
LeBron

calakers
09-03-2011, 10:38 PM
i gotta say bron cause hes just a beast he makes all the teams he plays with better. To bad bron cant be the best in the finals where it counts

JordansBulls
09-03-2011, 10:38 PM
But Rose lost with HCA!!! Rose couldn't do **** in the 4th quarter during the ECF he shouldn't even be top 15!!!

/derp

Only one player in that series averaged more ppg than Rose. While in the finals there were 4 players who averaged more ppg than Lebron and one of which came off the bench. That means he shouldn't even be in the top 50 in the league since a guy who came off the bench averaged more ppg than he did.:)

JordansBulls
09-03-2011, 10:40 PM
I think Bulls fans need to accept the fact that Rose isn't the best no matter his MVP season, and still has much to learn before we can put him in the top 5. Experience is really the only factor keeping him out of the list.

That being said:
1a. LBJ
1b. Dwight
3. Wade
4. Dirk
5. Kobe/CP3

The argument isn't that Rose is the best, the argument is that he should at least be in the poll when he won league mvp and led a team to the best record in the NBA. In fact when you look at NBA History, only the 1998 Bulls, 1998 Jazz had as many wins without having multiple allstars make the allstar team.

JordansBulls
09-03-2011, 10:42 PM
Any statistical backup? I wanna see that.

And speaking of 4th quarter, how the **** Rose is your #2? His 4th quarter FG was something like 9.8% in the ECF. According to your logic (since that's what you are holding against others) Rose shouldn't even sniff top 20.

This is what the 2nd and 3rd best players on the Bulls did.


Boozer
14.4 PPG / 10.2 RPG / 1.6 APG / 0.8 SPG / 0.8 BPG / 1.0 TPG / 40.7% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 77.4% FT


Noah
6.0 PPG / 9.8 RPG / 3.4 APG / 1.4 SPG / 1.8 BPG / 1.2 TPG / 31.7% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 50.0% FT

Swashcuff
09-03-2011, 10:44 PM
This is what the 2nd and 3rd best players on the Bulls did.


Boozer
14.4 PPG / 10.2 RPG / 1.6 APG / 0.8 SPG / 0.8 BPG / 1.0 TPG / 40.7% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 77.4% FT


Noah
6.0 PPG / 9.8 RPG / 3.4 APG / 1.4 SPG / 1.8 BPG / 1.2 TPG / 31.7% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 50.0% FT

Deng is/was better than both Noah and Boozer. He's the Bulls 2nd best player. Neither Noah nor Boozer is.

naps
09-03-2011, 10:50 PM
This is what the 2nd and 3rd best players on the Bulls did.


Boozer
14.4 PPG / 10.2 RPG / 1.6 APG / 0.8 SPG / 0.8 BPG / 1.0 TPG / 40.7% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 77.4% FT


Noah
6.0 PPG / 9.8 RPG / 3.4 APG / 1.4 SPG / 1.8 BPG / 1.2 TPG / 31.7% FG / 0.00% 3 PT FG / 50.0% FT

Deng was their 2nd best player.

And NO excuse can be made for a superstar to average single digit 4th quarter FG% in a big stage, besides pure failure to rise on the occasion.

TheRunKiller
09-03-2011, 10:55 PM
Deng was their 2nd best player.

And NO excuse can be made for a superstar to average single digit 4th quarter FG% in a big stage, besides pure failure to rise on the occasion.

That sounds a lot like Lebron James in the NBA finals, did you forget? do you want me to bring up his stats?

JordansBulls
09-03-2011, 11:00 PM
Deng was their 2nd best player.

And NO excuse can be made for a superstar to average single digit 4th quarter FG% in a big stage, besides pure failure to rise on the occasion.

No excuse can be made for a guy who is supposedly top 3 in the league who got outscored for an entire series by a guy coming off the bench.

SteBO
09-03-2011, 11:10 PM
That sounds a lot like Lebron James in the NBA finals, did you forget? do you want me to bring up his stats?


No excuse can be made for a guy who is supposedly top 3 in the league who got outscored for an entire series by a guy coming off the bench.
naps never made an excuse for LeBron, so what exactly are you getting at with this? And besides, one series no matter when it is, cannot overshadow what a player has done throughout an entire season. I'll take a 103 game sample size over a 6 game sample size, every time. Take Finals into account if you want, it needs to be, but it cannot be the overriding factor. That goes for Rose too. Therefore, LeBron is still the best player in the league, and will be going into next season. Period.

TheRunKiller
09-03-2011, 11:14 PM
naps never made an excuse for LeBron, so what exactly are you getting at with this? And besides, one series no matter when it is, cannot overshadow what a player has done throughout an entire season. I'll take a 103 game sample size over a 6 game sample size, every time. Take Finals into account if you want, it needs to be, but it cannot be the overriding factor. That goes for Rose too. Therefore, LeBron is still the best player in the league, and will be going into next season. Period.

That's true but why does everyone always bring up Rose shooting percentage every single time a rose thread comes up? they forgot all the things he's done this whole season and remember his 1 series vs the heat.

JordansBulls
09-03-2011, 11:16 PM
naps never made an excuse for LeBron, so what exactly are you getting at with this? And besides, one series no matter when it is, cannot overshadow what a player has done throughout an entire season. I'll take a 103 game sample size over a 6 game sample size, every time. Take Finals into account if you want, it needs to be, but it cannot be the overriding factor. That goes for Rose too. Therefore, LeBron is still the best player in the league, and will be going into next season. Period.

Actually Dirk Nowitzki is the best player in the league, he beat teams he shouldn't have beaten with arguably the 2nd best player on his team out and missing 2 more players. Not to mention he was the only star on his team and also his team had the lower SRS rating, worse defensive rating, worse offensive rating, worse point differential and had to win two series without HCA against teams that had a 1st team and 2nd team all nba member. Going into next season Dirk is the best he proved it even without having HCA against teams that were the top 2 challengers for the NBA title.

SteBO
09-03-2011, 11:25 PM
That's true but why does everyone always bring up Rose shooting percentage every single time a rose thread comes up? they forgot all the things he's done this whole season and remember his 1 series vs the heat.
It's because they like to become prisoners of the moment and throw everything else out the window. I just think it's silly. Rose's supporting cast wasn't crap, but it was offensively inept at times, leading Rose to take more than shots than he probably wanted to. Add in that he was being guarded by LeBron and was the main focus of Miami's team defense, it wears on a player. That happens, and Rose is still young. I agree with you, people need to lay off Rose with that stat and understand that his overall performance during the year was magnificent and is worthy of being considered an elite player. "Postseason" isn't everything. Same thing applies to Dirk. He's been the same player for years, and he should be considered best player in league because his team won the title? That's not how to effectively evaluate players.

naps
09-04-2011, 12:19 AM
That sounds a lot like Lebron James in the NBA finals, did you forget? do you want me to bring up his stats?

I never made any excuse for LeBron's finals. Be careful with what you say before you quote me.

The guy drose brought it up. He placed Rose at #2 and LeBron #4 and his arguments was LeBron didn't show up in the 4th quarter during the finals. That's when I had to bring in Rose's 4th quarter stats. (Not that I believe that should be the judgmental barometer for deciding the best player in the league.) You have to be consistent if you wanna be a rational poster. No double standards.

JordansBulls
09-04-2011, 12:33 AM
I never made any excuse for LeBron's finals. Be careful with what you say before you quote me.

The guy drose brought it up. He placed Rose at #2 and LeBron #4 and his arguments was LeBron didn't show up in the 4th quarter during the finals. That's when I had to bring in Rose's 4th quarter stats. (Not that I believe that should be the judgmental barometer for deciding the best player in the league.) You have to be consistent if you wanna be a rational poster. No double standards.

Rose wasn't the best there are 3 guys ahead of him at least in Dirk, Wade and Lebron and more than likely Dwight as well. But other than them, I don't have anyone else ahead of him after last year. CP3 has better advanced stats mainly because he doesn't take enough shots. If he did that team would have been where Denver was in round 1 at least.

juno10
09-04-2011, 12:41 AM
Rose wasn't the best there are 3 guys ahead of him at least in Dirk, Wade and Lebron and more than likely Dwight as well. But other than them, I don't have anyone else ahead of him after last year. CP3 has better advanced stats mainly because he doesn't take enough shots. If he did that team would have been where Denver was in round 1 at least.

durant?

SportsFanatic10
09-04-2011, 02:08 AM
rose is good but anyone putting him 4th or better in the league is insane. no way in hell he's better than lebron/howard/wade/dirk and i really don't think hes better than durant/kobe/melo/paul either.

JLynn943
09-04-2011, 02:39 AM
LeBron for sure. For all the Finals talk, just look at his dominance in the ECF, on top of the whole regular season. The only other person worthy of 1st place votes is Dwight Howard.

Htownballa1622
09-04-2011, 02:44 AM
Actually Dirk Nowitzki is the best player in the league, he beat teams he shouldn't have beaten with arguably the 2nd best player on his team out and missing 2 more players. Not to mention he was the only star on his team and also his team had the lower SRS rating, worse defensive rating, worse offensive rating, worse point differential and had to win two series without HCA against teams that had a 1st team and 2nd team all nba member. Going into next season Dirk is the best he proved it even without having HCA against teams that were the top 2 challengers for the NBA title.

I'm amazed everytime you post.

I have no idea why I'm trying to respond to you because your so defiant and caught up in the moment, but Dirk is not the best player in the league.

And before you respond with something like Hca stats, just plz don't. Look at what some logical posters have said backing up lebron.

The best player in the league is lebron with only dwight being in the conversation against him.

kozelkid
09-04-2011, 03:22 AM
How long til Bulls fans say "wait why is paul on the list and not Rose?"

:cricket:

SugeKnight
09-04-2011, 04:03 AM
I went with wade because he has the least amount of flaws in his game.

Lebron- no go to move/ failed in crunch time
Dwight- cant put the team on his back offensively/ foul trouble/ turnovers
CP3 & Dirk- Defense

SteBO
09-04-2011, 07:41 AM
rose is good but anyone putting him 4th or better in the league is insane. no way in hell he's better than lebron/howard/wade/dirk and i really don't think hes better than durant/kobe/melo/paul either.
Meh, I think Rose is better than Melo to be honest and Rose/Kobe is debatable in my eyes.

JordansBulls
09-04-2011, 10:43 AM
I'm amazed everytime you post.

I have no idea why I'm trying to respond to you because your so defiant and caught up in the moment, but Dirk is not the best player in the league.

And before you respond with something like Hca stats, just plz don't. Look at what some logical posters have said backing up lebron.

The best player in the league is lebron with only dwight being in the conversation against him.

Best Player in the league don't get outplayed and outscored by a guy coming off the bench. Which shows why he isn't the best player in the league.

Wade also had a higher PER, led in WS/PER 48 minutes on the team and in scoring. So Lebron wasn't even the best on his team in the playoffs.
Dirk was the best player on his team in the season and playoffs by far and beat teams that had a 1st team member and 2nd team all nba member in three series in a row.

SteBO
09-04-2011, 11:54 AM
Best Player in the league don't get outplayed and outscored by a guy coming off the bench. Which shows why he isn't the best player in the league.

Wade also had a higher PER, led in WS/PER 48 minutes on the team and in scoring. So Lebron wasn't even the best on his team in the playoffs.
Dirk was the best player on his team in the season and playoffs by far and beat teams that had a 1st team member and 2nd team all nba member in three series in a row.
Regular season counts too dude. You can't disregard that.

Htownballa1622
09-04-2011, 12:22 PM
Best Player in the league don't get outplayed and outscored by a guy coming off the bench. Which shows why he isn't the best player in the league.

Wade also had a higher PER, led in WS/PER 48 minutes on the team and in scoring. So Lebron wasn't even the best on his team in the playoffs.
Dirk was the best player on his team in the season and playoffs by far and beat teams that had a 1st team member and 2nd team all nba member in three series in a row.

I understand you think "best player in the league doesn't get outplayed and outscored by a guy coming off the bench" but we all saw how passive lebron was. He was outplayed. I agree and j.e.t played great but don't act like terry is just some bench scrub. Hes more than capable starting for more than half the teams in the nba.

You citing what best players supposedly dont do is strictly opinion based.
a best player (lebron in this case) might get outplayed in one(granted the biggest) series.
But I agree with the post above. You can't totally disregard regular season.

Dirks playoff run was phenomenal,but that doesn't propel him above Lebron.

Also the 1st/2nd team thing is impressive yet you fail to acknowledge the mavs had the most complete team 1-10 this year. That along with the personnel to disrupt the heat led to their victory.i see many times you say dirk was the only all star on his team against lbj,wade,and bosh but last time I checked a TEAM can beat 2 star players. See pistons lakers 04.

Teeboy1487
09-04-2011, 12:46 PM
Dwight. He's the best on both sides and is only improving. I would take Dwight out of this whole list.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 01:04 PM
Dwight. He's the best on both sides and is only improving. I would take Dwight out of this whole list.

Best on both sides? I think you should rephrase that. Don't you?

tredigs
09-04-2011, 01:09 PM
Dwight. He's the best on both sides and is only improving. I would take Dwight out of this whole list.

We're talking about the same Dwight Howard? The man struggles as much as anyone in the NBA to dribble, pass and shoot. He has the worst Ast/Turnover ratio in the NBA, and this is before we talk about his free throws.

Simma down now.

Anyway this vote's a complete blowout, 2-X is much more interesting.

Kashmir13579
09-04-2011, 02:09 PM
I'd be fine with Howard, James, or Paul at this spot.

Kashmir13579
09-04-2011, 02:12 PM
Meh, I think Rose is better than Melo to be honest and Rose/Kobe is debatable in my eyes.

Hes right there with 'Melo. They are both volume scorers, not as efficient as they should be, and don't do much else. I think they are both fringe top 10.

MJ-BULLS
09-04-2011, 02:39 PM
Lebron James is the best player in the NBA. Even though I voted for Howard. He comes in a close second.

naps
09-04-2011, 03:20 PM
Lebron James is the best player in the NBA. Even though I voted for Howard.

Thanks for being honest.

ryanj12344
09-04-2011, 03:28 PM
How is Kobe not even an option? If anything he is the clear number 1. What are you judging this on? Stats? Kobe averaged 25, 5 , 5 playing only 33 mins a game, the lowest minutes since his 2nd year in the league.

Lebron is a freak athlete but as far as basketball skills go, I would take kobe and wade over him anyday

tredigs
09-04-2011, 04:05 PM
^22 3 and 3 in the playoffs (35 mins) on poor efficiency while being outshined by both Cp3 and Dirk in their playoff matchups is the "clear best player in the NBA". Judging by your avatar I can tell you're a fanboy, but come back to reality. Kobe was not a top 5 player in the league.

SportsFanatic10
09-04-2011, 04:35 PM
Meh, I think Rose is better than Melo to be honest and Rose/Kobe is debatable in my eyes.

true melo/kobe can both be debated and i can understand some people thinking rose is better than them. personally i don't think rose is better but its close, i have rose as 8th in the league. the only players that he should never be put infront of right now though are lebron/howard/wade/dirk/durant/paul. i really can't see a reason for him to be ahead of any of those 6. but melo and kobe are debatable i agree, although moreso melo than kobe as kobe still as a bigger edge on rose i think.

Stuckey#3
09-04-2011, 04:49 PM
Dwight... because Durant is not on the board.

Swashcuff
09-04-2011, 04:53 PM
true melo/kobe can both be debated and i can understand some people thinking rose is better than them. personally i don't think rose is better but its close, i have rose as 8th in the league. the only players that he should never be put infront of right now though are lebron/howard/wade/dirk/durant/paul. i really can't see a reason for him to be ahead of any of those 6. but melo and kobe are debatable i agree, although moreso melo than kobe as kobe still as a bigger edge on rose i think.

Solid post.

SteBO
09-04-2011, 05:43 PM
true melo/kobe can both be debated and i can understand some people thinking rose is better than them. personally i don't think rose is better but its close, i have rose as 8th in the league. the only players that he should never be put infront of right now though are lebron/howard/wade/dirk/durant/paul. i really can't see a reason for him to be ahead of any of those 6. but melo and kobe are debatable i agree, although moreso melo than kobe as kobe still as a bigger edge on rose i think.
I can agree with this for sure. Solid post.

KingPosey
09-04-2011, 11:56 PM
Except he led his team in PER, WS and Scoring.

so what, he shot a lot, and shot horribly. He is gonna lead those categories.