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View Full Version : Garnett states it was his choice to not join the Lakers.



LakersMaster24
09-01-2011, 07:02 PM
http://www.danpatrick.com/2011/09/01/kevin-garnett-says-he-trusts-no-one-in-labor-negotiations/ < Audio Convo

http://www.iamagm.com/news/2011/09/01/kevin.garnett.claims.it.was.his.choice.not.be.trad ed.lakers.back.2007 < Written Convo

Pretty interesting stuff.

DR_1
09-01-2011, 07:10 PM
He always wanted somebody else, who better than Kobe? Kind of stupid.

KeepMonta#8
09-01-2011, 07:13 PM
He always wanted somebody else, who better than Kobe? Kind of stupid.

dwyane wade

Bruno
09-01-2011, 07:13 PM
Things were too uncertain in Lakerland during the summer of 2007. KG knew linking up with Pierce and Allen would be a certain, nearly guaranteed championship, and he was right. Boston presented a more stable, certain situation than what LA was offering. Had he gone to the Lakers, they probably would have won the title in 2008.

All in all, the C's got their first title in 22 years and the Lakers laded Gasol without giving up Odom or Bynum (they would have lost both in a trade for KG). Worked out great for both sides; I maintain that KGs decision determined the 2008 championship. LAL would have been in trouble in 2009 though, considering KGs injury.

beasted86
09-01-2011, 07:13 PM
He always wanted somebody else, who better than Kobe? Kind of stupid.

Hindsight is 20/20.

That situation Garnett talked about could have gone the way Deron/Sloan did in Utah.

Testaverde16
09-01-2011, 07:25 PM
not really how i remember it... the lakers didnt want to part with odom and bynum, the wolves were demanding both... didnt think it ever came down to kg having a say

Fresno
09-01-2011, 07:28 PM
not really how i remember it... the lakers didnt want to part with odom and bynum, the wolves were demanding both... didnt think it ever came down to kg having a say

They talked about the deal for at least a month. Im sure KG gave his input to LA about if he wanted to be there or not.

Remember it was KG who forced the trade to Boston after they got Ray Allen. Minnesota made the trade to give KG a chance at a title.

In return, Minnesota got back nothing since then considering they moved Al Jefferson for a Trade Exception. People dont even bring up the highway robbery that deal was in hindsight because Minnesota owed it to KG after all he did for that franchise. KG got his championship, and he'll probably retire a T'Wolf 3-4 years from now.

PurpleJesus
09-01-2011, 07:46 PM
I find it highly unlikely that he had a chance to go to the lakers, and he said no...he wanted out of minnesota to win a championship, and he would have had a great shot with LA...it still worked out for him though.

SteBO
09-01-2011, 07:49 PM
KG=1 title; Lakers=2 titles

I think it's safe to say this worked out for the better from the Lakers perspective. :) I do think the Lakers would've probably won at least a title anyway, but the thought of a team with Kobe and KG, and no Odom and Bynum with it with sorry bench play would me cringe if I were a Laker fan.

LakersMaster24
09-01-2011, 08:01 PM
dwyane wade

Back in 2007 Kobe was the best guard and arguably the best player.

llemon
09-01-2011, 08:08 PM
Players say a lot of things years after the facts. I'm not sure whether to believe them or not, so I choose not to believe them.

LAKERMANIA
09-01-2011, 08:32 PM
KG=1 title; Lakers=2 titles

I think it's safe to say this worked out for the better from the Lakers perspective. :) I do think the Lakers would've probably won at least a title anyway, but the thought of a team with Kobe and KG, and no Odom and Bynum with it with sorry bench play would me cringe if I were a Laker fan.

I agree, Minnesota at the time was asking for Odom AND Bynum, while we gave up players that weren't really helping us at the time for Gasol

NBA_Starter
09-01-2011, 08:53 PM
He talks all kind of ish, so who knows

Chronz
09-01-2011, 09:00 PM
So this is his first time admitting it? I thought he had implied it when he said he should have asked out a long time ago.

Hawkeye15
09-01-2011, 09:12 PM
4 things for me:

1- Why on earth would he not have gone to the Lakers with a prime Bryant?

2- Thank GOD he did not go to my least favorite team in all of sports

3- Lots of crap is said after the fact. He decided the Celtics, the mortal enemies of the Lakers. Of course he would say this now, he could never let Celtic nation he thought of becoming a Laker

4- As much as I hate the Lakers, a Bynum/picks/players package would have been better than what they got from the Celtics. Imagine Bynum/Love up front right now (yes, I still think the Wolves would have sucked with a super young Bynum and nobody else, and would have had the ability to get Love).

beasted86
09-01-2011, 09:22 PM
Back in 2007 Kobe was the best guard and arguably the best player.

Kobe lost in the 2004 Finals with one of the most stacked teams of all time 1-4 to the Pistons. Wade two years later with an older Shaq & Payton wreaked havoc against those same Pistons on his way to a title.

I'm not here to argue who is or was better... all I want is some consistent logic. One minute you say a guy is better because he's winning championships despite weaker stats, and others he's better just because? No consistency.

juno10
09-01-2011, 09:34 PM
this was the year kobe was demanding a trade right

shep33
09-01-2011, 09:38 PM
Kobe lost in the 2004 Finals with one of the most stacked teams of all time 1-4 to the Pistons. Wade two years later with an older Shaq & Payton wreaked havoc against those same Pistons on his way to a title.

I'm not here to argue who is or was better... all I want is some consistent logic. One minute you say a guy is better because he's winning championships despite weaker stats, and others he's better just because? No consistency.

Stacked teams in history? A battered Karl Malone in his final year, an aging Gary Payton, both of whom were well past their prime. Kobe going back and forth to court, Shaq severely overweight. No bench... that team was not that good, and probably had the worst chemistry problems for a team that made the Finals in history.

The Pistons in 2004 and those in 2006, were far different teams. Rasheed and Ben Wallace, Chauncey, and Rip Hamilton still in their prime. A heck of a wing defender in Tayshaun Prince. Now check out these role players:

-Mike James (yeah I know, but still a decent backup)
-Chucky Atkins
-Mehmet Okur
-Elden Campbell
-Corliss Williamson
-Lindsey Hunter
-Darvin Hamm

I know these guys don't look great on paper, but their productivity was actually very very good. But more so, that Lakers just weren't a team... too many distractions and no scoring help was their demise. Kobe played like crap in the Finals, Malone was injured, their bench did nothing, and Payton got absolutely abused by Billups...

SteBO
09-01-2011, 09:40 PM
this was the year kobe was demanding a trade right
I think so, yes. It was the offseason prior he demanded it. I ripped his decision to do that publicly then, but it ended up forcing the Lakers to get Pau Gasol without surrenduring Odom and Bynum, which led to two championships so in retrospect, good decision by Bryant there haha.

On that note, I think KG is crazy for turning down playing with a prime Kobe Bryant, but he ended up with a championship, so who cares?

Hawkeye15
09-01-2011, 09:40 PM
Is there any way I can convince you guys not to turn this into a "Kobe's support versus the world thread"?

Just talk about the OP

Chronz
09-01-2011, 09:42 PM
Things were too uncertain in Lakerland during the summer of 2007. KG knew linking up with Pierce and Allen would be a certain, nearly guaranteed championship, and he was right. Boston presented a more stable, certain situation than what LA was offering. Had he gone to the Lakers, they probably would have won the title in 2008.

All in all, the C's got their first title in 22 years and the Lakers laded Gasol without giving up Odom or Bynum (they would have lost both in a trade for KG). Worked out great for both sides; I maintain that KGs decision determined the 2008 championship. LAL would have been in trouble in 2009 though, considering KGs injury.
BS has touched on the matter once by reflecting on what if Boston had landed Gasol instead of KG for a cheaper price.

Think about the lineups

Fish
Kobe
Walton/Ariza (Injured for Playoffs)
KG
Stiff

vs
Rondo
Ray
Pierce
Al Jefferson
Gasol
Perkins
Posey
Brown/Cassell

Hawkeye15
09-01-2011, 09:43 PM
I think so, yes. It was the offseason prior he demanded it. I ripped his decision to do that publicly then, but it ended up forcing the Lakers to get Pau Gasol without surrenduring Odom and Bynum so in retrospect, which led to two championships so good decision by Bryant there haha.

On that note, I think KG is crazy for turning down playing with a prime Kobe Bryant, but he ended up with a championship, so who cares?

My hunch? KG was more than willing to go to the Lakers. He has owned a house in Malibu for years, loves LA, but the Wolves, when they were turned down with the Bynum/Odom/change, took Jefferson/Ryan Gomes/Sebastian Telfair/Gerald Green/Theo Ratliff/1st rounder.

The Wolves ended up probably taking a short list of his preferred teams, and made the deal they thought brought in the biggest haul

LakersMaster24
09-01-2011, 09:43 PM
Kobe lost in the 2004 Finals with one of the most stacked teams of all time 1-4 to the Pistons. Wade two years later with an older Shaq & Payton wreaked havoc against those same Pistons on his way to a title.

I'm not here to argue who is or was better... all I want is some consistent logic. One minute you say a guy is better because he's winning championships despite weaker stats, and others he's better just because? No consistency.

Just remember the NBA in 2007. How many NBA Analysts or even fans can you remember saying (Non-Heat fans) that Kobe is NOT the best Shooting Guard in the league.

You cant use one Finals performance to glorify a player.

SteBO
09-01-2011, 09:47 PM
Just remember the NBA in 2007. How many NBA Analysts or even fans (Non-Heat fans) that said Kobe is NOT the best Shooting Guard in the league.

You cant use one Finals performance to glorify a player.
I will remember this. You also can't use it to bring a player down and disregard what he's done prior.

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 10:14 PM
BS has touched on the matter once by reflecting on what if Boston had landed Gasol instead of KG for a cheaper price.

Think about the lineups

Fish
Kobe
Walton/Ariza (Injured for Playoffs)
KG
Stiff-MARC GASOL

vs
Rondo
Ray
Pierce
Al Jefferson
Gasol
Perkins
Posey
Brown/Cassell

fixed.

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 10:14 PM
am i the only one reading between the lines " kobe was fed u of lakers and phil and was asking out so he told me NOT to go there"?

beasted86
09-01-2011, 10:23 PM
@shep33

The problem is Wade won with an even older Shaq & Payton.. 2 years older in fact... and they went through that same 'very very good' Pistons team. Aside from that, the biggest problem I have is that the Lakers didn't lose anybody to add Malone & Payton. The only rotation guy not on the team from the previous year that they DID win was Horry & Fox. Fox was injured and sucked in his final year, so they didn't lose anything from him leaving. So basically it boils down to Lakers + Horry = Championship, Lakers - Horry + Malone & Payton = No Championship. But I'm not here to discuss any of that. I'm not here to make a case whether or not the Lakers should have won that year or not.

All I want is consistency in logic. I find people will say Kobe is the best at his position, and sometimes the whole NBA for a large span of time, and not have any consistent reasons why. One minute it's because he's the best player on the championship winner, next minute it's because his stats were better even though he didn't win. For ex. 04-05 Lakers miss playoffs completely, Wade helps the Heat to the #1 seed, and there are fans who can't concede even for that 1 singular year that Kobe wasn't the best SG.

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 10:29 PM
^horry was more important that people think.
When he left i knew it was over...... If at least we had signed Kerr....

llemon
09-01-2011, 10:52 PM
@shep33

The problem is Wade won with an even older Shaq & Payton.. 2 years older in fact... and they went through that same 'very very good' Pistons team. Aside from that, the biggest problem I have is that the Lakers didn't lose anybody to add Malone & Payton. The only rotation guy not on the team from the previous year that they DID win was Horry & Fox. Fox was injured and sucked in his final year, so they didn't lose anything from him leaving. So basically it boils down to Lakers + Horry = Championship, Lakers - Horry + Malone & Payton = No Championship. But I'm not here to discuss any of that. I'm not here to make a case whether or not the Lakers should have won that year or not.

All I want is consistency in logic. I find people will say Kobe is the best at his position, and sometimes the whole NBA for a large span of time, and not have any consistent reasons why. One minute it's because he's the best player on the championship winner, next minute it's because his stats were better even though he didn't win. For ex. 04-05 Lakers miss playoffs completely, Wade helps the Heat to the #1 seed, and there are fans who can't concede even for that 1 singular year that Kobe wasn't the best SG.

Wade did have an older Shaq and Payton.

But Wade also had Stern's referee minions executing a mission of revenge against Mark Cuban.

Life's a muhfuzz, ain't it?

LakersMaster24
09-01-2011, 10:54 PM
I will remember this. You also can't use it to bring a player down and disregard what he's done prior.

It can be used to bring a player down if he constantly does that. However if a player plays well in 3 Finals performances and not so much in the 4th one for example then it should not affect his legacy AS MUCH. What I am saying is that Wade has been in the Finals 2 times. One time was amazing, the other one not so much. So you cant really use just the 1st one to bring his status up.

thephoenixson28
09-01-2011, 11:12 PM
Only if marion signed a extension. Then KG would be with the suns right now. :(

llemon
09-01-2011, 11:19 PM
Only if marion signed a extension. Then KG would be with the suns right now. :(

And all would be right with world.

IBleedPurple
09-02-2011, 12:17 AM
Garnett is dumb anyway, just trying to make himself seem important in a time of little news.

3mikee_
09-02-2011, 12:20 AM
lol.. well he screwed up then. Not saying the Celtics are bad but I see Garnett as a much better fit with the Lakers.

Kobe was far better than Wade in '07... and I'm a Wade fan..

nickdymez
09-02-2011, 12:33 AM
Kobe lost in the 2004 Finals with one of the most stacked teams of all time 1-4 to the Pistons. Wade two years later with an older Shaq & Payton wreaked havoc against those same Pistons on his way to a title.

I'm not here to argue who is or was better... all I want is some consistent logic. One minute you say a guy is better because he's winning championships despite weaker stats, and others he's better just because? No consistency.

I love heat fans because 90% of them dont know basketball.. You do realize that Malone didnt play that series and sladva medvidenko started. You also realize that pistons team was one of the greatest defensive teams ever. Payton was old... lol... Come on man, stacked?

Cal827
09-02-2011, 12:42 AM
I love heat fans because 90% of them dont know basketball.. You do realize that Malone didnt play that series and sladva medvidenko started. You also realize that pistons team was one of the greatest defensive teams ever. Payton was old... lol... Come on man, stacked?

Um Malone did play in that series, I remember his struggles. He did miss one game I believe, but he wasn't completely absent.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2004_finals.html


KG's decision wasn't that bad of a choice. I mean, yes the Lakers have won twice since he moved to his one, but consider that Boston has had strong teams each year, that ended up getting being hit by injuries at the worst possible times. They possibly could have won back to back titles, but KG's absence in the conference semi-finals hurt them against Dwight. Last year, if Perkins wasn't injured in G.6, many people feel that the Lakers wouldn't have come back from that deficit in G.7. Injuries sometimes cannot be avoided. I mean the Lakers had acquired KG and had a KG/Kobe tandem, they likely wouldn't have gotten out of the West when they won their first NBA title with just Kobe. I think he likely would have the same number of NBA titles right now, whether he was a Celtic or Laker.

nickdymez
09-02-2011, 12:44 AM
lol.. Ok he played

nickdymez
09-02-2011, 12:46 AM
He played games 1 and 2 and took a total of 24 shots..

Chronz
09-02-2011, 12:49 AM
fixed.

I suppose he wouldnt have gone in the trade for KG, but remember Marc didnt start playing until after the Celtics had already won the title so he wouldnt be there for LA until the following year (when KG succumbs to injury) and they get a shadow of KG for the remaining years.

No titles for LA if he gos there, I dont even think they get a high enough seed to make it to the Finals

Cal827
09-02-2011, 12:53 AM
He played games 1 and 2 and took a total of 24 shots..

and two more of the games.

http://www.nba.com/lakers/stats/2003/nba_finals_stats.html

lol I do agree with you. In hindsight, it's easy to understand why the Lakers fell to the Pistons... But at the time, most people were leaning towards the 4 future hall-of-famer team over the no-name Pistons.

Hellcrooner
09-02-2011, 12:54 AM
I suppose he wouldnt have gone in the trade for KG, but remember Marc didnt start playing until after the Celtics had already won the title so he wouldnt be there for LA until the following year (when KG succumbs to injury) and they get a shadow of KG for the remaining years.

No titles for LA if he gos there, I dont even think they get a high enough seed to make it to the Finals
Trade happened in july if i dont remember it badly, before the seaosn, i assume if they ahd trade Odom+Bynum And KWAME wich was needed to make salarys fit i can only suppose Lakers would have pushed harder for marc to join right away and payed him a full mle salary ( second rounders can negotiate their salarys) in order that he coudl pay his buyout with Barcelona.

llemon
09-02-2011, 01:14 AM
I love heat fans because 90% of them dont know basketball.. You do realize that Malone didnt play that series and sladva medvidenko started. You also realize that pistons team was one of the greatest defensive teams ever. Payton was old... lol... Come on man, stacked?

Really hate to get involved in Laker matters, but I have to believe that the Laker fans in here who REALLY know about the NBA, and know what they are seeing when they are seeing it, acknowledge the fact that Kobe played the '04 Finals as if he didn't care if the Lakers won or lost that series.

iggypop123
09-02-2011, 02:11 AM
its hard to blame him. especially when mchale basically gifted his pal ainge kg without including rondo.

shep33
09-02-2011, 02:38 AM
@shep33

The problem is Wade won with an even older Shaq & Payton.. 2 years older in fact... and they went through that same 'very very good' Pistons team. Aside from that, the biggest problem I have is that the Lakers didn't lose anybody to add Malone & Payton. The only rotation guy not on the team from the previous year that they DID win was Horry & Fox. Fox was injured and sucked in his final year, so they didn't lose anything from him leaving. So basically it boils down to Lakers + Horry = Championship, Lakers - Horry + Malone & Payton = No Championship. But I'm not here to discuss any of that. I'm not here to make a case whether or not the Lakers should have won that year or not.

All I want is consistency in logic. I find people will say Kobe is the best at his position, and sometimes the whole NBA for a large span of time, and not have any consistent reasons why. One minute it's because he's the best player on the championship winner, next minute it's because his stats were better even though he didn't win. For ex. 04-05 Lakers miss playoffs completely, Wade helps the Heat to the #1 seed, and there are fans who can't concede even for that 1 singular year that Kobe wasn't the best SG.

I understand your point, and I won't argue that Wade isn't a spectacular player, because he is, the guy is a favorite of mine. However, first off the Lakers didn't have Horry that year. Malone was badly injured and was insignificant, Payton was feuding under the Triangle because he didn't fit in it at all, Shaq was overweight, and unmotivated, lets not forget he just so happened to drop 25lbs when he joined the Heat the next season (basically proving that he didn't care that last year). Their supporting cast was just awful, Rick Fox played in 38 games that year, and it was his last (posted career low numbers), Jannero Pargo, Horace Grant (yes Horace Grant), Kareem Rush... those guys just didn't get it done, and even Derek Fisher and Devean George posted horrible numbers, shooting 35% and 40% respectively. That team in all honesty was Kobe, Shaq, and Malone. Considering that Kobe was missing practices and games because of his trial (he was bad that year, no question), Shaq being overweight and a liability on defense, and Malone being in his last year (worst statistical year of his career), this team was not very good in reality. On paper it looked sexy, but as a Laker fan I can tell you it was so hard to watch all year long.

I understand your argument, but we can also reverse the situations. We can say Wade lost this year, with arguably the best player in the league, a top PF, and great 3 point shooters. My argument can be that Kobe never played in his prime with Shaq, and if the two had, they probably would've won 6-7 rings. Or I can say, well Wade had Lebron plus a top PF... so if Kobe had Shaq, and an all-star PF like Webber, Rasheed, etc. then I think we all know that Laker team would've an extra couple rings. The problem with my argument is that its all hypothetical, and it becomes a similar problem with yours, because if your just basing it off talent, well in all reality the Heat were a more talented team than the 2004 Lakers, better bench, two top 3 players, and an all-star PF all in their primes, vs. Kobe (not in his prime), Shaq (out of his prime), Malone (last season, worst season of career), and Payton who averaged under 8 points, and just above 5 dimes in the playoffs... finals were much worse.

My point being though, is that its impossible to compare different teams in different years. Players age, teams get injuries, stuff just doesn't pan out. Again, a hypothetical could be that Kobe won with Gasol and Odom vs. the Magic, and ultimately Kobe, Gasol, Odom < Lebron, Wade, Bosh.

I respect your opinion, and I understand your point, but to me I just think we can't compare two teams that didn't play within the same year, hypotheticals begin to rise and the argument suffers credibility. Although its fun to do it I agree lol.

C-Style
09-02-2011, 07:45 AM
shep33 just either'd that dude with class

Geargo Wallace
09-02-2011, 08:26 AM
They won a ship and, baring injury, would have won another the next year.

beasted86
09-02-2011, 10:23 AM
I love heat fans because 90% of them dont know basketball.. You do realize that Malone didnt play that series and sladva medvidenko started. You also realize that pistons team was one of the greatest defensive teams ever. Payton was old... lol... Come on man, stacked?

Yes, I don't know basketball. :facepalm:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200406060LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200406080LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200406100DET.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200406130DET.html

Karl Molone definitely didn't play that series, you're right about Medvedenko. My fault.

Geargo Wallace
09-02-2011, 10:28 AM
Yes, I don't know basketball. :facepalm:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200406060LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200406080LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200406100DET.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200406130DET.html

Karl Molone definitely didn't play that series, you're right about Medvedenko. My fault.
mr molone did play

Hellcrooner
09-02-2011, 10:36 AM
why is people discussing if Malone played or not?
what does it have to do with the Thread OP?

And btw there is a SINGLE reason lakers lost the 04 finals PERSONAL GREED from one guy who got obsesed with being "the man", he didnt learn his lesson and repeated his Fiasco in 08 before finally thinking...." hey maybe i need my second dude to win the title....lets not hog it so much ( only 3 out each 4 tSHots instead of 4 out of 4)"

nickdymez
09-02-2011, 10:36 AM
lol.... You guys kill me... Ok, literally did Malone play? Yes, he did.. But watching that series it was obvious he was hurt. He didn't start 3 games and he took 24 shots the whole series. **** outta here... A hurt malone playing against a prime Billups, Rip, and Sheed, isnt exactly a dream team right?

beasted86
09-02-2011, 10:36 AM
I respect your opinion, and I understand your point, but to me I just think we can't compare two teams that didn't play within the same year, hypotheticals begin to rise and the argument suffers credibility. Although its fun to do it I agree lol.

As I said, I don't want to drag out discussing whether or not Kobe should have won in 03-04 or comparing the teams of the Lakers that year vs. the Heat two years later. It was just a fact to make a small point. You are correct that it's not a good point to compare different teams in different years. The Pistons the Heat went through weren't a 100% clone of the Pistons the Lakers faced (different coach, a few different rotation players even if the core was the same).

The real debate point is over the past 7 years, excluding Wade's rookie season, through various times Wade had better stats, Kobe had better stats... Wade won more, Kobe won more... Wade had weaker teammates, Kobe had weaker teammates. And to explain my point further, I'm not just comparing Kobe & Wade alone, this extends to all NBA players. You'd think with varying circumstances and outputs you'd have varying opinions on who was the best SG or best NBA player is.... but instead you have people holding a constant in saying Kobe was the best SG/NBA player, and they have no consistent reason why. What variable explains why he was the best consistently? Stats? we can easily prove he wasn't the best statistically for 7 years straight. Wins? We can prove he didn't win for the past 7 years straight either. So what is it?

beasted86
09-02-2011, 10:44 AM
lol.... You guys kill me... Ok, literally did Malone play? Yes, he did.. But watching that series it was obvious he was hurt. He didn't start 3 games and he took 24 shots the whole series. **** outta here... A hurt malone playing against a prime Billups, Rip, and Sheed, isnt exactly a dream team right?

Here's the primary problem why you are getting flamed. First, your initial post in this thread is claiming me & 90% of Heat fans don't know basketball, then you go on to post completely false "facts" that make you lose credibility. Second, you continue to post false facts. Malone started in ALL games he played. He started 4 out of the 5 games, and played 44, 39, 18, and 21 minutes.

It seems you are the one who doesn't know basketball and you just keep backtracking when proven wrong.

Chronz
09-02-2011, 10:45 AM
Trade happened in july if i dont remember it badly, before the seaosn, i assume if they ahd trade Odom+Bynum And KWAME wich was needed to make salarys fit i can only suppose Lakers would have pushed harder for marc to join right away and payed him a full mle salary ( second rounders can negotiate their salarys) in order that he coudl pay his buyout with Barcelona.
So your stuck overpaying for an out of shape Gasol whos not as far along in his development on top of losing the MLE. They still lose in the West and whoever gets Gasol on the cheap is probably as good as them. If Boston lands Gasol instead then they are ridiculously stacked.

SteBO
09-02-2011, 10:51 AM
why is people discussing if Malone played or not?
what does it have to do with the Thread OP?

And btw there is a SINGLE reason lakers lost the 04 finals PERSONAL GREED from one guy who got obsesed with being "the man", he didnt learn his lesson and repeated his Fiasco in 08 before finally thinking...." hey maybe i need my second dude to win the title....lets not hog it so much ( only 3 out each 4 tSHots instead of 4 out of 4)"
:laugh2: Are you serious? The Lakers lost because they went up against a Pistons team who's defense was at it's best when it needed to be and....

1) Gary Payton was old (Chauncey Billups killed him in P&R situations constantly.)
2) Malone was even older, and he in fact missed Game 5 I think completely. I see beasted put up the links to verify that.
3) Detroit had the perfect mix of players to give the Lakers problems inside and out on both ends of the court.

It has nothing to do with Kobe not wanting to share spotlight with another star. Personal greed? C'mon man.

Hellcrooner
09-02-2011, 11:00 AM
:laugh2: Are you serious? The Lakers lost because they went up against a Pistons team who's defense was at it's best when it needed to be and....

1) Gary Payton was old (Chauncey Billups killed him in P&R situations constantly.)
2) Malone was even older, and he in fact missed Game 5 I think completely. I see beasted put up the links to verify that.
3) Detroit had the perfect mix of players to give the Lakers problems inside and out on both ends of the court.

It has nothing to do with Kobe not wanting to share spotlight with another star. Personal greed? C'mon man.

Games were usually close until KObe shot us out of them.
Im a laker fan, i watched the games i know what happened, i saw a doubel teamed kobe neglet the pass to an open shaq one time after another theres a reason why the first thing shaq said after the finals is " **** you im gonna do whats best for me, i want out" and theresa reason why PJ said " **** it im retiring".

SteBO
09-02-2011, 11:07 AM
Games were usually close until KObe shot us out of them.
Im a laker fan, i watched the games i know what happened, i saw a doubel teamed kobe neglet the pass to an open shaq one time after another theres a reason why the first thing shaq said after the finals is " **** you im gonna do whats best for me, i want out" and theresa reason why PJ said " **** it im retiring".
I watched them too, and saw what you saw, but you just made it sound like personal greed was the main reason they lost that series. How about some credit going to Detroit and forcing those shots from Kobe? Could it have been a factor? Yeah, but it was far from the overriding one. Ben Wallace played pretty good D on Shaq too if I recall correctly.

Hawkeye15
09-02-2011, 11:56 AM
To me, Kobe didn't look like he gave one **** about winning or losing that series. That was the height of the Shaq/Kobe power feud.

The Lakers had the overall talent to beat the Pistons, but their chemistry was in ruins. The Pistons were the opposite. Kobe didn't throw the series obviously, but he wasn't playing to win. Neither was Shaq at that point.

Detroit did indeed play a great series, and presented a matchup nightmare for the Lakers. But the Lakers should have won that series, yet got killed.

Hawkeye15
09-02-2011, 11:57 AM
there is a reason Jackson threw the towel in after that season, and made sure to include Kobe's antics into his book.

SteBO
09-02-2011, 11:59 AM
there is a reason Jackson threw the towel in after that season, and made sure to include Kobe's antics into his book.
I read that book by the way. Great stuff.

Avenged
09-02-2011, 12:14 PM
It worked out well for both KG and the Lakers in the end.

KG got his 1 championship he's always wanted, and the Lakers ended up winning 2 championships by not trading for KG.

But was it really KG's choice to not go to the Lakers? I don't quite remember. Were the Lakers and Wolves about to finalize the trade when KG said no?

nickdymez
09-02-2011, 12:50 PM
Here's the primary problem why you are getting flamed. First, your initial post in this thread is claiming me & 90% of Heat fans don't know basketball, then you go on to post completely false "facts" that make you lose credibility. Second, you continue to post false facts. Malone started in ALL games he played. He started 4 out of the 5 games, and played 44, 39, 18, and 21 minutes.

It seems you are the one who doesn't know basketball and you just keep backtracking when proven wrong.

Proven wrong about what? I said he started... I was wrong about that... But that wasnt my point. Its hard to explain how i meant to say what i said to a bunch of robots.. My point to you was that the lakers were hardly a dream team. Malone didnt play starter minutes at all.. Rasheed killed slava.. Kobe was constantly double and triple teamed and took terrible shots (Credit goes to Larry Brown and the Pistons). Ben Wallace at that time was one of the only big men who could stick shaq one on one and not get killed for 50. The pistons has an excellent game plan. Its hard talking sports to a bunch of nerds...

Hawkeye15
09-02-2011, 01:10 PM
It worked out well for both KG and the Lakers in the end.

KG got his 1 championship he's always wanted, and the Lakers ended up winning 2 championships by not trading for KG.

But was it really KG's choice to not go to the Lakers? I don't quite remember. Were the Lakers and Wolves about to finalize the trade when KG said no?

nah, it never got that far. I think the Lakers unwillingness to include both Bynum and Odom killed any potential deal. I think KG is simply saying this after the fact, and we need to take it with a grain of salt since he ended up in Boston.

Hawkeye15
09-02-2011, 01:13 PM
Proven wrong about what? I said he started... I was wrong about that... But that wasnt my point. Its hard to explain how i meant to say what i said to a bunch of robots.. My point to you was that the lakers were hardly a dream team. Malone didnt play starter minutes at all.. Rasheed killed slava.. Kobe was constantly double and triple teamed and took terrible shots (Credit goes to Larry Brown and the Pistons). Ben Wallace at that time was one of the only big men who could stick shaq one on one and not get killed for 50. The pistons has an excellent game plan. Its hard talking sports to a bunch of nerds...

you continue to label everyone here that goes into greater depths than the guy at your water cooler at work robots or nerds.

This is why you get a lot of heat. Many of us came here because we DO follow the sport a ton more than the average person, and would like to converse with other knowledgeable fans. So when you make claims without being 100% certain, expect to be called out here, because there are some students of the game that post in here.

shep33
09-02-2011, 01:33 PM
As I said, I don't want to drag out discussing whether or not Kobe should have won in 03-04 or comparing the teams of the Lakers that year vs. the Heat two years later. It was just a fact to make a small point. You are correct that it's not a good point to compare different teams in different years. The Pistons the Heat went through weren't a 100% clone of the Pistons the Lakers faced (different coach, a few different rotation players even if the core was the same).

The real debate point is over the past 7 years, excluding Wade's rookie season, through various times Wade had better stats, Kobe had better stats... Wade won more, Kobe won more... Wade had weaker teammates, Kobe had weaker teammates. And to explain my point further, I'm not just comparing Kobe & Wade alone, this extends to all NBA players. You'd think with varying circumstances and outputs you'd have varying opinions on who was the best SG or best NBA player is.... but instead you have people holding a constant in saying Kobe was the best SG/NBA player, and they have no consistent reason why. What variable explains why he was the best consistently? Stats? we can easily prove he wasn't the best statistically for 7 years straight. Wins? We can prove he didn't win for the past 7 years straight either. So what is it?


I understand your point, its a good one. Again what I'm about to say contains some hypotheticals, so they can't really be proved. When people go by statistics, I think there should be a level of caution in reading into numbers, again that's just my opinion. One thing that I look at which lowered Kobe's numbers over his career is the Triangle offense, I've stated my argument on this before, because the Triangle has been well known to drop statistics of guards. Even when you look at Jordan's numbers before the Triangle vs. after, his numbers before were off the charts, his numbers after were still phenomenal, but without question his best statistical years were without the Triangle, and without a player like Pippen who helped balance the offense.

Honestly, what I hate about the Triangle (although it has obviously had its success), is that it doesn't utilize a pick and roll ever. The Lakers over the past 3 years have one of the best pick and roll players in Gasol, but they never use it because the Triangle prevents it.

If you look at guards, particularly Fisher, Kobe, MJ, Ron Harper, Brian Shaw etc., they all posted very low assist totals on those championship teams. The only guy that was an anomaly was Scottie Pippen.

But again, I mean its so difficult to determine this because Kobe has never really played out of the Triangle offense.

Haha, I'm a big fan of Wade, so please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to trash the guy. Wade is a top SG of all-time in my opinion.

shep33
09-02-2011, 01:35 PM
nah, it never got that far. I think the Lakers unwillingness to include both Bynum and Odom killed any potential deal. I think KG is simply saying this after the fact, and we need to take it with a grain of salt since he ended up in Boston.

So true. Really it worked out for Boston and LA. KG helped bring Boston back to significance after a long stretch of bad luck.

Hawkeye15
09-02-2011, 01:39 PM
So true. Really it worked out for Boston and LA. KG helped bring Boston back to significance after a long stretch of bad luck.

yep. Obviously worked for both teams, seeing as they have eaten up 75% of the championships since that summer.

nickdymez
09-02-2011, 02:10 PM
you continue to label everyone here that goes into greater depths than the guy at your water cooler at work robots or nerds.

This is why you get a lot of heat. Many of us came here because we DO follow the sport a ton more than the average person, and would like to converse with other knowledgeable fans. So when you make claims without being 100% certain, expect to be called out here, because there are some students of the game that post in here.

I guess... But sports isnt about math and numbers... Im guessing if you people were such students of the game, you would be more known than psd posters... Thats no knock.. But it reminds me of the garange band that thinks they are as good as the signed band

nickdymez
09-02-2011, 02:15 PM
In other words, in person without google, you wouldn't be able to talk much sports with me.. I can google stats like you guys, but why? Its no fun. Until its absolutely necessary.. But i gotta remember this is the internet.

And by you, i mean in general...

JordansBulls
09-02-2011, 02:24 PM
Garnett did the right thing, had he gone to LA he would not have gotten nearly the credit he got when he won in Boston.

SteBO
09-02-2011, 02:32 PM
I guess... But sports isnt about math and numbers... Im guessing if you people were such students of the game, you would be more known than psd posters... Thats no knock.. But it reminds me of the garange band that thinks they are as good as the signed band


In other words, in person without google, you wouldn't be able to talk much sports with me.. I can google stats like you guys, but why? Its no fun. Until its absolutely necessary.. But i gotta remember this is the internet.

And by you, i mean in general...
Stats allow you to open your eyes to grasp things that couldn't be seen on the court. They're also a good to look at and understand so people can have intelligent conversations here without using elementary school logic. No, sports isn't about numbers but it plays a big role in evaluating a player and understanding where their strengths and weaknesses lie. That's what it means to be a student of the game, and that isn't a bad thing. You shuold try it. You'd be amazed at what you could learn.

Corey
09-02-2011, 02:33 PM
Garnett did the right thing, had he gone to LA he would not have gotten nearly the credit he got when he won in Boston.

Doubt he really gives a crap about how much credit he is given.

nickdymez
09-02-2011, 03:15 PM
Stats allow you to open your eyes to grasp things that couldn't be seen on the court. They're also a good to look at and understand so people can have intelligent conversations here without using elementary school logic. No, sports isn't about numbers but it plays a big role in evaluating a player and understanding where their strengths and weaknesses lie. That's what it means to be a student of the game, and that isn't a bad thing. You shuold try it. You'd be amazed at what you could learn.

All thats fine if your a GM or scout, which none of you are.. Just be a fan of the game.. Its a whole lot better....

Hawkeye15
09-02-2011, 03:25 PM
In other words, in person without google, you wouldn't be able to talk much sports with me.. I can google stats like you guys, but why? Its no fun. Until its absolutely necessary.. But i gotta remember this is the internet.

And by you, i mean in general...

Nope. I can tell you why Derrick Rose isn't as efficient as Paul without looking at anything. I can tell you why Love is a better rebounder than Blake Griffin without looking at a sheet. I can tell you why Deron turns the ball over more than Chris Paul. And what I say has physical evidence to back it up.

So, when someone says, "Kobe is a better mid range jump shooter than LeBron", and a reply comes back, "well, LeBron shoots 48% on mid range versus Kobe's 42%", the rebuttal shouldn't be, "lmao, you are such a stats nerd". Its a fact.

Stats are used as evidence. They are not used to formulate absolute opinions. The game is complex, but understanding it really isn't that difficult with the tools we have now, as long as you understand the game first.

Hawkeye15
09-02-2011, 03:28 PM
All thats fine if your a GM or scout, which none of you are.. Just be a fan of the game.. Its a whole lot better....

cause I really want to have this convo:

"LeBron is better than Kobe cause!"
"No, Kobe has 5 championships, so he is better"
"is not"
"is to"

I like context to be in there. You never actually engage anyone here. You blow them off. So when a poster like Swashcuff provides a post with mountain of evidence, opinion, basketball insight with examples, and he gets brushed off, why would he care to continue?

nickdymez
09-02-2011, 03:45 PM
cause I really want to have this convo:

"LeBron is better than Kobe cause!"
"No, Kobe has 5 championships, so he is better"
"is not"
"is to"

I like context to be in there. You never actually engage anyone here. You blow them off. So when a poster like Swashcuff provides a post with mountain of evidence, opinion, basketball insight with examples, and he gets brushed off, why would he care to continue?

Your lying now. Ive backed up my arguments plenty of times. But if my argument doesnt involve numbers, then you guys dont pay attention. And talking about sports isnt all about "Lebron is better than Kobe". Dont condescend me buddy. When im talking about sports to people who arent nerds, we talk about things like footwork, basketball iq (With in game examples), etc. When im at a bar watching a game, no one says anything about someones field goal % or start rattling off advanced stats. Real men would pour a beer over their head. Just sayin

SteBO
09-02-2011, 03:51 PM
All thats fine if your a GM or scout, which none of you are.. Just be a fan of the game.. Its a whole lot better....
This where you are misinformed. Stats, basic or advanced, are a huge part of debate and not just in the NBA, but in sports period. Without them, we would have no true insight as to who is a better player. Swashcuff, Hawkeye, patsSOXknicks, myself, and many others here are fans of the game, but since we discuss stats and try to evaluate them that way, we aren't fans of the game? That doesn't make any sense.

nickdymez
09-02-2011, 04:05 PM
This where you are misinformed. Stats, basic or advanced, are a huge part of debate and not just in the NBA, but in sports period. Without them, we would have no true insight as to who is a better player. Swashcuff, Hawkeye, patsSOXknicks, myself, and many others here are fans of the game, but since we discuss stats and try to evaluate them that way, we aren't fans of the game? That doesn't make any sense.

First off, i just want you to know that im not being hostile. Just debating. Im not saying your not fans, im sure you obviously are. What im sayin is stop putting so much into numbers. For instance. I was having a debate about Kobe and Lebron with this guy i know. He said Lebron is a better basketball player because his numbers are better. Do you belive that since a guy puts up better numbers, he's better? I reminded him that Kobe played with shaq in the early part of his career and didn't get drafted to a team and had the keys handed to him. You people wonder why i dont bash Wade? Look at his game. Look how he plays the game. I base players off that. When i tell people that i think wade is a better BASKETBALL player than Lebron, i get called stupid because Lebron edges out wade in stats? Dumb.

justOmazing
09-02-2011, 04:15 PM
What does it matter? I'm sure he had the opportunity over the years to discuss many chances to go to a bunch of other teams. Big whoop. He went to the Celts. End of story.

xM1GSx
09-02-2011, 04:25 PM
interesting read

Corey
09-02-2011, 04:27 PM
interesting read

You should listen to the interview on Dan Patrick's site. Pretty great.

justOmazing
09-02-2011, 04:28 PM
Your lying now. Ive backed up my arguments plenty of times. But if my argument doesnt involve numbers, then you guys dont pay attention. And talking about sports isnt all about "Lebron is better than Kobe". Dont condescend me buddy. When im talking about sports to people who arent nerds, we talk about things like footwork, basketball iq (With in game examples), etc. When im at a bar watching a game, no one says anything about someones field goal % or start rattling off advanced stats. Real men would pour a beer over their head. Just sayin

huh? so you, a real man, would pour a beer over the head of a guy who talks about field goal %? I'd really like to see that in action. :cheers:

PS. but seriously, no wonder people aren't really wanting to chat you up on this one man... no offense, but that's 8th grader behavior. PSD is not a bar... it is an actual online forum where you debate strangers, nerds, jocks, and people from all over the world.. and you can actually learn **** if you listen.

nickdymez
09-02-2011, 04:37 PM
huh? so you, a real man, would pour a beer over the head of a guy who talks about field goal %? I'd really like to see that in action. :cheers:

PS. but seriously, no wonder people aren't really wanting to chat you up on this one man... no offense, but that's 8th grader behavior. PSD is not a bar... it is an actual online forum where you debate strangers, nerds, jocks, and people from all over the world.. and you can actually learn **** if you listen.

Shut up... No one is gonna pour beer over anyone's head.. I was being facetious... Nerd.. Just chill man.. Everyone here wants to prove how smart they are... Who cares.... Kobe's better than Lebron... Lebron is better than Rose...blah blah... win shares.... whatever

Corey
09-02-2011, 04:46 PM
Shut up... No one is gonna pour beer over anyone's head.. I was being facetious... Nerd.. Just chill man.. Everyone here wants to prove how smart they are... Who cares.... Kobe's better than Lebron... Lebron is better than Rose...blah blah... win shares.... whatever

I'm sorry, but statistics tell the story a lot better than a biased opinion.

Just the way it is.

Hawkeye15
09-02-2011, 05:36 PM
Your lying now. Ive backed up my arguments plenty of times. But if my argument doesnt involve numbers, then you guys dont pay attention. And talking about sports isnt all about "Lebron is better than Kobe". Dont condescend me buddy. When im talking about sports to people who arent nerds, we talk about things like footwork, basketball iq (With in game examples), etc. When im at a bar watching a game, no one says anything about someones field goal % or start rattling off advanced stats. Real men would pour a beer over their head. Just sayin

you back it up with your opinions, but you leave it at that nearly every time. And when backed into a corner with statistical evidence, you resort to the bottom portion of your post here.

I don't bring up advanced stats at a bar, or hanging out with my friends. The casual fan at a bar doesn't even have the basic understanding of the game of basketball to attempt to present that type of information. That would be like someone talking about advanced quantam physics in your 9th grade physics course. You would have no idea wtf they are talking about.

That is why I, and many came here. To discuss basketball at a higher level.

Anyways, last I will touch on this with you. You apparently have no desire to even attempt to embrace advanced stats. But I still don't get why you have to blast them when you don't even care to give them a chance. I have seen plenty of people here give in, start researching them, and they almost all start embracing them in arguments.

To each their own. There are a few here who make sound arguments without ever using an advanced stat. But most just come off as opinionated people who can't back those opinions up.

Peace bro

Tony_Starks
09-02-2011, 05:52 PM
In reality this had nothing to do with KG and everything with McHale doing his old Celtic buddy a solid and robbing the robbing the Wolves in return. McHale bleeds green there's no way he would ever do anything that made the Lakers contenders again, even though they had better pieces to offer.

Good for him though, Lakers still came out on top and did it without having the biggest jerk in the league as part of it. Thats a win-win!

Hawkeye15
09-02-2011, 06:01 PM
In reality this had nothing to do with KG and everything with McHale doing his old Celtic buddy a solid and robbing the robbing the Wolves in return. McHale bleeds green there's no way he would ever do anything that made the Lakers contenders again, even though they had better pieces to offer.

Good for him though, Lakers still came out on top and did it without having the biggest jerk in the league as part of it. Thats a win-win!

this isn't the worst point. McHale, deep down, would never have wanted to give KG to the Lakers.

justinnum1
09-02-2011, 06:23 PM
dwyane wade

+1

nickdymez
09-02-2011, 06:39 PM
you back it up with your opinions, but you leave it at that nearly every time. And when backed into a corner with statistical evidence, you resort to the bottom portion of your post here.

I don't bring up advanced stats at a bar, or hanging out with my friends. The casual fan at a bar doesn't even have the basic understanding of the game of basketball to attempt to present that type of information. That would be like someone talking about advanced quantam physics in your 9th grade physics course. You would have no idea wtf they are talking about.

That is why I, and many came here. To discuss basketball at a higher level.

Anyways, last I will touch on this with you. You apparently have no desire to even attempt to embrace advanced stats. But I still don't get why you have to blast them when you don't even care to give them a chance. I have seen plenty of people here give in, start researching them, and they almost all start embracing them in arguments.

To each their own. There are a few here who make sound arguments without ever using an advanced stat. But most just come off as opinionated people who can't back those opinions up.

Peace bro

wow

Chronz
09-02-2011, 06:39 PM
this isn't the worst point. McHale, deep down, would never have wanted to give KG to the Lakers.

Oh hey I have to apologize, turns out you were right about KG not forcing the trade until he got word that he was being shopped. Didnt know about that rumor

sventhedog
09-02-2011, 07:18 PM
garnett loves attention probably not as much as lebron. why else would he trash talk anyone on sight? don't tell me you believe when the nba refers to it as "intensity." lol.

Hawkeye15
09-02-2011, 07:26 PM
Oh hey I have to apologize, turns out you were right about KG not forcing the trade until he got word that he was being shopped. Didnt know about that rumor

well, we don't know what these players do behind closed doors. So we can only attempt to interpret their off court actions by their on court actions and their media run-ins. KG just seems so loyal, even to a fault. I think the FO initiated the trade in all honesty, but that is obviously my hunch only.

Thanks however Chronz.

Chronz
09-02-2011, 07:35 PM
Oh he still chose where to go and I think he would have eventually forced a trade but the TWolves were shopping him before it got to that point.

Hawkeye15
09-02-2011, 07:40 PM
wow

what do you have a problem with? I am sure there are casual fans in your local bar who can talk all night long about the Lakers, but if you asked them to explain why they thought the Knicks lost to the Rockets in the 94' finals, their answers would be laughable. I am sure if you asked them to give you an evaluation of Luke Ridnour, they would be so off base its not even funny.

Please don't think I was being arrogant. Some (most) just aren't as interested in basketball as many that come to sites like this.

There are even some posters here who are VERY knowledgeable about their own teams players and histories, and show up in threads and kill it. But you rarely ever see these guys go into threads that have zip involvement with their team, because they live in their own little team bubble.

I would love to have a debate without stats with you on any team outside the Lakers/Heat to see what you really know/follow in the NBA. Not sure if you follow all the teams. I do. Some more than others, but I watch them all. Always have.

nickdymez
09-02-2011, 09:57 PM
what do you have a problem with? I am sure there are casual fans in your local bar who can talk all night long about the Lakers, but if you asked them to explain why they thought the Knicks lost to the Rockets in the 94' finals, their answers would be laughable. I am sure if you asked them to give you an evaluation of Luke Ridnour, they would be so off base its not even funny.

Please don't think I was being arrogant. Some (most) just aren't as interested in basketball as many that come to sites like this.

There are even some posters here who are VERY knowledgeable about their own teams players and histories, and show up in threads and kill it. But you rarely ever see these guys go into threads that have zip involvement with their team, because they live in their own little team bubble.

I would love to have a debate without stats with you on any team outside the Lakers/Heat to see what you really know/follow in the NBA. Not sure if you follow all the teams. I do. Some more than others, but I watch them all. Always have.

So you think i only know about the Heat and Lakers? This point right here is why people on this site will never like me. All of you regular posters come off as arrogant because you decided to take up advanced stats and people like me make a mockery of your arrogance with my nonchalant attitude about advanced stats. It makes you people sick that not everyone has bought into it. None of you are doing anything with your vast knowledge of advanced stats but schooling people on PSD. I've been coaching basketball off and on for 10 years now, played a little JC ball, and traveled around with the all Navy team for a bit. Never heard another coach or anyone for that matter rattle off ADVANCED STATS. Well you peoples definition of it. Im a pretty knowledgeable coach about the game of basketball There aren't many Lakers fans in the bars i go to actually.. Be a little bit more humble man, if you were as smart as you think you were, you would be doing it as a job. I know im not as smart as i think i am, that's why i have a real job..

LakersA's49ers
09-02-2011, 10:15 PM
oh well. we got a bigger man in Pau

Hawkeye15
09-02-2011, 10:23 PM
Original post by nickdymez



So you think i only know about the Heat and Lakers?

I really haven't seen you put a lot of debate forward unless it revolves around Kobe/Lakers/LeBron, etc. Sorry if I haven't seen you in other threads if you were, my bad.


This point right here is why people on this site will never like me.

There are people here who will never like me. It's no big deal, there is no reason to care about someone not liking you on a sports site.


All of you regular posters come off as arrogant because you decided to take up advanced stats and people like me make a mockery of your arrogance with my nonchalant attitude about advanced stats.

Yes, attacking people for using tools that every team uses with their appointed stats hire, makes your complete refusal to embrace a new tool acceptable. That doesn't make sense man.



It makes you people sick that not everyone has bought into it.

I could care less if you ever look into stats.


None of you are doing anything with your vast knowledge of advanced stats but schooling people on PSD.

.....



I've been coaching basketball off and on for 10 years now, played a little JC ball, and traveled around with the all Navy team for a bit.

So what? There are many here, who have played plenty of basketball, including myself. How does that make you a better evaluator when we have countless examples of all time great players completely failing in player evaluations and putting teams together? I played, I coached, I officiated, I kept score, I coached skill camps, but that doesn't mean I know everything about basketball, or I wouldn't be on a site to talk about it.



Never heard another coach or anyone for that matter rattle off ADVANCED STATS.

Neither did I. Neither of us played at a high enough level where that intense scouting takes place.


Well you peoples definition of it.

Your definition. Not peoples.



Im a pretty knowledgeable coach about the game of basketball There aren't many Lakers fans in the bars i go to actually.. Be a little bit more humble man, if you were as smart as you think you were, you would be doing it as a job. I know im not as smart as i think i am, that's why i have a real job.

Then take on debates in a far more mature way. Its really that simple. If you truly believe you have a lot of basketball insight, than share it without cutting others down that don't believe with you, or provide their argument (ie, evidence).

LosDoyers1
09-02-2011, 10:39 PM
As a Laker fan, I don't care. We won two rings without getting him. He only has one. He's turned into a trash-talking douchebag anyway and he's a shell of his former self. I am glad he's not representing the purple and gold.

CowboysKB24
09-02-2011, 11:24 PM
It would have been crazy to see Kobe and Garnett together. Kobe and Gasol won 2 championships... KG and KB might have won 3 or 4 because there would not have been Boston in the mix. We probably would have got to see a KB vs LBJ finals as well. Interesting stuff, but in the end it worked out for both players.

beasted86
09-03-2011, 01:06 AM
But again, I mean its so difficult to determine this because Kobe has never really played out of the Triangle offense.


Kobe did play outside of the triangle. In 04-05 when the Lakers were under Tomjanovic, they didn't run the Triangle offense. Aside from that, over the next 2 seasons 05-06 & 06-07 season as well they went away from the Triangle a little because they didn't have the personnel to run it and Phil was returning trying to teach braindead guys like Smush, Kwame, & Chris Mihm how to play in it.

All honesty I think we had at least 3 years of Kobe out of the Triangle. His scoring went up a decent amount, but assists nor anything else really changed. His efficiency remained constant.

nickdymez
09-03-2011, 02:03 AM
I really haven't seen you put a lot of debate forward unless it revolves around Kobe/Lakers/LeBron, etc. Sorry if I haven't seen you in other threads if you were, my bad.

Because you only want to argue with me. Its called turning a blind eye...

There are people here who will never like me. It's no big deal, there is no reason to care about someone not liking you on a sports site.

That wasnt the point of me saying that, but ok..

Yes, attacking people for using tools that every team uses with their appointed stats hire, makes your complete refusal to embrace a new tool acceptable. That doesn't make sense man.

Sorry, never heard of that position until today


I could care less if you ever look into stats.

Then when responding to me, dont use advanced stats.. Because i could care less about them


.....




So what? There are many here, who have played plenty of basketball, including myself. How does that make you a better evaluator when we have countless examples of all time great players completely failing in player evaluations and putting teams together? I played, I coached, I officiated, I kept score, I coached skill camps, but that doesn't mean I know everything about basketball, or I wouldn't be on a site to talk about it.

Again you missed the point and flipped it to make me look like an *******. I said that i dont think im any smarter than anyone else because of these facts about me. My point was to tell you that im not some casual fan. You dont get to the level of ball i played and coached by being a casual fan. Your not as smart as you think you are.. You post on a website to 15 year old boys... You shove advanced stats down peoples throats, then you guys band together and ridicule anyone who doesn't agree with the usage of them.. Ive seen it here...


Neither did I. Neither of us played at a high enough level where that intense scouting takes place.

Scouting is scouting my man. Like ive said 10000000 times, No ones heard of advanced stats until recently.. Before that basketball was doing just fine chief.

Your definition. Not peoples.

No your definition


Then take on debates in a far more mature way. Its really that simple. If you truly believe you have a lot of basketball insight, than share it without cutting others down that don't believe with you, or provide their argument (ie, evidence).lol@ "evidence".. You mean advanced stats? Because i always give evidence.. Its just not what you wanna hear.

I had to reply like this because of the way you replied to me...

shep33
09-03-2011, 11:42 AM
Kobe did play outside of the triangle. In 04-05 when the Lakers were under Tomjanovic, they didn't run the Triangle offense. Aside from that, over the next 2 seasons 05-06 & 06-07 season as well they went away from the Triangle a little because they didn't have the personnel to run it and Phil was returning trying to teach braindead guys like Smush, Kwame, & Chris Mihm how to play in it.

All honesty I think we had at least 3 years of Kobe out of the Triangle. His scoring went up a decent amount, but assists nor anything else really changed. His efficiency remained constant.

Remember though that Rudy T had to retire half way through that season. Basically the architect of the new offense was gone after 41 games due to health concerns. That was Kobe's worst year IMO, that and the year before with Malone and Payton.

I agree that they'd often go out of the triangle in 2006 and 2007, but its only because they had to. Nobody was competent enough to score 15 points on that team consistently.

When it comes to assists, I'm pretty confident that if the Lakers played in a pick and roll system with shooters, similar to Lebron in Cleveland, his assists would go up. But in all truth, the Lakers have been a very inconsistent 3 point shooting team, particularly because the of their personnel. Last year their best 3 point shooter was Lamar Odom. If you can watch a few Laker games of last year, and just count how many corner 3's Kobe sets up for his teammates. Haha unfortunately its always Artest, Fisher, or Shannon Brown. Also the pick and pop with Gasol is money, but the Triangle doesn't allow it.

This is just my opinion, and I don't know if people will agree with me, but the modern NBA has become a league based on ball screens, and IMO that type of offense inflates statistics. It's not a bad thing, but if we look at the NBA today, almost every team incorporates the offense, particularly because it creates so many problems defensively.

justOmazing
09-03-2011, 12:26 PM
Shut up... No one is gonna pour beer over anyone's head.. I was being facetious... Nerd.. Just chill man.. Everyone here wants to prove how smart they are... Who cares.... Kobe's better than Lebron... Lebron is better than Rose...blah blah... win shares.... whatever

I have to say, that's probably the first time in my life I have ever been called a "nerd". :laugh: Once again, 8th grader stuff here man.

If you didn't want to debate people who want to prove how smart they are, than you shouldn't have come onto PSD with all us nerds.

nickdymez
09-03-2011, 01:35 PM
I have to say, that's probably the first time in my life I have ever been called a "nerd". :laugh: Once again, 8th grader stuff here man.

If you didn't want to debate people who want to prove how smart they are, than you shouldn't have come onto PSD with all us nerds.

I love your passive aggressive answer.. Your a nerd man.. I'm not gonna beat you up for it. Thats what 8th graders do, beat up nerds... Embrace it buddy...

Chronz
09-03-2011, 03:10 PM
Kobe did play outside of the triangle. In 04-05 when the Lakers were under Tomjanovic, they didn't run the Triangle offense.
Hamblen took over midway through the year, before that point the Lakers were running simple spread out sets with Kobe facilitating, the result was a career low rate of efficiency for him. Once he returned to the triangle midway through the season his stats revered to their usual levels.

When he came back, the first thing Phil wanted to do was get Kobe back on the wing/mid post and off the ball, allowing Odom to take over facilitating duties.

Kobe is at his best in the triangle.

Chronz
09-03-2011, 03:30 PM
Remember though that Rudy T had to retire half way through that season. Basically the architect of the new offense was gone after 41 games due to health concerns. That was Kobe's worst year IMO, that and the year before with Malone and Payton.
Yeah it was definitely his worst year but it was because he was in a role not suited for his skillset/game type. Kobes never been an elite top of the key type of attacker, hes at his best when he can use his elusive handle within closer proximity, he has what most perimeter players don't, an in between game.



When it comes to assists, I'm pretty confident that if the Lakers played in a pick and roll system with shooters, similar to Lebron in Cleveland, his assists would go up. Yeah but if your passing efficiency suffers and takes away from your game as a while then what's the point?




But in all truth, the Lakers have been a very inconsistent 3 point shooting team, particularly because the of their personnel. Last year their best 3 point shooter was Lamar Odom. If you can watch a few Laker games of last year, and just count how many corner 3's Kobe sets up for his teammates. Haha unfortunately its always Artest, Fisher, or Shannon Brown. Also the pick and pop with Gasol is money, but the Triangle doesn't allow it.
Money? I've kept a close eye on Kobes efficiency in PnR situations the last 2 years, its not a weakness by any means but hes no Bron/Wade either.



This is just my opinion, and I don't know if people will agree with me, but the modern NBA has become a league based on ball screens, and IMO that type of offense inflates statistics. It's not a bad thing, but if we look at the NBA today, almost every team incorporates the offense, particularly because it creates so many problems defensively.
It depends on the players but I agree these new younger athletes rely primarily on attacking rotating defenses that way but its not inflation. If you have a traditional sg like Ray, Kevin Martin your going to have him run through screens because they are fit for that system and suck in the PnR. Likewise a guy like Wade wouldn't be as effective in their role.
Then there are guys like EG who I have trouble classifying but we'll call him a combo guard, hes at his best when he doesn't have to rely on a single set, he plays alil off the ball and can play PnR, often in the same play giving him several options. But hes not the guy who would thrive in a role where hes constantly attacking from one or the other.

Point being players are put in roles depending on various factors. That's not inflation.