PDA

View Full Version : PSD's Official #29 NBA Player of All-Time



JordansBulls
09-01-2011, 08:24 AM
Voting for #28 has concluded and PSD's Official #28 NBA Player of all time is....

Rick Barry

Top 3 Voting:
Rick Barry = 12 votes
Isiah Thomas = 10 votes
Allen Iverson = 7 votes


The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)
20. Kevin Garnett (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641975)
21. LeBron James (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511)
22. Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643161)
23. Bob Pettit (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=644031)
24. John Havlicek (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645330)
25. Elgin Baylor (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645990)
26. Dwyane Wade (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=646496)
27. Scottie Pippen (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=647144)
28. Rick Barry (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=648440)

Voting will now begin for the #29 NBA Player All Time

NOTE: You can only nominate one player and that player had to be an allstar multiple times at least probably at least 3 times at a minimum. The player who has the most nomination votes will be added to the next poll. Anyone who nominates more than one player there nomination will be disregarded.


2nd NOTE: Have seen a lot of posters just vote, but not make a single comment in the thread on there choice. We need you to participate and say why you chose who you did. Basically support it. If not, then don't see why your vote should count.

With the lack of participation and just voting, we will do the voting another way now to get more participation.

These are the players that can be voted for the #29 spot.

Willis Reed
Elgin Baylor
Bob Cousy
Isiah Thomas
Gary Payton
Patrick Ewing
Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Sam Jones
Walt Frazier
Allen Iverson
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Bob Mcadoo
Bill Walton
George Gervin
Kevin McHale
James Worthy
Reggie Miller
Elvin Hayes
Dolph Schayes
Nate Thurmond
Shawn Kemp
Alonzo Mourning
Kevin Johnson
Jerry Lucas
Robert Parish
Nate Thurmond
Paul Pierce
Pau Gasol (newest edition)

JordansBulls
09-01-2011, 08:34 AM
Vote: Isiah Thomas (led Pistons to back to back titles as the man a team that never won anything prior to him arriving.)
Nominate: Anfernee Hardaway

bootsy
09-01-2011, 10:18 AM
Can't believe Isiah is still on the unfreaking believable

JordansBulls
09-01-2011, 10:35 AM
I'm surprised Pippen and Stockton went as high as they did. I mean guys like Barry and Isiah led teams to titles, as well as Unseld, Cowens, Walton. Then you have guys who led teams to the finals as the clear best player in Payton and Drexler and Iverson and Kidd and also Ewing who is a dominant big.
Then you got multiple guys who won league mvp here in Cowens, Iverson, Unseld, Walton, Nash.

Hustlenomics
09-01-2011, 11:11 AM
-Big East Rookie of the Year award
-2X Big East Defensive Player of the Year
-First team AP All-American, 1996
-97 Rookie Of The Year
-97 Rookie Game MVP
-97 All Rookie First-Team
-7 x All-NBA Selection
-3 x steals champion(01,02,03)
-4 x NBA Scoring Champion(99,01,02,05)
-11 x NBA All-Star
-2 x NBA All-Star Game MVP(01,05)
-2001 NBA MVP
-1983 Career Steals (12th all-time)
-5624 Career Assists(4th Actively)
-24,368 Career Points in just 914 games played (17th all-time)
-One of only 5 players in NBA History to average at least 30 ppg and 8 apg in a season
-Career Average of 2.2 SPG(7th all-time)
-Career Average of 6.2 APG
-Career Average of 26.7 PPG(6th all-time)
-5 Consecutive games of 40+ points as a rookie
-Playoff Steal record
-Became fifth player ever to make an average of 30 points and seven assists in a season


VOTE: ALLEN IVERSON

Swashcuff
09-01-2011, 11:19 AM
I'm surprised Pippen and Stockton went as high as they did. I mean guys like Barry and Isiah led teams to titles, as well as Unseld, Cowens, Walton. Then you have guys who led teams to the finals as the clear best player in Payton and Drexler and Iverson and Kidd and also Ewing who is a dominant big.
Then you got multiple guys who won league mvp here in Cowens, Iverson, Unseld, Walton, Nash.

You have to understand that everyone's criteria for choosing a player is not the same as yours. I mean to lead a team to the finals in most cases you'd have to have a solid/great supporting cast.

I can't put Unseld ahead of Stockton and Pippen because he won an MVP award. He was the most underwhelming MVP winner in the history of the NBA. Accolades and team performance is only part of the criteria when making such a list. Are you going to penalize a player for playing alongside a top 15 player for the entirety of their best years in the NBA? IMO that's not fair.

JB you can't just say someone is better because their team was better and they had better accolades. You know that but you're so thick skulled you'd never admit it.

asandhu23
09-01-2011, 11:25 AM
why is Rick Barry so low? This is ridiculous. LeBron is rated above him? BULLLLLLLSHHIIIIIIIT

Gators123
09-01-2011, 12:02 PM
Isiah- led the Pistons to back-to-back championships.

pd7631
09-01-2011, 12:06 PM
Ai

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 12:17 PM
vote thomas, who should have went way earlier.

i think its also time to nominate artis gilmore.

AntiG
09-01-2011, 12:31 PM
Drexler. Should have gone much, much earlier.

JordansBulls
09-01-2011, 12:33 PM
You have to understand that everyone's criteria for choosing a player is not the same as yours. I mean to lead a team to the finals in most cases you'd have to have a solid/great supporting cast.

I can't put Unseld ahead of Stockton and Pippen because he won an MVP award. He was the most underwhelming MVP winner in the history of the NBA. Accolades and team performance is only part of the criteria when making such a list. Are you going to penalize a player for playing alongside a top 15 player for the entirety of their best years in the NBA? IMO that's not fair.

JB you can't just say someone is better because their team was better and they had better accolades. You know that but you're so thick skulled you'd never admit it.

Dude won league mvp, won finals mvp as the best player. But yet you want to put Stockton or Pippen ahead of him? Whether he was the mos underwhelming MVP winner in history is irrelevant when neither Pippen nor Stockton finished top 3 in MVP more than once or top 5 more than twice.

Swashcuff
09-01-2011, 12:44 PM
Dude won league mvp, won finals mvp as the best player. But yet you want to put Stockton or Pippen ahead of him? Whether he was the mos underwhelming MVP winner in history is irrelevant when neither Pippen nor Stockton finished top 3 in MVP more than once or top 5 more than twice.

How is it irrelevant?

By that reasoning Derrick Rose is already the 2nd best player in Bulls history and a top 5 PG.

JB again you have to come to the understanding that your method of evaluating a player's individual worth is in contradiction to the vast majority of knowledgeable NBA minds. You don't put a value into accolades nor do you dissect them. You don't break down team record vs individual production and try to understand how exactly that came about.

You stick to your method and other knowledgeable fans would stick theirs. I can bet you however that you will not find a single forum, rankings, writer etc who will agree that Wes Unself is better than John Stockton or Scottie Pippen because he won won an MVP and a FMVP. Why don't we put Willis Reed ahead of Barkley, Malone, KG, Dirk, LeBron, Elgin Baylor while we're at it then.

When debating the greatest players of all time you HAVE to be comprehensive and not selective. Stop preaching about what he won and start preaching about how he won it.

Soon Dwight Howard will have 5+ DPOY awards will we say he's the 2nd best defensive C of all time? Hell he already has more than Hakeem. Is he a better defensive C than Hakeem?

Swashcuff
09-01-2011, 12:45 PM
Vote: Isiah Thomas
Nominate: Artis Gilmore

pd7631
09-01-2011, 01:12 PM
Gimme AI over Isiah all day....here's why:


AI is 2nd All Time in playoff scoring average

AI has a higher PER than Isiah

AI has a higher win shares/48 than Isiah

AI has won MVP

If championships are the reason people think Isiah is a better player than Iverson, let me give you a few things to think about.....

1.) Isiah Thomas had 3 other Hall of Fame players on his first championship team, and 2 others on his second team. AI may have had 1 other Hall of Fame caliber player on the 01' team (Mutombo).

2.) AI ran into the 7th and 8th ranked players according to the PSD poll in their primes, the year he got to the Finals, and the best guy that AI ever played with in their prime will not even receive a thought of being nominated in this poll.

AI is one of only 2 players to score 50+ pts twice in a single playoff series.

AI's 33ppg in the 2001 playoffs is something that only MJ and Hakeem have done in as many games.


"When he came to the game, he gave you 110% of what you asked of him. You don't find too many teammates like that. I have played in this league for 18 years, and there's no 2, 3, or 4 guys that I can put in the same category as Allen Iverson"- Dikembe Mutombo

GhostfaceDrilla
09-01-2011, 01:15 PM
Someone tell me why in the hell Pau Gasol is on the poll?

NYKalltheway
09-01-2011, 01:18 PM
Someone tell me why in the hell Pau Gasol is on the poll?

for the fun of it

pd7631
09-01-2011, 01:19 PM
Someone tell me why in the hell Pau Gasol is on the poll?

Especially over a guy like Chris Webber. I don't get it either.

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 01:19 PM
Someone tell me why in the hell Pau Gasol is on the poll?
When you tell me why you dont complain about Shawn Kemp being in the list.

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 01:21 PM
Especially over a guy like Chris Webber. I don't get it either.

http://www.halloffamememorabilia.com/images/products/p-456425-pau-gasol-los-angeles-lakers-2010-nba-champions-bobblehead-cotg-bbhlachamp10-pg.jpg x2

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/190/034/Robert-Horry-s-game-winner-vs-Kings-los-angeles-lakers-8858019-666-579_display_image.jpg?1270508063
:D

pd7631
09-01-2011, 01:22 PM
When you tell me why you dont complain about Shawn Kemp being in the list.

He's not

pd7631
09-01-2011, 01:23 PM
http://www.halloffamememorabilia.com/images/products/p-456425-pau-gasol-los-angeles-lakers-2010-nba-champions-bobblehead-cotg-bbhlachamp10-pg.jpg x2

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/190/034/Robert-Horry-s-game-winner-vs-Kings-los-angeles-lakers-8858019-666-579_display_image.jpg?1270508063
:D


I guess Mark Madsen is better than C-Webb too, because he has more championships.

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 01:25 PM
He's not

he wa sin previous votations, i guess jb had the decency to tak ehim out

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 01:26 PM
I guess Mark Madsen is better than C-Webb too, because he has more championships.

yeah because mark madsen holds the same importance in getting those rings than Pau.......

pd7631
09-01-2011, 01:32 PM
yeah because mark madsen holds the same importance in getting those rings than Pau.......

C-Webb was the best player on his team, Pau was clearly number 2.

Pau had Kobe friggin Bryant and the best C-Webb had was Mike Bibby.


I just don't like the championship argument when you break things down to what they really are. Champisonships are a team accomplishment, and in many ways are not indicative of whether or not a single player is better than another player.

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 01:34 PM
C-Webb was the best player on his team, Pau was clearly number 2.

Pau had Kobe friggin Bryant and the best C-Webb had was Mike Bibby(bobby jakcson, PRIME MILLER, Divac, PRIME PEJA,prime christieeee TUrkoglu ......


I just don't like the championship argument when you break things down to what they really are. Champisonships are a team accomplishment, and in many ways are not indicative of whether or not a single player is better than another player.

take, pippen, stockton out of the list then, and delete all of the worhtys and parishes fromt eh votable list too.

Btw what were Bryants acomplishment in the years between Shaq and Pau?

Oh :D

Pau got robbed of the FINALS MVP in 2010 btw.

anyway i dont think we should be discussing pau already, IF he makes it to th elist it would be somwhere between 45 and 50.

bootsy
09-01-2011, 01:40 PM
I guess Mark Madsen is better than C-Webb too, because he has more championships.

:facepalm: I hate when people do this. When you know there is a clear difference why Madsen has a championship ring and Webber doesn't. Madsen was never the key or even a key player on a championship team or the reason why his team won championships. Webber was the best player on his team and one of the best in the league.

Swashcuff
09-01-2011, 01:49 PM
take, pippen, stockton out of the list then, and delete all of the worhtys and parishes fromt eh votable list too.

Btw what were Bryants acomplishment in the years between Shaq and Pau?

Oh :D

Pau got robbed of the FINALS MVP in 2010 btw.

anyway i dont think we should be discussing pau already, IF he makes it to th elist it would be somwhere between 45 and 50.

How exactly did Pau get robbed the FMVP?

Pau should not even be between 45-50, you are the only person who would put him between 45-50.

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 01:50 PM
How exactly did Pau get robbed the FMVP?

Pau should not even be between 45-50, you are the only person who would put him between 45-50.

No i wouldnt.
But since all kind of homeristic things are happeing then what the hell, lets be a homer too.


He WILL be a top 50 when his career is over tough.

Swashcuff
09-01-2011, 01:51 PM
Kemp is still on the first page and listed as a candidate but JB excluded him from the poll. It's a travesty in all honesty because he's not even top 100 IMO and should not be included this early.

Swashcuff
09-01-2011, 01:53 PM
No i wouldnt.
But since all kind of homeristic things are happeing then what the hell, lets be a homer too.


He WILL be a top 50 when his career is over tough.

How did Pau get robbed of the FMVP?

How can you defiantly say that? If Pau doesn't revert to his old self and continues his play from this past post season do you really think he cracks the top 50? C'mon Crooner we're not playing give us your bold prediction let's stick to what we know.

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 01:53 PM
^btw

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/17/sports/la-sp-dunleavy-finals-20100618


Im not the only one who thinks it, and i would assume
1 Mr Dunleavy has no relation with spain at all
2 Mr Dunleavy knows one thing or two bout basketball

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 01:56 PM
How did Pau get robbed of the FMVP?

How can you defiantly say that? If Pau doesn't revert to his old self and continues his play from this past post season do you really think he cracks the top 50? C'mon Crooner we're not playing give us your bold prediction let's stick to what we know.
he most probably will.

But sadly it will probably be In Orlando or New Orleans , or heck even Philly.......since Stupid Jim Buss WONT trade Bynum.

Hope he gets a further trade that puts him in a situation where he can WIN as the lead man of a team in Pistons 04 Style ( Hawks?)

pd7631
09-01-2011, 01:57 PM
he most probably will.

But sadly it will probably be In Orlando or New Orleans , or heck even Philly.......since Stupid Jim Buss WONT trade Bynum.

Hope he gets a further trade that puts him in a situation where he can WIN as the lead man of a team in Pistons 04 Style ( Hawks?)

That would be a great fit IMO.

NYKalltheway
09-01-2011, 01:57 PM
here comes the fun...

nominate:
Gene Shue

(let's go redraft team :) )

Swashcuff
09-01-2011, 02:03 PM
^btw

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/17/sports/la-sp-dunleavy-finals-20100618


Im not the only one who thinks it, and i would assume
1 Mr Dunleavy has no relation with spain at all
2 Mr Dunleavy knows one thing or two bout basketball

Crooner I would love YOUR analysis not Dunleavy's.

You break it down for me because I too can counter Dunleavy's argument and say that Kobe had a horrible final game shooting wise but prior to that he was slightly below average. I could say that against the premiere defensive team in the league Gasol only scored 20+ points 3 times in a 7 game series while Bryant scored 20+ all 7 games and on top of that had 3 30 point outings.

I could also say Kobe's defense on Ray Allen was a difference maker in that series. Hold Ray Ray to under 40% from the field and under 30% from the 3. The Lakers went where Kobe carried them, Pau followed. That's just my take on it however. What's yours?

Swashcuff
09-01-2011, 02:05 PM
he most probably will.

But sadly it will probably be In Orlando or New Orleans , or heck even Philly.......since Stupid Jim Buss WONT trade Bynum.

Hope he gets a further trade that puts him in a situation where he can WIN as the lead man of a team in Pistons 04 Style ( Hawks?)

For Gasol's sake (not yours) in terms of his legacy him being traded may not be that bad. Then we'd see how he's figure as a #1 option on a team with a quality supporting cast. We'd really be able to ascertain his true individual greatness and he'd finally get away from all the Kobe talk.

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 02:07 PM
Crooner I would love YOUR analysis not Dunleavy's.

You break it down for me because I too can counter Dunleavy's argument and say that Kobe had a horrible final game shooting wise but prior to that he was slightly below average. I could say that against the premiere defensive team in the league Gasol only scored 20+ points 3 times in a 7 game series while Bryant scored 20+ all 7 games and on top of that had 3 30 point outings.

I could also say Kobe's defense on Ray Allen was a difference maker in that series. Hold Ray Ray to under 40% from the field and under 30% from the 3. The Lakers went where Kobe carried them, Pau followed. That's just my take on it however. What's yours?

how bout you count that kobes "best" games came on DEFEATS while paus were on the WINS.
COunt the fg% kobe had in the series, i mean he keeps shooting and shooting until he is the top scorer.
How many of those nights kobe actually Shot the team out of the game?
what was the KEy diference between 08 and 10 finals? DEFENSE on cetlcis bigs adn Paus production ( kobes was similar).
So....

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 02:08 PM
For Gasol's sake (not yours) in terms of his legacy him being traded may not be that bad. Then we'd see how he's figure as a #1 option on a team with a quality supporting cast. We'd really be able to ascertain his true individual greatness and he'd finally get away from all the Kobe talk.

id rather have him bring 2 more rings to my TEAMS legacy ( lakers) than bump up HIS legacy wining 1 in other team to be honest.

Swashcuff
09-01-2011, 02:13 PM
how bout you count that kobes "best" games came on DEFEATS while paus were on the WINS.
COunt the fg% kobe had in the series, i mean he keeps shooting and shooting until he is the top scorer.
How many of those nights kobe actually Shot the team out of the game?
what was the KEy diference between 08 and 10 finals? DEFENSE on cetlcis bigs adn Paus production ( kobes was similar).
So....

Didn't Pau have 25, 8 and 6 blocks in a lost? When Kobe scored 21 points and shot 8-20 from the field? That was undoubtedly Pau's best game. They still lost. Matter of a fact 2 of the 3 times in which he scored 20+ they lost just like 2 of the 3 times Kobe scored 30+ they lost.

Did Kobe shoot his teams out of the games or did his teammates lack the fortitude to take a stand on the big stage put the team on their back and carry them to victory? I question if Pau wanted that or would have rather just played his complementary role.

What does the 08 Finals have to do with the 10 finals? The Celtics were much better and younger in 08. KG wasn't the same player he was then.

naps
09-01-2011, 02:27 PM
Allen Iverson.

THE MTL
09-01-2011, 04:50 PM
I vote for Isiah Thomas.

Reason: BECAUSE HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN GONE A LONG TIME AGO!

JordansBulls
09-02-2011, 11:10 AM
I would have thought Isiah should have gone long before Stockton.

Hellcrooner
09-02-2011, 11:12 AM
^he should have gone before MANy people in the list.

I mean he was Michaels worst nightmare, that should be worht something

Chronz
09-02-2011, 11:20 AM
OK Pau vs Kobe has no place here, since its not time for Pau anytime soon. But I will say that Kobe never defended Ray Allen, he was pretty much given a rest on defense by guarding (if you can call it that) Rondo.

THE GIPPER
09-02-2011, 11:39 AM
I dont see how pau can even go ahead of nash

Hellcrooner
09-02-2011, 11:44 AM
I dont see how pau can even go ahead of nash

he shouldnt, and wont.

nash should start receiving votes early.

its a travesty iverson is already receiving them and nash isnt.

KingPosey
09-02-2011, 12:27 PM
Man, no love for Mitch still...... disgusting.

3mikee_
09-02-2011, 12:47 PM
why is Rick Barry so low? This is ridiculous. LeBron is rated above him? BULLLLLLLSHHIIIIIIIT

This..

I went Cousy, I can't really justify it, it was more of a I don't like Isiah Thomas thing.

PatsSoxKnicks
09-02-2011, 12:55 PM
Vote: Isiah Thomas
Nominate: Artis Gilmore

Isiah over Walt? Make a case, I'm all ears. But I'm :pity: at you Swash. Walt is CLEARLY statistically superior. He was also a BETTER defender (7x all-nba 1st team defense which you'll notice Isiah never made.....)

They both were on 2 championship teams. Walt led those 2 teams just as much as Isiah did. But are we seriously giving Isiah the nod just because of his Finals MVP? It sure seems like it.

BTW, in that clinching game 7 against the Lakers in 70 (the Willis Reed inspiring appearance), it was Frazier who had 36 points and 19 assists. In a game 7 no less, against a Lakers team that had Wilt, Elgin Baylor and Jerry West (granted, they were all old but all were still good players and West was on the all-D team that year).

Swash, you were getting upset about JB's criteria, but it appears you're falling into the same trap. Isiah is a statistical bum in the regular season. Yes, he raised his game in the playoffs (and even then, he wasn't as good as Walt), but should the regular season be ignored?

As I've stated many times, he's about the equivalent of Gus Williams, but slightly better. This is way too early for Gus, so yes, this is too early for Isiah.

Win Shares:


career best 3 5 consc playoff 10 consc
Isiah 80.7 29.1 44.3 9.95 74.6
Walt 113.5 45.1 70.8 14.66 110.0


I can do them out for PER too, they won't be close. Walt had 7 consecutive seasons with 10+ win shares, Isiah had 1 in his entire career. As I said, statistically, these guys aren't in the same league. In Walt's 3 best years, he was also closer to winning an MVP than Isiah (for what thats worth).

Can't believe Isiah is going ahead of Walt :pity:

ShakeN'Bake
09-02-2011, 01:30 PM
Nominating: Pistol Pete

Gators123
09-02-2011, 03:04 PM
Isiah over Walt? Make a case, I'm all ears. But I'm :pity: at you Swash. Walt is CLEARLY statistically superior. He was also a BETTER defender (7x all-nba 1st team defense which you'll notice Isiah never made.....)

They both were on 2 championship teams. Walt led those 2 teams just as much as Isiah did. But are we seriously giving Isiah the nod just because of his Finals MVP? It sure seems like it.

BTW, in that clinching game 7 against the Lakers in 70 (the Willis Reed inspiring appearance), it was Frazier who had 36 points and 19 assists. In a game 7 no less.

Swash, you were getting upset about JB's criteria, but it appears you're falling into the same trap. Isiah is a statistical bum in the regular season. Yes, he raised his game in the playoffs (and even then, he wasn't as good as Walt), but should the regular season be ignored?

As I've stated many times, he's about the equivalent of Gus Williams, but slightly better. This is way too early for Gus, so yes, this is too early for Isiah.

Win Shares:


career best 3 5 consc playoff 10 consc
Isiah 80.7 29.1 44.3 9.95 74.6
Walt 113.5 45.1 70.8 14.66 110.0


I can do them out for PER too, they won't be close. Walt had 7 consecutive seasons with 10+ win shares, Isiah had 1 in his entire career. As I said, statistically, these guys aren't in the same league. In Walt's 3 best years, he was also closer to winning an MVP than Isiah (for what thats worth).

Can't believe Isiah is going ahead of Walt :pity:


:laugh2: Okay, so that proves stats don't mean everything. Anybody that watched Zeke would tell you he was FAR from a bum.

Stuckey#3
09-02-2011, 03:11 PM
Zeke... I don't feel like repeating myself again. Leader of two championship teams. ASG a billion times. Top 5 PGOAT.

PatsSoxKnicks
09-02-2011, 03:13 PM
:laugh2: Okay, so that proves stats don't mean everything. Anybody that watched Zeke would tell you he was FAR from a bum.

Ok, so maybe bum was extreme. But notice I said statistical and regular season, neither of which is really wrong.

And by the way, good job refuting that Isiah is better than Walt :rolleyes: Oh wait, there was nothing about it in your post. Still waiting for an explanation on why Isiah is better than Walt. I suspect some of the more knowledgeable posters (like Chronz) will agree with Walt > Isiah.

Also, accolade wise, Walt was better in MVP finishes in his 3 great years vs. anything that Isiah had ever done.

WHODAT8o8
09-02-2011, 03:33 PM
Someone tell me why in the hell Pau Gasol is on the poll?

ye IMO he wont even make HOF

JordansBulls
09-02-2011, 04:24 PM
ye IMO he wont even make HOF

He clearly will.

Lakersfan2483
09-02-2011, 06:46 PM
Isaiah Thomas is the best player left on the board. I am going with him. He was the best player on 2 title teams. He and his squad beat Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers. Beat Michael and the Bulls as well. Isaiah was one of a handful of guards to average 20 plus pts and 8 or more assts more than one time in his career (He did it 5 times. The only other point guards to avg. 20 or more pts and 8 or more assts, were Magic, Oscar, CP3, Gary Payton, KJ, and Tim Hardaway).

Nominate: Adrian Dantley, Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson

PatsSoxKnicks
09-03-2011, 09:31 AM
I can't believe Isiah is going this high. This is just as ridiculous as Stockton and Mikan going where they went. The worst part is we have some intelligent posters voting him over Walt, Ewing, Clyde, McHale, etc. Heck, I think a better case could be made for Cousy then Isiah.

And yes, I'm looking at you Swash. Defend your vote because I strongly disagree.

And where is Chronz? I feel like if he weighed in, there'd be less people on the Isiah bandwagon.

Hellcrooner
09-03-2011, 09:52 AM
ye IMO he wont even make HOF

lol.
he would have entered even if he never won a ring, just for his international career.

the only question remaining now is if he will enter at the first eligible year or later.

Hellcrooner
09-03-2011, 09:53 AM
Isaiah Thomas is the best player left on the board. I am going with him. He was the best player on 2 title teams. He and his squad beat Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers. Beat Michael and the Bulls as well. Isaiah was one of a handful of guards to average 20 plus pts and 8 or more assts more than one time in his career (He did it 5 times. The only other point guards to avg. 20 or more pts and 8 or more assts, were Magic, Oscar, CP3, Gary Payton, KJ, and Tim Hardaway).

Nominate: Adrian Dantley, Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson

no he isnt, but he is got one of the best resumes left.
im crediting him for pissing off jordan 3 out of 4 times.

Swashcuff
09-03-2011, 10:24 AM
I can't believe Isiah is going this high. This is just as ridiculous as Stockton and Mikan going where they went. The worst part is we have some intelligent posters voting him over Walt, Ewing, Clyde, McHale, etc. Heck, I think a better case could be made for Cousy then Isiah.

And yes, I'm looking at you Swash. Defend your vote because I strongly disagree.

And where is Chronz? I feel like if he weighed in, there'd be less people on the Isiah bandwagon.

I'm here bro.... about to make my attempt of defending your previous post now.

penny421
09-03-2011, 10:31 AM
he shouldnt, and wont.

nash should start receiving votes early.

its a travesty iverson is already receiving them and nash isnt.

I'm curious to see who will get voted first Nash or Kidd,they are very close in my opinion,Nash is better offensively and Kidd is better defensively.Both are two of the greatest play makers ever.

NYKalltheway
09-03-2011, 10:35 AM
Kidd>Nash

Hellcrooner
09-03-2011, 10:36 AM
I'm curious to see who will get voted first Nash or Kidd,they are very close in my opinion,Nash is better offensively and Kidd is better defensively.Both are two of the greatest play makers ever.

ill vote kidd before nash.

he is better all around and has always made his teamates better.
adding a late title is not gonna hurt his case to be honest.

penny421
09-03-2011, 10:37 AM
I can't believe Isiah is going this high. This is just as ridiculous as Stockton and Mikan going where they went. The worst part is we have some intelligent posters voting him over Walt, Ewing, Clyde, McHale, etc. Heck, I think a better case could be made for Cousy then Isiah.

And yes, I'm looking at you Swash. Defend your vote because I strongly disagree.

And where is Chronz? I feel like if he weighed in, there'd be less people on the Isiah bandwagon.

I agree with you.Isiah isn't even the best point guard left.I would take 5 PGs from the list before Isiah (Frazier,Cousy,Payton,Kidd,Nash).In my opinion Thomas is a borderline top 50 player at best.People overrate him because he won two championships but I'm not sure that he was the best player on those pistons teams,a very good case could be made for Joe Dumars.

Hellcrooner
09-03-2011, 10:40 AM
I agree with you.Isiah isn't even the best point guard left.I would take 5 PGs from the list before Isiah (Frazier,Cousy,Payton,Kidd,Nash).In my opinion Thomas is a borderline top 50 player at best.People overrate him because he won two championships but I'm not sure that he was the best player on those pistons teams,a very good case could be made for Joe Dumars.
cousys, Walts and Kidds cases can be made but not Paytons or Nash.

And Dumars being the best plaeyr is Laughable.

penny421
09-03-2011, 10:42 AM
ill vote kidd before nash.

he is better all around and has always made his teamates better.
adding a late title is not gonna hurt his case to be honest.

I agree,I'll vote for Kidd before Nash too and I'll probably vote for Payton before Nash as well.

Hellcrooner
09-03-2011, 10:45 AM
I agree,I'll vote for Kidd before Nash too and I'll probably vote for Payton before Nash as well.

Not me, i always found Payton a bit overated.

He is one of the best Defensive Pg ever ( not better than ALVIN ROBERTSOn tough) but im not sold on his playmaking skills and lack of success in his prime.

penny421
09-03-2011, 10:56 AM
cousys, Walts and Kidds cases can be made but not Paytons or Nash.

And Dumars being the best plaeyr is Laughable.

Why?
Dumars was clearly superior defensively and statistically they are very close.
For example,
In 1988-89 season :
Thomas averaged 18.2 points,8.3 assists,3.4 rebounds,a PER of 17.1,a WS/48 of 0.115 with 52.8 TS% and ORtg of 106.
Dumars averaged 17.2 points,5.7 assists and 2.5 rebounds,a PER of 16.8,a WS/48 0.140 with 57.1 TS% and ORtg of 114.

In 1988-89 playoffs:
Thomas averaged 18.2 points,8.3 assists,4.3 rebounds,a PER of 18.6,a WS/48 of 0.135 with 48.1 TS% and ORtg of 108.
Dumars averaged 17.6 points,5.6 assists and 2.6 rebounds,a PER of 17,a WS/48 0.160 with 54.1 TS% and ORtg of 117.

Hellcrooner
09-03-2011, 11:01 AM
^ so dumars scored one less point but only HALF the assists and rebounds per game and also had inferior win shares, so how can you argue him as better?

penny421
09-03-2011, 11:15 AM
^ so dumars scored one less point but only HALF the assists and rebounds per game and also had inferior win shares, so how can you argue him as better?

Dumars averaged one less point but played 2 less minutes(in the regular season) so their points per 36 minutes averages are almost the same.Dumars had superior win shares not inferior and better TS% and ORtg and was better defensively so the case could be made I believe.

btw I nominate Adrian Dantley (arguably the most underrated player of all time,he averaged 30+ PPG with a 60+ TS% for four consecutive seasons)
Artis Gilmore (one of the best centers of all time also very underrated)
Paul Arizin (one of the best players of the 50's,he was always among the best in PPG,WS,PER and TS% back then)

Swashcuff
09-03-2011, 06:37 PM
Isiah over Walt? Make a case, I'm all ears. But I'm :pity: at you Swash. Walt is CLEARLY statistically superior. He was also a BETTER defender (7x all-nba 1st team defense which you'll notice Isiah never made.....)

They both were on 2 championship teams. Walt led those 2 teams just as much as Isiah did. But are we seriously giving Isiah the nod just because of his Finals MVP? It sure seems like it.

So I went over all the numbers, accomplishments, support, opponents, accolades and I really couldn't formulate a solid case for Isiah over Walt. As you said in every category with the exclusion of the FMVP Walt is better and IMO was also the best player of his Knicks teams though not winning FMVP on either occasion.


BTW, in that clinching game 7 against the Lakers in 70 (the Willis Reed inspiring appearance), it was Frazier who had 36 points and 19 assists. In a game 7 no less, against a Lakers team that had Wilt, Elgin Baylor and Jerry West (granted, they were all old but all were still good players and West was on the all-D team that year).

Well I went over this and saw this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=953IPz0fJcA
http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1970.htm

No while he Box Score clearly states that he had 19 assists the video suggests otherwise. It was a phenomenal accomplishment regardless (36 pts 7 rebs and 9 asts) but maybe not as great as many have been lead to believe.


Swash, you were getting upset about JB's criteria, but it appears you're falling into the same trap. Isiah is a statistical bum in the regular season. Yes, he raised his game in the playoffs (and even then, he wasn't as good as Walt), but should the regular season be ignored?

I was not getting caught up per se. My case for Isiah was from the standpoint of being a leader of a quality team despite being a PG. His perceived superior defensive worth and his big game play. However after going over their comparison and reading a bit more I really can't say any of that is true about them. Isiah improved more when the playoffs came around but even his improvement was not greater than that of Walt's.

I always saw Isiah as a better pure PG and overlooked Walt because of that. I can certainly say now that he's a better passer but not a better player.


As I've stated many times, he's about the equivalent of Gus Williams, but slightly better. This is way too early for Gus, so yes, this is too early for Isiah.

I wouldn't agree with that. I would saw that Isiah is considerably better than Gus was at any point in his career. While statistically Gus has a strong case vs Isiah their intangible worth and accomplishments are what set them apart in this discussion.


Win Shares:


career best 3 5 consc playoff 10 consc
Isiah 80.7 29.1 44.3 9.95 74.6
Walt 113.5 45.1 70.8 14.66 110.0


I can do them out for PER too, they won't be close. Walt had 7 consecutive seasons with 10+ win shares, Isiah had 1 in his entire career. As I said, statistically, these guys aren't in the same league. In Walt's 3 best years, he was also closer to winning an MVP than Isiah (for what thats worth).

Can't believe Isiah is going ahead of Walt :pity:

No gripe with anything here.

All and All you have managed to change my opinion on this (and hopefully others as well). I can certainly say now that I made a mistake in choosing Isiah and overlooking Walt here. I'm changing my vote to Walt here.

MTar786
09-03-2011, 08:37 PM
psd clearly hates small guys. ie, thomas, iverson

ps. lol @ the pau vs kobe convos. pau doesnt belong on top 50. he might just make number 50 when his career is over.

PatsSoxKnicks
09-06-2011, 02:01 PM
Wrong thread lol