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JasonJohnHorn
08-31-2011, 03:12 PM
Some would argue that the center position is not what it used to be, and I would agree. But there are some players at that position playing today, as well as in years, before, who brought a huge impact to the floor and were seldom recognized for it. So my question to you is: Who do you think the most underrated center of all time is. And for guidelines I offer only this stipulations: He (or she if you are a WNBA fan) must have never been elected to an All-Star appearance, or been placed on an ALL-NBA team, for not being awarded such an honour would clearly make a great center underrated.

I'll throw a few names out there for you all to work with.

Bill Laimbeer: Great defender, great three point-shooter, and league leading rebounder during a time when some of the greatest centers were competing for the rebounding title, not to mention he helped lead his team to two NBA championships, three conference championships, and multiple division titles.


Sam Perkins: Great three-point shot, like Laimbeer, perfect player for the high pick-and-roll, solid rebounding numbers, great role player, decent shot blocker and not to bad with passing the rock, especially considering the assist-to-turnover ratios of other centers from his generation (and certainly more productive than the likes of Dwight Howard, Yao Ming and Moses Malone in that respect.

Al Jefferson: I can't believe this guy hasn't gotten an All-Star nod yet. For the last four seasons he's averaged close to 20/10 in a time when most other centers are incapable of offering their teams consistent scoring. He's a big body, decent shot blocker and though he's not that great a passer, he has improved over the years and last season posted more assists than turnovers.

Rony Seikaly: Did win the MIP one year, but despite helping leading a struggling expansion team to their first playoff appearance, didn't get much love from around the league. Averaged over a block-per on his career, consistently a double-digit rebounder who scored in the high teens, he would be considered a great center if thrown into the league today, but against Mourning, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Robison and Moses, he wasn't even good enough to get an all-star nod.

Hellcrooner
08-31-2011, 03:23 PM
Artis Gilmore.

You didnt even put him in your list being MILES ahead of all the one syou mentioned , wich further proves the point.

Stack_NJNets
08-31-2011, 03:23 PM
Big Al. This guy always gives 110% but just never found his mojo after Boston traded him. He needs to go to a contender that could use a C because he can really dominate at times. 16 points and 9 rebounds a game for his career. And good point, no idea how he's never been an all-star.

llemon
08-31-2011, 03:27 PM
Bob Lanier, Jack Sikma, Willis Reed

piston priest
08-31-2011, 03:30 PM
I think your rule of them never making an all star appearance is limited and flawed. Bill Laimbeer, for instance, was selected to the All-Star team four times.

Hawkeye15
08-31-2011, 03:39 PM
Lanier and Gilmore are very good choices.

asandhu23
08-31-2011, 03:43 PM
Nate Thurmond. we never hear his name mentioned among some of the greatest centers of all time.


Also Wes Unseld.

Sly Guy
08-31-2011, 03:45 PM
Vlade Divac. The guy single handedly changed the way the entire league plays post defence.

Hitman21
08-31-2011, 03:48 PM
Patrick Ewing...doesnt get enough credit for what he did for the knicks. if it wasnt for Starks in game 7 , Ewing would have a ring.

llemon
08-31-2011, 04:01 PM
Dave Cowens, Billy Paultz, Brad Daugherty

Hawkeye15
08-31-2011, 04:09 PM
Patrick Ewing...doesnt get enough credit for what he did for the knicks. if it wasnt for Starks in game 7 , Ewing would have a ring.

I always thought Ewing was a bit overrated actually

RZZZA
08-31-2011, 04:18 PM
Al Jefferson is inefficient...last year he was the second most inefficient center in the league for centers who play starter minutes.

ElFuturoDeESPN
08-31-2011, 04:18 PM
Arvydas Sabonis. Best passer of any big man I've ever seen.

Da Knicks
08-31-2011, 04:21 PM
Ewing people always want to put him down but without him the knicks would not have being relevant for a long while.

Hitman21
08-31-2011, 04:28 PM
I always thought Ewing was a bit overrated actually

Obviously you are entitled to your own opinion..but where would the knicks have been for those years if he wasnt on the team? Ewing wouldve won multiple titles if it wasnt for chicago beating them every year. Other than Chicago, there was no other team that could take them out every year in a 7 game series. Pacers did one time. Rockets did one time. But other than that, noone could run with the knicks. The team consisted of 1 star, and a bunch of role players, and Ewing was still able to carry them deep into the playoffs every year. In his prime, he was averaging 26 ppg 11 rebs, 3 blks, shooting over 50%. I am not sure how that equates to over rated...but, like i said thats yur opinion

D-Leethal
08-31-2011, 04:30 PM
If Sabonis play in the NBA during his prime he would be one of the best ever. Dude led the Russians to the gold medal over USA in '88. I think Rik Smits is pretty underrated as well.

D-Leethal
08-31-2011, 04:33 PM
Obviously you are entitled to your own opinion..but where would the knicks have been for those years if he wasnt on the team? Ewing wouldve won multiple titles if it wasnt for chicago beating them every year. Other than Chicago, there was no other team that could take them out every year in a 7 game series. Pacers did one time. Rockets did one time. But other than that, noone could run with the knicks. The team consisted of 1 star, and a bunch of role players, and Ewing was still able to carry them deep into the playoffs every year. In his prime, he was averaging 26 ppg 11 rebs, 3 blks, shooting over 50%. I am not sure how that equates to over rated...but, like i said thats yur opinion

Agreed. Ewing is known to NBA fans as more of a choker than an all time great. Dude never had a sidekick and gave the best team of all time with the best player of all time a bigger run for their money than anyone during the 90s (Phil Jackson said himself those Knick teams were the toughest teams they faced during the 6 championship years). If you look back at the 2nd best player on prime Ewing Knicks teams its pretty sad.

Hawkeye15
08-31-2011, 04:38 PM
Obviously you are entitled to your own opinion..but where would the knicks have been for those years if he wasnt on the team? Ewing wouldve won multiple titles if it wasnt for chicago beating them every year. Other than Chicago, there was no other team that could take them out every year in a 7 game series. Pacers did one time. Rockets did one time. But other than that, noone could run with the knicks. The team consisted of 1 star, and a bunch of role players, and Ewing was still able to carry them deep into the playoffs every year. In his prime, he was averaging 26 ppg 11 rebs, 3 blks, shooting over 50%. I am not sure how that equates to over rated...but, like i said thats yur opinion

Ewing was a great player. But I look at all his awards, and accolades, and see him on top 30 lists, and I don't think he belongs. Outside 89-90', he never had a playoff run where he dominated really. His advanced stats don't measure up to many other great centers, and I don't think he was a top 30 player in all reality.

Great player, but he disappeared so many times in the most crucial moments.

Chronz
08-31-2011, 04:45 PM
Artis Gilmore.

You didnt even put him in your list being MILES ahead of all the one syou mentioned , wich further proves the point.

You cant prove how underrated someone is by pointing to another guys list of underrated players. Its not about how good you are but the disparity between belief and reality. Gilmore disappointed in the NBA and that has made him underrated in the eyes of many so hes a good choice but its all based on your own perception.

JordansBulls
08-31-2011, 04:50 PM
Patrick Ewing. Dude was the starting center on the original dream team even over David Robinson. People act like Hakeem and Robinson were far better than him. They really didn't separate themselves from Ewing until 1994. Before that it can be argued that Ewing was better.

Chronz
08-31-2011, 04:53 PM
Obviously you are entitled to your own opinion..but where would the knicks have been for those years if he wasnt on the team? Ewing wouldve won multiple titles if it wasnt for chicago beating them every year. Other than Chicago, there was no other team that could take them out every year in a 7 game series. Pacers did one time. Rockets did one time. But other than that, noone could run with the knicks. The team consisted of 1 star, and a bunch of role players, and Ewing was still able to carry them deep into the playoffs every year. In his prime, he was averaging 26 ppg 11 rebs, 3 blks, shooting over 50%. I am not sure how that equates to over rated...but, like i said thats yur opinion
What years do you think they could have won?

I think your putting alot of stock into his series vs the Bulls. The Bulls had a giant hole in the middle, before Rodman/Bison Dele they didnt have many post players who could hold their own at the 5. That Ewing pushed them as far as he did was impressive but how much of that had to do with a matchup that wouldnt exist in the Final Rounds?

Hitman21
08-31-2011, 08:44 PM
What years do you think they could have won?

I think your putting alot of stock into his series vs the Bulls. The Bulls had a giant hole in the middle, before Rodman/Bison Dele they didnt have many post players who could hold their own at the 5. That Ewing pushed them as far as he did was impressive but how much of that had to do with a matchup that wouldnt exist in the Final Rounds?

Uhhh the same year they had a 3-2 lead in the finals. Bottom line if starks doesn't play game 7 we woulnt even be having this argument.

llemon
08-31-2011, 08:54 PM
Uhhh the same year they had a 3-2 lead in the finals. Bottom line if starks doesn't play game 7 we woulnt even be having this argument.

Not sure what that exactly means.

You do remember that Ewing did not guard Hakeem in that series. Knicks used WWF sensation Anthony Mason to keep Hakeem in a half or full Nelson.

Hakeem certainly did guard Ewing, though.

And there is no doubt Starks had a horrible game. Yet the Mastermind Knicks coach had him in there until the end, by which time Starks was no longer being guarded.

So we'll blame Riley.

But Ewing COULD NOT guard Hakeem, and rules were actually changed after that series.

effen5
08-31-2011, 08:57 PM
Luc Longley

LakersMaster24
08-31-2011, 08:59 PM
Gilmore for me.

Geargo Wallace
08-31-2011, 09:01 PM
D Rob

VillaMaravilla
08-31-2011, 09:01 PM
rik smits hands down

TheNumber37
08-31-2011, 09:09 PM
Where's the love for Marcus Camby? Efficient, good rebounder, passer, shot blocker, High IQ? I love his game.

Bruno
08-31-2011, 09:09 PM
I always thought Ewing was a bit overrated actually

x2. He wasn't very efficient.

His TS% in the '94 playoffs...I don't know how an elite all-time center cracks beneath .500 during the most crap-shoot/winnable playoffs of his career. Matching up against Hakeem for seven games didn't help...
but still.

ChiSox219
08-31-2011, 09:10 PM
Hakeem Olajuwon

Swashcuff
08-31-2011, 09:11 PM
Artis Gilmore.

You didnt even put him in your list being MILES ahead of all the one syou mentioned , wich further proves the point.


Nate Thurmond. we never hear his name mentioned among some of the greatest centers of all time.

My two choices right here.

Artis has the highest career TS% of any player all time, and was a really great two way player and Thurmond has a case for top 5 defensive C all time IMO. Both real great players who's name we rarely hear in the greatest Cs of all time convo.

Hell Artis Gilmore isn't even nominated on our top players of all time list and we are already 28 deep with 33 players being nominated ahead of him. I mean for God's sake Shawn Kemp is nominated and not Artis Gilmore? Utterly disrespectful if you ask me.

llemon
08-31-2011, 09:14 PM
rik smits hands down

I never underrated Rik Smits. He was a genuine go-to guy, and a very clutch scorer.

However, the philosophy behind his playing time was all wrong.

When Pacers were contenders, Rik Smits should not have played in the 1st half of important games.

He was a Center that was incredibly slow on defense, and therefore he easily put into foul trouble.

I truly believe that if Pacers had not put Smits on the court in the 2000 Finals until there were 18 minutes left in each game, Indiana would have an NBA Title to their credit.

asandhu23
08-31-2011, 09:15 PM
Al Jefferson is inefficient...last year he was the second most inefficient center in the league for centers who play starter minutes.

Numero Uno: Good old Andris Biedrins. :laugh2:

ChiSox219
08-31-2011, 09:18 PM
When I was young my dad went to car shows to sell/buy/trade collector cars and parts. One time i went with him to Indianopolis and Rik Smits (appararently a big car guy) was walking around. We grabbed two Pacers hats from a nearby vendor and to this day I still have both of those autographed hats.

I loved when the Pacers entire team shaved their head, Smits looked hilarious.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/328043.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193B3EA2C03450C94860B19B8BB9D84A04D 284831B75F48EF45

kingsdelez24
08-31-2011, 09:57 PM
Vlade Divac... the only nba player who could smoke 2 packs a day and still be an allstar.... True serbian right there

Chronz
08-31-2011, 10:08 PM
Uhhh the same year they had a 3-2 lead in the finals. Bottom line if starks doesn't play game 7 we woulnt even be having this argument.

Your not understanding my question, you were using MJ as the reason Ewing didnt win but you say he would have won the year MJ wasnt even in the league? How could he win the title in a year in which he choked hard?

goldenstater
08-31-2011, 10:28 PM
nate thurmond.

llemon
08-31-2011, 10:43 PM
nate thurmond.

Nate Thurmond would be rated higher if it didn't take the Warriors trading him for an (what seemed to be) inferior Center to bring a Title to SF/Golden State.

PS.....Thurmond was not a very good offensive player who insisted on getting his share of shots.

Similar to Sam Bowie with the Nets.

JasonJohnHorn
09-01-2011, 05:48 AM
Nate Thurmond. we never hear his name mentioned among some of the greatest centers of all time.


Also Wes Unseld.

Thurmond was amazing. The first player to record a quadrouple double!

JasonJohnHorn
09-01-2011, 05:54 AM
Agreed. Ewing is known to NBA fans as more of a choker than an all time great. Dude never had a sidekick and gave the best team of all time with the best player of all time a bigger run for their money than anyone during the 90s (Phil Jackson said himself those Knick teams were the toughest teams they faced during the 6 championship years). If you look back at the 2nd best player on prime Ewing Knicks teams its pretty sad.

The 90's you say? Technically, Jordan and the Bulls lost to the Pistons in the 90's, so I'd have to say the Pistons gave the Bulls the hardest time in the 90's. They are the only team to really beat the Bulls (Orlando doesn't count, because Jordan wasn't in prime shape and they didn't have a PF).

No respect for the Bad Boys. How quickly we forget that the Bulls lost 3 out of 4 series against them.

JasonJohnHorn
09-01-2011, 05:56 AM
Where's the love for Marcus Camby? Efficient, good rebounder, passer, shot blocker, High IQ? I love his game.

Great pick!

Chronz
09-01-2011, 06:42 AM
Greg Ostertag

He eliminated D-Rob, Dream and Shaq to make it to the Finals once

Oski H
09-01-2011, 08:26 AM
Luc Longley

2nded

Hitman21
09-01-2011, 08:45 AM
Your not understanding my question, you were using MJ as the reason Ewing didnt win but you say he would have won the year MJ wasnt even in the league? How could he win the title in a year in which he choked hard?


93-94 Jordan was not in the nba..which is the same year the knicks went to game 7 of the finals. He wasnt the one who choked that year..starks was. Like i said...everyone is entitled to their opinion, and imo Ewing is vastly underrated, and the fact that we are even having this conversation just proves my point. Anyways..i dont even know why i have to argue an opinion based thread.

Tanakid777
09-01-2011, 09:05 AM
Jack Sikma

D-Leethal
09-01-2011, 09:35 AM
The 90's you say? Technically, Jordan and the Bulls lost to the Pistons in the 90's, so I'd have to say the Pistons gave the Bulls the hardest time in the 90's. They are the only team to really beat the Bulls (Orlando doesn't count, because Jordan wasn't in prime shape and they didn't have a PF).

No respect for the Bad Boys. How quickly we forget that the Bulls lost 3 out of 4 series against them.

umm what? Jordan lost to the Pistons in 1990. Jordan won 3 straight rings from '91-93. He won 3 more from '96-'98. Pistons were no longer a factor by than. You are thinking late 80s.

90-91 Knicks lose to Bulls first round
91-92 Knicks lose to Bulls second round in 7
92-93 Knicks lose to Bulls in conference finals in 6
95-96 Knicks lose to Bulls second round in 5

Read Phil Jacksons book 'Sacred Hoops'...........the man says it himself.....

Nice try bud ;)

Dave Cowens is also pretty underrated and isn't mention as one of the GOAT Centers. He manned the paint for (at the time) the 2nd best team ever with 68 wins....

Hitman21
09-01-2011, 09:57 AM
umm what? Jordan lost to the Pistons in 1990. Jordan won 3 straight rings from '91-93. He won 3 more from '96-'98. Pistons were no longer a factor by than. You are thinking late 80s.

90-91 Knicks lose to Bulls first round
91-92 Knicks lose to Bulls second round in 7
92-93 Knicks lose to Bulls in conference finals in 6
95-96 Knicks lose to Bulls second round in 5

Read Phil Jacksons book 'Sacred Hoops'...........the man says it himself.....

Nice try bud ;)

Dave Cowens is also pretty underrated and isn't mention as one of the GOAT Centers. He manned the paint for (at the time) the 2nd best team ever with 68 wins....

This^. The greatest coach Of all time with the greatest player of all time. On the greatest team of all time had their biggest rivalry with the Knicks and Ewing is overrated? The fact that Ewing was left off the Hall of Fame this year further proves my point. I know there are alot of knick haters but this is just ridiculous

setman2000
09-01-2011, 10:08 AM
Blair Rasmussen.

Hellcrooner
09-01-2011, 10:10 AM
Blair Rasmussen.

lol, raef lafrentz of the 80s? dont think so.

Chronz
09-01-2011, 01:05 PM
93-94 Jordan was not in the nba..which is the same year the knicks went to game 7 of the finals. He wasnt the one who choked that year..starks was. Like i said...everyone is entitled to their opinion, and imo Ewing is vastly underrated, and the fact that we are even having this conversation just proves my point. Anyways..i dont even know why i have to argue an opinion based thread.

Because your opinion (That MJ prevented Ewing from winning) doesnt hold up for the season you used because MJ was out of the league and he still lost.

Again which years do you think the Knicks could have won if only MJ wasnt around, try choosing a year in which MJ didnt play.

Hitman21
09-01-2011, 01:20 PM
Because your opinion (That MJ prevented Ewing from winning) doesnt hold up for the season you used because MJ was out of the league and he still lost.

Again which years do you think the Knicks could have won if only MJ wasnt around, try choosing a year in which MJ didnt play.

Seriously dude..get off my nutsack. Like i said, this is my opinion. You can sit there and argue all you want..its not gonna change my opinion. Go hassle someone else. Ewing was underrated...even if he never had a shot at winning a title. And just because your too slow to understand..what im saying is,out of the 6 years that the bulls won, if jordan wasnt in the league...the knicks would have atleast won 1 championship. The fact that they went to game 7 of the finals the first year jordan retired further proves my point. To say that there was no chance in hell they would have, is just ignorant. maybe your too young and dont know what your talking about, i really dont care...but thats my stance, and im sticking to it.

Wisdom Listens
09-01-2011, 02:10 PM
Big Al. This guy always gives 110% but just never found his mojo after Boston traded him. He needs to go to a contender that could use a C because he can really dominate at times. 16 points and 9 rebounds a game for his career. And good point, no idea how he's never been an all-star.

Jefferson isn't even a true C, he's more of a PF. Whenever he does play the 5 he gets owned.

Chronz
09-01-2011, 02:13 PM
Seriously dude..get off my nutsack. Like i said, this is my opinion. You can sit there and argue all you want..its not gonna change my opinion. Go hassle someone else. Ewing was underrated...even if he never had a shot at winning a title. And just because your too slow to understand..what im saying is,out of the 6 years that the bulls won, if jordan wasnt in the league...the knicks would have atleast won 1 championship. The fact that they went to game 7 of the finals the first year jordan retired further proves my point. To say that there was no chance in hell they would have, is just ignorant. maybe your too young and dont know what your talking about, i really dont care...but thats my stance, and im sticking to it.

lol I never inquired about what you thought of Ewing, my question to you was strictly about the years you felt Ewing could have won if not for MJ. You chose the wrong season because of the fact that MJ wasnt in the league and couldnt win.

Your letting your insecurities prevent you from understanding the discussion at hand, "To say that there was no chance in hell they would have, is just ignorant."

Put your guard down I never said that, Im not hassling anyone, Im asking you question about your opinion.

Like you stated here;
And just because your too slow to understand..what im saying is,out of the 6 years that the bulls won, if jordan wasnt in the league...the knicks would have atleast won 1 championship.

Ive been asking for which years from the first post, good to see your all caught up, now, care to answer the question? Or do you not put much thought into your hypothetical?

Wisdom Listens
09-01-2011, 02:14 PM
Hakeem Olajuwon

How is Hakeem underrated? Find one all-time centers list where he isn't at least top 10.

Chronz
09-01-2011, 02:17 PM
Where's the love for Marcus Camby? Efficient, good rebounder, passer, shot blocker, High IQ? I love his game.
Stole 1 too many DPOY's and All-Defensive Selections for my liking.

marj987
09-01-2011, 02:22 PM
Gotta give Camby his props, the guy was a playmaking center, and a monster on defense.

djeller1139
09-01-2011, 02:27 PM
Sabonis.

llemon
09-01-2011, 02:30 PM
Gotta give Camby his props, the guy was a playmaking center, and a monster on defense.

Well, a very good shotblocker and rebounder.

GBChamps
09-01-2011, 02:33 PM
Sam dalembert

nickdymez
09-01-2011, 03:35 PM
Ewing was a great player. But I look at all his awards, and accolades, and see him on top 30 lists, and I don't think he belongs. Outside 89-90', he never had a playoff run where he dominated really. His advanced stats don't measure up to many other great centers, and I don't think he was a top 30 player in all reality.

Great player, but he disappeared so many times in the most crucial moments.

Im honestly not trying to start anything.. But advanced stats is a fairly new thing compared to how long the leagues been around.. I think advanced stats started being used (I guess because i only see it used on psd and that website you guys always quote) like in 01. So before 01 would you have thought he was a great center? My point is that advanced stats is ruining the game when someone says pat ewing wasnt great because his advanced stats werent there, but he averaged 26,11, and 3 and constantly took the greatest player of all time to the brink, team for team..

D-Leethal
09-01-2011, 03:41 PM
Because your opinion (That MJ prevented Ewing from winning) doesnt hold up for the season you used because MJ was out of the league and he still lost.

Again which years do you think the Knicks could have won if only MJ wasnt around, try choosing a year in which MJ didnt play.

Well considering the first year they got to game 7 of the finals the first year MJ was gone (and were 1 buzzer beater blocked shot away from winning in 6, and John Starks going 1-18 in game 7) I think its safe to say if you gave Ewing 6 of those Bulls championship years he probably would have won one. People say 'Pat Riley should have benched Starks, but who else was going to give Ewing the second scoring punch they needed? Thats how mediocre his cast was, you had to live and die with an inconsistent John Starks (a modern day Jamal Crawford with D) as your second scoring option and when he was off you had no second scoring option.

My whole thing with Ewing being underrated is that he never had a sidekick. He was the only superstar on a great defensive team with role players and no consistent reliable second scoring option. Hakeem was in the same boat and he won, which is why he gets his due as a top 3-5 C of all time. If Ewing won one more game in '94 he would get the same props, but he didn't so he is not considered an all time great. And 1 game (1 being a 1-2 point loss) being the reason you are not considered an all time great and instead a choker to me is grounds for being underrated.

The Bulls argument is just stating how Ewing as the only HOFer/all star on his team gave the best team/player/coach of all time a bigger battle than any other team during that stretch, meaning he must have been pretty damn good, and I don't think he gets his due for how great he truly was, and people would rather remember the one game or one moment he 'choked' instead of remembering all the clutch plays/leadership/carrying a mediocre cast on his back to get there in the first place.

Hawkeye15
09-01-2011, 03:43 PM
Im honestly not trying to start anything.. But advanced stats is a fairly new thing compared to how long the leagues been around.. I think advanced stats started being used (I guess because i only see it used on psd and that website you guys always quote) like in 01. So before 01 would you have thought he was a great center? My point is that advanced stats is ruining the game when someone says pat ewing wasnt great because his advanced stats werent there, but he averaged 26,11, and 3 and constantly took the greatest player of all time to the brink, team for team..

When I was in my teens and 20's (Ewings entire career), I didn't think he was as good as Hakeem, Robinson, or even Shaq (though he came in during the later Ewing years). I even thought Zo' was as good as him.

I thought he disappeared in a lot of crucial moments, and outside 89-90', he never stood out to me in the playoffs as a dominant force.

Obviously now that we have tools to put their numbers in, it confirms my opinion to myself personally, but yeah, I never thought he was as good as his public perception, despite putting up good numbers.

Now, I don't want people to think I don't hold Ewing in high regard. I think he is a great player. But when I see the list of his awards, accolades, and him sitting in the top 20-30 of all time rankings, I think he is overrated.

Hell, I even went to the Trent Tucker camp 2 years in a row in Minnesota, and he was a Knick at that time. Ewing visited the camp and did a little workout. He looked so damn slow to me.

Great player. Just overrated in the scheme of things to me.

nickdymez
09-01-2011, 03:51 PM
When I was in my teens and 20's (Ewings entire career), I didn't think he was as good as Hakeem, Robinson, or even Shaq (though he came in during the later Ewing years). I even thought Zo' was as good as him.

I thought he disappeared in a lot of crucial moments, and outside 89-90', he never stood out to me in the playoffs as a dominant force.

Obviously now that we have tools to put their numbers in, it confirms my opinion to myself personally, but yeah, I never thought he was as good as his public perception, despite putting up good numbers.

Now, I don't want people to think I don't hold Ewing in high regard. I think he is a great player. But when I see the list of his awards, accolades, and him sitting in the top 20-30 of all time rankings, I think he is overrated.

Hell, I even went to the Trent Tucker camp 2 years in a row in Minnesota, and he was a Knick at that time. Ewing visited the camp and did a little workout. He looked so damn slow to me.

Great player. Just overrated in the scheme of things to me.

Well i agree with that. Those are top 7 centers of all time.. But im glad you clarified for me. I thought you were going strictly off advanced stats. I dont think i have him top 20,maybe top 30...

D-Leethal
09-01-2011, 03:52 PM
When I was in my teens and 20's (Ewings entire career), I didn't think he was as good as Hakeem, Robinson, or even Shaq (though he came in during the later Ewing years). I even thought Zo' was as good as him.

I thought he disappeared in a lot of crucial moments, and outside 89-90', he never stood out to me in the playoffs as a dominant force.

Obviously now that we have tools to put their numbers in, it confirms my opinion to myself personally, but yeah, I never thought he was as good as his public perception, despite putting up good numbers.

Now, I don't want people to think I don't hold Ewing in high regard. I think he is a great player. But when I see the list of his awards, accolades, and him sitting in the top 20-30 of all time rankings, I think he is overrated.

Hell, I even went to the Trent Tucker camp 2 years in a row in Minnesota, and he was a Knick at that time. Ewing visited the camp and did a little workout. He looked so damn slow to me.

Great player. Just overrated in the scheme of things to me.

IDK, stats aside, the man led a perennial contender with no legit #2. Without a legit #2 he brought the best team of all time to the brink year after year and made them earn every thing they got. The only center that proved he could win with as poor a supporting cast as Ewing was Hakeem. Shaq couldn't without Kobe/Wade even with Penny, DRob couldn't even come close til Duncan, Zo got beat nearly every year by an old past his prime Ewing who could barely run up and down the court.

If Ewing wasn't that good why were the Knicks always contending and one of the top teams in the league during the 90s when his supporting cast was so poor? Has anyone (outside of Hakeem, and you could argue Dirk) won with NO legit #2 option ?

Also keep in mind he was the defensive anchor for some of the best and most rugged defensive teams that have ever graced the hardwood

llemon
09-01-2011, 03:53 PM
Well considering the first year they got to game 7 of the finals the first year MJ was gone (and were 1 buzzer beater blocked shot away from winning in 6, and John Starks going 1-18 in game 7) I think its safe to say if you gave Ewing 6 of those Bulls championship years he probably would have won one. People say 'Pat Riley should have benched Starks, but who else was going to give Ewing the second scoring punch they needed? Thats how mediocre his cast was, you had to live and die with an inconsistent John Starks (a modern day Jamal Crawford with D) as your second scoring option and when he was off you had no second scoring option.

My whole thing with Ewing being underrated is that he never had a sidekick. He was the only superstar on a great defensive team with role players and no consistent reliable second scoring option. Hakeem was in the same boat and he won, which is why he gets his due as a top 3-5 C of all time. If Ewing won one more game in '94 he would get the same props, but he didn't so he is not considered an all time great. And 1 game (1 being a 1-2 point loss) being the reason you are not considered an all time great and instead a choker to me is grounds for being underrated.

The Bulls argument is just stating how Ewing as the only HOFer/all star on his team gave the best team/player/coach of all time a bigger battle than any other team during that stretch, meaning he must have been pretty damn good, and I don't think he gets his due for how great he truly was, and people would rather remember the one game or one moment he 'choked' instead of remembering all the clutch plays/leadership/carrying a mediocre cast on his back to get there in the first place.

The reason Ewing and his 'mediocre cast' got to a game 7 versus Rockets was because Knicks were allowed to play "WrestleMania Basketball".

Ewing didn't (and couldn't) guard Hakeem. Anthony Mason just kept Hakeem in a headlock most of the time.

The rules of NBA defense were forever changed because of that series, and Ewing still couldn't deliver with that kind of advantage.

WildcatsPride
09-01-2011, 03:54 PM
Of today: Al Jefferson
Of yesterday: Nate Thurmond, Arvydas Sabonis, Bill Laimbeer, Artis Gilmore

Hawkeye15
09-01-2011, 03:59 PM
IDK, stats aside, the man led a perennial contender with no legit #2. Without a legit #2 he brought the best team of all time to the brink year after year and made them earn every thing they got. The only center that proved he could win with as poor a supporting cast as Ewing was Hakeem. Shaq couldn't without Kobe/Wade even with Penny, DRob couldn't even come close til Duncan, Zo got beat nearly every year by an old past his prime Ewing who could barely run up and down the court.

If Ewing wasn't that good why were the Knicks always contending and one of the top teams in the league during the 90s when his supporting cast was so poor? Has anyone (outside of Hakeem, and you could argue Dirk) won with NO legit #2 option ?

Also keep in mind he was the defensive anchor for some of the best and most rugged defensive teams that have ever graced the hardwood


Look, I am not going to debate a Knicks fan about one of their biggest players in history. I am simply giving my personal opinion. I never saw him carry a team, I saw him shy away at huge moments, and when they ran into great centers, Ewing didn't even guard them a lot of the time.

I just think there is no way on earth someone should list him as underrated. Which is how my initial response came about.

D-Leethal
09-01-2011, 04:08 PM
The reason Ewing and his 'mediocre cast' got to a game 7 versus Rockets was because Knicks were allowed to play "WrestleMania Basketball".

Ewing didn't (and couldn't) guard Hakeem. Anthony Mason just kept Hakeem in a headlock most of the time.

The rules of NBA defense were forever changed because of that series, and Ewing still couldn't deliver with that kind of advantage.

You going to tell me he didn't have a mediocre cast? No one on those teams even crack top 150 players ever, and probably not even 200. How many superstars win rings without at least another HOFer or perennial all star? 1? 2?

And every team in the NBA was allowed to play that type of D back than. Bulls played that type of D. Pacers played that type of D. It wasn't just a 'oh lets let the Knicks play rugby style defense but no other team'

And Mason didn't exclusively guard Hakeem. I would say Ewing and Mason split time pretty evenly against Hakeem. And while Ewing shot very poorly he averaged 12.4 boards per game to Hakeems 9 and set a record for blocked shots in a finals series.

Not going to sit here and say Ewing was better than Olajuwon, because he wasn't. But who could guard Hakeem? Hakeem schooled Shaq just as bad and embarassed MVP Robinson even worse than any of them.

What 'advantage' did Ewing have? The fact that less fouls were called back than? How is that only an advantage for Ewing? I don't see any facts in your statement, just hyperbole and your opinion.

So Ewing was outplayed by arguably a top 3 center of all time so that means hes garbage? Doesn't the fact that he had NO LEGIT #2 to shoulder the scoring load when he was being guarded by arguably the best defensive C ever help his cause for being underrated? Because he had nobody to help him get it done when he was cold/being D'ed up by a defensive legend?

Hawkeye15
09-01-2011, 04:14 PM
Well i agree with that. Those are top 7 centers of all time.. But im glad you clarified for me. I thought you were going strictly off advanced stats. I dont think i have him top 20,maybe top 30...

I never judge a player on advanced stats alone. That would be idiotic.

llemon
09-01-2011, 04:14 PM
You going to tell me he didn't have a mediocre cast? No one on those teams even crack top 150 players ever, and probably not even 200. How many superstars win rings without at least another HOFer or perennial all star? 1? 2?

And every team in the NBA was allowed to play that type of D back than. Bulls played that type of D. Pacers played that type of D. It wasn't just a 'oh lets let the Knicks play rugby style defense but no other team'

And Mason didn't exclusively guard Hakeem. I would say Ewing and Mason split time pretty evenly against Hakeem. And while Ewing shot very poorly he averaged 12.4 boards per game to Hakeems 9 and set a record for blocked shots in a finals series.

Not going to sit here and say Ewing was better than Olajuwon, because he wasn't. But who could guard Hakeem? Hakeem schooled Shaq just as bad and embarassed MVP Robinson even worse than any of them.

What 'advantage' did Ewing have? The fact that less fouls were called back than? How is that only an advantage for Ewing? I don't see any facts in your statement, just hyperbole and your opinion.

So Ewing was outplayed by arguably a top 3 center of all time so that means hes garbage? Doesn't the fact that he had NO LEGIT #2 to shoulder the scoring load when he was being guarded by arguably the best defensive C ever help his cause for being underrated? Because he had nobody to help him get it done when he was cold/being D'ed up by a defensive legend?

Sorry, no team got away with physical defense more than Riley's Knicks. As I said, the rules were changed because of that Finals series.

And didn't Hakeem also have a 'mediocre supporting cast'?

Who was Hakeem's LEGIT#2 scoring threat?

D-Leethal
09-01-2011, 04:19 PM
Look, I am not going to debate a Knicks fan about one of their biggest players in history. I am simply giving my personal opinion. I never saw him carry a team, I saw him shy away at huge moments, and when they ran into great centers, Ewing didn't even guard them a lot of the time.

I just think there is no way on earth someone should list him as underrated. Which is how my initial response came about.

I respect your opinion but I disagree and think you are cherry picking 2-3 'huge moments' and pretending that about 100 huge moments where he came through didn't even happen. The dude had hit the game winner of the ECF in 1994 to get them to the freakin finals and people don't even acknowledge that.

And if he didn't carry the Knicks all those years who the hell did? And outside of the finals with Hakeem, when did Ewing not guard these great centers? He didn't guard Hakeem straight up because they refused to double with all of the Rockets 3 point shooters and lord knows whoever is guarding Hakeem 1 on 1 is going to get into some foul trouble (and Ewing was the heart and soul of that team and they would crumble the second he was on the bench with foul trouble)

Hawkeye15
09-01-2011, 04:19 PM
Sorry, no team got away with physical defense more than Riley's Knicks. As I said, the rules were changed because of that Finals series.

And didn't Hakeem also have a 'mediocre supporting cast'?

Who was Hakeem's LEGIT#2 scoring threat?

in their 93-94' run? Veron freakin Maxwell and his whopping 13 a game.

Hakeem had minimal help throughout that playoffs, but he played incredible.

D-Leethal
09-01-2011, 04:23 PM
Sorry, no team got away with physical defense more than Riley's Knicks. As I said, the rules were changed because of that Finals series.

And didn't Hakeem also have a 'mediocre supporting cast'?

Who was Hakeem's LEGIT#2 scoring threat?

I already said Hakeem didn't. He was surrounded by great 3 point shooters (similar to Dirk this year). Thats why I said Hakeem is considered a top 3-5 all time C and Ewing isn't. Thats why I said there are probably 2 guys who won a chip without another allstar/HOFer in his prime on their team. Hakeem was one of them. And if Starks hit his shot in game 6 we are talking about Ewing also as a top 3-5 all time C, but since they lost game 6 and 7 he is overrated and a 'choker', which I believe is grounds for someone being underrated, because all of his accomplishments are thrown under the bus because of a 2 point loss and he is instead considered a guy who wilted under pressure (which is completely not true if you follow the mans career)

And what rules were changed in 1994 exactly? I don't remember rules being changed until the early 00's......I'd say the late 90s Knicks-Heat were just as physical and rugby style as the Knicks-Bulls of the early 90s.

Hawkeye15
09-01-2011, 04:23 PM
I respect your opinion but I disagree and think you are cherry picking 2-3 'huge moments' and pretending that about 100 huge moments where he came through didn't even happen. The dude had hit the game winner of the ECF in 1994 to get them to the freakin finals and people don't even acknowledge that.

And if he didn't carry the Knicks all those years who the hell did? And outside of the finals with Hakeem, when did Ewing not guard these great centers? He didn't guard Hakeem straight up because they refused to double with all of the Rockets 3 point shooters and lord knows whoever is guarding Hakeem 1 on 1 is going to get into some foul trouble (and Ewing was the heart and soul of that team and they would crumble the second he was on the bench with foul trouble)

again, I think he was a great player. But I think he is overrated in the grand scheme of things. I will leave it at that.

I honestly think you are underrating his cast btw. Its the same argument that many Rose fans are using now.

I just thought growing up, Ewing didn't appear to me on the same level as a few of his peers, and the media was always telling me he did. But hey, this is from the eye's of a Wolves and Bulls fan at the time. I didn't have any passion for the Knicks at all. You must understand non-Knicks fans honestly thought the style they played was excruciating to watch haha. Sorry, I don't mean that as a slight at all.

D-Leethal
09-01-2011, 04:24 PM
in their 93-94' run? Veron freakin Maxwell and his whopping 13 a game.

Hakeem had minimal help throughout that playoffs, but he played incredible.

not denying this at all. '94 Rockets had the worst supporting cast to ever win a ring. But who else did that besides Hakeem? Could Shaq do it? Robinson? Kobe? Who else won rings with such a bad cast? But since Ewing couldn't hes the only one who is overrated?

Chronz
09-01-2011, 04:28 PM
Well considering the first year they got to game 7 of the finals the first year MJ was gone (and were 1 buzzer beater blocked shot away from winning in 6, and John Starks going 1-18 in game 7) I think its safe to say if you gave Ewing 6 of those Bulls championship years he probably would have won one.
Then Ill ask you the same thing I asked him, WHEN? Which year do you feel he could have led his team to a title because you cant simply point at what he did his first year without MJ as if the team played at that level consistently throughout his tenure.

1994 just so happened to be the year the Knicks posted the Highest SRS of Ewings career, they were defending at a level of efficiency that only a handful of squads have ever replicated and even then they lost. So that means the opponent in the Finals would have to be weaker or be at a disadvantage in the matchups department for Ewing to win a ring because that was Ewings best team. IMO they had a 3 year window (Max) in which they were legit contenders and that came from 92-94. The rest of the years they didnt really post #'s typically associated with the best teams in the league and/or he would lose to teams like the Pacers, Heat in the non-Bulls defeats.


People say 'Pat Riley should have benched Starks, but who else was going to give Ewing the second scoring punch they needed? Thats how mediocre his cast was, you had to live and die with an inconsistent John Starks (a modern day Jamal Crawford with D) as your second scoring option and when he was off you had no second scoring option.

My whole thing with Ewing being underrated is that he never had a sidekick. He was the only superstar on a great defensive team with role players and no consistent reliable second scoring option. Hakeem was in the same boat and he won, which is why he gets his due as a top 3-5 C of all time. If Ewing won one more game in '94 he would get the same props, but he didn't so he is not considered an all time great. And 1 game (1 being a 1-2 point loss) being the reason you are not considered an all time great and instead a choker to me is grounds for being underrated.

Im not people, the only thing I held against Ewing was him not showing up offensively. His team forced a G.7 with him shooting horrendously, that speaks to the teams defensive worth and it begs the question if Ewing hadnt been locked down, would his team have won?

Hakeem and Ewing were not in the same boat, lets say for argument sake that Dream loses that Finals, you really think Ewing barely touching 40% shooting and being vastly outplayed by his counterpart would raise his stature to the same degree as Hakeem DOMINATING on route to a title? Obviously Ewing is remembered slightly differently but it doesnt put him in the same level as Hakeem/Drob.



The Bulls argument is just stating how Ewing as the only HOFer/all star on his team gave the best team/player/coach of all time a bigger battle than any other team during that stretch, meaning he must have been pretty damn good, and I don't think he gets his due for how great he truly was, and people would rather remember the one game or one moment he 'choked' instead of remembering all the clutch plays/leadership/carrying a mediocre cast on his back to get there in the first place.

Yea but nobody denies that he was pretty good and like I told the other guy, matchups matter. Them pushing the Bulls to 7 is impressive but it only happened once and the Bulls were lacking in the middle. One of the greatest benefits to MJ was the fact that he was able to avoid teams with dominant bigmen for the most part, the 2 teams that pushed those Bulls to 7 had quality centers. Ewing gets full credit for creating that matchup problem, but I was never disputing this.

D-Leethal
09-01-2011, 04:30 PM
again, I think he was a great player. But I think he is overrated in the grand scheme of things. I will leave it at that.

I honestly think you are underrating his cast btw. Its the same argument that many Rose fans are using now.

I just thought growing up, Ewing didn't appear to me on the same level as a few of his peers, and the media was always telling me he did. But hey, this is from the eye's of a Wolves and Bulls fan at the time. I didn't have any passion for the Knicks at all. You must understand non-Knicks fans honestly thought the style they played was excruciating to watch haha. Sorry, I don't mean that as a slight at all.

Fair enough, I'm not trying to get hostile here at all if it appears that way. I actually enjoy this thread and debate, haven't seen a thread worth posting in either here or Knicks forum in months.....

I think he had great defensive role players but no legitimate #2 scoring option......which EVERY championship team outside of the 94 Rockets had. Mavs this year are close but I'd say Terry is a pretty damn good #2 scoring option.

I can see the parallels to Rose, except Boozer was an all star turned scrub (which I believe is due to Rose not being a pure 'PG' like DWill) and Deng is probably a top 5 SF......but its similar....great defensive role players no true 2nd scoring option

And yea, I have read all about how terrible it was to watch, and how the 94 Finals was the worst ever etc. etc. etc......but I personally love the Riley-Rugby style bball and wish players today were still allowed to knock someone on their *** if when they come in the paint without a flagrant 2 ejection and suspension.......those Knicks made sure that win or lose, you were gonna be hurting the next day, I wish more teams had that mentality nowadays

llemon
09-01-2011, 04:31 PM
I already said Hakeem didn't. He was surrounded by great 3 point shooters (similar to Dirk this year). Thats why I said Hakeem is considered a top 3-5 all time C and Ewing isn't. Thats why I said there are probably 2 guys who won a chip without another allstar/HOFer in his prime on their team. Hakeem was one of them. And if Starks hit his shot in game 6 we are talking about Ewing also as a top 3-5 all time C, but since they lost game 6 and 7 he is overrated and a 'choker', which I believe is grounds for someone being underrated, because all of his accomplishments are thrown under the bus because of a 2 point loss and he is instead considered a guy who wilted under pressure (which is completely not true if you follow the mans career)

And what rules were changed in 1994 exactly? I don't remember rules being changed until the early 00's......I'd say the late 90s Knicks-Heat were just as physical and rugby style as the Knicks-Bulls of the early 90s.

Two point losses can change careers. See Wilt-1965 ECF. And that was a 1 point loss.

And I will now look up the rule changes.

Chronz
09-01-2011, 04:33 PM
And what rules were changed in 1994 exactly? I don't remember rules being changed until the early 00's......I'd say the late 90s Knicks-Heat were just as physical and rugby style as the Knicks-Bulls of the early 90s.
Hand checking was redefined after that series, in no small part due to Derek Harper. I even remember one of the announcers citing him as a reason during that Finals.

llemon
09-01-2011, 04:36 PM
Hand checking was redefined after that series, in no small part due to Derek Harper. I even remember one of the announcers citing him as a reason during that Finals.

Thank you. Handchecking and Clear Path rules established in 1995

Bruno
09-01-2011, 04:36 PM
93-94 Jordan was not in the nba..which is the same year the knicks went to game 7 of the finals. He wasnt the one who choked that year..starks was. Like i said...everyone is entitled to their opinion, and imo Ewing is vastly underrated, and the fact that we are even having this conversation just proves my point. Anyways..i dont even know why i have to argue an opinion based thread.

Go look at Ewings stats from the '94 playoffs. His efficiency was terrible for a seven foot, offensive anchor. His TS% cracked below .500 (terrible).

D-Leethal
09-01-2011, 04:39 PM
Hand checking was redefined after that series, in no small part due to Derek Harper. I even remember one of the announcers citing him as a reason during that Finals.


Thank you. Handchecking and Clear Path rules established in 1995

My bad, for some reason I thought hand checking rules changed in early 00s right before Steve Nash became 2x MVP........fair point

Hawkeye15
09-01-2011, 04:43 PM
not denying this at all. '94 Rockets had the worst supporting cast to ever win a ring. But who else did that besides Hakeem? Could Shaq do it? Robinson? Kobe? Who else won rings with such a bad cast? But since Ewing couldn't hes the only one who is overrated?

you know me too well to think that is what I am saying man.

Chronz
09-01-2011, 05:00 PM
I think we can all admit Ewing wont be winning a title during the 80's or against the Bad Boys in 1990. They arent winning in 91 with a sub .500 record and Ewing MIA from the playoffs.

They most definitely dont win the year after their Finals birth in 95 because they lost to the Pacers, they lost to the Heat in 97 and Pacers again in 98.

So that leaves 1992, 1993, and 1996 as years in which he was eliminated by the Bulls with a decent enough team to entertain the notion of supreme victory. By 1996, Ewing was 33 and had become one of the leagues least efficient go to guys. Safe to say he was done as a star by this point.

So that takes me back to my initial 2 year period from 92-93.

The 93 Knicks was basically the same team from the 94 Finals, some would argue even better. So they make the Finals to play Charles and the Suns, without HCA, with lesser efficiency marks, against the team that blew them out in their most recent encounter. Its not impossible but keep in mind how the 2 stars fared against the Bulls, do you think Ewing pushed those Bulls harder than Chuck?

Then theres 92, Rileys first year with the Knicks. The year the Bulls were pushed to 7 even though the talent disparity was greatly in their favor, one of the few reasons I would consider the Knicks legit contenders here.

So out of those 8 or so years with/out MJ, the Knicks would have had 2 legit shots.

Chronz
09-01-2011, 05:09 PM
My bad, for some reason I thought hand checking rules changed in early 00s right before Steve Nash became 2x MVP........fair point
In 95 it went from you can armbar guys to you cant impede their progress. In 2006 it went from that to you literally shouldnt be touching these guys on the perimeter.

Both times its had great results in maintaining a healthy balance for the league, for the Knicks however they were still the best defensive team but that advantage relative to the rest of the league had dwindled by a great margin.

They went from being 8.1 PTS better than average to only 4.5PTS after the rule change. Which is still great but no longer amongst the elite historically.

smith&wesson
09-01-2011, 06:02 PM
tyson chandler is under rated. im not saying he is an all time great though

Da Knicks
09-01-2011, 06:15 PM
You going to tell me he didn't have a mediocre cast? No one on those teams even crack top 150 players ever, and probably not even 200. How many superstars win rings without at least another HOFer or perennial all star? 1? 2?

And every team in the NBA was allowed to play that type of D back than. Bulls played that type of D. Pacers played that type of D. It wasn't just a 'oh lets let the Knicks play rugby style defense but no other team'

And Mason didn't exclusively guard Hakeem. I would say Ewing and Mason split time pretty evenly against Hakeem. And while Ewing shot very poorly he averaged 12.4 boards per game to Hakeems 9 and set a record for blocked shots in a finals series.

Not going to sit here and say Ewing was better than Olajuwon, because he wasn't. But who could guard Hakeem? Hakeem schooled Shaq just as bad and embarassed MVP Robinson even worse than any of them.

What 'advantage' did Ewing have? The fact that less fouls were called back than? How is that only an advantage for Ewing? I don't see any facts in your statement, just hyperbole and your opinion.

So Ewing was outplayed by arguably a top 3 center of all time so that means hes garbage? Doesn't the fact that he had NO LEGIT #2 to shoulder the scoring load when he was being guarded by arguably the best defensive C ever help his cause for being underrated? Because he had nobody to help him get it done when he was cold/being D'ed up by a defensive legend?

This! Everyone who came in here with advanced stats forgets that without Ewing the knicks would have being the cavs of this year. Ewing was the star and had the undrafted Starks as the best sidekick for him. Charles Smith was garbage and Riley could of played Hubert Davis instead of Starks and we wouldnt be having this conversation. No other Star has being able to win by himself but the dream, and Ewing gets hammered for not being able to do it. The most underrated center imo.

llemon
09-01-2011, 06:20 PM
This! Everyone who came in here with advanced stats forgets that without Ewing the knicks would have being the cavs of this year. Ewing was the star and had the undrafted Starks as the best sidekick for him. Charles Smith was garbage and Riley could of played Hubert Davis instead of Starks and we wouldnt be having this conversation. No other Star has being able to win by himself but the dream, and Ewing gets hammered for not being able to do it. The most underrated center imo.

Poor Patrick. He is not, however, underrated.

Grifftiggs
09-01-2011, 06:38 PM
Zo. He was a beast on D and doesnt get enough credit

VillaMaravilla
09-01-2011, 07:12 PM
to call Patrick overated has got to be one of the worst things i have ever read on PSD i mean damn i know my Knicks are one of the hated teams but to call Ewing overated is just taking it to far.....just saying

llemon
09-01-2011, 07:16 PM
Zo. He was a beast on D and doesnt get enough credit

Difficult for me to think kindly of Alonzo after his whiny pissy fit when he was a Net.

Chronz
09-01-2011, 08:49 PM
to call Patrick overated has got to be one of the worst things i have ever read on PSD i mean damn i know my Knicks are one of the hated teams but to call Ewing overated is just taking it to far.....just saying

I dont know why you think this train of thought is limited to just PSD. Ever heard of the Ewing Theory? People have been questioning his impact since College.

Hawkeye15
09-01-2011, 09:35 PM
to call Patrick overated has got to be one of the worst things i have ever read on PSD i mean damn i know my Knicks are one of the hated teams but to call Ewing overated is just taking it to far.....just saying

The reason I opened that can of worms is because 2 posters said Ewing was one of the underrated centers of all time, which is far more laughable than calling him overrated.

jimbobjarree
09-01-2011, 10:49 PM
The 'tag

llemon
09-01-2011, 11:14 PM
The reason I opened that can of worms is because 2 posters said Ewing was one of the underrated centers of all time, which is far more laughable than calling him overrated.

I believe Ewing is rated properly.

However, very little is mentioned about Ewing playing the dog when Don Nelson was coaching the Knicks.

And, as a Net fan, I always appreciated that.

llemon
09-01-2011, 11:14 PM
The reason I opened that can of worms is because 2 posters said Ewing was one of the underrated centers of all time, which is far more laughable than calling him overrated.

I believe Ewing is rated properly.

However, very little is mentioned about Ewing playing the dog when Don Nelson was coaching the Knicks.

And, as a Net fan, I have always appreciated that.

MTar786
09-01-2011, 11:21 PM
to call Patrick overated has got to be one of the worst things i have ever read on PSD i mean damn i know my Knicks are one of the hated teams but to call Ewing overated is just taking it to far.....just saying

I didnt know anyone cared enough for the knicks to hate them? Also, I guess people here call him over rated because he shot 35% from the field in the 1994 finals. A CENTER shooting 35%?!?!?!?!? Thats like a guard sooting 25% from the field lol. A center should shoot atleast 50% from the field.. especially a good one.

rpgmaster86
09-01-2011, 11:33 PM
arvidas sabonis, vlade divac, and rick smiths from indiana! very very underrated center

llemon
09-01-2011, 11:37 PM
arvidas sabonis, vlade divac, and rick smiths from indiana! very very underrated center

As NBA Centers, I believe all three are rated accurately.

Hawkeye15
09-01-2011, 11:46 PM
I believe Ewing is rated properly.

However, very little is mentioned about Ewing playing the dog when Don Nelson was coaching the Knicks.

And, as a Net fan, I have always appreciated that.

Where do you think he is rated? That is always the topic of discussion

llemon
09-01-2011, 11:51 PM
Where do you think he is rated? That is always the topic of discussion

I do not believe Ewing is overrated nor underrated.

I will leave it to others to place him wherever they think is fit, numerically speaking.

Hawkeye15
09-01-2011, 11:54 PM
I do not believe Ewing is overrated nor underrated.

I will leave it to others to place him wherever they think is fit, numerically speaking.

this all started with someone making the claim he was underrated, and I responded. So your response is fair enough. I honestly think it depends on the eye of the beholder. Me personally, I don't think he belongs in the top 30 convo. But hey, that is me

llemon
09-02-2011, 12:01 AM
this all started with someone making the claim he was underrated, and I responded. So your response is fair enough. I honestly think it depends on the eye of the beholder. Me personally, I don't think he belongs in the top 30 convo. But hey, that is me

This is the stuff that allows the Earth to continue to spin on its axis.

It's A Wonderful Life. For now.

MJ-BULLS
09-02-2011, 12:15 AM
Artis Gilmore.

tr3ymill3r
09-02-2011, 12:21 AM
Chuck Hayes. He's 6'6" and plays like he's 6'11", if he actually were taller he'd be one of the best players in the league because of his hustle and heart.

llemon
09-02-2011, 01:21 AM
Chuck Hayes. He's 6'6" and plays like he's 6'11", if he actually were taller he'd be one of the best players in the league because of his hustle and heart.

You sure it's not Danny Fortson?

5ass
09-02-2011, 03:29 AM
Chuck Hayes. He's 6'6" and plays like he's 6'11", if he actually were taller he'd be one of the best players in the league because of his hustle and heart.

If he was 6'11 he would be joakim noah

iam brett favre
09-02-2011, 04:30 AM
Greg Ostertag

gsgs49
09-03-2011, 11:26 AM
Ben Wallace for me.
Those pistons teams in the mid 2000's were arguably the best ever defensively.
Billups,Hamilton,Sheed were decent defenders,Prince was a good defender but big Ben was the main reason of their success defensively.
I believe that Ben Wallace is the second best center of all time defensively just behind Hakeem Olajuwon.

llemon
09-03-2011, 11:37 AM
Ben Wallace for me.
Those pistons teams in the mid 2000's were arguably the best ever defensively.
Billups,Hamilton,Sheed were decent defenders,Prince was a good defender but big Ben was the main reason of their success defensively.
I believe that Ben Wallace is the second best center of all time defensively just behind Hakeem Olajuwon.

Ben Wallace wasn't much of a straight up defender