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View Full Version : Jordan without Scottie and Phil?



JasonJohnHorn
08-26-2011, 12:35 AM
There are some on the forum who would argue that Jordan made Pippen and HOFer. My question is quite the opposite. Did the influence of Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen help Jordan avoid the career course of the like of Nique, Gervin, Iverson and McGrady? Would Jordan have been able to win a championship if he was given free reign over a franchise like so MANY other 30+ point scorers who failed to win NBA hardware? If the Bulls had followed Jordan's urgings and drafted Joe Wolf over Pippen, would they have won a title? Or were Pippen and Jackson as much of a reason for the Bulls winning 6 NBA titles as Jordan was.

Hellcrooner
08-26-2011, 12:58 AM
would have ended up signing with NY sooner or later and getting a ring with Ewing.
.
he almost did anyway even after winning several rigns with bulls.

tredigs
08-26-2011, 01:02 AM
Let me know the next time those guys can drop 37/5/5 on elite efficiency with 3 steals and 1.5 blocks a game. Or 33/8/8 with 3 steals on 54% shooting - leading the league in PER and WinShares consecutively for the better part of a decade.

Yes, just another Iverson ol' Jordan would've become...

tredigs
08-26-2011, 01:05 AM
Jason, do yourself a favor and look up his ROOKIE stats (pre Pippen/Jackson, for those playing at home), then close your own thread and save yourself the embarrassment that is likely to follow.

Hellcrooner
08-26-2011, 01:08 AM
Jason, do yourself a favor and look up his ROOKIE stats (pre Pippen/Jackson, for those playing at home), then close your own thread and save yourself the embarrassment that is likely to follow.

More like the SALEM TRIAL , wich will follow.

Chronz
08-26-2011, 01:14 AM
Not having Pip would have made the 90's alot more interesting but he would have still contended, the mid 90's were weak

tredigs
08-26-2011, 01:17 AM
Were Pippen and Phil (as well as Horace, Kucoc, Rodman, etc.) instrumental to their championships - necessary, even? Yes.

Would those two have won a championship with the right core around them if Jordan wasn't involved? Very possible, but far from a guarantee.

Would Jordan have won a ship with a plethora of other squads in the NBA? Given time, unquestionably.

Would Jordan have still been known as one of the most dominant two way players of all time, and still arguably the GOAT (though absolutely MUCH more arguable) despite not winning a ship (if he still played as amazing as he always did in the post-season). Unquestionably.

"/Thread"

Hellcrooner
08-26-2011, 01:19 AM
Were Pippen and Phil (as well as Horace, Kucoc, Rodman, etc.) instrumental to their championships - necessary, even? Yes.

Would those two have won a championship with the right core around them if Jordan wasn't involved? Very possible, but far from a guarantee.

Would Jordan have won a ship with a plethora of other squads in the NBA? Given time, unquestionably.

Would Jordan have still been known as one of the most dominant two way players of all time, and still arguably the GOAT (though absolutely MUCH more arguable) despite not winning a ship (if he still played as amazing as he always did in the post-season). Unquestionably.

"/Thread"

sorry but in may 1991 he was BEHIND Wilt, russell, Robertson, Magic and bird in any educated conversation bout Goat and Jordan was getting the Lebron Failure treatment.

had he won jsut 1 or 2 rings you can be sure that conversation wouldnt have changed substantially.

tredigs
08-26-2011, 01:28 AM
sorry but in may 1991 he was BEHIND Wilt, russell, Robertson, Magic and bird in any educated conversation bout Goat and Jordan was getting the Lebron Failure treatment.

had he won jsut 1 or 2 rings you can be sure that conversation wouldnt have changed substantially.

Uh well... yes, he was probably behind them. But the point you're not understanding I suppose is that his career did not end then, and if he left Chi it would have been to a contender (like you said, almost did to NY). Given the very high probability that he would lead X team that he went to to a ring (especially considering that the Bulls as we know it don't exist) after that point, while he CONTINUED to put up legendary numbers, and comparisons to Bird and Oscar would only be had by dunces of the game. Throw in the fact that he was unmistakingly more dominant two ways than Magic with a longer prime, and he's out.

Whatever, we're in fantasy land at this point and it's really not worth wasting the energy to argue this nonsense. Point is, my last post sums up the reality of it. There was a ton of hate for Mike, but it was not on Lebron's level (league wide to most young fans in 1990, he was already a legend in America despite his lack of rings - trust me, I remember it well). In his entire career, he did not have two playoff series where he failed to dominate to the point that Lebron has in those two finals or against the Celtics for half the series last year. So, the hate for him IS somewhat justified in that context. Apples and Oranges.

Next thread -

jneises21
08-26-2011, 01:30 AM
If he's on a team like Lebron's cavs, I think he wins 2-3 rings

naps
08-26-2011, 01:56 AM
Were Pippen and Phil (as well as Horace, Kucoc, Rodman, etc.) instrumental to their championships - necessary, even? Yes.

Would those two have won a championship with the right core around them if Jordan wasn't involved? Very possible, but far from a guarantee.

Would Jordan have won a ship with a plethora of other squads in the NBA? Given time, unquestionably.

Would Jordan have still been known as one of the most dominant two way players of all time, and still arguably the GOAT (though absolutely MUCH more arguable) despite not winning a ship (if he still played as amazing as he always did in the post-season). Unquestionably.

"/Thread"

Thanks for saving my time.

JordansBulls
08-26-2011, 07:33 AM
There are some on the forum who would argue that Jordan made Pippen and HOFer. My question is quite the opposite. Did the influence of Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen help Jordan avoid the career course of the like of Nique, Gervin, Iverson and McGrady? Would Jordan have been able to win a championship if he was given free reign over a franchise like so MANY other 30+ point scorers who failed to win NBA hardware? If the Bulls had followed Jordan's urgings and drafted Joe Wolf over Pippen, would they have won a title? Or were Pippen and Jackson as much of a reason for the Bulls winning 6 NBA titles as Jordan was.

Considering he turned the Bulls from a losing organization into a dynasty hell yes he wins and not only that he was only losing to all time great teams in the playoffs yearly with absolutely no help. He was never outplayed in any series and outscored every player in every playoff series. He led the league in PER 7+ times, WS PER 48 Minutes 8+ times and WS 9+ times on top of leading the league in scoring 10+ times. Has the record for scoring average in the season and playoffs and most points in playoff history despite playing many more less games than Kareem (about 60 games), also has the highest WS/PER 48 minutes average ever in the season and playoffs which means he contributed more to winning than any other player in NBA History.


This question is better served for players who went straight to winning organizations and who had players better than they were on there teams when they arrived not for players who went into the worse possible situation and still managed to turn a team into a dynasty and champions.

sventhedog
08-26-2011, 07:39 AM
this or that could've happened. the chances are just the same as 'if you didn't have fingers, you probably won't able to start this thread so nobody would be talking about this'

mark1125
08-26-2011, 07:59 AM
I dislike Jordan because I am a Piston fan so I HAVE to. However, I respect the crap out of him. He would have won no matter where he played or who he played with (within reason). He may not have won as many, but he is too much of a winner to not win.

Now as a owner/GM, I don't think so highly of his winning abilities.

asandhu23
08-26-2011, 08:11 AM
A NBA player can not win a championship all by himself. its been proven plenty of time. Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq etc could not do it alone.

Having Pippen did make a huge difference.

rapjuicer06
08-26-2011, 09:08 AM
Gosh these are so annoying. If Wade didn't have Shaq, if Kobe didn't have Pau, if Shaq didn't have Kobe, If Magic didn't have a HOF cast around him, if Bird didn't have a HOF cast around him....shut the **** up with the if's...damn

krest213
08-26-2011, 10:20 AM
he still would have been MJ
the guy was destine to be Great
God already Plan that for MJ

Just like Batman would still be batman
even without Robin guys

so i don't want to see threads like this anymore okay?

KnicksorBust
08-26-2011, 10:46 AM
Let me know the next time those guys can drop 37/5/5 on elite efficiency with 3 steals and 1.5 blocks a game. Or 33/8/8 with 3 steals on 54% shooting - leading the league in PER and WinShares consecutively for the better part of a decade.

Yes, just another Iverson ol' Jordan would've become...



Jason, do yourself a favor and look up his ROOKIE stats (pre Pippen/Jackson, for those playing at home), then close your own thread and save yourself the embarrassment that is likely to follow.

I agree. I took exception to those comparisons as well. He still would have destroyed anything his contemporary peers were doing at the guard position. The only aspect put into question is how many rings he would end up with.



sorry but in may 1991 he was BEHIND Wilt, russell, Robertson, Magic and bird in any educated conversation bout Goat and Jordan was getting the Lebron Failure treatment.

had he won jsut 1 or 2 rings you can be sure that conversation wouldnt have changed substantially.

Crooner is spot on here. At the time Jordan was considered too selfish to win a title. He didn't stack up to Isiah and Magic (two PGs mind you) at the time because of his style of play. Then when he gets help with Grant/Cartwright and of course Pippen, he becomes (slightly) less of a facilitator but people suddenly applaud him because he's winning.

The frustrating part of a thread like this is that there is too much fantasy involved. If MJ didn't have Pippen, the bulls still would have gotten somebody. They wouldn't have built the same teams with just an open spot at SF. So it's tough to imagine who they would have gotten to replace him or if Jordan would have potentially switched teams.