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JordansBulls
08-24-2011, 02:35 PM
Voting for #26 has concluded and PSD's Official #26 NBA Player of all time is....

Dwyane Wade


The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)
20. Kevin Garnett (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641975)
21. LeBron James (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511)
22. Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643161)
23. Bob Pettit (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=644031)
24. John Havlicek (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645330)
25. Elgin Baylor (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645990)
26. Dwyane Wade (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=646496)


Voting will now begin for the #27 NBA Player All Time

NOTE: You can only nominate one player and that player had to be an allstar multiple times at least probably at least 3 times at a minimum. The player who has the most nomination votes will be added to the next poll. Anyone who nominates more than one player there nomination will be disregarded.


2nd NOTE: Have seen a lot of posters just vote, but not make a single comment in the thread on there choice. We need you to participate and say why you chose who you did. Basically support it. If not, then don't see why your vote should count.

With the lack of participation and just voting, we will do the voting another way now to get more participation.

These are the players that can be voted for the #27 spot.

Willis Reed
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Bob Cousy
Isiah Thomas
Gary Payton
Patrick Ewing
Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Sam Jones
Scottie Pippen
Walt Frazier
Allen Iverson
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Bob Mcadoo
Bill Walton
George Gervin
Kevin McHale
James Worthy
Reggie Miller
Elvin Hayes
Dolph Schayes
Nate Thurmond
Shawn Kemp
Alonzo Mourning
Kevin Johnson
Jerry Lucas
Robert Parish (Newest Nomination)

JordansBulls
08-24-2011, 02:38 PM
VOTE: Dwyane Wade (led Miami to it's only title in franchise history with a historic finals
Nominate: Tracy Mcgrady (one of the best primes there is out there for a wing player)

pd7631
08-24-2011, 02:40 PM
I've posted the numbers in the other threads, so if I have to do that again I will, but if you have 5 minutes I urge you to watch this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKvoLWu_Zew

the things Dikembe Mutombo has to say, says it all in my opinion

Sadds The Gr8
08-24-2011, 02:42 PM
can't u just put the polls back?

JordansBulls
08-24-2011, 02:55 PM
can't u just put the polls back?

If you can't explain why you are voting for a player, then what use will the poll have? The poll doesn't really create much discussion unless you are also participating in the thread and making a case for a player.

If you have an exam in school and one is multiple choice, whereas another is multiple choice but you have to work out the problem and explain how you got your results, then which is more beneficial and shows you know what is going on?

GREATNESS ONE
08-24-2011, 02:59 PM
These threads died, thanks JB

Hustlenomics
08-24-2011, 03:00 PM
-Big East Rookie of the Year award
-2X Big East Defensive Player of the Year
-First team AP All-American, 1996
-97 Rookie Of The Year
-97 Rookie Game MVP
-97 All Rookie First-Team
-7 x All-NBA Selection
-3 x steals champion(01,02,03)
-4 x NBA Scoring Champion(99,01,02,05)
-11 x NBA All-Star
-2 x NBA All-Star Game MVP(01,05)
-2001 NBA MVP
-1983 Career Steals (12th all-time)
-5624 Career Assists(4th Actively)
-24,368 Career Points in just 914 games played (17th all-time)
-One of only 5 players in NBA History to average at least 30 ppg and 8 apg in a season
-Career Average of 2.2 SPG(7th all-time)
-Career Average of 6.2 APG
-Career Average of 26.7 PPG(6th all-time)
-5 Consecutive games of 40+ points as a rookie
-Playoff Steal record
-Became fifth player ever to make an average of 30 points and seven assists in a season

vote: ALLEN IVERSON

Chronz
08-24-2011, 03:20 PM
If you can't explain why you are voting for a player, then what use will the poll have? The poll doesn't really create much discussion unless you are also participating in the thread and making a case for a player.
Yea but the participation was so low that a clearly inferior player nearly won all because his fanboys were willing to come in and post, I guess we cant escape the mistakes but I would feel more comfortable knowing they were at least a result of PSD's collective consciousness.

Besides they didnt spark any discussion, they were set in there ways and could not contribute in any meaningful way. All they did was regurgitate their same flawed reasoning without any basis for comparison. Its as if they think all they have to do is praise their player and if you go against that your labeled a hater. When what they should be doing is telling us why to choose their player over another, simply posting the accomplishments of their player isnt enough, you have to tell us how those accomplishments offset another.

Sadds The Gr8
08-24-2011, 03:22 PM
If you can't explain why you are voting for a player, then what use will the poll have? The poll doesn't really create much discussion unless you are also participating in the thread and making a case for a player.

If you have an exam in school and one is multiple choice, whereas another is multiple choice but you have to work out the problem and explain how you got your results, then which is more beneficial and shows you know what is going on?

the threads were clearly more popular before when the polls were up. i don't get how the polls were hurting anything...the whole point of this is to get the general public of PSD to vote for the best player right? not just the same select 20 people who post in these threads.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 03:27 PM
-Big East Rookie of the Year award
-2X Big East Defensive Player of the Year
-First team AP All-American, 1996
-97 Rookie Of The Year
-97 Rookie Game MVP
-97 All Rookie First-Team
-7 x All-NBA Selection
-3 x steals champion(01,02,03)
-4 x NBA Scoring Champion(99,01,02,05)
-11 x NBA All-Star
-2 x NBA All-Star Game MVP(01,05)
-2001 NBA MVP
-1983 Career Steals (12th all-time)
-5624 Career Assists(4th Actively)
-24,368 Career Points in just 914 games played (17th all-time)
-One of only 5 players in NBA History to average at least 30 ppg and 8 apg in a season
-Career Average of 2.2 SPG(7th all-time)
-Career Average of 6.2 APG
-Career Average of 26.7 PPG(6th all-time)
-5 Consecutive games of 40+ points as a rookie
-Playoff Steal record
-Became fifth player ever to make an average of 30 points and seven assists in a season

vote: ALLEN IVERSON

You see what I mean JB, what the hell is this? What exactly is this suppose to tell us, how does this separate him from Rick Barry, Ewing, Drexler, Reed, Frazier, GP etc... It doesnt, its not even a decent representation of his statistical prowess, posting arbitrary measures is the first sign of irrationality.

Hell Im surprised he didnt post the fact that hes the ONLY player in league history to average 33-7 with whatever steals he got on top of whatever minutes he played, on top of how ever many 3pt shots he made. Thats their idea of statistical analysis, and now without a poll this guy accounts for a greater % of the poll.

The perfect system would be to elect a committee that is established by the mods choosing their select posters, and then those select choosing a few of their own until we get a large enough sample of PSD's brightest minds.

The 2nd best is to just leave it public and allow everyone, but only taking those who chime in doesnt seem like a great alternative. I thought it would but too few participated.

pd7631
08-24-2011, 03:36 PM
You see what I mean JB, what the hell is this? What exactly is this suppose to tell us, how does this separate him from Rick Barry, Ewing, Drexler, Reed, Frazier, GP etc... It doesnt, its not even a decent representation of his statistical prowess, posting arbitrary measures is the first sign of irrationality.

Hell Im surprised he didnt post the fact that hes the ONLY player in league history to average 33-7 with whatever steals he got on top of whatever minutes he played, on top of how ever many 3pt shots he made. Thats their idea of statistical analysis, and now without a poll this guy accounts for a greater % of the poll.

The perfect system would be to elect a committee that is established by the mods choosing their select posters, and then those select choosing a few of their own until we get a large enough sample of PSD's brightest minds.

The 2nd best is to just leave it public and allow everyone, but only taking those who chime in doesnt seem like a great alternative. I thought it would but too few participated.


We list the stats....that's not good enough

We talk about the intangibles.....that's not good enough

We show the amount of awards he's won......that's not good enough

We give significant facts that put him in elite company......that's not good enough



There is literally nothing we can say that will make you believe Allen Iverson should be voted 27th, 28th, 29th.....etc. So instead of you talking about how our minds are made up and set in stone, why don't you take a look in the mirror.

Those voting for Allen Iverson believe that the things he's done on a basketball court are worthy of him being the selected in this poll.....quit griping.

Chacarron
08-24-2011, 03:39 PM
My vote goes to Patrick Ewing. He was such a dominant center on both ends of the floor, I just don't see someone as dominant on the list of players, maybe 1 or 2.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 03:52 PM
We list the stats....that's not good enough

We talk about the intangibles.....that's not good enough

We show the amount of awards he's won......that's not good enough

We give significant facts that put him in elite company......that's not good enough



There is literally nothing we can say that will make you believe Allen Iverson should be voted 27th, 28th, 29th.....etc. So instead of you talking about how our minds are made up and set in stone, why don't you take a look in the mirror.
LOL thank you for proving my point, wheres the part where you actually COMPARE the players to those other selections? Simply hyping up your player with no basis for comparison is not good enough, simply posting archaic measures is not good enough, speaking of intangibles when he falls well short of those set by these other legends is not good enough, saying hes elite is not good enough. You need to distinguish AI from those guys by comparing their careers as a whole. You guys have failed to contextualize those results within these parameters.


Those voting for Allen Iverson believe that the things he's done on a basketball court are worthy of him being the selected in this poll.....quit griping.

Im just saying I would be more comfortable knowing it was more than just you guys accounting for such a large % of his votes. You guys dont exactly fit my idea of an objective vote. I have no doubt AI will go sooner than he deserves, but Id hope you guys could present a better argument if we continue doing it this way.

pd7631
08-24-2011, 04:06 PM
LOL thank you for proving my point, wheres the part where you actually COMPARE the players to those other selections? Simply hyping up your player with no basis for comparison is not good enough, simply posting archaic measures is not good enough, speaking of intangibles when he falls well short of those set by these other legends is not good enough, saying hes elite is not good enough. You need to distinguish AI from those guys by comparing their careers as a whole. You guys have failed to contextualize those results within these parameters.


Im just saying I would be more comfortable knowing it was more than just you guys accounting for such a large % of his votes. You guys dont exactly fit my idea of an objective vote. I have no doubt AI will go sooner than he deserves, but Id hope you guys could present a better argument if we continue doing it this way.


So you'd rather there be people voting without having to justify any reasoning for their vote? Allowing a completely open poll with no reasoning needed whatsoever can just allow people to vote for someone with the sole purpose of not letting someone else win the poll.

I really don't see how the arguments being presented in favor of AI aren't sufficient enough. No one person values the same things as another, so trying to put down another player is a futile endeavor as far as I'm concerned. I showed why I think AI should be the next player taken, and it's not gonna change, because if I think he's the 26th greatest, then I sure as hell am gonna think he's the 27th, 28th, etc....until he's selected.

naps
08-24-2011, 04:18 PM
These threads are officially dead now. It's not gonna be the same and fair for rest of the players without the poll. JB basically destroyed the entire process. This will be known as a flawed list of psd. People don't have enough time to go over every post to find out the total vote counts for a player. So basically it's like you are forcing people to trust your counts which by no means is fair.

I would recommend that these should be redone including the last one. It has to be the same process for every position; Otherwise, it's not gonna carry much worth imo. The participation is decreased now as well means people are losing their interest in these.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 04:20 PM
So you'd rather there be people voting without having to justify any reasoning for their vote?
Yes, the participation was too low for us to do it this way. Id rather get the collective mind than the mind of those who have the time to give subpar arguments.


Allowing a completely open poll with no reasoning needed whatsoever can just allow people to vote for someone with the sole purpose of not letting someone else win the poll.

False, the way we are doing it allows for that to be done much more easily. Look at my vote, I went Pippen just so that the separation from AI would be greater, had I not voted and 1 other person not voted it would have been tied.

Compared to when there were hundreds of votes, its much harder for you to play politics. My 1 vote wouldnt have mattered as much because it gets lost in the shuffle, I rather get the collective brain of PSD.


I really don't see how the arguments being presented in favor of AI aren't sufficient enough.
Archaic/Arbitrary measures, lack of true comparison.


No one person values the same things as another, so trying to put down another player is a futile endeavor as far as I'm concerned.
So then what prevented you from voting for AI as the GOAT? Obviously there are things we CAN measure to differentiate players from one another, that your not willing to try at this stage in the voting only tells me how weak of an argument you have for AI.


I showed why I think AI should be the next player taken, and it's not gonna change, because if I think he's the 26th greatest, then I sure as hell am gonna think he's the 27th, 28th, etc....until he's selected.

I dont see the point of this when thats pretty obvious.

Swashcuff
08-24-2011, 04:33 PM
Vote: Dwyane Wade
Nominate: Artis Gilmore

I gave my reasoning for these two in an earlier threads. With Scottie, Hondo and Elgin off the board IMO the race for this spot is between Wade, Ewing and Barry.

KnicksorBust
08-24-2011, 04:40 PM
Bob Cousy.

He will be my vote everytime until he wins for 3 simple reasons:

1. Cousy made 10 consecutive All-NBA 1st teams.
2. Cousy was the 2nd-best player on 6 championship teams.
3. Cousy finished his career with 6,945 assists and the next-highest guy (Dick McGuire) only had 4,205 assists. He was significantly better than his peers and as winning a player as any that remain on voting list.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 04:54 PM
Bob Cousy.

He will be my vote everytime until he wins for 3 simple reasons:

1. Cousy made 10 consecutive All-NBA 1st teams.
2. Cousy was the 2nd-best player on 6 championship teams.
3. Cousy finished his career with 6,945 assists and the next-highest guy (Dick McGuire) only had 4,205 assists. He was significantly better than his peers and as winning a player as any that remain on voting list.

10 1st teams against the likes of Slater Martin, Dick Garmaker, Jack George, Gene Shue, Richie Guerin doesnt impress me. It took awhile for guard play to reach an impressive level and when it did he ceased to be a 1st teamer.

2. Is probably accurate but you could make a case for Heinsohn whenever he went nova

3. Yes but your giving him extra credit for being the first of his kind

JordansBulls
08-24-2011, 04:56 PM
These threads are officially dead now. It's not gonna be the same and fair for rest of the players without the poll. JB basically destroyed the entire process. This will be known as a flawed list of psd. People don't have enough time to go over every post to find out the total vote counts for a player. So basically it's like you are forcing people to trust your counts which by no means is fair.

I would recommend that these should be redone including the last one. It has to be the same process for every position; Otherwise, it's not gonna carry much worth imo. The participation is decreased now as well means people are losing their interest in these.

But yet on forums that don't have polls, this method works fine because posters are knowledgeable. Yet for some reason I'm supposed to believe that 26 posters who even say something in the thread but having 80 votes means the other 54 know what is going on vs just taking popular opinion. The list got screwed up in the polls when Stockton went #18. Thru the top 10-15 it was fine, but after that the polls weren't good enough.
It's fine for polls for current players that is recent, but for knowing the knowledge of the game it is necesarry for posters to express why they are picking who they are picking.

Cano4prez
08-24-2011, 04:58 PM
Voting for Wade, if AI is in the top 30 this list is officially a joke

naps
08-24-2011, 05:01 PM
JB, I am not the only person here who is disagreeing with your process/idea. Most people are with me. You are being a stubborn dictator but I guess since you started these threads, you can do whatever hell you want. I just stated my opinion.

JordansBulls
08-24-2011, 05:03 PM
The #26 thread has 144 posts (no poll)

The #25 thread has 82 posts

The #24 thread has 47 posts

The #23 thread had 72 posts

The #22 thread had 153 posts

The #21 thread had 93 posts

The #20 thread had 83 posts

KingPosey
08-24-2011, 05:05 PM
lol SHawn Kemp was NOT a better player than Mitch Richmond, he shouldnt even be in the top 100 players.

Swashcuff
08-24-2011, 05:11 PM
The #26 thread has 144 posts (no poll)

The #25 thread has 82 posts

The #24 thread has 47 posts

The #23 thread had 72 posts

The #22 thread had 153 posts

The #21 thread had 93 posts

The #20 thread had 83 posts

I prefer this method, however as I said before what we NEED is for our more informed posters to take part in these threads on a consistent basis.

JordansBulls
08-24-2011, 05:14 PM
JB, I am not the only person here who is disagreeing with your process/idea. Most people are with me. You are being a stubborn dictator but I guess since you started these threads, you can do whatever hell you want. I just stated my opinion.

The posters who are disagreeing are the ones who don't put effort in the threads or posts, they just want to vote and see the results. You are more than welcome to go back and count up all the votes, but some reason I doubt you would take the time to do that.

KnicksorBust
08-24-2011, 05:37 PM
10 1st teams against the likes of Slater Martin, Dick Garmaker, Jack George, Gene Shue, Richie Guerin doesnt impress me. It took awhile for guard play to reach an impressive level and when it did he ceased to be a 1st teamer.

2. Is probably accurate but you could make a case for Heinsohn whenever he went nova

3. Yes but your giving him extra credit for being the first of his kind


1. He was 32 at that point and still was All-NBA 2nd team behind Oscar Robertson and Jerry West. Two guys who have already long been added to this list. You really want to penalize him for that?

2. Good.

3. No, I'm giving him extra credit for dominating his peers which is extremely relevant when comparing legacies. Baylor's rebound numbers are higher than Rodman's but we can safely say Rodman was a better rebounder because when you put Rodman's numbers in the context of his era you see they were more impressive. Same thing goes with Cousy and his assist numbers. It's a lesser version of what Babe Ruth did with home runs.

KingPosey
08-24-2011, 05:42 PM
In theory your premise sounds nice JB, but when someone wins the "poll" 6 votes to 4, there is a problem. That isnt the resounding voice of PSD. Thats just 6 guys' opinion.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 06:09 PM
I prefer this method, however as I said before what we NEED is for our more informed posters to take part in these threads on a consistent basis.
The only way to rally the troops would be to make it a project.


JB, I am not the only person here who is disagreeing with your process/idea. Most people are with me. You are being a stubborn dictator but I guess since you started these threads, you can do whatever hell you want. I just stated my opinion.
Relax, your coming off as a dick right now. There is no motive for JB here aside from attempting to spark interest. You may not agree with the results but his heart is in the right place.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 06:18 PM
1. He was 32 at that point and still was All-NBA 2nd team behind Oscar Robertson and Jerry West. Two guys who have already long been added to this list. You really want to penalize him for that?

2. Good.

3. No, I'm giving him extra credit for dominating his peers which is extremely relevant when comparing legacies. Baylor's rebound numbers are higher than Rodman's but we can safely say Rodman was a better rebounder because when you put Rodman's numbers in the context of his era you see they were more impressive. Same thing goes with Cousy and his assist numbers. It's a lesser version of what Babe Ruth did with home runs.

1) It sounds unfair to compare him to them when so many fall short but it seems just as unfair to grant him equal credit for his 1st Team Selections when the competition was so pedestrian.

3) But his peers were pathetic. And yes we adjust for league averages, thats the point. Rodman having a higher rebound rate didnt make his overall stat line better, this is because of advantages elsewhere.
Cousy gets that credit but still falls short statistically to a guy like Frazier. Cousy has his place but hes no Babe Ruth and assists arent anywhere near as valuable to Home Runs. There has never been a strong correlation to assists and winning. The 4 Factors (TS%, TO%, REB%, FTA) are known as such because they happen to be the most important to winning a game.

NYKalltheway
08-24-2011, 06:37 PM
I'm gonna go with Bob Cousy here... shouldn't have dropped this far and really don't wanna see Wade over Drexler, Ewing, Hayes, Cousy, Schayes, Thomas, Frazier, Gervin, McHale, Nique, Pippen, Zo, Mutombo, Cowens, Barry, Dantley and a few other guys, even guys like Payton and Archibald.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 06:39 PM
But yet on forums that don't have polls, this method works fine because posters are knowledgeable. Yet for some reason I'm supposed to believe that 26 posters who even say something in the thread but having 80 votes means the other 54 know what is going on vs just taking popular opinion. The list got screwed up in the polls when Stockton went #18. Thru the top 10-15 it was fine, but after that the polls weren't good enough.
It's fine for polls for current players that is recent, but for knowing the knowledge of the game it is necesarry for posters to express why they are picking who they are picking.

Yea but you may as well stay consistent, whos to stop you from starting another project? Lets just leave this one pure and popularity based. Bring the topic up in the Roundtable forum, and have everyone submit their ballot however you wish.

Sadds The Gr8
08-24-2011, 06:40 PM
These threads are officially dead now. It's not gonna be the same and fair for rest of the players without the poll. JB basically destroyed the entire process. This will be known as a flawed list of psd. People don't have enough time to go over every post to find out the total vote counts for a player. So basically it's like you are forcing people to trust your counts which by no means is fair.

I would recommend that these should be redone including the last one. It has to be the same process for every position; Otherwise, it's not gonna carry much worth imo. The participation is decreased now as well means people are losing their interest in these.

first time i've ever agreed with this guy...

KingPosey
08-24-2011, 06:49 PM
But yet on forums that don't have polls, this method works fine because posters are knowledgeable. Yet for some reason I'm supposed to believe that 26 posters who even say something in the thread but having 80 votes means the other 54 know what is going on vs just taking popular opinion. The list got screwed up in the polls when Stockton went #18. Thru the top 10-15 it was fine, but after that the polls weren't good enough.
It's fine for polls for current players that is recent, but for knowing the knowledge of the game it is necesarry for posters to express why they are picking who they are picking.

So because players started going when you didnt agree, you decided to change the formula?
And it changes everything. You cant change the process IN THE MIDDLE of the voting.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 06:53 PM
I'm gonna go with Bob Cousy here... shouldn't have dropped this far and really don't wanna see Wade over Drexler, Ewing, Hayes, Cousy, Schayes, Thomas, Frazier, Gervin, McHale, Nique, Pippen, Zo, Mutombo, Cowens, Barry, Dantley and a few other guys, even guys like Payton and Archibald.

If you dont want to see Wade go this early you should probably vote for someone other than Cousy, or did he get alot of votes the last round?

Swashcuff
08-24-2011, 06:56 PM
Guys if you are going to whine on what JB is doing could you at least cast your vote and make your nomination first. Maybe you'd be able to provide a strong enough argument to change his mind. Until then lets not get sidetracked and forget that we still have to vote/nominate.

KingPosey
08-24-2011, 07:06 PM
I voted Mitch Richmond.

Swashcuff
08-24-2011, 07:08 PM
I voted Mitch Richmond.

Would you care to explain why as JB stated in his initial post?

Cano4prez
08-24-2011, 07:24 PM
The #26 thread has 144 posts (no poll)

The #25 thread has 82 posts

The #24 thread has 47 posts

The #23 thread had 72 posts

The #22 thread had 153 posts

The #21 thread had 93 posts

The #20 thread had 83 posts


There was also around 60+ votes in all of those

Cavs_Fan24
08-24-2011, 07:26 PM
Vote: Dwyane Wade - the face of the Heat franchise, has the all important ring, and will go down as one of the most dynamic athletes ever, not just in basketball.

JordansBulls
08-24-2011, 07:39 PM
There was also around 60+ votes in all of those

Yeah with 20-30 posters commenting in the thread. If there are 60 votes in the thread, then there should be 60 comments from different posters. If they voted they should participate in the thread. Anyway, I probably will stop after this one. I only wanted to do up to the top 25 all time anyway. I extended it to top 50 to give more to talk about during the lockout.

naps
08-24-2011, 08:04 PM
Relax, your coming off as a dick right now. There is no motive for JB here aside from attempting to spark interest. You may not agree with the results but his heart is in the right place.



So because players started going when you didnt agree, you decided to change the formula?
And it changes everything. You cant change the process IN THE MIDDLE of the voting.

Exactly my point. It's just not fair. I understand it's a better way of having a discussion but you can't do it in the middle. It should have been started from the beginning if anything.

NYKalltheway
08-24-2011, 08:13 PM
If you dont want to see Wade go this early you should probably vote for someone other than Cousy, or did he get alot of votes the last round?


Well, Iverson got 6 votes, Wade 4 and Cousy 4... don;'t think there's many other options there :)

Cano4prez
08-24-2011, 08:14 PM
Yeah with 20-30 posters commenting in the thread. If there are 60 votes in the thread, then there should be 60 comments from different posters. If they voted they should participate in the thread. Anyway, I probably will stop after this one. I only wanted to do up to the top 25 all time anyway. I extended it to top 50 to give more to talk about during the lockout.

Yeah the amount of posts in the threads have gone down as the list goes further down don't know why, but more people were voting which is a hell of a lot better than what were donig now

KnicksorBust
08-24-2011, 10:31 PM
Well, Iverson got 6 votes, Wade 4 and Cousy 4... don;'t think there's many other options there :)

I actually think Cousy had 5. :) He's on the verge. I'm hopeful.

LakersIn5
08-25-2011, 12:13 AM
-Big East Rookie of the Year award
-2X Big East Defensive Player of the Year
-First team AP All-American, 1996
-97 Rookie Of The Year
-97 Rookie Game MVP
-97 All Rookie First-Team
-7 x All-NBA Selection
-3 x steals champion(01,02,03)
-4 x NBA Scoring Champion(99,01,02,05)
-11 x NBA All-Star
-2 x NBA All-Star Game MVP(01,05)
-2001 NBA MVP
-1983 Career Steals (12th all-time)
-5624 Career Assists(4th Actively)
-24,368 Career Points in just 914 games played (17th all-time)
-One of only 5 players in NBA History to average at least 30 ppg and 8 apg in a season
-Career Average of 2.2 SPG(7th all-time)
-Career Average of 6.2 APG
-Career Average of 26.7 PPG(6th all-time)
-5 Consecutive games of 40+ points as a rookie
-Playoff Steal record
-Became fifth player ever to make an average of 30 points and seven assists in a season

vote: ALLEN IVERSON

MTar786
08-25-2011, 01:46 AM
JB.. i understand the difficulty of making these threads and monitoring each vote manually instead of using a poll and i know we ALL appreciate that.. but i dont like how we have to feel forced to say why we pick so and so.. in every poll i backed up my argument to a degree because there is ALWAYS someone out there who is going to call you out anyway. i think these threads are dying without polls. i suggest you put them back up. Thanks though.. You have been going through a lot for this site.. but i just dont want to see this poll dead before we hit top 30.

anyway.. i think pippen was voted too high.

i think guys like, isiah thomas, AI and wade deserve to go before him.. pippen belongs with the likes of drexler, wilkins, ewing and kidd maybe. that tier is more fitting for him
after that id go, nash payton etc..

my vote: AI
my nom: Tmac

Stuckey#3
08-25-2011, 01:54 AM
Isiah Thomas. Led the Pistons to two NBA Championships during the NBA's "Golden Age". They had a lot of defense... but Isiah led the charge as a point guard none the less. If you are not convinced watch some of the playoff games they show on ESPN Classics. This dude was the real deal and should have been top 25 IMO. I think Wade will surpass him... eventually.

Stuckey#3
08-25-2011, 01:57 AM
Also my vote is not for AI... but I think people are hating on him way too much; and most of the hate comes from the medias opinion that is consistently projected onto the NBA fanbase. If there were one player to argue on stats and awards alone it would be AI... a lot of people forget he is listed at 6'0 165 lbs. Makes you wonder what could of happened if he had signed with Nike instead of Reebok. :)

KingPosey
08-25-2011, 01:59 AM
Would you care to explain why as JB stated in his initial post?

I dont think I NEED to, because you cant discount someone's vote if they are stupid, but sure. He was the best player Jordan said he had ever faced. People dont realize just how bad those Kings teams were, and he faced literally triple teams every night.

All NBA 2nd teams often, a very good defender, playing the same time as Jordan and some season Clyde, kept him off of first teams. Jordan will do that to you I guess. He scored almost 22 points per game for his first 10 seasons, the list is very short of players to accomplish this.

ROY, All star MVP(ya i know, kinda cheesy), Gold Medalist.

Playing for the Kings and playing contemporary to Jordan made this guy one of the most overlooked players of his era and maybe ever.

Honestly if you didnt watch him play, you have no clue what he was. He was special, and I hate to say it, but my Kings wasted a HOF, all time talent.

If the greatest player of all time, who played against Bird, Magic, Clyde, etc, gives you a ringing endorsement as the best player he has ever faced, you are probably also one of the best players there ever was.

The fact that guys like AI, TMAC (injuries), ****ing Shawn Kemp (nominated), and other players he is clearly better than over a full career is ridiculous and insulting to him. I really think there are too many SUPER young guys on this site. They know the 5 guys they are supposed to call GOATS from the past, and then only rank players from the last 10 years, which isnt good because a lot of the players from this new era suck.

KingPosey
08-25-2011, 02:05 AM
If you can't explain why you are voting for a player, then what use will the poll have? The poll doesn't really create much discussion unless you are also participating in the thread and making a case for a player.

If you have an exam in school and one is multiple choice, whereas another is multiple choice but you have to work out the problem and explain how you got your results, then which is more beneficial and shows you know what is going on?

What use is there in HAVING to explain your answer? You dont get to say a vote doesnt count if you dont agree, so the issue is pointless.

Stuckey#3
08-25-2011, 02:20 AM
JB I want to nominate Dennis Rodman... HOF inductee and arguably the best rebounder of all time... plenty of rings and plenty of season awards/teams.

KingPosey
08-25-2011, 02:28 AM
^
Nice sleeper pick Stuckey.

Chronz
08-25-2011, 02:34 AM
anyway.. i think pippen was voted too high.

i think guys like, isiah thomas, AI and wade deserve to go before him..
Based on what? Talking about AI


pippen belongs with the likes of drexler, wilkins, ewing and kidd maybe. that tier is more fitting for him
after that id go, nash payton etc..

I think AI falls behind most of the players you listed, the tier behind them is more fitting for AI.

MTar786
08-25-2011, 02:58 AM
Based on what? Talking about AI


I think AI falls behind most of the players you listed, the tier behind them is more fitting for AI.

my personal opinion is tat AI is better than pippen and that he would have been more efficient if he had good players to play with. ai got his team to the finals on his own. pippen couldnt do that when he was given the team when mj left. there are many arguments i could bring up.. but theyre all opinionated. but about the tier thing.. you are.. i think i ranked AI a little high.. i actually voted for kidd last thread but no one voted for him. so it was more of a who id rather not see win thread. i feel ai and pippen are both rated too high..
I also think that wade is easily better than pippen ever was and his 6 rings should not be part of any argument. wades 2 finals performances on its on were head and shoulders above whatever pippen did in the finals

Lakersfan2483
08-25-2011, 03:19 AM
Rick Barry. Surprised he is still up on the polls and has not been selected. He was one of the greatest scorers in NBA history, led a team to a title as the main man. He was a perennial all star, scoring champ, very underrated.

Nominate: Paul Pierce

Chronz
08-25-2011, 03:29 AM
my personal opinion is tat AI is better than pippen and that he would have been more efficient if he had good players to play with.
Well we saw him with Melo and he wasnt more effective than Pippen then, we saw Pippen play with MJ and then have a season without him and there was no drastic change in fact some would argue he had his finest season without MJ, so what are you basing your statistical opinion on? Wishful thinking? Why are you rewarding a player on what ifs over a player who didnt need those excuses?


ai got his team to the finals on his own.
Explain to me how AI led his team to a top defensive showing.


pippen couldnt do that when he was given the team when mj left.
So? AI couldnt make the playoffs in his most productive seasons, why are we ignoring these facts? If you mention his support or the strength of the league then why dont you do the same for Pippen. I cant believe you were expecting a team that just lost the best player in the game to make it back to the Finals by eliminating teams AI never had to play, teams that were superior to the Bulls, it makes no sense. It would be like me saying why didnt AI win the Finals. Pippen took that Bulls team as far as it could go and was 1 bad call away from playing in the C.Finals and possibly the Finals. Pippen won 6 chips playing in a fashion that AI cant touch, that he played alongside MJ doesnt change this fact.


there are many arguments i could bring up.. but theyre all opinionated.
Can you bring one up fortified by facts? Some of your opinions are quantifiable to a degree, yet you go against these for the sake of propping up a player who doesnt deserve it.

MTar786
08-25-2011, 03:54 AM
Well we saw him with Melo and he wasnt more effective than Pippen then, we saw Pippen play with MJ and then have a season without him and there was no drastic change in fact some would argue he had his finest season without MJ, so what are you basing your statistical opinion on? Wishful thinking? Why are you rewarding a player on what ifs over a player who didnt need those excuses?


Explain to me how AI led his team to a top defensive showing.

So? AI couldnt make the playoffs in his most productive seasons, why are we ignoring these facts? If you mention his support or the strength of the league then why dont you do the same for Pippen. I cant believe you were expecting a team that just lost the best player in the game to make it back to the Finals by eliminating teams AI never had to play, teams that were superior to the Bulls, it makes no sense. It would be like me saying why didnt AI win the Finals. Pippen took that Bulls team as far as it could go and was 1 bad call away from playing in the C.Finals and possibly the Finals. Pippen won 6 chips playing in a fashion that AI cant touch, that he played alongside MJ doesnt change this fact.


Can you bring one up fortified by facts? Some of your opinions are quantifiable to a degree, yet you go against these for the sake of propping up a player who doesnt deserve it.

wishful reading much?? I never stated any statistical facts.. i just said its my personal opinion that AI was better. But here is a fact: AI NEVER had good talent on his team when he was in his prime. Nor was he given the time to create chemistry with whatever above average teammates he did have.

another fact: Pippen had GREAT talent with him every season of his career. even without mj. the only season you could MAYBE say he didnt was in 99.

1. I never said AI led them to a top defensive effort. i hope you're not implying that theyre defense was the prime factor that got them to the finals and beat the lakers in one game.. or if it was their defense soley that beat vince carter in game 7? was it their defense that made ai get 52 on 21 of 32 shooting in a CRITICAL Game 5 on carter and the raptors?? I also hope you're not implying they would have reaced the finals without AI. AI was pretty much their ENTIRE offense.
I could ask you if it was pippen wo made the bulls offensively superior to everyone?

pippens best season was without mj.. thats my opinion at least. and he got the bulls to the second round.

Ai took the sixer FURTHER tan they could go.

why would you base ai on his two seasons at an old age with melo? That doesnt mean much. Pippen had a career with the goat.

ai played in a fashion that pippen could not touch either. (thats probably because they are different player) thats pretty logical.

Ai was an offensive beast who required double teams and was a complete scoring threat. thats something pippen wasnt even close to.

Anyway, i dont think so highly of AI.. So i dont know why you are trying to use me to argue anything. You are forcing an argument asking me about statistical facts when i told you that its my personal opinion. I watched them both play.. and when theyd come play my lakers AI struck more fear into me. That is what my opinion is soley based on. I could care less about the two players now anyway. if anything its more that i think that you think too highly of pippen. like my point was earlier. i dont think AI is up there with these guys. and that i voted kidd before. but pippen doesnt either.
I dont know why you are trying to convince me that pippen is better than AI. I dont care whether you think pippen is better than him or not. why should you care if i think AI is better? Look, you made me type so much for two players i dont care for. Lets argue about shaq, kobe, kareem or magic
U psd mods are tricksters I tell you!! haha.. u and JB scheming ways to get people to post long arguments.. im onto the two of you =P

ai and pippen dont belong in the top 30.

wade owns both

Chronz
08-25-2011, 04:47 AM
wishful reading much?? I never stated any statistical facts.. i just said its my personal opinion that AI was better.
But you did state that you thought AI would have been more efficient with better teammates, so I asked you what you were basing it on. We saw AI in all sorts of roles. We saw him with a good team in Denver, we saw him clash with all sorts of offensive performers so the team scratched that idea and began surrounding him with defenders. He doesnt really have a history of a guy who was easy to build around. On the other hand we saw Pippen without MJ and we saw him raise his game to a higher level. Why does AI need excuses Pippen didnt?


But here is a fact: AI NEVER had good talent on his team when he was in his prime. Nor was he given the time to create chemistry with whatever above average teammates he did have.

So then your basing your entire opinion of his greatness on something that you have no evidence for? AI not having elite talent doesnt exonerate his lack of efficiency, ANY player could be more efficient with more help. The difference here is, Pippen was the kind of guy you could plug in anywhere and no matter what you knew he would impact the game defensively at an elite level. AI was only great when he could dominate the ball and if his teammates didnt adhere to his playing style then your not going to get the best out of your players.


another fact: Pippen had GREAT talent with him every season of his career. even without mj. the only season you could MAYBE say he didnt was in 99.

Great? I dont see any GREAT talent on that team that lost MJ, I saw a great player lead his team beyond their talent level.


1. I never said AI led them to a top defensive effort. i hope you're not implying that theyre defense was the prime factor that got them to the finals and beat the lakers in one game.. or if it was their defense soley that beat vince carter in game 7? was it their defense that made ai get 52 on 21 of 32 shooting in a CRITICAL Game 5 on carter and the raptors?? I also hope you're not implying they would have reaced the finals without AI. AI was pretty much their ENTIRE offense.
Its not Rocket science, the D was the main reason that team won, its simple math. If you have a top defensive team and a middling offensive one then your winning on the strength of that defense, and thats something AI didnt provide.

Its a myth that AI carried that team, the truth is that team performed to the level of should have given its talent. AI didnt carry some scrubs, those scrubs are what made that defense so special. Think of it logically, how can AI go from carrying his team to the Finals to not even being able to carry his team to the playoffs? Obviously your neglecting a huge portion of that equation.


I could ask you if it was pippen wo made the bulls offensively superior to everyone?

Pippen contributed on both ends and was the driving force behind their top defensive showing.


pippens best season was without mj.. thats my opinion at least. and he got the bulls to the second round.

So then why are you making these excuses for AI's lack of efficiency on his teammates when we just saw Pippen play at an even higher level without the greatest player of all time?


Ai took the sixer FURTHER tan they could go.
He took them to their talent level and he almost messed that up by needing to go the distance in every series despite having what was clearly the best team in the conference. It wasnt like he was an underdog facing a team with clearly superior efficiency differentials the way Pip was vs the Knicks. He faced a bunch of sorry teams and still needed alot help to get as far as he did.


why would you base ai on his two seasons at an old age with melo? That doesnt mean much. Pippen had a career with the goat.

AI was coming off his finest statistical season before the trade, in an era that opened up the game for players like him.


ai played in a fashion that pippen could not touch either. (thats probably because they are different player) thats pretty logical.

I guess you have a point here


Ai was an offensive beast who required double teams and was a complete scoring threat. thats something pippen wasnt even close to.

Not even close to? If you think a guy who was so versatile for his position that they had him running the offense isnt close to AI offensively then the gap between AI and Pippen defensively must be astronomical.

Besides Pippen was doubled plenty, the reason he expanded his range the year MJ left was to counteract the doubles sent his way. However big you think the gap is offensively, it pales to the defensive comparison between the 2.


Anyway, i dont think so highly of AI.. So i dont know why you are trying to use me to argue anything. You are forcing an argument asking me about statistical facts when i told you that its my personal opinion.
Im "using" you because thats the point of this thread. And opinions are fine, but when you start using quantifiable terms based on efficiency, you dont think its fair to ask for evidence? We have evidence of Pippen losing the best player on the planet and playing even greater as an individual, why cant AI do the same?

Raps08-09 Champ
08-25-2011, 05:10 AM
Wade.

He's a boss. And I don't want AI to win.

Nominate Alex English again just because he is a BAMF.

MTar786
08-25-2011, 05:24 AM
chronz.. i never mentioned anything about efficiency beside the fact that i said if he had talent on his teams his efficiency would be a lot better. that is logical. less mins, better shot selection. being doubled all day because there are no reprocussions. double ai and leave eric snow lol. double ai and let theo ratliff take over...

Cano4prez
08-25-2011, 06:00 AM
Wade was efficient with nobody decent on his team..

Chronz
08-25-2011, 06:14 AM
chronz.. i never mentioned anything about efficiency beside the fact that i said if he had talent on his teams his efficiency would be a lot better. that is logical. less mins, better shot selection. being doubled all day because there are no reprocussions. double ai and leave eric snow lol. double ai and let theo ratliff take over...

Again, why does AI need this excuse? Pippen lost the greatest player of all time and played even better. You dont see anyone saying, well if Pippen had MJ he would have been better, no he posted the best #'s of his career sans MJ.

Your viewpoint on efficiency is the exact opposite of logical based on what Ive seen over the years.

Chronz
08-25-2011, 06:19 AM
Wade was efficient with nobody decent on his team..

Wade had one of the finest individual seasons of any era when he had to carry his team. Yet AI needs help just to reach his full potential, thats sad.

naps
08-25-2011, 07:06 AM
How did pippen go over Wade is still beyond me. Pippen was a great defender and is probably the greatest 2nd option but Wade is a legit 1st. Pippen neither led his team to the promised land, nor his peak was even near Wade's.

MTar786
08-25-2011, 08:26 AM
Again, why does AI need this excuse? Pippen lost the greatest player of all time and played even better. You dont see anyone saying, well if Pippen had MJ he would have been better, no he posted the best #'s of his career sans MJ.

Your viewpoint on efficiency is the exact opposite of logical based on what Ive seen over the years.

id understand what you were saying if pippen was the only scoring option on his team. not the #1 option but THE ONLY scoring option. id also understand what ur trying to say if it was pippen who was playing with eric snow, theo ratliff and matt geiger instead of horace grant, bj armstrong, toni kukoc an a defending 3 time championship squad. you make them sound like scrubs when infact they were no where near that.

horace grant gave like what? 16 and 11 on near 55% fg
bj armstrong was also a 15ppg guy on HIGH fg% for a guard

also the bulls played well while pippen was injured in the 94 season.

use logic.. you keep talking about it. is it not logical to say that pippen could differ to guys like grant, bj and toni even though he was a rookie. they were scoring threats.

who did ai have? aaron mckie. you dont differ to talent like that unless you have to.
no offense chronz.. but u either have something against AI or ur biased. like ive mentioned before i could care less about the two.. but ur arguments seem to have a different agenda.. like AI dissed you when you met him as a kid.

I dont care about AI, but i respect the fact that he could take eric snow, aaron mckie, matt gieger, tyrone hill and an over the hill mutombo (for half a season) to the NBA finals AND beat my Lakers in one of the games when portland, san antonio and sac town couldnt even get 1 game on us. Ive never seen heart like that.. the will do drop 50 against the team in the NBA finals that would OBVIOUSLY win anyway.

MTar786
08-25-2011, 08:35 AM
Wade was efficient with nobody decent on his team..

thats why wade ***** on iverson and pippen

Swashcuff
08-25-2011, 09:25 AM
I dont think I NEED to, because you cant discount someone's vote if they are stupid, but sure. He was the best player Jordan said he had ever faced. People dont realize just how bad those Kings teams were, and he faced literally triple teams every night.

:confused:

I never said you need to. The is a sports forum where people come and share they opinion and have debates on it. I'm not saying you need to but anyone saying Mitch Richmond over guys like Ewing, Wade, Frazier, Walton, Gervin, Hayes, Kidd, Drexler, Nash, Cousy, Barry etc etc etc etc should at least attempt to explain his POV.

I case you haven't noticed you are voting in vain because Richmond hasn't been nominated and will not be for quite some time.


All NBA 2nd teams often, a very good defender, playing the same time as Jordan and some season Clyde, kept him off of first teams. Jordan will do that to you I guess. He scored almost 22 points per game for his first 10 seasons, the list is very short of players to accomplish this.

If playing in the same league as Jordan and Clyde kept him off the first team, should that not mean that Clyde should be ahead of him on this list. In fact an argument could be made for Penny Hardaway by that same reasoning.

In Richmond's first 10 seasons in the league he had averages of 23.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg and 3.9 apg. He is one of only seven players in NBA history to average at least 21 points per game in each of his first 10 seasons, joining the elite company of Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Shaquille O'Neal, and Allen Iverson.

As for the list of players averaging over 22 ppg well that list consists of 33 people, many of whom are yet to go in these polls.


ROY, All star MVP(ya i know, kinda cheesy), Gold Medalist.

Playing for the Kings and playing contemporary to Jordan made this guy one of the most overlooked players of his era and maybe ever.

I agree. Richmond is certainly one of the most underrated players to ever play the game.


Honestly if you didnt watch him play, you have no clue what he was. He was special, and I hate to say it, but my Kings wasted a HOF, all time talent.

That could be said about every single player. Unfortunately we can't vote based only on what we have seen. I've never seen Dolph Schayes play but I'm sure somewhere down the road I'll be voting because of what I've read about him, his accolades and his statistical dominance of the era in which he played.


If the greatest player of all time, who played against Bird, Magic, Clyde, etc, gives you a ringing endorsement as the best player he has ever faced, you are probably also one of the best players there ever was.

This is where you are clearly off. If this is part of the reason why you make your vote then I say stop right now and think for a minute.

Michael Jordan never said Richmond was the best player he ever played against, he said Richmond was the toughest match-up. He ever had not the best player he's ever faced. There is a big difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbtn4B5GH-M#t=0m40s

I know I don't need to explain to you exactly what MJ would say something like that. The above video explains all of that.


The fact that guys like AI, TMAC (injuries), ****ing Shawn Kemp (nominated), and other players he is clearly better than over a full career is ridiculous and insulting to him. I really think there are too many SUPER young guys on this site. They know the 5 guys they are supposed to call GOATS from the past, and then only rank players from the last 10 years, which isnt good because a lot of the players from this new era suck.

You know what's the difference between T-Mac, A.I. and Mitch? Success. Not playoff success necessarily (in the case of T-Mac though he is one of the greatest scorers in post season history) but the fact that they consistently made the post season with teams that sucked just as much as the ones Mitch played on.

How is Mitch clearly better than Iverson or McGrady? That's insulting to either of them. Richmond may have more intangible worth than A.I. and T-Mac but even on the Kings he never did anything A.I. or T-Mac couldn't do or haven't done.

All and all I agree that Mitch is very underrated and under appreciated and it has a lot to do with the fact that he did indeed play in Sac Town however to say he deserves to go ahead of so many great players whom I am betting you yourself never saw and blaming the youth of PSD for not voting for Mitch is a tad bit ironic.

bootsy
08-25-2011, 10:03 AM
Isiah AGAIN

pd7631
08-25-2011, 12:33 PM
Its a myth that AI carried that team, the truth is that team performed to the level of should have given its talent. AI didnt carry some scrubs, those scrubs are what made that defense so special.

HAHAHAHA

I can't take this anymore. Please tell me exactly how much of AI's Sixers you watched, because I have not missed a single game since 97', and if you watched AI then you would see that he brought the same amount of defensive effort as every other player on that team and his energy was contagious. AI may not have been the prototypical lockdown defender, but at his size it's pretty tough. He was a whirling dervish of energy and he flew around the court like no other. He dove for loose balls, he got his hands dirty, and he got his team easy baskets by looking like Deion Sanders on a basketball court.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-25-2011, 01:05 PM
Been a bit busy of late so unfortunately haven't been able to contribute or vote. But quickly my vote goes to D Wade here.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-25-2011, 01:47 PM
Also, I agree with others who are saying we should have a poll. It's too late to just change the whole process after 25 players have been voted a different way.

I suggested doing this in the roundtable but they said that it was repetitive.

theheatles
08-25-2011, 03:29 PM
Dwyane Wade, he's already the 3rd best sg ever, he should be top 25 right now...he has 1 of the most legendary post season performances of all time in 06 and continual unanimous all star starter in the most talented generation in nba history

Chronz
08-25-2011, 04:03 PM
id understand what you were saying if pippen was the only scoring option on his team. not the #1 option but THE ONLY scoring option. id also understand what ur trying to say if it was pippen who was playing with eric snow, theo ratliff and matt geiger instead of horace grant, bj armstrong, toni kukoc an a defending 3 time championship squad. you make them sound like scrubs when infact they were no where near that.
Wait so Pippens responsibilities go up and he responds by raising his game isnt proof of this phenomena? LOL Id understand what you were saying if you had any shred of proof but theres more evidence that AI just didnt know how to play without dominating the ball and wouldnt be as effective playing any other way.

Pippen lost the best player on the planet and played even better. It doesnt matter that he had more scoring options because Im not trying to prove that hes something that hes not, AI is a slightly better offensive performer but the fact still remains Pip RAISED HIS GAME when more was put on his plate. Why couldnt AI do the same? If you want a truer comparison amongst CLEARLY superior offensive players then look at Kobe, when Kobe had to carry the offense his game didnt suffer, he put up some of the best #'s ever, same gos for Wade, for Nique, for Gervin, for Tmac, for MJ. Why does AI get a pass for being so inefficient, because you have an opinion of what his efficiency could look like with absolutely no evidence to support it?

That AI needs so much to go right already says alot about him. Im not making the Bulls to be anything other than what they were, your the one trying to make it seem like AI carried scrubs to the Finals remember, those were your exact words yet you were unable to prove how AI carried a dominant defensive club to that level of performance. You didnt explain how AI could go from "carrying teams to Finals" to being unable to even make the playoffs despite him improving as a player. I think its time you start acknowledging those responsible and stop trying to portray AI as some sort of savior. He did his job they did theirs, theirs led to a top defensive showing his led to inefficient results. Pippen and AI is not even a conversation because of the fact that Pip was a 2 way player and dominated on both ends, however big you think the gap is offensively, it is multiplied on the defensive end.


Also Im not buying this idea that AI HAD to hog the ball so much, his teams tried various offensive players alongside him and all failed, so they went the route of surrounding him with players who could impact the game without as so much as demanding their own touches.

I know its hard for you to understand but you dont have to be a scorer to make your team better offensively, look at the effect a facilitator like Andre Miller had on his teammates vs AI;

In 2007 AI and Andre Miller essentially traded places on 2 different teams, these were the results (Ptsx100P):

The Nuggets scored 111.5 with Dre, 108.1 with AI
The Sixers scored 105.4 with AI, 106.9 with Dre.

Now thats a rather simplistic viewpoint so we should delve deeper, we know Dre wasnt scoring left and right so someone else must have, lets look at some notable individuals (guys who played substantial minutes with both) that same year and see if we can find any relationship.

Per 48 Minute Rates: Scoring (fg%)

With Andre Miller With Iverson
Carmelo: 34.4PTS (52%) 27.7PTS (46%)
JR Smith: 21.6PTS (47%) 21.4PTS (41%)
Camby: 15.3PTS (51%) 12.7PTS (45%)
Iggy: 19.1PTS (44%) 13.5PTS (49%)


Same situation happened in 2009 when Billups replaced AI, you didnt see Melo lose that much of his effectiveness playing alongside Billups, in fact his efficiency and scoring rate increased with Billups vs without.


So maybe AI just didnt know how to utilize players he played with, maybe they were capable of shouldering more of the offense but AI couldnt or wouldnt share the rock? Maybe he was so useless in terms of spacing the floor that pairing him with another scorer would have only hurt his game as it did with Melo. If you have ANY evidence please provide some because Im trying really hard and cant find it.

If you were to review the splits from 2004 to 2008, AI's teammates tend to score more without him and often times on a higher FG%. Still you could argue some of these results might be flukes (though certainly not all) so you could look at his teammates in full years, before, during, and after AI. Its a strenuous project but it could shed some light on your theory.




horace grant gave like what? 16 and 11 on near 55% fg
bj armstrong was also a 15ppg guy on HIGH fg% for a guard

also the bulls played well while pippen was injured in the 94 season.

Only in the mind of an AI apologist can a 3-7 record constitute as playing well. And of those 3 wins, there was a 1PT victory against a pathetic Milwaukee team, and a 2PT victory against a sad LA team.



use logic.. you keep talking about it. is it not logical to say that pippen could differ to guys like grant, bj and toni even though he was a rookie. they were scoring threats.

Your logic has failed you


who did ai have? aaron mckie. you dont differ to talent like that unless you have to.
no offense chronz.. but u either have something against AI or ur biased. like ive mentioned before i could care less about the two.. but ur arguments seem to have a different agenda.. like AI dissed you when you met him as a kid.

LOL because I ask for some ANY kind of evidence that would lead to your opinion Im biased? The only thing I have against AI is that his presence this high up is an insult to truly superior players, guys who were not only efficient but defensively dominant. Guys like GP, Pippen, Ewing, were all quality 2-way players.



I dont care about AI, but i respect the fact that he could take eric snow, aaron mckie, matt gieger, tyrone hill and an over the hill mutombo (for half a season) to the NBA finals AND beat my Lakers in one of the when portland, san antonio and sac town couldnt even get 1 game on us. Ive never seen heart like that.. the will do drop 50 against the team in the NBA finals that would OBVIOUSLY win anyway.

You know your over the hill when you just won DPOY :eyebrow: Again AI was carried to that defensive level, and why would I care that he won 1 game? The Lakers were waiting FOREVER for AI to finish off the Bucks they were clearly rusty and exhibited their dominance afterwards. Its not as if the Sixers were a greater team than the Spurs or Kings or Blazers because of that 1 win.

Chronz
08-25-2011, 04:07 PM
I can't take this anymore. Please tell me exactly how much of AI's Sixers you watched, because I have not missed a single game since 97',
This only makes you biased not more informed, in order to be well informed I would be more impressed by how many youve seen OUTSIDE of Philly as it would give you a basis for comparison, but even then without a certain level of statistical understanding your opinion wouldnt carry as much weight as joe blow with a calculator.


and if you watched AI then you would see that he brought the same amount of defensive effort as every other player on that team and his energy was contagious.
Effort does not equate to contributions, you can try as hard as you want, your still a pint sized SG who cant defend his own position and had to have a PG do it for him.


AI may not have been the prototypical lockdown defender, but at his size it's pretty tough.
Not the prototypical defender? Thats one way of putting it. We have different definitions of tough, Pierce is a tough defender, Tmac at his apex was a tough defender who could defend 1-4 and would even anchor his teams zone defenses at the 5, now thats a tough, prototypical defender.

No matter how tough AI is, hes not tough enough to overcome that height/strength differential. His sole means of helping a defense came with high risk gambles, you had to surround him with guys who could absolutely hold it down whenever he had lapses of judgement, its why he was at his best Steals wise alongside Snow+Shotblocker.

MacFitz92
08-25-2011, 05:32 PM
I'll vote for Jason Kidd. I've already said why he should be higher than this. He's everything you could want in a PG. One of the best passers of all time, one of the best defenders of all time, one of the best rebounding PGs of all time, all around stud.

Nominate: Adrian Dantley

Bruno
08-26-2011, 09:08 PM
Poll added.

DR_1
08-26-2011, 10:40 PM
These threads died, thanks JB

This, especially with the last one

The_Pharouh
08-27-2011, 05:25 AM
I voted for Scottie Pippen four times now

MTar786
08-27-2011, 05:33 AM
Wait so Pippens responsibilities go up and he responds by raising his game isnt proof of this phenomena? LOL Id understand what you were saying if you had any shred of proof but theres more evidence that AI just didnt know how to play without dominating the ball and wouldnt be as effective playing any other way.

Pippen lost the best player on the planet and played even better. It doesnt matter that he had more scoring options because Im not trying to prove that hes something that hes not, AI is a slightly better offensive performer but the fact still remains Pip RAISED HIS GAME when more was put on his plate. Why couldnt AI do the same? If you want a truer comparison amongst CLEARLY superior offensive players then look at Kobe, when Kobe had to carry the offense his game didnt suffer, he put up some of the best #'s ever, same gos for Wade, for Nique, for Gervin, for Tmac, for MJ. Why does AI get a pass for being so inefficient, because you have an opinion of what his efficiency could look like with absolutely no evidence to support it?

That AI needs so much to go right already says alot about him. Im not making the Bulls to be anything other than what they were, your the one trying to make it seem like AI carried scrubs to the Finals remember, those were your exact words yet you were unable to prove how AI carried a dominant defensive club to that level of performance. You didnt explain how AI could go from "carrying teams to Finals" to being unable to even make the playoffs despite him improving as a player. I think its time you start acknowledging those responsible and stop trying to portray AI as some sort of savior. He did his job they did theirs, theirs led to a top defensive showing his led to inefficient results. Pippen and AI is not even a conversation because of the fact that Pip was a 2 way player and dominated on both ends, however big you think the gap is offensively, it is multiplied on the defensive end.


Also Im not buying this idea that AI HAD to hog the ball so much, his teams tried various offensive players alongside him and all failed, so they went the route of surrounding him with players who could impact the game without as so much as demanding their own touches.

I know its hard for you to understand but you dont have to be a scorer to make your team better offensively, look at the effect a facilitator like Andre Miller had on his teammates vs AI;

In 2007 AI and Andre Miller essentially traded places on 2 different teams, these were the results (Ptsx100P):

The Nuggets scored 111.5 with Dre, 108.1 with AI
The Sixers scored 105.4 with AI, 106.9 with Dre.

Now thats a rather simplistic viewpoint so we should delve deeper, we know Dre wasnt scoring left and right so someone else must have, lets look at some notable individuals (guys who played substantial minutes with both) that same year and see if we can find any relationship.

Per 48 Minute Rates: Scoring (fg%)

With Andre Miller With Iverson
Carmelo: 34.4PTS (52%) 27.7PTS (46%)
JR Smith: 21.6PTS (47%) 21.4PTS (41%)
Camby: 15.3PTS (51%) 12.7PTS (45%)
Iggy: 19.1PTS (44%) 13.5PTS (49%)


Same situation happened in 2009 when Billups replaced AI, you didnt see Melo lose that much of his effectiveness playing alongside Billups, in fact his efficiency and scoring rate increased with Billups vs without.


So maybe AI just didnt know how to utilize players he played with, maybe they were capable of shouldering more of the offense but AI couldnt or wouldnt share the rock? Maybe he was so useless in terms of spacing the floor that pairing him with another scorer would have only hurt his game as it did with Melo. If you have ANY evidence please provide some because Im trying really hard and cant find it.

If you were to review the splits from 2004 to 2008, AI's teammates tend to score more without him and often times on a higher FG%. Still you could argue some of these results might be flukes (though certainly not all) so you could look at his teammates in full years, before, during, and after AI. Its a strenuous project but it could shed some light on your theory.



chronz.. u know, this is a perfect example of showing evidence and stating fact in an argument could lean towards a change of opinioon without being stubborn. I say that because all the things you said make a lot of sense. So i decided to add some extra research in on my own side about ai. and ya, i think im going to agree with you. pippen is the better player. I still think you downplay AI a little.. but I def over rated him.. thats for sure. Thanks for all those facts.. like how a mere swap of ai and dre made things worse off for the nugs and better for the sixers. :cheers:

tev_dodd
08-27-2011, 09:25 AM
I stuck with Jason Kidd, but for me Parish was tempting

Swashcuff
08-27-2011, 10:01 AM
It's a real shame that Rick Barry is getting so little love on here. IMO he has just as strong a case as anyone on here.

It's also a damn shame that Artis Gilmore is YET to be nominated. I mean the man had a higher PER, WS/48, TS% and more career Win Shares than anyone who has received votes on this poll. However that's inclusive of his time in the ABA if we take those years out he only suffers in the WS department and falls to 3rd in that regard. How could he not be an option I don't have a clue.

What Artis lacks in the accolade department he made up for with production. He was a phenomenal player and I'll keep nominating him until he's on the board.

If these players are being penalized for playing some of their better years in the ABA I think it's a wrong in all honesty, they still had amazing NBA careers.

Bruno
08-27-2011, 04:50 PM
chronz.. u know, this is a perfect example of showing evidence and stating fact in an argument could lean towards a change of opinioon without being stubborn. I say that because all the things you said make a lot of sense. So i decided to add some extra research in on my own side about ai. and ya, i think im going to agree with you. pippen is the better player. I still think you downplay AI a little.. but I def over rated him.. thats for sure. Thanks for all those facts.. like how a mere swap of ai and dre made things worse off for the nugs and better for the sixers. :cheers:

Takes a standup guy to make a post like this. The forum is a much better place when people are open to new ideas and information, and willing to change their POV if the right information is presented. Much respect MTar.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-28-2011, 03:50 AM
Where's the love for Walt Frazier? I'd actually like to switch my vote to him.

tredigs
08-28-2011, 04:24 AM
Where's the love for Walt Frazier? I'd actually like to switch my vote to him.

Over Rick Barry? Tough Sell. I'm not buying.

Swashcuff
08-28-2011, 09:34 AM
Where's the love for Walt Frazier? I'd actually like to switch my vote to him.

I can hear that, while I think Walt wasn't as great Barry his 2 finals runs were hella impressive, though Reed won both finals MVPs if you ask me Walt was the best player on those teams. I wont vote him this soon but I can hear someone making a case for him. It's a shame he isn't getting much love either.

GoPacers33
08-28-2011, 09:54 AM
reggie reggie reggie

Swashcuff
08-28-2011, 10:04 AM
reggie reggie reggie

Could we take away voting privledges from this poster? He is yet to add a single shred of common sense to any of these threads or MileHigh's threads. You can dislike the fact that A.I. continues to get votes this early but at least the A.I. voters gave their reasoning, argued it and added to the debate. You haven't even attempted to defend your guys and no matter how much you are challenged you never reply. If you ask me you shouldn't be allowed to have a say in this vote. At least defend yourself man.

Vincent33
08-28-2011, 08:43 PM
I voted Isiah Thomas. Top 5 PG in NBA history, no doubt. Helped carry the Pistons to back to back championships over the Lakers and Blazers.

I would also like to nominate Pete Maravich to be inlcuded on the list. I don't know why he isn't on here yet, one of the most creative basketball players in history, career cut short due to knee problems and was still named to 50 greatest players on NBAs 50th anniversary.

Maravich needs to be on the list.