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View Full Version : Is Pippen a hall of famer only because of Jordan?



Federal Reserve
08-23-2011, 11:05 AM
I truly believe that Jordan turned Pippen into a hall of famer. Without Jordan, Pippen would just be a perennial all-star with a few solid games under his belt. When Jordan retired (the second time), Pippen tried to team up with Hakeem and Barkley and couldn't help his team out at all. Then he joined the Blazers and blew a 15 point, 4th quarter lead in game 7 against the Lakers. That was easily the best choke I have seen in my life. The guy could never be the number 1 option and be successful, simultaneously.

JordansBulls
08-23-2011, 11:08 AM
Most of the writers and articles point to that MJ aided Pippen into becoming the player he became.

Here are a few:


Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)


“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909



“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”




http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html


Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.


http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html



Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.

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Sam: You can't judge with Portland given he was well past his athletic prime and had lost basically all his explosiveness and was operating on guile. He was a much smarter player than ever given credit for, though many still question his top 50 inclusion. The notion is if not for Jordan, there would be no chance. And I tend to agree. If he were picked by the Clippers at No. 4 in that draft as he should have been, he would not have been a top 50 player because he couldn't create that much for himself. But he wasn't and he was the No. 2 part of six championships and was a multiple defensive player and gold medalist on the Dream Team. So he deserves the recognition and will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a result. Most everyone who has succeeded has benefitted from good timing on occasion. Pippen did as well, but he also made the most of it.




http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558



CHICAGO -- The Detroit Pistons may have toughened up the Bulls in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but Jerry Krause wouldn't give the Bad Boys any undue credit for contributing to Scottie Pippen's basketball manhood or his Hall of Fame career.

"No, Michael [Jordan] made him a man," said the Bulls' former general manager, now a scout for the White Sox. "The Pistons didn't have anything to do with that. Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And then when Phil [Jackson] brought the triangle [offense] in, it really helped him because he had all the physical skills to be great."





"And he had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death," Krause said. "The practices were great because you could see him at the end of the year start to grow and start to fight Michael . . ."

Law25
08-23-2011, 11:28 AM
Jordan made him who he was as an player, but without Pippen no rings. So yes he belongs as an top fifty until a few current players retire.

ManRam
08-23-2011, 11:42 AM
Clearly you never saw Pippen's season(s) without Jordan...

Of course Jordan helped him, especially because people can't realize that winning championships is a TEAM accomplishment and if he didn't win 6 he wouldn't be as highly regarded...but the same goes for Jordan. Jordan doesn't win 6 without Pippen, and if he doesn't win 6, he's not going to be regarded as the GOAT, even though he'd still be as good of a player (again, people get caught up in rings).

rapjuicer06
08-23-2011, 11:53 AM
Michael made him a better player, but Pippen had to want to do it in order to become it. So Pippen made himself

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 11:58 AM
I think the OP is a baiter and maybe a Bulls hater. Why star threads like these? Pippen is a top 5 perimeter defender of all time and is the epitome of what a point forward should be. Without Jordan IMO he'd still be a HOFer, he's one of the most gifted players to ever play the game and the perfect compliment to any superstar PG, SG, PF, C. By himself he ain't no scrub either.

In the prime of his career without MJ he lead the Bulls to a 55-27 record and finished 3rd in MVP voting while posting a monster stat line. I mean when you replace MICHAEL JORDAN with pete myers and still win 55 games. That guy is a HOFer with or without the help of Michael Jordan.

JordansBulls
08-23-2011, 12:07 PM
I think the OP is a baiter and maybe a Bulls hater. Why star threads like these? Pippen is a top 5 perimeter defender of all time and is the epitome of what a point forward should be. Without Jordan IMO he'd still be a HOFer, he's one of the most gifted players to ever play the game and the perfect compliment to any superstar PG, SG, PF, C. By himself he ain't no scrub either.

In the prime of his career without MJ he lead the Bulls to a 55-27 record and finished 3rd in MVP voting while posting a monster stat line. I mean when you replace MICHAEL JORDAN with pete myers and still win 55 games. That guy is a HOFer with or without the help of Michael Jordan.

Again though this is after he had already played with MJ. Basically my understanding is how good would he had been had he never played with MJ.

Hellcrooner
08-23-2011, 12:15 PM
The real question here is, with no pippen how many rings do jordan have? do anyone consider jordan the goat?.

And btw im SURE if Jordan stayed retired , pippen would have ended up winning one leading the bulls once rodman, longley and harper went on board.

trini_knickfan
08-23-2011, 12:18 PM
100% yes

KingPosey
08-23-2011, 12:22 PM
You guys are putting the "proper spin" on this, but Federal Reserve means it in a turdy way. He just posts belligerent posts.

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 12:27 PM
Again though this is after he had already played with MJ. Basically my understanding is how good would he had been had he never played with MJ.

IMO without ever playing with Jordan Pippen would have been a more complete rich man's Bobby Jones. That type of player would be a HOFer whether or not he played with MJ. All of this is purely hypothetical, so I don't think any of us could accurately say that he would or wouldn't, but based on Pippen's skill and overall ability I think that he is a HOF calibre player regardless.

OlivaThor
08-23-2011, 12:30 PM
Pippen a hall of famer because of Pippen!

JordansBulls
08-23-2011, 12:37 PM
The real question here is, with no pippen how many rings do jordan have? do anyone consider jordan the goat?.

And btw im SURE if Jordan stayed retired , pippen would have ended up winning one leading the bulls once rodman, longley and harper went on board.

You mean getting a guy who came in to be an 8 and 4 player as a rookie and that was coming off the bench? I mean Magic decided to go to the Lakers because they already had a proven winner there.

And there is no way in hell Pippen wins as the man with Rodman and them there. He could barely produce.

Pippen averaged 16ppg 6.4reb 5.2ast 2.0stl .8blk 47%fg for his career and people talk about him like he was playing on LeBron's level. The one thing people never talk about with Pippen is the fact that yes he averaged 17ppg in the playoffs 7.6reb and 5.0ast, but Pippen shot 44% in the playoffs for his career. Pippen shot 39% in the 96 playoffs, Pippen shot 41% in the 97 and 98 playoffs. The first year Pippen played in the playoffs without Jordan(99) Pippen shot 32.9% in the playoffs that year. Pippen only had one season shooting over 50% in the playoffs and that was the 90 playoffs when he made 50.4% of his shots. Other than that, he was a streaky scorer, overrated passer and ball handler, overrated defender, and he only shot 30% from 3 point land to go with 72% free throws for his career in the playoffs.
And even in 1994 was 3rd on his team in playoff Win Shares.

Hellcrooner
08-23-2011, 12:47 PM
^lol at you playing the "magic blah blah" card.

Getr over it Pippen GOT ROBBED in the series vs the Knicks they would have won the next round too so at worst he should have played a finals vs Rockets.

Lake_Show2416
08-23-2011, 12:53 PM
^lol at you playing the "magic blah blah" card.

Getr over it Pippen GOT ROBBED in the series vs the Knicks they would have won the next round too so at worst he should have played a finals vs Rockets.

nice to see history being rewritten on wut should/could have happened

rapjuicer06
08-23-2011, 01:04 PM
It's just sad to see a Bulls fan down talk Pippen to make Jordan look better :(

ATLPRIMETIME21
08-23-2011, 01:05 PM
I really think without MJ, Pippen would have still been a HOFer..Scottie had all the talent and physical tools to be great. MJ just helped him out mentally

JordansBulls
08-23-2011, 01:19 PM
It's just sad to see a Bulls fan down talk Pippen to make Jordan look better :(

What do you mean down talk when he came into the league coming off the bench. It's seems quite the opposite that people are overrating him to make it seem that MJ had this star from the beginning when every other top 10 player all time always had guys who either won league or finals mvp or had led teams to the finals as the man when they won.

My point is that Jordan didn't win because of Pippen, Pippen won because of Jordan. Jordan was the established star, was the most productive player on the team and was the one that outplayed each and everyone in every playoff series and outscored each and everyone.

Also I provided substancial amount of articles pointing to the fact on how MJ helped Scottie along the way.

Law25
08-23-2011, 01:29 PM
You mean getting a guy who came in to be an 8 and 4 player as a rookie and that was coming off the bench? I mean Magic decided to go to the Lakers because they already had a proven winner there.

And there is no way in hell Pippen wins as the man with Rodman and them there. He could barely produce.

Pippen averaged 16ppg 6.4reb 5.2ast 2.0stl .8blk 47%fg for his career and people talk about him like he was playing on LeBron's level. The one thing people never talk about with Pippen is the fact that yes he averaged 17ppg in the playoffs 7.6reb and 5.0ast, but Pippen shot 44% in the playoffs for his career. Pippen shot 39% in the 96 playoffs, Pippen shot 41% in the 97 and 98 playoffs. The first year Pippen played in the playoffs without Jordan(99) Pippen shot 32.9% in the playoffs that year. Pippen only had one season shooting over 50% in the playoffs and that was the 90 playoffs when he made 50.4% of his shots. Other than that, he was a streaky scorer, overrated passer and ball handler, overrated defender, and he only shot 30% from 3 point land to go with 72% free throws for his career in the playoffs.
And even in 1994 was 3rd on his team in playoff Win Shares.

You must forget Pippen job wasnt to to score with Jordan on the team it was to facilitate the offense and defend at which he did at an hall of fame level. He was the teams best on ball defender and help defender. Thats not saying Jordan sucked at it because he was great Pippen was just better. Pippen was also better at runing the offense. Jordan would break the offense and iso much like Kobe did his years with Phil. I also feel Pippen was the teams best passer. IMO

Hellcrooner
08-23-2011, 01:36 PM
What do you mean down talk when he came into the league coming off the bench. It's seems quite the opposite that people are overrating him to make it seem that MJ had this star from the beginning when every other top 10 player all time always had guys who either won league or finals mvp or had led teams to the finals as the man when they won.

My point is that Jordan didn't win because of Pippen, Pippen won because of Jordan. Jordan was the established star, was the most productive player on the team and was the one that outplayed each and everyone in every playoff series and outscored each and everyone.

Also I provided substancial amount of articles pointing to the fact on how MJ helped Scottie along the way.

Yeah and you are forgetting that Kareem except the first year ( when ROBERTSON WAS STILL AROUND) had done JACK the rest of the 70s decade with STACKED bucks and Lakers rosters until "that guy" got to the lakers.

Bruno
08-23-2011, 01:37 PM
I truly believe that Jordan turned Pippen into a hall of famer. Without Jordan, Pippen would just be a perennial all-star with a few solid games under his belt. When Jordan retired (the second time), Pippen tried to team up with Hakeem and Barkley and couldn't help his team out at all. Then he joined the Blazers and blew a 15 point, 4th quarter lead in game 7 against the Lakers. That was easily the best choke I have seen in my life. The guy could never be the number 1 option and be successful, simultaneously.

Pippen was already 33 and past his prime by the '98 season.

He single handedly blew a 15 point lead in the 4th quarter of game seven? He's not a pitcher.

He finished 3rd in MVP voting without MJ in '94. The Bulls won two less regular season games in '94 without MJ, than they did in '93 with MJ.

Competing against the GOAT all day every day obviously fueled his competitive drive, and helped him develop into an elite defender but who doesn't benefit from playing alongside other HOFers? The thread purpose to slight Pippen for the sake of glorifying Jordan is a vain point that has beat to death. Take Pippen off the Bulls and cut Jordans title count in half. Nobody can say what he would have been had he never became a Bull.

Hellcrooner
08-23-2011, 01:41 PM
Pippen was already 33 and past his prime by the '98 season.

He single handedly blew a 15 point lead in the 4th quarter of game seven? He's not a pitcher.

He finished 3rd in MVP voting without MJ in '94. The Bulls won two less regular season games in '94 without MJ, than they did in '93 with MJ.

Competing against the GOAT all day every day obviously fueled his competitive drive, and helped him develop into an elite defender but who doesn't benefit from playing alongside other HOFers? The thread purpose to slight Pippen for the sake of glorifying Jordan is a vain point that has beat to death. Take Pippen off the Bulls and cut Jordans title count in half. Nobody can say what he would have been had he never became a Bull.

only in half?

thers a good chance Mj becomes a second Dr J and maybe wins 1 swichting to another theam like the kNicks

JordansBulls
08-23-2011, 01:44 PM
Yeah and you are forgetting that Kareem except the first year ( when ROBERTSON WAS STILL AROUND) had done JACK the rest of the 70s decade with STACKED bucks and Lakers rosters until "that guy" got to the lakers.

He had won 5 MVP's before Magic even came on board, won a title and finals mvp. How many guys ever played with a guy who won both league and finals mvp before they played with them? The kind of flak that Kobe gets for playing with Shaq is the same that Magic should get for playing with Kareem because both Shaq and Kareem were MVP players before those guys joined. Actually Kareem was since he had already won several.

JordansBulls
08-23-2011, 01:45 PM
You must forget Pippen job wasnt to to score with Jordan on the team it was to facilitate the offense and defend at which he did at an hall of fame level. He was the teams best on ball defender and help defender. Thats not saying Jordan sucked at it because he was great Pippen was just better. Pippen was also better at runing the offense. Jordan would break the offense and iso much like Kobe did his years with Phil. I also feel Pippen was the teams best passer. IMO

A legitimate case can be made for Pippen being better than Jordan defensively peak vs. peak. Jordan was:

- a 9 time defensive first team member (despite retiring twice and being robbed in 1987), tops all time
- DPOY and top 6 in DPOY voting for like a decade straight
- the only player until that time to record 200+ steals/100+ blocks in the same season...and he did it twice in consecutive years
- considered by many to be the best defensive player in the league until his retirement in 1993.

They each had advantages on the other defensively, and both were elite in every defensive area (individual/team/help/off the ball defense; the exception being Pippen's post defense, where he wasn't as stellar as elsewhere). Their defensive primes did not coincide exactly, either, which is why younger fans tend to spout this "Pippen is worlds better than Jordan defensively" -- they tend to only have been fans from '95 onward. Jordan's defensive prime was from '88-'93, and Pippen's was from '92-'97.


Several players (e.g., Mashburn, Penny) abused Pippen in the post pretty frequently. It simply wasn't his strongest area. He wasn't "weak" there, per se, but he wasn't nearly as good as he was in other defensive areas. Jordan was a far superior post defender, actually; it's one of the clearest differences defensively between the two of them (i.e., the area where there's the biggest gap between their respective abilities).



Remember MJ won DPOY. Not Pippen. What you mean stats support Pippen. Lets look at the stats.

Defensive win share

Pippens best defensive WS seasons come without Michael.

1988 MJ 6.1 Pippen (Rookie) 2.6
1989 MJ 5.2 Pippen 3.3
1990 both 4.3 DWS
1991 both 5.4
1992 MJ 5.6 Pippen 5.5
1993 MJ 5.2 Pippen 4.8
1996 MJ 6.2 Pippen 5.3
1997 MJ 5.0 Pippen 5.2
1998 MJ 5.4 Pippen 3.0 (44 games played)

MJ wins out every season except 1.

Michael Jordan gets over 6 rebounds per game as a SG. Pippen gets 6.6 at SF. Michael Jordan gets you a lot more steals. He gets you more blocks. Including a year of 1.6. They have almost the same defensive rating. Your going to have to tell me how the stats say Pippen then.

My eye test says I can remember many games that Pippen lacked the quickness to guard some elite perimeter players. It was very rare for MJ to be lit up by another 2 guard.

Hellcrooner
08-23-2011, 01:55 PM
He had won 5 MVP's before Magic even came on board, won a title and finals mvp. How many guys ever played with a guy who won both league and finals mvp before they played with them? The kind of flak that Kobe gets for playing with Shaq is the same that Magic should get for playing with Kareem because both Shaq and Kareem were MVP players before those guys joined. Actually Kareem was since he had already won several.

yeah the difference is Shaq hadnt even peaked when kobe got to the team and was a mid 20s.

while Kareem was at the 30 mark

J-Relo
08-23-2011, 03:23 PM
Yes, Pippen is a Hof because of MJ, and yes, MJ is the goat because of Pippen.

albertc86
08-23-2011, 04:56 PM
Yes, Pippen is a Hof because of MJ, and yes, MJ is the goat because of Pippen.

Pretty much.

I remember reading an article awhile back about former Bulls players saying how MJ and Pippen used to go at it in practice. They [former teammates] said MJ and Pippen would have the best 1 on 1 games that the general public would never get to see.

Chronz
08-23-2011, 05:14 PM
only in half?

thers a good chance Mj becomes a second Dr J and maybe wins 1 swichting to another theam like the kNicks

Nah, even if MJ had never won a title hes still better than Doc, quite easily actually

D Roses Bulls
08-23-2011, 06:00 PM
I truly believe that Jordan turned Pippen into a hall of famer. Without Jordan, Pippen would just be a perennial all-star with a few solid games under his belt. When Jordan retired (the second time), Pippen tried to team up with Hakeem and Barkley and couldn't help his team out at all. Then he joined the Blazers and blew a 15 point, 4th quarter lead in game 7 against the Lakers. That was easily the best choke I have seen in my life. The guy could never be the number 1 option and be successful, simultaneously.

what? pippen was 30 something years old and his back problems had already taken a toll on him. he wasn't the same player. pippen maybe would of became the player he was without jordan pushing him, but the bulls should of at least made it to the finals in 94 and a lot of people believe the bulls would of won it in 94 as well. the bulls were cheated that year in what is still called, the worst call ever in a playoff game. I don't care for stephen a smith, but he is right on this. go to 3:47 in the video if it already doesn't go to it already. pippen is a top 50 player of all time. PERIOD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ny6SgOP2JY

Bos_Sports4Life
08-23-2011, 06:03 PM
and this is why I think mj has gotten too the point where people actually overrate him...

NO ONE can MAKE a hof career except the hof'er himself. People like too say pippen is a hof'er bc he got too play jordan in practice and got too listen too jordans great wisdom ect ect..that crap is absurd

Can situations help your career? Sure but...if you go on this path..


* What would kobe have done without jackson/Shaq, would kobe have matured? ect ect


* Without Russell, is Red Auerbach thought about as a great coach? What about Russell, is he still thought about as a great winner without Red


* Without Bill.B, whats Brady's Legacy, what about the other way around?


The list can go on and on and on.....Fact is..Pippen IS a hof player, trying too deflect a lot of that credit on mj is showing no respect too the man who did put in the work too get there

TheRunKiller
08-23-2011, 06:50 PM
If it wasn't for Shaq, Kobe would only have 2 rings

Hellcrooner
08-23-2011, 07:09 PM
Nah, even if MJ had never won a title hes still better than Doc, quite easily actually

Wasnt talkiong bout Actual Skills but bout historical "perception" from fans.

RevisIsland
08-23-2011, 07:11 PM
I'm sick of people underrating Scottie Pippen. This is a guy who was truly great in his own right. When MJ retired did the Bulls fall apart? Nope, they rallied around Scottie and had a very solid season. With the right supporting cast, Scottie Pippen could have been the best player on a title team, even multiple title teams. He was a 25 point scorer and the greatest perimeter defender in NBA history. Give him his due.

RevisIsland
08-23-2011, 07:13 PM
If it wasn't for Shaq, Kobe would only have 2 rings

If it wasn't for Kobe, Shaq would only have one.

AIRMAR72
08-24-2011, 01:57 AM
its hard to say but mike did played a major role in pippen being mentally tough and his work ethic and overall game pip and connie hawkins (the ABA version) were two of the BEST SF to EVER played in the league both guys are superior to bron(ima bron fan) but thats my opinion

Chronz
08-24-2011, 02:29 AM
Wasnt talkiong bout Actual Skills but bout historical "perception" from fans.
Yea me too, I dont think Doc was THAT great that a single ring puts him ahead of MJ.

pd1dish
08-24-2011, 02:30 AM
I think the OP is a baiter and maybe a Bulls hater. Why star threads like these? Pippen is a top 5 perimeter defender of all time and is the epitome of what a point forward should be. Without Jordan IMO he'd still be a HOFer, he's one of the most gifted players to ever play the game and the perfect compliment to any superstar PG, SG, PF, C. By himself he ain't no scrub either.

In the prime of his career without MJ he lead the Bulls to a 55-27 record and finished 3rd in MVP voting while posting a monster stat line. I mean when you replace MICHAEL JORDAN with pete myers and still win 55 games. That guy is a HOFer with or without the help of Michael Jordan.

^^^all of that is 100% accurate

Lim
08-24-2011, 02:51 AM
i think its a lot closer then some of u think. put scottie on the clippers for his whole career and i bet u he doesn't even sniff the hof. just a thought

smiddy012
08-24-2011, 03:52 AM
Yeah, had MJ not been there push Pippen he likely wouldnt have been top 50 or borderline. Pippen didnt compare much to MJ (especially offensively) in the playoffs but was one of the best perimeter defenders ever (MJ the best offensive player ever - made him better). MJ drove Pippen, MJ made everyone around him better - if you watched him for years on a daily basis or talked to any expert/ex-pro they'd tell thats a key reason why hes the goat. Not to mention hes the most well rounded player ever - statistically I'm really not too sure you can complain about anything considering he shoots the 3 better later in his career (aren't any statistical arguments to be made against MJ as goat). To say he wouldn't be GOAT without Pippen is to say MJ wouldn't have ever played with a fellow top 10/15 player in the league during his prime (which is what Pippen was as the talent was so high then - lots of big men) is unrealistic. Even then MJ was not motivated by the players around him like Scottie - MJ is as type A as there has ever been the league. He also trained more than just about anyone in the league during his time. From a mental perspective he intimidated opposing players quite well, particularly during the playoffs. And to clarify MJ made Scottie - it took Scottie a few years easy to earn MJs respect/trust on/off the court let alone be considered top 15 (relatively speaking a lot of people thought Bosh was top 10/15 just before last season).

Rodman isnt a HOF w/o MJ thats for sure :) just as Pippen very likely not top 50. But MJ wasn't even selected to his varsity high school squad til Jr Year - I suppose thats the best argument vs MJ as not being goat :(

Hellcrooner
08-24-2011, 04:25 AM
Yeah, had MJ not been there push Pippen he likely wouldnt have been top 50 or borderline. Pippen didnt compare much to MJ (especially offensively) in the playoffs but was one of the best perimeter defenders ever (MJ the best offensive player ever - made him better). MJ drove Pippen, MJ made everyone around him better - if you watched him for years on a daily basis or talked to any expert/ex-pro they'd tell thats a key reason why hes the goat. Not to mention hes the most well rounded player ever - statistically I'm really not too sure you can complain about anything considering he shoots the 3 better later in his career (aren't any statistical arguments to be made against MJ as goat). To say he wouldn't be GOAT without Pippen is to say MJ wouldn't have ever played with a fellow top 10/15 player in the league during his prime (which is what Pippen was as the talent was so high then - lots of big men) is unrealistic. Even then MJ was not motivated by the players around him like Scottie - MJ is as type A as there has ever been the league. He also trained more than just about anyone in the league during his time. From a mental perspective he intimidated opposing players quite well, particularly during the playoffs. And to clarify MJ made Scottie - it took Scottie a few years easy to earn MJs respect/trust on/off the court let alone be considered top 15 (relatively speaking a lot of people thought Bosh was top 10/15 just before last season).

Rodman isnt a HOF w/o MJ thats for sure :) just as Pippen very likely not top 50. But MJ wasn't even selected to his varsity high school squad til Jr Year - I suppose thats the best argument vs MJ as not being goat :(

lol. nah he just had won 2 rings, been twice the dpoy been in a ton of all defensive teams, won some rebounding titles, been an allstar TWICE . been on the 3rd league team -------------all of t his BEFORE he was a bull

shep33
08-24-2011, 05:31 AM
Jordan helped Pippen become the player he was... however, Pippen is an all-time great. People saying Pippen didn't do anything and it was all Jordan, are completely wrong. If Pippen sucked so bad, how can he finish 3rd in MVP voting, and nearly lead the Bulls past the heavily favored (really NBA favorite to win the title that year) New York Knicks. 7 hard games... oh and he didn't have Rodman either. 2nd best player on that team was Horace Grant, averaged 15 and 11. Scottie put up 22, 9, and 6 with 3 steals per game, while shooting 49%. Guy beasted with and without Jordan. Bulls won 55 games that year.

shep33
08-24-2011, 05:32 AM
If it wasn't for Shaq, Kobe would only have 2 rings

If it wasn't for Kobe, Shaq would only have 1 ring... no Wade and he has 0

Geargo Wallace
08-24-2011, 06:53 AM
Pippen was awesome :). **** this thread.

Fnom11
08-24-2011, 01:39 PM
Pippen probably wouldn't of been all star worthy without MJ. But that's irrelevant because he had Jordan and turned out to be an amazing player with a great all around game.

avon_barksdale
08-24-2011, 02:06 PM
I truly believe that Jordan turned Pippen into a hall of famer. Without Jordan, Pippen would just be a perennial all-star with a few solid games under his belt. When Jordan retired (the second time), Pippen tried to team up with Hakeem and Barkley and couldn't help his team out at all. Then he joined the Blazers and blew a 15 point, 4th quarter lead in game 7 against the Lakers. That was easily the best choke I have seen in my life. The guy could never be the number 1 option and be successful, simultaneously.

yo man when jordan retired the2nd time scottie ws 34 yrs old

Chi~TwnHawksFan
08-24-2011, 02:25 PM
Did'nt he take the Bulls to the ECF the first time jordan retired?

Fnom11
08-24-2011, 03:56 PM
Did'nt he take the Bulls to the ECF the first time jordan retired?

Pretty sure they still had a very solid team.

MJ-BULLS
08-24-2011, 04:04 PM
Scottie Pippen would have been a number one option on any team In my opinion. When Jordan retired he carried the Bulls, he showed how great of a offensive player he was. and defensively, am sure a lot of you get the picture how good he was defensively.

Fnom11
08-24-2011, 04:11 PM
Scottie Pippen would have been a number one option on any team In my opinion. When Jordan retired he carried the Bulls, he showed how great of a offensive player he was. and defensively, am sure a lot of you get the picture how good he was defensively.

You're forgetting about how huge of a factor Jordan played in Pippen's development. Even Pippen himself stated how huge Jordan was in helping progress his game.

MJ-BULLS
08-24-2011, 04:18 PM
You're forgetting about how huge of a factor Jordan played in Pippen's development. Even Pippen himself stated how huge Jordan was in helping progress his game.

of course Jordan played a big factor in Scottie Pippen's development. he sure helped him progress faster in his development as a player. But Scottie Pippen was bound to be a great defensive player because of his athletic abilities/skills. but I get what you're trying to say.

Geargo Wallace
08-24-2011, 04:32 PM
I understand that MJ helped Pippen develop into a great player, but to say that he wouldn't have been even close to being as great as he was without him is ridiculous. Pip's legacy has been greatly reduced due to playing beside Jordan during those championship years. Pippen had such a great drive, and used it just to make it into the NBA. I'm sure he would have developed into the Pippen we know and love if he had played elsewhere. Some of you guys are acting like he's some kind of chump. Pippen is to Jordan just as much as Jordan is to Pippen.

Cal827
08-24-2011, 05:00 PM
They were interdependent of each other, both Hall of Famers but without each other, there's a good chance that they only win like 1 championship (or possibly none).

boriquaabe
08-24-2011, 05:14 PM
Pippen was a beast... you don't agree you didn't watch the games. I'm a knicks fan and I witnessed his greatness first hand.

KnicksorBust
08-24-2011, 05:50 PM
I actually think it's a great what if. Pippen was a very good but not elite scorer which makes me wonder he could handle being a #1 option and I think we can all agree there is no way he reaches the same heights defensively if he's not going 1 on 1 with the greatest scorer on the planet every day. It is interesting if he had gone to another lottery team who knows.

Bullsfan22
08-24-2011, 09:26 PM
Scottie would have been a 22-7-7 career type player on his own in my opinion. I think MJ sped up his potential but there's not much doubt in my mind he would have ended up a HOF.

You CAN'T turn a player into a H.O.F he has to have that level of play within him.

Pip was an all-around talent and a competitor himself. People are quick to bring up the fact that he practiced with MJ everyday but forget to leave out that he took the *** kicking and got better instead of withering away.

MJ sped up the process but it's clear to me that he would have gotten there soon of a later.

one of the best Point-Forwards and try naming three better on the ball wing defenders? You'd be wasting your time.

Bos_Sports4Life
08-25-2011, 06:53 PM
Scottie would have been a 22-7-7 career type player on his own in my opinion. I think MJ sped up his potential but there's not much doubt in my mind he would have ended up a HOF.

You CAN'T turn a player into a H.O.F he has to have that level of play within him.

Pip was an all-around talent and a competitor himself. People are quick to bring up the fact that he practiced with MJ everyday but forget to leave out that he took the *** kicking and got better instead of withering away.

MJ sped up the process but it's clear to me that he would have gotten there soon of a later.

one of the best Point-Forwards and try naming three better on the ball wing defenders? You'd be wasting your time.


Dude....Thank you a TON for making a very smart and intelligent post.

Ive seen SEVERAL (the majority it seems) Bulls fans disscredit Pippen, just too make Jordan look better, it's kinda sickning.

Hes WITHOUT a doubt top 50 player of all time and would have been a hof'er REGARDLESS, too credit mj for Pippen being a hof'er is not giving ANY credit too the man who gave his all night in and night out for 15+ seasons.

Tony_Starks
08-25-2011, 09:40 PM
As a person that had my heart broke in 91 when the Bulls beat my Lakers I can just say that nobody was worried about MJ. MJ was going to do what he always does. But Pippen completely was the difference, bodying Magic all the way up the court. Disrupting everything. It was like he was everywhere at once. I was like who the F is the guy?

llemon
08-25-2011, 11:00 PM
I think the OP is a baiter and maybe a Bulls hater. Why star threads like these? Pippen is a top 5 perimeter defender of all time and is the epitome of what a point forward should be. Without Jordan IMO he'd still be a HOFer, he's one of the most gifted players to ever play the game and the perfect compliment to any superstar PG, SG, PF, C. By himself he ain't no scrub either.

In the prime of his career without MJ he lead the Bulls to a 55-27 record and finished 3rd in MVP voting while posting a monster stat line. I mean when you replace MICHAEL JORDAN with pete myers and still win 55 games. That guy is a HOFer with or without the help of Michael Jordan.

Jordan wasn't replaced by Pete Myers, he was replaced by Toni Kukoc, at the top of his game.

Kukoc is actually the reason Bulls got to a game 7 in the '94 ECF, because the great leader Pippen, refused to take the court because Phil Jackson, who some consider to be the greatest NBA coach ever, called a final play in game#6 for someone other than the great leader of his team, Scottie Pippen.

Just so you know, 10 years earlier than 1994, refusal to take the court would have cost an NBA player his career.

Bos_Sports4Life
08-25-2011, 11:59 PM
Jordan wasn't replaced by Pete Myers, he was replaced by Toni Kukoc, at the top of his game.

Kukoc is actually the reason Bulls got to a game 7 in the '94 ECF, because the great leader Pippen, refused to take the court because Phil Jackson, who some consider to be the greatest NBA coach ever, called a final play in game#6 for someone other than the great leader of his team, Scottie Pippen.

Just so you know, 10 years earlier than 1994, refusal to take the court would have cost an NBA player his career.


Kukoc played 13 minutes during that game 6..he was hardly the reason chi went too a game 7, unless a shot during the final few playes counts for more..

JordansBulls
08-26-2011, 12:19 AM
Kukoc played 13 minutes during that game 6..he was hardly the reason chi went too a game 7, unless a shot during the final few playes counts for more..

Game 3 when the score was tied, Kukoc hits the shot to win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtF-DtYBi8E

Also in game 6 Pippen had 13 points not to mention he was 3rd in win shares in the playoffs on the Bulls.

llemon
08-26-2011, 12:29 AM
Game 3 when the score was tied, Kukoc hits the shot to win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtF-DtYBi8E

Also in game 6 Pippen had 13 points not to mention he was 3rd in win shares in the playoffs on the Bulls.

If I confused which game Pippen showed himself to be the crybaby nonleader of the team, I apologize.

And also shows what a smart leader Phil Jackson was. I'm amazed myself.

JasonJohnHorn
08-26-2011, 12:31 AM
The yaer Jordan retired, Pippen proved he was a HOFer. He was a legit MVP candidate, leade his team to within a basket of the NBA finals, and turned a team that everybody thought was headed to the lottery into a legit contender.

As for Jordan turning Pippen into and all-star, I would rather suggest that Pippen turned Jordan into a champion. Without Pippen encouraging Jordan to defer (along with Phil Jackson), and move the ball and trust his teammate, and not let ego define every play, Jordan would have been a 30+ scorer without a ring, just like Nique, and Gervin, and McGrady, and Iverson.

Jordan was a HOFer on his own merits. But Pippen turned Jordan into a champion (with a LOT of help from Phil Jackson).

quade36
08-26-2011, 12:42 AM
Jordan wasn't replaced by Pete Myers, he was replaced by Toni Kukoc, at the top of his game.

.

Well, this does seem like baiting. But from a statistical perspective Kukoc was not even close to the top of his game. They guy hit the game winning shot but do you realize he was only at 27% 3 point shooter that season? His career average is 33.5. He also only averaged 10.9 points a game. I guess that was the top of his game? :facepalm:

Anyways if I respond to anything past that it would be just a waste of my time as that statement alone just doesn't make sense.

llemon
08-26-2011, 12:47 AM
The yaer Jordan retired, Pippen proved he was a HOFer. He was a legit MVP candidate, leade his team to within a basket of the NBA finals, and turned a team that everybody thought was headed to the lottery into a legit contender.

As for Jordan turning Pippen into and all-star, I would rather suggest that Pippen turned Jordan into a champion. Without Pippen encouraging Jordan to defer (along with Phil Jackson), and move the ball and trust his teammate, and not let ego define every play, Jordan would have been a 30+ scorer without a ring, just like Nique, and Gervin, and McGrady, and Iverson.

Jordan was a HOFer on his own merits. But Pippen turned Jordan into a champion (with a LOT of help from Phil Jackson).

Will just disagree.

Pippen proved himself the dog on more than one occasion.

A real Center might (might) have proven himself to be as big an asset to Jordan as Pippen. As for Phil Jackson, I guess being a teammate of Walt Frazier's gave PJ some insights on how to deal with TREMENDOUS egos.

llemon
08-26-2011, 12:54 AM
Well, this does seem like baiting. But from a statistical perspective Kukoc was not even close to the top of his game. They guy hit the game winning shot but do you realize he was only at 27% 3 point shooter that season? His career average is 33.5. He also only averaged 10.9 points a game. I guess that was the top of his game? :facepalm:

Anyways if I respond to anything past that it would be just a waste of my time as that statement alone just doesn't make sense.

Baiting? I would guess PJ wouldn't agree, as he called the play for Kukoc. You think PJ knows how to coach?

And what was Toni's 3pt% in that year's playoffs?

Yes, Toni was in his prime during that playoff series. It took him the season to try and adapt to Pippen's ego, and as a rookie, he didn't see the minutes.

JordansBulls
08-26-2011, 07:39 AM
The yaer Jordan retired, Pippen proved he was a HOFer. He was a legit MVP candidate, leade his team to within a basket of the NBA finals, and turned a team that everybody thought was headed to the lottery into a legit contender.

As for Jordan turning Pippen into and all-star, I would rather suggest that Pippen turned Jordan into a champion. Without Pippen encouraging Jordan to defer (along with Phil Jackson), and move the ball and trust his teammate, and not let ego define every play, Jordan would have been a 30+ scorer without a ring, just like Nique, and Gervin, and McGrady, and Iverson.

Jordan was a HOFer on his own merits. But Pippen turned Jordan into a champion (with a LOT of help from Phil Jackson).

This is complete horse****. Pippen didn't prove crap. He never turned or led a team close to a title. He led a team to round 2. If round 2 is close to a team than Chris Paul, Vince Carter led teams close to a title as well.

Jordan was already a college champion and won olympic gold while Pippen never won anything. In fact the year the Bulls won there first title Pippen didn't even make the allstar team.

It's because Jordan was building a foundation when Pippen wasn't there
(and continued throughout Pippen's first few years).
Pippen was handed the keys to a team that won 3 straight titles in 94 and very talented teams after that.
That's like getting your college degree and finding a great job then going home to your parents to tell them,
"Hey look! I make a better salary than you ever did, my car is better and my house is bigger therefore
I'm more successful." Yeah right, idiot. Who paid for your college tuition?
Who sent you money when you were broke? Who paid for the car that you drove around your last 2 years?
Who supplemented your little internship money so you could support yourself?

This dude goes in every thread and gets Bulls fans riled up because we can't understand why a Pippen fan of all people would be throwing darts at Jordan. It's because he's not, and every time he posts he exposes himself.

KnicksorBust
08-26-2011, 11:06 AM
This is complete horse****. Pippen didn't prove crap. He never turned or led a team close to a title. He led a team to round 2. If round 2 is close to a team than Chris Paul, Vince Carter led teams close to a title as well.

Jordan was already a college champion and won olympic gold while Pippen never won anything. In fact the year the Bulls won there first title Pippen didn't even make the allstar team.

It's because Jordan was building a foundation when Pippen wasn't there
(and continued throughout Pippen's first few years).
Pippen was handed the keys to a team that won 3 straight titles in 94 and very talented teams after that.
That's like getting your college degree and finding a great job then going home to your parents to tell them,
"Hey look! I make a better salary than you ever did, my car is better and my house is bigger therefore
I'm more successful." Yeah right, idiot. Who paid for your college tuition?
Who sent you money when you were broke? Who paid for the car that you drove around your last 2 years?
Who supplemented your little internship money so you could support yourself?

This dude goes in every thread and gets Bulls fans riled up because we can't understand why a Pippen fan of all people would be throwing darts at Jordan. It's because he's not, and every time he posts he exposes himself.

:laugh: Made my day.

It's amazing how many people think the Hubert Davis play was going to send the Bulls to the Finals.

Hellcrooner
08-26-2011, 11:57 AM
This is complete horse****. Pippen didn't prove crap. He never turned or led a team close to a title. He led a team to round 2. If round 2 is close to a team than Chris Paul, Vince Carter led teams close to a title as well.

Jordan was already a college champion and won olympic gold while Pippen never won anything. In fact the year the Bulls won there first title Pippen didn't even make the allstar team.

It's because Jordan was building a foundation when Pippen wasn't there
(and continued throughout Pippen's first few years).
Pippen was handed the keys to a team that won 3 straight titles in 94 and very talented teams after that.
That's like getting your college degree and finding a great job then going home to your parents to tell them,
"Hey look! I make a better salary than you ever did, my car is better and my house is bigger therefore
I'm more successful." Yeah right, idiot. Who paid for your college tuition?
Who sent you money when you were broke? Who paid for the car that you drove around your last 2 years?
Who supplemented your little internship money so you could support yourself?

This dude goes in every thread and gets Bulls fans riled up because we can't understand why a Pippen fan of all people would be throwing darts at Jordan. It's because he's not, and every time he posts he exposes himself.

you mean jordan was a SIDEKICK to Worthy on winning an ncaa championship? :D

smiddy012
08-26-2011, 12:03 PM
This is complete horse****. Pippen didn't prove crap. He never turned or led a team close to a title. He led a team to round 2. If round 2 is close to a team than Chris Paul, Vince Carter led teams close to a title as well.

Jordan was already a college champion and won olympic gold while Pippen never won anything. In fact the year the Bulls won there first title Pippen didn't even make the allstar team.

It's because Jordan was building a foundation when Pippen wasn't there
(and continued throughout Pippen's first few years).
Pippen was handed the keys to a team that won 3 straight titles in 94 and very talented teams after that.
That's like getting your college degree and finding a great job then going home to your parents to tell them,
"Hey look! I make a better salary than you ever did, my car is better and my house is bigger therefore
I'm more successful." Yeah right, idiot. Who paid for your college tuition?
Who sent you money when you were broke? Who paid for the car that you drove around your last 2 years?
Who supplemented your little internship money so you could support yourself?

This dude goes in every thread and gets Bulls fans riled up because we can't understand why a Pippen fan of all people would be throwing darts at Jordan. It's because he's not, and every time he posts he exposes himself.

Thanks JB.

ghettosean
08-26-2011, 12:33 PM
The real question here is, with no pippen how many rings do jordan have? do anyone consider jordan the goat?.

And btw im SURE if Jordan stayed retired , pippen would have ended up winning one leading the bulls once rodman, longley and harper went on board.
This

Cool007
08-26-2011, 02:25 PM
Is this a joke thread?

Pippen is not a HOFer because of Jordan. Pippen would still be HOFer if he played with Ewing or David Robinson, or if he was playing with Chuck or whoever.

You have to have talent first of all which Pippen did. In the 90s, it was Pippen that was playing suffocating defense himself that really helped out Jordan focus on offense more instead worry about guarding best perimeter player.

If Jordan was the reason then how come BJ Armstrong, Longley, etc aren't HOFers as well???