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JordansBulls
08-22-2011, 02:36 PM
Voting for #25 has concluded and PSD's Official #25 NBA Player of all time is....

Elgin Baylor


Top 5 Voters


Elgin Baylor - 20 votes
Scottie Pippen - 16 votes
Dwyane Wade = 10 votes
Isiah Thomas = 7 votes
Bob Cousy = 7 votes
Allen Iverson = 7 votes


The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)
20. Kevin Garnett (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641975)
21. LeBron James (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511)
22. Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643161)
23. Bob Pettit (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=644031)
24. John Havlicek (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645330)
25. Elgin Baylor (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645990)

Voting will now begin for the #26 NBA Player All Time

NOTE: You can only nominate one player and that player had to be an allstar multiple times at least probably at least 3 times at a minimum. The player who has the most nomination votes will be added to the next poll. Anyone who nominates more than one player there nomination will be disregarded.


2nd NOTE: Have seen a lot of posters just vote, but not make a single comment in the thread on there choice. We need you to participate and say why you chose who you did. Basically support it. If not, then don't see why your vote should count.

With the lack of participation and just voting, we will do the voting another way now to get more participation.

These are the players that can be voted for the #26 spot.

Willis Reed
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Bob Cousy
Isiah Thomas
Dwyane Wade
Gary Payton
Patrick Ewing
Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Sam Jones
Scottie Pippen
Walt Frazier
Allen Iverson
Steve Nash
Jason Kidd
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Bob Mcadoo
Bill Walton
George Gervin
Kevin McHale
James Worthy
Reggie Miller
Elvin Hayes
Dolph Schayes
Nate Thurmond
Shawn Kemp
Alonzo Mourning
Kevin Johnson
Jerry Lucas (Newest Nomination)

JordansBulls
08-22-2011, 02:44 PM
Trying a different approach for players 26 thru 50 as it seems the amount of participation has gone down a bit after the top 10-15 were gone. Seems like too many posters are just voting in the poll and make no comment.

So I think the best strategy now is to submit your vote and then make a nomination.

I'm changing my vote from #25 and I am now going with for vote #26:

VOTE: Dwyane Wade (led Miami to it's only title in franchise history with a historic finals
Nominate: Tracy Mcgrady (one of the best primes there is out there for a wing player)

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2011, 03:04 PM
Lol @ Wade and T-Mac being above AI

Hustlenomics
08-22-2011, 03:14 PM
Lol @ Wade and T-Mac being above AI

the hate for Iverson isn't even about basketball
vote: iverson

Hellcrooner
08-22-2011, 03:14 PM
im voting barry again since he lead a POOR team to the ring and also is one of the mmost prolific scorers ever.

as for nominations i nominate Robert Parish

and leave a LIST of people that should be nominated so people can check and refresh some names in their minds :

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18990980&postcount=62

KnicksorBust
08-22-2011, 03:19 PM
Bob Cousy.

Career highlights and awards:
6× NBA champion (1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1957)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1954, 1957)
13× All-Star (1951–1963)
10× All-NBA First Team (1952–1961)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1962, 1963)
Led the leagues in assists 8 consecutive seasons.

He was the best guard on the planet for a decade.



Something you fail to realize when comparing across eras and comparing one great to another, everything must be put into perspective. If not then Cousy would be a top 10 player.



Even Swashcuff realizes that Cousy has a 10 top resume. At #25, it's time to support this legend.

Cano4prez
08-22-2011, 03:46 PM
Lol at people saying Iverson

Chacarron
08-22-2011, 04:43 PM
I'm voting for Scottie Pippen. Nominating Robert Parish.

Bruno
08-22-2011, 04:55 PM
Pippen.

-10 All defensive teams (Eight first team selections).
-7x all-star.
-7x All-NBA teams.
-NBA all-time leader in total post-season steals.
-Third all-time in career post-season defensive W-S (Behind only Wilt and Russell).
-12th all-time in total post-season points scored (more PS points than Wilt).
-6x champion. One of the most under-appreciated #2's in the history of the NBA.

His career TS% is also well above that of Baylor, Havlicek, Thomas, and Rick Barry. His career PER also holds it's own against all of those names. He also has all those names beat in career regular season WS's. I like #33 here. He has an argument as the greatest wing defender in league history.

I like the Robert Parish nomination made by Crooner.

MJ-BULLS
08-22-2011, 04:57 PM
Pippen.

Bruno
08-22-2011, 05:00 PM
Trying a different approach for players 26 thru 50 as it seems the amount of participation has gone down a bit after the top 10-15 were gone. Seems like too many posters are just voting in the poll and make no comment.

So I think the best strategy now is to submit your vote and then make a nomination.

I'm changing my vote from #25 and I am now going with for vote #26:

VOTE: Dwyane Wade (led Miami to it's only title in franchise history with a historic finals
Nominate: Tracy Mcgrady (one of the best primes there is out there for a wing player)

So you're going to count all the votes manually? That's a lot of work for you JB.

If this thread doesn't get more attention without a poll you should add them again just to save yourself the time.

23dragonzord
08-22-2011, 05:14 PM
my vote is Pippen
nominate Chris Webber

mavwar53
08-22-2011, 05:15 PM
Cousy

JordansBulls
08-22-2011, 05:37 PM
Come on guys, don't just throw a one word liner and say a player and nothing else.

For instance if you are picking Allen Iverson say because he led a team to the top seed, won league mvp and is 2nd all time in playoff ppg.

Something like that at least shows some effort.

JordansBulls
08-22-2011, 05:38 PM
So you're going to count all the votes manually? That's a lot of work for you JB.

If this thread doesn't get more attention without a poll you should add them again just to save yourself the time.

I'd rather have that then people just register phony accounts and vote or have over half the people vote in a poll but not say even a word in the thread.

AntiG
08-22-2011, 05:52 PM
Clyde Drexler. 2nd greatest SG of all time. Led a Blazers team where he was the only great player to two Finals and won one when he moved to Houston. Along with Barkley, was the best player throughout the 1992 Olympics.

Cano4prez
08-22-2011, 05:55 PM
Clyde Drexler. 2nd greatest SG of all time. Led a Blazers team where he was the only great player to two Finals and won one when he moved to Houston. Along with Barkley, was the best player throughout the 1992 Olympics.

:facepalm:

Bruno
08-22-2011, 05:59 PM
I'd rather have that then people just register phony accounts and vote or have over half the people vote in a poll but not say even a word in the thread.

Understandable but I think we've done a good job of finding the dupes and not counting their votes. Totally your call.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-22-2011, 06:06 PM
This is no fun without the poll.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2011, 06:11 PM
the hate for Iverson isn't even about basketball
vote: iverson

Yeah I've learned to relise that. And trying to stick up for him is hard just because the people who "hate" him only hate him for non basketball related issues. Or never actually watched him play.

+2 votes for AI

Bruno
08-22-2011, 06:24 PM
Yeah I've learned to relise that. And trying to stick up for him is hard just because the people who "hate" him only hate him for non basketball related issues. Or never actually watched him play.

+2 votes for AI

Example?

From what I've seen hesitation to rank Iverson anywhere close to the top 30 comes because of his inefficiency. He has a career TS% of .518 in the regular season and . 489 in the playoffs for his career.

He was excellent at playing passing lanes, but at 6'1, 175lbs he never had the defensive impact that a lot of these other players had either.

From a win-shares perspective he struggles as well. Even during his 2001 playoff run he only put out a WS/48 of .130. You won't find another regular season MVP with a TS%, or WS/48 figures as low as Iverson.

He was fun to watch, and obviously a very talented dude but as far as statistical impact his numbers just don't cut it. Many have him trumped in rings, accolades, and statistical dominance.

JordansBulls
08-22-2011, 06:42 PM
Clyde Drexler. 2nd greatest SG of all time. Led a Blazers team where he was the only great player to two Finals and won one when he moved to Houston. Along with Barkley, was the best player throughout the 1992 Olympics.

I love Drexler but come on man.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=sheridan_chris&id=3002943




"The other thing is that those guys were just legends. They had Magic, Michael and Larry, and Charles, I think in the Olympics kind of became like a legend. He was the second-best player on that team. Michael was first and Scottie [Pippen] was third.

Swashcuff
08-22-2011, 06:44 PM
Vote: Dwyane Wade

7x NBA All-Star
2x All-NBA First Team
3 All-NBA Second Team
1x All-NBA Third Team
3x All-NBA Defensive Second Team
2010 All-Star Game MVP
2006 NBA Finals MVP
9th All Time in PPG average - 25.43

Nominate: Artis Gilmore

5x All-ABA 1st Team
1x NBA All-Defense 2nd Team
6xNBA All-Star

^ NBA Career may not seem very stellar as compared to the likes of Dwight but if we include his ABA

ABA MVP 1972
ABA Champion 1975
ABA Playoff MVP 19754x ABA All-Defense 1st TeamABA All-Star Game MVP 1974
5xABA All-StarABA Rookie of the Year 1972

Also regarded as the most efficient volume scorer (in terms of TS%) in the history of the NBA.

Swashcuff
08-22-2011, 06:46 PM
Clyde Drexler. 2nd greatest SG of all time. Led a Blazers team where he was the only great player to two Finals and won one when he moved to Houston. Along with Barkley, was the best player throughout the 1992 Olympics.

Really?

What's your take on West and Kobe?

Swashcuff
08-22-2011, 07:06 PM
Understandable but I think we've done a good job of finding the dupes and not counting their votes. Totally your call.

I think JB's way is actually better but our problem here on PSD is that our best posters aren't consistently taking part in these threads. We need guys like Hawkeye, Chronz, Avenged, Tredigs, patsSOXknicks, kozelkid, yourself, Stebo, Kashmir13579, Lakermania, hugepatsfan, Hellcrooner, Mile High Champ, DenButsu, JB, Khalifa21, KnicksorBust, ManRam, NYKalltheway, llemon, roshan3ai, Sixerlover and everyone else who I may be forgetting at this time to take part.

It will also be important to represent as much fan bases as possible as well.

If we can have at least 2/3s of these guys take part in each these threads I think we'll have some real informed debates and our lists though may be a bit different may have some solid reasoning behind it.

DR_1
08-22-2011, 07:15 PM
Vote is for Cousy; he defined the PG position.

MacFitz92
08-22-2011, 07:20 PM
I'll take Jason Kidd.

He's everything you'd want from a PG: Stellar defense, great handles, great passer, great size, great rebounder, etc... Only thing you can knock him for is his shooting ability, which isn't really a necessity in the right situation. He made the Nets relevant for a long time, which is something very hard to do as a PG. I feel like if he would've had the opportunity to play with a premiere big, he'd be known as arguably the best PG of all time.

He's got the career accolades as well: NBA Champion, 10x All Star, 2nd in Assists, 3rd in steals, 3rd in 3 pointers, etc.

He's had a long, successful career, and defines what a PG should be.

MacFitz92
08-22-2011, 07:22 PM
I nominate Adrian Dantley...

Byronicle
08-22-2011, 07:23 PM
jason kidd

triple double, great floor general and finally got himself a championship

pd7631
08-22-2011, 07:34 PM
AI


NBA MVP (shortest player ever to win it)
Rookie of the Year
11x All Star
4x Scoring Champ
3x 1st Team All NBA
3x 2nd Team All NBA
1x 3rd Team All NBA

2nd All Time in Playoff Scoring Average (MJ #1)

One of only 2 guys in Playoff history to drop 50+ points twice in the same series (MJ being the other)

Most consecutive seasons leading the league in steals

One of 4 players to lead the league in steals 3 times

Most steals in a Playoff game

Most consecutive 40+ point games as a rookie

One of only 2 players to lead the league in steals and scoring...done twice (MJ being the other, did it 3 times)

Carried the 2001 76ers on his back to the Finals

NYKalltheway
08-22-2011, 07:39 PM
Elvin Hayes... first four years in NBA averaged 27 points and 16 rebounds

All star 12 years in a row
4 all NBA first
3 all NBA second
2 all NBA defensive second
1 NBA championship (best player on his team as well)
3 times leader in Defensive Win Shares (I don't hold this stat at high regards but some who value stats have overlooked this)
#9 of all time in Defensive Win Shares
#14 of all time in Defensive Rebounds (and once led the league in advanced stats Defensive Rebounds)
#15 Defense Rating of all time (don't value this high either, but it is what it is)
#24 of all time in Blocks
Led the league in scoring once and finished top 3 twice, while being #5 on three other occasions.
#8 in NBA points scored and #10 if you count ABA stats as well...

Nominate Alex English and Adrian Dantley, two of the best scorers ever and two of the few players not playing in the post to have scored over 50% in FG

Bruno
08-22-2011, 07:40 PM
I think JB's way is actually better but our problem here on PSD is that our best posters aren't consistently taking part in these threads. We need guys like Hawkeye, Chronz, Avenged, Tredigs, patsSOXknicks, kozelkid, yourself, Stebo, Kashmir13579, Lakermania, hugepatsfan, Hellcrooner, Mile High Champ, DenButsu, JB, Khalifa21, KnicksorBust, ManRam, NYKalltheway, llemon, roshan3ai, Sixerlover and everyone else who I may be forgetting at this time to take part.

It will also be important to represent as much fan bases as possible as well.

If we can have at least 2/3s of these guys take part in each these threads I think we'll have some real informed debates and our lists though may be a bit different may have some solid reasoning behind it.

I'd like to see everyone voting and posting too.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2011, 07:44 PM
Example?

From what I've seen hesitation to rank Iverson anywhere close to the top 30 comes because of his inefficiency. He has a career TS% of .518 in the regular season and . 489 in the playoffs for his career.

He was excellent at playing passing lanes, but at 6'1, 175lbs he never had the defensive impact that a lot of these other players had either.

From a win-shares perspective he struggles as well. Even during his 2001 playoff run he only put out a WS/48 of .130. You won't find another regular season MVP with a TS%, or WS/48 figures as low as Iverson.

He was fun to watch, and obviously a very talented dude but as far as statistical impact his numbers just don't cut it. Many have him trumped in rings, accolades, and statistical dominance.

NBA MVP (shortest player ever to win it)
Rookie of the Year
11x All Star
4x Scoring Champ
3x 1st Team All NBA
3x 2nd Team All NBA
1x 3rd Team All NBA
2x All-Star Game MVP

Yeah so cleary 26 should be T-Mac or Wade :facepalm:

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2011, 07:46 PM
AI


NBA MVP (shortest player ever to win it)
Rookie of the Year
11x All Star
4x Scoring Champ
3x 1st Team All NBA
3x 2nd Team All NBA
1x 3rd Team All NBA

2nd All Time in Playoff Scoring Average (MJ #1)

One of only 2 guys in Playoff history to drop 50+ points twice in the same series (MJ being the other)

Most consecutive seasons leading the league in steals

One of 4 players to lead the league in steals 3 times

Most steals in a Playoff game

Most consecutive 40+ point games as a rookie

One of only 2 players to lead the league in steals and scoring...done twice (MJ being the other, did it 3 times)

Carried the 2001 76ers on his back to the Finals

IDK why we even bother man, AI will never get the respect he deserves because the few negative things, he did in his career will always outweigh the positive. the people who don't respect him are the ones who didn't watch him play. and don't realise the impact the man had. It's too bad honestly, not only for us, but for them as well. I try hard not to defend him in these forums, because it's similar to arguing with a brick wall.

NYKalltheway
08-22-2011, 07:57 PM
Allen Iverson was immensely talented and was imo the most talented guard after Michael Jordan retired. Results on the court? Not helping me with my previous comment ;)
The sad truth about Iverson. Same sad story went for guys like Dominique Wilkins, Patrick Ewing, George Gervin and many others.
Iverson based on talent alone could be top 20. But ranking NBA legends isn't just about talent. Shaq was probably the least talented big guy around, but he's arguably a top 3 center of all time due to his dominant style of play. We're not talking about who can take whom on a 1on1. AI would be top 5 if that was the case ;)

Cano4prez
08-22-2011, 07:59 PM
NBA MVP (shortest player ever to win it)
Rookie of the Year
11x All Star
4x Scoring Champ
3x 1st Team All NBA
3x 2nd Team All NBA
1x 3rd Team All NBA
2x All-Star Game MVP

Yeah so cleary 26 should be T-Mac or Wade :facepalm:

Wade should be higher than AI, yeah and it shouldn't be debatable

NYKalltheway
08-22-2011, 08:03 PM
also want to nominate Paul Arizin.

People also need to consider that with no 3pt line/shots, the game was played closer to the basket and the surrounding area was stacked with defenders. Hence why you see so many legendary players having 40-43% FG.
In today's game, with the zone defense being illegal and the lanes cleared with the defensive foul "box" under the basket, it's much easier to score with all the lay ups/dunks which means better FG% stats for the more athletic guys.

PS.

How were all stars decided early on in NBA's history? For the last few years it's a global popularity contest with the Chinese voting for Yao and other people having their favorite guys etc. I think we're giving all-stars too much credit really.

HoopsDrive
08-22-2011, 08:19 PM
Vote: Dwyane Wade
Nomination: Robert Parish

Lakersfan2483
08-22-2011, 08:25 PM
I am going with Rick Barry at no. 26. He led a team to a championship, finals mvp, former scoring champ, scored 25,279 pts for his career and grabbed 6,863 rebs, multiple all star appearances, 24.8ppg, 6rpg, 5apg for his career. One of the better wing players to ever play the game.

I nominate Bob Mcadoo and Paul Pierce.

Bruno
08-22-2011, 08:29 PM
NBA MVP (shortest player ever to win it)
Rookie of the Year
11x All Star
4x Scoring Champ
3x 1st Team All NBA
3x 2nd Team All NBA
1x 3rd Team All NBA
2x All-Star Game MVP

Yeah so cleary 26 should be T-Mac or Wade :facepalm:

I didn't place my vote for T-Mac or Wade. I voted for Pippen, six time champion, all-time wing leader in defensive win-shares for the NBA playoffs, in it's history. He also leads the history of the post season with total steals. He has an argument as the greatest wing defender in the NBA. While not as prolific a scorer as Iverson, he was far more efficient. Iversons career TS% in the playoffs is below .500. Do you care to acknowledge that?

Do you acknowledge that Wade had the most dominant NBA finals performance in league history in 2006?

If you spent more time presenting the numbers, and less time issuing facepalms you'd be able to issue a stronger case for Iverson.

Bruno
08-22-2011, 08:30 PM
also want to nominate Paul Arizin.

People also need to consider that with no 3pt line/shots, the game was played closer to the basket and the surrounding area was stacked with defenders. Hence why you see so many legendary players having 40-43% FG.
In today's game, with the zone defense being illegal and the lanes cleared with the defensive foul "box" under the basket, it's much easier to score with all the lay ups/dunks which means better FG% stats for the more athletic guys.


Zone defense has been legal in the NBA for years. Effective box-zones are in part a reason why the post Jordan era resulted in some of the lowest points per 100 possession numbers in league history.

Lakersfan2483
08-22-2011, 08:32 PM
Clyde Drexler. 2nd greatest SG of all time. Led a Blazers team where he was the only great player to two Finals and won one when he moved to Houston. Along with Barkley, was the best player throughout the 1992 Olympics.

Not even close. He's not better than Bryant or Jerry West. You have nothing to support that claim and even if you come up with something, it will be shut down right away as Clyde didn't achieve/accomplish what Bryant and West have accomplished over their careers. Drexler was a great player, but not on the same level as Kobe and West.

In response to that comment about Clyde going to the finals twice with Portland, yes he did lead them as the best player, and was the no. 1 option, however he played on one of the most talented teams in the 90's. Buck Williams, Terry Porter, Cliff Robinson were all all star players, not to mention Kersey and Danny Ainge along with a strong bench. The Blazers were very talented.

Bruno
08-22-2011, 08:35 PM
Not even close. He's not better than Bryant or Jerry West. You have nothing to support that claim and even if you come up with something, it will be shut down right away as Clyde didn't achieve/accomplish what Bryant and West have accomplished.

x2. Drexler is 5th at best behind Jordan, Bryant, West and Wade.

pd7631
08-22-2011, 08:41 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-GreatestSGs&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1

Cavs_Fan24
08-22-2011, 08:44 PM
Vote: Scottie Pippen
Why: without him the bulls don't have 6 championships

Swashcuff
08-22-2011, 08:59 PM
x2. Drexler is 5th at best behind Jordan, Bryant, West and Wade.

x3 I'd really be interested in reading his reasoning for Drexler at #2.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-GreatestSGs&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1

Good post.

MTar786
08-22-2011, 09:00 PM
vote: kidd
nom: tmac

MTar786
08-22-2011, 09:02 PM
x3 I'd really be interested in reading his reasoning for Drexler at #2.



Good post.

id take AI at #5 all time if you count him as a sg

ATX
08-22-2011, 09:29 PM
Well I vote for D Wade, and I haven't been commenting because I can't stand all the bickering. I would rather just vote in the poll, than have to deal with all the immature criticism that follows an opinion. If I say Wade and I am, I will be called a homer, an idiot for not saying Iverson or whoever, and hear the Heat are a bunch of (Add tired insults here), and on and on. So anyway...

Wade

7x All Star
1x Finals MVP and NBA Champ (One of, if not the best finals performance of all time)
6x All NBA
3x All NBA Defensive
1x NBA scoring champ

Amazing stat lines across the board, and imo one of the most exciting players I've ever had the pleasure of witnessing. He's still got a few more elite years ahead of him, and I believe he'll finish his career as a top 25 player of all time, especially if he wins a couple more rings.

Ebbs
08-22-2011, 10:00 PM
I'll vote Allen Iverson. Was tough between him Wade, Kidd, and Nash for me. Iverson started his career with a bang and made a sad philly squad relevent. Taking the 6ers to the finals was nothing short of miraculous.

Nominate Chris paul I'll be different though him or McGrady would not dissapoint.

bootsy
08-22-2011, 10:13 PM
Vote: Isiah Thomas.

Can't believe he is still on the board.

Ebbs
08-22-2011, 10:23 PM
Magic
Oscar

Nash/Kidd/Stockton

Payton/Isiah

Frazier/Paul/Deron

off the top of my head (/) *in some order. just sorted in tiers

NBAfan4life
08-22-2011, 10:58 PM
I'm voting Pippen. His resume speaks for itself. Not to mention his outstanding D.

Swashcuff
08-22-2011, 11:02 PM
Magic
Oscar

Nash/Kidd/Stockton

Payton/Isiah

Frazier/Paul/Deron

off the top of my head (/) *in some order. just sorted in tiers

Honestly there are legit arguments for Frazier, Nash, Kidd, Stockton, Payton, Cousy and Isiah all being on or around the same tier IMO.
Paul from a standpoint of sheer peak also has a solid case but due to his lack of longevity I think it's a bit unfair to put him on the 2nd tier with the others.

LAKERMANIA
08-22-2011, 11:43 PM
Bob Cousy

Nominate Robert Parish

Chronz
08-23-2011, 12:55 AM
I need the polls damnit, I want to vote for either Barry or Pippen, depending on which one needs the vote.

tredigs
08-23-2011, 12:59 AM
^Take the Batman. I'm taking Rick Barry here.

Lakerfrk
08-23-2011, 01:08 AM
The fact that Bob Cousy still hasn't been voted is ridiculous.. As a Laker fan, I can still see the greatness of Cous... He was the top guard for a decade, and belongs in the top 20 ever.. but 26th should be okay..

VOTE: Bob Cousy

Raps18-19 Champ
08-23-2011, 01:22 AM
I think JB's way is actually better but our problem here on PSD is that our best posters aren't consistently taking part in these threads. We need guys like Hawkeye, Chronz, Avenged, Tredigs, patsSOXknicks, kozelkid, yourself, Stebo, Kashmir13579, Lakermania, hugepatsfan, Hellcrooner, Mile High Champ, DenButsu, JB, Khalifa21, KnicksorBust, ManRam, NYKalltheway, llemon, roshan3ai, Sixerlover and everyone else who I may be forgetting at this time to take part.

It will also be important to represent as much fan bases as possible as well.

If we can have at least 2/3s of these guys take part in each these threads I think we'll have some real informed debates and our lists though may be a bit different may have some solid reasoning behind it.

Why am I not on that list?

Chronz
08-23-2011, 01:24 AM
Your on my list Champ

Sadds The Gr8
08-23-2011, 01:26 AM
I think JB's way is actually better but our problem here on PSD is that our best posters aren't consistently taking part in these threads. We need guys like Saddler The Gr8, Hawkeye, Chronz, Avenged, Tredigs, patsSOXknicks, kozelkid, yourself, Stebo, Kashmir13579, Lakermania, hugepatsfan, Hellcrooner, Mile High Champ, DenButsu, JB, Khalifa21, KnicksorBust, ManRam, NYKalltheway, llemon, roshan3ai, Sixerlover and everyone else who I may be forgetting at this time to take part.

It will also be important to represent as much fan bases as possible as well.

If we can have at least 2/3s of these guys take part in each these threads I think we'll have some real informed debates and our lists though may be a bit different may have some solid reasoning behind it.
fixed.

LakersIn5
08-23-2011, 01:30 AM
Allen Iverson because he led a team to the top seed, won league mvp and is 2nd all time in playoff ppg. plus he led a sucky team to the finals and because people hate him for his attitude but its all about talent and basketball not good manners and right conduct

KingPosey
08-23-2011, 02:04 AM
Still goin Mitch Richmond.

Venomous88
08-23-2011, 02:34 AM
Dwyane Wade (2 finals appearances, Finals MVP, scoring champ, avg 25+/5+/5+ through 8 seasons)

Isiah Thomas (2 time champion, one of the best PGs in the league)

NYKalltheway
08-23-2011, 06:30 AM
Zone defense has been legal in the NBA for years. Effective box-zones are in part a reason why the post Jordan era resulted in some of the lowest points per 100 possession numbers in league history.

I watch basketball in every corner of the earth. NBA does not have a legit zone defense. The REAL zone defense is still illegal in the NBA. It was indeed illegal officially for a long time, but it still is. Zone defense means there's a guy under the basket and there's no 3 or 5 defensive seconds violation.
People say Howard's stats would skyrocket if it was implemented when in fact most players would score less points and have lower FG%... I don't see why this is an issue when it's 4-5 guys who are favored over guards=-forwards who will get to the driving lane anyway if they're as good as they are made to be.

NYKalltheway
08-23-2011, 06:42 AM
If we're ranking SG of all time (excluding guys from 50s sorry ;p) here's my "cavalier" approach.

1) Michael Jordan
2) Jerry West
3) Clyde Drexler
4) George Gervin
5) Kobe Bryant

feel free to bash. John Havlicek was mostly a SF. If we count him as SG then he becomes the #2 SG. Earl Monroe, Pete Maravich and Joe Dumars complete the top 8 then you can put guys like Wade, Hal Greer and Sam Jones in the question.

EDIT:
http://blog.chron.com/jeromesolomon/2008/03/debate-the-best-shooting-guards-in-nba-history/

This guy is with me... he has Drexler over Kobe and Gervin one spot behind Kobe. I say Gervin is the prototype version that's why I rank him higher than Kobe. So please come up with something else than "it's just you saying these stuff" ;)
It's from 2008. Don't think too much has changed since then if we're comparing players on their own. Championships are won by teams and hopefully people realize that Kobe wouldn't win without Pau and the rest of the crew just like Thomas couldn't win without Dumars, Laimbeer etc, Jordan wouldn't win without Pippen etc

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 09:12 AM
If we're ranking SG of all time (excluding guys from 50s sorry ;p) here's my "cavalier" approach.

1) Michael Jordan
2) Jerry West
3) Clyde Drexler
4) George Gervin
5) Kobe Bryant

feel free to bash. John Havlicek was mostly a SF. If we count him as SG then he becomes the #2 SG. Earl Monroe, Pete Maravich and Joe Dumars complete the top 8 then you can put guys like Wade, Hal Greer and Sam Jones in the question.

EDIT:
http://blog.chron.com/jeromesolomon/2008/03/debate-the-best-shooting-guards-in-nba-history/

This guy is with me... he has Drexler over Kobe and Gervin one spot behind Kobe. I say Gervin is the prototype version that's why I rank him higher than Kobe. So please come up with something else than "it's just you saying these stuff" ;)
It's from 2008. Don't think too much has changed since then if we're comparing players on their own. Championships are won by teams and hopefully people realize that Kobe wouldn't win without Pau and the rest of the crew just like Thomas couldn't win without Dumars, Laimbeer etc, Jordan wouldn't win without Pippen etc

Are you sure you posted the right link?


2. Kobe Bryant

3. Jerry West

4. Allen Iverson

5. George Gervin

6. Clyde Drexler

7. Reggie Miller

8. Pete Maravich

9. Earl Monroe

10. Joe Dumars

Because that's what I saw.

If you ask me he's totally against you.

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 09:14 AM
Why am I not on that list?


Your on my list Champ

We all know Chronz's list is better than mine. So :D

mfb_lt1birdman
08-23-2011, 09:36 AM
Never liked the guy but Pippen gets my vote. In the discussion for best perimeter defender ever, one of the best 2nd options ever. Instrumental in 6 titles. He gets kind of lost in Jordan's huge shadow but he was a hell of a player.

JordansBulls
08-23-2011, 11:22 AM
If we're ranking SG of all time (excluding guys from 50s sorry ;p) here's my "cavalier" approach.

1) Michael Jordan
2) Jerry West
3) Clyde Drexler
4) George Gervin
5) Kobe Bryant



2 thru 5 is soo jacked up that I honestly believe that you are just pulling our leg here.

NYKalltheway
08-23-2011, 12:26 PM
Are you sure you posted the right link?



Because that's what I saw.

If you ask me he's totally against you.


Let me grade you:

Attention awareness = F
Comprehension = D-
Conclusion = F

The article is commenting on that particular list claiming it's wrong.


Things like this are typically put together to generate controversy, but this wasn’t a list compiled by one person, this was voted on by 20 of ESPN’s basketball “experts.”

Yes, this is subjective and is supposed to be debatable, but let me break down some of the voting that should have been excluded.

The two Jackson boys (Mark and Scoop) didn’t have Drexler in their top 10, so their votes should have been wiped out.

Whomever had Dywane Wade, Vince Carter or Manu Ginobili in their top 10 should have been disqualified from the voting as well.

Chris Palmer of ESPN The Magazine had Iverson at No. 3. Uh, I love The Answer, he might be the best little man in the history of the game, but that’s crazy.

My top 10: Jordan, West, Drexler, Bryant, Gervin, Monroe, Maravich, Dumars, Iverson (doesn’t he belong on the point guard list?) and Sam Jones.

:)

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 12:33 PM
Let me grade you:

Attention awareness = F
Comprehension = D-
Conclusion = F

The article is commenting on that particular list claiming it's wrong.



:)

Thanks for such a wonderful grade. I misread an article and I get and F thanks. :up:

I should have graded you on all the garbage you quoted relative to Willis Reed in our earlier discussion right? Smh.

Either way any man who thinks Allen Iverson belongs on the PG list shouldn't even be taken seriously, same way someone who thinks Kobe is not a top 20 player shouldn't.

Hellcrooner
08-23-2011, 12:41 PM
i consider drexler a SF.

1 Jordan
2 West
3 Bryant
4 D Wade
5 Dantley
6 Gervin
7 E Monroe
8 Maravich
9 J Wilkes
10 Walter Davis
11 Ray Allen
12 David Thompson
13 Alex Enlgish
14 Reggie Miller
15 R Blakcman
16 Joe Dumars
17 Byron Scott
18 Fred Brown
19 T-Mac ( injuries)
20 V Carter


I consider Iverson a pg , if you were wondering.....( not that i would have chosen him over anyone on the list tough)

NYKalltheway
08-23-2011, 12:50 PM
Drexler a SF and Dantley (and English) a SG? Weird :D

Hellcrooner
08-23-2011, 01:44 PM
Drexler a SF and Dantley (and English) a SG? Weird :D

English played Sg to Vandewhege and Natt playing Sf
Drexler played sometimes Sf and sometimes Sg deppending who was on roster.
Dantley swinged betwwen the two positions all his career, and even in wiki it stats so F/G http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Dantley

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-23-2011, 02:56 PM
I didn't place my vote for T-Mac or Wade. I voted for Pippen, six time champion, all-time wing leader in defensive win-shares for the NBA playoffs, in it's history. He also leads the history of the post season with total steals. He has an argument as the greatest wing defender in the NBA. While not as prolific a scorer as Iverson, he was far more efficient. Iversons career TS% in the playoffs is below .500. Do you care to acknowledge that?

Do you acknowledge that Wade had the most dominant NBA finals performance in league history in 2006?

If you spent more time presenting the numbers, and less time issuing facepalms you'd be able to issue a stronger case for Iverson.

you wouldn't listen anyways. I've posted the numbers, and you still think otherwise your entitled to your opinion and im not hatin, just disagreeing.

The dude who opened the thread said TMac and Wade are above AI.

Do you acknowlege that Iverson had some of the most dominant seasons in league history?

Cano4prez
08-23-2011, 03:18 PM
you wouldn't listen anyways. I've posted the numbers, and you still think otherwise your entitled to your opinion and im not hatin, just disagreeing.

The dude who opened the thread said TMac and Wade are above AI.

Do you acknowlege that Iverson had some of the most dominant seasons in league history?

wat

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html

Not sure if troll or pretentious fanboy

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 03:36 PM
wat

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html

Not sure if troll or pretentious fanboy

OK I've stayed out of the A.I. debate long enough....

For Iverson's size the kinds of things he was able to accomplish was astronomical. I would certainly say for his size he was dominating. Night in night out he was the lone offensive threats on many of his Philly teams and yet still though he didn't do it in an efficient manner he was able to will his team to victory time after time.

As for you laughing at his career, could you name 3 finals teams with a worst supporting cast of players than the 00-01 76ers?

I'll give you a start with the 07 Cavs (LeBron still had more offensive help than A.I.)..... Can you name 2 more?

Hellcrooner
08-23-2011, 05:10 PM
OK I've stayed out of the A.I. debate long enough....

For Iverson's size the kinds of things he was able to accomplish was astronomical. I would certainly say for his size he was dominating. Night in night out he was the lone offensive threats on many of his Philly teams and yet still though he didn't do it in an efficient manner he was able to will his team to victory time after time.

As for you laughing at his career, could you name 3 finals teams with a worst supporting cast of players than the 00-01 76ers?

I'll give you a start with the 07 Cavs (LeBron still had more offensive help than A.I.)..... Can you name 2 more?

ill think of that later, but ill surely find it ( starting with 94 rockets).

but i dare you to find me 3 finalists that were a BETTER deffenisve suportive cast than those 76ers
the 89 and 90 pistons are just ONE since they are the same roster

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 05:12 PM
ill think of that later, but ill surely find it ( starting with 94 rockets).

but i dare you to find me 3 finalists that were a BETTER deffenisve suportive cast than those 76ers
the 89 and 90 pistons are just ONE since they are the same roster

When you say finalists you mean also in losing efforts right? or overall on a whole?

Cano4prez
08-23-2011, 05:43 PM
OK I've stayed out of the A.I. debate long enough....

For Iverson's size the kinds of things he was able to accomplish was astronomical. I would certainly say for his size he was dominating. Night in night out he was the lone offensive threats on many of his Philly teams and yet still though he didn't do it in an efficient manner he was able to will his team to victory time after time.

As for you laughing at his career, could you name 3 finals teams with a worst supporting cast of players than the 00-01 76ers?

I'll give you a start with the 07 Cavs (LeBron still had more offensive help than A.I.)..... Can you name 2 more?


There is absolutely no way you can justify Iverson had some of the most domination seasons ever, sorry. I can't name 3 teams off the top of my head I will look it up but the 07 Cavs were worse for sure. LeBron also had a season better than anything Iverson has ever had

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 05:56 PM
There is absolutely no way you can justify Iverson had some of the most domination seasons ever, sorry. I can't name 3 teams off the top of my head I will look it up but the 07 Cavs were worse for sure. LeBron also had a season better than anything Iverson has ever had

Name another player his size who was able to lead such a cast of players any further... I don't really think you need to look that up. For his size he absolutely dominated. He wasn't a force league wide by any means but no other player A.I.'s size was able to do the kinds of things he did on the basketball court.

SteBO
08-23-2011, 06:12 PM
Name another player his size who was able to lead such a cast of players any further... I don't really think you need to look that up. For his size he absolutely dominated. He wasn't a force league wide by any means but no other player A.I.'s size was able to do the kinds of things he did on the basketball court.
Completely agree. I don't know why some people think that AI's supporting cast on that Sixers team that went to the Finals was good. AI carried that team on his back.

MacFitz92
08-23-2011, 06:17 PM
Allen Iverson was a warrior. Don't think tweener/combo guard type players are the most effective in the grand scheme of things, but Iverson arguably had the best handles the game has ever seen, and his scoring ability was up there with the best.

Da Knicks
08-23-2011, 06:36 PM
I will vote Frazier because in my mind he had one the best game 7 ever and really carried the knicks with Reed hurt. He also had an all around game that paved the way for many of the pg today. Pippen is my next choice since he had an all around game that complimented Jordan to perfection.

Hellcrooner
08-23-2011, 06:40 PM
Name another player his size who was able to lead such a cast of players any further... I don't really think you need to look that up. For his size he absolutely dominated. He wasn't a force league wide by any means but no other player A.I.'s size was able to do the kinds of things he did on the basketball court.

because one more inch means SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Much.

KnicksorBust
08-23-2011, 06:55 PM
Name another player his size who was able to lead such a cast of players any further... I don't really think you need to look that up. For his size he absolutely dominated. He wasn't a force league wide by any means but no other player A.I.'s size was able to do the kinds of things he did on the basketball court.

So if two players accomplish the same thing we should give more credit to the shorter guy because it must have been harder for him? I don't think size should have any effect whatsoever on how we judge credentials.

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 07:13 PM
So if two players accomplish the same thing we should give more credit to the shorter guy because it must have been harder for him? I don't think size should have any effect whatsoever on how we judge credentials.

Isn't chuck always given credit for being such a great PF (especially in the rebounding department) for his height?

However by no means did I allude to anything of the sort, but when you have a play 6'0 165 going at it against players who are night in and night out bigger than he is and while not doing it in the prettiest of ways (statistically speaking) is still getting the job done you make mention of it.

It's WAY tougher for a smaller player to dominate a bigger player than it is for a bigger player to dominate smaller or his own height.

The vast majority of the time when we make comparisons of who'd win a game of one on one we choose the bigger guy (where applicable) because of height. So why shouldn't a player who is smaller than most be recognized for accomplishing what many greats who were much bigger than he was couldn't?

I'll tell you this about height/size with basketball however. If a 7'0 guys averaged 10 rebounds per game he's an average rebounding but let a 6'4 guy do the same everyone will be raving of how good a rebounder is he is for his size. There is a reason why Magic is a one of a kind and Steve Nash isn't.

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 07:37 PM
because one more inch means SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Much.

One inch?

Isiah had Dumars, James Edwards, Mark Aguirre, Bill Laimbeer, Dennis Rodman among others. Allen Iverson had Tyrone Hill, George Lynch, Aaron McKie, Dikembe Mutombo and Eric Snow.

Not one of those players average more than 12 points a game. Sure Isiah and A.I. had similar supporting casts right.

KnicksorBust
08-23-2011, 07:54 PM
Isn't chuck always given credit for being such a great PF (especially in the rebounding department) for his height?


Of course you can give players like Iverson and Barkley credit for accomplishing things beyond their stature however it shouldn't enhance their legacy respective to their peers.


However by no means did I allude to anything of the sort, but when you have a play 6'0 165 going at it against players who are night in and night out bigger than he is and while not doing it in the prettiest of ways (statistically speaking) is still getting the job done you make mention of it.

It's WAY tougher for a smaller player to dominate a bigger player than it is for a bigger player to dominate smaller or his own height.

The vast majority of the time when we make comparisons of who'd win a game of one on one we choose the bigger guy (where applicable) because of height. So why shouldn't a player who is smaller than most be recognized for accomplishing what many greats who were much bigger than he was couldn't?

I'll tell you this about height/size with basketball however. If a 7'0 guys averaged 10 rebounds per game he's an average rebounding but let a 6'4 guy do the same everyone will be raving of how good a rebounder is he is for his size. There is a reason why Magic is a one of a kind and Steve Nash isn't.

Of course you did and you did it again in this post. Which is fine you are entitled to that opinion, I just disagree.

Bruno
08-23-2011, 09:47 PM
I watch basketball in every corner of the earth. NBA does not have a legit zone defense. The REAL zone defense is still illegal in the NBA. It was indeed illegal officially for a long time, but it still is. Zone defense means there's a guy under the basket and there's no 3 or 5 defensive seconds violation.
People say Howard's stats would skyrocket if it was implemented when in fact most players would score less points and have lower FG%... I don't see why this is an issue when it's 4-5 guys who are favored over guards=-forwards who will get to the driving lane anyway if they're as good as they are made to be.

You can choose to define a "real zone" as you will. The NBA has legalized the zone defense since 2001-2002. Championship teams including the Celtics have use zone with much effectiveness.


2 thru 5 is soo jacked up that I honestly believe that you are just pulling our leg here.

That's what I thought too. The article he presented to support his point was from 2008.

3 MVP's and two championships later, opinions should change.


you wouldn't listen anyways. I've posted the numbers, and you still think otherwise your entitled to your opinion and im not hatin, just disagreeing.

The dude who opened the thread said TMac and Wade are above AI.

Do you acknowlege that Iverson had some of the most dominant seasons in league history?

By what measure are you determining "dominance"? Iversons best individual regular season came in 2006. His numbers were prolific in Iverson type fashion, but unlike most of his other regular seasons his efficiency was good. His TS% was above .54 while averaging 33.0 ppg. Relative to pace per 100 possessions, this goes down as one of the greatest scoring campaigns in league history. Unfortunately for Iverson, the 76ers finished with a losing record and didn't make the playoffs. Again, the argument against Iverson isn't that he didn't score a lot. You refuse to acknowledge his FG%, or his TS%. You refuse to have a discussion regarding his efficiency. Why?

I know the OP presented an opinion in favor or Wade or T-Mac. I did not. So why then issue me the facepalm on a point that was not my own?

I acknowledge that Iverson had several scoring campaigns that rank up there with the greats when adjusted for pace.

You haven't answered my question regarding Wades 2006 Finals performance.

I read what you wrote, you didn't present any numbers. You presented accolades, as seen below:


NBA MVP (shortest player ever to win it)
Rookie of the Year
11x All Star
4x Scoring Champ
3x 1st Team All NBA
3x 2nd Team All NBA
1x 3rd Team All NBA
2x All-Star Game MVP

Yeah so cleary 26 should be T-Mac or Wade :facepalm:


If we're ranking SG of all time (excluding guys from 50s sorry ;p) here's my "cavalier" approach.

1) Michael Jordan
2) Jerry West
3) Clyde Drexler
4) George Gervin
5) Kobe Bryant

feel free to bash. John Havlicek was mostly a SF. If we count him as SG then he becomes the #2 SG. Earl Monroe, Pete Maravich and Joe Dumars complete the top 8 then you can put guys like Wade, Hal Greer and Sam Jones in the question.

EDIT:
http://blog.chron.com/jeromesolomon/2008/03/debate-the-best-shooting-guards-in-nba-history/

This guy is with me... he has Drexler over Kobe and Gervin one spot behind Kobe. I say Gervin is the prototype version that's why I rank him higher than Kobe. So please come up with something else than "it's just you saying these stuff" ;)
It's from 2008. Don't think too much has changed since then if we're comparing players on their own. Championships are won by teams and hopefully people realize that Kobe wouldn't win without Pau and the rest of the crew just like Thomas couldn't win without Dumars, Laimbeer etc, Jordan wouldn't win without Pippen etc

You should go look at the stat sheet. Observe Bryants numbers from the playoffs from 2008-2010.

Bruno
08-23-2011, 09:55 PM
If an talent per inch breakdown offers a given player no clear advantage while on the court, or when observing statistics, then why should it be used in favor while formulating an opinion. Iverson and Barkley were fantastic for their size. Something to consider, not something to be use to out weight other more relevant points such as overall production, efficiency, and effectiveness during a given match-up (not that Charles struggled in any of those catagories, offensively). Amazing yes, but it shouldn't be used as the crutch of an argument.

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 10:18 PM
I think I should clear things up. By no means am I saying Allen Iverson is a better player than another because he's shorter. What I am saying however is what he accomplished is unique for a player his size (shortest MVP/scoring champ) and is something that should not be overlooked.

I by no means think A.I. is a better player than say Kobe Bryant because he's shorter or anything of that sort. What I do think however that to ignore his perceived disadvantage (which he used to his advantage) may take away from his legacy. I'll say the same for Chuck, Magic and Dirk. These players do/did things that players of their stature are not generally expected to be able to do and they do/did them at an elite level.

Bruno
08-23-2011, 10:33 PM
I think I should clear things up. By no means am I saying Allen Iverson is a better player than another because he's shorter. What I am saying however is what he accomplished is unique for a player his size (shortest MVP/scoring champ) and is something that should not be overlooked.

I by no means think A.I. is a better player than say Kobe Bryant because he's shorter or anything of that sort. What I do think however that to ignore his perceived disadvantage (which he used to his advantage) may take away from his legacy. I'll say the same for Chuck, Magic and Dirk. These players do/did things that players of their stature are not generally expected to be able to do and they do/did them at an elite level.

I think what those guys did was special too. Like you said, they turned these perceived disadvantages into advantages.

THE MTL
08-23-2011, 10:36 PM
voting for Iverson. best little man to play the game.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-23-2011, 11:40 PM
Your on my list Champ

Awesome.

Stuckey#3
08-24-2011, 12:03 AM
I vote Zeke (Isiah Thomas)... Blah blah blah. Baylor. Blah blah blah. Wade.

Also with all do respect I could see why "JORDANS BULLS" would hate Zeke... due to the beatings your boy took by means of the "Jordan Rules".

Raps18-19 Champ
08-24-2011, 12:06 AM
I'm torn between Pippen and Wade.

Pippen is a defensive beast and could have held his own as a scorer.

Wade was a legit leader who carried his team in the finals.


I might side with Pippen though.

I nominate Alex English. He probably shouldn't be there till like after the top 50 players but he was a legit scorer.

JordansBulls
08-24-2011, 12:16 AM
Here is the latest thus far. I am only taking votes and nominations of posters who were sure of who they were taking. If you still haven't voted then go ahead and do so. Do it so it is easily readable.


Vote:
Nominate:


Here is the list of posters who participated and who they voted for.


Votes:

Dwyane Wade – JordansBulls, Swashcuff, HoopsDrive, ATX

Scottie Pippen - chacarronsau, Bruno87, MJ-BULLS, 23dragonzord, Cavs_Fan24, NBAfan4life

Allen Iverson - Hustlenomics, AIMelo=KillaDUO, pd7631, ebbs, LakersIn5, THE MTL

Rick Barry - Hellcrooner, Lakersfan2483, tredigs

Bob Cousy - KnicksorBust, mavwar53, drose, LAKERMANIA, Lakerfrk,

Clyde Drexler - AntiG

Jason Kidd - MacFitz92, Byronicle, MTar786

Elvin Hayes - NYKalltheway

Isiah Thomas - bootsy, Stuckey#3

Walt Frazier - Da Knicks



Nominations:

Tracy Mcgrady - JordansBulls, MTar786

Robert Parish - Hellcrooner, Bruno87, HoopsDrive, LAKERMANIA

Chris Webber - 23dragonzord

Artis Gilmore - Swashcuff

Adrian Dantley - MacFitz92

Paul Arizin - NYKalltheway

Paul Pierce - Lakersfan2483

Chris Paul - ebbs



Deadline is going to be 12 PM Central Standard Time Tomorrow for this thread. After that the votes won't count. Have to have some stipulation so that others don't come in after I have posted the results and try to vote.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 12:48 AM
Ugh I really didnt think I would have to start playing politics this early but the AI Fanboys are coming into play sooner that I was hoping. I think Im going to have to vote Pippen.

Lets put things into perspective kids, Iverson has a career PER of 20.9, now lets consider the main shortcomings associated with PER. 1) It places a premium on shot creation low efficiency be damned, 2) It ignores positional defense and can overrate players who garner high STL/BLK counts in gambling ways.

So despite PER being geared towards chucking gamblers like AI, he barely musters a 20.9 with a PEAK of 24. That shouldnt be cutting it right now, Pippen at his absolute PEAK was at 23.2 and is known as the best defender at his position on top of an unselfish facilitator.

Pippen easily tops AI

Chronz
08-24-2011, 12:50 AM
Completely agree. I don't know why some people think that AI's supporting cast on that Sixers team that went to the Finals was good. AI carried that team on his back.

Explain to me how a pint sized SG who couldnt defend his own position carried the Sixers to a top defensive showing. If you mean he carried the offense then yes but dont make his team out to be scrubs.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-24-2011, 12:50 AM
I'm torn between Pippen and Wade.

Pippen is a defensive beast and could have held his own as a scorer.

Wade was a legit leader who carried his team in the finals.


I might side with Pippen though.

I nominate Alex English. He probably shouldn't be there till like after the top 50 players but he was a legit scorer.

Vote: Pippen. Defense and all the **** he did.
Nominate: Alex English. BAMF scoring machine.

Swashcuff
08-24-2011, 12:51 AM
Ugh I really didnt think I would have to start playing politics this early but the AI Fanboys are coming into play sooner that I was hoping. I think Im going to have to vote Pippen.

Lets put things into perspective kids, Iverson has a career PER of 20.9, now lets consider the main shortcomings associated with PER. 1) It places a premium on shot creation low efficiency be damned, 2) It ignores positional defense and can overrate players who garner high STL/BLK counts in gambling ways.

So despite PER being geared towards chucking gamblers like AI, he barely musters a 20.9 with a PEAK of 24. That shouldnt be cutting it right now, Pippen at his absolute PEAK was at 23.2 and is known as the best defender at his position on top of an unselfish facilitator.

Pippen easily tops AI

PSD's most popular A.I. fanboy here.

Agreed

Chronz
08-24-2011, 12:54 AM
i consider drexler a SF.

1 Jordan
2 West
3 Bryant
4 D Wade
5 Dantley
6 Gervin
7 E Monroe
8 Maravich
9 J Wilkes
10 Walter Davis
11 Ray Allen
12 David Thompson
13 Alex Enlgish
14 Reggie Miller
15 R Blakcman
16 Joe Dumars
17 Byron Scott
18 Fred Brown
19 T-Mac ( injuries)
20 V Carter


I consider Iverson a pg , if you were wondering.....( not that i would have chosen him over anyone on the list tough)

Tmac ***** on Alex English all the way up to Gervin, injuries prevented him from contending for GOAT but he still had a pretty impressive prime run all things considered. Not getting passed R.1 doesnt outweigh how much his teams overachieved

Chronz
08-24-2011, 01:01 AM
Could you name 3 finals teams with a worst supporting cast of players than the 00-01 76ers?

I'll give you a start with the 07 Cavs (LeBron still had more offensive help than A.I.)..... Can you name 2 more?

Easy, Moses Rockets one of Baylors early Lakers team among others

Swashcuff
08-24-2011, 01:01 AM
Explain to me how a pint sized SG who couldnt defend his own position carried the Sixers to a top defensive showing. If you mean he carried the offense then yes but dont make his team out to be scrubs.

Well seeing that no other finals team in NBA in the shot clock era has ever featured just 1 player averaging 12 or more points per game I think it's fair to say that he did indeed carry the team.

The offensive burden A.I. had to carry while not as heavy as the overall burden Hakeem had in 04 or James had in 07 was still a tonne to deal with, and though the old cliche says defense wins championships you still need players to put the ball in the hole if you're going to win the game.

I'd say he carried the team offensively but he didn't take time off on D he was just a bad defender. Overall on defense he at least made an effort.

Hellcrooner
08-24-2011, 01:06 AM
Tmac ***** on Alex English all the way up to Gervin, injuries prevented him from contending for GOAT but he still had a pretty impressive prime run all things considered. Not getting passed R.1 doesnt outweigh how much his teams overachieved

yet overachieving with teams ( even worse than Tmacs) is never taking into play when people talk bout a certain dude.....1st round becomes a weapong against him

Swashcuff
08-24-2011, 01:07 AM
Easy, Moses Rockets one of Baylors early Lakers team among others

You're right on Baylor's first Laker team.

Moses' Rockets well, lets just say a 30+ year old Calvin Murphy is better offensively than any player A.I. was ever teamed with in the early part of his career. Robert Reid was also a well equipped 2 way player and also better offensively than any player A.I. had on his team. It was a different era and a different ball game as well.

By my criteria however both teams deserve to be in the argument.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 01:12 AM
Well seeing that no other finals team in NBA in the shot clock era has ever featured just 1 player averaging 12 or more points per game I think it's fair to say that he did carry the team.

The offensive burden A.I. had to carry while not as heavy as the overall burden Hakeem had in 04 or James had in 07 was still a tone to deal with, and though the old cliche says defense wins championships you still need players to put the ball in the hole if you're going to win the game.

I'd say he carried the team offensively but he didn't take time off on D he was just a bad defender. Overall on defense he at least made an effort.

Considering your criteria of "Carrying" only considers the offensive burden I think its fair to say you have a significantly easier definition of it.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 01:14 AM
yet overachieving with teams ( even worse than Tmacs) is never taking into play when people talk bout a certain dude.....1st round becomes a weapong against him
I see what your saying but lets not get out of hand, if your talking about Pau Gasol you couldnt be any more wrong, his teams were stacked compared to what Tmac had in his prime.

And even if you had a point the reason it holds Pau back is because HE didnt perform at a rare level, and he most definitely didnt overachieve in the playoffs. He had that horrible series vs Dirk and was abused by Amare in the other ones.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 01:18 AM
You're right on Baylor's first Laker team.

Moses' Rockets well, lets just say a 30+ year old Calvin Murphy is better offensively than any player A.I. was ever teamed with in the early part of his career. Robert Reid was also a well equipped 2 way player and also better offensively than any player A.I. had on his team. It was a different era and a different ball game as well.

By my criteria however both teams deserve to be in the argument.
Now the fanboys coming out of you, there is NO WAY a 40-42 team that had to dethrone the Lakers with Moses just abusing KAJ is of comparable support to a team that won off the strength of something AI didnt provide. AI wouldnt have made it to the playoffs with that rag tag team

Swashcuff
08-24-2011, 01:26 AM
Now the fanboys coming out of you, there is NO WAY a 40-42 team that had to dethrone the Lakers with Moses just abusing KAJ is of comparable support to a team that won off the strength of something AI didnt provide.

IMO it's fair to say that Moses had more offensive help than A.I. did. Again as I said eras was different but as far as offense goes especially come playoff time, Moses didn't have the type of worries that A.I. did. Hell I think even at a much higher pace no one in A.I.'s cast outside of Mckie was capable of scoring more than 15 a game.

Overall (offense, defense, rebounding) Moses had it tougher but there is a reason why his scoring could have dropped come playoff time and yet still his team could have pulled off the upsets of the Lakers* and the Spurs.

Swashcuff
08-24-2011, 01:35 AM
Oh and the reason why I put an * over the Lakers is because he averaged over his 27 against them it was his Finals that year however that brought down in PPG average. I believe against the Spurs he was also under his season average but I could be wrong about that one.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 01:44 AM
IMO it's fair to say that Moses had more offensive help than A.I. did.
Again Im not speaking about one side of the game so theres no need to keep driving this point home, Im talking about a players impact as a whole and the level of talent they had alongside them vs their competitions. I dont think you understand just how dominant Moses had to be to lead a sub.500 team to the Finals.
First lets get one thing straight, Moses ***** on AI. So unless you can explain this paradox of how a truly elite player can have equal support (in terms of Roster and Coaching advantages) yet lose more than the team carried by elite defense that an inferior player did not provide, Moses had EASILY less support.
Like its not even debatable, think about it, the first player you mentioned was 5"9 Calvin Murphy, the guy played limited minutes. In terms of stats, Iverson didnt even lead his team in WS and his PER barely touches Moses despite playing against vastly easier defenses.


Again as I said eras was different but as far as offense goes especially come playoff time, Moses didn't have the type of worries that A.I. did. Hell I think even at a much higher pace no one in A.I.'s cast outside of Mckie was capable of scoring more than 15 a game.

No matter the era, your support is graded on both offense and defense, AI was carried to that defensive placement.


Overall (offense, defense, rebounding) Moses had it tougher but there is a reason why his scoring could have dropped come playoff time and yet still his team could have pulled off the upsets of the Lakers* and the Spurs.

If you know the stats from those series lets hear em out. They still exceed those of AI's and we already know his defensive impact is far superior.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 01:54 AM
Also one of the 2 Warriors teams seem pretty weak outside Wilt, Barry. Barry actually won a title with that squad.

Swashcuff
08-24-2011, 02:22 AM
Again Im not speaking about one side of the game so theres no need to keep driving this point home, Im talking about a players impact as a whole and the level of talent they had alongside them vs their competitions. I dont think you understand just how dominant Moses had to be to lead a sub.500 team to the Finals.
First lets get one thing straight, Moses ***** on AI. So unless you can explain this paradox of how a truly elite player can have equal support (in terms of Roster and Coaching advantages) yet lose more than the team carried by elite defense that an inferior player did not provide, Moses had EASILY less support.
Like its not even debatable, think about it, the first player you mentioned was 5"9 Calvin Murphy, the guy played limited minutes and missed 2 games in the playoffs. In terms of stats, Iverson didnt even lead his team in WS and his PER barely touches Moses despite playing against vastly easier defenses.

When you say didn't lead his team in WS I take it you're talking about the post season.

In my heart of hearts I know Malone's cast wasn't as strong (I don't care what you say we both know he had more help offensively) but I just can't help but attempt to make my case for A.I. I guess my irrationality may be coming out a bit. :speechless:


If you know the stats from those series lets hear em out. They still exceed those of AI's and we already know his defensive impact is far superior.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1124362/1/index.htm
^a bit on the Lakers vs Rockets series.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1124403/index.htm

In the next game Houston received 41 points and 15 rebounds from Moses Malone for a 112-99 victory

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1124427/index.htm

Rockets took a 3-2 lead over the Spurs on a 123-117 triumph at San Antonio's HemisFair Arena behind 36 points by Calvin Murphy and 34 by Moses Malone. Ma-lone scored 36 the following night


The Rockets won the series clincher 105-100, Murphy getting 42 points

A.I.'s 01 Sixers cast highest individual output was by Theo Ratliff who scored just 27 points. Murphy went off for 42 in the clincher. ;)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1124442/index.htm

Malone, who had only 12 points, but the Rockets got 23 from Calvin Murphy to win 92-88.

Chances are when A.I. scores 12 his Sixers wasn't winning the game. Much less a post season game. :)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1124463/index.htm
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=aWVHAAAAIBAJ&sjid=R3wMAAAAIBAJ&pg=1798,1078046&dq=moses+malone&hl=en'
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=bQYkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XO4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6887,4481086&dq=moses+malone&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ObIfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cNcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1939,5098271&dq=moses+malone&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HFdOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WPkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6932,2429302&dq=moses+malone&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=pdYeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DV0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6958,754029&dq=moses+malone&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5og1AAAAIBAJ&sjid=pJ4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=4253,1870262&dq=moses+malone&hl=en

Those are a good start. There is a bit more and under normal circumstances I'd take the time to compile the data but I'm living in a totally different time zone from you and I really am a bit tired so I'm really not up to it ATM. Hope it gives you a better indicator though.

EDIT: I'm no longer going to try to make a case for A.I.'s cast being stronger so we can kill that argument if you want to, if you want to continue I don't mind, but I now concede that A.I.'s cast was better overall. In terms of offense however my stance is firm.

MTar786
08-24-2011, 11:05 AM
pippen vs AI.. man thats a tough one.. I think id go with AI if i had to choose one guy.. but pippen would be the far better 2nd option.

1-800-STFU
08-24-2011, 11:07 AM
Derrick Rose

pd7631
08-24-2011, 11:52 AM
Now the fanboys coming out of you, there is NO WAY a 40-42 team that had to dethrone the Lakers with Moses just abusing KAJ is of comparable support to a team that won off the strength of something AI didnt provide. AI wouldnt have made it to the playoffs with that rag tag team

I only glanced at the posts revolving around this argument, and my only response is this....

Hasn't Moses already been chosen in this PSD poll? Yes, so why the argument between AI and Moses?

Chronz
08-24-2011, 01:16 PM
I only glanced at the posts revolving around this argument, and my only response is this....

Hasn't Moses already been chosen in this PSD poll? Yes, so why the argument between AI and Moses?
Because the conversation took us there

Hustlenomics
08-24-2011, 01:34 PM
Come on guys, don't just throw a one word liner and say a player and nothing else.

For instance if you are picking Allen Iverson say because he led a team to the top seed, won league mvp and is 2nd all time in playoff ppg.

Something like that at least shows some effort.

-Big East Rookie of the Year award
-2X Big East Defensive Player of the Year
-First team AP All-American, 1996
-97 Rookie Of The Year
-97 Rookie Game MVP
-97 All Rookie First-Team
-7 x All-NBA Selection
-3 x steals champion(01,02,03)
-4 x NBA Scoring Champion(99,01,02,05)
-11 x NBA All-Star
-2 x NBA All-Star Game MVP(01,05)
-2001 NBA MVP
-1983 Career Steals (12th all-time)
-5624 Career Assists(4th Actively)
-24,368 Career Points in just 914 games played (17th all-time)
-One of only 5 players in NBA History to average at least 30 ppg and 8 apg in a season
-Career Average of 2.2 SPG(7th all-time)
-Career Average of 6.2 APG
-Career Average of 26.7 PPG(6th all-time)
-5 Consecutive games of 40+ points as a rookie
-Playoff Steal record
-Became fifth player ever to make an average of 30 points and seven assists in a season

Chronz
08-24-2011, 01:43 PM
pippen vs AI.. man thats a tough one.. I think id go with AI if i had to choose one guy.. but pippen would be the far better 2nd option.

Why choose AI if he cant even be as effective as a 1st option as Pippen was as a 2nd? More importantly what makes you think AI is a better 1st option? I didnt see Pippen suffer statistically when MJ left so what exactly are you going by?

Hustlenomics
08-24-2011, 01:50 PM
lol @ bringing up Iverson's efficiency like he wasn't the only option until he went to Denver

pd7631
08-24-2011, 01:52 PM
AI career PER: 20.9

Scottie Pippen career PER: 18.6


That's enough advanced statistics for me though, because what makes a player great isn't always written on paper.....(listening, Chronz?)

Chronz
08-24-2011, 01:59 PM
AI career PER: 20.9

Scottie Pippen career PER: 18.6


That's enough advanced statistics for me though,
Refer to this post: http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19007642&postcount=100 for some perspective on AI's PER.



because what makes a player great isn't always written on paper.....(listening, Chronz?)
LMFAO too bad your comparing AI to one of the greatest intangible players ever considering his defensive worth and the fact that hes a 6 time champion.

AI's PER hurts his argument in this comparison.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 01:59 PM
lol @ bringing up Iverson's efficiency like he wasn't the only option until he went to Denver
LOL @ you thinking you have a point

Swashcuff
08-24-2011, 02:09 PM
I didn't vote A.I. But I gotta defend my guy when I feel he's being done wrong. Chronz you spoke of A.I.'s efficiency or lack of it earlier right. I completely agree that he was an inefficient scorer. You however mentioned earlier his deficiencies in his PER despite having certain aspects in his favour.

Tell me something doesn't minutes played and weak supporting casts t to hurt efficiency more than help? So though there is a logical case against his PER because of his shot creating and what not there is also a logical case as to on of the reasons why he may have been so inefficient.

pd7631
08-24-2011, 02:27 PM
AI put his stamp on every game, he brought it EVERY SINGLE NIGHT, and had the biggest heart of anyone I've ever seen play. Players that have played with him have never said anything negative about him. Hall of Famer Larry Brown has done nothing but praise AI any chance he's got, and has backed him publicly even in his roughest times. AI was the David against the Goliaths of the NBA and was a true pioneer. That's why you can't compare these guys simply on paper when discussing their greatness.

All that said, his career statistics and accomplishments are certainly nothing to scoff at.

Hustlenomics
08-24-2011, 02:30 PM
LOL @ you thinking you have a point

what a clown :facepalm:

JordansBulls
08-24-2011, 02:32 PM
Here is the list of posters who participated and who they voted for.


Votes:

Dwyane Wade (4)– JordansBulls, Swashcuff, HoopsDrive, ATX

Scottie Pippen (8) - chacarronsau, Bruno87, MJ-BULLS, 23dragonzord, Cavs_Fan24, NBAfan4life, Chronz, Raps08-09 Champ

Allen Iverson (6) - Hustlenomics, AIMelo=KillaDUO, pd7631, ebbs, LakersIn5, THE MTL

Rick Barry (3) - Hellcrooner, Lakersfan2483, tredigs

Bob Cousy (4) - KnicksorBust, mavwar53, drose, LAKERMANIA, Lakerfrk,

Clyde Drexler - AntiG

Jason Kidd - MacFitz92, Byronicle, MTar786

Elvin Hayes - NYKalltheway

Isiah Thomas - bootsy, Stuckey#3

Walt Frazier - Da Knicks



Nominations:

Tracy Mcgrady (2) - JordansBulls, MTar786

Robert Parish (4) - Hellcrooner, Bruno87, HoopsDrive, LAKERMANIA

Chris Webber - 23dragonzord

Artis Gilmore - Swashcuff

Adrian Dantley - MacFitz92

Paul Arizin - NYKalltheway

Paul Pierce - Lakersfan2483

Chris Paul - ebbs

Alex English - Raps08-09 Champ


The winners are: Scottie Pippen for the 26th spot and Robert Parish will be added to the next thread.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 02:45 PM
I didn't vote A.I. But I gotta defend my guy when I feel he's being done wrong.
Saying hes not as good as another great player isnt doing him wrong.


Tell me something doesn't minutes played and weak supporting casts t to hurt efficiency more than help?
The correlation between minutes and efficiency is trivial, there is no certainty one way or another, if anything it skews towards more minutes = enhanced play, however, now this is just a personal opinion but the optimal range for efficient play seems to be in between 32-38MPG.
You can google the so called "Milsap Quandary" for more info on the subject but last I checked the site was down, still there should be something somewhere.

All that said, part of AI's value was his legendary stamina, he was a freak athlete, he was always going all out all lowering his MPG would do is lower his value, IIRC he has stated in the past that hes not as good when he has to sit down for extended periods. Wilt Chamberlain has echoed similar thoughts.

As for your good team excuse, well we have seen AI in a variety of roles, and being on a good team would mean less touches, which would mean a lower PER unless he dramatically improves his efficiency, which as we saw in Denver did not come to fruition. I prefer that AI than most of his earlier incarnations, but even that AI falls short.


So though there is a logical case against his PER because of his shot creating and what not there is also a logical case as to on of the reasons why he may have been so inefficient.

There may be some truth in your words but like I always say, if you need so many things to go right just for you to play effectively then that already says something about you. Pippen didnt need to dominate the ball in order to make a heavy impact on the game, his defensive worth, and overall versatility meant you could plug him in anywhere with anyone and see brilliant results.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 02:48 PM
what a clown :facepalm:
well said

Can we prohibit fan boys from voting? Its obvious they wont listen to reason and will relentlessly support their icon no matter what. I mean look at the results, AI nearly won this on the strength of 4 AI fanatics and 2 seemingly objective individuals. Id rather go back to the public polls, atleast then they get mixed in with the rest of the community and not just the hardcore Sixer trolls.

Hustlenomics
08-24-2011, 02:58 PM
well said

Can we prohibit fan boys from voting? Its obvious they wont listen to reason and will relentlessly support their icon no matter what. I mean look at the results, AI nearly won this on the strength of 4 AI fanatics and 2 seemingly objective individuals. Id rather go back to the public polls, atleast then they get mixed in with the rest of the community and not just the hardcore Sixer trolls.

the irony....................

carnage101
08-24-2011, 03:07 PM
reggie miller

Chronz
08-24-2011, 03:14 PM
I dont think you know the definition of the word irony

Durant is hype
08-24-2011, 03:59 PM
What about Dwyane Wade over Scottie Pippen Chronz? I think he has more of an argument over Allen Iverson!?

Chronz
08-24-2011, 04:06 PM
What about Dwyane Wade over Scottie Pippen Chronz? I think he has more of an argument over Allen Iverson!?

I would hope thats obvious to everyone who doesnt have an AI avatar or a sworn allegiance to defend him. And Wade may already have had a superior career to Pippen, if he doesnt already he will soon, hes definitely had a greater PEAK Run than Pippen but Pippen has the longer prime so thus far so both sides have something to go on. Im not really voting for who I want to win but who Id rather not see win. It would be a travesty for AI to go ahead of several guys on the list, but that wont stop the fanboys so I have to vote for whoever has the best chance of winning.

Swashcuff
08-24-2011, 04:17 PM
Saying hes not as good as another great player isnt doing him wrong.

That is not what I spoke of. I spoke solely in the efficiency context.


The correlation between minutes and efficiency is trivial, there is no certainty one way or another, if anything it skews towards more minutes = enhanced play, however, now this is just a personal opinion but the optimal range for efficient play seems to be in between 32-38MPG.
You can google the so called "Milsap Quandary" for more info on the subject but last I checked the site was down, still there should be something somewhere.

I've never heard of the "Millsap Quandary" but I remember reading somewhere (APBRmetrics forum I believe it was) that the their is indeed a negative correlation between efficiency and minutes played.

My personal opinion on this however would be in fact that A.I.'s or any player who plays 40+ mpg efficiency will take a slight hurting. It's only logical. Now I don't have any evidence to back this up but I don't think I am completely wrong in saying it.


All that said, part of AI's value was his legendary stamina, he was a freak athlete, he was always going all out all lowering his MPG would do is lower his value, IIRC he has stated in the past that hes not as good when he has to sit down for extended periods. Wilt Chamberlain has echoed similar thoughts.

You are completely right on what A.I. said. He did say that he didn't feel good doing that which is why he found it so hard to accept being a bench player.


As for your good team excuse, well we have seen AI in a variety of roles, and being on a good team would mean less touches, which would mean a lower PER unless he dramatically improves his efficiency, which as we saw in Denver did not come to fruition. I prefer that AI than most of his earlier incarnations, but even that AI falls short.

Excuse? Chronz how can you call it an excuse? You and I both know that poorer supporting casts generally don't do your efficiency well. There is a reason why (rule changes aside) when he went to Denver he became a more efficient player. Though Iverson's PER was down with the Nuggs his TS% and eFG% went up did it not? That was at the age of 31 on the wrong end of his prime.


There may be some truth in your words but like I always say, if you need so many things to go right just for you to play effectively then that already says something about you. Pippen didnt need to dominate the ball in order to make a heavy impact on the game, his defensive worth, and overall versatility meant you could plug him in anywhere with anyone and see brilliant results.

Did you not see when I said earlier that I am an A.I. fanboy but I agreed with your statement of Pippen being better than A.I.?

IMO it's not really up for debate. My reason for jumping into the A.I. discussion was to speak solely on the point of efficiency and not on the fact of who was better than whom. That's why I made it clear that I did not vote for A.I. I was just defending him.

Like I always say (and this could be partly because I am an A.I. fan) that we place to much emphasis sometimes on efficiency and forget effectiveness.

Like Bill Simmons once said in relation to A.I.

“He had a knack for going 9-for-24 but somehow making the two biggest shots of the game. And he played with an eff-you intensity only KG and Kobe matched (although MJ remains the king in this category)”

As much as he was inefficient it's simply amazing that he could have done the things he was able to do however.

Swashcuff
08-24-2011, 04:19 PM
I would hope thats obvious to everyone who doesnt have an AI avatar or a sworn allegiance to defend him. And Wade may already have had a superior career to Pippen, if he doesnt already he will soon, hes definitely had a greater PEAK Run than Pippen but Pippen has the longer prime so thus far so both sides have something to go on. Im not really voting for who I want to win but who Id rather not see win. It would be a travesty for AI to go ahead of several guys on the list, but that wont stop the fanboys so I have to vote for whoever has the best chance of winning.

What?

I chose Wade ahead of Scottie and would have chosen Scottie ahead of A.I. I have an avatar and a sworn allegiance to defend him. :eyebrow:

naps
08-24-2011, 04:27 PM
So LeBron and Dirk are that ahead of Wade?
How's pippen voted over Wade again? A very good second banana over someone who led his team to the championship with arguably the greatest finals performance ever? Pippen never had peaks as good as Wade either. i seriously don't get it.
Now don't give that 6 championships **** because then you would have to place him in top 10/15. And people like Dirk, Lebron, and most others should be placed behind him as well. I hate double standards.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 04:36 PM
That is not what I spoke of. I spoke solely in the efficiency context.
Im not following you, I was only comparing AI within that scope so whatever gripe you have has nothing to do with my post.


I've never heard of the "Millsap Quandary" but I remember reading somewhere (APBRmetrics forum I believe it was) that the their is a negative correlation between efficiency and minutes played.

Nope, google the study or show me yours.


My personal opinion on this however would be in fact that A.I.'s or any player who plays 40+ mpg efficiency will take a slight hurting. It's only logical. Now I don't have any evidence to back this up but I don't think I am completely wrong in saying it.

In either event its trivial and should be examined on a case to case basis, AI has legendary stamina, he doesnt strike me as the kind of player who needs less minutes to go all out and his performance over his career doesnt suggest it either.



Excuse? Chronz how can you call it an excuse?
Because superior players dont need such favors


You and I both know that poorer supporting casts generally don't do your efficiency well. There is a reason why (rule changes aside) when he went to Denver he became a more efficient player. Though Iverson's PER was down with the Nuggs his TS% and eFG% went up did it not? That was at the age of 31 on the wrong end of his prime.
PER is what you were asking about, the answer was that team influence didnt help your argument. If you wish to discuss the relationship between usage and efficiency then his change in efficiency was somewhat in line with what we should theoretically expect, according to the laws of skill curve and thats being generous. No matter the argument, AI falls short.



Did you not see when I said earlier that I am an A.I. fanboy but I agreed with your statement of Pippen being better than A.I.?

Im speaking within the lens of the Pippen vs AI debate, anything else you have to say has nothing to do with my post but Im answering your questions anyhow.



Like Bill Simmons once said in relation to A.I.
As much as he was inefficient it's simply amazing that he could have done the things he was able to do however.
Yes I get it, he was amazing.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 04:37 PM
What?

I chose Wade ahead of Scottie and would have chosen Scottie ahead of A.I. I have an avatar and a sworn allegiance to defend him. :eyebrow:
Your the exception that proves the rule and even you have a hint of bias

Swashcuff
08-24-2011, 04:49 PM
Im not following you, I was only comparing AI within that scope so whatever gripe you have has nothing to do with my post.

You and I spoke of efficiency not if A.I. was better than Scottie or any other player than was not our discussion.


Nope, google the study or show me yours.

I googled it and got no results. I'll look for what I am speaking of, may take a little while since we know what happened to that forum.


Because superior players dont need such favors

I don't know if I'll agree with this. Superior players have been favoured in a variety of different ways.


PER is what you were asking about, the answer was that team influence didnt help your argument. If you wish to discuss the relationship between usage and efficiency then his change in efficiency was in line with what we should theoretically expect, according to the laws of skill curve. No matter the argument, AI falls short.

That's for PER however PER is not the only measure of efficiency.


Im speaking within the lens of the Pippen vs AI debate, anything else you have to say has nothing to do with my post but Im answering your questions anyhow.

We never had an A.I. vs Pippen debate.


Yes I get it, he was amazing.

It's not even that Chronz you are missing the point. I'm not saying he was amazing all I am saying is that we can't overlook the fact that despite A.I. wasn't the most efficient player in the world he somehow still managed to get the job done.

KnicksorBust
08-24-2011, 04:54 PM
I don't think AI should be going in the poll yet but I have to say he would have been a much more effecient scorer if he got to play with a legit #2 option. He had to carry too much of the load and that hurt him. His TS% shot up playing with Melo in Denver and that was past his prime Iverson. Despite the fact that his usage dropped by 25% his PER only dropped 20%.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 04:57 PM
An old post detailing the study

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14919591&postcount=350

Chronz
08-24-2011, 05:01 PM
I have to say he would have been a much more effecient scorer if he got to play with a legit #2 option. He had to carry too much of the load and that hurt him. His TS% shot up playing with Melo in Denver and that was past his prime Iverson. Despite the fact that his usage dropped by 25% his PER only dropped 20%.
What years are you comparing, Im not seeing this much more efficient player you speak of.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 05:15 PM
I googled it and got no results. I'll look for what I am speaking of, may take a little while since we know what happened to that forum.

They did a good job of finding all the notable threads that garnered significant response, sadly it included one of my earlier threads that looking back really shows how little I knew at the time.


I don't know if I'll agree with this. Superior players have been favoured in a variety of different ways.

ok?


That's for PER however PER is not the only measure of efficiency.
Its the only measure thats geared towards favoring players like AI. Its also the measure you were speaking about in the post I quoted, but to cover both sides of the equation I touched on his possession efficiency as well, again no matter the argument, AI falls short. This is what I mean when I say superior players dont need the favors AI does.


It's not even that Chronz you are missing the point. I'm not saying he was amazing all I am saying is that we can't overlook the fact that despite A.I. wasn't the most efficient player in the world he somehow still managed to get the job done.

Your not getting my point, this is completely useless information because ALL of the players in this list "got the job done", they just got it done in a more impressive manner.

KnicksorBust
08-24-2011, 05:21 PM
What years are you comparing, Im not seeing this much more efficient player you speak of.

He had his two highest years of TS% in his partial year in Denver(50 games in 06-07) 54.5 TS% and his one full season in Denver (07-08) 56.7 TS%.

For his career he was only 51.9 TS% and thats including the two high years he had in Denver. In his peak he was below that.

The closest he came to his Denver numbers was his last season in Philly which happened to be the one full season he had with Chris Webber. So when he had a #2 option in Webber or could share the scorest duties (with Carmelo) he was a much more effecient scorer in terms of TS%.

Chronz
08-24-2011, 06:00 PM
He had his two highest years of TS% in his partial year in Denver(50 games in 06-07) 54.5 TS% and his one full season in Denver (07-08) 56.7 TS%.

For his career he was only 51.9 TS% and thats including the two high years he had in Denver. In his peak he was below that.

The closest he came to his Denver numbers was his last season in Philly which happened to be the one full season he had with Chris Webber. So when he had a #2 option in Webber or could share the scorest duties (with Carmelo) he was a much more effecient scorer in terms of TS%.

Oh in that case then yes, but he would also be significantly less prolific and his overall statistical stature would fall along with it because he didnt become this immensely more efficient scorer, he simply followed a less than typical skill curve.

Efficiency is measured within the context of a players usage/role. So when you say the closest he came to reaching his Denver #'s your boiling it all down to TS%, when Im speaking about both the workload and the efficiency. Otherwise we could say a guy like Steve Kerr is more efficient than MJ, while its true on a per possession basis it speaks little of their load and I dont feel comfortable coming to those conclusions. But yes in terms of purely possession efficiency, his full year with Denver was the best, but why wouldnt you expect him to be more efficient with this decreased load along with rule changes? It would hold true for most players. I should be more clear when I say these things but when I speak of his efficiency, Im trying to consider both the usage and the offensive/defensive environments.

His Final year with Philly was his best year as an individual, it was the first year of the rule change and he was still at the top of his game. In fact I remember an article describing AI as being in the "Phental" state of his career (state of his absolute Mental+Physical supremacy).

But that half season with Den was pretty sad bro, it was the highest T.O.% of his career and his per possession efficiency was pedestrian, a figure that gets worse when you account for league averages.

As for Webber, I wonder if his passing ability helped AI but looking at the splits, his minutes with Webber werent any better than his minutes without Webber, just more scoring less passing, again what you would expect.

JordansBulls
08-25-2011, 05:33 PM
Poll is up now.

LakersMaster24
08-25-2011, 06:13 PM
If Nique and Drexler dont make the Top 30, this thread is a joke.

Also, how can Top 5 SG of all time like Drexler and arguably Wade, not make the Top 30 Players of All-Time?

Iverson deserves to be in the Top 40-35 IMO.

pd7631
08-25-2011, 06:25 PM
If Nique and Drexler dont make the Top 30, this thread is a joke.

Also, how can Top 5 SG of all time like Drexler and arguably Wade, not make the Top 30 Players of All-Time?

Iverson deserves to be in the Top 40-35 IMO.

Why does Dominique Wilkins deserve to be ahead of AI?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-GreatestSGs&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1

1.) MJ
2.) Kobe
3.) Jerry West
4.) Gervin
5.) AI


The 20 people that voted here seem to think that AI is ahead of Drexler, and I could make a strong case for him being ahead of Gervin as well. So if we're talking about top 5 SG's making the top 30....then AI shouldn't be discounted.

NYKalltheway
08-25-2011, 06:32 PM
Why does Dominique Wilkins deserve to be ahead of AI?

is that a serious question or just a test of nerves? :)

edit:
those 20 guys voted Manu Ginobili as top 10 and 2 of them had Drexler off their top 10 lists while one of them had him at #8... that's not a serious list.

pd7631
08-25-2011, 06:33 PM
is that a serious question or just a test of nerves? :)

It's completely serious.

Cano4prez
08-25-2011, 07:08 PM
Why does Dominique Wilkins deserve to be ahead of AI?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-GreatestSGs&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1

1.) MJ
2.) Kobe
3.) Jerry West
4.) Gervin
5.) AI


The 20 people that voted here seem to think that AI is ahead of Drexler, and I could make a strong case for him being ahead of Gervin as well. So if we're talking about top 5 SG's making the top 30....then AI shouldn't be discounted.

Strong homer

pd7631
08-25-2011, 07:09 PM
Strong homer

Sorry, I don't work for ESPN....take the list up with them

naps
08-25-2011, 07:23 PM
Poll is up now.

Thanks JB :up:

naps
08-25-2011, 07:24 PM
Oh, why isn't this poll public like the previous ones?

Cano4prez
08-25-2011, 07:35 PM
Sorry, I don't work for ESPN....take the list up with them

Updated: March 11, 2008

Swashcuff
08-25-2011, 07:40 PM
Strong homer

Great argument.

pd7631
08-25-2011, 07:41 PM
Updated: March 11, 2008

So AI lost all his awards and accomplishments after 2008? The only person that could make a jump ahead of him is D-Wade. If he was ahead of Drexler then, why wouldn't he be ahead of him now?

JordansBulls
08-25-2011, 07:49 PM
Oh, why isn't this poll public like the previous ones?

A mod had to update it, and they probably forgot.

KnicksorBust
08-25-2011, 08:23 PM
Even though it's probably a lost cause, Cousy.

Chronz
08-26-2011, 01:05 AM
Shouldnt it be public so that we can make sure there are no dupes

Chronz
08-26-2011, 01:07 AM
A mod had to update it, and they probably forgot.
So we're stuck with it?

Chronz
08-26-2011, 01:35 AM
Why does Dominique Wilkins deserve to be ahead of AI?
Serious?


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-GreatestSGs&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1

1.) MJ
2.) Kobe
3.) Jerry West
4.) Gervin
5.) AI


The 20 people that voted here seem to think that AI is ahead of Drexler, and I could make a strong case for him being ahead of Gervin as well. So if we're talking about top 5 SG's making the top 30....then AI shouldn't be discounted.
Calm down, 11 of 20 voters thought AI had a better case, 3 people had AI off their top 10 altogether while 2 had Drexler out. Your putting your trust in a system of arbitrary weights instead of focusing on the analysis. That difference from this measuring system was 8 PTS.

So basically your going by what Jamele Hill (the girl who thought Kobe was greater than MJ) thought about the matter to determine this, along with that idiot Mark Jackson.

The list is to spark debate, not to settle it. Why not investigate their careers

The_Pharouh
08-26-2011, 02:10 AM
Scottie Pippen gets my vote this time again

Khalifa21
08-26-2011, 07:58 AM
Dwyane Wade for me..

A title as his teams best player, finals MVP, 25/5/5 sustained throughout his career until now, one of the best two way players of his generation, I can't think of anyone else left on the board that deserves it more than him.

I'm going with Pippen followed by Drexler after this.

Chronz
08-26-2011, 03:55 PM
PS It appears Jalen Rose considered Drexler the 5th best SG in 2008 I wonder if he changed his vote before or after the article, either case he flip flopped within a matter of months.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLN1P4X8eHg&feature=related