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JordansBulls
08-20-2011, 02:17 PM
Voting for #24 has concluded and PSD's Official #24 NBA Player of all time is....

John Havlicek


Top 3 Voters


John Havlicek - 18 votes
Elgin Baylor - 12 votes
Scottie Pippen - 9 votes


The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)
20. Kevin Garnett (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641975)
21. LeBron James (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511)
22. Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643161)
23. Bob Pettit (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=644031)
24. John Havlicek (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=645330)

Voting will now begin for the #25 NBA Player All Time

NOTE: You can only nominate one player and that player had to be an allstar multiple times at least probably at least 3 times at a minimum. The player who has the most nomination votes will be added to the next poll. Anyone who nominates more than one player there nomination will be disregarded.


2nd NOTE: Have seen a lot of posters just vote, but not make a single comment in the thread on there choice. We need you to participate and say why you chose who you did. Basically support it. If not, then don't see why your vote should count.

NYKalltheway
08-20-2011, 02:22 PM
Elvin Hayes.... hopefully he's in the poll

Hellcrooner
08-20-2011, 02:25 PM
going with Rick Barry here and i propose Bernard King Hal greer Ealr Monroe Pau Gasol And Lenny Wilkens to complete the list of votable dudes from here on until the end.

Chacarron
08-20-2011, 02:35 PM
Elgin Baylor.

JordansBulls
08-20-2011, 02:37 PM
Vote: Isiah Thomas
Nominate: Tracy Mcgrady


Isiah gets my vote for simply taking a franchise that never won anything prior to him arriving to back to back champions including a finals mvp and a 27 PER in the finals in 1990.

NYKalltheway
08-20-2011, 02:38 PM
Rick Barry and Bob Cousy should have been top 25 for sure. Clyde Drexler should have been top 25 as well. Elvin Hayes should be top 25 as well. I don't wanna have another rant at who doesn't deserve to be listed there...

PatsSoxKnicks
08-20-2011, 03:02 PM
Vote: Isiah Thomas = better version of Gus Williams
Nominate: Tracy Mcgrady


Isiah gets my vote for simply taking a franchise that never won anything prior to him arriving to back to back champions including a finals mvp and a 27 PER in the finals in 1990.

Look it up if you don't believe me. Both led their team to a championship, Gus fell 1 game short of another one.

Agreed on the nomination for T-Mac.

THE GIPPER
08-20-2011, 03:34 PM
nominate jerry lucas

NYKalltheway
08-20-2011, 04:02 PM
Elvin Hayes... first four years in NBA averaged 27 points and 16 rebounds

All star 12 years in a row
4 all NBA first
3 all NBA second
2 all NBA defensive second
Finished top 10 in MVP award shares 6 times, 2 of them as #3 and once #5
Has a ring while being the best player (averaging 21/13 in the playoffs that year)
3 times leader in Defensive Win Shares (I don't hold this stat at high regards but some who value stats have overlooked this)
#9 of all time in Defensive Win Shares
#14 of all time in Defensive Rebounds (and once led the league in advanced stats Defensive Rebounds)
#15 Defense Rating of all time (don't value this high either, but it is what it is)
#24 of all time in Blocks
Led the league in scoring once and finished top 3 twice, while being #5 on three other occasions.
#8 in NBA points scored and #10 if you count ABA stats as well...

Need more? Can't believe the guys that went before Hayes...

theheatles
08-20-2011, 04:34 PM
Dwyane Wade

KnicksorBust
08-20-2011, 05:07 PM
Bob Cousy.

Career highlights and awards:
6× NBA champion (1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1957)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1954, 1957)
13× All-Star (1951–1963)
10× All-NBA First Team (1952–1961)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1962, 1963)
Led the leagues in assists 8 consecutive seasons.

He was the best guard on the planet for a decade.

KnicksorBust
08-20-2011, 05:08 PM
Rick Barry and Bob Cousy should have been top 25 for sure. Clyde Drexler should have been top 25 as well. Elvin Hayes should be top 25 as well. I don't wanna have another rant at who doesn't deserve to be listed there...

Agreed. No one left stacks up to his credentials and success (both regular season and post season).

Babe Ruth of assists. :)

Chronz
08-20-2011, 05:18 PM
Elvin Hayes... first four years in NBA averaged 27 points and 16 rebounds

All star 12 years in a row
4 all NBA first
3 all NBA second
2 all NBA defensive second
Finished top 10 in MVP award shares 6 times, 2 of them as #3 and once #5
Has a ring while being the best player (averaging 21/13 in the playoffs that year)
3 times leader in Defensive Win Shares (I don't hold this stat at high regards but some who value stats have overlooked this)
#9 of all time in Defensive Win Shares
#14 of all time in Defensive Rebounds (and once led the league in advanced stats Defensive Rebounds)
#15 Defense Rating of all time (don't value this high either, but it is what it is)
#24 of all time in Blocks
Led the league in scoring once and finished top 3 twice, while being #5 on three other occasions.
#8 in NBA points scored and #10 if you count ABA stats as well...

Need more? Can't believe the guys that went before Hayes...

Where the part that describes his cancerous ego, how legendary coaches (including Tex Winter/Hannum) had nothing good to say about him, how he refused to play in the triangle because he thought it would hurt his stats, how coaches kept their prospect away from him, what about his lack of efficiency. The guy was too skilled for his own good. He played a huge role in getting an NBA team to Houston (eventually) but he was a chucker supreme.

He became a team player once he hooked up with Wes but he still had plenty of detractors, Vecsey referred to him as Silent E for disappearing in the 4th. I think he belongs in the top 35 range or whenever Wes gos, call me sentimental but I can't separate the 2 so I dont know agree with you saying he was his teams best player.

Khalifa21
08-20-2011, 05:18 PM
Elgin Baylor

GoPacers33
08-20-2011, 05:22 PM
reggie :)

NYKalltheway
08-20-2011, 05:36 PM
Where the part that describes his cancerous ego, how legendary coaches (including Tex Winter/Hannum) had nothing good to say about him, how he refused to play in the triangle because he thought it would hurt his stats, how coaches kept their prospect away from him, what about his lack of efficiency. The guy was too skilled for his own good. He played a huge role in getting an NBA team to Houston (eventually) but he was a chucker supreme.

He became a team player once he hooked up with Wes but he still had plenty of detractors, Vecsey referred to him as Silent E for disappearing in the 4th. I think he belongs in the top 35 range or whenever Wes gos, call me sentimental but I can't separate the 2 so I dont know agree with you saying he was his teams best player.

I don't think being loved or even liked has any measure on this thing. People hated Barkley for similar reasons too back in his prime... Didn't see that hurt him.

As for being the best player on a team, perhaps it's debatable. I'm assuming Wes is Unseld. Well, it's true that he was a stats whore in his first few years, but his game overshadowed Unseld's imo. I mostly watched the Bullets from their playoff games in the 1978 and 1979 season (not back then though ;) ) and I felt that Unseld was vastly overrated while Hayes was always underrated. Unseld's prime was way earlier though. Probably a top 3, if not the best two-way PF the league has produced in my opinion.

In 1978 championship season, Wes Unseld wasn't even the 2nd best guy on that Bullets team either.

You can't say that the San Diego Rockets was a good team during Hayes' tenure. Most of their stars were soon-to-be-stars since they were either rookies or guys with 1 year experience (Calvin Murphy, Tomjanovich etc). You can't say that Hayes held that team back really :p

Chronz
08-20-2011, 06:29 PM
I know how your perceived isn't always true but when discussing players we have limited footage of (compared to todays stars), when it becomes a trend and your openly opposed to a team system because you put yourself ahead of the team, it plays a role, not as big of a role as stats but a role none the less.
When the stats confirm your lack of efficient play it only serves to strengthen their opinion. This isn't the case with anyone who's gone ahead of him and there are still more deserving individuals.

I just don't see how you can put him ahead of Reed or Ewing. And those guts aren't coming up yet IMO. We still have Frazier (in case you haven't noticed I'm testing your allegiance), Cowens, hell I would take AI before Elvin.

NYKalltheway
08-20-2011, 06:49 PM
haha my allegiance lies to what my eyes tell me it's right or wrong. Had I watched Frazier in his prime I'd be saying he's the goat :D

I agree that we don't have much footage or even stat figures for some of these guys, but when we got Dirk voted over guys like Petit, Barry, Havlicek and Cousy (I can go on), when we have Kobe voted at #8 and Lebron at #21, well, I don;t think there's much to discuss :laugh2: It seems as it's either present day frenzy or ignorance to the past legends. And seeing Wade competing for #25 makes me stop caring about these results (I've actually stopped caring after #20 really ;p )

KingPosey
08-20-2011, 06:57 PM
Mitch Richmond.

LAKERMANIA
08-20-2011, 07:18 PM
Elgin Baylor

todu82
08-21-2011, 09:13 AM
Isiah Thomas

Brooklyn Mets
08-21-2011, 09:47 AM
Elgin Baylor should be the clear winner here so I threw in a homer vote for Willis Reed

Gary Reasons
08-21-2011, 10:02 AM
Damm y'all think Michael Jordan bad? I got five more rings that Michael Jordan had

Swashcuff
08-21-2011, 10:06 AM
haha my allegiance lies to what my eyes tell me it's right or wrong. Had I watched Frazier in his prime I'd be saying he's the goat :D

I agree that we don't have much footage or even stat figures for some of these guys, but when we got Dirk voted over guys like Petit, Barry, Havlicek and Cousy (I can go on), when we have Kobe voted at #8 and Lebron at #21, well, I don;t think there's much to discuss :laugh2: It seems as it's either present day frenzy or ignorance to the past legends. And seeing Wade competing for #25 makes me stop caring about these results (I've actually stopped caring after #20 really ;p )

Tell me something why do you think LeBron, Dirk and Wade being in the top 25 is such a bad thing? Their résumés once put into actual perspective are better than that of many players on this list.

You do realize that you are basically the only (smart) person on the face of God's green earth who would say Kobe Bryant isn't a top 20 player all time right?

You said Cousy revolutionized the PG, but hasn't Dirk done the same at the PF?

Of all the forums I've seen doing these rankings and all the most recent articles on them I have seen on every single occasion that Kobe makes it into the top 20 but for season reason you are the only sane person on earth who thinks he isn't.

It's a real shame that you have such an appreciation for the history of the game but not the history that these players are making right before our eyes.

Chronz
08-21-2011, 10:53 AM
Having trouble choosing between pip, elgin, barry.

ragee
08-21-2011, 11:42 AM
reggie :)

Can Reggie make a legit case? If so, I am voting for him too! :D

Chronz
08-21-2011, 02:12 PM
You've got to be ******** me. Reggie barely cracks the top 50

NYMetros
08-21-2011, 02:19 PM
Cousy

NBAfan4life
08-21-2011, 03:22 PM
There is no way Reggie has a case for being ahead for Ray Allen let alone in this debate.

NYKalltheway
08-21-2011, 04:25 PM
Tell me something why do you think LeBron, Dirk and Wade being in the top 25 is such a bad thing? Their résumés once put into actual perspective are better than that of many players on this list.

You do realize that you are basically the only (smart) person on the face of God's green earth who would say Kobe Bryant isn't a top 20 player all time right?

You said Cousy revolutionized the PG, but hasn't Dirk done the same at the PF?

Of all the forums I've seen doing these rankings and all the most recent articles on them I have seen on every single occasion that Kobe makes it into the top 20 but for season reason you are the only sane person on earth who thinks he isn't.

It's a real shame that you have such an appreciation for the history of the game but not the history that these players are making right before our eyes.


Dirk revolutionized the PF position? Go back a few decades, there's another German who did that ;) Dirk is the new product.

I'm not the only person who thinks Kobe shouldn't be a top 10 player of all time. I'm just saying that there's also many other guys I'd pick over him between 10 and 25. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Isiah Thomas. Lucky sob who got in a favorable situation. One of the toughest players to mark, one of the best "little" scorers and so on. Still not picked. I'd take him over Kobe any day of the week. And guess what, we're on #25 and Isiah is still on the running...

Lebron James? With 7 years of NBA experience? What about Willis Reed? 7 years in the NBA with 2 championships and 1-2 finals appearances. Guess that means nothing till someone tells us right? Is that because for the last 6 years all you see/listen when the NBA is on is Lebron James?

Dwayne Wade? Seriously? Over Rick Barry for example? Over John Havlicek? Over Clyde Drexler? HOW?
I really wonder where Clyde Drexler will rank here. A guy whose stats are almost identical to Kobe's - Drexler > Kobe in most stat lines - and has had **** teammates for the most of his career Please don't say Porter was a legit star and that Buck Williams was a top PF when you compare that to Bulls, Pistons, Lakers, Celtics, Knicks, Hornets etc back in the days... and Drexler reached the finals 2-3 times and won a ring while probably the most talented center ever, Hakeem, was the 2nd best guy in that team after him. How is Kobe better than this guy again?

Swashcuff
08-21-2011, 05:24 PM
Dirk revolutionized the PF position? Go back a few decades, there's another German who did that ;) Dirk is the new product.

Name me one other PF in the history of all of basketball who has ever had the kind of accomplishments Dirk has had while playing his style of basketball. Name one.


I'm not the only person who thinks Kobe shouldn't be a top 10 player of all time. I'm just saying that there's also many other guys I'd pick over him between 10 and 25. Why is that so hard to grasp?

You are the only person who has said that Kobe shouldn't be top 20 however. I never said top 10 I said top 20 and twice.


7. Shaq
8. Hakeem
9. Duncan
10. Oscar
11. Dr J
12. Moses Malone
13. Jerry West
14. Havlicek
15. Karl Malone
16. Garnett
17. Barkley
18. David Robinson
19. Ewing
20. Stockton
21. McHale
22. Isaiah
23. Drexler
24. Kobe

there, said it. (not my complete list, but sort of right)
And some guys like Mikan, English, Baylor, Wilkins, Pippen, Hayes, Gervin, Kidd, Dantley, McAdoo, Archibald, Worthy and Reggie Miller should be named before Kobe... Kobe is severely overrated in here. He was never THE most dominant player during his era. A top 10-15 guy MUST be the most dominant player of his era, at least in his position. Kobe was only considered unanimously* the best SG in the league for like 2-3 seasons in his entire career.

*where unanimously = people could not even dare mention another name, while they even mentioned guys like Vince Carter and nobody laughed..

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18518805&postcount=136

That was your take on where Kobe stands and NO ONE agreed with you. You said that he's not a top 20 player and many still had a case over him who weren't in the top 23.

You are the only person I've ever heard say that current Kobe Bryant is not a top 20 player all time.


Isiah Thomas. Lucky sob who got in a favorable situation. One of the toughest players to mark, one of the best "little" scorers and so on. Still not picked. I'd take him over Kobe any day of the week. And guess what, we're on #25 and Isiah is still on the running...

That's your opinion but guess what the vast majority of basketball historians, analysts, writers, execs etc would take Kobe in a millisecond over Isiah. Isiah has literally no case over Kobe other than someone's personal preference.


Lebron James? With 7 years of NBA experience? What about Willis Reed? 7 years in the NBA with 2 championships and 1-2 finals appearances. Guess that means nothing till someone tells us right? Is that because for the last 6 years all you see/listen when the NBA is on is Lebron James?

So you value quantity over quality right? The fact that LeBron dominated his era in a way Willis Reed couldn't in his means nothing right?

LeBron finished top 10 in MVP shares (I saw you use this in your arguments earlier so I highly doubt you are going to attempt to chastise me for using it) in all his 8 seasons in the league, Willis finished top 10 3 times. LeBron also led the league twice and finished in the top 5 6 times. Well Willis's 3 top 10 were also top 5s.

I know that's only one way of looking at it but that just goes to show the level of play LeBron has been able to keep over his time in the league. Something which Willis did not.

Despite having 2 FMVP Willis only made the All NBA first team once in his career LeBron James on the other hand has 5 in his 8 years.

Let's also not forget that despite the fact that Willis does indeed have 2 FMVPs most would say that Walt was the best player on those Championship teams. Matter of a fact by the time Willis won his 2nd he basically road the proverbial wave until playoff time. He never had the task in which LeBron had to lead a team (the Cavs) to the finals.

There is a reason why I said "Their résumés once put into actual perspective are better than that of many players on this list."

Put any of these player's résumé into perspective and I guarentee you that no one left ranks higher than LeBron or Dirk.


Dwayne Wade? Seriously? Over Rick Barry for example? Over John Havlicek? Over Clyde Drexler? HOW?

Havlicek went already. I'm speaking of players who are still left. I also said many (did not specify whom) on the list. However my argument for Dwyane over Drexler would be the fact that Wade was able to lead his team to a championship during the prime of his career while putting on one of the greatest finals performances in the history of the NBA. Then he comes in a losing effort in 2011 and backs that up with another all time great performance.

Let's talk a bit of stats. And I'm not talking advanced. I'm talking the kind you like. Basic and a bit of MVP shares.

Basic

Player G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Clyde Drexler* 1086 950 34.6 7.7 16.3 .472 0.8 2.4 .318 4.3 5.5 .788 2.4 3.7 6.1 5.6 2.0 0.7 2.7 3.0 20.4
Dwyane Wade 547 539 37.6 8.9 18.4 .485 0.6 1.9 .292 7.0 9.1 .769 1.3 3.8 5.1 6.3 1.8 1.0 3.6 2.6 25.4

Wade betters Drexler in every damn near every single statistical category, and had he a couple more inches of height on him he'd more likely than have not only more blocks but more rebounds per game than the glide.

MVP Shares

Player Career
Clyde Drexler 0.778
Dwyane Wade 0.784

In 7 less years in the league Dwyane has already accumulated more MVP shares than Drexler and he's still playing the best SG in the league and may remain that way for the next 2-3 years. Meaning he's still going strong.

Anything else? Because I got a whole lot more and I'm not talking advanced metrics either


I really wonder where Clyde Drexler will rank here. A guy whose stats are almost identical to Kobe's - Drexler > Kobe in most stat lines - and has had **** teammates for the most of his career Please don't say Porter was a legit star and that Buck Williams was a top PF when you compare that to Bulls, Pistons, Lakers, Celtics, Knicks, Hornets etc back in the days... and Drexler reached the finals 2-3 times and won a ring while probably the most talented center ever, Hakeem, was the 2nd best guy in that team after him. How is Kobe better than this guy again?

You know you ill speak Kobe so much. Wrap your brain around this simple notion. When didn Kobe's best seasons in terms of basic stats come? When he had little to no help right aka the Smush Parker years. So don't you think Clyde having less help would have helped his basic #s especially his PPG?

Anywho as for stats go, again I will not engage you in an advanced stats debate so I'll stay basic for ya. Why not put Kobe's career in perspective when trying to debate his stats? IMO it's incredibly ignorant to include Kobe's first 2 seasons where he was relegated to bench duty all along while learning the game since he was seen as too young and raw to be entrusted with the starting duties.

Had Clyde come into the lead at 18 he would have faced the same conundrum. So for the sake of argument the Greatest Players of All Time lets take Kobe's bench years out and see what his #s being to look like.

But hey let's not just be one side lets leave out Clyde's first 2 years as well, even though he was 3 years older than Kobe he too started out a bench player.


Player G GS MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT%
Kobe Bryant 953 948 38.8 9.6 21.0 1.4 4.0 6.8 8.2 1.2 4.5 5.7 5.1 1.6 0.5 3.1 2.7 27.4 .456 .337 .840
Clyde Drexler* 924 904 36.3 8.1 17.3 0.9 2.8 4.7 6.0 2.5 4.0 6.5 6.0 2.1 0.7 2.8 3.0 21.9 .471 .319 .791

now tell me something does Clyde's basic #s look THAT much better than Kobe's?

A look at their MVP Shares.

MVP Shares

Player Career
Clyde Drexler 0.778
Kobe Bryant 3.763

You really think Clyde stats are > Kobe.

Something you fail to realize when comparing across eras and comparing one great to another, everything must be put into perspective. If not then Cousy would be a top 10 player.

One last thing. In terms of peak Kobe, LeBron and Wade have all the guys you mention beat in terms of basic (once put into perspective relative to era of course which means making pace adjustments) and advanced metrics.

NYKalltheway
08-21-2011, 05:56 PM
your logic is flawed.. you keep pouring out numbers and figures comparing apples and oranges.

Willis Reed was all NBA 1st team only three times? Indeed. Blame it on Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Elgin Baylor, Wes Unseld, Bill Cunningham and many more... What does all NBA teams in 60s and 70s have to do with Lebron being on more all NBA teams in the 2000s?? :facepalm:

And Kobe becoming a stats whore when Shaq left taking 25 shots a game does not make him a legend... not sure why you think it does. Kobe's status has grown in 2008 when he manned up and played for the team.

People who have never saw all time greats play shouldn't judge them. You're giving me freaking numbers when I f-ing saw Clyde Drexler play and saw Kobe Bryant play as well... There's too much to compare, but what Kobe did, Clyde did it first, and better. Kobe's only advantage over Clyde Drexler is that he had Shaq in his prime help him with 3 rings (we can add a few fixed playoff series here as well but let's not spice things up)

Stats don't tel the whole picture. You all need to understand that.

As for MVP shares... really? Drexler vs guys PAST his time? When Drexler faced Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Karl Malone, Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Dominique Wilkins, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Scottie Pippen (shall I continue? I can add Isiah Thomas, Kevin McHale and plenty more 'superstars' here)

MVP shares are exclusively for the era of a player, and more importantly, the season he plays. Do you even know how they are measured?

Swashcuff
08-21-2011, 06:36 PM
your logic is flawed.. you keep pouring out numbers and figures comparing apples and oranges.

Willis Reed was all NBA 1st team only three times? Indeed. Blame it on Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Elgin Baylor, Wes Unseld, Bill Cunningham and many more... What does all NBA teams in 60s and 70s have to do with Lebron being on more all NBA teams in the 2000s?? :facepalm:

And Kobe becoming a stats whore when Shaq left taking 25 shots a game does not make him a legend... not sure why you think it does. Kobe's status has grown in 2008 when he manned up and played for the team.

People who have never saw all time greats play shouldn't judge them. You're giving me freaking numbers when I f-ing saw Clyde Drexler play and saw Kobe Bryant play as well... There's too much to compare, but what Kobe did, Clyde did it first, and better. Kobe's only advantage over Clyde Drexler is that he had Shaq in his prime help him with 3 rings (we can add a few fixed playoff series here as well but let's not spice things up)

Stats don't tel the whole picture. You all need to understand that.

As for MVP shares... really? Drexler vs guys PAST his time? When Drexler faced Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Karl Malone, Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Dominique Wilkins, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Scottie Pippen (shall I continue? I can add Isiah Thomas, Kevin McHale and plenty more 'superstars' here)

MVP shares are exclusively for the era of a player, and more importantly, the season he plays. Do you even know how they are measured?

Is this man seriously serious?

You are kidding me right? Right?

You were the one who brought up stats. When I come back at you with the very stats in which you argued over and over saying that Player X was better than Player Y in you bask me for using them.

If was your argument NOT mine. I just corrected you on it.

To this point I brought ZERO statistics into my argument YOU were the one who brought stats. NOT me you brought up stats time and time again and now YOU are trying to tell me about bringing up stats? That's the definition of irony and ignorance.

You challenge me when you had many holes in your argument to start with. First you said LeBron James played 7 years in the league, when in actuality he played 8, then you said after 7 years Willis Reed had 2 titles which is wrong. You were also the one who ignored me saying that you said Kobe is not a top 20 player and changed it to top 10. You knew you said top 20 and you KNOW that there is no knowledgeable basketball mind who agrees with your ignorance.

You want to know what you were wrong again in saying? Willis Reed never made 3 All NBA Teams he made 1. For someone who should be an expert on Willis you seem to have your facts mixed up a bit.

The reason why Willis wasn't on more first teams? Do you wanna know? It's because he was not as good as Chamberlain, Jabbar, Russell, Baylor among others. LeBron James however, dominated his competition and was as good and in some cases better than Duncan, Garnett, Gasol, Nowitzki, Durant, Pierce, Stoudemire etc.

You challenge my logic? Are you mad? I used the same arguments YOU used in your cases all along and now you come to tell me my logic is flawed? So then why do you even make those points in your arguments. By that basis your entire knowledge of the game itself is flawed.

You boast that you saw Clyde play, tell me did you see Cousy as well? So how can you tell me Cousy has a case up here when you never saw him play?

You want to know why I looked at all NBA teams? Because outside of looking at stats its a fair indicator of how well a player's prime was as relative to his counterparts and exactly how long it lasted. It's also called being holistic. It's also understand that their is virtually no debate for Reed over LeBron. NONE but since you saw him play I guess you will say otherwise.

Matter of a fact I do know how award shares are measured and what it represents. It's a good indicator as well as how a player performed relative to his peers. YOU used them. This is what I can't understand you were the one who used all these #s in your arguments but now when someone shows you up you bring up the good ole I saw the player play card.

I respect the eye test of a poster such as Chronz. Someone who saw just as many players as you but withholds his ignorance and biases because of his respect for the players and respect for the game. Posters like yourself and Hellcrooner who have been around much longer than most of us and think that means you are a better judge of a player's worth because of it but still blatantly hate on certain players (in your case Kobe in Crooner's case Dirk) I really don't take to seriously.

I respect your knowledge of the game and your appreciation of it's history but you really got issues and those issues cloud you from making a proper assessment of a player's true worth.

tredigs
08-21-2011, 06:46 PM
Swash laying waste - yikes. I'm in the same boat on all of your points, too.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-21-2011, 06:57 PM
Yeah agreed. On another note NYKalltheway, why do you feel like modern players should have no right to be put up there with historical players? Do you feel the game is THAT much worse now days?

To be honest, I think if you stuck the majority of players from the 60s-70s in today's game, a lot of them wouldn't be able to handle it. Players get faster, stronger, etc., plus with advances in medicine. But of course, thats not fair to those players. But you're almost the opposite it seems. You really think the modern game is that bad compared to what it was like back in the old days?

i.e. a guy like Lebron is freakishly built and many guys in the 60s-70s would probably have a very difficult time stopping him. He's quite strong too so you can't use the excuse that he wouldn't be able to handle the physical play.

PS- Swash, it would be nice if you answered one of my VMs :(

GREATNESS ONE
08-21-2011, 07:02 PM
Tell me something why do you think LeBron, Dirk and Wade being in the top 25 is such a bad thing? Their résumés once put into actual perspective are better than that of many players on this list.

You do realize that you are basically the only (smart) person on the face of God's green earth who would say Kobe Bryant isn't a top 20 player all time right?

You said Cousy revolutionized the PG, but hasn't Dirk done the same at the PF?

Of all the forums I've seen doing these rankings and all the most recent articles on them I have seen on every single occasion that Kobe makes it into the top 20 but for season reason you are the only sane person on earth who thinks he isn't.

It's a real shame that you have such an appreciation for the history of the game but not the history that these players are making right before our eyes.


:nod:


Having trouble choosing between pip, elgin, barry.

:up:



You've got to be ******** me. Reggie barely cracks the top 50

:laugh2:

Swashcuff
08-21-2011, 07:57 PM
PS- Swash, it would be nice if you answered one of my VMs :(

My bad bro, I'm such a guy when it comes to those kinds of things. :laugh2:

PatsSoxKnicks
08-21-2011, 08:03 PM
My bad bro, I'm such a guy when it comes to those kinds of things. :laugh2:

:laugh2: No biggie.

BTW, if you're doing the NBA sim league, I'd be interested in being your assistant or Co.

Swashcuff
08-21-2011, 08:27 PM
:laugh2: No biggie.

BTW, if you're doing the NBA sim league, I'd be interested in being your assistant or Co.

I'm not at the moment actually but I'll be sure to check it out.

Khalifa21
08-21-2011, 08:39 PM
:laugh2: No biggie.

BTW, if you're doing the NBA sim league, I'd be interested in being your assistant or Co.

Damn, got there before me... I was gonna ask the exact same thing :laugh2:

KnicksorBust
08-21-2011, 10:04 PM
Something you fail to realize when comparing across eras and comparing one great to another, everything must be put into perspective. If not then Cousy would be a top 10 player.


I agree but knowing that, how far can we realistically drop him down this list before it becomes unreasonable?

Swashcuff
08-21-2011, 10:19 PM
I agree but knowing that, how far can we realistically drop him down this list before it becomes unreasonable?

I always viewed Cousy as a top 30 player all time. If he falls any lower than 35 that will be a extremely unreasonable. He has a solid case for top 25 but then again so does many who have already gone.

tev_dodd
08-21-2011, 11:28 PM
Kidd over Nash for me

dev0
08-21-2011, 11:50 PM
pretty close between scottie pippen and elgin Baylor, i'd be happy with either

PatsSoxKnicks
08-22-2011, 01:58 AM
I'm not at the moment actually but I'll be sure to check it out.

Well if you decide to, I'd be willing to be your assistant or Co. Don't really care which one. I'm going to be somewhat busy coming up, which is why its probably better if I have a Co or an assistant (plus I've never done it before). And if I were to do it (which I'm still deciding), I'd like to be partnered with someone who well, knows what they're talking about :laugh2: And you definitely do, plus you tend to think similar to me (as in not ignoring statistical evidence like a majority of the fools on this site do).

So yeah, I've made my case lol.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-22-2011, 02:03 AM
Damn, got there before me... I was gonna ask the exact same thing :laugh2:

Maybe you, me and Swash can do a 3 poster team or something. I love doing these types of games but will be very busy so I wouldn't mind have limited input.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-22-2011, 02:07 AM
I wonder if my statistical comparison would've helped make it easier for anyone. Unfortunately, I still have to do it for a bunch of players on the list. Only have Baylor's numbers currently.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-22-2011, 02:16 AM
Win Share numbers:


best 3 5 con 10 con WS
Pippen 38.1 57.0 100.2
Elgin 40.7 58.4 87.3
Wade 42.1 54.2 82.6


Pippen's 10 consecutive are hurt by only 50 games in the 99 season. Didn't project it out which I should/will do eventually.

Also, not sure how good Elgin was defensively. I'm willing to assume that Pippen's defensive win share totals are probably accurate (if not undervalued).

Anyways, take it for whatever its worth.

Bruno
08-22-2011, 04:50 AM
Win Share numbers:


best 3 5 con 10 con WS
Pippen 38.1 57.0 100.2
Elgin 40.7 58.4 87.3
Wade 42.1 54.2 82.6


Pippen's 10 consecutive are hurt by only 50 games in the 99 season. Didn't project it out which I should/will do eventually.

Also, not sure how good Elgin was defensively. I'm willing to assume that Pippen's defensive win share totals are probably accurate (if not undervalued).

Anyways, take it for whatever its worth.

Pippen is also 3rd all time in defensive playoff win-shares. Behind only Russell and Wilt.

JordansBulls
08-22-2011, 07:56 AM
Come on guys, there are 80 votes in this poll yet only 26 posters have even participated or said anything in this thread at all. Where are these 54 other rogue votes coming from? If you can take the time to vote, then at least come in and say why.

Swashcuff
08-22-2011, 08:04 AM
Come on guys, there are 80 votes in this poll yet only 26 posters have even participated or said anything in this thread at all. Where are these 54 other rogue votes coming from? If you can take the time to vote, then at least come in and say why.

:clap:

Exactly

MTar786
08-22-2011, 08:24 AM
elgin baylor

and i nominate: Michael Ray Richardson
Nate Archibald
T-mac
Grant hill (pre injury)

tredigs
08-22-2011, 10:44 AM
Elgin Baylor is still on the board? Wow. I was starting to give him consideration at 13-14, but Pettit was still around and in need of some representation. Baylor fell too low, though. Stockton at 18... but Baylor still here at 25? Stockton has no case over Elgin Baylor. Really, none. And he's not the only one.

Looks like he's going now though, so I guess one of the best two-way wings of all time doesn't need much of an argument in his favor at this point. So I'll just post my favorite quote I've read on Baylor:

“I know this sounds weird, but I thought you played Elgin great today” (Bob Cousy to defensive specialist Tom Sanders after Elgin Baylor scored 63 points against the Celtics in a playoff game)

PurpleJesus
08-22-2011, 10:57 AM
ice man

DR_1
08-22-2011, 11:33 AM
Dwyane Wade

:laugh:

Homerism at it's best.

DR_1
08-22-2011, 11:34 AM
Baylor, Cousy, Pippen

Swashcuff
08-22-2011, 11:35 AM
:laugh:

Homerism at it's best.

How is that homerism at it's best Wade has just as solid a case as anyone else here.

DR_1
08-22-2011, 12:37 PM
How is that homerism at it's best Wade has just as solid a case as anyone else here.

Wade does not have a solid case over guys like Baylor, Drexler, Isiah, Pippen, and quite a few others.

Swashcuff
08-22-2011, 01:03 PM
Wade does not have a solid case over guys like Baylor, Drexler, Isiah, Pippen, and quite a few others.

Why doesn't he? He has a higher individual peak of any of the players and with the exception of Isiah actually led his team to a title. Wade's case for a top 25 player all time is MUCH better than that of Drexler's, better than Isiah and just around that of Baylor's and Pippen's.

tredigs
08-22-2011, 01:28 PM
Why doesn't he? He has a higher individual peak of any of the players and with the exception of Isiah actually led his team to a title. Wade's case for a top 25 player all time is MUCH better than that of Drexler's, better than Isiah and just around that of Baylor's and Pippen's.

Disagree with the other guy that it's homerish at all to start seriously considering Wade, but on par with Baylor? Can't agree with that. Baylor was just too dominant for too long for Wade to touch that at this point (someday soon maybe - especially considering the deep playoff opportunities he'll be having, but not yet). Talking about a guy who has more All-NBA 1st teams than Wade has years in the league. A guy who in his peak (alonside Jerry West on his team, no less) put up 38/19/5 (en route to helping lead the Lakers to 7 against Russell's Celtics no less). Even adjusted for pace, that's out of control. 19 rebounds at 6'5" while putting up ~40 every game the whole season? Yikes. He was also the leading scorer en route to the Finals 4 or 5 seasons in a row. All while playing fantastic D and generally outrebounding the other teams centers when Wilt, Bill or Pettit weren't in town.

edit: Advanced stats wise, they did not keep quite enough stats to make it an apt comparison - but with his rebounding numbers and sheer scoring ability it probably wouldn't be close when comparing primes. Wade has him on shooting efficiency (as you know, always lower then. As much as pace helps their per-game averages, it hurts their efficiency) and playmaking ability, that's about it.

Hellcrooner
08-22-2011, 02:28 PM
elgin baylor

and i nominate: Michael Ray Richardson
Nate Archibald
T-mac
Grant hill (pre injury)

:speechless:.................but hey what do i know....i mean Shawn kemp is up there to be voted............................................. .

Hellcrooner
08-22-2011, 02:35 PM
Btw, i think the remaining players with a REAL CASE to be top 50 should be (more or less cronologically):

Earl Monroe
Artis Gilmore.
Fred Brown.
Gus Williams.
Jamaal Wilkes.
SPencer Haywood.
Jack sikma.
Dan Issell.
David Thompson.
Alex English.
Adrian Dantley.
RObert Parish.
Alvin Robertson.
Dennis Rodman
Mullins.
Reggie Miller-
JOe Dumars.
Chris webber.
Paul Pierce.
Pau Gasol.

Notice that ive taken Down IMCOPLETE careers by INJURY ( like grant Hill, hardaway,MIng or Bernard king, no matter how good they were in their prime/healthy moments)

tredigs
08-22-2011, 02:38 PM
:speechless:.................but hey what do i know....i mean Shawn kemp is up there to be voted............................................. .

I had a laugh at that one too... explain to us how we can have Richardson on the board when Gary Payton still is not receiving a vote? It would be a stretch to argue him in the top 100. Top 125 sounds about right. Basically Rajon Rondo of the 70's (if Rondo was drafted ahead of Larry Bird... whoops!).

tredigs
08-22-2011, 02:40 PM
Btw, i think the remaining players with a REAL CASE to be top 50 should be (more or less cronologically):

Earl Monroe
Artis Gilmore.
Fred Brown.
Gus Williams.
Jamaal Wilkes.
SPencer Haywood.
Jack sikma.
Dan Issell.
David Thompson.
Alex English.
Adrian Dantley.
RObert Parish.
Alvin Robertson.
Dennis Rodman
Mullins.
Reggie Miller-
JOe Dumars.
Chris webber.
Paul Pierce.
Pau Gasol.

Notice that ive taken Down IMCOPLETE careers by INJURY ( like grant Hill, hardaway,MIng or Bernard king, no matter how good they were in their prime/healthy moments)

Don't consider Bill Walton a top 50 candidate then?

Hellcrooner
08-22-2011, 02:42 PM
Don't consider Bill Walton a top 50 candidate then?

thers a BIG difference between walton and the rest.

When he was healthy he ACTUALLy LED a team to a ring.

tredigs
08-22-2011, 02:57 PM
thers a BIG difference between walton and the rest.

When he was healthy he ACTUALLy LED a team to a ring.

Fair enough - just saying, Walton only had a couple healthy seasons, but there's no doubt that he was a legend during them. I guess it just means you value max-peak (plus very little else) over ~5-6 prime years and random solid seasons amid injury.

In Bills case, I probably agree. But it's a pretty arbitrary threshold when it comes to the other guys.

Hellcrooner
08-22-2011, 03:03 PM
Fair enough - just saying, Walton only had a couple healthy seasons, but there's no doubt that he was a legend during them. I guess it just means you value max-peak (plus very little else) over ~5-6 prime years and random solid seasons amid injury.

In Bills case, I probably agree. But it's a pretty arbitrary threshold when it comes to the other guys.

Yeah well if he hadnt won that ring i would leave him out, but you cant deny that fact.

I mean im a great Fan of Bernard King, and i really thought he actually was on the Level of Bird and Magic , but injuries deprived us of seeing where he could have reached.
I mean a Healthy King+ Ewing could have very probably changed the history of the league.

But i cant deny the injuries and thus i cant honestly include him in a top 50.
I mean im almost certain that if you asked bernard if he woudl change his career for Gasols he would say yes, not that great a peak but solid all around and being important in TWo rings.

Swashcuff
08-22-2011, 06:08 PM
Disagree with the other guy that it's homerish at all to start seriously considering Wade, but on par with Baylor? Can't agree with that. Baylor was just too dominant for too long for Wade to touch that at this point (someday soon maybe - especially considering the deep playoff opportunities he'll be having, but not yet). Talking about a guy who has more All-NBA 1st teams than Wade has years in the league. A guy who in his peak (alonside Jerry West on his team, no less) put up 38/19/5 (en route to helping lead the Lakers to 7 against Russell's Celtics no less). Even adjusted for pace, that's out of control. 19 rebounds at 6'5" while putting up ~40 every game the whole season? Yikes. He was also the leading scorer en route to the Finals 4 or 5 seasons in a row. All while playing fantastic D and generally outrebounding the other teams centers when Wilt, Bill or Pettit weren't in town.

edit: Advanced stats wise, they did not keep quite enough stats to make it an apt comparison - but with his rebounding numbers and sheer scoring ability it probably wouldn't be close when comparing primes. Wade has him on shooting efficiency (as you know, always lower then. As much as pace helps their per-game averages, it hurts their efficiency) and playmaking ability, that's about it.

My opinion is that Baylor benefited greatly from play in the era in which he did.

Baylor averages more career FGA/G than anyone in league history. With the pace of the game when he played alongside West it's not really a shocker to me that he was able to put up the #s in which he did. With the average FG% of his time and the pace in which they played it's also not surprising that a supremely athletic (he was a notch above anyone playing his position) player such as Baylor would be able to grab down near 19 rebounds per game despite his height.

I'm not trying to downplay what he did but he's suffering from the very same criticism as Oscar did which saw him fall out the top 10. Adjusted per pace Baylor while still top 25 calibre #s aren't as flashy as we may think. As for his first team accomplishments I don't think he had the kind of competition at the F are Wade has at the G during his career. Baylor was still a top calibre franchise type player however.

Despite Baylor's offensive and rebounding prowess from all what I have read about Baylor I haven't really heard his defense being spoken of too highly. IMO he was another one of those who was ahead of his time and really dominated because of his time because of it. Not holding that against him because I actually see that as a major +.

I can't discount Wade's performances in the 06 Finals (ref aided or not). While Baylor has the 6th highest ever finals PPG average (26.4 in 44 finals games) Wade even betters that with his 30.6 finals PPG average in much less games however.

One of Wade's finals runs represented one of the greatest complete finals performances in the history of the game resulting in two peaces of hardware which no matter how much he tried Elgin just couldn't get his hands on (really can't blame him though he played alongside a top 15 player in West the Celts were just that good of a T.E.A.M.) and something which really hurts his legacy.

It's marginal but I tend to value quality over quantity and IMO Wade's peak is greater than that of Baylor's especially when put into perspective.

Tony_Starks
08-22-2011, 07:02 PM
Lebron and Dirk should NOT be top 25. Drexler, JKidd, and even Nash yes. Dirk and Lebron no. They're resumes are still being built. Especially Lebron if he were to retire right now there would be some glaring negative marks on his credit report.

But to the topic I think it's Elgin but since he's a Laker I'll go with non homer pick and say Scottie Pippen. His defense on the wings and in the post was the backbone of those championships.....

NYKalltheway
08-22-2011, 07:09 PM
Is this man seriously serious?

You are kidding me right? Right?

You were the one who brought up stats. When I come back at you with the very stats in which you argued over and over saying that Player X was better than Player Y in you bask me for using them.

If was your argument NOT mine. I just corrected you on it.

To this point I brought ZERO statistics into my argument YOU were the one who brought stats. NOT me you brought up stats time and time again and now YOU are trying to tell me about bringing up stats? That's the definition of irony and ignorance.

You challenge me when you had many holes in your argument to start with. First you said LeBron James played 7 years in the league, when in actuality he played 8, then you said after 7 years Willis Reed had 2 titles which is wrong. You were also the one who ignored me saying that you said Kobe is not a top 20 player and changed it to top 10. You knew you said top 20 and you KNOW that there is no knowledgeable basketball mind who agrees with your ignorance.

You want to know what you were wrong again in saying? Willis Reed never made 3 All NBA Teams he made 1. For someone who should be an expert on Willis you seem to have your facts mixed up a bit.

The reason why Willis wasn't on more first teams? Do you wanna know? It's because he was not as good as Chamberlain, Jabbar, Russell, Baylor among others. LeBron James however, dominated his competition and was as good and in some cases better than Duncan, Garnett, Gasol, Nowitzki, Durant, Pierce, Stoudemire etc.

You challenge my logic? Are you mad? I used the same arguments YOU used in your cases all along and now you come to tell me my logic is flawed? So then why do you even make those points in your arguments. By that basis your entire knowledge of the game itself is flawed.

You boast that you saw Clyde play, tell me did you see Cousy as well? So how can you tell me Cousy has a case up here when you never saw him play?

You want to know why I looked at all NBA teams? Because outside of looking at stats its a fair indicator of how well a player's prime was as relative to his counterparts and exactly how long it lasted. It's also called being holistic. It's also understand that their is virtually no debate for Reed over LeBron. NONE but since you saw him play I guess you will say otherwise.

Matter of a fact I do know how award shares are measured and what it represents. It's a good indicator as well as how a player performed relative to his peers. YOU used them. This is what I can't understand you were the one who used all these #s in your arguments but now when someone shows you up you bring up the good ole I saw the player play card.

I respect the eye test of a poster such as Chronz. Someone who saw just as many players as you but withholds his ignorance and biases because of his respect for the players and respect for the game. Posters like yourself and Hellcrooner who have been around much longer than most of us and think that means you are a better judge of a player's worth because of it but still blatantly hate on certain players (in your case Kobe in Crooner's case Dirk) I really don't take to seriously.

I respect your knowledge of the game and your appreciation of it's history but you really got issues and those issues cloud you from making a proper assessment of a player's true worth.


I'm not gonna comment on everything but you get caught up on details...

Where did I use stats and saying it's my argument? Hayes? Saying on the same post that I don't rate some of those stats at all gives me a statistician's tag? Fine, Willis Reed took himself 9 years in the league before winning that 2nd ring, I made a mistake there. So what? Does that change anything?

As for me hating/bashing Kobe... you must have no clue of who you're talking to. I got 2 NBA jerseys (recenlty bought). One of them is Orlando Magic #12 Dwight Howard, the other is LA Lakers #8 Kobe Bryant (don't like #24)

I've always said that Kobe is the best player of the last 5 years, it's just weird that he was never, without a single person able to doubt, the best player in the league for a given season. Always top 3 or top 5 since 2005.

Saying he's not Top 20 means I'm bashing him? Is it right if I call you a Gervin basher? Or a Rick Barry basher? Or a Clyde Drexler basher? Or an Elvin Hayes basher? Or a Bob Cousy basher? Because with the same logic you're calling me a Kobe basher, you are actuallly a far worse basher of those guys and even more, than I am.
And Lebron dominating a weaker league, with weaker competition, with amateur street ball rules does not give him the right to be in the question "Who are the top 50 NBA players ever?". He could have a say if he actually won something. Perhaps you can counter this and say Oscar Robertson's the same case... Well at least we know Oscar's story. Lebron is still writing his and he has good future ahead of him. Till then, not even top 50 in my books. There's at least 50 better guys in the game in the USA EVER (that's what people these days don't get, professional basketball begun in late 40s, not 15 years ago....)
Lebron being superduper doped doesn't mean he's a top 20 player ever. If you think Lebron (and many others these days with the 1 antidoping test every 12 months by appointment) is 'clean'... well it's a "common secret" that NBA players are using PEDs in the last decade. I can't really consider these guys better than pure basketball players. Sorry about that. Subject to change if the NBA enforces some real anti-doping rules.

Swashcuff
08-22-2011, 08:30 PM
I'm not gonna comment on everything but you get caught up on details...

Where did I use stats and saying it's my argument? Hayes? Saying on the same post that I don't rate some of those stats at all gives me a statistician's tag?

No one gave you any tag. It basically copied your argument and applied it to other players. I used you exact reasoning and logic and got chastised for it. I argued you on the very points in which you made and I got blasted for it. Does that not seem a bit ignorant to you? When something is only good when you use it but when someone else does they don't know what they are talking about?


Fine, Willis Reed took himself 9 years in the league before winning that 2nd ring, I made a mistake there. So what? Does that change anything?

It says that you tried to play me for a fool. You very well knew the facts but attempted to boost your guys' case when you knew the facts. You maybe thought since I'm 21 and you're much older you know the game better than I do and know more. Well I'll tell you this I'm wise beyond my years and unlike you I have very few biases.


As for me hating/bashing Kobe... you must have no clue of who you're talking to. I got 2 NBA jerseys (recenlty bought). One of them is Orlando Magic #12 Dwight Howard, the other is LA Lakers #8 Kobe Bryant (don't like #24)

What does you owning a Kobe jersey prove? :confused:

If I'm a basketball enthusiastic who like collecting various items I'll collect a player's memorabilia despite my feelings towards him or his place in history.


I've always said that Kobe is the best player of the last 5 years, it's just weird that he was never, without a single person able to doubt, the best player in the league for a given season. Always top 3 or top 5 since 2005.

You also said he's not a top 20 player all time, a very overrated player and got fat when playing for a team where his 3rd best player wouldn't start on the vast majority of NBA teams and his 2nd best was seen as the biggest under achiever in the league. What else was he to do?


Saying he's not Top 20 means I'm bashing him? Is it right if I call you a Gervin basher? Or a Rick Barry basher? Or a Clyde Drexler basher? Or an Elvin Hayes basher? Or a Bob Cousy basher? Because with the same logic you're calling me a Kobe basher, you are actuallly a far worse basher of those guys and even more, than I am.

What is this?

I am a bigger basher of those guys because I say there aren't top 20 when Kobe' has won just as much titles as those players won at their team's best player. Kobe by himself has as much FMVPs as all those players in which you mentioned and just as much league MVPs.

I am in NO way bashing those players. I am rating them fairly. Because I say Kobe, LeBron, Dirk, Wade all deserve to be ahead of them is bashing them? Well FYI the entire basketball universe must be doing the same because that is becoming the common belief among knowledgeable non ignorant basketball minds.

Had I said something stupid like they don't belong to be top 60 then I could understand but I didn't and would not. They are generally ranked between 15-50 in most articles, site rankings, forum rankings etc. In damn near every credible ranking Kobe is top 10. You are again the only person I've ever seen who says he isn't even top 20.


And Lebron dominating a weaker league, with weaker competition, with amateur street ball rules does not give him the right to be in the question "Who are the top 50 NBA players ever?". He could have a say if he actually won something. Perhaps you can counter this and say Oscar Robertson's the same case... Well at least we know Oscar's story. Lebron is still writing his and he has good future ahead of him. Till then, not even top 50 in my books. There's at least 50 better guys in the game in the USA EVER (that's what people these days don't get, professional basketball begun in late 40s, not 15 years ago....)
Lebron being superduper doped doesn't mean he's a top 20 player ever. If you think Lebron (and many others these days with the 1 antidoping test every 12 months by appointment) is 'clean'... well it's a "common secret" that NBA players are using PEDs in the last decade. I can't really consider these guys better than pure basketball players. Sorry about that. Subject to change if the NBA enforces some real anti-doping rules.

I'm sorry but these sorts of statements don't deserve any sort of thought out response because I really doubt you put any thought into any of what you said here. :pity:

MTar786
08-22-2011, 08:49 PM
:speechless:.................but hey what do i know....i mean Shawn kemp is up there to be voted............................................. .

lol my nominations were sarcastic.. because of the fact that guys like shawn kemp are up there.

add rodman too! :D

Tony_Starks
08-22-2011, 09:21 PM
Shout out to the 7 people that voted for AI! You should get some kinda psd award for that!

NYKalltheway
08-23-2011, 06:54 AM
Swashcuff, you're doing the same thing you're accusing me of doing. You rate players differently, you rate them because you saw them yesterday and because you know what to say about them while you haven't seen how the NBA looked earlier (there's plenty of classic games on youtube as well as many DVDs you can find older games to compare the eras)

You're calling me a Kobe basher when I admit that he;s the best player since 2005 and could be the best player of the decade(have him #3 there) just because I don't rank him highly in ALL TIME. I was just proving that you're a "basher" of those older players because you might admit they're good, but don't rank them highly in all time. You're doing the same exact thing. We're both overreacting here.

As for PEDs, please get real. It's a reality in the NBA and the whole world knows it ;)
Thank mr Stern for that, for ruining the NBA's image around the world bar the USA (which is happening too from the comments I see from fans of other sports unless this has been happening forever which I cannot know)

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 09:36 AM
Swashcuff, you're doing the same thing you're accusing me of doing. You rate players differently, you rate them because you saw them yesterday and because you know what to say about them while you haven't seen hw the NBA looked earlier (there's plenty of classic games on youtube as well as many DVDs you can find older games to compare the eras)

You see bro that's where you go completely wrong. If that were my basis I would have voted Allen Iverson a long time ago. I watch him play more than anyone else. Shouldn't I think he's great than say Jerry West, Isiah Thomas, Bob Cousy because of it? Well I don't.

I have a deep rooted appreciation for the game's history as well. Maybe not as much as you but I have done the research to back my opinion. I don't just look at the stats and say one player is better than another. I try to anaylyse the context and put those #s in perspective. I've read probably thousands of articles from the 50s, 60s an 70s. More so than I read from the 90s.

I've tried my very best to inform myself of the game's past and put that which I saw on the back burner. I never saw Dolph Schayes (I don't think any of us has) play but I know from articles, interviews and expert opinions that he was a great player in his time.

As for film c'mon. My dad is into sports just as much as I am and he loved record big games. I have most of the Finals game from 1992 till today on VHS/DVD (though I really haven't done good job of picking up where he left off since I could just download them now), I do indeed watch NBA Classic, use youtube, I haven't gotten around to downloading any old games from the links JB posted but if the lock out lasts too long I'm sure I will.

I don't have the amount of viewing pleasure as you or some of the older posters, but I am not just talking based on what I have viewed because that will certainly be unfair to those that I didn't.


You're calling me a Kobe basher when I admit that he;s the best player since 2005 and could be the best player of the decade(have him #3 there) just because I don't rank him highly in ALL TIME. I was just proving that you're a "basher" of those older players because you might admit they're good, but don't rank them highly in all time. You're doing the same exact thing. We're both overreacting here.

Like I said you saying Kobe is not top 20 All Time is like me saying Rick Barry and George Gervin aren't top 50 players. It's commonly accepted by all great basketball minds than present day Kobe Bryant is worthy of being regarded as a top 20 player all time.


As for PEDs, please get real. It's a reality in the NBA and the whole world knows it ;)
Thank mr Stern for that, for ruining the NBA's image around the world bar the USA (which is happening too from the comments I see from fans of other sports unless this has been happening forever which I cannot know)

Kobe Bryant is a top 20 player all time. It's a reality and the whole world knows it.

NYKalltheway
08-23-2011, 12:44 PM
Rick Barry and George Gervin are top 30 calibre players. Same as Kobe... Saying that they are "top 50" making it sound as obvious as Kobe being "top 20" is plain wrong. Gervin imo is a better player than Kobe Bryant. Not as lucky though. I can't factor luck in all time rankings. You're either good or you're not. When there's 3-4 good players around you, you look better as well and when you win championships you are easily remembered. It's not a fact that players of championship winning teams are better than those who've never won a ring. Otherwise Barkley and Karl Malone would be top 15 PFs and not top 5, as well as top 80 players and not top 20

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 12:47 PM
Rick Barry and George Gervin are top 30 calibre players. Same as Kobe... Saying that they are "top 50" making it sound as obvious as Kobe being "top 20" is plain wrong. Gervin imo is a better player than Kobe Bryant. Not as lucky though

Really?

23. Drexler
24. Kobe

there, said it. (not my complete list, but sort of right)
And some guys like Mikan, English, Baylor, Wilkins, Pippen, Hayes, Gervin, Kidd, Dantley, McAdoo, Archibald, Worthy and Reggie Miller should be named before Kobe... Kobe is severely overrated in here.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18518805&postcount=136

So I guess Kobe falls lower on your list then?

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 12:51 PM
Have I ever mentioned at any time that Kobe is a great player because of his titles? When debating the Greatest Players of All Time I value a players contribution to his teams championship more so than how many titles he won. I also value a player's overall production come playoff time.

I am not a Kobe dick rider who thinks he's the GOAT or even has a case for GOAT but Kobe was the best player on 2 championship teams. The same can't be said about Gervin nor Drexler.

NYKalltheway
08-23-2011, 12:52 PM
Really?


http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18518805&postcount=136

So I guess Kobe falls lower on your list then?

(not my complete list, but sort of right)

:shrug:

Kobe is a top 30 player for sure. Top 20 I can digest if it;s 18-20, but #8 is waaaaay too high.

NYKalltheway
08-23-2011, 12:54 PM
I am not a Kobe dick rider who thinks he's the GOAT or even has a case for GOAT but Kobe was the best player on 2 championship teams. The same can't be said about Gervin nor Drexler.

this is why you overvalue Kobe...

He was the best player, yeah.

Pau Gasol
Ron Artest/Trevor Ariza
Lamar Odom
Andrew Bynum
Derek Fisher

can I spell STACKED?

You really wanna go on with this "championship" thing?

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 01:06 PM
this is why you overvalue Kobe...

He was the best player, yeah.

Pau Gasol
Ron Artest/Trevor Ariza
Lamar Odom
Andrew Bynum
Derek Fisher

can I spell STACKED?

You really wanna go on with this "championship" thing?

Name me 5 championship teams in last 4 years that wasn't STACKED.

I'll start. Barry's Warriors (75) Hayes's Bullets (78) Dream's Rockets (94) Dirk's Mavs (11) ..... could you find one more? Who are you going to argue Duncan's Spurs?

Andrew Bynum was oft injured (they beat the mighty Celtics without him), Ron Artest was relegated to being a defensive specialist and made some big shots along the way. Odom while good on both ends of the floor was not even a top 10 player at his position.

Kobe was the best player on the best team.

Should I penalize Magic and Russell for being the best players on a ABSOLUTELY STACKED teams? Kobe's supporting cast in those 2 years isn't even top 50 among all time supporting casts if you ask me.

Swashcuff
08-23-2011, 01:26 PM
Tell me something.

How does Kobe's support from 05-07 rank against Drexler's and Gervin's worst support in their best individual seasons?

Kobe was arguably a better player in those 2 seasons than Drexler or Gervin was at any point in their career and made the post season in back to back years with no other top 15 player at their respective position.