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Bruno
08-18-2011, 12:22 AM
RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.
NO POSTING in your FORUM, VOTE for this GUY. We had problems last time with it and NO POSTING in someone Else's Forum to VOTE for a certain player.


Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting for #23 has concluded and PSD's Official #23 NBA Player of all time is....

Bob Petit


Top 3 Voters


Bob Petit - 26 votes
John Havlicek - 14 votes
Isiah Thomas - 9 votes


The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)
20. Kevin Garnett (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641975)
21. LeBron James (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511)
22. Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643161)
23. Bob Petit (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?
t=644031)

Voting will now begin for the #24 NBA Player All Time

NOTE: You can only nominate one player and that player had to be an allstar multiple times at least probably at least 3 times at a minimum. The player who has the most nomination votes will be added to the next poll. Anyone who nominates more than one player there nomination will be disregarded.


2nd NOTE: Have seen a lot of posters just vote, but not make a single comment in the thread on there choice. We need you to participate and say why you chose who you did. Basically support it. If not, then don't see why your vote should count.

Bruno
08-18-2011, 12:27 AM
Don't forget to nominate one player!

JordansBulls
08-18-2011, 12:32 AM
Vote: Elgin Baylor (dude was a scoring machine)
Nominate: Elvin Hayes (thought he was already on the list before)

Bruno
08-18-2011, 12:38 AM
Vote: Elgin Baylor (dude was a scoring machine)
Nominate: Elvin Hayes (thought he was already on the list before)

^my mistake. I thought I copied it down exactly from the #23 thread.

Hellcrooner
08-18-2011, 12:41 AM
im going with barry this time, for a change.

anyway i still say nat thrumond should be on the poll--.------

The_Pharouh
08-18-2011, 01:10 AM
Scottie Pippen

LakersIn5
08-18-2011, 01:11 AM
iversonnn

Raps18-19 Champ
08-18-2011, 01:38 AM
Vote: Elgin Baylor (Man beasted in his era)
Nominate: Alex English(BAMF who can score in bunches)

Bruno
08-18-2011, 02:08 AM
Took Pippen here. There is a fine argument for him at #24.

-10 All defensive teams (Eight first team selections).
-7x all-star.
-7x All-NBA teams.
-NBA all-time leader in total post-season steals.
-Third all-time in career post-season defensive W-S (Behind only Wilt and Russell).
-12th all-time in total post-season points scored (more PS points than Wilt).
-6x champion. One of the most under-appreciated #2's in the history of the NBA.

His career TS% is also well above that of Baylor, Havlicek, Thomas, and Rick Barry. His career PER also holds it's own against all of those names. He also has all those names beat in career regular season WS's. I like #33 here. He has an argument as the greatest wing defender in league history.

Is there any doubt that in a discussion of peak that Wade surpasses anyone left on the board? Wade should be in the discussion for top 30. He did post the most dominant finals performance of all-time in 2006.

Hellcrooner
08-18-2011, 03:25 AM
Took Pippen here. There is a fine argument for him at #24.

-10 All defensive teams (Eight first team selections).
-7x all-star.
-7x All-NBA teams.
-NBA all-time leader in total post-season steals.
-Third all-time in career post-season defensive W-S (Behind only Wilt and Russell).
-12th all-time in total post-season points scored (more PS points than Wilt).
-6x champion. One of the most under-appreciated #2's in the history of the NBA.

His career TS% is also well above that of Baylor, Havlicek, Thomas, and Rick Barry. His career PER also holds it's own against all of those names. He also has all those names beat in career regular season WS's. I like #33 here. He has an argument as the greatest wing defender in league history.

Is there any doubt that in a discussion of peak that Wade surpasses anyone left on the board? Wade should be in the discussion for top 30. He did post the most dominant finals performance of all-time in 2006.

mmm barry ( and many others left) HAVE LEAD their teams , ones more stacked others less stacked to a ring (
or
mor
tha
n one ring)

we shouldnt start voting leutenants until we have finished with t
he generals IMO

Pippenfan
08-18-2011, 03:36 AM
Pippen

NYKalltheway
08-18-2011, 03:47 AM
Nominate Elvin Hayes

Voting for Havlicek (since #12 or something ;p)

Bruno
08-18-2011, 04:29 AM
mmm barry ( and many others left) HAVE LEAD their teams , ones more stacked others less stacked to a ring (
or
mor
tha
n one ring)

we shouldnt start voting leutenants until we have finished with t
he generals IMO

Go and look at Barrys statistics from the 1975 playoffs, and compare them with Pippens from the '91 championship run. Their numbers are nearly identical. Pippen was a more efficient scorer than Barry, and as far as comparing the defense between the two it's not even a discussion.

Six as a legitimate #2 while playing some of the greatest perimeter defense in league history carries just as much weight as winning one or two as a "#1". If the lieutenant does just as much in the field as the general there's no reason why his contributions shouldn't be recognized; you won't sell me on that point.

I could also mention that '75 was only the second year after the ABA merger. What effect do you think that had on the level of competition?

You're not going to sell me on the technicalities of the batman/robin debate. Great players need other great players to win. Take Pippen away from the Bulls and you can cut Jordans title count in half. The man has never gotten his due.

KnicksorBust
08-18-2011, 09:41 AM
Bob Cousy.

Career highlights and awards:
6 NBA champion (1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1957)
2 NBA All-Star Game MVP (1954, 1957)
13 All-Star (1951–1963)
10 All-NBA First Team (1952–1961)
2 All-NBA Second Team (1962, 1963)
Led the leagues in assists 8 consecutive seasons.

He was the best guard on the planet for a decade.

Swashcuff
08-18-2011, 10:30 AM
Bob Cousy.

Career highlights and awards:
6 NBA champion (1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1957)
2 NBA All-Star Game MVP (1954, 1957)
13 All-Star (1951–1963)
10 All-NBA First Team (1952–1961)
2 All-NBA Second Team (1962, 1963)
Led the leagues in assists 8 consecutive seasons.

He was the best guard on the planet for a decade.

I respect your knowledge but I really think you are stretching this Cousy being the best guard.

Tell me how many PGs from Cousy's time would you rank in your top 250 or so all time.

If Dwight makes 10 first teams (at this rate with the competition at the C he could make more) is he a greater C that Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem and D-Rob?

KnicksorBust
08-18-2011, 10:39 AM
I respect your knowledge but I really think you are stretching this Cousy being the best guard.

Tell me how many PGs from Cousy's time would you rank in your top 250 or so all time.

If Dwight makes 10 first teams (at this rate with the competition at the C he could make more) is he a greater C that Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem and D-Rob?

The rest of the PGs from that era don't rank among the all-time greats but part of that is b/c Cousy was so busy dominating every relevant guard category (assists, points, all-star teams, all-nba teams, championships). You can't punish him for that.

In regards to your Dwight Howard question, if he also wins 6 rings and leads the league in rebounding and/or shotblocking for 8 consecutive seasons by significant margin, then yes.

Swashcuff
08-18-2011, 10:42 AM
I'm torn here. I'm pondering Baylor, Wade and Havlicek (though I'm a bit skeptical).

Swashcuff
08-18-2011, 11:11 AM
The rest of the PGs from that era don't rank among the all-time greats but part of that is b/c Cousy was so busy dominating every relevant guard category (assists, points, all-star teams, all-nba teams, championships). You can't punish him for that.

I am in no way punishing him for that but what I am doing however is putting his accomplishment into perspective. Just looking at them you'd be blown away but when put into perspective it has to be looked at differently.

You can't say Cousy was busy dominating other PGs in terms of championships. That's a little unfair bro.

One of the many different ways to compare the greats is how they dominated those in their era. Cousy did just that. When however you compare him to those players there is no surprise exactly why he would. So then you look at their statistical difference (and also put those into context since Cousy played in a completely different era from every other Elite PG) and then you see that Cousy while Elite is not upper echelon.


In regards to your Dwight Howard question, if he also wins 6 rings and leads the league in rebounding and/or shotblocking for 8 consecutive seasons by significant margin, then yes.

The fact that you bolded Cousy's first team appearances I took it that you were relating to that when you said he was the best guard on the planet for a decade.

Please lets be fair here Cousy's 6 championships came while playing with a top 5 player and one of the greatest players of all time. During all his title runs he never led the team in scoring he had Tom Heinsohn, Sam Jones and Bill Sharman for that.

He finished in the top 5 in his team in WS for his first 4 titles. By the time he got his other 2 he was basically going along for the ride. I am not saying he wasn't still extremely important but it's not to say that he was the reason as to why they were able to do so well.

Again I am not punishing Cousy I am just putting his accomplishments into context.

Give Dwight that kind of support in todays' NBA (Bill Russell best player = LeBron James and quality scorers Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn and Bill Sharman = Pau Gasol, Kevin Martin, Tony Parker) and he'd be able to get around to winning titles.

I'm sorry but I really can't see a case for Cousy ahead of Havlicek, Baylor, Wade, Nash etc.

Maybe you can do a bit more to sway my opinion though.

todu82
08-18-2011, 11:48 AM
John Havlicek

LAKERMANIA
08-18-2011, 01:04 PM
Havlicek finally

PatsSoxKnicks
08-18-2011, 01:53 PM
What about Cousy's league average TS% year after year? He may have dominated the assist category but dominating the points category is a stretch.

In fact, it's flat out wrong. Consider this, of all of the guards who played 10000 minutes from 51-60, which is not very many, Cousy ranked in the middle for TS%.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1951&year_max=1960&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=10000&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ts_pct

So who was he dominating in regards to points? In fact, in that period of time, Sharman was better than Cousy.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-18-2011, 01:53 PM
I'm torn here. I'm pondering Baylor, Wade and Havlicek (though I'm a bit skeptical).

Want me to post my numbers? :)

Swashcuff
08-18-2011, 01:56 PM
Want me to post my numbers? :)

That will help a great deal. :up:

PatsSoxKnicks
08-18-2011, 02:06 PM
Cousy:


Season Age TS% eFG% avTS% aveFG% TS% aa eFG% aa
1950-51 22 0.415 0.352 0.428 0.356 -0.013 -0.004
1951-52 23 0.445 0.369 0.439 0.366 0.006 0.003
1952-53 24 0.446 0.352 0.445 0.370 0.001 -0.018
1953-54 25 0.464 0.385 0.442 0.373 0.022 0.012
1954-55 26 0.48 0.397 0.455 0.385 0.025 0.012
1955-56 27 0.461 0.36 0.458 0.386 0.003 -0.026
1956-57 28 0.452 0.378 0.449 0.379 0.003 -0.001
1957-58 29 0.415 0.353 0.449 0.383 -0.034 -0.030
1958-59 30 0.454 0.384 0.457 0.395 -0.003 -0.011
1959-60 31 0.439 0.384 0.463 0.409 -0.024 -0.025
1960-61 32 0.436 0.371 0.469 0.415 -0.033 -0.044
1961-62 33 0.443 0.391 0.479 0.426 -0.036 -0.035
1962-63 34 0.448 0.397 0.493 0.441 -0.045 -0.044
1969-70 41 0.579 0.333 0.511 0.460 0.068 -0.127
-0.060 -0.339


avTS% and aveFG% are the league average TS% and eFG% for the league those years.

TS% aa and eFG% aa are the increments above average (or below average) of Cousy's TS% and eFG% respectively.

As you can see, Cousy was either average, slightly below average or slightly above average for most of his career. His career sums are below average.

So again, poor shooter relative to average. How does he deserve to be this high?

GREATNESS ONE
08-18-2011, 02:52 PM
Havlicek or Baylor hmmm...

KnicksorBust
08-18-2011, 03:25 PM
What about Cousy's league average TS% year after year? He may have dominated the assist category but dominating the points category is a stretch.

In fact, it's flat out wrong. Consider this, of all of the guards who played 10000 minutes from 51-60, which is not very many, Cousy ranked in the middle for TS%.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1951&year_max=1960&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=10000&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ts_pct

So who was he dominating in regards to points? In fact, in that period of time, Sharman was better than Cousy.

So let me get this straight. For us to even consider Cousy, not only did he have to lead the league in assists for 8 consecutive seasons, not only did he have to win 6 rings, not only did he have to finish top 10 in scoring 8x (twice coming in 2nd), not only did he have to make every all-star and all-nba 1st team for a decade, BUT he also has to be the most effecient scoring guard of his generation as well?

Notice of all those guards he had the highest PER out of any of them. Him being 7th on that list is not enough to outweigh all of his other accomplishments.

KnicksorBust
08-18-2011, 03:30 PM
I am in no way punishing him for that but what I am doing however is putting his accomplishment into perspective. Just looking at them you'd be blown away but when put into perspective it has to be looked at differently.

You can't say Cousy was busy dominating other PGs in terms of championships. That's a little unfair bro.

One of the many different ways to compare the greats is how they dominated those in their era. Cousy did just that. When however you compare him to those players there is no surprise exactly why he would. So then you look at their statistical difference (and also put those into context since Cousy played in a completely different era from every other Elite PG) and then you see that Cousy while Elite is not upper echelon.



The fact that you bolded Cousy's first team appearances I took it that you were relating to that when you said he was the best guard on the planet for a decade.

Please lets be fair here Cousy's 6 championships came while playing with a top 5 player and one of the greatest players of all time. During all his title runs he never led the team in scoring he had Tom Heinsohn, Sam Jones and Bill Sharman for that.

He finished in the top 5 in his team in WS for his first 4 titles. By the time he got his other 2 he was basically going along for the ride. I am not saying he wasn't still extremely important but it's not to say that he was the reason as to why they were able to do so well.

Again I am not punishing Cousy I am just putting his accomplishments into context.

Give Dwight that kind of support in todays' NBA (Bill Russell best player = LeBron James and quality scorers Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn and Bill Sharman = Pau Gasol, Kevin Martin, Tony Parker) and he'd be able to get around to winning titles.

I'm sorry but I really can't see a case for Cousy ahead of Havlicek, Baylor, Wade, Nash etc.

Maybe you can do a bit more to sway my opinion though.

It's always frustrating for me to read someone trying to downplay titles b/c of the help players had on their teams. Every team in the league has help and in that generation each team had multiple all-stars due to the league being so dense. Imagine if we shrunk the current league down to even 16 teams how much talent would be filled on each roster. I do think you brought up a fair point about how much he was contributing to those titles but even if we ignore two of them, he's still a crucial piece of 4 title teams while being the leagues best facilitator for a decade. Stockton is already on the list, Cousy should be next. When comparing all-time greats you need to look at them in a vacuum and what he did during his era is on par with anyone in history. Try and name me guys with 10 consecutive all-nba 1st teams. He is one of the most accomplished players in NBA History.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-18-2011, 04:02 PM
So let me get this straight. For us to even consider Cousy, not only did he have to lead the league in assists for 8 consecutive seasons, not only did he have to win 6 rings, not only did he have to finish top 10 in scoring 8x (twice coming in 2nd), not only did he have to make every all-star and all-nba 1st team for a decade, BUT he also has to be the most effecient scoring guard of his generation as well?

Notice of all those guards he had the highest PER out of any of them. Him being 7th on that list is not enough to outweigh all of his other accomplishments.

Obviously he's being considered because we're talking about him. But you're just looking at his accomplishments and assuming he's the best because of them. But how about comparing his stats/accolades to those of Havlicek, Elgin Baylor and Pippen?

Pippen and Havlicek have just as many rings (more for Hondo) and Pippen is known as one of the greatest wing defenders in history. Havlicek is obviously one of the greatest guard defenders in history.

So why is Cousy better?

NYKalltheway
08-18-2011, 04:36 PM
Because he changed the game and was light years ahead of his competition? :shrug:

Swashcuff
08-18-2011, 06:06 PM
It's always frustrating for me to read someone trying to downplay titles b/c of the help players had on their teams. Every team in the league has help and in that generation each team had multiple all-stars due to the league being so dense. Imagine if we shrunk the current league down to even 16 teams how much talent would be filled on each roster. I do think you brought up a fair point about how much he was contributing to those titles but even if we ignore two of them, he's still a crucial piece of 4 title teams while being the leagues best facilitator for a decade. Stockton is already on the list, Cousy should be next. When comparing all-time greats you need to look at them in a vacuum and what he did during his era is on par with anyone in history. Try and name me guys with 10 consecutive all-nba 1st teams. He is one of the most accomplished players in NBA History.

I'm confident I'll get through to you but you skin is tough.

If there is limited competition at your position and you are an elite player who is able to stay healthy chances are you'll find yourself on quite a few 1st teams.

Cousy had the fortune of playing in a league where he didn't have much competition at the position in which he played so IMO the All NBA first Team accomplishments are indeed quite overrated. As I said before you have to put each and every accomplishment into perspective.

I am in no way trying to diminish his titles but bro c'mon you have to put them into context. You can't just make a blanket statement and say a player has 6 titles and leave it at that. I'm in NO way going to compare Cousy to Horry but if we were comparing on that basis one can argue that Horry was an elite player in his time. I know Cousy has all the other accolades that Horry does not but when debating the greatest players of all time we have to value quality, worth and competition when trying to gauge which player is better than which.

I am not downplaying what Cousy did but one would be remiss if he mentioned Cousy's accomplishments and not mention the fact that he was the only player of his calibre at his position, not because he was an amazingly spectacular once is a lifetime kind of player but because the position was watered down.

You mentioned the point of talent being concentrated since there were less teams. An undisputed fact. However how many all time great talented players were there really? Did every team have 8 HOFers? Did any other team have 5? No. The Celtics were the greatest T.E.A.M. of that era with the best players (1 player was voted top 5 and 2 others debated in the top 30) and that is something which cannot be left out in debates such as these. They were just that good. I mean had Cousy been replaced by the 2nd best PG of his day his Celts teams could in all likeliness still hoist the title at season's end.

I am not trying to discredit his name, don't get me wrong but Cousy was a fortunate player in many ways. Had things been tougher for him (more competition, less help) he may not have even been considered top 40.

As for the Stockton going so early, that IMO was the biggest crime in this voting. I mean Stockton does have GREAT #s but Stock at 18 was way too early.

Swashcuff
08-18-2011, 06:51 PM
Because he changed the game and was light years ahead of his competition? :shrug:

So was Dolph Schayes? :shrug:

Before Russell and Petit came around and after Mikan he held the all time rebounding and points records. The first forward to do so. He too revolutionized the game, he even led the Syracuse Nationals to a title as their Best Player and beating Cousy's Celts (without Russell) along the way and convincingly so as well.

By that reasoning Adolph should be right up there too not so?

Swashcuff
08-18-2011, 06:53 PM
Going over Pippen's career a bit in comparison to the 3 players who I was pondering here and he has just joined Baylor, Wade, Havlicek in who I'd be choosing here on out.

pd7631
08-18-2011, 07:09 PM
NBA MVP (shortest player ever to win it)
Rookie of the Year
11x All Star
4x Scoring Champ
3x 1st Team All NBA
3x 2nd Team All NBA
1x 3rd Team All NBA

2nd All Time in Playoff Scoring Average (MJ #1)

One of only 2 guys in Playoff history to drop 50+ points twice in the same series (MJ being the other)

Most consecutive seasons leading the league in steals

One of 4 players to lead the league in steals 3 times

Most steals in a Playoff game

Most consecutive 40+ point games as a rookie

One of only 2 players to lead the league in steals and scoring...done twice (MJ being the other, did it 3 times)

Carried the 2001 76ers on his back to the Finals

dev0
08-18-2011, 07:20 PM
the people are saying Hondo, but we all know Pippen was the better all-around player. Forget about Jordan's shadow it's clouding your minds!

naps
08-18-2011, 07:26 PM
Dwyane Wade.

JordansBulls
08-18-2011, 08:22 PM
Dwyane Wade.

Honestly I regret my vote, I think it is between Havlicek, Barry and Wade here.

Swashcuff
08-18-2011, 08:35 PM
Honestly I regret my vote, I think it is between Havlicek, Barry and Wade here.

What are your thoughts on Pippen? Is his lack of leading his team to the promise land hurting him in your opinion?

JoeyDubb23
08-18-2011, 08:40 PM
Damn Pistol Pete cant get no love

KnicksorBust
08-18-2011, 11:41 PM
Obviously he's being considered because we're talking about him. But you're just looking at his accomplishments and assuming he's the best because of them. But how about comparing his stats/accolades to those of Havlicek, Elgin Baylor and Pippen?

Pippen and Havlicek have just as many rings (more for Hondo) and Pippen is known as one of the greatest wing defenders in history. Havlicek is obviously one of the greatest guard defenders in history.

So why is Cousy better?

If I was starting a team, I'd take all three of those guys before Cousy. However to me that's not fair and that's not what this is about. It's impossible to truly translate a 50/60s star into the modern game. The game has changed from the invention of the shot clock, to the 3pt line, to the hand check rules, etc. It's transformed in both style and production.

That's why I look at the players peak, his longevity, his accomplishments, his success in the postseason (which holds a lot of weight for me), and compare it to the other players of his era. Cousy comes up aces in all those categories. The only person I'd consider stacks up to his full resume is Hondo but if we've already put Stockton, Mikan, and Pettit then Cousy has to be coming up damn soon on the queue b/c his generation is being represented and his position is being represnted.

KnicksorBust
08-18-2011, 11:46 PM
I'm confident I'll get through to you but you skin is tough.

If there is limited competition at your position and you are an elite player who is able to stay healthy chances are you'll find yourself on quite a few 1st teams.

Cousy had the fortune of playing in a league where he didn't have much competition at the position in which he played so IMO the All NBA first Team accomplishments are indeed quite overrated. As I said before you have to put each and every accomplishment into perspective.

I am in no way trying to diminish his titles but bro c'mon you have to put them into context. You can't just make a blanket statement and say a player has 6 titles and leave it at that. I'm in NO way going to compare Cousy to Horry but if we were comparing on that basis one can argue that Horry was an elite player in his time. I know Cousy has all the other accolades that Horry does not but when debating the greatest players of all time we have to value quality, worth and competition when trying to gauge which player is better than which.

I am not downplaying what Cousy did but one would be remiss if he mentioned Cousy's accomplishments and not mention the fact that he was the only player of his calibre at his position, not because he was an amazingly spectacular once is a lifetime kind of player but because the position was watered down.

You mentioned the point of talent being concentrated since there were less teams. An undisputed fact. However how many all time great talented players were there really? Did every team have 8 HOFers? Did any other team have 5? No. The Celtics were the greatest T.E.A.M. of that era with the best players (1 player was voted top 5 and 2 others debated in the top 30) and that is something which cannot be left out in debates such as these. They were just that good. I mean had Cousy been replaced by the 2nd best PG of his day his Celts teams could in all likeliness still hoist the title at season's end.

I am not trying to discredit his name, don't get me wrong but Cousy was a fortunate player in many ways. Had things been tougher for him (more competition, less help) he may not have even been considered top 40.

As for the Stockton going so early, that IMO was the biggest crime in this voting. I mean Stockton does have GREAT #s but Stock at 18 was way too early.

I get your point with the whole Dwight Howard comparison from before. How many all-nba 1st teams would Dwight have if this was the 90s and there was Shaq/Ewing/Hakeem/Zo/Robinson/etc.? The only thing I keep coming back to is that he didn't just win assist titles. He was winning every year by a mile. Great PGs make lives so much easier for their teammates. I mean look at Nash. He still had Phoenix as a top 10 effeciency team with guys like Jared Dudley, Jodie Meeks, Frye, and Gortat starting alongside him.

The one interesting thing about your post is you think Stockton going at #18 was criminal so in that respect we're in totally different boats. If you think Stockton went too soon then I totally understand why you think Cousy is a reach here as well.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-19-2011, 12:40 AM
If I was starting a team, I'd take all three of those guys before Cousy. However to me that's not fair and that's not what this is about. It's impossible to truly translate a 50/60s star into the modern game. The game has changed from the invention of the shot clock, to the 3pt line, to the hand check rules, etc. It's transformed in both style and production.

That's why I look at the players peak, his longevity, his accomplishments, his success in the postseason (which holds a lot of weight for me), and compare it to the other players of his era. Cousy comes up aces in all those categories. The only person I'd consider stacks up to his full resume is Hondo but if we've already put Stockton, Mikan, and Pettit then Cousy has to be coming up damn soon on the queue b/c his generation is being represented and his position is being represnted.

I suppose based on the way the list has gone, Cousy has a good case. But your first sentence really is where I'm at and the reason I wouldn't take him here. Although, I'm not unwilling to consider dominance relative to peers. I do need to do some more research on Cousy though. I'll get back to you on that. Although at first glance, I do think you're exaggerating his dominance.

But a lot of us thought that Mikan going this high was ridiculous and again, gets back to the point in your first sentence. Same sort of goes for Stockton, who I thought was too high too (although I love his ability as a passer).

Swashcuff
08-19-2011, 01:03 AM
I get your point with the whole Dwight Howard comparison from before. How many all-nba 1st teams would Dwight have if this was the 90s and there was Shaq/Ewing/Hakeem/Zo/Robinson/etc.? The only thing I keep coming back to is that he didn't just win assist titles. He was winning every year by a mile. Great PGs make lives so much easier for their teammates. I mean look at Nash. He still had Phoenix as a top 10 effeciency team with guys like Jared Dudley, Jodie Meeks, Frye, and Gortat starting alongside him.

Meeks played for my 76ers... :p

Seriously now. I'm not sure as to what you're asking me though on Dwight because my answer to that question would be 0. However then I'd pose something like how many 1st team nods Cousy would have gotten in that very era even (kind of pointless seeing that its a totally different game though).

YES Cousy was leading the league in assists by a considerable margin but the guys who were 2nd to him names are Andy Phillip, Dick McGuire, Jack George, Jack McMahon and Guy Rodgers. These guys aren't exactly what we'd call the greatest PGs of all time. I have to admit that other than their statistical evidence and their biography's I don't really know much of any of these players. I have not read enough articles or seen any documentaries or anything of the sort so my knowledge on all of those players are limited to mainly stats.

Mainly my point is is that he dominated at the position because of the fact that there was a lack of competition. I think I made that clear before however. It's not hard to dominate a position when you are an all time great talent and your "peers" are simply quality players and really nothing that special. That is the point of my Dwight reference.


The one interesting thing about your post is you think Stockton going at #18 was criminal so in that respect we're in totally different boats. If you think Stockton went too soon then I totally understand why you think Cousy is a reach here as well.

I am not the only one who thought that Stockton went too high. Stockton was a great and dominant player at his position and IMO the 2nd greatest natural PG of all time. I also think he's extremely underrated/under-appreciated however. Stockton's #s are amazing especially his passing and offensive (shooting wise) efficiency. However all that aside he was not able to have any sort of success while alongside a top 15 player.

While he was a top tier PG he was never a top tier player in the league. He only made 2 All NBA First Teams and on top of that is 72nd all time in MVP award shares and finished no higher than 7th in any season. Cousy in comparison is 34th all time lead the league one season and finished in the top 5 four times.

I take dominance of an era into consideration just as much as the next guy but that has to but put into context with an adequate comparative analysis of that player's competition and his dominance of said competition.

Stockton at 18 ahead of Petit, KG, James etc is a bit too high IMO.

MTar786
08-19-2011, 07:35 AM
nominate dennis rodman. the guy has the best reb rate of all time. is tactics were unbelievably affective against other players. he could guard players from mj to shaq. one of the best defenders ever.. he might be the 49th or 50th best ever lol

JordansBulls
08-19-2011, 12:40 PM
nominate dennis rodman. the guy has the best reb rate of all time. is tactics were unbelievably affective against other players. he could guard players from mj to shaq. one of the best defenders ever.. he might be the 49th or 50th best ever lol

There is no way Rodman deserves to be in the top 50 when you have guys who were the best players on teams and had much greater primes not nominated yet such as Alonzo Mourning, Shawn Kemp, Mitch Richmond, Nate Thurmond, Dolph Schayes, Jerry Lucas, Dave DeBusschere, Kevin Mchale, etc
Rodman was never better than the 3rd best on any team he was on.

ShakeN'Bake
08-19-2011, 01:07 PM
Its between Hondo and Baylor for me here.

I think I am going to have to go with Hondo.

Nominate: Pistol Pete. I know he doesn't have a lot of accolades but I feel like he atleast deserves to be in the poll.

DR_1
08-19-2011, 03:32 PM
Baylor - he was great at everything. Pippin next.

Lakersfan2483
08-19-2011, 10:41 PM
Elgin Baylor. Perennial all star. Big time player (still holds the record for most pts. scored in a single finals game with 61 pts). Rookie of the Year, 11 time all star, no. 4 all time with 87 regular season 40 point games, scored over 23,149 pts, 11, 463 rebs, ranked 6th all time in nba finals scoring. Ranks 24th all time in efficiency rating.