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UKblazers
08-16-2011, 05:32 AM
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/08/15/top-100-nba-players-nos-11-20/

Currently on the players 11-20
20.Carmelo
19.Amare
18.Steve Nash
17.Garnett
16.Ginobili
15.Paul Pierce
14.Blake Griffin
13.Randolph
12.Westbrook
11.Aldridge

Provides in depth breakdown and reasoning for all the rankings, top 10 should be up later today.
EDIT: Top 10 Now up
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/08/16/top-100-nba-players-nos-1-10/

stawka
08-16-2011, 06:36 AM
I think melo is WAY too low, and I've never been and never will be a fan of his. He's better than almost all of those guys IMO

faridk89
08-16-2011, 07:02 AM
I think melo is WAY too low, and I've never been and never will be a fan of his. He's better than almost all of those guys IMO

agreed I rather have melo on my team than most of the guys below him

Khalifa21
08-16-2011, 07:30 AM
I'm going to sound like the biggest homer but all those guys above Melo and Stat is laughable... KG? Ginobili? Nash? Pierce?

UKblazers
08-16-2011, 07:37 AM
I'm going to sound like the biggest homer but all those guys above Melo and Stat is laughable... KG? Ginobili? Nash? Pierce?

What part of his analysis of melo and Amare did you disagree with?,I mean on the surface I would agree with you but he does make valid points for his rankings.

Khalifa21
08-16-2011, 07:48 AM
What part of his analysis of melo and Amare did you disagree with?,I mean on the surface I would agree with you but he does make valid points for his rankings.

I'll admit I haven't actually read through his analysis yet, but for the pure factor of age I disagree with his rankings. KG? Pierce? Nash? Ginobili? All in the twilight of their career's and nothing compared to their primes and all taken over a prime Melo and Stat? Not for me...

millerandco
08-16-2011, 08:17 AM
good article....but there is NO WAY russell westbrook should even be in the top 20. i love his game but he isn't a top 20 player yet

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 08:41 AM
I'm going to sound like the biggest homer but all those guys above Melo and Stat is laughable... KG? Ginobili? Nash? Pierce?

Bro there is nothing homer about it. I read that article on my phone yesterday and laughed. That utterly ridiculous.

nycsports2
08-16-2011, 08:49 AM
lol @ melo and stat being out of the top 15(top 10 imo)

xSolidx
08-16-2011, 08:55 AM
Carmelo at the very least falls between the 9-12 range. I personally would put him 9, but yea 20 is ridiculous.

UKblazers
08-16-2011, 09:03 AM
To everyone arguing over Melo's ranking what in particular of the anaylsis do you disagree with(if you even read it) ? Do you feel that his struggles on defense are overblown or that denver's improved play without him was down to luck. Not hating on your opinion just curious.

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 09:12 AM
To everyone arguing over Melo's ranking what in particular of the anaylsis do you disagree with(if you even read it) ? Do you feel that his struggles on defense are overblown or that denver's improved play without him was down to luck. Not hating on your opinion just curious.

Did you see any mention in that entire analysis of Melo being clutch? No I didn't. However he spoke to Manu's "clutchness", something that isn't on Melo's level.

IMO from just reading quickly the writer takes a certain likeness to certain players while chastising others. He chastises Melo for his D but not a single mention of Nash's D.

I mean he has an agenda if you ask me. Different strokes for different folks. I don't think Melo or Stoudemire are certain top 10 maybe borderline and certainly top 15, but based on his analysis he was pretty biased if you ask me. I'll take a read through the earlier rankings as well to see if I can see a trend.

Green_Monster
08-16-2011, 09:14 AM
Notice how all the people complaining about Melo are Knicks fans?

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 09:19 AM
Notice how all the people complaining about Melo are Knicks fans?

I am not a Knicks fan and I am going to be complaining more than damn near all of them because of the mere fact that the writer was being subjective.

Matter of a fact Knicks fans often accuse me of being a Melo hater because I say he doesn't belong in the top 10.

You can't have different strokes for different folks your reasoning should be solid across the board for all players. That was not exhibited in his rankings.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 09:19 AM
It's weird, because I didn't have many complaints from 21-100. But the same writer completely screwed up 11-20. Aldridge being #11? Really? He didn't even make the all star team (even if you feel he was robbed, its a fact). I am very hard on Melo, but #20???? This portion is jacked up.

Corey
08-16-2011, 09:20 AM
Aldridge and Griffin are way too high.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 09:21 AM
Melo is a top 9-12 player. There is no way he should have been listed #20 on any list that claims itself to be subjective. Aldridge is too high, Griffin is too high, shoot, I would re-do this entire 10 players differently. And Love would move into the top 20 in my list.

pacofunk64
08-16-2011, 09:26 AM
The 11-20 rankings are pretty jacked up...you don't have to read an article to figure that out. For sure Melo is a top 15 guy.

UKblazers
08-16-2011, 09:28 AM
Melo is a top 9-12 player. There is no way he should have been listed #20 on any list that claims itself to be subjective. Aldridge is too high, Griffin is too high, shoot, I would re-do this entire 10 players differently. And Love would move into the top 20 in my list.

I can definitely see your point on Aldridge even i think its too high but he's a better overall player than Love, every time they matched up LA dominated him. I think people underestimate how bad Love is on defense and a lot of the t wolves struggles in close games are due to the fact you can just dump it into the post for Love like you can with other fowards. Just my opinion.

kdspurman
08-16-2011, 09:29 AM
Did you see any mention in that entire analysis of Melo being clutch? No I didn't. However he spoke to Manu's "clutchness", something that isn't on Melo's level.

IMO from just reading quickly the writer takes a certain likeness to certain players while chastising others. He chastises Melo for his D but not a single mention of Nash's D.

I mean he has an agenda if you ask me. Different strokes for different folks. I don't think Melo or Stoudemire are certain top 10 maybe borderline and certainly top 15, but based on his analysis he was pretty biased if you ask me. I'll take a read through the earlier rankings as well to see if I can see a trend.

Good point on not mentioning Nash's def but mentions Melo's. Definitely a little shady. However i disagree with you on Manu. I think Manu's clutchness is very much on Melo's level maybe even more. He's made countless big plays, steals, blocks, big shots, kick out passes etc... He is a top clutch performer in the game to be honest. Especially a few years back. But He's still doing it now.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 09:38 AM
I can definitely see your point on Aldridge even i think its too high but he's a better overall player than Love, every time they matched up LA dominated him. I think people underestimate how bad Love is on defense and a lot of the t wolves struggles in close games are due to the fact you can just dump it into the post for Love like you can with other fowards. Just my opinion.

I never brought them up in comparison, I have already spent enough time on that. I am simply saying, LaMarcus is too high, and Love is too low. They are different players man. LA is a better low post player, but I don't see him getting 20 boards on consecutive nights while knocking down bombs. Just different players, and I will take the 22 year old who goes for 20-15-80-40. And I am sure you will take LA, and there sure as hell isn't anything wrong with that, he is a great player

Slimsim
08-16-2011, 09:40 AM
I am not a Knicks fan and I am going to be complaining more than damn near all of them because of the mere fact that the writer was being subjective.

Matter of a fact Knicks fans often accuse me of being a Melo hater because I say he doesn't belong in the top 10.

You can't have different strokes for different folks your reasoning should be solid across the board for all players. That was not exhibited in his rankings.

Wow the respect i have for this poster just Skyrocket threw the roof.

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 09:41 AM
Good point on not mentioning Nash's def but mentions Melo's. Definitely a little shady. However i disagree with you on Manu. I think Manu's clutchness is very much on Melo's level maybe even more. He's made countless big plays, steals, blocks, big shots, kick out passes etc... He is a top clutch performer in the game to be honest. Especially a few years back. But He's still doing it now.

IMO as of today if we are speaking of a player who can/will take over a close game in the last 2 minutes or some and will his team to victory I'll take Melo over just about anyone. In terms of game winning shots Manu doesn't stack up to Melo in that regard.

I do however agree with looking at clutch holistically and not just shooting but defense, passing rebounding etc but that is the one time one can say Melo steps up his D and gets even more assertive on the glass. He's a better all round player late IMO.

UKblazers
08-16-2011, 09:43 AM
I never brought them up in comparison, I have already spent enough time on that. I am simply saying, LaMarcus is too high, and Love is too low. They are different players man. LA is a better low post player, but I don't see him getting 20 boards on consecutive nights while knocking down bombs. Just different players, and I will take the 22 year old who goes for 20-15-80-40. And I am sure you will take LA, and there sure as hell isn't anything wrong with that, he is a great player

Oh i misunderstood what you were saying, and i can definitely see the arguement made for love,it comes down to what you prefer in a player once you enter the top 25-10 players.

wjmoffatt
08-16-2011, 09:59 AM
I think melo is WAY too low, and I've never been and never will be a fan of his. He's better than almost all of those guys IMO

Doesn't play Defense! But yes his still too low, wouldn't put him ahead of Westbrook or Aldridge though

LakersIn5
08-16-2011, 10:03 AM
melo is NO DOUBT A TOP 12 player

Duddy
08-16-2011, 10:28 AM
This ranking is one of the worst I've seen in a while. U sure this isn't Bleacher Report? Lol

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-16-2011, 10:30 AM
I'd put melo around 15th, 20th is too low.

kozelkid
08-16-2011, 10:36 AM
It's weird, because I didn't have many complaints from 21-100. But the same writer completely screwed up 11-20. Aldridge being #11? Really? He didn't even make the all star team (even if you feel he was robbed, its a fact). I am very hard on Melo, but #20???? This portion is jacked up.

Gay at #28 really irked me... And KG is NOT a top 20 player anymore. Guys like Love, Bosh, and Melo are definitely better.

Sly Guy
08-16-2011, 10:45 AM
I'm going to sound like the biggest homer but all those guys above Melo and Stat is laughable... KG? Ginobili? Nash? Pierce?

I agree. Well, maybe not in the case of Nash. But I do see lots of holes in this list.....Westbrook is not a top 15 player, for example.

heyman321
08-16-2011, 10:50 AM
Did you see any mention in that entire analysis of Melo being clutch? No I didn't. However he spoke to Manu's "clutchness", something that isn't on Melo's level.

IMO from just reading quickly the writer takes a certain likeness to certain players while chastising others. He chastises Melo for his D but not a single mention of Nash's D.

I mean he has an agenda if you ask me. Different strokes for different folks. I don't think Melo or Stoudemire are certain top 10 maybe borderline and certainly top 15, but based on his analysis he was pretty biased if you ask me. I'll take a read through the earlier rankings as well to see if I can see a trend.

Lol what? He clearly mentions Nash's terrible D. Read the article again. He says afterwards though that Nash is able to make any offense better, which is true.

KnicksorBust
08-16-2011, 10:50 AM
I read it and I think it's pretty spot on. This guy watched games, studied synergy, looked all the advanced statistics and came up with a great list. He values defense and offensive effeciency.

I've yet to see any poster actually take a player and prove he's in the wrong spot. "Player X is WAY too high." "Player Z is WAY too low." Terrible posts without any actual support.

justinnum1
08-16-2011, 10:54 AM
melo and amare should be 14 and 15

kozelkid
08-16-2011, 10:54 AM
I read it and I think it's pretty spot on. This guy watched games, studied synergy, looked all the advanced statistics and came up with a great list. He values defense and offensive effeciency.

I've yet to see any poster actually take a player and prove he's in the wrong spot. "Player X is WAY too high." "Player Z is WAY too low." Terrible posts without any actual support.

Okay, fine.

Rudy Gay is way too high compared to guys like Martin, Iguodala, Wallace, Granger, Deng, and Josh Smith.

Deng, Iguodala, Smith, Granger and Wallace are far superior defenders and rebounders and are more efficient.

Whereas Martin is just VASTLY more efficient.

This is just the cut and dry analysis without actually spitting out stats because I've been involved in this annoying argument WAY too many times. More than anything, Gay does not deserve to be above any of those guys and there is plenty of proof in the sf ranking we did this year.

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 10:56 AM
I'd put melo around 15th, 20th is too low.

And you are seen as a Melo hater too by Knicks fans

Hellcrooner
08-16-2011, 10:56 AM
since i assume he is not leaving him out of top 100........

i guess writer has been unafected by playoffs this year and has not bought into the "soft" haterade :p

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 10:58 AM
Lol what? He clearly mentions Nash's terrible D. Read the article again. He says afterwards though that Nash is able to make any offense better, which is true.

Ok I was wrong, either way he did not fault Nash for his D while stating that a main reason why Melo was at 20 was because he was a poor defensive player.

Hellcrooner
08-16-2011, 11:01 AM
btw griffin does not belong in the top 20 YET ( id rather have love than him) and Fat randolph does not belong anywhere in the top 20....id say 30 neither.

KnicksorBust
08-16-2011, 11:03 AM
Okay, fine.

Rudy Gay is way too high compared to guys like Martin, Iguodala, Wallace, Granger, Deng, and Josh Smith.

Deng, Iguodala, Smith, Granger and Wallace are far superior defenders and rebounders and are more efficient.

Whereas Martin is just VASTLY more efficient.

This is just the cut and dry analysis without actually spitting out stats because I've been involved in this annoying argument WAY too many times. More than anything, Gay does not deserve to be above any of those guys and there is plenty of proof in the sf ranking we did this year.

That's because you must not have watched Rudy Gay last season. He took a big step forward last year both in terms of offensive effeciency and on the defensive end. For example, Gay outperformed Gerald Wallace in basically every per game statistic and advanced metric while handling a higher usage rate of his teams possessions.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=gayru01&y1=2011&p2=wallage01&y2=2011

UKblazers
08-16-2011, 11:04 AM
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/08/16/top-100-nba-players-nos-1-10/

Top 10 now up

KnicksorBust
08-16-2011, 11:07 AM
Ok I was wrong, either way he did not fault Nash for his D while stating that a main reason why Melo was at 20 was because he was a poor defensive player.

They are both bad on Defense but Nash at least makes an attempt to be in the right spots and has good numbers on synergy. Also Nash's impact on an offense is so much more valuable than Carmelo. He's one of the most effecient shooters of all-time and he has been the starting PG on top 2 offenses (in terms of points per possession) for the last decade. His ability to create for teammates while still being a threat offensively (sorry Rondo) keeps him in the top 20.

Hellcrooner
08-16-2011, 11:07 AM
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/08/16/top-100-nba-players-nos-1-10/

Top 10 now up

Bulls fans bout to be enraged in 3 , 2, 1


And also, last year Dirk was the best player.....just saying.

Dr.J>YOU
08-16-2011, 11:10 AM
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/08/16/top-100-nba-players-nos-1-10/

Top 10 now up

Bad list. Lebron is sooo hyped that it isn't even funny. If he is the best then how the **** can he not win with another top 3 player on his team? Dude has always been overrated despite not even being able to win with a prime Shaquille.

kozelkid
08-16-2011, 11:11 AM
That's because you must not have watched Rudy Gay last season. He took a big step forward last year both in terms of offensive effeciency and on the defensive end. For example, Gay outperformed Gerald Wallace in basically every per game statistic and advanced metric while handling a higher usage rate of his teams possessions.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=gayru01&y1=2011&p2=wallage01&y2=2011

Only while Wallace was a Bobcat. As a trailblazer he played much more like last season. And that's only ONE player of all the guys I listed. I'm sorry but there is no way you can tell me that Gay is better than all of them.

Swash is right, this dude has an agenda. He uses synergy and advanced stats which is nice. But he changes his weight on certain categories depending on certain players. We all are guilty of it from time to time, particularly with our favorite teams. However, this list has issues.

UKblazers
08-16-2011, 11:12 AM
Bad list. Lebron is sooo hyped that it isn't even funny. If he is the best then how the **** can he not win with another top 3 player on his team? Dude has always been overrated despite not even being able to win with a prime Shaquille.

HUH?!?! Prime Shaq....really ?

kozelkid
08-16-2011, 11:12 AM
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/08/16/top-100-nba-players-nos-1-10/

Top 10 now up

What a load of crap. D-Will over Durant AND Rose? D-Rose's third season was better than ANY season D-Will EVER had. Fact. Durant is also better than Kobe at this point.

KnicksorBust
08-16-2011, 11:15 AM
Only while Wallace was a Bobcat. As a trailblazer he played much more like last season. And that's only ONE player of all the guys I listed. I'm sorry but there is no way you can tell me that Gay is better than all of them.

Swash is right, this dude has an agenda. He uses synergy and advanced stats which is nice. But he changes his weight on certain categories depending on certain players. We all are guilty of it from time to time, particularly with our favorite teams. However, this list has issues.

Well obviously I'm not going to argue all 5 when you still haven't proved one.

kozelkid
08-16-2011, 11:18 AM
Well obviously I'm not going to argue all 5 when you still haven't proved one.

Luol Deng.

More efficient (higher o-rating, better ts%)

Better defender by ****ing far.


Andre Iguodala.

More efficient (higher o-rating)

Better defender by ****ing far.

Better ballhandler by ****ing far (ridiculous A/TO ratio whereas Gay's is VERY mediocre and used to be one of the worst til this season)

Your turn.

EDIT:

I'm gonna go ahead and piggyback on some of Swash's posts back in the top 10 sf threads, cause again, i have no desire going in depth on this topic for the 57th time.


I got Andre Iguodala here and this is why

Basic stats as compared to the next 5 best players IMO
Code:
Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Luol Deng 2010-11 25 82 82 39.1 6.5 14.1 .460 1.4 4.1 .345 3.1 4.1 .753 1.4 4.4 5.8 2.8 1.0 0.6 1.9 2.0 17.4
Rudy Gay 2010-11 24 54 54 39.9 7.6 16.1 .471 1.1 2.7 .396 3.6 4.5 .805 1.5 4.7 6.2 2.8 1.7 1.1 2.5 2.4 19.8
Danny Granger 2010-11 27 79 79 35.0 6.8 15.9 .425 2.0 5.2 .386 5.0 5.9 .848 1.1 4.3 5.4 2.6 1.1 0.8 2.6 2.7 20.5
A Iguodala 2010-11 27 67 67 36.9 5.0 11.3 .445 0.9 2.7 .337 3.1 4.5 .693 0.9 4.9 5.8 6.3 1.5 0.6 2.1 1.6 14.1
G Wallace 2010-11 28 71 63 37.9 5.4 12.0 .454 0.9 2.6 .333 3.9 5.3 .746 1.6 6.5 8.0 2.4 1.5 0.9 2.1 2.6 15.7
While Iggy doesn't have the flashiest #s and clearly isn't the best scorer of the bunch his play making ability makes up for his lack of offensive production in terms of scoring.

Advanced
Code:
Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
Luol Deng 2010-11 25 82 3208 15.5 .549 .510 4.4 12.8 8.7 11.9 1.3 1.1 10.7 20.9 111 102 4.7 5.2 9.9 0.149
Rudy Gay 2010-11 24 54 2152 17.8 .548 .503 4.5 14.2 9.3 11.6 2.2 2.2 12.2 23.3 108 105 2.7 2.8 5.5 0.123
Danny Granger 2010-11 27 79 2763 17.8 .554 .487 3.5 13.5 8.5 13.0 1.6 1.6 12.3 26.7 107 106 3.7 3.2 6.9 0.120
A Iguodala 2010-11 27 67 2469 17.3 .530 .486 2.8 15.2 9.0 26.4 2.1 1.2 13.4 19.2 110 104 3.3 3.4 6.7 0.130
G Wallace 2010-11 28 71 2693 16.2 .548 .490 4.9 21.0 12.8 10.9 2.1 1.9 13.0 20.3 107 105 2.6 3.6 6.2 0.111
In terms of WS/48 Iggy ranks 2nd only to Deng (a huge part of Deng's being better than Iggy's is the fact that he plays for a better defensive and offensive team take away that and they'd be equals) while Iggy is right up there with Gay and Granger in PER he betters Wallace and Deng.

Again this shows how complete a player Iggy really is.

Statistical +/-
Code:
Player G Min OSPM DSPM SPM
Andre Iguodala 67 2469 1.39 1.65 3.04
Danny Granger 79 2763 2.59 0.04 2.63
Gerald Wallace 71 2693 0.21 2.33 2.53
Rudy Gay 54 2152 1.44 0.91 2.35
Luol Deng 82 3208 1.14 0.55 1.60
In terms of SPM Iggy ranks #1, that's really no surprise see that he is the most valuable two way player of the bunch. He impacts his team's overall effectiveness/efficient more than any other SF left on the board. These are some of the things that don't show up in the box score or among more common advanced stats.

His balance between OSPM (offenseive statistical +/-) and DSPM (defensive statistical +/-) is by far better than anyone else proving again his worth as a two way player being better that that of the other guys on here.

Code:
Player tm Min Eff% eWins e484
Luol Deng Chi 39 .540 8.5 1.28
Danny Granger Ind 35 .544 8.4 1.47
Andre Iguodala Phi 37 .520 7.0 1.38
In terms of eWins and e484 (win-producing) rate (similar to WS/48) Granger is arguably the most valuable. Deng however benefited in terms of eWins because of the fact that he played more minutes in more games than both Iggy and Granger. Iggy's e484 (which I view as a better metric than eWins to gauge a player's worth) is better than that of Deng and on that basis could be argued as better overall.

Note: Wallace and Gay both did not rank in the top 50 in the league so I was unable to get their results.

Lastly 82games.com Simple Rating System and Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production (for those who may want to argue that Deng or Wallace is better defensive that Iggy despite the evidence already posted)
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/x...ll/2011SFs.jpg

In terms of Simple Rating Iggy is unquestionably the best of the bunch, proving his overall value to his team when he's on the floor to be higher than that of any other player on the poll.

As for Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production Iggy features the best #s not only of the players left but of all SFs this past season (better than LeBron even). I see no argument for any SF being more valuable on defense than Andre Iguodala.

All and all Iggy is the most valuable two way player of all the players left. He may not be the scorer that the other players are but his play-making ability makes up for that gap IMO.

There is a reason why he's the only one of the players left that took home any hardware this off season (All NBA Defensive 2nd Team which should have been a first team).

This is for Iggy.


Statistical +/-
Code:
Player G Min OSPM DSPM SPM
Danny Granger 79 2763 2.59 0.04 2.63
Gerald Wallace 71 2693 0.21 2.33 2.53
Rudy Gay 54 2152 1.44 0.91 2.35
Luol Deng 82 3208 1.14 0.55 1.60
Granger ranks #1 of all the guys left on the list in terms of SPM and OSPM. It just goes to so his offensive value to his team when he's on the floor and why he impacts his team offense more than Gay, Deng or Wallace.

eWins and eWin/484
Code:
Player tm Min Eff% eWins e484
Luol Deng Chi 39 .540 8.5 1.28
Danny Granger Ind 35 .544 8.4 1.47
As I said in the thread before because Gay and Wallace were not ranked in the top 10 among the league leaders in eWins I was not able to access their data. While eWins are good the only reason Deng ended with more than Granger was because of the fact that he played in 3 less games than Luol.

Advanced
Code:
Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
Luol Deng 2010-11 25 82 3208 15.5 .549 .510 4.4 12.8 8.7 11.9 1.3 1.1 10.7 20.9 111 102 4.7 5.2 9.9 0.149
Rudy Gay 2010-11 24 54 2152 17.8 .548 .503 4.5 14.2 9.3 11.6 2.2 2.2 12.2 23.3 108 105 2.7 2.8 5.5 0.123
Danny Granger 2010-11 27 79 2763 17.8 .554 .487 3.5 13.5 8.5 13.0 1.6 1.6 12.3 26.7 107 106 3.7 3.2 6.9 0.120
G Wallace 2010-11 28 71 2693 16.2 .548 .490 4.9 21.0 12.8 10.9 2.1 1.9 13.0 20.3 107 105 2.6 3.6 6.2 0.111
Granger finished with the best TS% of the bunch though in terms of WS/48 he isn't up there with Deng and slightly behind Rudy (fact that the Grizz ORtg and DRtg are better than the Pacers has a role to play in this). In terms of PER well that's an obvious wash in terms of Gay and Granger with Deng being last among the 4.

As far as overall offensive production relative to team offense I'll use a stat that I used to support my case for Iggy. I shall now use it in support of Granger being the more complete and important offensive player I'll just compare Granger and Deng since I don't think anyone really thinks Deng or Wallace does more for their team offensively than Gay and Granger.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums...&postcount=143

Pts + Assists
Code:
Player Pts+Ast %Team Pts
Danny Granger 26.2 26.5%
Rudy Gay 26.0 26.0%
Essentially they both bring the same amount of overall offense to their respective teams since the difference is marginal. Obviously this isn't accurate however I used their respective team's PPG overall and Rudy did miss 28 games and Granger 3 so their team PPG average were been different.

I really don't have the time to do the research to see how much the Grizz averaged when he was in the line-up. However the Grizzlies did after all average less points per game when Gay went down so I am actually being generous by judging him based on his team's overall PPG at season's end.


Granger.

Again, thank you Swash for your very well detailed posts. :laugh2:

I can do the same for Deng on my own if you want that as well, Knicksorbust.

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 11:21 AM
I read it and I think it's pretty spot on. This guy watched games, studied synergy, looked all the advanced statistics and came up with a great list. He values defense and offensive effeciency.

I've yet to see any poster actually take a player and prove he's in the wrong spot. "Player X is WAY too high." "Player Z is WAY too low." Terrible posts without any actual support.

Tell me something

Why is Blake Griffin so based based on potential?

Terrible posts? The writer used different reasonings for different players. Blake was ranked that high due to the fact that his potential is astronomical. He based his rankings of Blake based on what he'll give us one year from now. He came to that conclusion by stating facts of last season but why not do the same for Kevin Love?

What he did was state why state the strength's of Player X and the Weaknesses of Player Z.

Basically the same reasons why he had Westbrook at #12 was the same reasons he has Melo at #20. Only difference in his argument is that Westbrook is an average defensive player for his position (then gave an excuse of young PGs not being good defensively) while Melo is sub par. Again for Westbrook he bases what his reasoning on future and not current.

He did his research and backed his opinion with facts, however the context seemed to be seriously lacking along with the fact that he was being biased IMO towards certain players.

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 11:21 AM
Notice how all the people complaining about Melo are Knicks fans?

Im not a knick fan at all, and Melo being at 20 is dumb

Corey
08-16-2011, 11:22 AM
Man, some people are really getting pissy because a writer has a different opinion than them.

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 11:28 AM
They are both bad on Defense but Nash at least makes an attempt to be in the right spots and has good numbers on synergy. Also Nash's impact on an offense is so much more valuable than Carmelo. He's one of the most effecient shooters of all-time and he has been the starting PG on top 2 offenses (in terms of points per possession) for the last decade. His ability to create for teammates while still being a threat offensively (sorry Rondo) keeps him in the top 20.

Tell me something do you have the synergy #s of Melo from the time he became a Knick?

In terms of DSPM tho Melo is still underwhelming he's still more valuable defensively than Nash. There is no doubt in my mind that despite Melo not being a decent defensive player he is still a better defender at the SF position than Nash is at the PG.

Nash is indeed overall more important to his team than Melo is to his and is a great player, I am not disputing that I am however disputing the writer's basis. He mentions player's youth and potential for growth as to why he put some of them so high in his ranking and then do the opposite for players such as Nash and Manu. It's really hard to understand IMO.

John Walls Era
08-16-2011, 11:30 AM
Its a good list. The guy did some homework and its no surprise that some people don't like it.


To say he’s an equally bad defender is both true and too general. As Sebastian Pruiti has pointed out, Synergy numbers have consistently painted Bargnani as a solid defender in the post and in one-on-one situations.

Seems Right to me, maybe I need to get Synergy...

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 11:30 AM
Luol Deng.

More efficient (higher o-rating, better ts%)

Better defender by ****ing far.


Andre Iguodala.

More efficient (higher o-rating)

Better defender by ****ing far.

Better ballhandler by ****ing far (ridiculous A/TO ratio whereas Gay's is VERY mediocre and used to be one of the worst til this season)

Your turn.

EDIT:

I'm gonna go ahead and piggyback on some of Swash's posts back in the top 10 sf threads, cause again, i have no desire going in depth on this topic for the 57th time.



This is for Iggy.

:)

You got to it before I did. IMO it's ridiculous based on production of last season to even say that Gay is better than Iggy. Gay is a better talent IMO and will be a better player but based on what we saw last season Gay is indeed NOT the #28 best player in the league.

KnicksorBust
08-16-2011, 11:31 AM
Luol Deng.

More efficient (higher o-rating, better ts%)

Better defender by ****ing far.


Andre Iguodala.

More efficient (higher o-rating)

Better defender by ****ing far.

Better ballhandler by ****ing far (ridiculous A/TO ratio whereas Gay's is VERY mediocre and used to be one of the worst til this season)

Your turn.

EDIT:

I'm gonna go ahead and piggyback on some of Swash's posts back in the top 10 sf threads, cause again, i have no desire going in depth on this topic for the 57th time.



This is for Iggy.

"Your turn." :laugh:

The list is not perfect but it's definately eye-opening for certain players that's why I wasn't going to let a bunch of ignorant posters derail a good article. I enjoyed the read. In regards to Deng and Gay you are right and I'd prefer to have Deng on my team. I'm just glad someone in here actually has stones to make an argument.

kozelkid
08-16-2011, 11:33 AM
:)

You got to it before I did. IMO it's ridiculous based on production of last season to even say that Gay is better than Iggy. Gay is a better talent IMO and will be a better player but based on what we saw last season Gay is indeed NOT the #28 best player in the league.

See, I don't know if I agree with bolded.

Could he? Sure. But I think he's too much of a bonehead to ever get it. Add to the fact that he plays for an organization with a very poor reputation and I don't see him getting much better than what we currently see. It's too bad given his talent. Memphis should have jumped on that Iggy rumor... although I'm sure you wouldn't have been much of a fan. :p

kozelkid
08-16-2011, 11:35 AM
"Your turn." :laugh:

The list is not perfect but it's definately eye-opening for certain players that's why I wasn't going to let a bunch of ignorant posters derail a good article. I enjoyed the read. In regards to Deng and Gay you are right and I'd prefer to have Deng on my team. I'm just glad someone in here actually has stones to make an argument.

Look, I'll give the writer credit, he used stats and definitely has a nice knowledge of a lot of tools to analyze players. It certainly beats most of the talking heads in ESPN who still think fg% is the way to go.

However, as Swash mentioned, he does have an agenda and it's kinda obvious imo. Whatever it may be, he's biased. Moreso than needed.

KnicksorBust
08-16-2011, 11:37 AM
Tell me something

Why is Blake Griffin so based based on potential?

Terrible posts? The writer used different reasonings for different players. Blake was ranked that high due to the fact that his potential is astronomical. He based his rankings of Blake based on what he'll give us one year from now. He came to that conclusion by stating facts of last season but why not do the same for Kevin Love?

What he did was state why state the strength's of Player X and the Weaknesses of Player Z.

Basically the same reasons why he had Westbrook at #12 was the same reasons he has Melo at #20. Only difference in his argument is that Westbrook is an average defensive player for his position (then gave an excuse of young PGs not being good defensively) while Melo is sub par. Again for Westbrook he bases what his reasoning on future and not current.

He did his research and backed his opinion with facts, however the context seemed to be seriously lacking along with the fact that he was being biased IMO towards certain players.

I don't blame him for going out on a limb with Blake. His combination of scoring/rebounding/passing for a rookie PF is virtually unheard of him. Love isn't as good defensively or at creating his own shot. I would easily take Griffin over Love on my team for next season.

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 11:40 AM
See, I don't know if I agree with bolded.

Could he? Sure. But I think he's too much of a bonehead to ever get it. Add to the fact that he plays for an organization with a very poor reputation and I don't see him getting much better than what we currently see. It's too bad given his talent. Memphis should have jumped on that Iggy rumor... although I'm sure you wouldn't have been much of a fan. :p

To me Iggy is what he is. He just needs to find his niche however to maximize on his skill set and I think his production would be even greater than at any time in his career. Rudy well he still has some room to grow. Gay needs to get his head right and get it together on D if he's going to be better than Iggy though.

I wasn't much of a fan of that Rudy rumour either to be honest, the only consolation however would have been the fact that we would have gotten a go to scorer who actually shows up in the clutch.

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 11:43 AM
I don't blame him for going out on a limb with Blake. His combination of scoring/rebounding/passing for a rookie PF is virtually unheard of him. Love isn't as good defensively or at creating his own shot. I would easily take Griffin over Love on my team for next season.

You and me both, I also don't blame him for that either. Blake is an extreme talent. However should he not hold the same basis across the board.

As I said before my issue is not so much the rankings (though I think Melo and Stat are too low) but rather the reasoning behind his choices. He used facts, used solid arguments and most importantly backed his opinion. He did a GREAT job of doing his homework a better job than I could ever do, BUT he was not consistent and that is where I see an issue.

KnicksorBust
08-16-2011, 11:47 AM
You and me both, I also don't blame him for that either. Blake is an extreme talent. However should he not hold the same basis across the board.

As I said before my issue is not so much the rankings (though I think Melo and Stat are too low) but rather the reasoning behind his choices. He used facts, used solid arguments and most importantly backed his opinion. He did a GREAT job of doing his homework a better job than I could ever do, BUT he was not consistent and that is where I see an issue.

That's fair. I think we can both agree that even if a ranking or two is off this NBA Forum would be a lot better off if people at least skipped his writeups. :)

Gators123
08-16-2011, 12:44 PM
How is a guy like Salmons on there but not Greg Monroe?


Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Greg Monroe 2010-11 20 80 2222 18.0 .575 .551 13.0 20.4 16.5 7.5 2.3 1.6 11.0 15.4 120 109 4.7 1.9 6.6 0.143
2 John Salmons 2010-11 31 73 2554 12.8 .510 .462 1.2 11.2 6.1 17.5 1.5 0.9 12.0 20.9 101 105 0.9 3.4 4.3 0.081

Chacarron
08-16-2011, 01:19 PM
Top 10 looks good to me.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 01:36 PM
Gay at #28 really irked me... And KG is NOT a top 20 player anymore. Guys like Love, Bosh, and Melo are definitely better.

Gay just missed a lot of time is why I would guess. KG is still living off name. You know that is the way it goes in sports. He is no longer a top 20 player, and I think the 3 you listed should indeed move ahead of him.

I had some gripes, but they don't start getting annoying to me until we hit those top 30. I mean, who cares if you think the #78 guy should actually be #74

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 01:45 PM
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/08/16/top-100-nba-players-nos-1-10/

Top 10 now up

eh, I don't have much gripe with that list honestly. I think Durant should be in Deron's spot, simply due to Deron's injuries hurting his numbers so much last year, but that is trivial.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 01:46 PM
Bad list. Lebron is sooo hyped that it isn't even funny. If he is the best then how the **** can he not win with another top 3 player on his team? Dude has always been overrated despite not even being able to win with a prime Shaquille.

you have got to be kidding, right?

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 01:47 PM
How is a guy like Salmons on there but not Greg Monroe?


Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Greg Monroe 2010-11 20 80 2222 18.0 .575 .551 13.0 20.4 16.5 7.5 2.3 1.6 11.0 15.4 120 109 4.7 1.9 6.6 0.143
2 John Salmons 2010-11 31 73 2554 12.8 .510 .462 1.2 11.2 6.1 17.5 1.5 0.9 12.0 20.9 101 105 0.9 3.4 4.3 0.081

How is Salmons ahead of Tony Allen?

NYKNYGNYY
08-16-2011, 01:48 PM
just gonna keep my mouth closed on this because im gonna be a "homer" if i say nething...smh

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 01:48 PM
Look, I'll give the writer credit, he used stats and definitely has a nice knowledge of a lot of tools to analyze players. It certainly beats most of the talking heads in ESPN who still think fg% is the way to go.

However, as Swash mentioned, he does have an agenda and it's kinda obvious imo. Whatever it may be, he's biased. Moreso than needed.

damn right he is biased--- he had Love outside the top 15 :)

Miltstar
08-16-2011, 01:49 PM
Nowitzki should be the clear cut #1

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 01:49 PM
just gonna keep my mouth closed on this because im gonna be a "homer" if i say nething...smh

Melo is too low. Even a harsh critic of Melo such as myself is saying that

Chill_Will_24
08-16-2011, 01:50 PM
I dont have any complaints on this list at all. Ive always said Melo is overrated. Top 20 is a very harsh considering who was ranked above him but its not like the analysis is way off. I can understand all the CHI and NY fans rioting but this list is very fair imho

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 01:51 PM
Nowitzki should be the clear cut #1

if we base the season off of the last 12 games versus all 100, then yes. If not, he is right where he should be

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 01:53 PM
I don't really think he put much weight into injuries, otherwise Deron would have free fallen. So at least he stayed consistent on that front. Having Deron ahead of Rose, he is using the same reason I do. I want to see Rose play at that level or better for another year or two before I can comfortably put him ahead of Deron. That isn't too much to ask, is it?

Gators123
08-16-2011, 01:55 PM
How is Salmons ahead of Tony Allen?

wow, I didn't even notice that. Pretty sad.

SteBO
08-16-2011, 01:56 PM
you have got to be kidding, right?
I can guarantee that he really isn't kidding.

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 01:57 PM
I don't really think he put much weight into injuries, otherwise Deron would have free fallen. So at least he stayed consistent on that front. Having Deron ahead of Rose, he is using the same reason I do. I want to see Rose play at that level or better for another year or two before I can comfortably put him ahead of Deron. That isn't too much to ask, is it?

Its hard to play at a higher level than MVP caliber. I think rose will continue to do what he's doing now. As a player i think its important to work on aspects of his game that needs fixing

SteBO
08-16-2011, 02:02 PM
Its hard to play at a higher level than MVP caliber. I think rose will continue to do what he's doing now. As a player i think its important to work on aspects of his game that needs fixing
Are we going to actually agree on something? :)
I agree with you here. Even though he really did have an MVP caliber year, I can still foresee him becoming a better passer, and maybe a slightly better scorer than he already is if he continues to improve his jumpshot. More offensive weapons can help him out in that regard as well. Based on last year though, I would think that Rose should be ahead of Deron, but that's just me.

Hustlenomics
08-16-2011, 02:05 PM
terrible list. Terrible

Chill_Will_24
08-16-2011, 02:07 PM
I don't really think he put much weight into injuries, otherwise Deron would have free fallen. So at least he stayed consistent on that front. Having Deron ahead of Rose, he is using the same reason I do. I want to see Rose play at that level or better for another year or two before I can comfortably put him ahead of Deron. That isn't too much to ask, is it?

The only issue i see is being so unforgiving towards Melo but truthfully i dont disagree with his analysis.

Rose is right around where he should be and i also agree that he could very well make another jump into the top 5 if he improves his shot selection and learns to properly run a team. I think most intelligent posters would still choose Deron to run their team as of now. I especially loved his analysis of CP3 and i see his rankings in the MVP ballot were similar to mine. I had it Dwight, CP3, Rose, Lebron, Dirk

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 02:08 PM
Are we going to actually agree on something? :)
I agree with you here. Even though he really did have an MVP caliber year, I can still foresee him becoming a better passer, and maybe a slightly better scorer than he already is if he continues to improve his jumpshot. More offensive weapons can help him out in that regard as well. Based on last year though, I would think that Rose should be ahead of Deron, but that's just me.

lol, yes we will.. I just think he needs to be more efficient. He needs to pick his spots a little better imo.

Miltstar
08-16-2011, 02:11 PM
if we base the season off of the last 12 games versus all 100, then yes. If not, he is right where he should be

Dirk is the best player in the NBA plain and simple, has been for awhile now

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 02:12 PM
you have got to be kidding, right?

He said the same thing to me about McGrady. He said T-Mac played with a Prime Ewing and a Prime Kemp. He's not kidding.

Chill_Will_24
08-16-2011, 02:12 PM
Westbrook is better than both Anthony and STAT. The performance of their respective teams proves it as do the statistics.

LakersKB24
08-16-2011, 02:12 PM
When you read the list backwards (starting with Melo at #11 and ending with Aldridge at #20) it actually makes more sence than it does now. Melo and Stat are DEF better than 19&20. Haven't read the article yet but there's no argument in the world that could convince me that all the nine guys in that list are better than Melo.

ManRam
08-16-2011, 02:13 PM
I'm no Melo fan, but 20 is insanely low.


I like the top 4. I'd put Paul 5, Durant 6, Kobe 7, Rose 8, Deron 9. I like Pau at 10 too.

I'm fine with 11 and 12 being Aldridge and Westy. Then it starts getting weird. ZBo is way too high.

theheatles
08-16-2011, 02:15 PM
i like that aldridge got some deserved respect but this list is flawed...nash, blake westbrook and kg being above melo was atrocious

Crackadalic
08-16-2011, 02:29 PM
Ill give him credit for thinking things thru and backing up his analysis but it seems like he's bias on some players. Some are rank too high and some are rank too low. 11-21 really bothers me a lot but its not terribly bad as people mad it out to be

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 02:30 PM
Its hard to play at a higher level than MVP caliber. I think rose will continue to do what he's doing now. As a player i think its important to work on aspects of his game that needs fixing

totally agree. But I just have to see him do it a bit longer before I put him ahead of players that have done it for years. I am not asking Rose to even get better. I am asking him to repeat his play for a couple more years.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 02:32 PM
Dirk is the best player in the NBA plain and simple, has been for awhile now

good luck proving that. LeBron, Dwight, and Wade are all better players. Dirk happened to be the leader of the team that won a championship this season, but it doesn't just make someone a better player when his team wins.

Dirk was the best overall player in the playoffs. But when we brush aside the 82 games that get teams to the playoffs, the rankings become skewed and inaccurate.

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 02:34 PM
good luck proving that. LeBron, Dwight, and Wade are all better players. Dirk happened to be the leader of the team that won a championship this season, but it doesn't just make someone a better player when his team wins.

Dirk was the best overall player in the playoffs. But when we brush aside the 82 games that get teams to the playoffs, the rankings become skewed and inaccurate.

Do you think Dallas as a whole is better than Miami as a whole?

Ebbs
08-16-2011, 02:37 PM
If rather have Nash than amare both are sex offensively both suck on D. But atleast Nash makes everyone better

Chronz
08-16-2011, 02:37 PM
Ok I was wrong, either way he did not fault Nash for his D while stating that a main reason why Melo was at 20 was because he was a poor defensive player.

Bad D at the PG isnt as bad as bad D at the 3

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 02:41 PM
Do you think Dallas as a whole is better than Miami as a whole?

Didn't Dallas just prove they had the superior roster? By no means would I ever stick up for James and his choke job. But I am not letting 6 games sway my opinion over the 300+ games that LeBron and Wade have been better. Dirk was probably the best player in the league his MVP year (had a great case anyways). But he was simply a top 5 player on the best overall team this season.

alencp3
08-16-2011, 02:44 PM
paul and durant are better than kobe

-Kobe24-TJ19-
08-16-2011, 02:46 PM
And you are seen as a Melo hater too by Knicks fans

:sigh:

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 02:56 PM
actually, reading the explanation for the top 6 players, I think he nailed it completely

Chronz
08-16-2011, 03:05 PM
Its hard to play at a higher level than MVP caliber. I think rose will continue to do what he's doing now. As a player i think its important to work on aspects of his game that needs fixing

When you win the MVP the way he did, it really isnt that hard to improve. You would have a point if he won the MVP in Bron fashion.

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 03:07 PM
When you win the MVP the way he did, it really isnt that hard to improve. You would have a point if he won the MVP in Bron fashion.

What? ok buddy

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 03:07 PM
Bad D at the PG isnt as bad as bad D at the 3

Fully fully agree. I'm just saying that either way Melo is a better defensive player at his position than Nash is at his.

Hellcrooner
08-16-2011, 03:13 PM
Bad D at the PG isnt as bad as bad D at the 3

i have to disagree there and throw fisher out there.

If lakers had some dude that could stand up in front of the other teams pg and quick enough to chase them i GUARANTEE you that lakers would be celebrating the threepeat right now.

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 03:13 PM
What? ok buddy

I think what he meant is that Derrick Rose didn't blow anyone out of the water with his MVP season. He wasn't far and above the best player in the game but rather the best player on the best regular season team. LeBron was everything (on both ends of the floor) to his Cavs.

Take LeBron off that Cavs team and replace him with another player (eg Carmelo) and they are maybe a 5-6th seed in the East at best, replace Rose with say Deron Williams and I still think they Bulls would have been the top team in the East. That's the way I see it. You can disagree if you want but it would be tough to argue that Rose had a better season and was more important to his team than LeBron was to the Cavs.

juno10
08-16-2011, 03:15 PM
Do you think Dallas as a whole is better than Miami as a whole?

as soon as dallas beat LA i knew they were going to win it all, that team is too deep.

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 03:21 PM
I think what he meant is that Derrick Rose didn't blow anyone out of the water with his MVP season. He wasn't far and above the best player in the game but rather the best player on the best regular season team. LeBron was everything (on both ends of the floor) to his Cavs.

Take LeBron off that Cavs team and replace him with another player (eg Carmelo) and they are maybe a 5-6th seed in the East at best, replace Rose with say Deron Williams and I still think they Bulls would have been the top team in the East. That's the way I see it. You can disagree if you want but it would be tough to argue that Rose had a better season and was more important to his team than LeBron was to the Cavs.

I believe they were equally as important to their respective teams. Its always gonna be this way of thinking as long as Lebron is in the league. A lot of people cant deal with someone being better than him...

Chronz
08-16-2011, 03:27 PM
i have to disagree there and throw fisher out there.
The guy who checked Ray Allen in the Finals? Fisher being a bad defender isnt as bad as having a bad defensive big.


If lakers had some dude that could stand up in front of the other teams pg and quick enough to chase them i GUARANTEE you that lakers would be celebrating the threepeat right now.

If the Lakers lacked strong defenders elsewhere I GUARANTEE you they wouldnt. If your going to have a liability its best to make it at the 1.


Fully fully agree. I'm just saying that either way Melo is a better defensive player at his position than Nash is at his.
Dont know about that one, Melo is a special kind of crap defender.


What? ok buddy
Imagine winning the MVP while producing at an elite rate. Its really not that hard to figure out, or do you think every MVP winner in NBA history was equally impressive.

KnicksR4Real
08-16-2011, 03:27 PM
melo and amare? this is just wacked

Swashcuff
08-16-2011, 03:28 PM
I believe they were equally as important to their respective teams. Its always gonna be this way of thinking as long as Lebron is in the league. A lot of people cant deal with someone being better than him...

I'd still give the edge to LeBron.

Look at my avatar, my sig and my post history. I am one of the biggest Allen Iverson fans on this site and even I can say that LeBron was more important to his Cavs than A.I. was to my 76ers.

I can certainly deal with someone being better than LeBron I am actually rooting for it. In this very thread I said I believe Blake could possibly one day be better than him. However I appreciate what he was able to do for his team throughout those regular seasons. I mean look at those Cavs he took to the finals and find a team with a weaker supporting cast of players that was able to make the finals. Do you think Rose's cast was weaker or equally as weak?

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 03:34 PM
I'd still give the edge to LeBron.

Look at my avatar, my sig and my post history. I am one of the biggest Allen Iverson fans on this site and even I can say that LeBron was more important to his Cavs than A.I. was to my 76ers.

I can certainly deal with someone being better than LeBron I am actually rooting for it. In this very thread I said I believe Blake could possibly one day be better than him. However I appreciate what he was able to do for his team throughout those regular seasons. I mean look at those Cavs he took to the finals and find a team with a weaker supporting cast of players that was able to make the finals. Do you think Rose's cast was weaker or equally as weak?

I agree 100% with this post. I thought Iversons team in philly was pretty darn good though. They were made up perfectly for him. But at the same time i believe the same with the Cavs teams. I find it funny that people now say those Cavs teams were garbage, but were saying they were the best team in the league when they were winning 60 games. They focused on Defense and were damn good at it.. Roses bulls were better as a whole than those cavs teams, but not by much. I'll truly be able to rate them after the nest season with another year to get comfortable with each other.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 03:52 PM
I find it funny that people now say those Cavs teams were garbage, but were saying they were the best team in the league when they were winning 60 games. They focused on Defense and were damn good at it.. Roses bulls were better as a whole than those cavs teams, but not by much. I'll truly be able to rate them after the nest season with another year to get comfortable with each other.

you can check my posts from the last 3 years regarding this. I always said they were a team that didn't have the help to win LeBron a ring. They were garbage.

The Bulls roster was miles better than the Cavs roster. Hell, Boozer and Deng alone would have been plenty for LeBron with that defense. Alas, he had Mo Williams and whomever else was able to hit a 15 footer that night.

Back to the subject, LeBron is the elite of the elite on both ends, and that is what makes him the best player.

MagicBucsSox
08-16-2011, 03:57 PM
Lmao Dwight doesn't have a teammate in the top85

smith&wesson
08-16-2011, 04:28 PM
lol at garnet being 17 and carmelo and stat at 19 & 20. how the hell is that possible ?

marvILLous
08-16-2011, 04:31 PM
lol aldridge is not even better than bosh

Chill_Will_24
08-16-2011, 04:36 PM
lol at garnet being 17 and carmelo and stat at 19 & 20. how the hell is that possible ?

Cuz they SUUUUUUUCKKKK!!! :laugh: :laugh2: :D :p :o :) :sigh: but just kidding. I dont think either is top ten with Melo just missing it but 19 and 20 is wayyyy too low and disrespectful..

RZZZA
08-16-2011, 04:41 PM
some strange choices on this list, very strange. Arron Afflalo that low?

TheRunKiller
08-16-2011, 04:55 PM
deron williams should be 11-20 he's not a top 10 player

smith&wesson
08-16-2011, 05:15 PM
Cuz they SUUUUUUUCKKKK!!! :laugh: :laugh2: :D :p :o :) :sigh: but just kidding. I dont think either is top ten with Melo just missing it but 19 and 20 is wayyyy too low and disrespectful..

whats up chill will lol i agree i dont think either is top 10 either but if they are gonna list stat and melo 19-20 then they should atleast come up wit 18 guys that are actually better then them.

iggypop123
08-16-2011, 05:54 PM
lol aldridge is not even better than bosh

yes he is.

KnicksorBust
08-16-2011, 06:13 PM
lol at garnet being 17 and carmelo and stat at 19 & 20. how the hell is that possible ?

Read the article. He supports his rankings with plenty of evidence. Melo and Stat defensively are significantly bad.

Baller1
08-16-2011, 06:32 PM
Durant below Williams and Kobe is ********. CP3 is arguable as well.

Chill_Will_24
08-16-2011, 07:10 PM
deron williams should be 11-20 he's not a top 10 player

:clap:

Chill_Will_24
08-16-2011, 07:15 PM
whats up chill will lol i agree i dont think either is top 10 either but if they are gonna list stat and melo 19-20 then they should atleast come up wit 18 guys that are actually better then them.

Absolutely and for once you and i are on the same page... I agree i think Melo and Durant are very similar and should not be ranked that far apart. I would put Melo at #11 and STAT around #14 and as much as i admire Nash, Ginobli, and Garnett none of them should be ranked above Melo or STAT. Gasol at number #10 seems just a bit high as well.

Chill_Will_24
08-16-2011, 07:16 PM
Read the article. He supports his rankings with plenty of evidence. Melo and Stat defensively are significantly bad.

No need for modesty, although its definitely a breath of fresh air coming from a Knicks fan STAT and Melo at #19 and #20 is disrespectful

Chill_Will_24
08-16-2011, 07:19 PM
Durant below Williams and Kobe is ********. CP3 is arguable as well.

Disagree. The top 10 look just about perfect to me. I think Gasol at #10 is a stretch but he was at least reasonable. However there is no way you can argue Durant>CP3 so dont even try. Deron and Kobe mayyyyyyyybe just mayyyyyyyyyyyybe... but CP3 is unreal

KnicksorBust
08-16-2011, 07:27 PM
No need for modesty, although its definitely a breath of fresh air coming from a Knicks fan STAT and Melo at #19 and #20 is disrespectful

Bull ****. They could both be top 10 players if they put in the effort on defense and we'd be neck and neck with the Heat. But no. Melo and Amar'e get **** on. I remember watching every minute of back to back games where Tyler Hansborough looked like Karl ****ing Malone. If Amar'e or Carmelo had any balls they would have locked his *** down. Someone find the damn game logs.

Law25
08-16-2011, 07:28 PM
1)I would switch Durant and Rose and move Williams behind them. I think rose is an better all around player whereas Durant is just the better scorer. I think his leadership is also in question because of the way he let Westbrooke take over the team in the playoffs.

2)I would also switch Dirk and Kobe becuase one GREAT playoff run dosent put him ahead. Kobe and his teammeates were tired from three straight final apperances so they were no match for the Mavs.

3) I would switch Wade and Lebron the playoffs proved that. Against the biggest threats Boston and the Mavs Wade shined brighter. Lebron was best against an young Phily 8th seed and and inexperienced Bulls team.

My List Judging from last year (this season if ther is one may prove different)

10. Pau
9. Williams
8. Durant
7. Rose
6. CP3
5. Dirk
4. Kobe
3. Lebron
2. Howard
1. Wade

VCaintdead17
08-16-2011, 07:41 PM
Jameer over Felton?

No.

BHF
08-16-2011, 07:44 PM
1)I would switch Durant and Rose and move Williams behind them. I think rose is an better all around player whereas Durant is just the better scorer. I think his leadership is also in question because of the way he let Westbrooke take over the team in the playoffs.

2)I would also switch Dirk and Kobe becuase one GREAT playoff run dosent put him ahead. Kobe and his teammeates were tired from three straight final apperances so they were no match for the Mavs.

3) I would switch Wade and Lebron the playoffs proved that. Against the biggest threats Boston and the Mavs Wade shined brighter. Lebron was best against an young Phily 8th seed and and inexperienced Bulls team.

My List Judging from last year (this season if ther is one may prove different)

10. Pau
9. Williams
8. Durant
7. Rose
6. CP3
5. Dirk
4. Kobe
3. Lebron
2. Howard
1. Wade

LOL wtf are you smoking? rose over durant and williams ahahhahahahahahhah

Chill_Will_24
08-16-2011, 07:45 PM
Bull ****. They could both be top 10 players if they put in the effort on defense and we'd be neck and neck with the Heat. But no. Melo and Amar'e get **** on. I remember watching every minute of back to back games where Tyler Hansborough looked like Karl ****ing Malone. If Amar'e or Carmelo had any balls they would have locked his *** down. Someone find the damn game logs.

I agree that their defense is atrocious but their bad defense alone is not enough to put players that are clearly not as good ahead of them.. They at least have the potential to be good defenders with the right system and coach. Garnett doesnt have the potential to become younger and regain his old form and get better om offense again. Nash is pretty much done and PHX aint going nowhere and he also is a horrible defender.

Like i said.. Melo and STAT should be higher by virtue of the players that are ranked above them not being as good as them.

Chill_Will_24
08-16-2011, 07:48 PM
LOL wtf are you smoking? rose over durant and williams ahahhahahahahahhah

lol i know right. The writer actually did a great job doing his homework and reasoning his rankings. His top 10 is actually really good except i would lower Gasol a couple of spots. In fact its his 11-20 rankings that look very iffy at best.

Sactown
08-16-2011, 07:56 PM
Tyson Chandler is a great role player, but not #34.. especially if you have J Kidd at 58..

GodsSon
08-16-2011, 07:57 PM
Bargnani at 66?? The way he's talked about on PSD is as if he's the worst player in the league.

Maybe he's just not as bad as some of you try to claim...

naps
08-16-2011, 08:01 PM
Top 10 looks ok to me even though my top 5 would look a little different (LeBron, Wade, Howard, CP3, and Durant in that order).

SeoulBeatz
08-16-2011, 08:04 PM
Agree with most of list, but Tyson Chandler is waaaay too high.

Bulls_fan90
08-16-2011, 08:08 PM
Bargnani at 66?? The way he's talked about on PSD is as if he's the worst player in the league.

Maybe he's just not as bad as some of you try to claim...

The people that complain the most about Bargnani are Raptor fans. The rest of the league couldn't really give a **** about him.

gwrighter
08-16-2011, 08:27 PM
Bargnani at 66?? The way he's talked about on PSD is as if he's the worst player in the league.

Maybe he's just not as bad as some of you try to claim...

he was the 1st option on the Raptors. so idealy you would assume that he's hopefully a top 30 player. but Bargs is at 66 so there are on average 2 players better than him on every team n he is the Raps 1st option:mad:

YourTeamSucks
08-16-2011, 08:31 PM
id say dirk number 3 durant ahead of kobe and rose ahead of d will besides that good list imo

DR_1
08-16-2011, 08:41 PM
Rose at 9?
Durant at 8?
Love at 21?
Stat at 19?

Dumb list

smith&wesson
08-16-2011, 08:53 PM
Absolutely and for once you and i are on the same page... I agree i think Melo and Durant are very similar and should not be ranked that far apart. I would put Melo at #11 and STAT around #14 and as much as i admire Nash, Ginobli, and Garnett none of them should be ranked above Melo or STAT. Gasol at number #10 seems just a bit high as well.

yep i have melo at 11 and stat around 13-14 as well. in 2011 stat is a better player then kg. if were talking all time then its a different story. thats where this article lost me.

NYtilIdie
08-16-2011, 09:47 PM
Melo should at least be in the 10-15 range, he plays average defense and picks it up when he needs to, motivation is whats holding Melo back. Amare is right where he should be, his defense is so damn horrendous it pisses me off. It just doesn't click with him, I don't know if he just doesn't care or is just that bad mentally on defense, but its just ridiklis!

Sad part is, Amare has all the tools to be a great defender. You'd figure after Hansbrough and Love the man would take more pride on that side of the ball. Amare's liability on defense will be the sole reason why the Knicks will never win a championship during his tenure.

SeoulBeatz
08-16-2011, 10:05 PM
Rose at 9?
Durant at 8?
Love at 21?
Stat at 19?

Dumb list

Those don't seem too outlandish too me? Maybe KG and Pierce shouldn't be that high anymore, but i still think those rankings are pretty sound.

Chronz
08-17-2011, 12:32 PM
Bargnani at 66?? The way he's talked about on PSD is as if he's the worst player in the league.

Maybe he's just not as bad as some of you try to claim...

Having a top 66 player as your cornerstone isnt helping him. Everyone knows he has some talent but not what for what hes earning. Thats all Ive been saying and its all Ive heard others say.

Hawkeye15
08-17-2011, 12:34 PM
Having a top 66 player as your cornerstone isnt helping him. Everyone knows he has some talent but not what for what hes earning. Thats all Ive been saying and its all Ive heard others say.

I think I may have thrown in a, "He is the worst rebounder alive" statement or two as well...

mzgrizz
08-17-2011, 08:12 PM
I liked the rankings for all the Grizzlies but I think Marc should have been higher than 40. Rudy at 28 is more of what he was doing pre- injury and what he can do. He certainly was improving his game when he went out. Still I couldn't have given him as high as 28.

Venomous88
08-17-2011, 09:33 PM
my list

1. LeBron James
2. Dwight Howard
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Chris Paul
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Derrick Rose
8. Kevin Durant
9. Carmelo Anthony
10. Deron Williams

11. Amar'e Stoudemire
12. Russel Westbrook
13. Pau Gasol
14. Steve Nash
15. Paul Pierce
16. Zach Randolph
17. Manu Ginobili
18. Chris Bosh
19. LaMarcus Aldridge
20. Rajon Rondo

21. Blake Griffin
22. Kevin Garnett
23. Kevin Love
24. Rudy Gay
25. Nene

sventhedog
08-18-2011, 12:18 AM
this ranking further validates claims that the quality of players are declining. 2 decades ago, when you see MJ on the top of the list, everyone would just shut up because no matter how much you hated him, you can't argue about his greatness. but now when you see lebron on the top of the list, there's just too much questions.

Evolution23
08-18-2011, 04:08 PM
my list

1. LeBron James
2. Dwight Howard
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Chris Paul
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Derrick Rose
8. Kevin Durant
9. Carmelo Anthony
10. Deron Williams

11. Amar'e Stoudemire
12. Russel Westbrook
13. Pau Gasol
14. Steve Nash
15. Paul Pierce
16. Zach Randolph
17. Manu Ginobili
18. Chris Bosh
19. LaMarcus Aldridge
20. Rajon Rondo

21. Blake Griffin
22. Kevin Garnett
23. Kevin Love
24. Rudy Gay
25. Nene

This is more accurate

JordansBulls
08-18-2011, 04:22 PM
Horrible list. Deron should not be ahead of Rose period. Deron not only had similar players as Rose, but never had higher than a 4th seed, not to mention never finished higher than 9th in MVP voting.

coryd238
08-18-2011, 07:45 PM
The guy who checked Ray Allen in the Finals? Fisher being a bad defender isnt as bad as having a bad defensive big.


If the Lakers lacked strong defenders elsewhere I GUARANTEE you they wouldnt. If your going to have a liability its best to make it at the 1.


Dont know about that one, Melo is a special kind of crap defender.


Imagine winning the MVP while producing at an elite rate. Its really not that hard to figure out, or do you think every MVP winner in NBA history was equally impressive.


Oh my, Melo is not a "special kind of crap defender". He was average when he was with New York.

And Melo has been the legitimate number 1 option his entire career (it's debatable when he was with AI and STAT), and for this guy to rank second options above him is ridiculous. Lol @ Pau being top 10.

coryd238
08-18-2011, 07:48 PM
Bull ****. They could both be top 10 players if they put in the effort on defense and we'd be neck and neck with the Heat. But no. Melo and Amar'e get **** on. I remember watching every minute of back to back games where Tyler Hansborough looked like Karl ****ing Malone. If Amar'e or Carmelo had any balls they would have locked his *** down. Someone find the damn game logs.

What does Melo have to do with Hansborough? That was all Stat's fault. Melo was on Granger, and he did a good job on him.