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View Full Version : Which is an easier argument, Lebron or Kobe never being the best in the league?



PinnacleFlash
08-15-2011, 08:50 PM
Which would be easier for you to argue, Kobe never being the best player in the league? Or Lebron never being the best player in the league?


One could argue that the best players since 2006 were....

2006 - Wade
2007 - Duncan
2008 - Kobe
2009 - Kobe
2010 - Kobe
2011 - Dirk

Another could argue that the best players since 2006 were....

2006 - Wade
2007 - Duncan
2008 - CP3/KG/Lebron
2009 - Lebron
2010 - Lebron
2011 - Lebron

I personally think it would be easier for me to argue Lebron never being the best player in the league than Kobe.

One could argue that Kobe was never the best from 06-10 and another could argue that Lebron was never the best from 06-11. Which would be easier for you?

ManRam
08-15-2011, 08:57 PM
There was a thread a while ago asking how many years Kobe was the best player in the league. I said 1-2.

I think he was the clear best in 2006. I think any time before that is a huge stretch...as he was awful in 2005, and Shaq was better up until that year for sure.

I think LeBron has been the consensus best player in the NBA the last 2, and probably three years.

So it's pretty even. I won't pick a side in 2009 (the side I picked at the time was Bron though).

2006: Kobe
2007: Duncan or Dirk
2008: Paul
2009: I do think it was LeBron, but it was pretty close. There was still a debate for sure
2010: LeBron: No longer a debate
2011: LeBron for the entire season, Dirk if you only care about 2 weeks in a season.

Tony_Starks
08-15-2011, 08:59 PM
If you're not a Laker fan you should state so immediately or you will be accused of being a Kobe worhsipper by the way......


First off they've both clearly been the best in the game for a minimum of one season apiece. But which argument would be easier I'd have to go with the guy with no rings. One could easily argue that at least 1 out of the 5 times Kobe got a ring he was the best.

asandhu23
08-15-2011, 09:00 PM
LeBron never being the best.

Hawkeye15
08-15-2011, 09:03 PM
ugh. This is very hard honestly. I think LeBron has an easy case for being the best player for 1+ years. But I think Kobe has a case for 1-2 seasons as well as the stand alone best player in the NBA, on an individual basis.

To answer the OP, Kobe is my answer. Its much easier to make a case that Kobe was not the best individual best player for a single season than it is LeBron.

Sadds The Gr8
08-15-2011, 09:06 PM
on general terms, it'd be easier to argue that Lebron was never the best because most casual fans think Kobe is better since he has multiple rings. it'd be much easier to convince someone that Lebron was never the best player in the league, than it would be for Kobe.

RevisIsland
08-15-2011, 09:11 PM
They've both been the best player in the the league at different times.

beasted86
08-15-2011, 09:14 PM
I find in these topics you are going to find inconsistent logic abound when saying who was the best player which year.

One year they'll use best statistical output, next season they use impact vs. teammates based on team record, next season they'll use best player on championship winning team. Hardly ever will people stick to one script and fly with it.

Dr.J>YOU
08-15-2011, 09:34 PM
Lebron easily he doesn't bother to play in the finals. He is more on Vince Carter's level which is still pretty damn cool.

tev_dodd
08-15-2011, 10:11 PM
Misclicked sorry, meant to vote for Kobe but didn't end up that way.

dev0
08-15-2011, 10:34 PM
LeBron. But moot poll anyways until they both retire and have a careers-worth of accomplishments to actually compare. Anything else is just speculation

LakersMaster24
08-15-2011, 11:20 PM
There was a thread a while ago asking how many years Kobe was the best player in the league. I said 1-2.

I think he was the clear best in 2006. I think any time before that is a huge stretch...as he was awful in 2005, and Shaq was better up until that year for sure.

I think LeBron has been the consensus best player in the NBA the last 2, and probably three years.

So it's pretty even. I won't pick a side in 2009 (the side I picked at the time was Bron though).

2006: Kobe
2007: Duncan or Dirk
2008: Paul
2009: I do think it was LeBron, but it was pretty close. There was still a debate for sure
2010: LeBron: No longer a debate
2011: LeBron for the entire season, Dirk if you only care about 2 weeks in a season.

If by last two weeks you mean the playoffs then Dirk was easily the best player in 2011. Because whatever you do during the regular means NOTHING, unless you can back it up with strong play in the playoffs. Dirk was killing everyone on his way, while Lebron averaged 2 points in the 4th quarter.

Evolution23
08-15-2011, 11:21 PM
It's much easier to defend the guy with 5 rings than to defend the guy with 0. I know it comes down to way more factors than championships but to the casual fan and even some diehards its still comes down to winning.

Jewelz0376
08-15-2011, 11:31 PM
It's much easier to defend the guy with 5 rings than to defend the guy with 0. I know it comes down to way more factors than championships but to the casual fan and even some diehards its still comes down to winning.

I agree with this... Kobe's biggest argument for many people are his rings...Lebron's biggest argument are his stats... I think you will find more people that put more weight into Kobe's rings than Lebrons stats

KnicksorBust
08-16-2011, 12:20 AM
It's easy to argue Kobe's never been the best. LeBron is supported by statistics. He's led the league in PER the last 4 seasons. Kobe's never finished in the top 2 in PER. Rings are more indicative of having a strong team whereas PER is more an individual metric.

Stuckey#3
08-16-2011, 12:56 AM
Do ****heads create accounts just to post stupid **** like this? Seriously how many ways can the Kobe vs Lebron argument be had?

juno10
08-16-2011, 12:59 AM
Do ****heads create accounts just to post stupid **** like this? Seriously how many ways can the Kobe vs Lebron argument be had?

lol yeah and he made a wade vs bron thread yesterday, im expecting durant vs bron tomm.

Stuckey#3
08-16-2011, 01:03 AM
2011: LeBron for the entire season, Dirk if you only care about 2 weeks in a season.

Yeah **** those two weeks... it's not like they decide the league champion or anything.

If you remember correctly the Mavs were the hottest team in the league until Butler was hurt.

Hellcrooner
08-16-2011, 01:21 AM
97 Jordan
98 Jordan
99 Shaq
00 Shaq
01 Shaq
02 Shaq
03 Shaq
04 duncan
05 duncan
06 Wade
07 lebron
08 Lebron
09 Lebron
10 Dirk.

Imo Kobe has NEVER been the best player ANY season yet you could easily claim him being the best player of the ENTIRE time frame.
the trick is he has been MORE REGULAR than any of the players in the list.
He has STEADILY be a top 3 player instead of being the best at some moments and then some eyars not being even top 5.

LakersMaster24
08-16-2011, 01:43 AM
97 Jordan
98 Jordan
99 Shaq
00 Shaq
01 Shaq
02 Shaq
03 Shaq
04 duncan
05 duncan
06 Wade
07 lebron
08 Lebron
09 Lebron
10 Dirk.

Imo Kobe has NEVER been the best player ANY season yet you could easily claim him being the best player of the ENTIRE time frame.
the trick is he has been MORE REGULAR than any of the players in the list.
He has STEADILY be a top 3 player instead of being the best at some moments and then some eyars not being even top 5.

Bingo. Kobe has been a Top 3 player or a Top 3 Shooting-Guard for the past 10 years. It can be even argued that he was the best player in some of those years such as 2006,2008,2009, makes it even better.

Catoblepas
08-16-2011, 03:01 AM
both are tough arguments.. when its all said and done though the game changes a little each year.. It's why you can only argue Wilt/Shaq's Dominance against newer Centers to a certain point.

But! I give it to kobe.. his will gives him the edge

brodawgs
08-16-2011, 03:30 AM
It is "easier" to argue that Kobe was never the best player.

There was a two year period where Kobe was, as general consensus had it, the best player in the league. There are good arguments against it, but nearly everyone, including Kobe haters, would say he was the best at least one year.

There was a three to four year period where Lebron was, as general consensus had it, the best player in the league. There are fewer good arguments against it, and nearly everyone, even Lebron haters, say at least two years he was the best.

Looking at statistics based on individuals (PER) Lebron clearly wins the argument.

Rings are a team function, but still Kobe lead his team to something Lebron has never done, so Kobe wins the argument.

It's a moot question though, because you'd have to be an idiot to say that not both of these guys were best in the league at least once.

EDIT: Btw, you guys know if you vote 'for' Lebron or Kobe, you're voting that it is easier to say that he was never the best right?

knightstemplar
08-16-2011, 03:42 AM
2006-10 Kobe
2011-Present Lebron

2009-11 is arguable, so inb4 lebron stans

but i guess to answer your question its Lebron

i.got.the.nutz
08-16-2011, 03:47 AM
Ask this question to the GMs and coaches in the league, and you will see how lopsided the poll would be.

naps
08-16-2011, 04:57 AM
LeBron has been the best on the planet for past 3 years (may be 4) hands down. I can't recall a year where Kobe was clearly the best. Kobe has been a top 5 player for most of his career. His longevity on the elite level is what makes him great but he never was the clear-cut best.

naps
08-16-2011, 05:00 AM
By the way, the OP is most likely a dupe. He is on a mission. He's already created multiple LeBron threads and bashed him in a way you could tell the motive of creating his account was "Hate LeBron."

LakersMaster24
08-16-2011, 05:22 AM
I saw like 10 threads made by him already...

faridk89
08-16-2011, 05:45 AM
honestly is this arguable? Kobe has most def been the best player in the NBA hands down, Lebron on the other hand....

DodgerBulls
08-16-2011, 06:03 AM
To make it easier for me, neither.

Yanks All Day
08-16-2011, 06:44 AM
honestly is this arguable? Kobe has most def been the best player in the NBA hands down, Lebron on the other hand....

Has been the best player for the last 3, maybe 4, years?

It's probably neither, for the sake of this thread. There was a period of time where Kobe was the best, but that was short lived. He has always been consistently in the top 3. LeBron has been the best player in basketball for a while now, already longer than Kobe has, but both have been the best at some point in their careers.

If the question was "Who will have spent more years as the best player?" I'd say LeBron.

NYKalltheway
08-16-2011, 07:20 AM
Kobe here...
But it's a weird argument. Kobe has a say in being the best player of the decade due to consistency, while he was never UNDOUBTEDLY the #1 player in a given NBA season (personally I have him the best at 2 seasons)
Lebron is the consensus best player in the league since 2009, if you don't see that, well, remove those hatred glasses

mttwlsn16
08-16-2011, 07:33 AM
well...lebron is really clutch...soooo lol

MTar786
08-16-2011, 08:00 AM
i like how everyone is like in 03 duncan was the best, in 06 wade was the best, lebron in 07, dirk in 11. all obviously voted because they reached the finals.. yet kobe doesnt get that nod to some in 08.09 and 10.

haters will be haters.

kobe was the best from 06-10
lebron is the best now.
before that duncan was the best for 1 or 2 seasons.. and before that shaq was the best for a bunch of seasons.

99-shaq
00-shaq
01-shaq
02-shaq
03- shaq,kobe and duncan (all equals)
04-duncan
05-duncan
06-kobe
07-kobe
08-kobe
09-kobe
10-lebron
11-lebron
12- probably lebron. maybe wade

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 09:23 AM
97 Jordan
98 Jordan
99 Shaq
00 Shaq
01 Shaq
02 Shaq
03 Shaq
04 duncan
05 duncan
06 Wade
07 lebron
08 Lebron
09 Lebron
10 Dirk.

Imo Kobe has NEVER been the best player ANY season yet you could easily claim him being the best player of the ENTIRE time frame.
the trick is he has been MORE REGULAR than any of the players in the list.
He has STEADILY be a top 3 player instead of being the best at some moments and then some eyars not being even top 5.


1- I agree with your post entirely
2- Did you just actually give Dirk Nowitzki praise?????

SteBO
08-16-2011, 09:24 AM
i like how everyone is like in 03 duncan was the best, in 06 wade was the best, lebron in 07, dirk in 11. all obviously voted because they reached the finals.. yet kobe doesnt get that nod to some in 08.09 and 10.

haters will be haters.

kobe was the best from 06-10
lebron is the best now.
before that duncan was the best for 1 or 2 seasons.. and before that shaq was the best for a bunch of seasons.

99-shaq
00-shaq
01-shaq
02-shaq
03- shaq,kobe and duncan (all equals)
04-duncan
05-duncan
06-kobe
07-kobe
08-kobe
09-kobe
10-lebron
11-lebron
12- probably lebron. maybe wade

Please explain to me why you think this is the case. I'm very interested in your answer.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 09:31 AM
I still don't understand why some Kobe fans can't get past the point that Kobe really never put up the numbers or individual level of play to be considered the clear cut best individual player in any year. The unique thing about Kobe, and what is going to make him a top 10 all time player, is the fact that he was able to be a top 3 player for a decade, which is nearly impossible to do.

LeBron on the other hand, has clearly been the best INDIVIDUAL (so many of you still can not separate this) player in the NBA for a minimum of 3 years now. And this is much easier to prove than attempting to prove Kobe was ever the best player in the league.

Be happy you got a top 10 player ever and a stacked roster with a great coach/owner. Isn't that enough? There is no reason to push a player so hard, who just doesn't have the individual numbers of some other guys

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 11:13 AM
97 Jordan
98 Jordan
99 Shaq
00 Shaq
01 Shaq
02 Shaq
03 Shaq
04 duncan
05 duncan
06 Wade
07 lebron
08 Lebron
09 Lebron
10 Dirk.

Imo Kobe has NEVER been the best player ANY season yet you could easily claim him being the best player of the ENTIRE time frame.
the trick is he has been MORE REGULAR than any of the players in the list.
He has STEADILY be a top 3 player instead of being the best at some moments and then some eyars not being even top 5.

Your opinion shouldnt count because you love Lebron and hate Kobe..

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 11:14 AM
I still don't understand why some Kobe fans can't get past the point that Kobe really never put up the numbers or individual level of play to be considered the clear cut best individual player in any year. The unique thing about Kobe, and what is going to make him a top 10 all time player, is the fact that he was able to be a top 3 player for a decade, which is nearly impossible to do.

LeBron on the other hand, has clearly been the best INDIVIDUAL (so many of you still can not separate this) player in the NBA for a minimum of 3 years now. And this is much easier to prove than attempting to prove Kobe was ever the best player in the league.

Be happy you got a top 10 player ever and a stacked roster with a great coach/owner. Isn't that enough? There is no reason to push a player so hard, who just doesn't have the individual numbers of some other guys

Wow you people hate Kobe.... smh

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 11:17 AM
There is a group of people on this site who think that sports is only about stats. If you don't win your team wasn't stacked so it doesn't count. If you do win, you were on a stacked team. Unfortunately all those people here on this site are the mods and they ban you if you disagree...

Sly Guy
08-16-2011, 12:23 PM
I hate LeBron, but I know he carried the cavs to absolutely inflated records so I know he's been the best in at least one season, but likely more than that.

Kobe on the other hand, has had better supporting casts on average, but then again, he's done what he's supposed to, which is win games and championships.

I'd argue both have been 'best in the league' at some point, but given the choice, I'd go with Kobe being the guy 'who's not been best' by virtue of the help he's had in LA.

MackSnackWrap
08-16-2011, 12:48 PM
It's easy to argue Kobe's never been the best. LeBron is supported by statistics. He's led the league in PER the last 4 seasons. Kobe's never finished in the top 2 in PER. Rings are more indicative of having a strong team whereas PER is more an individual metric.

This.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 01:31 PM
Wow you people hate Kobe.... smh

where is my post did I give any hate to Kobe? Oh wait, its you nick....

Again, as I said, its much easier to prove Kobe was never the best individual player in any season. That is the question of the thread. Its nearly impossible to prove that LeBron has never been the best player in the NBA.

I will say it again. What makes Kobe such a great player, all time, is the sheer fact that he laid claim to being a top 3 player for a decade+. That is ridiculously hard to do.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 01:32 PM
There is a group of people on this site who think that sports is only about stats. If you don't win your team wasn't stacked so it doesn't count. If you do win, you were on a stacked team.


Unfortunately all those people here on this site are the mods and they ban you if you disagree...

There are also a group of people here who can't separate individuals in a team sport, and will forever rate players that won rings higher than they should be.

No, we ban when you break the rules here. Simple, no?

Gators123
08-16-2011, 01:37 PM
Wow you people hate Kobe.... smh

Just because some people aren't on his balls like you are doesn't mean they hate him.

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 01:41 PM
Just because some people aren't on his balls like you are doesn't mean they hate him.

So if you root for Kobe your on his balls? Care to explain that one? When Kobe messes up, im the first one on his case.. Im a Laker fan much more than a Kobe fan.. Its just laughable to me how much people hate the man...

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 01:44 PM
There are also a group of people here who can't separate individuals in a team sport, and will forever rate players that won rings higher than they should be.

No, we ban when you break the rules here. Simple, no?

I got banned for "insults" (like this is preschool or some ****). But yet i read "insults" from other people here daily. People that are "respected posters on psd". They get a pass though it seems because they care about advanced stats and licking the mods balls....
And like ive said since day one, you robots think that greatness is measured by stats. Lebron is proving you wrong every year...

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 01:48 PM
There are also a group of people here who can't separate individuals in a team sport, and will forever rate players that won rings higher than they should be.

No, we ban when you break the rules here. Simple, no?

your wrong if you think i think that way buddy. I dont rate Horry higher than Lebron. I do rate Wade higher than Lebron. Being the most athletic player doesnt mean your the greatest. Lebron is like a guy in school who gets an A on every test bulls fails the final (no pun).

Ebbs
08-16-2011, 02:34 PM
Lolz Kobe is much easier to argue. I would have a hard time arguing anyone over LeBron in the last 6 years

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 02:45 PM
I got banned for "insults" (like this is preschool or some ****). But yet i read "insults" from other people here daily. People that are "respected posters on psd". They get a pass though it seems because they care about advanced stats and licking the mods balls....
And like ive said since day one, you robots think that greatness is measured by stats. Lebron is proving you wrong every year...

you had numerous infractions when you made that insult.

If you would like to push this further, feel free to take it to the F&S Forum. There is a reason some here are respected. Its because they don't start laughing at everyone who disagrees with them the day they start their account, and hurl insults and baiting material around.

Take it to F&S. I am deleting any further conversation regarding your complaint/opinion on this matter in this thread.

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 02:46 PM
delete away!

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 02:46 PM
your wrong if you think i think that way buddy. I dont rate Horry higher than Lebron. I do rate Wade higher than Lebron. Being the most athletic player doesnt mean your the greatest. Lebron is like a guy in school who gets an A on every test bulls fails the final (no pun).

Your posts prove otherwise man.

And way to pull out the Horry card

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 02:53 PM
Your posts prove otherwise man.

And way to pull out the Horry card

lmao.. come on.. Ive had the Horry card pulled out on me numerous times.. Double standards. And my point is that great players make their teams great. The fact that you and other "respected posters" here dont get that baffles me.
Obviously Jordan didnt walk out on the street, pick 4 players up, and win championships. The fact that so many excuses are made for players like Lebron not winning is ridiculous. The same way Kobe had Shaq and Gasol, is the same way Lebron had Wade AND Bosh. Great players arent having 4th quarters like that. Another "respected poster" here said it was because Lebron was tired from the Bulls series.. smh.. laughable.

Hellcrooner
08-16-2011, 03:11 PM
^only an absolutely blind kobe homer would read my post and take as a conclusion that im hating on the dude.

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 03:36 PM
^only an absolutely blind kobe homer would read my post and take as a conclusion that im hating on the dude.

lol@ Kobe homer... Again, im a LAKERS homer...

Ovratd1up
08-16-2011, 04:34 PM
You're also irrational and unwilling to carry out an argument through logic. And thus, you won't get the same kind of respect.

pedrofan45
08-16-2011, 04:57 PM
the question is who has been better than lebron these past few years.. anyone try to give an argument to who was better than lebron.. you gonna say Dirk was the best this past year?? for two weeks he was great.. but i'd like to hear someone take day in and day out stats from another player who's actually better than Lebron... I can't even stand how many lebron haters there actually is.. he is the best in the nba and has been for a while now.. unless he dies he's going to be the best for a while too.. once in a lifetime talent

Geargo Wallace
08-16-2011, 05:03 PM
lmao.. come on.. Ive had the Horry card pulled out on me numerous times.. Double standards. And my point is that great players make their teams great. The fact that you and other "respected posters" here dont get that baffles me.
Obviously Jordan didnt walk out on the street, pick 4 players up, and win championships. The fact that so many excuses are made for players like Lebron not winning is ridiculous. The same way Kobe had Shaq and Gasol, is the same way Lebron had Wade AND Bosh. Great players arent having 4th quarters like that. Another "respected poster" here said it was because Lebron was tired from the Bulls series.. smh.. laughable.

Is it fair to bring up 1 series worth of 4th quarters by LeBron? Is it fair to mention Wade and Bosh (LeBron's only legit all star talent that he's ever had) when he's only played one season with them, when Kobe has had the majority of his career surrounded with great talent? I've seen plenty of games where LeBron simply dominated entire games, let alone 4th quarters. What he did in Cleveland was simply astonishing. You'd be hard pressed to find many players in the history of the game recreate what he did with what he had.

LeBron has been clearly the best in the league for the last 3 seasons, and possibly longer. Kobe is a little more iffy.

Youmad?
08-16-2011, 05:20 PM
Lebron to me he might have been the best one year but that's it, but kobes was/hasbeen/is the best player for about 5-7 years any well known analyst would tell you that

juno10
08-16-2011, 05:25 PM
lmao.. come on.. Ive had the Horry card pulled out on me numerous times.. Double standards. And my point is that great players make their teams great. The fact that you and other "respected posters" here dont get that baffles me.
Obviously Jordan didnt walk out on the street, pick 4 players up, and win championships. The fact that so many excuses are made for players like Lebron not winning is ridiculous. The same way Kobe had Shaq and Gasol, is the same way Lebron had Wade AND Bosh. Great players arent having 4th quarters like that. Another "respected poster" here said it was because Lebron was tired from the Bulls series.. smh.. laughable.

he made it to the finals his first year with miami, remember when people started doubting kobe when he got embarrassed the first year with pau against the celtics, lebron will win a championship it's inevitable.

Youmad?
08-16-2011, 05:33 PM
lol how old are you?

Old enough to know who the best player in the league was 5-7 years ago ask the players, the coaches every year they have a poll asking who the best player in the NBA is, and Kobe is the answer and has been for 5+ years now. Idk why people suck on Lebron so much sure his stats are amazing but there are so many ways to stop him that it's not even funny, it's way harder to stop Kobe as a matter of fact ive seen this time and time again, if you play zone on Lebron or close the paint on him he is really limited he's an above average player at best when that happens

knightstemplar
08-16-2011, 05:43 PM
Kobe here...
But it's a weird argument. Kobe has a say in being the best player of the decade due to consistency, while he was never UNDOUBTEDLY the #1 player in a given NBA season (personally I have him the best at 2 seasons)
Lebron is the consensus best player in the league since 2009, if you don't see that, well, remove those hatred glasses

players, coaches, gms disagree

even your boy Bron too

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 05:45 PM
Is it fair to bring up 1 series worth of 4th quarters by LeBron? Is it fair to mention Wade and Bosh (LeBron's only legit all star talent that he's ever had) when he's only played one season with them, when Kobe has had the majority of his career surrounded with great talent? I've seen plenty of games where LeBron simply dominated entire games, let alone 4th quarters. What he did in Cleveland was simply astonishing. You'd be hard pressed to find many players in the history of the game recreate what he did with what he had.

LeBron has been clearly the best in the league for the last 3 seasons, and possibly longer. Kobe is a little more iffy.

But the same can also be said for Kobe too right? Are you saying that you've never seen Kobe dominate games? And pre gasol trade, the lakers were 3rd in the west. Lamar,Kobe,Kwame,fish,farmar,sasha,etc.. Far from "great". They got Pau mid season and went to the finals. Meanwhile Lebron and crew had a whole summer to practice and gain chemistry. When the big three was formed in Boston, i believe they won a chip that first year. So spare me that "its only the first year" crap. Thats just yet another excuse. Yea Lebron has had some great games, but many players have had great games. Im not gonna argue who was the best the past 3 years. Stats wise obviously Lebron was. No one has put numbers up like that in forever. But its not all about stats.

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 05:48 PM
You're also irrational and unwilling to carry out an argument through logic. And thus, you won't get the same kind of respect.

Calm down sir. None of those off base statements you just made about me are true... So stand down... If by logic you mean "advanced stats", then you sir are correct!

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by nickdymez


lmao.. come on.. Ive had the Horry card pulled out on me numerous times..
Double standard..

Do you know why? Because every time you get backed into a corner, you cling to Kobe's team success and try and apply it to his individual success, a continually failed argument. You can keep posting your arguments for Kobe, but they are the same old tired arguments that have been beaten up left and right, and when painted into a corner, you use the rings argument, or the hater argument. This is exactly why many of your arguments are not respected in the slightest. Coming off as a complete Kobe homer will only get you so far when you can't admit he has his limits.


And my point is that great players make their teams great.

Cavs with LeBron in 2 years- 121 wins. Without for a season- 19. You just built a case for LeBron being the best player by a landslide.


The fact that you and other "respected posters" here dont get that baffles me.

of course it would. Because you have absolutely zip idea how to evaluate a basketball player, yet in your mind you actually think you do a good job of doing so. This much is very obvious



Obviously Jordan didnt walk out on the street, pick 4 players up, and win championships.

what point are you trying to make here?


The fact that so many excuses are made for players like Lebron not winning is ridiculous.

Who is making excuses? His Cleveland teams stood zero chance of winning a ring, and he choked in the finals, despite being the reason they were there. Nobody is making excuses for him. Should we make excuses for Kobe's horrendous series he has had over his career? Oh wait, he gets a bye because despite averaging 15 ppg on horrid shooting in his first finals, his TEAM won.


The same way Kobe had Shaq and Gasol, is the same way Lebron had Wade AND Bosh.

While I finally think LeBron has enough help, and there are no excuses anymore, you have got to be joking if you don't think Kobe's championships teams were far more talented and balanced from players 1-8, and its not even close.



Great players arent having 4th quarters like that. Another "respected poster" here said it was because Lebron was tired from the Bulls series.. smh.. laughable.

Nobody is making excuses for LeBron. You are attempting to use a 6 game sample size. I just pointed out that Kobe has played terrible in multiple series over his playoff career. Hell, even game 6 of the 2010 finals, Kobe's team kept it close while he sucked the entire floor up, so when he actually hit a few shots late, they won. LeBron has never had that luxury, until now. If you really think LeBron won't be hoisting up a championship trophy at some point, you are insane.


You call everyone who doesn't bow to Kobe a "hater". Dude, you exemplify more hate than most here when it comes to the NBA. To the point of the thread, if you don't agree the answer is Kobe, than come up with a real post to debate. Otherwise continue to be looked at as a complete Kobe homer with blue/gold sunglasses superglued to their eyes.

OlivaThor
08-16-2011, 07:55 PM
LBJ in Lakers > KB in Lakers .. LBJ in Heat > KB in Heat

albertc86
08-16-2011, 08:10 PM
LeBron never being in the best. He hasn't even been the best from his draft. Personally, I've always thought Wade was a more complete player. And he has a title.

But I suppose if you're a stat whore then you'll say LeBron has been the best in the league. All I know is, every game I've seen LeBron and Kobe dueling it out, LeBron showed Kobe a lot of respect. The same respect a younger brother would show his older brother. I remember a game a few years ago where Kobe was really under the weather and LeBron still didn't wanna test Kobe. If that isn't respect, I don't know what is.

Geargo Wallace
08-16-2011, 08:19 PM
Old enough to know who the best player in the league was 5-7 years ago ask the players, the coaches every year they have a poll asking who the best player in the NBA is, and Kobe is the answer and has been for 5+ years now. Idk why people suck on Lebron so much sure his stats are amazing but there are so many ways to stop him that it's not even funny, it's way harder to stop Kobe as a matter of fact ive seen this time and time again, if you play zone on Lebron or close the paint on him he is really limited he's an above average player at best when that happens
You said he has been THE best player in the last 5-7 years. Now you say he was THE best 5-7 years ago. You mention some random, biased, coaches poll that holds no weight.

If there are so many ways to stop him, and since you know how easy it is, maybe you know something that nobody else in the world has figured out. He was lackluster in (much of) the Dallas series, but I'm sure that he's played more than 6 games in his life... I love how selective your memory is!

But the same can also be said for Kobe too right? Are you saying that you've never seen Kobe dominate games? And pre gasol trade, the lakers were 3rd in the west. Lamar,Kobe,Kwame,fish,farmar,sasha,etc.. Far from "great". They got Pau mid season and went to the finals. Meanwhile Lebron and crew had a whole summer to practice and gain chemistry. When the big three was formed in Boston, i believe they won a chip that first year. So spare me that "its only the first year" crap. Thats just yet another excuse. Yea Lebron has had some great games, but many players have had great games. Im not gonna argue who was the best the past 3 years. Stats wise obviously Lebron was. No one has put numbers up like that in forever. But its not all about stats.
Nobody said that Kobe has never dominated games before. I don't know why you're telling me this.

Yes the Big Three Celtics did win the ship in their first year. They had far greater balance on their roster, and didn't exactly go Fo' Fo' Fo' Fo' in the playoffs. I don't understand how you can **** on LeBron for not duplicating what the Celtics did in 08. If you want to judge a player on ONE postseason (which at the start of the season many believed going to the finals would be overachieving) than I'm fine with that. One could point out how much the Lakers underachieved this past postseason, or how they got destroyed in 08 to the Celtics, or how awful Kobe played in his first finals, but for sure you would find "excuses" (as you like to put it when in reference to LeBron).

Lakers + Giants
08-16-2011, 08:21 PM
I still don't understand why some Kobe fans can't get past the point that Kobe really never put up the numbers or individual level of play to be considered the clear cut best individual player in any year. The unique thing about Kobe, and what is going to make him a top 10 all time player, is the fact that he was able to be a top 3 player for a decade, which is nearly impossible to do.

LeBron on the other hand, has clearly been the best INDIVIDUAL (so many of you still can not separate this) player in the NBA for a minimum of 3 years now. And this is much easier to prove than attempting to prove Kobe was ever the best player in the league.

Be happy you got a top 10 player ever and a stacked roster with a great coach/owner. Isn't that enough? There is no reason to push a player so hard, who just doesn't have the individual numbers of some other guys

I completely agree with this, but IMO he was the best player in the NBA in only one season, 2006. How the hell is 35,5,5 not enough to be the best player in the NBA and in 06 Kobe was still a great defender.

championships
08-16-2011, 08:25 PM
That is an easy question. Lebron with 0 rings and now can not use the excuse that he hasn't had any help.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 08:29 PM
I completely agree with this, but IMO he was the best player in the NBA in only one season, 2006. How the hell is 35,5,5 not enough to be the best player in the NBA and in 06 Kobe was still a great defender.

I agree that is the single year you can make a case for Kobe being the best individual player in the NBA. And his team was knocked out in round 1.

This is why I find it borderline hilarious that anyone attempts to make a case for Kobe as the best player during his ring years. There is simply no way to prove that with any form of rational. His first 3 came when he was developing, and his next 2 came after his peak.

Geargo Wallace
08-16-2011, 08:32 PM
That is an easy question. Lebron with 0 rings and now can not use the excuse that he hasn't had any help.

I guess Horry was the better player than LeBron, but he did have more help than LeBron so it's a lot closer than it looks. I love how you mention that he just got help. Let's just forget Cleveland and just talk about 2011 finals only...

albertc86
08-16-2011, 08:33 PM
Stats are misleading. Obviously, the greater the supporting cast, the lower the star's numbers will be. Too many variables come into play when you start throwing numbers out there. That's why it's not a good basis to build an argument on even though people love to do it. It's paints a picture but doesn't give you the whole story.

I mean, when you have coaches and players (the LeBrons, Dirks, Durants) saying Kobe is the best, there must be some truth to it.

Watch the game and evaluate a player based on what you see rather than following their stats. Don't treat the game like it's a fantasy basketball league.

BULLSFAN0810
08-16-2011, 08:39 PM
97 Jordan
98 Jordan
99 Shaq
00 Shaq
01 Shaq
02 Shaq
03 Shaq
04 duncan
05 duncan
06 Wade
07 lebron
08 Lebron
09 Lebron
10 Dirk.

Imo Kobe has NEVER been the best player ANY season yet you could easily claim him being the best player of the ENTIRE time frame.
the trick is he has been MORE REGULAR than any of the players in the list.
He has STEADILY be a top 3 player instead of being the best at some moments and then some eyars not being even top 5.

95-96Grant Hill/MJ/karlmalone
96-97Granthill/MJ/Malone
98-99Hill/shaq
00-01Shaq/Ai/Hill...Detroit ruined Hills carrer,forcing him to play on a bum ankle,using the superstars play hurt rule.
01-02shaq/Tmac/Ai
02-03Shaq/Tmac/A.i
03-04shaq/Kobe/Ai* Tmac hurt
04-05shaq/Tmac/Ai
05-06kobe/Duncan/Nash
06-07kobe/Duncan/Nash
08-09Kobe/Duncan/Lebron
09-10Kobe/leBron/Howard
10-11Lebron/Howard/Rose...the new face of the NBA

SUMMARY:
Grant Hill had the potential to be an all time great he was LBJ b4 LBJ with better basketball skills and his dominence was cut short by injuries.

Shaq was basically the heir to Jordan in terms of pure will/strenght of carrying a team.

Tmac was purely dominate for a good strecth of four years and imo that make him an HOFer.not just good ,DOMINATE.

AI was unstopable and lead his team to back to back loses in the ship,both to the lakers who had Kobe and Shaq.


Duncan in my opinion is very over rated bc he couldnt bang with Shaq ,duncan was a non factor vs Shaq,he did have cluth moments,but Shaq totally Dominated everyone.


imo Lebron just became dominate as of this yr, but you cannot doubt if he is 1 of the nba"s best over the past few years.

Howard,Rose...Neewbies


order of dominence
SHAQ
AI
GRANT HILL
TMAC
KOBE
Duncan/NASh

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 08:50 PM
Stats are misleading. Obviously, the greater the supporting cast, the lower the star's numbers will be. Too many variables come into play when you start throwing numbers out there. That's why it's not a good basis to build an argument on even though people love to do it. It's paints a picture but doesn't give you the whole story..

prove any of what you say here. And dig into numbers, or you are wasting time replying.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 08:53 PM
95-96Grant Hill/MJ/karlmalone
96-97Granthill/MJ/Malone
98-99Hill/shaq
00-01Shaq/Ai/Hill...Detroit ruined Hills carrer,forcing him to play on a bum ankle,using the superstars play hurt rule.
01-02shaq/Tmac/Ai
02-03Shaq/Tmac/A.i
03-04shaq/Kobe/Ai* Tmac hurt
04-05shaq/Tmac/Ai
05-06kobe/Duncan/Nash
06-07kobe/Duncan/Nash
08-09Kobe/Duncan/Lebron
09-10Kobe/leBron/Howard
10-11Lebron/Howard/Rose...the new face of the NBA

SUMMARY:
Grant Hill had the potential to be an all time great he was LBJ b4 LBJ with better basketball skills and his dominence was cut short by injuries.

Shaq was basically the heir to Jordan in terms of pure will/strenght of carrying a team.

Tmac was purely dominate for a good strecth of four years and imo that make him an HOFer.not just good ,DOMINATE.

AI was unstopable and lead his team to back to back loses in the ship,both to the lakers who had Kobe and Shaq.


Duncan in my opinion is very over rated bc he couldnt bang with Shaq ,duncan was a non factor vs Shaq,he did have cluth moments,but Shaq totally Dominated everyone.


imo Lebron just became dominate as of this yr, but you cannot doubt if he is 1 of the nba"s best over the past few years.

Howard,Rose...Neewbies


order of dominence
SHAQ
AI
GRANT HILL
TMAC
KOBE
Duncan/NASh

I like the effort you put into this post, I do. But its wrong from top to bottom

knightstemplar
08-16-2011, 08:59 PM
I agree that is the single year you can make a case for Kobe being the best individual player in the NBA. And his team was knocked out in round 1.

This is why I find it borderline hilarious that anyone attempts to make a case for Kobe as the best player during his ring years. There is simply no way to prove that with any form of rational. His first 3 came when he was developing, and his next 2 came after his peak.

kobe was in his prime in 2001 and in 2009 and 2010 was his last prime years, 30/5/6 and 29/6/6 in the playoffs with finals mvps both years

albertc86
08-16-2011, 09:10 PM
prove any of what you say here. And dig into numbers, or you are wasting time replying.

You were one of the stat lovers I was referring to. There's nothing wrong with following stats if you participate in fantasy leagues but it's pretty weak if you call yourself a fan of the actual game. Like I said, too many variables come into play when you start throwing numbers out there.

Star players differ from each other, supporting casts differ, the systems in which they play in are different and I can go all day.

Stats just don't tell you the whole story. A player's influence off the ball doesn't show up on the stat sheet.

Yes, LeBron's numbers were inflated but that's because they had to be and he had the ball the majority of the time. Obviously his numbers across the board are going to be really high. -That goes for any player who takes on the bulk of the work for their team.

Would you say someone like Monte Ellis was the best in the league if he led the league in scoring, and had 4 rebounds and assists, respectively? Because that's what you're doing if you're just basing your argument entirely on stats. There are players, like Ellis, who if given the green light and more possession of the ball, could post monster numbers but would that make them the best in the league or in the discussion? I don't think so but maybe you would make the argument.

Lakers + Giants
08-16-2011, 09:15 PM
I agree that is the single year you can make a case for Kobe being the best individual player in the NBA. And his team was knocked out in round 1.

This is why I find it borderline hilarious that anyone attempts to make a case for Kobe as the best player during his ring years. There is simply no way to prove that with any form of rational. His first 3 came when he was developing, and his next 2 came after his peak.

Completely agree with that as well, it's honestly sad that kobe's peak was when shaq left and before gasol arrived, but like you said, laker fans should just be glad to have a top 10 player ever.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by albertc86



You were one of the stat lovers I was referring to.

Obvious at this point



There's nothing wrong with following stats if you participate in fantasy leagues but it's pretty weak if you call yourself a fan of the actual game. Like I said, too many variables come into play when you start throwing numbers out there.

Not when you understand how to measure the numbers, coupled with watching basketball for 23 years


Star players differ from each other, supporting casts differ, the systems in which they play in are different and I can go all day.

Than go. The best of the best perform under all circumstances individually. LeBron, individually, has had 3 seasons better than Kobe has ever produced.


Stats just don't tell you the whole story. A player's influence off the ball doesn't show up on the stat sheet.

Sports are not a mathematical equation. But when you watch it for 23 years, and in modern days get the NBA package and watch every team a minimum of 15-20 times (which I do), and get to watch the playoffs, you get enough evidence formulated to make your opinion if you understand basketball.


Yes, LeBron's numbers were inflated but that's because they had to be and he had the ball the majority of the time.

And Kobe hasn't had the ball the majority of the time? The Lakers failures this season came from Kobe overdominating the ball dude, and that is easy to prove.



Obviously his numbers across the board are going to be really high. -That goes for any player who takes on the bulk of the work for their team.

Both LeBron and Kobe have had plenty of years dominating the ball. Guess who has had the more efficient seasons?



Would you say someone like Monte Ellis was the best in the league if he led the league in scoring, and had 4 rebounds and assists, respectively?

You have obviously never read my posting history. Ellis is a chucker.



Because that's what you're doing if you're just basing your argument entirely on stats.

I understand stats, you just proved you do not.



There are players, like Ellis, who if given the green light and more possession of the ball, could post monster numbers but would that make them the best in the league or in the discussion? I don't think so but maybe you would make the argument.

per game numbers are for 1st graders. You obviously don't understand advanced stats, and I am going out on a limb that even when you do, you will cast them aside because they show Kobe was really never the easy choice as the best player in the NBA.

albertc86
08-16-2011, 09:28 PM
Then I suppose when your boy LeBron and the rest of the league were calling Kobe the best in the league, they were just lying, right?

I'll tell you the obvious difference between them and you in this argument. They played against him and do you think they followed his stats? They weren't judging his greatness by his numbers.

Hawkeye15
08-16-2011, 09:35 PM
Then I suppose when your boy LeBron and the rest of the league were calling Kobe the best in the league, they were just lying, right?

I'll tell you the obvious difference between them and you in this argument. They played against him and do you think they followed his stats? They weren't judging his greatness by his numbers.

Young players coming into the league want what Kobe has. Rings, and accolades. The difference isn't a big one, even though subjective students of basketball can clearly see LeBron has been the best player for 3 years.

If I were a young player, coming into the league 5 years ago, I would also admire Kobe's work ethic, success, awards, accolades, etc. But it doesn't change the fact that as students of the game, we can remove envy, homerism, and outright misundertanding.

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 11:37 PM
You said he has been THE best player in the last 5-7 years. Now you say he was THE best 5-7 years ago. You mention some random, biased, coaches poll that holds no weight.

If there are so many ways to stop him, and since you know how easy it is, maybe you know something that nobody else in the world has figured out. He was lackluster in (much of) the Dallas series, but I'm sure that he's played more than 6 games in his life... I love how selective your memory is!

Nobody said that Kobe has never dominated games before. I don't know why you're telling me this.

Yes the Big Three Celtics did win the ship in their first year. They had far greater balance on their roster, and didn't exactly go Fo' Fo' Fo' Fo' in the playoffs. I don't understand how you can **** on LeBron for not duplicating what the Celtics did in 08. If you want to judge a player on ONE postseason (which at the start of the season many believed going to the finals would be overachieving) than I'm fine with that. One could point out how much the Lakers underachieved this past postseason, or how they got destroyed in 08 to the Celtics, or how awful Kobe played in his first finals, but for sure you would find "excuses" (as you like to put it when in reference to LeBron).

See thats the difference between me and a lot of people here.. Im not gonna make excuses for Kobe's ****** play. I personally dont believe he played "******" in his first finals. He did in the Detroit finals. But the finals against the Pacers, i thought he played pretty damn good. I bought up the Celtics because i dont think their roster was more balanced than the heats roster talent wise. Its just those celtics had something that only D.Wade has on the heat, thats heart buddy. They all wanted to win. And they did what it took. They beat the hell out of the soft *** Lakers that year. Yea, my Lakers played soft. Its ok, they came back the next 2 years and did what they had to do.. And im not judging Lebron on one postseason. I saw him clam up against the magic when they decided to play zone and defend him with big bodies. You remember that series right? The one where the should have gotten swept but lebron made a full court shot. I saw him defer in the 4th quarter of a close out game against the Celtics in the SEMIfinals. Kobe gets passes from knowledgeable fans because they know he has Heart and he will be back.. Lebron hasnt proved that to anyone yet. Again there is no excuse for Kobe ****ing up. But i know he will make it up.. What about bron?

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 11:41 PM
Young players coming into the league want what Kobe has. Rings, and accolades. The difference isn't a big one, even though subjective students of basketball can clearly see LeBron has been the best player for 3 years.

If I were a young player, coming into the league 5 years ago, I would also admire Kobe's work ethic, success, awards, accolades, etc. But it doesn't change the fact that as students of the game, we can remove envy, homerism, and outright misundertanding.

What about coaches who call Kobe the best player? Former players? They were calling him that last year in fact. Im not gonna say right now because there just isnt a clear cut best player. Lebron puts up the best numbers and thats about it. It hasnt translated into anything. People were calling Tom Brady the best qb for years. Because he puts up numbers and wins championships.

nickdymez
08-16-2011, 11:54 PM
Do you know why? Because every time you get backed into a corner, you cling to Kobe's team success and try and apply it to his individual success, a continually failed argument. You can keep posting your arguments for Kobe, but they are the same old tired arguments that have been beaten up left and right, and when painted into a corner, you use the rings argument, or the hater argument. This is exactly why many of your arguments are not respected in the slightest. Coming off as a complete Kobe homer will only get you so far when you can't admit he has his limits.



Cavs with LeBron in 2 years- 121 wins. Without for a season- 19. You just built a case for LeBron being the best player by a landslide.



of course it would. Because you have absolutely zip idea how to evaluate a basketball player, yet in your mind you actually think you do a good job of doing so. This much is very obvious




what point are you trying to make here?



Who is making excuses? His Cleveland teams stood zero chance of winning a ring, and he choked in the finals, despite being the reason they were there. Nobody is making excuses for him. Should we make excuses for Kobe's horrendous series he has had over his career? Oh wait, he gets a bye because despite averaging 15 ppg on horrid shooting in his first finals, his TEAM won.



While I finally think LeBron has enough help, and there are no excuses anymore, you have got to be joking if you don't think Kobe's championships teams were far more talented and balanced from players 1-8, and its not even close.




Nobody is making excuses for LeBron. You are attempting to use a 6 game sample size. I just pointed out that Kobe has played terrible in multiple series over his playoff career. Hell, even game 6 of the 2010 finals, Kobe's team kept it close while he sucked the entire floor up, so when he actually hit a few shots late, they won. LeBron has never had that luxury, until now. If you really think LeBron won't be hoisting up a championship trophy at some point, you are insane.


You call everyone who doesn't bow to Kobe a "hater". Dude, you exemplify more hate than most here when it comes to the NBA. To the point of the thread, if you don't agree the answer is Kobe, than come up with a real post to debate. Otherwise continue to be looked at as a complete Kobe homer with blue/gold sunglasses superglued to their eyes.

lmao. Lebron was the only player that left the cavs this year? Didnt the coach leave too?? hahahaha.. Come on man, your reaching...next...

I dont know how to evaluate according to PSD standards, your right.

His team stood 0 chance of winning a ring, yet they played in the weak east, won the most games, had the coach of the year, and the MVP? ok then.. Sounds like an excuse... Kobe in that game 7 (i think your referring to) had 10 points in the final 8 minutes, along with grabbing 15 boards and guarding Rondo.. The result? His team won.

Again, im no longer responding to posts that say Kobe only won because he had stacked teams. If you knew basketball you wouldnt say that.. Now Robert Horry only won because he had stacked teams...

And again, you dont have to bow down to Kobe, but you people do the same thing for Lebron. I dont care if you like Kobe or not, but as fan of the game like you claim, at least give him his due. And again, im a Laker Homer.

LakersMaster24
08-17-2011, 03:37 AM
I still don't understand why some Kobe fans can't get past the point that Kobe really never put up the numbers or individual level of play to be considered the clear cut best individual player in any year. The unique thing about Kobe, and what is going to make him a top 10 all time player, is the fact that he was able to be a top 3 player for a decade, which is nearly impossible to do.

LeBron on the other hand, has clearly been the best INDIVIDUAL (so many of you still can not separate this) player in the NBA for a minimum of 3 years now. And this is much easier to prove than attempting to prove Kobe was ever the best player in the league.

Be happy you got a top 10 player ever and a stacked roster with a great coach/owner. Isn't that enough? There is no reason to push a player so hard, who just doesn't have the individual numbers of some other guys

For the first time in my life I actually agree with you....almost. I still think Kobe was the best player in 2006 and 2008. But overall you are right.

juno10
08-17-2011, 03:45 AM
You were one of the stat lovers I was referring to. There's nothing wrong with following stats if you participate in fantasy leagues but it's pretty weak if you call yourself a fan of the actual game. Like I said, too many variables come into play when you start throwing numbers out there.

Star players differ from each other, supporting casts differ, the systems in which they play in are different and I can go all day.

Stats just don't tell you the whole story. A player's influence off the ball doesn't show up on the stat sheet.

Yes, LeBron's numbers were inflated but that's because they had to be and he had the ball the majority of the time. Obviously his numbers across the board are going to be really high. -That goes for any player who takes on the bulk of the work for their team.

Would you say someone like Monte Ellis was the best in the league if he led the league in scoring, and had 4 rebounds and assists, respectively? Because that's what you're doing if you're just basing your argument entirely on stats. There are players, like Ellis, who if given the green light and more possession of the ball, could post monster numbers but would that make them the best in the league or in the discussion? I don't think so but maybe you would make the argument.

well monta ellis would probably score those points very inefficiently

Kyben36
08-17-2011, 03:51 AM
Kobe has the easier Argument IMO, but I think Lebron is the better player. as soon as people think of Kobe, they think Clutch, while with Lebron, so far, he has done nothing to secure that type of reputation, thus, making Kobe with rings argument that much easier to confirm. thats not saying that Lebron isnt a better player, but for arguments sake, Kobe is easier to side with.

juno10
08-17-2011, 03:52 AM
lmao. Lebron was the only player that left the cavs this year? Didnt the coach leave too?? hahahaha.. Come on man, your reaching...next...

I dont know how to evaluate according to PSD standards, your right.

His team stood 0 chance of winning a ring, yet they played in the weak east, won the most games, had the coach of the year, and the MVP? ok then.. Sounds like an excuse... Kobe in that game 7 (i think your referring to) had 10 points in the final 8 minutes, along with grabbing 15 boards and guarding Rondo.. The result? His team won.

Again, im no longer responding to posts that say Kobe only won because he had stacked teams. If you knew basketball you wouldnt say that.. Now Robert Horry only won because he had stacked teams...

And again, you dont have to bow down to Kobe, but you people do the same thing for Lebron. I dont care if you like Kobe or not, but as fan of the game like you claim, at least give him his due. And again, im a Laker Homer.

why is saying kobe won because his teams were stacked a bad thing? mj won because his team was stacked, celtics won because their team was stacked, the lakers were indeed stacked because only the celtics were even remotely close in talent level, the talent level on that team just obliterated what ever the magic had in 2009 it was almost not fair looked like they didn't even break a sweat. again not a bad thing.

and oh yeah your obviously more of a kobe fan than laker fan which is probably why you hate on lebron so much

knightstemplar
08-17-2011, 05:07 AM
For the first time in my life I actually agree with you....almost. I still think Kobe was the best player in 2006 and 2008. But overall you are right.

who was better than kobe in 2007?

PinnacleFlash
08-17-2011, 05:16 AM
who was better than kobe in 2007?

One could argue Tim Duncan.

Xeroprime99
08-17-2011, 05:19 AM
Course Imma say Lebron, but not cause im def a kobe fan but seriously. Im not a stat guy. U can be a stat whore and ride a bench if ur doing it right. I think about it like this. Go outside the United States. Go Global. The World would agree on Lebron because The World only Cares for Winning when it comes to sports. Stats are for the Individual but whats the point in having all the stats if u've Never Won a title? if You Choke Both times you visited the Finals, If you gave up 2 years in a row (Vs Boston/Orlando) Kobe was Probably the Best in 06 and I still feel like that 2nd MVP nash stole They Robbed Kobe But like i said U dont win u dont get the Credit. 07 u could give it to Dirk if u want but then i'd be a contradiction (We all Remember GoldenState) So No Timmy will keep that. 08 to the 3party cause it took more then just KG, 09 Kobe(Quitters Dont deserve to say they were the best "Check my Stats" Really Could u at least be Orlando? , 10 Lebron he did his thing but again he choked. So what if Dalonte was smashin moms. 11 Dirk/Wade Baby BronBron has a problem with gettin it done deep in the Playoffs and to me That isnt a Trait of the "Best" Player. Hell Jordan Came back and Lost to Shaq in 94 but Hakeem was Clearly the Best Player and he got the ring that year to prove it. All in all, Kobe's time is runnin short because he's older young 01-03 Kobe would own this league. But I think Brons is Getting shorter simply because Young Talent is getting better, and Hungrier and as long as He's not winning titles they will gain confidence to back up their talents. Speaking of the Rose's and The Durants who smell blood for next years title

ragee
08-17-2011, 05:24 AM
There was a thread a while ago asking how many years Kobe was the best player in the league. I said 1-2.

I think he was the clear best in 2006. I think any time before that is a huge stretch...as he was awful in 2005, and Shaq was better up until that year for sure.

I think LeBron has been the consensus best player in the NBA the last 2, and probably three years.

So it's pretty even. I won't pick a side in 2009 (the side I picked at the time was Bron though).

2006: Kobe
2007: Duncan or Dirk
2008: Paul
2009: I do think it was LeBron, but it was pretty close. There was still a debate for sure
2010: LeBron: No longer a debate
2011: LeBron for the entire season, Dirk if you only care about the most important games of the season.

Fixed! :D

PinnacleFlash
08-17-2011, 05:25 AM
I could easily argue this....

best players in the league since 06

05-06 - Wade
06-07 - Duncan
07-08 - Kobe
08-09 - Kobe
09-10 - Kobe
10-11 - Dirk/Wade

No contradiction since I clearly value winning.

Xeroprime99
08-17-2011, 05:31 AM
Completely agree with that as well, it's honestly sad that kobe's peak was when shaq left and before gasol arrived, but like you said, laker fans should just be glad to have a top 10 player ever. :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

I dont see how people are saying He peaked when shaq left. he had only been in the league for 5 years up til that point. Are U kidding me? Jordan didnt get his first ring til he was 7 years in the game. and 37 when he won his last? Really Peaked at 22? U do know he was only 21/22 in 04/05 People seriously need to stop hating on a persons talent simply because they dont like that person for whatever reason.

nickdymez
08-17-2011, 07:47 AM
why is saying kobe won because his teams were stacked a bad thing? mj won because his team was stacked, celtics won because their team was stacked, the lakers were indeed stacked because only the celtics were even remotely close in talent level, the talent level on that team just obliterated what ever the magic had in 2009 it was almost not fair looked like they didn't even break a sweat. again not a bad thing.

and oh yeah your obviously more of a kobe fan than laker fan which is probably why you hate on lebron so much

you obviously dont know me

nickdymez
08-17-2011, 01:23 PM
I could easily argue this....

best players in the league since 06

05-06 - Wade
06-07 - Duncan
07-08 - Kobe
08-09 - Kobe
09-10 - Kobe
10-11 - Dirk/Wade

No contradiction since I clearly value winning.

And thats what the games about.. WINNING, not making excuses for LOSING..

Oski H
08-17-2011, 02:59 PM
The best player in the league doesnt have to win a ring..........Kobe was probably the best player in the league one year if that. Lebron has been the best player in the league for a while now. SIDENOTE....... DIRK was never the best player in the league

LakersMaster24
08-17-2011, 03:19 PM
who was better than kobe in 2007?

Like someone said, Tim Duncan. That was the last year of the dominant Duncan.

nickdymez
08-17-2011, 04:18 PM
Like someone said, Tim Duncan. That was the last year of the dominant Duncan.

Kobe was better.. Better numbers, team had a better record, his team beat tims team in the wcf.. Kobe was better...

:edit: lakers didnt play the spurs that year im the wcf...

Da Knicks
08-17-2011, 04:52 PM
rings=team play so therefore i would say kobe would be easier to put as not being the best player.

Hawkeye15
08-17-2011, 04:56 PM
Kobe was better.. Better numbers, team had a better record, his team beat tims team in the wcf.. Kobe was better...

:edit: lakers didnt play the spurs that year im the wcf...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=duncati01&y1=2007&p2=bryanko01&y2=2007

I will take 06-07' Duncan over Kobe. Their regular season is a toss up, but Kobe was knocked out in round 1, and Duncan had much better numbers on his way to a championship in the playoffs.

faze38
08-17-2011, 05:00 PM
PER and every other advanced stat is cool but at the end of the day the game is played for rings. So considering that Kobe has 2 with out Shaq I have to say I would have to say it's easier to argue that Lebron hasn't been the best.

nickdymez
08-17-2011, 05:04 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=duncati01&y1=2007&p2=bryanko01&y2=2007

I will take 06-07' Duncan over Kobe. Their regular season is a toss up, but Kobe was knocked out in round 1, and Duncan had much better numbers on his way to a championship in the playoffs.

I was talking 07-08 kobe and duncan.