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SteBO
08-13-2011, 09:49 AM
RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.
NO POSTING in your FORUM, VOTE for this GUY. We had problems last time with it and NO POSTING in someone Else's Forum to VOTE for a certain player.


Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.


Voting for #22 has concluded and PSD's Official #22 NBA Player of all time is....

Dirk Nowitzki


Top 3 Voters


Dirk Nowitzki = 32 votes
Isiah Thomas = 18 votes
John Havlicek = 9 votes


The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)
20. Kevin Garnett (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641975)
21. LeBron James (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511)
22. Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643161)

Voting will now begin for the #23 NBA Player All Time


NOTE: You can only nominate one player and that player had to be an allstar multiple times at least probably at least 3 times at a minimum. The player who has the most nomination votes will be added to the next poll. Anyone who nominates more than one player there nomination will be disregarded.


2nd NOTE: Have seen a lot of posters just vote, but not make a single comment in the thread on there choice. We need you to participate and say why you chose who you did. Basically support it. If not, then don't see why your vote should count.

Khalifa21
08-13-2011, 12:09 PM
Bob Pettit again... Until he finally gets the recognition he deserves :sigh:

Hustlenomics
08-13-2011, 12:12 PM
Allen Iverson

TheChamp
08-13-2011, 12:50 PM
Pettit, and how long will this list go on for?

Chacarron
08-13-2011, 12:56 PM
Bob Pettit.

RZZZA
08-13-2011, 12:59 PM
maybe we should vote for the guy with 6 championships over guys with zero championships. Just a thought.

LAKERMANIA
08-13-2011, 01:22 PM
Havlicek

Khalifa21
08-13-2011, 01:29 PM
maybe we should vote for the guy with 6 championships over guys with zero championships. Just a thought.

Maybe we should vote for the guy with 7 championships over guys with 6 championships... Or maybe how many rings you have on your fingers isn't the be all and end all of where you should rank players in the history of a team game? Just a thought.

MacFitz92
08-13-2011, 01:57 PM
I guess Fisher is a better point guard than Stockton then :shrug:

LAKERMANIA
08-13-2011, 02:02 PM
Maybe we should vote for the guy with 7 championships over guys with 6 championships... Or maybe how many rings you have on your fingers isn't the be all and end all of where you should rank players in the history of a team game? Just a thought.

Well we are ranking greatest PLAYERS of all time... Its an individual thing... and Winning titles as you lead them there multiple times has more weight than season stats that dont get you anywhere

Geargo Wallace
08-13-2011, 02:04 PM
Pettit, and how long will this list go on for?

til the lockout ends!

NBAfan4life
08-13-2011, 02:05 PM
Pettit. I will be voting for Pettit until he earns a spot on our list.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-13-2011, 02:23 PM
Well we are ranking greatest PLAYERS of all time... Its an individual thing... and Winning titles as you lead them there multiple times has more weight than season stats that dont get you anywhere

Well in that case, Havlicek > Kobe, Kareem, Magic, Bird etc.

Oops, maybe that doesn't quite work.

Khalifa21
08-13-2011, 03:44 PM
Well in that case, Havlicek > Kobe, Kareem, Magic, Bird etc.

Oops, maybe that doesn't quite work.

Thanks for saving me the time.

ghettosean
08-13-2011, 04:05 PM
Maybe we should vote for the guy with 7 championships over guys with 6 championships... Or maybe how many rings you have on your fingers isn't the be all and end all of where you should rank players in the history of a team game? Just a thought.
Well THE LIST is kind of a joke I mean Lebron is the 21st player of all time... Really?!? I mean Steve Nash has more MVP titles than him beyond being knocked out of the finals what has Lebron done to earn the respect of 21st player of all time.

There are just a lot of people who are just looking at todays players and voting them greatest of all time instead of the bigger picture.

SAD!

Eagles710
08-13-2011, 04:30 PM
This list may possibly be the worst ranking i have ever seen

Geargo Wallace
08-13-2011, 04:45 PM
Well THE LIST is kind of a joke I mean Lebron is the 21st player of all time... Really?!? I mean Steve Nash has more MVP titles than him beyond being knocked out of the finals what has Lebron done to earn the respect of 21st player of all time.

There are just a lot of people who are just looking at todays players and voting them greatest of all time instead of the bigger picture.

SAD!

LeBron has 2 MVP awards (same as Nash), which is more than most ppl on this list. LeBron has a lot of great individual awards already in his career. He's been the best player in the world for the last 3/4 years. I don't know how you can belittle what he has accomplished as a player. It seems the only basketball of LeBron's that you've watched are his 2 finals appearances.

Knick Killer
08-13-2011, 05:07 PM
I nominate Reggie Miller again!

RZZZA
08-13-2011, 05:11 PM
Maybe we should vote for the guy with 7 championships over guys with 6 championships... Or maybe how many rings you have on your fingers isn't the be all and end all of where you should rank players in the history of a team game? Just a thought.

I pretty much disagree completely, When a guy wins 6 championships we really need to recognize that and put him ahead of the guy who won zero championships.

Dr.J>YOU
08-13-2011, 05:22 PM
maybe we should vote for the guy with 6 championships over guys with zero championships. Just a thought.

Why should a guy who won all his titles as the 2nd best on his team and never won league or finals mvp go ahead of a guy who won multiple titles as the man and/or league mvp's?

RZZZA
08-13-2011, 05:38 PM
I don't really have an answer to that, I just saw that Scottie Pippen was still on the board and guys like Dirk and Lebron were being voted ahead of him, and I thought it was really strange.

but if you're basing this off of stats and individual performance it makes sense, sorry for interrupting, go back to what you were doing.

Khalifa21
08-13-2011, 06:09 PM
I don't really have an answer to that, I just saw that Scottie Pippen was still on the board and guys like Dirk and Lebron were being voted ahead of him, and I thought it was really strange.

but if you're basing this off of stats and individual performance it makes sense, sorry for interrupting, go back to what you were doing.

So you think Pippen should be ahead of Barkley? Malone? Stockton? You think Rodman should be ahead of KG and Dirk? You think James Worthy should be ahead of LeBron James?

When discussing the greatest players of all-time, using championships as the main measuring stick is gonna leave you with a lot of players who have been very fortunate to have great teammates at the top of the list. Robert Horry (7), Derek Fisher (5), KC Jones (8), Michael Cooper (5), Kurt Rambis (4).. All guys that were solid players but due to being in the right place at the right time have more rings than Hakeem (2), Bird (3), Robertson (1), Barkley (0), Malone (0), Stockton (0), West (1).

I'm not saying Pippen is in the same category as the Horry's, Fisher's etc. but using the argument of him having 6 rings, even as a massive factor on those championship teams just isn't enough. You have to look at his personal numbers, accolades etc. and at the moment those just don't stand up to the other players left on the board. How many titles do you think Scottie would've won if he had never been traded by the Sonics? I can guarantee it wouldn't have been 6...

You have to look more at individual awards and success than team accolades when deciding the ranking in these kind of things. Championships are an important factor but when they're put into context they can lose their value. Horry's 7 titles will never be seen as more impressive than MJ's 6 even if he has more... Fisher's 5 don't have the same value as Hakeem's 2. When it's an INDIVIDUAL ranking, these TEAM awards have even less to do with it in my opinion. It's not just being based off stats, well i'm not basing it purely of stats... I can't speak for the hundreds of other people voting on here. I'm making an informed decision after looking at all the criteria for the players and using my own opinions and knowledge to judge the value of championships, MVP's, scoring titles, all-star appearances etc.

RZZZA
08-13-2011, 06:19 PM
you're right, you've convinced me. I'm wrong, you're right.

after all, Babe Ruth is considered the best baseball player of all time even though Yogi Berra won more championships

DR_1
08-13-2011, 06:59 PM
Baylor and then Petit. Baylor gets no love.

tredigs
08-13-2011, 07:13 PM
Baylor and then Petit. Baylor gets no love.

Hondo and Baylor's a pretty good argument I think. But you're right, Baylor hasn't had anyone get his back yet. Anyway, I'm glad Pettit's going here (wish he went earlier in Mikan's slot - if not sooner, but whatever).

Patssox I saw your last post yesterday on Dirk > Pettit and thought it was a pretty good argument, except it really does fall apart (like you alluded I think) when you consider that the metrics for the stats you were using didn't all exist in Pettit's day (except in some local papers). Which is where dominance relative to their competition becomes more relevant. And in that sense, I still think it's Pettit pretty comfortably.

Stack_NJNets
08-13-2011, 07:21 PM
Bob

dev0
08-14-2011, 06:02 PM
same argument from me all over again. Bob Pettit's stats are off the charts, but biased for the era he played in. Scottie Pippen is a more talented player and would match up better against modern competition. If I were to have a time machine and only be able to go back in time once to bring either Pettit or Pippen to the modern era to help my team, I would take Pippen 100%. "Best of all time" can be defined many ways, this list is like a lifetime achievement award- who had the better career > who was actually better at basketball from a modern perspective

Swashcuff
08-14-2011, 06:16 PM
So you think Pippen should be ahead of Barkley? Malone? Stockton? You think Rodman should be ahead of KG and Dirk? You think James Worthy should be ahead of LeBron James?

When discussing the greatest players of all-time, using championships as the main measuring stick is gonna leave you with a lot of players who have been very fortunate to have great teammates at the top of the list. Robert Horry (7), Derek Fisher (5), KC Jones (8), Michael Cooper (5), Kurt Rambis (4).. All guys that were solid players but due to being in the right place at the right time have more rings than Hakeem (2), Bird (3), Robertson (1), Barkley (0), Malone (0), Stockton (0), West (1).

I'm not saying Pippen is in the same category as the Horry's, Fisher's etc. but using the argument of him having 6 rings, even as a massive factor on those championship teams just isn't enough. You have to look at his personal numbers, accolades etc. and at the moment those just don't stand up to the other players left on the board. How many titles do you think Scottie would've won if he had never been traded by the Sonics? I can guarantee it wouldn't have been 6...

You have to look more at individual awards and success than team accolades when deciding the ranking in these kind of things. Championships are an important factor but when they're put into context they can lose their value. Horry's 7 titles will never be seen as more impressive than MJ's 6 even if he has more... Fisher's 5 don't have the same value as Hakeem's 2. When it's an INDIVIDUAL ranking, these TEAM awards have even less to do with it in my opinion. It's not just being based off stats, well i'm not basing it purely of stats... I can't speak for the hundreds of other people voting on here. I'm making an informed decision after looking at all the criteria for the players and using my own opinions and knowledge to judge the value of championships, MVP's, scoring titles, all-star appearances etc.

:worthy:

Great post.

NYKalltheway
08-14-2011, 06:45 PM
I missed #20, #21, #22 voting.. seems I made an impact in "electing" the actual best fits in most occasions :p Wonder why Dirk and Lebron are above Rick Barry, Havlicek, Isiah, Frazier, Drexler and quite a few others... Oh well, at least people aren't getting paid for these rankings, it'd be wasted money with some of the choices :D

Hellcrooner
08-14-2011, 07:08 PM
I missed #20, #21, #22 voting.. seems I made an impact in "electing" the actual best fits in most occasions :p Wonder why Dirk and Lebron are above Rick Barry, Havlicek, Isiah, Frazier, Drexler and quite a few others... Oh well, at least people aren't getting paid for these rankings, it'd be wasted money with some of the choices :D

dont ask questions when the answers could get people banned. :p

Swashcuff
08-14-2011, 07:10 PM
Well THE LIST is kind of a joke I mean Lebron is the 21st player of all time... Really?!? I mean Steve Nash has more MVP titles than him beyond being knocked out of the finals what has Lebron done to earn the respect of 21st player of all time.

There are just a lot of people who are just looking at todays players and voting them greatest of all time instead of the bigger picture.

SAD!

This is the list of the other site who is currently doing the same ranking

1) Michael Jordan
2) Bill Russell
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) Magic Johnson
5) Wilt Chamberlain
6) Larry Bird
7) Shaquille O'Neal
8) Tim Duncan
9) Hakeem Olajuwon
10) Kobe Bryant
11) Julius Erving
12) Karl Malone
13) Kevin Garnett
14) Oscar Robertson
15) Jerry West
16) Moses Malone
17) Dirk Nowitzki
18) LeBron James
19) Bob Pettit
20) Charles Barkley
21) David Robinson
22) Dwyane Wade
23) Walt Frazier

and currently Steve Nash is leading the way for 24.

Their voting system is different however. They have 41 or so chosen posters who do all the voting/nominating with no polls so each poster is obligated to explain their reasoning behind each of their choices a problem we are faced with on here.

I must say that many of those posters do indeed have a great understanding and appreciation for the history of the game, and average age seems to be twice that of PSD posters. However a lot of their voting is really questionable, I mean seriously Steve Nash at 24 and Walt Frazier at 23? That site tends to follow the JB theory as well HCA and Winning & usually does the trick for the vast majority of their posters. They also seldom use statistical references in making their choices.

If you ask me thus far despite the fact that our posters are somewhat irresponsible especially considering the many dupe accounts that we've seen in these votings I still think our list is better than the other site's.

PS they excluded Mikan from their voting as well.

KnicksorBust
08-14-2011, 08:18 PM
Bob Cousy

tredigs
08-14-2011, 08:32 PM
Bob Cousy

Not even close... but I'd like to hear the argument.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2011, 09:32 PM
Pettit fell this far???? Wow.

I think KG is too low as well, but whatever. And how in the hell does Iverson have 6 votes while I type this??????????? He shouldn't even enter the discussion until #40 starts, and that is being nice

Chronz
08-14-2011, 09:40 PM
I missed #20, #21, #22 voting.. seems I made an impact in "electing" the actual best fits in most occasions :p Wonder why Dirk and Lebron are above Rick Barry, Havlicek, Isiah, Frazier, Drexler and quite a few others... Oh well, at least people aren't getting paid for these rankings, it'd be wasted money with some of the choices :D

Isiah and clyde are easy to understand, there werent any good arguments for them. Hondo and Elgin should be gone soon. It should be interesting to see if Hondo gos before Elgin despite the fact that when the 2 were playing nobody ever put hondo in his league.

Hellcrooner
08-14-2011, 10:18 PM
This is the list of the other site who is currently doing the same ranking

1) Michael Jordan
2) Bill Russell
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) Magic Johnson
5) Wilt Chamberlain
6) Larry Bird
7) Shaquille O'Neal
8) Tim Duncan
9) Hakeem Olajuwon
10) Kobe Bryant
11) Julius Erving
12) Karl Malone
13) Kevin Garnett
14) Oscar Robertson
15) Jerry West
16) Moses Malone
17) Dirk Nowitzki
18) LeBron James
19) Bob Pettit
20) Charles Barkley
21) David Robinson
22) Dwyane Wade
23) Walt Frazier

and currently Steve Nash is leading the way for 24.

Their voting system is different however. They have 41 or so chosen posters who do all the voting/nominating with no polls so each poster is obligated to explain their reasoning behind each of their choices a problem we are faced with on here.

I must say that many of those posters do indeed have a great understanding and appreciation for the history of the game, and average age seems to be twice that of PSD posters. However a lot of their voting is really questionable, I mean seriously Steve Nash at 24 and Walt Frazier at 23? That site tends to follow the JB theory as well HCA and Winning & usually does the trick for the vast majority of their posters. They also seldom use statistical references in making their choices.

If you ask me thus far despite the fact that our posters are somewhat irresponsible especially considering the many dupe accounts that we've seen in these votings I still think our list is better than the other site's.

PS they excluded Mikan from their voting as well.`

dirk at 17 answere al uyou neeed to know botu the "knowledge" of that other site.

Chronz
08-15-2011, 12:17 AM
`

dirk at 17 answere al uyou neeed to know botu the "knowledge" of that other site.

You do realize nobody on this site believes you have the ability to rate Dirk objectively right. That site has several members I respect so you trying to diminish their intelligence means nothing to me and I'm sure several others.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-15-2011, 03:50 AM
`

dirk at 17 answere al uyou neeed to know botu the "knowledge" of that other site.

Let's skip the pretending to be objective about Dirk and just get straight to the point: Why don't you like Dirk?

I'm assuming it has something to do with the Spain-Germany rivalry? Maybe one between Pau and Dirk? Just curious because he seems to be a pretty nice guy. Not sure what your problem with him would be.

NYKalltheway
08-15-2011, 07:05 AM
I don't think there's a Spain-Germany rivalry :p
Italy-France
Italy-England
Italy-Germany
England-France
England-Germany
I can understand...
Spain-Germany have nothing against each other (except German banks facking Spanish and European economy generally as well as a 2008 Euro final in soccer and 2005 Euro semi final in basketball :p )

Hawkeye15
08-15-2011, 07:12 AM
`

dirk at 17 answere al uyou neeed to know botu the "knowledge" of that other site.

will you ever get over your deep seeded hatred for Dirk? It seriously clouds your evaluation ability when it comes to him

Swashcuff
08-15-2011, 10:16 AM
You do realize nobody on this site believes you have the ability to rate Dirk objectively right. That site has several members I respect so you trying to diminish their intelligence means nothing to me and I'm sure several others.

:nod:

They are knowledgeable. All have their biases and their own reasoning but from what I know none of them have blatant agendas against specific players like Crooner has against Dirk.

SteBO
08-15-2011, 10:29 AM
`

dirk at 17 answere al uyou neeed to know botu the "knowledge" of that other site.
You, sir, are a prime example of someone that his heels dug in the sand way too deep and I seriously question why you feel this way towards Dirk. It's one thing to disagree with them, but to sink so low to make backhanded insults towards their intelligence is just wrong and doesn't give anyone a reason to have a logical debate with you, especially on this topic. Sorry.....

ghettosean
08-15-2011, 12:11 PM
LeBron has 2 MVP awards (same as Nash), which is more than most ppl on this list. LeBron has a lot of great individual awards already in his career. He's been the best player in the world for the last 3/4 years. I don't know how you can belittle what he has accomplished as a player. It seems the only basketball of LeBron's that you've watched are his 2 finals appearances.
Dude are you kidding me?!? Can someone read my post and tell me where I said Lebron is cr@p!!! No where in my post did I say that. I said it once and I'll do it again...

What warrants him to be the #21 player of all time?!?

He has done squat to earn that recognition... There are players with multiple MVP's and championships that are getting no respect but Lebron is better?!?

Does this make sense to anyone???

Just to use your own logic against you --> Bob Pettit has 2 MVPS like Lebron but the only difference is he has a ring! John Havlicek has 6 championships but Lebron is better than him to ALL TIME!

Give me a break. I'll stand by what I said and that is people are looking at today's players and placing there votes based on that.

Just my opinion though can't wait for a response to these hard facts!

ghettosean
08-15-2011, 12:23 PM
Oh I just want to add some respect to "Geargo Wallace" you slammed my post and I'm slamming you back. All this means is that we are very passionate about basketball and want it back on time or earlier so we can talk trade *****.

I miss you NBA!!! If someone takes a hit on Stern I'll look the other way while shots are fired... LOL.

THE MTL
08-15-2011, 01:51 PM
OMG! Isiah Thomas! I've never seen Isiah ranked so low in anyone's list!

Hellcrooner
08-15-2011, 03:41 PM
sorry but you can accuse me of bias everything you want.

it still wont make Dirk the 17 player of all time.

And this list is making me sick and anger by the level of disrespect that people is bringing to the league history and the men that build it.

KnicksorBust
08-16-2011, 12:15 AM
Not even close... but I'd like to hear the argument.

The best guard on the planet for over a decade. He was the Babe Ruth of assists, leading the league by miles every year while finishing 2nd in ppg twice. Forget Tiny Archibald and his bs record on a losing team. Bob Cousy was a true leader on 6 championship teams.

JasonJohnHorn
08-16-2011, 12:37 AM
How does Iverson have more votes that Clyde Drexler?!?!?!?!?!?

Chronz
08-16-2011, 06:15 AM
sorry but you can accuse me of bias everything you want.

it still wont make Dirk the 17 player of all time.

And this list is making me sick and anger by the level of disrespect that people is bringing to the league history and the men that build it.

People more knowledgeable than you disagree, more importantly, theyve actually laid out their case for it.

You on the other hand have provided us with nothing, oh wait let me guess, you were around since the NBA's existence and have stored every game in your computer like brain right..... get a clue bro.

Them being before Dirk doesnt automatically make them better if anything it puts them at a disadvantage. In case you havent noticed, we have people from the 60's on the list already. Your getting mad because you have no way of debating against it.

BlondeBomber41
08-16-2011, 08:02 AM
Let's skip the pretending to be objective about Dirk and just get straight to the point: Why don't you like Dirk?

I'm assuming it has something to do with the Spain-Germany rivalry? Maybe one between Pau and Dirk? Just curious because he seems to be a pretty nice guy. Not sure what your problem with him would be.

He calls Dirk soft, and then when Dirk dominates Pau in the playoffs he claims it was because Pau was upset about his relationship. How soft can you be that you would let girl problems mess up your game?

He still to this day can't admit Dirk is a better player than Pau, also another dead giveaway that he is just a blind homer that shouldn't be taken seriously.

I'm just glad Dirk finally proved everyone wrong and will hopefully go down in history in the spot he deserves. He will never be a top 10 player in anyones eyes but no matter what he'll be one of the all time greats.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-16-2011, 12:13 PM
Hondo and Baylor's a pretty good argument I think. But you're right, Baylor hasn't had anyone get his back yet. Anyway, I'm glad Pettit's going here (wish he went earlier in Mikan's slot - if not sooner, but whatever).

Patssox I saw your last post yesterday on Dirk > Pettit and thought it was a pretty good argument, except it really does fall apart (like you alluded I think) when you consider that the metrics for the stats you were using didn't all exist in Pettit's day (except in some local papers). Which is where dominance relative to their competition becomes more relevant. And in that sense, I still think it's Pettit pretty comfortably.

Well, it's not just the numbers though. As I also pointed out, and have done so many times lol, Dirk does have that ring as the clear cut #1. In addition, as I mentioned he got to the Finals again, without your "typical" #2. Basically, both times, Dirk's #2 was Terry (or Howard in 06 + Chandler this past year?). Thats a pretty impressive accomplishment IMO. He's taken 2 different teams w/o a top 15 player at the time on the team to the Finals. Typically, you see most championship caliber teams loaded with front level talent. The Mavs have always been more deep. I just find that a little more impressive than Pettit's run where he clearly had some HOF talent. (I realize Kidd is going to the Hall, but he's well past his prime).

As for dominance relative to competition, I believe both were the 3rd best at their position in their time. Pettit behind Russell and Wilt. And Dirk behind KG and Duncan (although you could make the argument that Dirk is better than KG but it'd probably fall apart after the word defense is mentioned). If you include other positions, you have West and Oscar, putting Pettit at about 5th in his era. For Dirk, you add Kobe and Shaq, also putting him 5th (am I forgetting someone? don't think so). So in that regards, they look pretty equal.

KnicksorBust
08-16-2011, 06:57 PM
If Pettit and Mikan are going up on the list. #24 should be Cousy.

tev_dodd
08-16-2011, 07:34 PM
Jason Kidd...didn't get to see some of the others play, but I'll take Kidd's all-around game over the ones I did.

KnicksorBust
08-16-2011, 11:04 PM
Cousy.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-16-2011, 11:23 PM
If Pettit and Mikan are going up on the list. #24 should be Cousy.

Huh? Pettit played in the era of Russell and Wilt. Ouch. Despite the intense competition, still put up good numbers.

Mikan deserved to be nowhere near that high. He "dominated" (although not really since his shooting %'s stunk) midgets and played for 7 measly years, only of which 2 were really "dominant".

Cousy is not in the same boat as Pettit as far as competition at the position goes. Cousy had no one for competition at his position. Pettit had 2 of the 3 greatest Centers ever as competition. Not at all the same.

PS- Since tredigs has been campaigning so hard for Pettit, I'll let him get into the details of why he deserves to be higher then Cousy.

I know you like Cousy's assist #'s but what about his league average shooting %'s?

Also, wouldn't the babe ruth of assists be Stockton? The guy who had actual PG competition and still led the league every year?

PatsSoxKnicks
08-17-2011, 04:47 AM
Posted this in the Knicks re-draft forum:


Well I calculated out (its an estimate, but I'm positive its an accurate one) the league average TS% for each year. So if anyone wants to use that for guys who played in the 50s to measure their dominance relative to their peers, feel free to ask.

For example, Harry Gallatin in his 3 year peak, had a TS% about 10.8% above average, 8.0% above average and 9.6% above average. That is quite the large gap and clearly shows that the guy was one of the most gifted scorers relative to his peers.

For reference, that's basically about the same difference as Amare's TS% from the league average in 06-07. Or to put it more simply, it's typically the difference between the league leader in TS% and the league average in TS%.

For Gallatin, only Ed Macauley and Neil Johnston were at a comparable level in that 3 year stretch in terms of TS%.

Another interesting thing I found was that the league average assists per shot attempt has been pretty much the same throughout the whole league history, with the exception of 57-71. Interestingly from about 51-57, the league average assists per shot attempt was around the same as it is now. For 57-71, there was a slight drop in assists per shot attempt. My guess would be that the 24 second shot clock had something to do with that. The drop in assists per shot attempt started around (either 1 year earlier or later, don't remember) the time the 24 second shot clock was introduced. My guess is that when the clock came into affect, players felt more rushed and felt they needed to get a shot off quicker, which led to more one on one play and less passing (maybe they felt passing took too much time). Over time, the assists per shot attempt began to increase to around the levels we have now (which are actually around the same as post 71). Another point of increased assists per shot attempt was after the addition of the 3 point line, which makes sense.

So if you're wondering if a guy who racked up more assists in the 50s (pre 57) is as valuable as one who plays now, the answer is yes. The only thing thats changed is that players are making the shots at a higher rate now.

Edit: Don't know why I'm doing assists per shot attempt (could serve as a substitute for potential assists though), it should be assists per FG. Doesn't really make a difference though, it's mostly the same, with the exception being that pre 57, A LOT of made baskets were assisted on. Over 70%. Same thing with the shot clock applies I would say. And again, same with the 3 point shot. The assists per FG has been on a slight decline since about 02-03 though.

This does make you wonder if someone like Cousy has an inflated assist total though. A lot of his high assist numbers came pre 57 when any time a basket was made, it was pretty much an assisted basket. Very little one on one. With no shot clock, it makes sense. Players would just pass it around until someone was in a very good position to put the ball in the hoop.

So yeah, I guess a generalization would be if anyone has a player pre 57, they're probably less likely to be able to take you one on one and score but more willing to pass it.

Anyways, don't know if anyone found that at all interesting.

So basically, Cousy did benefit from playing in an inflated era for assists. However to be fair to him, 56% of his assists came after 57, when the assists per FG went down. Still, thats 44% coming in the inflated era. So his assist totals look a little less impressive. But to stick with the baseball comparison, rather then the Babe Ruth of assists, it's like being the Bonds of Home Runs. You get lots in an inflated era.

Ebbs
08-17-2011, 05:02 AM
Didn't vote this one but nominate Dwight Howard. Best Center of our era

NYKalltheway
08-17-2011, 05:06 AM
Didn't vote this one but nominate Dwight Howard. Only Center of our era

fixed

NYKalltheway
08-17-2011, 05:10 AM
Petit barely makes top 25
Cousy probably won't
Drexler probably won't
Havlicek could, but only barely
Rick Barry probably won't
Elgin Baylor probably won't
Elvin Hayes not even on the options list... :facepalm:

Dirk, Lebron top 25
Kobe top 10

where has the world gone to?

PatsSoxKnicks
08-17-2011, 12:20 PM
Petit barely makes top 25
Cousy probably won't
Drexler probably won't
Havlicek could, but only barely
Rick Barry probably won't
Elgin Baylor probably won't
Elvin Hayes not even on the options list... :facepalm:

Dirk, Lebron top 25
Kobe top 10

where has the world gone to?

You really don't like today's game huh? You do have to wonder though, if you put all of those guys in today's game, would any be "stars"?

Shamar81
08-17-2011, 12:21 PM
How is the Big O not in the top Ten? He averaged a triple double for 2 years. Im going Isiah Thomas. Lets be honest, he was on the only team to beat Magic, and Bird, in their primes.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-17-2011, 02:50 PM
Looks like Hondo could win the next poll. But for the love of god, lets hope that neither Isiah or Iverson win the next one. Does anyone think Gus Williams is worthy of being anywhere near this high? Well Isiah is a slightly better version of Gus Williams. And Iverson? No.

Hellcrooner
08-17-2011, 03:21 PM
^gus williams?



Not over Dolph Schayes.
Not over NAte Thurmond.
Not over Artis gilmore
Not over Nate archibald.
Not over Earl Monroe
Not over Greer
Not over Lenny Wilkens
Not over Downton fred Brown.
not over...........and im just thinking players before 1980......

and btw Iverson being already an option is an Insult to intelligence.

Swashcuff
08-17-2011, 03:34 PM
I DO NOT appreciate the Allen Iverson bashing. :mad:

Hellcrooner
08-17-2011, 03:37 PM
I DO NOT appreciate the Allen Iverson bashing. :mad:

of course.

you are a fan :p.

lets bring the Advanced stats guru and see what they say...

PatsSoxKnicks
08-17-2011, 03:46 PM
^gus williams?



Not over Dolph Schayes.
Not over NAte Thurmond.
Not over Artis gilmore
Not over Nate archibald.
Not over Earl Monroe
Not over Greer
Not over Lenny Wilkens
Not over Downton fred Brown.
not over...........and im just thinking players before 1980......

and btw Iverson being already an option is an Insult to intelligence.

Yeah, that might be true. So then why are people voting for Isiah this high? Gus Williams is the statistical equivalent of Isiah. Gus Williams also led a team to a championship (beating Elvin Hayes and Wes Unseld's Bullets) and lost in 7 games the other year (basically 1 game away from having 2 championships like Isiah).

The only difference is that Isiah went to way more All-Star games because there wasn't much competition at the PG spot in the East (or guard spot). Heck, Gus Williams has 2 All-NBA teams, something which Isiah doesn't have any. Gus isn't even that far off from Isiah in MVP Award Shares, despite playing less seasons. Both finished as high as 5th in the MVP voting.

Isiah is better but barely. So if Gus deserves to be nowhere near here, neither does Isiah.

And yes, Iverson doesn't deserve to be anywhere near here. I said that. Probably doesn't even deserve to be an option as you pointed out.

Swashcuff
08-17-2011, 03:46 PM
of course.

you are a fan :p.

lets bring the Advanced stats guru and see what they say...

I know what he's going to say and I will completely agree with him. A.I. is NOT a top 30 player. However I don't appreciate the bashing of him.

The posters that have voted for him have been voting for quite some time and they are a select few. They will not sway the vote in A.I.'s favour before we finish the top 30. I will not join them either.

He's still pound for pound one of the best and despite all of his off the court and selfish ways one of the greatest competitors ever.

KnicksorBust
08-17-2011, 11:55 PM
Posted this in the Knicks re-draft forum:



So basically, Cousy did benefit from playing in an inflated era for assists. However to be fair to him, 56% of his assists came after 57, when the assists per FG went down. Still, thats 44% coming in the inflated era. So his assist totals look a little less impressive. But to stick with the baseball comparison, rather then the Babe Ruth of assists, it's like being the Bonds of Home Runs. You get lots in an inflated era.

Inflated stats? What? His career began in the pre-shot clock era when nobody scored more than 75-85 points a game. Even when the game radically changed he still continued to lead the assist category while being a top scorer. He won eight straight assist titles and four times finished with at least 30 percent more assists than the number two guy. That's why he's the Babe Ruth of assists. He dominated the category. When he retired with 6,945 assists the next highest guy (Dick McGuire) only had 4,205. He wasn't just a little bit better than his peers, he was significantly better.

Swashcuff
08-18-2011, 12:33 AM
Inflated stats? What? His career began in the pre-shot clock era when nobody scored more than 75-85 points a game. Even when the game radically changed he still continued to lead the assist category while being a top scorer. He won eight straight assist titles and four times finished with at least 30 percent more assists than the number two guy. That's why he's the Babe Ruth of assists. He dominated the category. When he retired with 6,945 assists the next highest guy (Dick McGuire) only had 4,205. He wasn't just a little bit better than his peers, he was significantly better.

I think you just proved his entire point however bro.

There was no competition for Cousy. I mean honestly is there another PG from Cousy's time who we can say is a top 100 player all time? or even a top 25 PG of all time?

I understand your POV of Cousy dominating his peers but in actuality were Cousy's peers that good to begin with? He was ahead of his time, cool.

I don't think McGuire, Andy Phillip, Paul Seymour (I am a 76ers fan), Slater Martin etc are even in my top 250 players of all time while Cousy is top 50. I honestly think you made patsSOXknicks' point for him with that post.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-18-2011, 02:54 AM
Inflated stats? What? His career began in the pre-shot clock era when nobody scored more than 75-85 points a game. Even when the game radically changed he still continued to lead the assist category while being a top scorer. He won eight straight assist titles and four times finished with at least 30 percent more assists than the number two guy. That's why he's the Babe Ruth of assists. He dominated the category. When he retired with 6,945 assists the next highest guy (Dick McGuire) only had 4,205. He wasn't just a little bit better than his peers, he was significantly better.

And your entire post has nothing to do with what I said (nor did it disprove it). Again, I'll repeat.

The league average assist per FG in the pre shot clock era was up over .70 (the highest rate its ever been), meaning 70% of baskets were assisted. This basically tells you that there was much more passing in the league back then (relative to made baskets). In fact, I've read that pre-shot clock, players used to just keep passing the ball around and around until someone got a decent look. It was very slow paced but there were lots of opportunities to get assists since as I said earlier, basically everyone shot off an assist.

Maybe I'm not explaining it right but I really don't know how I could explain this any simpler.

PS- What about the rest of him as a player? And his league average TS%?

Also, what Swash said about his lack of PG competition (which I believe I said earlier in the thread)

KnicksorBust
08-18-2011, 09:38 AM
If you guys want to re-post, we'll continue this in the other thread.

JordansBulls
08-18-2011, 11:15 AM
^gus williams?



Not over Dolph Schayes.
Not over NAte Thurmond.
Not over Artis gilmore
Not over Nate archibald.
Not over Earl Monroe
Not over Greer
Not over Lenny Wilkens
Not over Downton fred Brown.
not over...........and im just thinking players before 1980......

and btw Iverson being already an option is an Insult to intelligence.

Every player that has won league mvp should be on there except Rose because he has only been in the league 3 years.