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View Full Version : Vernon Wells best blue jay CF?



nithanyo
08-13-2011, 01:15 AM
Is he the best centre fielder in Blue Jays history. He's pretty much first or second in every offensive category to go alongside a few Gold Gloves. IMO the best Centre Fielder in blue jays history

anotherqtip420
08-13-2011, 01:32 AM
I said no.Devo gets that honor for me

2009mvp
08-13-2011, 01:32 AM
White was a far, far (far) better fielder than Wells and had some pretty solid offensive seasons with the Jays. Really you could go either way, Wells had three fantastic years and some pretty poor ones and certainly has the counting stats on his side, but White was a key cog on two championship teams. I'd probably go with Wells too but it's not exactly a position stacked with all time great Jays.

nithanyo
08-13-2011, 02:11 AM
Wells injury filled 2008 season was better than any season white put out as a blue jay

Billyen
08-13-2011, 03:03 AM
With White out in CF and in the line up I was always relaxed. With Wells.. it was hot or cold. Devon was great.

ghost dog
08-13-2011, 04:22 AM
[QUOTE=anotherqtip420;18898988]I said no.Devo gets that honor for me[

x2

DVS
08-13-2011, 05:00 AM
Devon White for sure.

StayOnBoard
08-13-2011, 07:57 AM
I also have to say Devon White - that guy was amazing and so fun to watch.

Billyen
08-13-2011, 08:37 AM
I also have to say Devon White - that guy was amazing and so fun to watch.

I forgot to mention a classy guy and nice person.

ThunderZubb
08-13-2011, 09:29 AM
I voted Devon White as the greatest Centre Fielder in Jays History but Wells was the second best for me

Bob_at_york
08-13-2011, 10:20 AM
the instinct is to White... but it might have been Vernon. Their OBP was around the same. Vernon's slugging was of course better. Vernon's glove was great but he did decline in the last couple of years. I am not sure if Devo declined any.

Also want to throw Lloyd Moseby's name out there too.

Jamiecballer
08-13-2011, 10:57 AM
tough call between him and White. if Vernon had stayed healthy it would definitely be him. i don't know. maybe it's just that warm and fuzzy feeling surrounding the memories from that time as a jay fans that is clouding my judgement?

one thing i didn't realize was how good Devon White had already been in California before we picked him up. i remember their being questions about his attitude but i had no idea that he'd already won 2 gold gloves, been to an all-star game and posted a rookie season with 103 runs, 24 homers and almost 100 rbis.

what the hell were the Angels doing?

Spiderdan22
08-13-2011, 11:18 AM
Devon White...please close the discussion now.

Jay
08-13-2011, 11:36 AM
I'm not going to reward longevity.

Devon White, by a solid margin.

3mikee_
08-13-2011, 12:05 PM
Vernon definitely held his own, but White was better for sure..

nithanyo
08-13-2011, 12:34 PM
i dont understand. Its not even close. Wells was far better.

wells is second in team history in most offensive stats. he has a career .282 average as a blue jay. The highest White ever hit was .282. He's second in team home runs. He has 3 gold gloves. He's second in team history in RBI's. He had 4 seasons in which he had 97+ rbis. White never got above 60 rbis. White never got more than 17 home runs. Wells had 7 20+ and 4 25+ HR seasons.

Offensively Wells was far better than white.

Sure white won 5 gold gloves to vernons 3 but offensively Wells was far superior. Defensively White was better but Wells was a really good centre fielder too. Wells was a clubhouse leader. I was too young to know what kind of a clubhouse guy White was. But just look at the numbers. People are saying White based solely on the fact that 2 of the teams he played on won WS titles. Wells' numbers would have helped those teams more

lmallia
08-13-2011, 12:38 PM
i dont understand. Its not even close. Wells was far better.

wells is second in team history in most offensive stats. he has a career .282 average as a blue jay. The highest White ever hit was .282. He's second in team home runs. He has 3 gold gloves. He's second in team history in RBI's. He had 4 seasons in which he had 97+ rbis. White never got above 60 rbis. White never got more than 17 home runs. Wells had 7 20+ and 4 25+ HR seasons.

Offensively Wells was far better than white.

Sure white won 5 gold gloves to vernons 3 but offensively Wells was far superior. Defensively White was better but Wells was a really good centre fielder too. Wells was a clubhouse leader. I was too young to know what kind of a clubhouse guy White was. But just look at the numbers. People are saying White based solely on the fact that 2 of the teams he played on won WS titles. Wells' numbers would have helped those teams more

Totally this.

I feel like as fans we just make love to the '92/'93 guys. I mean awesome we won titles, but Manny Lee isn't better than Escobar (yes bad reference but Im sure my point was understood).

mike_noodles
08-13-2011, 12:50 PM
I'll take the Shaker, Lloyd Moseby for me guys.

fvfvfvff
08-13-2011, 01:04 PM
.

boilerguy2412
08-13-2011, 02:09 PM
NO, Otis Nixon is

ILDD
08-13-2011, 03:53 PM
Wells was a better offensive player than Devon was but Devon's defensive abilities make up for that shortfall - the best is Devon White.

I went and looked up some stats - over their Toronto careers, Wells' oWAR/162 is 3.6, White's is 3.3. dWAR/162 has Wells at 0.3, White at 2.0.

StealingSigns
08-13-2011, 03:58 PM
Devo for me.

McJoe
08-13-2011, 04:31 PM
White's 5 years in Toronto were nothing really to write home about other than the 2 world series of course. He wasn't a great hitter overall and didn't wow you with power. He won 5 gold gloves so that's got to mean something but Vernon got 3 too and was in contention a few other years before his defence seemingly left his game.

Its a shallow pool made up of players from bad teams but yeah Vernon is the best. The best player at each position in team history doesn't exactly have any super battles. The only other center fielder who might threaten is Lloyd Moseby who is like a .250 hitter with a career high 26 home runs.

Bottom line for me: Vernon's '02, '03, '05, '06, and '10 are the 5 best seasons by a Blue Jays center fielder and it isn't really close, thus its Vernon by a landslide. Only one that's close is Jose Cruz Jr's 30-30 season in 2001.

I ****ing hate Vernon Wells and no offence to nithanyo but your blind Vernon love posts are the worst posts you make from an otherwise very good poster but this is a silly question and the poll is flat out wrong. Vernon has done more damage in center field than Devon White could really even dream of.

scaramantula
08-13-2011, 04:59 PM
I am to young to have seen white play so i gotta go with Vernon

2009mvp
08-13-2011, 05:47 PM
i dont understand. Its not even close. Wells was far better.

wells is second in team history in most offensive stats. he has a career .282 average as a blue jay. The highest White ever hit was .282. He's second in team home runs. He has 3 gold gloves. He's second in team history in RBI's. He had 4 seasons in which he had 97+ rbis. White never got above 60 rbis. White never got more than 17 home runs. Wells had 7 20+ and 4 25+ HR seasons.

Offensively Wells was far better than white.

Sure white won 5 gold gloves to vernons 3 but offensively Wells was far superior. Defensively White was better but Wells was a really good centre fielder too. Wells was a clubhouse leader. I was too young to know what kind of a clubhouse guy White was. But just look at the numbers. People are saying White based solely on the fact that 2 of the teams he played on won WS titles. Wells' numbers would have helped those teams more

A) Was he? He "led" a clubhouse that we learned from Griffin was split into two cliques; the Wells/Hill/Millar circle and everybody else. The very same clubhouse that "revolted" against Cito late in '09 (and as much as I'm not a fan of Cito's strategy, there's no denying that pretty much all of his former players love the man). Not cool.

B) "Led" them to what exactly? A bunch of 3rd place finishes? Wells is symbolic of the last decade and a half of Jays baseball, good but never great. Now we're supposed to celebrate the mediocrity? Pass.


Totally this.

I feel like as fans we just make love to the '92/'93 guys. I mean awesome we won titles, but Manny Lee isn't better than Escobar (yes bad reference but Im sure my point was understood).

True. But there is something to be said about contributing to a World Series championship or two rather than a bunch of third place clubs. If it's close I'm giving it to the '92/'93 guys everytime. In this case I do think Wells has enough of an edge though, despite the huge defensive gap.

ghost dog
08-13-2011, 05:48 PM
I am to young to have seen white play so i gotta go with Vernon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL6XhZTMEj8&feature=player_detailpage

the_jon
08-13-2011, 06:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL6XhZTMEj8&feature=player_detailpage
LOL at one of the comments. "Bob Davidson ****ing the blue jays since 92"

Twitchy
08-13-2011, 06:28 PM
White's 5 years in Toronto were nothing really to write home about other than the 2 world series of course. He wasn't a great hitter overall and didn't wow you with power. He won 5 gold gloves so that's got to mean something but Vernon got 3 too and was in contention a few other years before his defence seemingly left his game.

Gotta disagree with you. White was significantly above average 2 years, league average twice, and only below average once. His RC+ (OPS+ but with wOBA not OPS) is 122, 115, 100, 100 and 94. For a GG CF that's very, very good.


I ****ing hate Vernon Wells and no offence to nithanyo but your blind Vernon love posts are the worst posts you make from an otherwise very good poster but this is a silly question and the poll is flat out wrong. Vernon has done more damage in center field than Devon White could really even dream of.

Between 1991-1995 (White's tenure as a Jay) White ranked 3rd among all CF's in WAR, and had a 108 RC+. Between 2002-2010 (Wells first and last full seasons as a Jay) Wells ranked 8th in WAR at 25.4 and had a 109 RC+.

As crazy as it sounds, White was just as good a hitter during his time here as Vernon - except he played better defense. Wells wins on counting stats and longevity, but it's really not that clear cut.

I don't know who I'd pick, I'm just pointing out this is a lot closer than people give White credit for.

H-MYK
08-13-2011, 08:18 PM
I find Devon White to be the better CF

GNick
08-13-2011, 08:25 PM
Is he the best centre fielder in Blue Jays history. He's pretty much first or second in every offensive category to go alongside a few Gold Gloves. IMO the best Centre Fielder in blue jays history

In his good years Wells was our best but he had so many bad seasons mixed in he definitely would not be my top center fielder here. I would go with Devo. Wells' contract was so high it was near impossible to move him he ended up playing here so long is why he holds so many offensive team records.

Rotator
08-13-2011, 10:19 PM
Forgetting all the advanced numbers that might prove me wrong, I too believe Vernon was a better overall player for the blue jays than Devo was.

I remember being so frustrated watching Devo at the plate, he didn't walk much for a lead off guy, and he didn't steal much for a guy with that easy speed he always had. I always thought Devo could have been a more complete player by being able to take a walk once in a while and actually steal a base when he got on. Plus his arm was nothing special either.

I'm not a huge Vernon fan, but I think when he was having one of his 'productive' seasons he was a much better player with the bat than Devo was for me, thats just my opinion.

Hey why no Junior Felix love? ;)

StayOnBoard
08-13-2011, 10:51 PM
Forgetting all the advanced numbers that might prove me wrong, I too believe Vernon was a better overall player for the blue jays than Devo was.

I remember being so frustrated watching Devo at the plate, he didn't walk much for a lead off guy, and he didn't steal much for a guy with that easy speed he always had. I always thought Devo could have been a more complete player by being able to take a walk once in a while and actually steal a base when he got on. Plus his arm was nothing special either.

I'm not a huge Vernon fan, but I think when he was having one of his 'productive' seasons he was a much better player with the bat than Devo was for me, thats just my opinion.

Hey why no Junior Felix love? ;)

Devon White had a WAR of 6.9, 6.4, and 5.7 from 1991 to 1993. He dropped off considerably since then, however.

You're right in what you say though, he didn't have a great walk rate and he struck out probably more than he should have. But the guy did score basically 100+ runs during those years, while hitting 15+ home runs and stealing 30+ to boot. Add that with being a good fielder and he became a very valuable player.

2009mvp
08-13-2011, 11:12 PM
^^Meh, those WAR figures are driven by sky-high defensive numbers. I can't put that much faith in ridiculously high values using an incredibly flawed system (even moreso than UZR). I'm fine with saying he was a fantastic CF, but not to those extents. He did have 2 very solid offensive years that people seem to be ignoring though.

StayOnBoard
08-13-2011, 11:30 PM
^^Meh, those WAR figures are driven by sky-high defensive numbers. I can't put that much faith in ridiculously high values using an incredibly flawed system (even moreso than UZR). I'm fine with saying he was a fantastic CF, but not to those extents. He did have 2 very solid offensive years that people seem to be ignoring though.

You're right and I realize that. I tried to explain that in the second part of my post (sorry if I didn't do that adequately) :) lol

He had some very good seasons for Toronto - both offensively and defensively.

Personally I'd put White #1 and Wells #2. Hopefully soon we can replace them both with a guy on our roster :D

GNick
08-14-2011, 05:43 PM
I think Gose could be a Devo type. With his speed, arm, power and of course, batting average.

About the only difference I can see in their stats, Devo was so fast to first base he almost never hit into double play. Gose could be first Blue Jay to lead league in stolen bases.

naidle
08-14-2011, 06:02 PM
Devo hands down. I loved Vernon but his defence fell off a cliff.

GrumpyOldMan
08-15-2011, 07:13 AM
Wells had the best season of the two of them and he had the worst season of the two of them. I'll take consistancy and defence. Give me Devo.

darth helmet
08-15-2011, 09:08 AM
You can analyze all the stats in the world but they won't tell you everything because even in baseball there are somethings that stats don't show. If you actually got a chance to watch him play it's pretty clear that Devo was the better player.

Big Hurt
08-15-2011, 10:41 AM
Lloyd Moseby was born November 5, 1959 in Portland, Arkansas. He was drafted in the first round, second overall, of the 1978 amateur draft out of Oakland high school. The number one choice that year was Bob Horner and number three was Hubie Brooks. Also chosen in the first round that year was Kirk Gibson.



We were a pretty lousy team back then and Moseby was rushed thru the minors in two years though he did hit .300 and slugged .500 in his couple of seasons in the minors. He was called up to the Jays in late May of 1980. He was just 20 and over-matched in the majors. But like I said we weren't a very good team back then and we kept him in center field. We weren't exactly crawling with great prospects so we could afford to keep him on the roster. For his first 3 season he didn't hit better than .236.

Lloyd's 4th season with the Jays, he finally learned to hit, having a terrific .315/.376/.499 line. He scored 104 runs (becoming the first jay to score 100 in a season), hit 18 homers and stole 27 bases. He won the Silver Slugger award and he received some MVP votes. He was 5th in runs scored and 6th in batting average and had a then team record 21 game hit streak.

He had another good season in 1984, hitting .280/.368/.470. He led the league in triples with 15 and stole 39 bases. Scored 97 runs and drove in 92. He got some MVP votes again. As Bill James said at the time, his strengths were "hitting for power, hitting for average, range, throwing, base running, patience as a hitter. Weaknesses none." Course he also thought that he would win a MVP award and that part didn't happen.

In 1985 his batting average dropped to .259, but he still walked 76 times, had 18 homers, scored 92 runs and stole 37 bases. 1985 was our first playoff year, we lost out to Royals, Lloyd didn't have a good series, hitting just .226 in the 7 games. He did score 5 runs and drove in 4. 1986 wasn't his best year either hitting .253/..329/.418, but he still scored 89 runs and drove in 86, with 21 homers and 32 steals. With great range even in a down year he was a useful player. He made the All-Star team.

1987 was a bounce back year, he had a very good season setting career highs in runs 106, homers 26, RBI 96 and tied for his top season in steals with 39. He hit .282/.358/.473. Lloyd had a small part in baseball history on September 14 when he had a homer in a game where the Jays set a major league record hitting 10 in the game.

His last couple of seasons with the Jays were slowed some by injuries to back and legs (the hard playing surface in Toronto didn't do him any good, he likely would have had a longer career if he played on grass) and he was being pushed out of center field by prospect Junior Felix. His last season with the Jays was 1989 and we made the playoffs again that year. Lloyd did well in our 5 game loss to the A's, hitting .313/.476/.500 with a homer.

bartron_44
08-15-2011, 12:48 PM
first off...As much as I love Vernon AND Devo.... I have to agree with the big hurt...Moseby was also pretty darn foolish in 1983,84 and 87, and should be in this conversation.

From 83-88 Moseby averaged:

154 games
98 runs
85 rbi
20 HR
28 doubles
35 SB
~.275 BA
~.355. OBP

Pretty darn respectable, and he did it for a long time as a bluejay....He deserves to be here..


Now, in terms of this poll, before I answer officially, is the argument
1) the single best season,
2)the best arbitrary period of time (like a 3-5 prime year stretch as I did above for moseby), or
3) lifetime numbers as a bluejay?

Options 2 and 3 may be more of an argument, but if it is single best season, Vernon in 2003 would have to be my pick...and I don't see how it wouldn't be unanimous to be honest.. Take a step back, and remember these are numbers put up by a CF'er:

2003:
118 Runs (Devo never had more then 116)
215 hits (Devo topped out at 181)
49 doubles
33 HR (Devo never hit more then 17 as a Bluejay)
117 RBI (Devo never had more then 60 as a Bluejay)
.317 BA (Devo never hit higher then .283 as a Bluejay)
.359 OBP
.909 OPS (Devo topped out at .797 as a Bluejay)

All those bold stats above are straight up ridiculous. He Then followed that year with 3 straight GG's..(so I bet his D was also pretty solid in 2003 before that streak started)


The ONLY thing Devo had on him when debating single seasons was SB's...but I think I will take an OPS over 100 points higher , and almost twice as many RBI's from my CF'er over a few SB's.

There was also a few very good CF'er's in baseball from 2004->2006 when Vernon won those 3 straight GG's, so I don't think Devo had Vernon by that great a margin on defense to make up for how badly Vernon beat him with the stick.

I have to give him his props, Devo was best defensive CF'er in Bluejay history...period. He won 5 straight GG's (7 in his career) and made everything look soooooo easy....But did it really make up the difference (when comparing single seasons) when Vernon also played GG caliber defense? I think not.