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SteBO
08-09-2011, 08:19 PM
RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.
NO POSTING in your FORUM, VOTE for this GUY. We had problems last time with it and NO POSTING in someone Else's Forum to VOTE for a certain player.


Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.


Voting for #21 has concluded and PSD's Official #21 NBA Player of all time is....

LeBron James (dupe accts. excluded)


Top 3 Voters


LeBron James = 26 votes
Isiah Thomas = 22 votes (dupe accts. excluded)
Dirk Nowitzki = 13 votes


The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)
20. Kevin Garnett (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641975)
21. LeBron James (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511)

Voting will now begin for the #22 NBA Player All Time


NOTE: You can only nominate one player and that player had to be an allstar multiple times at least probably at least 3 times at a minimum. The player who has the most nomination votes will be added to the next poll. Anyone who nominates more than one player there nomination will be disregarded.


2nd NOTE: Have seen a lot of posters just vote, but not make a single comment in the thread on there choice. We need you to participate and say why you chose who you did. Basically support it. If not, then don't see why your vote should count.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-09-2011, 08:24 PM
Khalifa said he counted 9 dupes for Isiah, thats enough to put him ahead of Lebron....

Lebron should be put at #21, even if I don't necessarily agree with it, he's still a MUCH better choice then Isiah, who shouldn't even be top 30.

SteBO
08-09-2011, 08:25 PM
JB's will be out of town, so I'll be helping out providing these for you all.

SteBO
08-09-2011, 08:26 PM
Khalifa said he counted 9 dupes for Isiah, thats enough to put him ahead of Lebron....

Lebron should be put at #21, even if I don't necessarily agree with it, he's still a MUCH better choice then Isiah, who shouldn't even be top 30.
Nine?????? :speechless: I'll have to take an in-depth look.

SteBO
08-09-2011, 08:34 PM
I actually counted 11 dupes :pity:

Polls been changed. LeBron is gonna be #21 all time fellas. Too many dupes for me to just leave it the way it was.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-09-2011, 08:42 PM
I actually counted 11 dupes :pity:

Polls been changed. LeBron is gonna be #21 all time fellas. Too many dupes for me to just leave it the way it was.

Damn dupes :pity:

Anyways, I don't agree with Lebron at #21. I still think Dirk should've gone ahead and maybe a few others like Hondo, Elgin and Pettit BUT Lebron at #21 is FAR more excusable then Isiah at #21, which would've been straight idiocy. Worse then Mikan or Stockton going that high IMO.

SteBO
08-09-2011, 08:44 PM
Damn dupes :pity:

Anyways, I don't agree with Lebron at #21. I still think Dirk should've gone ahead and maybe a few others like Hondo, Elgin and Pettit BUT Lebron at #21 is FAR more excusable then Isiah at #21, which would've been straight idiocy. Worse then Mikan or Stockton going that high IMO.
I'm with you 100% here. I like Dirk ahead of LeBron as well, but it's funny how people forget how the Pistons got their "bad boys" label. Isiah Thomas sure as hell wasn't the reason for that.

Khalifa21
08-09-2011, 08:45 PM
This one will come down to Dirk and Pettit... I'm pretty torn at the moment, but leaning towards Pettit followed by Dirk and then maybe Elgin.

NYMetros
08-09-2011, 08:47 PM
Havlicek for like the 6th time in a row.

tredigs
08-09-2011, 08:48 PM
I'll give you all one guess who I chose.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-09-2011, 08:48 PM
I'm with you 100% here. I like Dirk ahead of LeBron as well, but it's funny how people forget how the Pistons got their "bad boys" label. Isiah Thomas sure as hell wasn't the reason for that.

Yeah, if Isiah gets voted here, these rankings go straight to the crapper. Dude is Tony Parker in the regular season and while he was much better in the playoffs, it shouldn't be ignored that well, he's a Tony Parker clone (worse actually) in the regular season. And its not like he produced these all-time great playoff performances, he's known for being the "leader" of the Bad Boy Pistons teams, which again, won on interior D, which Isiah had nothing to do with.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-09-2011, 08:56 PM
I'll give you all one guess who I chose.

Dirk :p

In all seriousness though, I kind of wish I had waited to vote. If Isiah continues to get votes like the last poll, then I'd rather go with the guy who has more votes among Pettit, Dirk, Elgin and Hondo.

Unfortunately, it looks like people could be split on those guys which means Isiah could win this poll. :facepalm:

NBAfan4life
08-09-2011, 09:06 PM
I'm leaning towards Pettit. It is strange because normally I give the edge to recent era's. It will be Dirk or Pettit. I suppose I will vote in a day to make sure Thomas isn't taking this.

LAKERMANIA
08-09-2011, 09:11 PM
Going with Havlicek

Raps08-09 Champ
08-09-2011, 09:50 PM
Best defensive player ever. Scottie Pippen.

Underrated Wade
08-09-2011, 10:01 PM
Wade hands down. he might not have beaten dirk this year, but that was because lebron did worse than marion. also terry was owning chalmers like a ******

DR_1
08-09-2011, 11:16 PM
This is such cr*p. Isiah won the last poll.

Raps08-09 Champ
08-09-2011, 11:19 PM
This is such cr*p. Isiah won the last poll.

You hate Lebron that much, don't you?

I bet you made the duplicate accounts.

DR_1
08-09-2011, 11:23 PM
You hate Lebron that much, don't you?

I bet you made the duplicate accounts.

No, not really. And I've got a life, so I'm not making any dupes. I just think LeBron over Isiah, Dirk, Baylor, and Petit is ludicrous.

Hellcrooner
08-09-2011, 11:23 PM
thomas again.
+
I wont buy into the hate he has gathered form fans for his act as a Person ( he is horrible)

and his awfull gm skills.

Swashcuff
08-09-2011, 11:25 PM
No, not really. And I've got a life, so I'm not making any dupes. I just think LeBron over Isiah, Dirk, Baylor, and Petit is ludicrous.

Why Baylor over LeBron?

Hellcrooner
08-09-2011, 11:26 PM
btw why the **** isnt dolph schayes in the poll?

or nate thurmond while we are at it.

DR_1
08-09-2011, 11:27 PM
Why Baylor over LeBron?

At this point, I think his body of work is more complete. In a few years, LBJ will pass him, just not now.

Swashcuff
08-09-2011, 11:37 PM
btw why the **** isnt dolph schayes in the poll?

or nate thurmond while we are at it.

They'll be there soon they both absolutely deserve to be

Hellcrooner
08-09-2011, 11:50 PM
They'll be there soon they both absolutely deserve to be

thurmond should have been an option from the beggining.

in his case there are no Shot clock, segregated leafgue,short career, blah blah blah stupid excuses.

LAKERMANIA
08-10-2011, 12:17 AM
Lebron being at #21 is way worse than Stockton and David Robinson being in the top 20

23dragonzord
08-10-2011, 12:19 AM
Best defensive player ever. Scottie Pippen.

Agreed!

GhostfaceDrilla
08-10-2011, 12:21 AM
This is easily Dirk. Should have went 21st. He is easily ahead of Lebron.

samevans7
08-10-2011, 12:41 AM
I cannot see a single argument for Dirk over Havlicek... none

I voted J-Kidd tho. Tons of assists, very good 3 point shooter in his prime

Stuckey#3
08-10-2011, 12:43 AM
Wow... I have completely lost faith in the integrity of this entire list (excluding top five which are pretty obvious). And realize now that I don't really care at all what PSD "voters" think. This is a waste of time.

Stuckey#3
08-10-2011, 12:44 AM
Last I saw Zeke was up by a good margin. Did Lebron James buy some advertisement space on PSD or something?

samevans7
08-10-2011, 12:45 AM
people just vote for "who is good now".

Dirk shouldnt be in the top 30, at all. Lebron shouldnt be in the top 25 yet either. Like John Havlicek still on the list, being the Celtics number one scorer of all time, and LeBron being ahead of him, is crazy. People cant seriously be voting for current players at this time

GhostfaceDrilla
08-10-2011, 12:47 AM
people just vote for "who is good now".

Dirk shouldnt be in the top 30, at all. Lebron shouldnt be in the top 25 yet either. Like John Havlicek still on the list, being the Celtics number one scorer of all time, and LeBron being ahead of him, is crazy. People cant seriously be voting for current players at this time

Dirk has 22k points and counting, a Championship, a Finals MVP, an MVP, 11 All NBA Teams (4 1st), 10 All Stars and has led a Mavs team to 50+ wins basically his entire career. He is EASILY top 30, in fact he is top 20. Dirk is great now, and he is even greater all time. Hater.

naps
08-10-2011, 12:51 AM
People who don't get love here: Wade, Pippen, Pettit.

Stuckey#3
08-10-2011, 12:52 AM
I also think that it is impossible for Miami Heat fans to be objective... and it's not your fault at all. It's just your team has been **** on by every analyst, reporter, fan and poster with any interest in the NBA so you can't help but feel defensive. And could they possibly be capable of distorting the numbers?

Chronz
08-10-2011, 12:54 AM
thomas again.
+
I wont buy into the hate he has gathered form fans for his act as a Person ( he is horrible)

and his awfull gm skills.

You really bought into that theory huh, that people care about his managerial skills?

Stuckey#3
08-10-2011, 12:55 AM
2nd NOTE: Have seen a lot of posters just vote, but not make a single comment in the thread on there choice. We need you to participate and say why you chose who you did. Basically support it. If not, then don't see why your vote should count.

I'm calling ******** on this. Not everybody has time to write a ****ing deposition regarding his vote. Votes should be counted without subjective judgement from the mods. You are making this a lot harder than it has to be.

Chronz
08-10-2011, 12:55 AM
Last I saw Zeke was up by a good margin. Did Lebron James buy some advertisement space on PSD or something?
Why dont you even read the thread? You would come off less biased if you were informed

samevans7
08-10-2011, 01:00 AM
Dirk has 22k points and counting, a Championship, a Finals MVP, an MVP, 11 All NBA Teams (4 1st), 10 All Stars and has led a Mavs team to 50+ wins basically his entire career. He is EASILY top 30, in fact he is top 20. Dirk is great now, and he is even greater all time. Hater.

Not a hater at all. As a Celtics fan, I couldnt be rooting more against Miami than anyone else in the Finals.

But Havlicek.

26,395 points (1st in Celtics history), 8 Championships, 1 Finals MVP, 13 ASG appearances, consistent All NBA 2nd teamer and NBA All Defense 1st teamer.

Havlicek>Dirk.

Hellcrooner
08-10-2011, 01:02 AM
people just vote for "who is good now".

Dirk shouldnt be in the top 30, at all. Lebron shouldnt be in the top 25 yet either. Like John Havlicek still on the list, being the Celtics number one scorer of all time, and LeBron being ahead of him, is crazy. People cant seriously be voting for current players at this time

top 25 probably.
tough i wouldnt put him higher than 30.

but well, people is too young, have no knowledge of the past( ro dont care bout it) or are stats nerds or several of them at the same time.

Chronz
08-10-2011, 01:02 AM
At this point, I think his body of work is more complete. In a few years, LBJ will pass him, just not now.

You do realize that compared to Bron with as many years served Elgin was done as a superstar. You really think those 4 extra years at a significantly diminished level of play outweigh Brons superior Prime run and Peak worth?

samevans7
08-10-2011, 01:05 AM
I think a lot of the Lebron and Dirk votes are influenced on how he will do in their futures. by that logic, Durant may be a top 10 player of all time smh

you gotta go by what they have NOW. And right now, Dirk is not better than most of these players

Stuckey#3
08-10-2011, 01:08 AM
Why dont you even read the thread? You would come off less biased if you were informed

I backtracked and read some of the last forum... I don't have time to debate the greatness of Isiah Thomas with the entire PSD forum. I watched the games back then and I saw how great he was first hand. And I do think its funny that Isiah had 11 "dupes" and Lebron had none; don't know how much I trust that... or the mods for that matter.

naps
08-10-2011, 01:11 AM
I also think that it is impossible for Miami Heat fans to be objective... and it's not your fault at all. It's just your team has been **** on by every analyst, reporter, fan and poster with any interest in the NBA so you can't help but feel defensive. And could they possibly be capable of distorting the numbers?

WOW. Just stfu dude. You are acting like a dumped girlfriend because Isiah didn't win the poll? LeBron was voted in mostly by neutral fans, not only Heat fans. And Isiah had 11 dupes voted for him. I have a strong guess you might actually be the one who created those dupes since you are crying now.

Chronz
08-10-2011, 01:14 AM
I backtracked and read some of the last forum... I don't have time to debate the greatness of Isiah Thomas with the entire PSD forum. I watched the back then and I saw how great he was first hand. And I do think its funny that Isiah had 11 "dupes" and Lebron had none; don't know how much I trust that... or the mods for that matter.
You can go back and find out how many dupes were created, its not hard if you dont trust the results. Im sure the Mods check them though, JB would have no reason not to considering he doesnt want Bron up this high.

As for Isiah, its a shame that you cant debate his greatness because I have yet to hear a legit argument for him. Really the only guy with the balls to back him has been Crooner and all he ever says is that people hate him for his management failures and lack of character along with some charade about him defeating 3 super teams in their primes.

Stuckey#3
08-10-2011, 01:16 AM
WOW. Just stfu dude. You are acting like a dumped girlfriend because Isiah didn't win the poll? LeBron was voted in mostly by neutral fans, not only Heat fans. And Isiah had 11 dupes voted for him. I have a strong guess you might actually be the one who created those dupes since you are crying now.

Sorry bro. Don't have time for this ****. All I'm saying is this whole "dupe" thing is suspicious. I log on maybe once every two days. I don't live on here life some of you fools.

naps
08-10-2011, 01:24 AM
Sorry bro. Don't have time for this ****. All I'm saying is this whole "dupe" thing is suspicious. I log on maybe once every two days. I don't live on here life some of you fools.

If you don't have time to check then don't bother your *** to cry. You have time to cry and complain but don't have time to check out the dupes or make a case for overrated Isiah. That's pathetic. I am sure the MODs have some way they can catch all the dupes. And it's so easy that anyone can do it. If you can't then it's dumb. Stop bashing a fanbase just because your player didn't get voted in with the dupes. LeBron had votes from everywhere.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-10-2011, 02:19 AM
Between the last 2 threads, I feel like I've given some strong reasons for why Isiah is way overrated and no one has even attempted to debate them, except Crooner who chose to debate 1 point and then when I countered, left it be.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511&page=6

The post on the MVP award shares is on the next page.

Another thing, the Pistons were a very deep team but most of the depth was in the frontcourt (at the Forward/Center positions) so a lot of their bigs split time among each other but Isiah and Dumars got to play the majority of the minutes in the backcourt, which is why they seem to get most of the credit for the Pistons runs, despite the strength of the team being interior defense.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-10-2011, 02:31 AM
Not a hater at all. As a Celtics fan, I couldnt be rooting more against Miami than anyone else in the Finals.

But Havlicek.

26,395 points (1st in Celtics history), 8 Championships, 1 Finals MVP, 13 ASG appearances, consistent All NBA 2nd teamer and NBA All Defense 1st teamer.

Havlicek>Dirk.

Don't know why you're looking at only total points for stats. Pretty useless total on its own. No one uses total points to rank the greatest players of all-time because there's more to the game then just points.

Now that I've got that out of the way, accolades:

You listed Havlicek's but what about Dirk's?

Dirk: 1 championship, 1 Finals MVP, 1 MVP, 10x all-star, consistent All NBA 1st or 2nd teamer.

Hondo has the all-defensive teamer going for him but other then that, their accolades are similar with the exception of championships and an MVP for Dirk, which Hondo doesn't have. So basically, you're ranking Hondo ahead because of the rings correct?

Chronz
08-10-2011, 02:49 AM
Players Isiah was behind in the MVP ballots

Starting from 84-85 since its when his team first started winning at least 50 games

He placed 9th, Terry Cummings and Sidney Moncrief were teammates on a great Bucks team that won more games, still considering they were teammates and not in the realm of the players Dirk competed against for the award its pretty sad.

In 85-86 the Pistons slid back and won only 46 games, again he ranked 9th. Notable player he was behind, Alex English (who won 47 games)

In 86-87 he ranked 8th but the competition was fierce, lots of legendary player either playing on great teams or putting up monster stats. Finishing 8th was actually a pretty decent accomplishment given the field.

In 87-88 he finished 12th, keep in mind the Pistons were continuing to improve and had just come off a trip to the ECF. He finished behind a pair of teammates who won less games than he did (Fat Lever/Alex English) and behind John Stockton AND Karl Malone despite the fact that they too won less games.

In 88-89 he barely got a vote and actually shared a 17th place finish with his teammate Joe Dumars. Keep in mind this wasnt a case of him being DQ'd due to being on a bad team, the Pistons were fresh off a trip to the NBA Finals and had won the most games in the league. Yet the voters never considered him. Instead guys who barely cracked .500 and werent even their teams best player, like Roebert Parish got more votes than he did.

In 1989-90 the Pistons were coming off a championship season and had once again finished with the best record in the league, you would think now is the time Isiah would get his due. NOPE, again he tied with Joe Dumars and again ranked behind Stockton, Buck Williams.

In 1991 the Pistons had just won their 2nd title but their regular season dominance was over, they still won 50 games but Isiah was again not seen as an MVP candidate.


So here we have a guy who throughout his career when his teams were at the top of their reign, was given little to no consideration as an MVP, you can say the voters had a vendetta but would such a copout really excuse such a low showing throughout the vast majority of his career. I think its more obvious that the voters recognized just how DEEP and talented his supporting cast was, so much so that they refused to consider Isiah among the games most valuable players.

Im not going to vote for Isiah because he had some great teammates, anyone who thinks other wise is sipping on some kool aid because the man was never seen in that light, even his stats dont support such a showing.

Hellcrooner
08-10-2011, 02:49 AM
^ are you aware that mvp is most probably the Most worthless award that there is out there?
Sepcially when as of lately it has become a popularity contest?


The only thing that its more worthless is allstar starting 5 selections by VOTERS since theres Internet.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-10-2011, 02:50 AM
people just vote for "who is good now".

Dirk shouldnt be in the top 30, at all. Lebron shouldnt be in the top 25 yet either. Like John Havlicek still on the list, being the Celtics number one scorer of all time, and LeBron being ahead of him, is crazy. People cant seriously be voting for current players at this time

Care to back that up? Assume you have the 20 guys in the top 20 already voted ahead of Dirk, can you name 10 other guys that deserve to be ahead of him? And from the tone of your post, you seem to think he's even lower then 30.

You named 1 in your post, thats it.

PS- Why no complaint about KG being voted in at 20? He's an active player.

And again, why do you only look at total points? Very simplistic. You'll have to come up with more then that.

Hellcrooner
08-10-2011, 02:54 AM
btw -

what happens in this scenario-

you remove Pippen from jordans bulls.

we remove his willingless to eat second, or not eat AT ALL some nights when Boss decides he is going to win the game alone.
we remove his narrow defense.

now we have removed it.

we Add Dirk and his amazing offensive tools to that team.
But of course his defense is nowehre near pips.

And i doubt he woudl be willing to eat second.....wahts worse without many food his efficeince may not be the same.

How many rings does Mj get?

Chronz
08-10-2011, 03:00 AM
Between the last 2 threads, I feel like I've given some strong reasons for why Isiah is way overrated and no one has even attempted to debate them, except Crooner who chose to debate 1 point and then when I countered, left it be.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=642511&page=6

The post on the MVP award shares is on the next page.

Another thing, the Pistons were a very deep team but most of the depth was in the frontcourt (at the Forward/Center positions) so a lot of their bigs split time among each other but Isiah and Dumars got to play the majority of the minutes in the backcourt, which is why they seem to get most of the credit for the Pistons runs, despite the strength of the team being interior defense.
I just saw your post where you compared Billups to Zeke, it was a near replica of the post I was going to make before deciding against it.

Hellcrooner
08-10-2011, 03:03 AM
the most of pistons depth was on froncourt???????????

thomas+dumars+vinnie johnson+john long( a forgoten very very very good player)+aguirre( played some sg for some minutes in the games) was a bad backcourt? thats news to me.

Chronz
08-10-2011, 03:06 AM
^ are you aware that mvp is most probably the Most worthless award that there is out there?
Sepcially when as of lately it has become a popularity contest?


The only thing that its more worthless is allstar starting 5 selections by VOTERS since theres Internet.

Im not surprised you think so, you dont want us looking at stats, you dont want us looking at wins, you dont want us looking at accolades, you dont want us using your own arguments against you, you dont want consistency. Its hard to debate with someone who gets to pick and choose when each topic is relevant and when they arent.

MVP may have become worthless in your opinion but before all you said was that its hard to win the MVP when your battling against the best players, now its that its become worthless, but that doesnt explain how he finished behind some really crappy players (relatively speaking), I mean come on, he was behind stat inflating, no D having Alex English in a year where Isiah actually won more games. How sad is that?

PatsSoxKnicks
08-10-2011, 03:14 AM
^ are you aware that mvp is most probably the Most worthless award that there is out there?
Sepcially when as of lately it has become a popularity contest?


The only thing that its more worthless is allstar starting 5 selections by VOTERS since theres Internet.

So what is your reasoning for voting for Isiah this high? Other then the fact that he won 2 championships and the fact that you watched him play. Is that your reasoning?

You don't like the MVP awards/All-Star games, so essentially, you're telling us to ignore accolades. Ok fine. Statistically, he's not that great either.

Because as I said earlier, he's the statistical equivalent of Tony Parker in the regular season. And in the postseason, the equivalent of Kevin Johnson or Gus Williams. (Actually, the Gus Williams comp works for the regular season pretty well too. His team lost in 7 games in the Finals 1 year.) Mix that all together and that in no way means he should be this high.

Basically, you rate him this high because of the 2 championships right? Because he "led" the Bad Boy Pistons? Well, again, he didn't lead them, the Pistons interior defense led them, something he had nothing to do with.

Chronz
08-10-2011, 03:18 AM
btw -

what happens in this scenario-

you remove Pippen from jordans bulls.

we remove his willingless to eat second, or not eat AT ALL some nights when Boss decides he is going to win the game alone.
we remove his narrow defense.

now we have removed it.

we Add Dirk and his amazing offensive tools to that team.
But of course his defense is nowehre near pips.

And i doubt he woudl be willing to eat second.....wahts worse without many food his efficeince may not be the same.

How many rings does Mj get?
Remember the year MJ practically carried his team when Pippen was having back problems. That was an older MJ why doubt the guy? Pippen still played great but Dirk wouldnt become worthless. He would be a valuable weapon for MJ to utilize. He would give MJ the kind of spacing few players had back then making him even more dangerous. I suppose the Bulls arent as great but they wouldnt just stick with Dirk and a weird SF rotation, they would trade Kukoc for someone that fits better.

Bruno
08-10-2011, 03:18 AM
^ Would you guys compare Thomas to Rose in that sense? Great interior D allowed his team to be great, and that given guard be it Thomas or Rose just happened to be the best offensive player on the team? Hence, they get the credit?

I know Rose had better numbers last season that anything Thomas put up, but you know what i mean.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-10-2011, 03:23 AM
the most of pistons depth was on froncourt???????????

thomas+dumars+vinnie johnson+john long( a forgoten very very very good player)+aguirre( played some sg for some minutes in the games) was a bad backcourt? thats news to me.

I didn't say it was a bad backcourt, I said it wasn't as deep as their frontcourt (Forwards/Centers).

John Long played 8 minutes for the Pistons in their championship run. He wasn't even on the team for the other one. Aguirre played some Forward too as you basically pointed out. So thats what 3.5 guys in rotation for both guard positions? That's not that deep.

Hellcrooner
08-10-2011, 03:24 AM
Im not surprised you think so, you dont want us looking at stats, you dont want us looking at wins, you dont want us looking at accolades, you dont want us using your own arguments against you, you dont want consistency. Its hard to debate with someone who gets to pick and choose when each topic is relevant and when they arent.

MVP may have become worthless in your opinion but before all you said was that its hard to win the MVP when your battling against the best players, now its that its become worthless, but that doesnt explain how he finished behind some really crappy players (relatively speaking), I mean come on, he was behind stat inflating, no D having Alex English in a year where Isiah actually won more games. How sad is that?
as sad as watching nash lift a mvp that prime kobe deserved ( and god knows i absolutely loathe kobe bryant) or watching dirk lift a mvp that nash deserved ( and then seeing how to celebrate it he got killed by the 8ths seed)

PatsSoxKnicks
08-10-2011, 03:28 AM
I just saw your post where you compared Billups to Zeke, it was a near replica of the post I was going to make before deciding against it.

lol, why did you decide against it?

And I was thinking the better comparable might be Gus Williams from a numbers stand point. Playoff numbers are similar, with the exception of Ast% (Gus was obviously more of a scorer while Isiah was more of a passer) and the regular season #'s are similar too with almost identical USG rates and ORtgs.

Edit:

Not sure where bball-ref lists their comparables (or if they list them, don't see it on the player pages) but I searched through the play index for the playoffs:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=Y&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=75&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=G&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

Didn't do it for the regular season but as I said, the Gus Williams one seems to work. Heck, the height and weight are basically identical too and Gus is only 6 spots lower in the MVP award shares. The main difference is obviously the # of all-star games/fame but from a numbers stand point, they're very similar (withe exception being how each contributed, Isiah more passing, Gus more scoring).

MelkyNYY
08-10-2011, 03:52 AM
LMAO at Garnett > Pippen and LBJ. LOL

PatsSoxKnicks
08-10-2011, 03:54 AM
^ Would you guys compare Thomas to Rose in that sense? Great interior D allowed his team to be great, and that given guard be it Thomas or Rose just happened to be the best offensive player on the team? Hence, they get the credit?

I know Rose had better numbers last season that anything Thomas put up, but you know what i mean.

Yeah basically, except Thomas never approached Rose's level of importance on offense. Not even close actually.

Offensively actually, out of the 4 Factors, the Pistons ranked highest in ORB%; so again, big man play.

alencp3
08-10-2011, 05:17 AM
Dirk since havlicek wont get any votes

Knick Killer
08-10-2011, 06:11 AM
I nominate Reggie Miller for the next pool.

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MTar786
08-10-2011, 09:18 AM
dirk should have went at 21,, but hey.. this is just a psd top 50 anyway lol.

its no big deal lebron gets 21 because he will definitely finish his career a top 12 player.. and wade will finish in the top 15. dirk will end it at 21.. so in my eyes the 21st spot is dirks no matter what haha.. unless he wins anothe ring and finals mvp. he might be able to pass kg, robinson and stockton
(actually dirk is better than stockton already)

GoPacers33
08-10-2011, 09:25 AM
Scottie P

GoPacers33
08-10-2011, 09:26 AM
Reggie Miller for next poll

Cavs_Fan24
08-10-2011, 09:47 AM
Isiah Thomas. Those playoff games where he absolutely just carried the pistons are too fond in my memory. Guy did it on a broken leg once. Great scorer, and leader. Also, a back-to-back champion.

samevans7
08-10-2011, 11:25 AM
Don't know why you're looking at only total points for stats. Pretty useless total on its own. No one uses total points to rank the greatest players of all-time because there's more to the game then just points.

Now that I've got that out of the way, accolades:

You listed Havlicek's but what about Dirk's?

Dirk: 1 championship, 1 Finals MVP, 1 MVP, 10x all-star, consistent All NBA 1st or 2nd teamer.

Hondo has the all-defensive teamer going for him but other then that, their accolades are similar with the exception of championships and an MVP for Dirk, which Hondo doesn't have. So basically, you're ranking Hondo ahead because of the rings correct?

If you look at the seasons Havlicek played, for his like first 7 seasons, he had so many other great scorers on his team. Hell, for many of those seasons, he wasnt even their top scorer. But when people like Sam Jones left, Hondo erupted scoring wise. Havlicek was a better scorer than Dirk has ever been.


Care to back that up? Assume you have the 20 guys in the top 20 already voted ahead of Dirk, can you name 10 other guys that deserve to be ahead of him? And from the tone of your post, you seem to think he's even lower then 30.

You named 1 in your post, thats it.

PS- Why no complaint about KG being voted in at 20? He's an active player.

And again, why do you only look at total points? Very simplistic. You'll have to come up with more then that.

I do not think KG is in the top 20 either. Out of the "active" players, only Shaq, Kobe, and maybe JKidd deserve to be in the top 20.

samevans7
08-10-2011, 11:28 AM
LMAO at Garnett > Pippen and LBJ. LOL

KG is too high, but he is clearly better than those two. Pippen is one of the most overrated players of all time. And KG in his prime in Minny was pretty damn dominant

ShakeN'Bake
08-10-2011, 11:29 AM
I meant to click on Hondo...idk how I clicked Thomas.....

todu82
08-10-2011, 12:21 PM
Isiah Thomas

Swashcuff
08-10-2011, 12:28 PM
If you look at the seasons Havlicek played, for his like first 7 seasons, he had so many other great scorers on his team. Hell, for many of those seasons, he wasnt even their top scorer. But when people like Sam Jones left, Hondo erupted scoring wise. Havlicek was a better scorer than Dirk has ever been.



I do not think KG is in the top 20 either. Out of the "active" players, only Shaq, Kobe, and maybe JKidd deserve to be in the top 20.

Interesting to see that you think J.Kidd should be ahead of KG. Why do you say so? Also do you have him ahead of Stockton?

Swashcuff
08-10-2011, 12:33 PM
After some careful deliberation I made my choice of Bob Pettit here.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-10-2011, 12:45 PM
After some careful deliberation I made my choice of Bob Pettit here.

I wish you had voted Dirk here, the reason being obvious if you read through the thread lol.

tredigs
08-10-2011, 12:52 PM
I wish you had voted Dirk here, the reason being obvious if you read through the thread lol.

Hey! Don't you try to steal votes from Ol' Dutch ya hear!

But do you mean that you think you made a case for Dirk over Thomas (not wanting Thomas to win), or that it was obvious that Dirk > Pettit.

I feel like Pettit has a fairly strong case over Dirk (obviously, as I've exhausted some of the reasons over the past 7 threads), and a monumental case over Isiah. It's actually not even a debate between those two.

Like the other forum (19?), Bill Simmons (14?) and "Slam"s (15?) top 100 lists, I had Bob Pettit in the top twenty. He's way overdue.

Chronz
08-10-2011, 01:00 PM
^ Would you guys compare Thomas to Rose in that sense? Great interior D allowed his team to be great, and that given guard be it Thomas or Rose just happened to be the best offensive player on the team? Hence, they get the credit?

I know Rose had better numbers last season that anything Thomas put up, but you know what i mean.

Isiah would have murdered the handchecking era and if he had come alittle while after the 3pt era he may have been a more efficient shooter as well. As it stands however Isiah consistently did one thing Rose has yet to prove. He raised his game in the playoffs. But yea its pretty similar, it happens alot throughout history. If defense wins championships then why people give all the credit to offensive players is beyond me.

Chronz
08-10-2011, 01:04 PM
as sad as watching nash lift a mvp that prime kobe deserved ( and god knows i absolutely loathe kobe bryant) or watching dirk lift a mvp that nash deserved ( and then seeing how to celebrate it he got killed by the 8ths seed)

Nah thats nowhere near as sad, those players actually led their teams to greater heights, remember Isiah was NOWHERE NEAR the actual MVP winner, he was behind Alex English.


If you look at the seasons Havlicek played, for his like first 7 seasons, he had so many other great scorers on his team. Hell, for many of those seasons, he wasnt even their top scorer. But when people like Sam Jones left, Hondo erupted scoring wise. Havlicek was a better scorer than Dirk has ever been.



I do not think KG is in the top 20 either. Out of the "active" players, only Shaq, Kobe, and maybe JKidd deserve to be in the top 20.


From everything Ive read, Hondo BECAME a good scorer and I wouldnt say he was ever on Dirks level. Dirk is one of the greatest offensive performers ever.




LMAO at Garnett > Pippen and LBJ. LOL
Ive seen others laugh for the exact opposite.

Hellcrooner
08-10-2011, 01:10 PM
Nah thats nowhere near as sad, those players actually led their teams to greater heights, remember Isiah was NOWHERE NEAR the actual MVP winner, he was behind Alex English.




From everything Ive read, Hondo BECAME a good scorer and I wouldnt say he was ever on Dirks level. Dirk is one of the greatest offensive performers ever.




Ive seen others laugh for the exact opposite.whats your problem with alex english? he is not really worse than ray allen, reggie miller and etc etc.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-10-2011, 01:22 PM
If you look at the seasons Havlicek played, for his like first 7 seasons, he had so many other great scorers on his team. Hell, for many of those seasons, he wasnt even their top scorer. But when people like Sam Jones left, Hondo erupted scoring wise. Havlicek was a better scorer than Dirk has ever been.

Lets actually take a look at some numbers and real ones rather then total points.

Dirk:


Season Age G MP TS% eFG% USG% ORtg
1998-99 20 47 958 0.491 0.426 22.3 95
1999-00 21 82 2938 0.564 0.513 21.2 112
2000-01 22 82 3125 0.601 0.534 23.8 118
2001-02 23 76 2891 0.599 0.532 25.5 120
2002-03 24 80 3117 0.581 0.513 27.4 117
2003-04 25 77 2915 0.561 0.5 24.5 116
2004-05 26 78 3020 0.578 0.49 28.7 118
2005-06 27 81 3089 0.589 0.515 30 123
2006-07 28 78 2821 0.605 0.529 28.9 123
2007-08 29 77 2769 0.585 0.51 28.8 118
2008-09 30 81 3050 0.564 0.498 30.3 114
2009-10 31 81 3039 0.578 0.498 28.8 116
2010-11 32 73 2504 0.612 0.545 28.2 118
Career 993 36236 0.583 0.512 27 117


Havlicek:


Season Age G MP TS% eFG% USG% ORtg
1962-63 22 80 2200 0.479 0.445
1963-64 23 80 2587 0.463 0.417
1964-65 24 75 2169 0.441 0.401
1965-66 25 71 2175 0.45 0.399
1966-67 26 81 2602 0.5 0.444
1967-68 27 82 2921 0.486 0.429
1968-69 28 82 3174 0.459 0.405
1969-70 29 81 3369 0.533 0.464
1970-71 30 81 3678 0.513 0.45
1971-72 31 82 3698 0.512 0.458
1972-73 32 80 3367 0.502 0.45
1973-74 33 76 3091 0.509 0.456
1974-75 34 82 3132 0.505 0.455
1975-76 35 76 2598 0.508 0.45
1976-77 36 79 2913 0.495 0.452
1977-78 37 82 2797 0.495 0.449 21.3 101
Career 1270 46471 0.492 0.439 21.3 101


Unfortunately, ORtg and USG% weren't tracked/kept for most of the seasons Havlicek played (makes sense considering there were a lot of stats that weren't recorded back then). However, TS% and eFG% were tracked, so we can compare them as scorers.

At first glance, its quite obvious that Dirk was the better scorer in his seasons. Although, the era they played in needs to be taken into account. The league average eFG% ranged from 42%-46% in the time that Hondo played. In addition, he didn't have the benefit of the 3 pointer.

For Dirk's career, the league average eFG% has ranged from 47%-50%.

For most of Hondo's career, he shot the ball at around a league average rate. Even in his later years, his eFG% rose with the league average. Unfortunately, I don't know what the league average in TS% was but I don't think it'd make a significant difference to Hondo's #'s considering his rates at getting to the line and the fact that if you give about a 4-5 point increase from league average eFG% to league average TS% (which is what you can typically do now days), Hondo's still around league average.

Dirk, for most of his career, shot the ball at an above average rate, until the last 3 out of 4 years. I do know his TS% is routinely above average.

So from a numbers stand point, Dirk was the better scorer then Hondo. However, Hondo didn't get to play with the 3 point line. So it's reasonable to assume that his rates would've gone up had he gotten to play in the modern game. Unfortunately, you can only speculate how much so you can't accurately say for sure that he'd be a better scorer then Dirk.

I'll try to look for a comparable though to see if there's some way to project what Hondo's #'s would look like in the modern game.



I do not think KG is in the top 20 either. Out of the "active" players, only Shaq, Kobe, and maybe JKidd deserve to be in the top 20.

Why JKidd? And what about Tim Duncan?

And is there some reason you believe that active players shouldn't be ranked high? Some basic info for you- the average HOFer plays roughly 13 seasons (something I calculated from bball-ref's play index). Both KG and Duncan have played more then 13 seasons and Dirk is right at 13 seasons. Each of their careers is longer then Bird and Magic's career so it can't be based around some myth of longevity.

Do you believe the league is in a weakened state or something? And that no players from this era deserve to be that high?

heattiltheend94
08-10-2011, 01:25 PM
Wade: best finals performance ever

heattiltheend94
08-10-2011, 01:29 PM
Dirk is so overrated. he has onlyy averaged 23.0 points a game through his career with disgustind defense. He should not be in top 25 discussion

PatsSoxKnicks
08-10-2011, 01:31 PM
Hey! Don't you try to steal votes from Ol' Dutch ya hear!

But do you mean that you think you made a case for Dirk over Thomas (not wanting Thomas to win), or that it was obvious that Dirk > Pettit.

I feel like Pettit has a fairly strong case over Dirk (obviously, as I've exhausted some of the reasons over the past 7 threads), and a monumental case over Isiah. It's actually not even a debate between those two.

Like the other forum (19?), Bill Simmons (14?) and "Slam"s (15?) top 100 lists, I had Bob Pettit in the top twenty. He's way overdue.

No, it's got nothing to do with me thinking Pettit isn't deserving. He certainly is. I've seen you make a great case for him. But I don't want Isiah going this high, as I said earlier, its straight idiocy.

So if Pettit were in the same situation as Dirk (in contention with Isiah), I'd be saying vote for Pettit. Dirk is slightly ahead of Isiah and I'd like it to stay that way. I don't think Pettit can catch Isiah, which is unfortunate. Hopefully, if Dirk goes here, then we all get behind Pettit and make sure he goes ahead of Isiah.

You would agree with the fact that Isiah really has no case to be ahead of either Dirk or Pettit correct? And that he is being way overrated here.

tredigs
08-10-2011, 03:16 PM
No, it's got nothing to do with me thinking Pettit isn't deserving. He certainly is. I've seen you make a great case for him. But I don't want Isiah going this high, as I said earlier, its straight idiocy.

So if Pettit were in the same situation as Dirk (in contention with Isiah), I'd be saying vote for Pettit. Dirk is slightly ahead of Isiah and I'd like it to stay that way. I don't think Pettit can catch Isiah, which is unfortunate. Hopefully, if Dirk goes here, then we all get behind Pettit and make sure he goes ahead of Isiah.

You would agree with the fact that Isiah really has no case to be ahead of either Dirk or Pettit correct? And that he is being way overrated here.

F'sho. Agreed on all counts.

Chronz
08-10-2011, 03:36 PM
whats your problem with alex english? he is not really worse than ray allen, reggie miller and etc etc.
Even if I were to agree with you your only proving just how sad it is. But ever heard of the word Defense or Efficiency? Dont insult 2 of the best shooters of all time (Ray was actually a decent Man 2 Man defender as well) with that guy.

Hellcrooner
08-10-2011, 03:38 PM
Even if I were to agree with you your only proving just how sad it is. But ever heard of the word Defense or Efficiency? Dont insult 2 of the best shooters of all time (Ray was actually a decent Man 2 Man defender as well) with that guy.

ive seen play the three of them, SEE PLAY , not read stats.
Can you say the same?

Chronz
08-10-2011, 04:02 PM
ive seen play the three of them, SEE PLAY , not read stats.
Can you say the same?
Ive seen where you saying youve seen them play has taken you, I rather trust my eyes and the stats that support my opinion than your biased reasoning. Besides the game isnt as unique as you wish it were, its gotten to the point where I dont need to see players to understand their games at least within a general proximity.

Put it this way, any joe blow can get a job in the NBA if he understands stats, even those who know NOTHING about the NBA, you wont be able to convince anyone you deserve a job in the NBA simply because you think your eyes are all knowing.

Sorry Crooner but every argument you have presented has been DESTROYED. Your the kind of person who posts stats when they favor your argument and completely dismiss them when they dont. Until you develop some kind of consistency in your analysis you will continue to see your arguments fail.

Also, you compared to them to Ray Allen and Reggie, so tell me, what your computerized brain was able to remember. QUICK who was the better rebounder, defender, FT shooter, who was better at taking care of the ball and creating high% looks, who was able to raise the play of his teammates to a higher degree. Answer me all these questions without looking at stats.

Hellcrooner
08-10-2011, 04:05 PM
Ive seen where you saying youve seen them play has taken you, I rather trust my eyes and the stats that support my opinion than your biased reasoning. Besides the game isnt as unique as you wish it were, its gotten to the point where I dont need to see players to understand their games.

Put it this way, any joe blow can get a job in the NBA if he understands stats, even those who know NOTHING about the NBA, you wont be able to convince anyone you deserve a job in the NBA simply because you think your eyes are all knowing.

yep stat geeks Eric Money has taken the rockets sooooo faaar.

DR_1
08-10-2011, 04:15 PM
KG is too high, but he is clearly better than those two. Pippen is one of the most overrated players of all time. And KG in his prime in Minny was pretty damn dominant

:facepalm:

Chronz
08-10-2011, 04:20 PM
yep stat geeks Eric Money has taken the rockets sooooo faaar.
Further than youve gone with your eyeballs thats for sure. But actually he has, you just dont know how to measure success relative to his inherited assets and overall flexibility.

Besides why not mention the 2 Finalist this year? They are 2 of the most statistically advanced teams in the league and have used various metrics to influence their roster (down to the coach) and their game plan.

Better yet why not compare all the teams who use stats vs those that dont, care to guess which teams do better? To be honest though this doesnt tell you anything, you act as if it takes some sort of statistical insight to figure out that its a smart move to build around Dirk or Kobe or Bron etc.

It takes more intellect to find a diamond in the 2nd round, like Carl Landry than it does to agree to a trade for Pau Gasol. Obviously the trade for Pau Gasol will yield better results but it doesnt take a genius to agree to a trade for him. So why you choose to measure the validity of stats this way is beyond me but just know you have NOTHING to stand on.

I swear the next time I see you make a thread revolving around Pau Gasol and his defensive win shares Im going to shoot myself.

DR_1
08-10-2011, 04:20 PM
Wade: best finals performance ever


:laugh:



Dirk is so overrated. he has onlyy averaged 23.0 points a game through his career with disgustind defense. He should not be in top 25 discussion

Quit being bitter that you didn't get you championship. Go after LeBron and Wade.

Hellcrooner
08-10-2011, 04:43 PM
Further than youve gone with your eyeballs thats for sure. But actually he has, you just dont know how to measure success relative to his inherited assets and overall flexibility.

Besides why not mention the 2 Finalist this year? They are 2 of the most statistically advanced teams in the league and have used various metrics to influence their roster (down to the coach) and their game plan.

Better yet why not compare all the teams who use stats vs those that dont, care to guess which teams do better? To be honest though this doesnt tell you anything, you act as if it takes some sort of statistical insight to figure out that its a smart move to build around Dirk or Kobe or Bron etc.

It takes more intellect to find a diamond in the 2nd round, like Carl Landry than it does to agree to a trade for Pau Gasol. Obviously the trade for Pau Gasol will yield better results but it doesnt take a genius to agree to a trade for him. So why you choose to measure the validity of stats this way is beyond me but just know you have NOTHING to stand on.

I swear the next time I see you make a thread revolving around Pau Gasol and his defensive win shares Im going to shoot myself.


whats funny is that Gasol is not bad as a ( avenced) stats guy, but the real impact he makes on teams is something that its really difficult to find in a stats sheet.

Korman12
08-10-2011, 05:16 PM
No Havlicek love here.

Chronz
08-10-2011, 05:21 PM
whats funny is that Gasol is not bad as a ( avenced) stats guy, but the real impact he makes on teams is something that its really difficult to find in a stats sheet.

That doesnt stop you from citing how good his stats are does it?

dev0
08-10-2011, 05:30 PM
http://360special.blogspot.com/2011/08/my-top-100.html

dev0
08-10-2011, 05:43 PM
I think you guys have got Jerry West way too high
There's no way Julius Erving was better than LeBron is head-to-head
There's a couple modern players who would be better than classic NBA players. For example if Kevin Garnett were to ever meet George Mikan on the court, KG would eat him.
I voted Dirk for this one, he's underrated right now. Scottie Pippen deserves to be up there too.
http://360special.blogspot.com/2011/08/my-top-100.html Here's my biased top 100

Swashcuff
08-10-2011, 05:51 PM
I think you guys have got Jerry West way too high
There's no way Julius Erving was better than LeBron is head-to-head
There's a couple modern players who would be better than classic NBA players. For example if Kevin Garnett were to ever meet George Mikan on the court, KG would eat him.
I voted Dirk for this one, he's underrated right now. Scottie Pippen deserves to be up there too.
http://360special.blogspot.com/2011/08/my-top-100.html Here's my biased top 100


1 Wilt Chamberlain
2 Michael Jordan
3 Kobe Bryant

Could a mod please delete this. I've enjoyed reading Pats, Tre, Bruno, Chronz etc in this thread but this has no place in here.

Khalifa21
08-10-2011, 06:02 PM
http://360special.blogspot.com/2011/08/my-top-100.html

Is this your list?

If it is, it's absolutely laughable....

Wilt over MJ?
Kobe 3rd?
Dwayne Wade above Barkley and Robinson?
Durant over Jerry West, George Mikan, Bob Pettit and a ton of other people?

It's very rare I use it, but this is absolutely :facepalm: worthy...

Swashcuff
08-10-2011, 06:04 PM
Is this your list?

If it is, it's absolutely laughable....

Wilt over MJ?
Kobe 3rd?
Dwayne Wade above Barkley and Robinson?
Durant over Jerry West, George Mikan, Bob Pettit and a ton of other people?

It's very rare I use it, but this is absolutely :facepalm: worthy...

My thoughts exactly.

I don't use the facepalm much but that list is certainly deserving of one or a thousand.

RaPtOrS4PLAYoff
08-10-2011, 06:47 PM
pettit

nominate "pistol pete"

GhostfaceDrilla
08-10-2011, 06:54 PM
Dirk is so overrated. he has onlyy averaged 23.0 points a game through his career with disgustind defense. He should not be in top 25 discussion

LMAO Wade is so overrated. He had like 3 years where his team either got swept in the first round or didn't make the playoffs. Also, his FInals series consisted of 98 Free Throws. Dirk > Wade.

GhostfaceDrilla
08-10-2011, 06:56 PM
Dirk is so overrated. he has onlyy averaged 23.0 points a game through his career with disgustind defense. He should not be in top 25 discussion

Take out his first year when he was a role player. Then his average goes to like 25 or 26.

naps
08-10-2011, 07:02 PM
People who don't get love here: Pettit, Pippen, and Wade.

Lakersfan2483
08-10-2011, 10:01 PM
Bob Pettit for me again, far too many people are overlooking how great he was. He should have been in the top 20.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-11-2011, 04:07 AM
yep stat geeks Eric Money has taken the rockets sooooo faaar.

And what about the stat guy that was sitting on the bench when the Mavs won the championship?

Reversed86Curse
08-11-2011, 05:32 AM
Havlicek for like the 6th time in a row.

This. Seeing him still on the board with some of the others ahead of him is idiotic. The list started going down hill at 15 IMO

Knicks21
08-11-2011, 06:16 AM
Short Term memories kicking in.

Mile High Champ
08-11-2011, 03:07 PM
Come on Elgin Baylor already. This is getting plain stupid..

JasonJohnHorn
08-11-2011, 06:01 PM
This race should have been between Drexler and Pippen in my book. Though I wouldnt argue with anybody who went with Thomas.

dev0
08-11-2011, 06:24 PM
hey guys no need to be so rude, just trying to shake things up with my list. remember it's all about how talent would translate across decades - not about a lifetime achievement award. People get stuck to all-time lists and don't appreciate how good current players are in an all-time sense. What makes you all experts anyways, it's all about opinion. Just trying to create some controversy.
Ya MJ was the GOAT but get off his nuts already, Wilt dominated flat out in a way nobody has in any sport ever. It shocks me that people can under-appreciate 100 points.
Russell has 11 rings, but he never scored 81 in a game, he only averaged 15 ppg
etc.
there's always an argument to be made, that's why we make these kind of lists in the first place

LAKERMANIA
08-11-2011, 08:34 PM
This. Seeing him still on the board with some of the others ahead of him is idiotic. The list started going down hill at 15 IMO

Yeah this went from a great list to one of the worst all time lists I have ever seen...ever

PatsSoxKnicks
08-11-2011, 08:58 PM
Yeah this went from a great list to one of the worst all time lists I have ever seen...ever

All because Lebron went this high???

Personally, I would've had him a bit lower too, behind Dirk, Pettit and maybe Baylor. So maybe at around #25 but I don't think its an outrage that he's at #21, certainly not compared to some of the other guys like Mikan being that high and Stockton.

I definitely disagree with some things on this list, like Kobe being ahead of Duncan and Hakeem, Karl Malone being higher then DRob and some other guys, Stockton going really high, Mikan going really high, etc. but I don't think this list is one of the worst ever.

Lebron's prime/peak is better then everybody's save about 3 or 4 people (MJ, Wilt, Kareem). That should be taken into account. Instead, you and many others are focusing on 10 games of his career vs. a dominant peak and a great overall playoff career minus the Finals.

Heck, if we're allowed to cherry pick 10 games of anyone's Finals' runs, I'm willing to bet I could make Robert Horry look better then half the players on this list.

naps
08-11-2011, 09:05 PM
Yeah this went from a great list to one of the worst all time lists I have ever seen...ever

You would feel the same if Kobe was lower. The only reason for you it was great for you at the beginning because Kobe was #8 and now it's worst because LeBron is #21 :rolleyes:

LAKERMANIA
08-11-2011, 09:17 PM
You would feel the same if Kobe was lower. The only reason for you it was great for you at the beginning because Kobe was #8 and now it's worst because LeBron is #21 :rolleyes:

Nice generalization.. But I more or less give or take a few places I agree with the top 15, its 16-21 I laugh at..

David Robinson? Charles Barkley? John Stockton? Lebron James?

For God sakes Isaiah Thomas is going to be #23 player of all time... Its funny 90% of the top 20 are 90s and 80s players, now the 2000s are making their way into the list, did everyone forget there was a league before Jordan and Magic? Did everyone forget about Baylor Havlicek and Pettit?

Hellcrooner
08-11-2011, 09:43 PM
Nice generalization.. But I more or less give or take a few places I agree with the top 15, its 16-21 I laugh at..

David Robinson? Charles Barkley? John Stockton? Lebron James?

For God sakes Isaiah Thomas is going to be #23 player of all time... Its funny 90% of the top 20 are 90s and 80s players, now the 2000s are making their way into the list, did everyone forget there was a league before Jordan and Magic? Did everyone forget about Baylor Havlicek and Pettit?

i have not forgotten, but im the only one it seems.

can you beleive schayes and thurmond are not even in the list to vote yet?

ragee
08-11-2011, 09:46 PM
Nice generalization.. But I more or less give or take a few places I agree with the top 15, its 16-21 I laugh at..

David Robinson? Charles Barkley? John Stockton? Lebron James?

For God sakes Isaiah Thomas is going to be #23 player of all time... Its funny 90% of the top 20 are 90s and 80s players, now the 2000s are making their way into the list, did everyone forget there was a league before Jordan and Magic? Did everyone forget about Baylor Havlicek and Pettit?

I am fine with putting Havlicek and Pettit ahead of Dirk as long as you put Barkley and James behind him... Lebron has a shot at being the GOAT if he continues to work on his game and starts winning championships but as of right now, he is still behind Dirk!

Hellcrooner
08-11-2011, 09:56 PM
I am fine with putting Havlicek and Pettit ahead of Dirk as long as you put Barkley and James behind him... Lebron has a shot at being the GOAT if he continues to work on his game and starts winning championships but as of right now, he is still behind Dirk!

james? of course, Dirk has had a better career so far.

barkley? im undecided on that ( have been since june) to be honest.

Kobes a Killer
08-11-2011, 10:35 PM
Lebron ahead of dirk and pippen is an utter shame. Ya in ten years but not yet

DR_1
08-11-2011, 11:10 PM
Next poll???

LAKERMANIA
08-11-2011, 11:27 PM
I am fine with putting Havlicek and Pettit ahead of Dirk as long as you put Barkley and James behind him... Lebron has a shot at being the GOAT if he continues to work on his game and starts winning championships but as of right now, he is still behind Dirk!

Yeah I'm not saying Lebron never has a shot at the top 20 or even top 10, someday yes, but as of now if he were to retire tomorrow, putting him ahead of Baylor and Havlicek is LAUGHABLE at best..

Chronz
08-11-2011, 11:59 PM
Yeah I'm not saying Lebron never has a shot at the top 20 or even top 10, someday yes, but as of now if he were to retire tomorrow, putting him ahead of Baylor and Havlicek is LAUGHABLE at best..
Hardly, consider that Elgin has had a less impressive prime run than Bron already, at the least its comparable and then consider that when Hondo and Elgin were playing together, Elgin was seen as the superior performer. You can say he doesnt belong but to say its laughable exposes your bias.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-12-2011, 01:35 AM
Yeah I'm not saying Lebron never has a shot at the top 20 or even top 10, someday yes, but as of now if he were to retire tomorrow, putting him ahead of Baylor and Havlicek is LAUGHABLE at best..

Only if you're biased and seeing as how you're a Laker fan, I can see how that might be true (based on the Lakers fanbase' general perception/reaction towards Lebron).

Also, the fact that you're trying to judge Lebron on only 10 games in the Finals vs. the rest of his career #'s (playoffs or regular season) doesn't help. As I said earlier, if I took a random sampling of 10 Finals games from Robert Horry's career, I could probably make the case that he's better then half the people on this list based on any 10 Finals games of that players' career. Yes, its selective bias but thats essentially what you're doing. And again, ignoring the fact that he's taken some pretty crappy Cleveland teams pretty far.

Maybe I'll do it out to prove how idiotic it is to look at 10 Finals games and decide that 1 player is worse then another despite the former having a much superior prime/peak + superior playoff #'s outside of the Finals.

At the very least, you should have used longevity, which is a better argument against Lebron. As I said earlier, I don't have him this high because of longevity but its not laughable to have him at #21.

MacFitz92
08-12-2011, 04:25 AM
Dirk has done a lot in this league, and his resume speaks for itself.

LeBron gets a lot of hate, but 1.) He brings the majority upon himself, and 2.) ESPN, etc. hypes him up with the comparisons to Jordan which leads to inevitable hate. He just hasn't had a better career than Dirk, as of now.

Knicks21
08-12-2011, 05:21 AM
I can't believe Dirk is going to win. What happened to the PSD that i thought cared so much about defence?

MTar786
08-12-2011, 05:24 AM
Lebron ahead of dirk and pippen is an utter shame. Ya in ten years but not yet

lebrons already better than pippen.. but he is one champiosnhip away from being better than dirk.

so dirk should be over him right now imo.

plus we still got guys like

wade
ewing
thomas
iverson
petit

those guys in no particular order are better than pippen.

Hellcrooner
08-12-2011, 09:50 AM
lebrons already better than pippen.. but he is one champiosnhip away from being better than dirk.

so dirk should be over him right now imo.

plus we still got guys like

wade
ewing
thomas
iverson
petit

those guys in no particular order are better than pippen.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

i dont even know what the **** he is doing as an option to vote already.

Vincent33
08-12-2011, 09:58 AM
I would like to nominate Pete Maravich to be included on the poll.

goose14741
08-12-2011, 11:02 AM
worst all time list ever

Da Knicks
08-12-2011, 11:22 AM
i would like to nominate Willis Reed.

MacFitz92
08-12-2011, 11:46 AM
I can't believe Dirk is going to win. What happened to the PSD that i thought cared so much about defence?

You've been watching too much ESPN.. :shrug:

PatsSoxKnicks
08-12-2011, 01:00 PM
You've been watching too much ESPN.. :shrug:

I don't think ESPN says Dirk is a bad defender anymore????

Anyways, it's quite easy to prove he's been a pretty good defender using some different combination of #'s (like opponent PER, +/- (RAPM, Adjusted) data, synergy data, etc.)

I'll post the Synergy from last year, which is the only year I have actually but if you really want me to post the other #'s like RAPM and opponent PER, I can do that too.

Dirk's synergy #'s:


Dirk Nowitzki
Play %Time Number PPP Rank FG% 3PT%
Overall 100% 724 0.82 70 37.20% 34%
Isolation 19.30% 140 0.76 101 37.10% 20%
P&RBallHandler 2.30% 17 0.88 - 42.90% 25%
Post-Up 23.50% 170 0.72 34 37.70% -
P&R Roll Man 9.40% 68 0.78 23 36.20% 57.10%
Spot-Up 39% 282 0.9 97 37% 32.80%
Off Screen 4% 29 1.07 159 42.90% 41.70%
Hand Off 2.30% 17 0.65 - 23.10% 42.90%


Those are not the #'s of a bad defender. In fact, he seems to be pretty good on post ups and covering the man on the P&R.

LAKERMANIA
08-12-2011, 01:06 PM
Only if you're biased and seeing as how you're a Laker fan, I can see how that might be true (based on the Lakers fanbase' general perception/reaction towards Lebron).

Also, the fact that you're trying to judge Lebron on only 10 games in the Finals vs. the rest of his career #'s (playoffs or regular season) doesn't help. As I said earlier, if I took a random sampling of 10 Finals games from Robert Horry's career, I could probably make the case that he's better then half the people on this list based on any 10 Finals games of that players' career. Yes, its selective bias but thats essentially what you're doing. And again, ignoring the fact that he's taken some pretty crappy Cleveland teams pretty far.

Maybe I'll do it out to prove how idiotic it is to look at 10 Finals games and decide that 1 player is worse then another despite the former having a much superior prime/peak + superior playoff #'s outside of the Finals.

At the very least, you should have used longevity, which is a better argument against Lebron. As I said earlier, I don't have him this high because of longevity but its not laughable to have him at #21.

If Lebron James played 50 NBA Finals games and played bad in 10 of them, I understand, its not something to judge by, but he played 10 finals games, and played terrible in all of them. Its 10 of the most important games of his life, that is HARDLY a random sampling...

SteBO
08-12-2011, 01:11 PM
Dirk has done a lot in this league, and his resume speaks for itself.

LeBron gets a lot of hate, but 1.) He brings the majority upon himself, and 2.) ESPN, etc. hypes him up with the comparisons to Jordan which leads to inevitable hate. He just hasn't had a better career than Dirk, as of now.
Had Dirk not won a ring, I'm very interested as to where he'd be placed on this list, but I agree with you here to an extent.

Whether or not the hate upon LBJ is self-inflicted or not, it shouldn't be a factor in whether he should be placed in the top 20 or not. Not turns the entire voting process into an utter joke. Who cares what happens off the court, what counts is what he does on the court. It isn't laughable or a tragedy to have LeBron at #21 or above Dirk anywhere, because you can a make a legit case for it.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-12-2011, 01:14 PM
If Lebron James played 50 NBA Finals games and played bad in 10 of them, I understand, its not something to judge by, but he played 10 finals games, and played terrible in all of them. Its 10 of the most important games of his life, that is HARDLY a random sampling...

Again, I said a random sampling of 10 NBA Finals games.

Or let me try to be more clear, I said if I took 10 random NBA Finals games from say Manu Ginobili and compared that to 10 random NBA Finals games of Robert Horry, I could probably find a set where Horry is better then Ginobili.

What I'm essentially proving here is that 10 games is not a lot at all. A much more accurate judge of a player in the NBA Finals would be if he had, as you said 50 NBA Finals games.

Let me ask you this though, lets say Lebron's team gets to the Finals and has about 40 more NBA Finals games, do you really think 10 games is a lot out of 50? Just because he has 10 out of 10 now, it doesn't mean you should judge him solely on those 10 games.

He's got a crap load of playoff games though and I don't see why the rest of his playoff performances (which is still HIGH pressure) gets ignored. He's had some absolutely amazing performances (such as the 25 points to close the Pistons out in game 5) so its not like this is a guy that craps the bed in the playoffs and can't handle the pressure.

Admit it, you don't like him and its clouding your judgment. At the very least, if you're going to make an argument against him, use his lack of longevity, which is what I would use. He's played 8 years, which is not nearly enough for me and why he's below Dirk, Pettit and maybe some others.

tredigs
08-12-2011, 01:14 PM
If Lebron James played 50 NBA Finals games and played bad in 10 of them, I understand, its not something to judge by, but he played 10 finals games, and played terrible in all of them. Its 10 of the most important games of his life, that is HARDLY a random sampling...

He definitely didn't play "bad" in all of them, he just underperformed in a stage where we expected him to excel. We think this guy's going to challenge the GOATs, and anything less leaves us confused/ready to hate. Maybe rightfully so. I hold Finals performances in a HUGE regard - it's the ENTIRE reason they play the game - and Dirk absolutely should have gone ahead of Lebron (and both+ more should absolutely should be behind Pettit... you guys are idiots). That said, why is Lebron still being discussed? He got picked, it's done. Let's focus people.

Edit: PatsSox, I would disagree with you that 10 games is not a lot when it pertains to the Finals. 10 Finals games is more than most will play in their career, and he was near or at prime for all of them. These weren't random season games where it's possible he wasn't giving it his all, etc. FINALS games. THE point of the game of basketball, and he's sucked (for his/our standards), there's no way around that.

SteBO
08-12-2011, 01:17 PM
If Lebron James played 50 NBA Finals games and played bad in 10 of them, I understand, its not something to judge by, but he played 10 finals games, and played terrible in all of them. Its 10 of the most important games of his life, that is HARDLY a random sampling...
He wasn't terrible in all of those games. That statement is false.

Sorry, but as of now, 10 NBA finals games vs. 8 years of 82-game regular season games including the playoffs outside those Finals games isn't a fair draw. Rings and postseason success do in fact play a big factor, but just getting to the Finals is an accomplishment. Maybe not what everyone agrees with, but it's reality.

tredigs
08-12-2011, 01:25 PM
He wasn't terrible in all of those games. That statement is false.

Sorry, but as of now, 10 NBA finals games vs. 8 years of 82-game regular season games including the playoffs outside those Finals games isn't a fair draw. Rings and postseason success do in fact play a big factor, but just getting to the Finals is an accomplishment. Maybe not what everyone agrees with, but it's reality.

Which is why I'd have him as a top 25 player all time (probably 23), not top 20. How does he go ahead of Bob Pettit, honestly? The argument falls apart in a matter of seconds. If you can disregard your Heat fandom, would you disagree?

Getting to the Finals is fantastic, but it pales in comparison to how a superstar performs on THE stage. And despite any stats we can possibly extrapolate that may suggest otherwise, we all saw how ghost/weak he has been. I expect this to change, and I expect him to finish his career as high as top 3-5, but bottom line, so far it hasn't. And we can't upgrade him based on expectations.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-12-2011, 01:28 PM
Edit: PatsSox, I would disagree with you that 10 games is not a lot when it pertains to the Finals. 10 Finals games is more than most will play in their career, and he was near or at prime for all of them. These weren't random season games where it's possible he wasn't giving it his all, etc. FINALS games. THE point of the game of basketball, and he's sucked (for his/our standards), there's no way around that.

I still think that at some point you have to look at the rest of his playoff #'s. Also, I would say that his 2007 season was pre-prime. Don't forget, he was 22 years old going up against a HOF legend still at or near his best, and 2 all-star worthy players with a team made up of mostly crap. I personally don't see how you can fault him for the performance against San Antonio, who had a tremendous defense, one of the best defensive players of all-time guarding the paint and was way more experienced + talented. Plus, as I said, Bron was 22.

This current Finals certainly falls squarely on Lebron. But I'm willing to look past that and look at some other tremendous performances in the playoffs and the general large sample size of playoff games that point to a player actually playing very well in the playoffs.

I do agree that Bron should be behind Dirk and Pettit, as well as perhaps Baylor and Hondo. But do you really think its laughable? To me, laughable is Mikan going that high or Stockton. I think this is basically on the level of Kobe going ahead of Duncan + Hakeem.

SteBO
08-12-2011, 01:30 PM
Which is why I'd have him as a top 25 player all time (probably 23), not top 20. How does he go ahead of Bob Pettit, honestly? The argument falls apart in a matter of seconds. If you can disregard your Heat fandom, would you disagree?

Getting to the Finals is fantastic, but it pales in comparison to how a superstar performs on THE stage. And any stats we can possibly extrapolate that suggest otherwise, we all saw how ghost/weak he has been. I expect this to change, and I expect him to finish his career as high as top 3-5, but bottom line, so far it hasn't. And we can't upgrade him based on expectations.
All fair points, my friend. I can disregard my Heat fandom and agree with you 100%. As a matter of fact, I will do that.

I simply disagree with the fact that putting LeBron in the Top 20 is laughable I honestly don't think it is when you factor in the number's he's put up in the regular season and the playoffs, his entire career. :shrug:

The NBA finals cannot the only thing people point to when judging a player and comparing him to the greats, which is all I've been reading the last couple of pages. That isn't a fair assessment. Why are so many people just throwing out Game 5 vs. the Pistons, Celtics series last year, Bulls series last year, and many others out the window? That's not how you evaluate great players.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-12-2011, 01:34 PM
Which is why I'd have him as a top 25 player all time (probably 23), not top 20. How does he go ahead of Bob Pettit, honestly? The argument falls apart in a matter of seconds. If you can disregard your Heat fandom, would you disagree?

Getting to the Finals is fantastic, but it pales in comparison to how a superstar performs on THE stage. And despite any stats we can possibly extrapolate that may suggest otherwise, we all saw how ghost/weak he has been. I expect this to change, and I expect him to finish his career as high as top 3-5, but bottom line, so far it hasn't. And we can't upgrade him based on expectations.

I agree, but my main reason is his lack of longevity. Guy hasn't even played a decade yet.

But, take out Mikan and Stockton, who I think we both agree went way too high and replace them with Pettit and Dirk. Then you have Lebron in competition with Baylor, Hondo, and Stockton. Who do you take out of that bunch? Maybe Hondo, then Baylor and then Bron? That puts him at #23 I believe, which is only 2 spots lower then where he actually went.

tredigs
08-12-2011, 01:43 PM
You guys get it. We agree.

cowboyz180
08-12-2011, 01:49 PM
Dirk.... I have no idea how Lebron is ahead of him! If we are talking about AT THIS MOMENT, Dirk has had the better career

PatsSoxKnicks
08-12-2011, 01:55 PM
tre, I'm going to use the Finals argument you've been pointing to for a case of Dirk>Pettit. As I'm sure you're aware, Dirk has actually become a pretty good defender. Those synergy #'s include playoffs too, and in all honesty, I was surprised at how good those #'s were. So Dirk's defense is something I don't think you can use against him for this past championship run.

Both Dirk and Pettit are 1 time NBA champions so I would assume you'd want to weight the Finals run rather heavily or at least, considering comparable #'s overall, I think it could be a deciding factor.

But anyways, getting back to their respective Finals, I'm sure you're aware of my posts where I've pointed to Pettit as being at best a 1b) and in actuality, probably a #2 for the playoff run. And looking specifically at the NBA Finals, Hagan actually had a higher FG% and TS% for the series (I had posted this in another thread, I'll try to find the link with the exact #'s), despite Pettit's 50 point game. Maybe due to that game, had their been a Finals MVP, Pettit may have won it but I think its a fair assumption to think that they perhaps split the Finals MVP.

On the other hand, in a similar case of underdog vs. goliath, Dirk was clearly the best player on the floor in the 2010 Finals. Dirk was going to hold up that Finals MVP and there was no doubt about it. Plus, his #2 for this year, was not a future HOFer, as Cliff Hagan was (I realize Kidd is but he was not the #2 on the team). Both guys went up against essentially super teams, the difference being that Dirk was the clear cut #1 guy whereas Pettit was in a 1a/1b situation.

Anyways, that would be my argument for Dirk over Pettit. Hopefully, it was a decent case.

PS- You will have my full backing for Pettit in the next poll though, especially as I'm strongly opposed to Isiah going this high (that IMO would be laughable to use the term correctly).

Geargo Wallace
08-12-2011, 02:35 PM
I dunno why but it feels weird that Dirk is this high. Great arguments have been posted but it doesn't seem right to me.

tredigs
08-12-2011, 02:48 PM
On my phone so this will be brief, but as far as Pettit in the finals we HAVE to give great weight to the clinching game 6 over the Celtics that year he was 1b. Its arguably the greatest finals performance in history given the stage/competition. I think his stats wound up as a 50/20 game. To win the ship. Legendary. Also, theres the season where his cast was so pourous around him that they finished the season slightly under. 500, but won 2... 2.... Single elimination playoff games en route ti sweeeping the conference finals and taking Russell/Cousys Celtics to 7 in the Finals. All as the clead top dog, it was hus doing.

Dirk was great in the playoffs and in most Finals 4th quarters, but I think we can agree he had some issues and it showed up in the 42 percent shooting.

Plus, I just think Pettits career was far greater than Dirks. One if the best defensive bigs of his generation to supplement his s oring titles, and a legendary rebounder who Bill Russell often praised. 3rd highest rebound average in HISTORY. 7Th highest scoring avg. in HISTORY. 10... 10.... Straight All NBA 1st team nods.

As much as I like Dirk, I really dont think he is touching that legacy at this point.

And this was longer than I expected.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-12-2011, 03:55 PM
On my phone so this will be brief, but as far as Pettit in the finals we HAVE to give great weight to the clinching game 6 over the Celtics that year he was 1b. Its arguably the greatest finals performance in history given the stage/competition. I think his stats wound up as a 50/20 game. To win the ship. Legendary. Also, theres the season where his cast was so pourous around him that they finished the season slightly under. 500, but won 2... 2.... Single elimination playoff games en route ti sweeeping the conference finals and taking Russell/Cousys Celtics to 7 in the Finals. All as the clead top dog, it was hus doing.

Dirk was great in the playoffs and in most Finals 4th quarters, but I think we can agree he had some issues and it showed up in the 42 percent shooting.

Plus, I just think Pettits career was far greater than Dirks. One if the best defensive bigs of his generation to supplement his s oring titles, and a legendary rebounder who Bill Russell often praised. 3rd highest rebound average in HISTORY. 7Th highest scoring avg. in HISTORY. 10... 10.... Straight All NBA 1st team nods.

As much as I like Dirk, I really dont think he is touching that legacy at this point.

And this was longer than I expected.

Don't forget about Dirk and the Mavs' run to the Finals in 06. I think if you look at that team, it's lacking in the star power you typically see from NBA champions. I suppose Terry has cemented himself as a legit #2 but consider the fact that he's a liability on defense, you even question whether he was a #2 in either playoff run. Both Mavs teams were obviously very deep which is what helped them get there. However, lacking in the star power you typically see on a championship caliber team.

I would look at Dirk leading the Mavs to the Finals in 06 in the same light that I would Barkley leading the Suns to the Finals in 93. Dirk gets a nice check mark for that.

From an accolade standpoint, I think they are relatively even. Both have 1 ship, we'll give Pettit that NBA Finals MVP that he may have won either outright or split with Hagan so both have 1 Finals MVP, Pettit has 1 more MVP and 1 more all-star game appearance. The 10x All-NBA first team is also in favor of Pettit, though Dirk does have a combined 11 All-NBA teams, same as Pettit.

Maybe Pettit gets a slight edge there but nothing major.

Numbers wise (yes I'm popping out those #'s I calculated out):

Win Shares:


career best 3 5 consc playoff 10 consec
Dirk 161.3 50.1 77.2 15.08 141.3



career best 3 5 consc playoff 10 consec
Pettit 136.0 44.6 67.1 11.11 129.0


EWA (PER's cousin):


career best 3 5 consc playoff 10 consec
Dirk 219.94 70.04 107.86 22.71 196.44



career best 3 5 consc playoff 10 consec
Pettit 210.71 66.73 103.73 18.52 201.79


Dirk has the peak/prime on him and he's got the longevity. However, I realize that perhaps Pettit's defensive value is underrated here, especially with them not recording blocks throughout Pettit's career. I think the non keeping of turnovers isn't much of an issue.

Some more #'s though:

While Pettit lead the league in PER 4 straight years (which is remarkable), Dirk led the league in PER 2 straight years. In addition, Dirk has led the league in Win Shares 2 times vs. the 1 time for Pettit. Dirk also led the league in WS/48 3 times vs. Pettit never did this.

Dirk currently also has the higher WS/48, although barely, you could consider it even basically. But Dirk has also played in the NBA longer. Pettit finished his career at age 32 (which is pretty early) and Dirk just finished his season at age 32. However, Dirk came into the league younger and so had more tread on his tires at age 32.

Plus, Dirk's overall #'s are hurt by a very weak rookie year. Pettit hit the ground running.

With the playoff #'s, I feel like I've captured that pretty nicely with the numbers above. Each player has their best 3 playoff runs with 500+ mins weighted in. But even looking at their advanced career playoff #'s, Dirk is quite clearly better.

I do think from a numbers stand point, it's quite obvious Dirk is better. However, if you want to question the stats I've used, I have no problems. Win Shares may underrate Pettit's totals due to them not keeping track of blocks.

Anyways, between Dirk's superior #'s, only slight disadvantage in accolades + him leading 2 separate teams to the NBA Finals as the clear #1 with no HOF/All-Star caliber #2, and his championship coming as the clear #1 vs. 1b, I think thats a fairly strong case for him over Pettit.

SaimuKala
08-12-2011, 05:29 PM
Dirk here.

DR_1
08-12-2011, 10:54 PM
All fair points, my friend. I can disregard my Heat fandom and agree with you 100%. As a matter of fact, I will do that.


Stebo is now my favorite Heat fan.

RZZZA
08-12-2011, 10:56 PM
How is Scottie Pippen still on the board, but we're voting in guys like Lebron James and Dirk Nowitzki ahead of him?

SteBO
08-13-2011, 09:39 AM
Looks like Dirk won this one........On to the next poll :)