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JordansBulls
08-07-2011, 02:16 PM
RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.
NO POSTING in your FORUM, VOTE for this GUY. We had problems last time with it and NO POSTING in someone Else's Forum to VOTE for a certain player.


Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.


Voting for #20 has concluded and PSD's Official #20 NBA Player of all time is....

Kevin Garnett


Top 3 Voters


Kevin Garnett = 34 votes
Lebron James = 16 votes
Isiah Thomas = 9 votes


The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)
20. Kevin Garnett (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641975)

Voting will now begin for the #21 NBA Player All Time


NOTE: You can only nominate one player and that player had to be an allstar multiple times at least probably at least 3 times at a minimum. The player who has the most nomination votes will be added to the next poll. Anyone who nominates more than one player there nomination will be disregarded.


2nd NOTE: Have seen a lot of posters just vote, but not make a single comment in the thread on there choice. We need you to participate and say why you chose who you did. Basically support it. If not, then don't see why your vote should count.

JordansBulls
08-07-2011, 02:22 PM
VOTE: Bob Pettit. Pettit won the 1st MVP of the league and won another one with Russell in the league and actually beat the Celtics with Russell on it and it was the only series Russell lost with HCA. Now it is true that Russell missed a lot of the series, but here is a few details as well:


Look at the 1958 finals.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1958.htm

Pettit shot bad who shot 58/137 or 42% FG, but Russell shot even worse. He shot 17/49 for 35% FG as a Center in the finals and overall Russel shot 36% in the playoffs that year. People say it was defense, but when you look at every team, each one of these guys were pretty pathetic.



Pettit first 3 games

11-22
8-20
10-23


Russell first 3 games

4-15
7-15
4-12


Game 4 Russell missed and Pettit was 3-17. So Pettit was on lock once Russell was gone.

Game 5 Russell missed and Pettit was 7-21 that game.


Game 6 Russell comes back and Pettit was 19-34.


So yeah, Russell didn't really have an effect on Pettit.
In fact, Pettit played much much better when Russell was there.

So really can we say it was Russell who limited Pettit when Pettit only played bad when Russell didn't play?


Overall for Pettit when Russell played:

11-22
8-20
10-23
19-34

48%

Games in which Russell missed Pettit was:

3-17
7-21

26%


So yeah, the C's held down Pettit when Russell was gone. So maybe Russell gets too much credit for his defense than he should especially when you consider Pettit was the Center as well.

Also he led in PER 4x in a row.

Has 2 league MVP's as well.

Also he brought the Hawks it's only title in team history.

NBAfan4life
08-07-2011, 02:29 PM
Is there an argument for Havlicek over Pettit? I'm wondering from some of you historians before I vote for pettit.

Chronz
08-07-2011, 02:53 PM
Theres a good case to be made for alot of players but I'm taking Dirk before Pettit as hes basically the modern version of him, which makes him better imo.

Elgin, Hondo, and a few others I'm sure

Knick Killer
08-07-2011, 03:20 PM
Lets compare the top 6 vote-getters of last pool:

Points+Rebounds+Assists:
John Havlicek 40516
Bob Pettit 36098
Dirk Nowitzki 33762
Scottie Pippen 32569
Isiah Thomas 31361
LeBron James 26177

Championships:
John Havlicek 8
Scottie Pippen 6
Isiah Thomas 2
Bob Pettit 1
Dirk Nowitzki 1
LeBron James 0

PatsSoxKnicks
08-07-2011, 03:23 PM
Theres a good case to be made for alot of players but I'm taking Dirk before Pettit as hes basically the modern version of him, which makes him better imo.

Elgin, Hondo, and a few others I'm sure

I agree. Plus, for what its worth, there's no question that Dirk was the #1 when he won his championship. The same isn't true for Pettit, who was at best a 1a but was worse then Hagan throughout their championship run. His shooting numbers were also worse then Hagan in the Finals. Between his rebounding and defense, I suppose you could make a good case for him as a co #1 but Hagan ended that playoff run with more WS, PER and a higher TS%.

Edit: On second thought,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/STL/1958.html

Look at the playoff numbers, how the heck do you make the case that Pettit was even near Hagan in that playoff run? Hagan's TS%/eFG% was nearly 10 points higher. Hagan's PER was 5 points higher.

Anyways, getting back to Dirk vs. Pettit, from a numbers standpoint, Dirk's offense is better. So unless someone can sway me with the fact that Pettit's defense was WAY superior to Dirk's, I'm going Dirk here.

LAKERMANIA
08-07-2011, 03:25 PM
I'm actually switching my vote to Havlicek

Chacarron
08-07-2011, 03:39 PM
I like Pettit here.

ryanj12344
08-07-2011, 04:02 PM
gotta go isiah

B'sCeltsPatsSox
08-07-2011, 04:13 PM
Going with Havlicek.

Ebbs
08-07-2011, 04:40 PM
LeBron than Dirk. maybe the other way round at this point but I'm thinking when careers are said and done.

DR_1
08-07-2011, 04:49 PM
LeBron than Dirk. maybe the other way round at this point but I'm thinking when careers are said and done.

We're voting on what they actually have done, not their potential, or else Rose and Griffin would be getting votes.

tredigs
08-07-2011, 06:05 PM
Lets compare the top 6 vote-getters of last pool:

Points+Rebounds+Assists:
John Havlicek 40516
Bob Pettit 36098
Dirk Nowitzki 33762
Scottie Pippen 32569
Isiah Thomas 31361
LeBron James 26177

Championships:
John Havlicek 8
Scottie Pippen 6
Isiah Thomas 2
Bob Pettit 1
Dirk Nowitzki 1
LeBron James 0

But are we going to include how many seasons they played (Havlicek 16, Pettit 11, for example) or who their teammates were (Bill Russell, Cowens, etc)? Hondo was probably only the best player on one of his championship teams, and while absolutely a damn good all around player, I don't think he stacks up favorably to Pettit.

Havlicek: 0 MVPs (1 Finals MVP - tho' an unfair comparison to Pettit as it didn't exist in the year he won it), 0 scoring titles, 0 times leading the league in PER or Win Shares (rarely cracked the top ten in PER, and never ranked even 4th highest in either during his career), and actually looking at his stats, he never led the league in anything except for minutes played. 4x All-NBA First team, 7x All-NBA second team.

Pettit: 2 MVPs, 2 scoring titles, led the league in PER 4 straight seasons, Win Shares once (top 5 virtually every season he played in both categories), career - 11 seasons - averages of 26.4 ppg (7th all time), 16.2 rpg (3rd all time after Russell and Chamberlain). Also 7th All Time in PER (just behind D. Wade, who he'll likely pass back up once Wade regresses). Forgot to add, All-NBA 1st team his first 10 seasons, 2nd Team his final season (alongside Wilt - who were both edged by Russell and Jerry Lucas that year).

Better comparison is Hondo versus Elgin Baylor, really. And being that Baylor's the main reason why he didn't make an All-NBA first team his first 9 seasons (until Baylor retired), it's another comparison that does not favor Havlicek.

Next three (as far as older legends go) should be Pettit > Baylor > Havlicek. Dirk should go somewhere after Pettit, and probably after Baylor. Given Havlicek's great D, it's a good argument between him and Dirk. Not sure where I'd go there.

And I really don't Lebron's career > Dirk right now. He should be going after that group I just listed.

cowboyz180
08-07-2011, 06:16 PM
dirk is getting my vote for #21.... How can Lebron have 9 votes?! That is ludicrous. He hasn't done anything to be this high

MackSnackWrap
08-07-2011, 06:21 PM
Lbj

DR_1
08-07-2011, 06:30 PM
dirk is getting my vote for #21.... How can Lebron have 9 votes?! That is ludicrous. He hasn't done anything to be this high

Did you see the poster below you? He's got Heat fan written all over him. That's who is mostly voting LeBron.

Bubba313
08-07-2011, 06:36 PM
How the **** is Lebron getting looks over Isiah?

This coming from a Knicks fan

DR_1
08-07-2011, 06:39 PM
How the **** is Lebron getting looks over Isiah?

This coming from a Knicks fan

I'm surprised him and Elgin Baylor haven't gotten more votes.

Ebbs
08-07-2011, 06:53 PM
Dirk and LeBron if they both retired now both hands down I'll take them over Isaiah

LAKERMANIA
08-07-2011, 06:55 PM
Wow this is so funny, Lebron at 21.... WOW

PatsSoxKnicks
08-07-2011, 07:00 PM
Isiah is overrated. The bad boy Pistons won primarily on interior defense, something he had nothing to do with.

MJ-BULLS
08-07-2011, 07:01 PM
John Havlicek

KingPosey
08-07-2011, 07:03 PM
We're voting on what they actually have done, not their potential, or else Rose and Griffin would be getting votes.

I doubt rose and griffin are thought of as being in the top 15 players of all time already. Even if its based on potential thats an extreme stretch.

DR_1
08-07-2011, 07:28 PM
I doubt rose and griffin are thought of as being in the top 15 players of all time already. Even if its based on potential thats an extreme stretch.

Of course it's a stretch. That's my point. Voting LeBron is also a stretch.

SpeeMN
08-07-2011, 07:34 PM
Look at Bob McAdoo's statistics, he was amazing

Hellcrooner
08-07-2011, 07:56 PM
taking thomas.

2 rings.


AND the fact that he Defeated in their way 3 of the best 5 teams ever created in Magics lakers, Birds celtics and Jordans bulls.

Hellcrooner
08-07-2011, 07:57 PM
Look at Bob McAdoo's statistics, he was amazing

when he was amazing at stats his teams sucked, he failed miserably in NY.


His titles came as a role player.

Lakersfan2483
08-07-2011, 08:45 PM
Bob Petit

Lakersfan2483
08-07-2011, 08:46 PM
I nominate Reggie Miller to the top 50 list.

Bruno
08-07-2011, 10:22 PM
LeBron will take #21 because everyone who values long careers/longevity and strong NBA Finals performances are split amongst Dirk, Petit, Thomas, & Havlicek.

IMO this is about 4-5 spots too high for LBJ, I'd take him closer to the #25 range. How LBJ gets selected over the other multiple MVP award winner who just waxed him in the finals is beyond me. IMO Pippen still ranks higher than LeBron. This is not a vote of peak. It is a vote of overall career, and LBJ is still only 26.

kozelkid
08-07-2011, 10:49 PM
LeBron will take #21 because everyone who values long careers/longevity and strong NBA Finals performances are split amongst Dirk, Petit, Thomas, & Havlicek.

IMO this is about 4-5 spots too high for LBJ, I'd take him closer to the #25 range. How LBJ gets selected over the other multiple MVP award winner who just waxed him in the finals is beyond me. IMO Pippen still ranks higher than LeBron. This is not a vote of peak. It is a vote of overall career, and LBJ is still only 26.

Agreed on all accounts.

Avenged
08-08-2011, 12:34 AM
Lebron? Are you guys for real?

:confused:

tredigs
08-08-2011, 12:57 AM
Lebron has a fine argument at 21, but not ahead of the guys we still have up there. Pettit and Dirk, specifically.

Oh and PatsSox, I just saw your post earlier concerning whether or not Pettit's D was indeed that much better than Dirks. It was. I'm having trouble finding evidence to back it up outside of just watching old games and seeing another forum where a seasoned/older poster made a great thread and actually compiled ALL-NBA defensive teams (1st and 2nd along with DPOY - which Russell would've won anywhere from 9-11!) for the era's that didn't have it. Had the award been around, his views were that Pettit would've been All-NBA 1st team defense half his career, and 2nd team defense the other half (along with the overall All-NBA 1st team that he was the entire decade). Outside of Russell, Chamberlain and Nate Thurmond (who came a little later) he was probably the best defensive big of the generation. His game was much more well rounded than Dirk because of that, and it's a big reason (the others being his legendary rebounding to supplement those scoring titles, and his domination of his peers that Dirk never reached) I have him slightly over Dirk.

Just seeing that on the other list currently doing these rankings, Lebron actually did go just ahead of Pettit (at 18, Bob went next at 19). Dirk went 17. That's a mistake in my opinion, but at least they got him and Dirk in in their top 20. They didn't make the blunders we did in voting Mikan or Stockton top 20.

It's annoying me that Pettit's still on the board. Sick of talking about how dominant he was, I want a new choice to talk up.

Bruno
08-08-2011, 01:10 AM
^Stockton in the top 20 is the only serious blunder I see on our list. He should have been in the 25-30 range. I'm on the fence with Petit, I want to vote for him..

Chronz
08-08-2011, 01:32 AM
The 2 white guys making top 20 was a blunder. Pettit would smash on Mikan. Stockton is easier to swallow.

ragee
08-08-2011, 01:33 AM
What has Lebron done to prove he is number 20? What if Lebron ends his career right now... Would he be deserving of the 20th spot?

My vote is Dirk... The Mavs will not be where they are at if it weren't for him...

Ebbs
08-08-2011, 01:45 AM
I think LeBron's prime is already worthy. But I got ahead of myself all things considered since Dirk has been a star longer I would like to change my vote to Dirk.

naps
08-08-2011, 02:03 AM
Wow this is so funny, Lebron at 21.... WOW

Much much less funnier than Kobe #8 (Which he got by luck anyway because neutral/rational voters were split between Duncan and Hakeem).

PatsSoxKnicks
08-08-2011, 02:18 AM
Much much less funnier than Kobe #8 (Which he got by luck anyway because neutral/rational voters were split between Duncan and Hakeem).

Yeah, I'd have to agree with this.

And for what its worth, Lebron's prime/peak absolutely craps on everybody's not named MJ, Wilt or Kareem. The only reason he isn't higher for me is because he's only played 8 seasons.

conway429
08-08-2011, 02:22 AM
does nobody know who Elgin Baylor is?

PatsSoxKnicks
08-08-2011, 02:29 AM
tredigs, good points. I do feel like Dirk's D (more recently) isn't as bad as its reputation. At this point, he's certainly above average. I realize Pettit was probably an outstanding defensive player and way better then Dirk but I think you have to also balance that out with the offense. Dirk is no doubt better in that regard.

I suppose the reason I'm leaning towards Dirk more is because as I said earlier, him leading the Mavs over the heavyweight Heat as the clear cut #1 holds more appeal then Pettit's title where he was arguably (and probably not) the #1 on that team. In fact, I still think its fairly clear that Hagan was better in that playoff run, even when you factor in defense.

Perhaps thats a lot of stock being put in their respective championship runs but from a Win Share/PER perspective, Dirk is better in best 3 years, best 5 consecutive years, best decade, and career. Dirk also led the league in WS/48 3 straight years.

In any case, I suppose Pettit's defense is good enough that you could make a good argument for him over Dirk. Personally, I think (and I believe you agree) that both of these guys should've already been off the board.

tredigs
08-08-2011, 02:37 AM
Yeah, I'd have to agree with this.

And for what its worth, Lebron's prime/peak absolutely craps on everybody's not named MJ, Wilt or Kareem. The only reason he isn't higher for me is because he's only played 8 seasons.

Two Finals appearances where his production went down so significantly has to be weighed in significantly also. The ENTIRE reason (from a basketball perspective) you play the game is to play in that series. It's weight is large enough to me (if you're lucky - from a team perspective - and good enough to make it there) that his two lackluster performances do indeed bring down his overall stock. Even in the finals of the ship that Pettit won and he was the 1b, his overall game was still fantastic in the games he shot poorly, and in the clinching game 6 against those Celtics, he put up one of the most legendary games of Finals history. 50 points on 19-34 (then playoff record) in the 110-109 win.

Concerning Dirk and Lebron, their career resumes are comparable before we even start the playoffs this year (with the argument being whether or not you value peak greatly enough to beat out Dirk's elite/superstar status that probably falls short of peak Lebron, but has years of play on him). But the kicker in Dirk's favor at this point is how dominant he was in the 4th quarter of all the Finals games, taking the team on his back to the title while Lebron inexplicably went ghost on us.

I really can't understand how we could all have JUST watched that performance and still have a majority of people take Lebron over Dirk here (especially given they were PLAYING EACH OTHER). I didn't think they were going to be initially, but the Heat were indeed good enough to win it this year, and if Lebron played like he can and usually does, then they would've beat the Mavs. But, he did not.

edit: Just seeing your post above this one PatsSox, and yeah - I agree. His D's fine and probably slightly above average at this point. But it certainly wasn't on par with even Pettit's worst years. And scoring wise, I know Pettit wasn't as efficient as Dirk's godlike levels, but he WAS top ten in TS% for half his career (that should count for something), and actually has two scoring titles to his name. We can call those two a wash. The kicker in Pettit's favor from a statistical standpoint is his rebounding. Accolade wise, Pettit > Dirk quite comfortably. As a whole, I just think his is a stronger overall argument.

And yeah, they should both be off, followed by Baylor and Lebron imo. Again, Stockton/Mikan... can't get behind those.

THE MTL
08-08-2011, 03:00 AM
I voted for Isiah Thomas! The best little man to ever play the game is still on the board. Anyway, if it was between Dirk and Lebron, I would have to go with Lebron James whose career is ALREADY on-par with Dirk minus the Finals MVP/championship which was achieved at 33.

tredigs
08-08-2011, 03:08 AM
I voted for Isiah Thomas! The best little man to ever play the game is still on the board. Anyway, if it was between Dirk and Lebron, I would have to go with Lebron James whose career is ALREADY on-par with Dirk minus the Finals MVP/championship which was achieved at 33.

You're projecting/assuming the future rather than evaluating their careers as they actually are though. Injuries, etc. happen. We can't just take the future for granted and assume he'll continue to dominate at this level and win titles (fwiw, I do think he will, but I'm not going to just assume it). And if he DID retire tomorrow along with Dirk, then imo this finals puts him ahead of LBJ.

Some say Lebron has the most theoretical championships in league history. They have a point...

Lakersfan2483
08-08-2011, 03:49 AM
LeBron will take #21 because everyone who values long careers/longevity and strong NBA Finals performances are split amongst Dirk, Petit, Thomas, & Havlicek.

IMO this is about 4-5 spots too high for LBJ, I'd take him closer to the #25 range. How LBJ gets selected over the other multiple MVP award winner who just waxed him in the finals is beyond me. IMO Pippen still ranks higher than LeBron. This is not a vote of peak. It is a vote of overall career, and LBJ is still only 26.

Agreed. I believe Lebron is definitely in the top 30 for sure. I have him around 23 or 24 all time. As far as Pippen and LBJ, I believe Lebron has surpassed him in terms of what he has done over his career. Lebron has won 2 regular season mvps, led his team to the finals twice as the no. 1 guy, has had monstrous statistical seasons in both the regular and postseason respectively (career avgs. in terms of ppg are in the top 5 all time in both playoffs and regular season). He's already scored over 17,000 pts in only 8 yrs, over 4000 rebs and assists. It really is remarkable how much he has accomplished in such a limited amt. of time.

SaimuKala
08-08-2011, 04:05 AM
Dirk

Lakersfan2483
08-08-2011, 04:06 AM
I am still surprised that Elgin Baylor is still on the board as he's definitely a top 20 player of all time. Ditto for Bob Petit. Stockton and Mikan are already on the list, but Baylor and Pettit aren't? Strange.

LakersIn5
08-08-2011, 09:32 AM
lebron is the best available

todu82
08-08-2011, 12:36 PM
Lebron James

GhostfaceDrilla
08-08-2011, 01:43 PM
LeBron getting this many votes is a joke. After his career, let's say he wins no rings but still gets his projected stats. Based on talent alone, yes he probably will be top 10. But now, Dirk, Pettit, Havlicek, and Thomas are before him easily.

Dirk right here.

alencp3
08-08-2011, 02:28 PM
what happened lebron was leading by like 10 votes two hours ago ?!?!

tredigs
08-08-2011, 02:48 PM
what happened lebron was leading by like 10 votes two hours ago ?!?!

Yeah, just clicked on some of the names who voted Isiah that I didn't recognize. "BBallin, BigOver, Bullsfan, Crew4lulz, DetroitCity" are all "fake" accounts. All signed up today and have 0 posts, which means they're all probably one dude. Didn't check all the names under Thomas either, could be more.

This one's still Lebron.

GhostfaceDrilla
08-08-2011, 03:00 PM
Yeah, just clicked on some of the names who voted Isiah that I didn't recognize. "BBallin, BigOver, Bullsfan, Crew4lulz, DetroitCity" are all "fake" accounts. All signed up today and have 0 posts, which means they're all probably one dude. Didn't check all the names under Thomas either, could be more.

This one's still Lebron.

Anyone who has time to make 5 different e-mail accounts and sign up for 5 different accounts just to add some votes for a top NBA players opinionated list has NO LIFE. Man that is sad.

JordansBulls
08-08-2011, 03:21 PM
Yeah, just clicked on some of the names who voted Isiah that I didn't recognize. "BBallin, BigOver, Bullsfan, Crew4lulz, DetroitCity" are all "fake" accounts. All signed up today and have 0 posts, which means they're all probably one dude. Didn't check all the names under Thomas either, could be more.

This one's still Lebron.

Which is why we do a public poll. If by the time the poll ends, then just lists out the accounts that were fake.

But also in my note, I mentioned if you didn't participate in the thread then no need to count your vote.

NBAfan4life
08-08-2011, 04:55 PM
Mikan going where he went is much worse than Lebron going here. I'm not even a Lebron supporter nor do I think he should go here

Chronz
08-08-2011, 05:12 PM
edit: Just seeing your post above this one PatsSox, and yeah - I agree. His D's fine and probably slightly above average at this point. But it certainly wasn't on par with even Pettit's worst years. And scoring wise, I know Pettit wasn't as efficient as Dirk's godlike levels, but he WAS top ten in TS% for half his career (that should count for something), and actually has two scoring titles to his name. We can call those two a wash. The kicker in Pettit's favor from a statistical standpoint is his rebounding. Accolade wise, Pettit > Dirk quite comfortably. As a whole, I just think his is a stronger overall argument.

And yeah, they should both be off, followed by Baylor and Lebron imo. Again, Stockton/Mikan... can't get behind those.
The lack of rebounding stats really hurt Pettits efficiency, I dont know how secure he was with the ball but Im pretty sure he was an imposing offensive rebounder.

Compared to Dirk, what do you make of the fact that Dirks teams have won atleast 60% of their games throughout his prime while Pettit has been on 4 sub .500 teams in a brief 11 year career.

Hellcrooner
08-08-2011, 05:16 PM
The lack of rebounding stats really hurt Pettits efficiency, I dont know how secure he was with the ball but Im pretty sure he was an imposing offensive rebounder.

Compared to Dirk, what do you make of the fact that Dirks teams have won atleast 60% of their games throughout his prime while Pettit has been on 4 sub .500 teams in a brief 11 year career.

that Cuban has wasted a lot of money into having a great roster for the entire span Dirk has been there?

Chronz
08-08-2011, 07:00 PM
that Cuban has wasted a lot of money into having a great roster for the entire span Dirk has been there?
Its true that the Mavs paid the most in terms of salary to win this years title but the Mavs efficiency without Dirk on the court was pathetic, moreso than any other contender without their star. Would you say Dirk had better teammates than Bron or Kobe this year? You could probably make the argument but clearly theres more to it than just how much you spend considering how little Miami spent in comparison to the Lakers. Cuban spending large sums of money on the likes of Bradley/Raef/Walker/Diop/Dampier isnt really doing much for me, and if you took away their salaries from those teams the payroll might fall down the rankings. Also Dirk was tying up alot of their cap space so that in itself hinders their flexibility, its not like Dirk was making the peanuts they did in the 50's.

Also Im sensing a trend, when winning favors Dirk you want to ignore it, when the stats favor Dirk you want to ignore those. Im not seeing an objective argument against him from you.

tredigs
08-08-2011, 08:33 PM
Its true that the Mavs paid the most in terms of salary to win this years title but the Mavs efficiency without Dirk on the court was pathetic, moreso than any other contender without their star. Would you say Dirk had better teammates than Bron or Kobe this year? You could probably make the argument but clearly theres more to it than just how much you spend considering how little Miami spent in comparison to the Lakers. Cuban spending large sums of money on the likes of Bradley/Raef/Walker/Diop/Dampier isnt really doing much for me, and if you took away their salaries from those teams the payroll might fall down the rankings. Also Dirk was tying up alot of their cap space so that in itself hinders their flexibility, its not like Dirk was making the peanuts they did in the 50's.

Also Im sensing a trend, when winning favors Dirk you want to ignore it, when the stats favor Dirk you want to ignore those. Im not seeing an objective argument against him from you.

Cuban certainly spent enough money (smart money for the most part, too) to give Dirk and the Mavs a highly competitive roster year after year. In the modern league, there's more middling and lower tier teams to beat up on in order to get a winning record if you play on a team as consistently stacked as Dirk (and Duncan) has.

Pettit played in a league where virtually every team had a future HOF, and some had multiple. For what it's worth, there were points where he had a losing record and still finished tied for first in the conference (with 3 teams). There were few enough teams that their stacked nature drew more parity than today's NBA (if you're lucky enough to have one of the best owners in sports).

Dirk's importance to his team can't be overlooked - it's gigantic, but it still isn't as great as Pettit, even in his "losing" seasons (one of which, for example, when they went 34-38 and still had a chance at the playoffs - Pettit absolutely anchored his boys - putting up 30/17/2.5 in the postseason... PER of 28.1. WS/48 .224 - to win back to back 1 game playoff tiebreakers, sweep the conference series, and then take Russell/Cousy's Celtics to 7 games in the Finals before finally losing).

naps
08-08-2011, 09:33 PM
Damn, I just checked Isiah's voters. Plenty of doubtful names there with new accounts (dupes?).

bootsy
08-08-2011, 09:36 PM
Glad Isiah Thomas is taking over.

DR_1
08-08-2011, 10:05 PM
I voted Isiah. It was tough picking him over Dirk and Baylor, but the way he led that Pistons team was incredible (not tomention his playmaking abilities).

Bruno
08-08-2011, 10:22 PM
Ended up going Dirk, although I wanted to take Thomas just so James didn't land so high. :shrug: I'm above the politics :guns:

Sofnr
08-08-2011, 10:31 PM
I wanted to vote Pettit but since he has no shot at this point I went with Thomas who would have been my second choice.

ManRam
08-08-2011, 10:37 PM
God Isiah is so overrated.

Did not expect to see him winning this poll.

Hellcrooner
08-08-2011, 10:59 PM
God Isiah is so overrated.

Did not expect to see him winning this poll.

on the contrary he is underated, he should have been gone long ago, and before, chuck, karl and stock of course, he actually managed to do the trick TWICE , against larry, magic and michael ( that happen to be really high on this list, arnt they?)

Stuckey#3
08-08-2011, 11:32 PM
This has turned into a popularity contest. Should be titled "PSD's All Time All Star Game Vote"

Gators123
08-08-2011, 11:33 PM
God Isiah is so overrated.

Did not expect to see him winning this poll.

Not really. Hes actually pretty underrated.

ManRam
08-08-2011, 11:42 PM
I disagree. Isiah isn't in my top 25-30.

I'll explain why tomorrow...too tired now.

I have always felt he's way overrated.

Stuckey#3
08-08-2011, 11:52 PM
Not really. Hes actually pretty underrated.

ZEKE! I agree he is underrated. This is one of the few point guards who successfully lead his team to a championship... twice. Top 3 player from the early 80's-1990. Magic, Bird, Isiah.

Chronz
08-09-2011, 12:20 AM
on the contrary he is underated, he should have been gone long ago, and before, chuck, karl and stock of course, he actually managed to do the trick TWICE , against larry, magic and michael ( that happen to be really high on this list, arnt they?)

What happened to the roster support argument, last I checked the Pistons won on the strength of their interior defense. Why does Zeke get a free pass? Or do you truly believe the Pistons were so great on the glass and defensively because lil ol Zeke did all that?

Chronz
08-09-2011, 12:22 AM
ZEKE! I agree he is underrated. This is one of the few point guards who successfully lead his team to a championship... twice. Top 3 player from the early 80's-1990. Magic, Bird, Isiah.

LOL youve just proven how overrated his supporters view him.

Hellcrooner
08-09-2011, 12:32 AM
What happened to the roster support argument, last I checked the Pistons won on the strength of their interior defense. Why does Zeke get a free pass? Or do you truly believe the Pistons were so great on the glass and defensively because lil ol Zeke did all that?

ok how many of the Pistons players in the 88 and 89 rosters are making the hof? how many allstars between all of them?


then How many Hof and allstars had the lakers and Celtics that they defeated?

Was pistons a GREAT team? of course.

But it wasnt BETTER than the ones lakers and celtics had.
Yet they managed to defeat them ( and jordan bulls too, including the year before their first ring, where all the pieces were already tehre and phil was already there).

So he LEAD his team to upset some of the best teams ever.


I think thomas is getting underated because

1 he is a dick and no one likes him as a person.

2 he has been one of the most disastrous gms ever, in NY

3 his sexual scandal affair has put a big cross on his name.

Chronz
08-09-2011, 01:08 AM
ok how many of the Pistons players in the 88 and 89 rosters are making the hof? how many allstars between all of them?
then How many Hof and allstars had the lakers and Celtics that they defeated?

Was pistons a GREAT team? of course.

But it wasnt BETTER than the ones lakers and celtics had.
Yet they managed to defeat them ( and jordan bulls too, including the year before their first ring, where all the pieces were already tehre and phil was already there).

So he LEAD his team to upset some of the best teams ever.


I think thomas is getting underated because

1 he is a dick and no one likes him as a person.

2 he has been one of the most disastrous gms ever, in NY

3 his sexual scandal affair has put a big cross on his name.


When people tried that for Dirk you said he didnt have any other star besides him but he did have ALOT of great role players or something along those lines.

Similar situation, I dont have to count the # of stars on the team when his team is winning on the strength of something he doesnt provide.

Also if you really wanted to know here are what the #'s say

Bulls: The year you spoke of they finished 9th in SRS, they had exactly 1 player who produced at an All-Star level. MJ

Lakers: The year they beat the Lakers in the Finals they finished 4th in SRS and had exactly 1 player who produced at an All-Star level. Magic

Celtics: They beat the Celtics when they were old or injured, in short WHO CARES. You can say those guys were at the top of their games but that would be as big of a lie as JB saying the Bulls beat the Pistons when they were still at their peak.

Hellcrooner
08-09-2011, 01:11 AM
When people tried that for Dirk you said he didnt have any other star besides him but he did have ALOT of great role players or something along those lines.

Similar situation, I dont have to count the # of stars on the team when his team is winning on the strength of something he doesnt provide.

Also if you really wanted to know here are what the #'s say

Bulls: The year you spoke of they finished 9th in SRS, they had exactly 1 player who produced at an All-Star level. MJ

Lakers: The year they beat the Lakers in the Finals they finished 4th in SRS and had exactly 1 player who produced at an All-Star level. Magic

Celtics: They beat the Celtics when they were old or injured, in short WHO CARES. You can say those guys were at the top of their games but that would be as big of a lie as JB saying the Bulls beat the Pistons when they were still at their peak.

`when did isiaihs pistons get beat by the 8th seed?


how many times where they eliminated with hca?

Chronz
08-09-2011, 01:13 AM
`when did isiaihs pistons get beat by the 8th seed?


how many times where they eliminated with hca?

Isiah was never good enough to lead a meh team to a first seed thats why. He was too busy not having MVP seasons

PatsSoxKnicks
08-09-2011, 02:34 AM
What happened to the roster support argument, last I checked the Pistons won on the strength of their interior defense. Why does Zeke get a free pass? Or do you truly believe the Pistons were so great on the glass and defensively because lil ol Zeke did all that?

I said this exact same thing earlier in this thread. Don't understand why Isiah is getting credit for his team having excellent interior defense.

Honestly, I don't really see how Isiah is any different then someone like Tony Parker. Both guys were fortunate enough to play on teams that had great interior defense and both guys won a Finals MVP. Neither deserve to be anywhere close to being this high.

LakersIn5
08-09-2011, 10:57 AM
how is isiah thomas a better player than lebron james?? yes isiah has a ring but that doesnt define the more talented player.

Gators123
08-09-2011, 12:01 PM
how is isiah thomas a better player than lebron james?? yes isiah has rings but that doesnt define the more talented player.

fixed.

JordansBulls
08-09-2011, 12:52 PM
how is isiah thomas a better player than lebron james?? yes isiah has a ring but that doesnt define the more talented player.

I don't think he is, but one thing is true is that Isiah never had anyone as good as Wade and still managed to win back to back titles and only lost 1 series in his career with HCA.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-09-2011, 01:11 PM
Posted this somewhere else in regards to Tony Parker vs. Isiah (so basically unless you're close to voting for Parker any time soon, Isiah shouldn't be anywhere near here)

I did say better playoff version of Parker but look at their regular season #'s, they're remarkably similar- almost identical PERs, Parker has a 3 point edge in TS%, Parker has a 5 point edge in eFG%, almost identical TRB%, Isiah has a 6 point advantage in Ast% (which isn't that much), obviously Isiah was better at stealing the ball, Parker has a lower TOV%, and again, almost identical Usg% (Parker's is 25.4, Thomas' is 25.3), Parker's ORtg is 2 points higher, and his DRtg is 3 points higher (although thats probably due more to Duncan), Parker's got more Win Shares in his career and a higher WS/48. Isiah has played 13 seasons in the NBA, Parker has played 10.

The main difference is in the playoffs though where Isiah mostly maintains his regular season #'s but gets better in a few areas, whereas Parker's #'s drop. Parker has won 3 ships and was a main part of each while Isiah won 2 ships, each has a Finals MVP.

I'm sure you'll point to the All-Star games but I think its reasonable to assume that Isiah played in an era where there were a lot less great PGs whereas Parker is competing with CP3, Deron, Nash, Kidd, etc. All have been in the Western Conference for the majority of his career. And all of those guys are likely HOFers. Who were the great PGs in the Eastern Conference at the time Isiah played? Payton, Stockton and Magic were all there but each was in the Western Conference. The best PGs in the East in that time were Mo Cheeks and Mark Jackson, both are good PGs but neither are much competition for Isiah, nor are either of them HOFers.

The bad boy Pistons won mainly on interior defense, something Isiah had nothing to do with. Similarly Parker's Spurs won mainly on interior defense (mainly due to Duncan), and again, something that Parker had nothing to do with. Although, I'll give you Isiah was a better defender but IMO PG defense isn't that important, most of them don't even play any defense.

The main difference as I said earlier was that Isiah is better in the playoffs, which is why I said he was a better playoff version of Parker but other then that, there are many similarities including regular season #'s (where Isiah's ORtg and WS/48 is barely above average), except one guy played in the EC with no PG competition and the other played in a conference with lots of PG competition.

The only reason people rate Isiah so highly is because his Pistons teams were much like the 03-04 Pistons where there were no real stars on the team. In that sense, Isiah had a very similar role to Billups on the 03-04 Pistons team but no one ever mentions Billups as one of the all-time greats. Billups obviously had the Wallaces playing outstanding interior defense. The same is true for Isiah's Pistons' who had Bill Lambier, Dennis Rodman, James Edwards, John Salley as their big men.

Heck, look at Isiah's per game averages in those 2 years- he didn't even average 20 ppg in either of his championship years. Nor did he average 20 ppg in his first championship playoff run and in the 2nd one, he was barely over 20 ppg. No instead, if you look at the Pistons teams that won the championship, they were very balanced from a scoring perspective, again very similar to the 03-04 Pistons.

There is no way this guy deserves to be this high.

JordansBulls
08-09-2011, 01:34 PM
I'm sure you'll point to the All-Star games but I think its reasonable to assume that Isiah played in an era where there were a lot less great PGs whereas Parker is competing with CP3, Deron, Nash, Kidd, etc. .

That doesn't matter as the allstar game selects two guards not a PG and SG.

http://www.allstarnba.es/ballot/1991.htm

PatsSoxKnicks
08-09-2011, 01:55 PM
That doesn't matter as the allstar game selects two guards not a PG and SG.

http://www.allstarnba.es/ballot/1991.htm

Ok, but I think my point would still stand. Other then MJ, how many great 2 guards were playing in Isiah's time? There's still been many more great guards playing in Parker's time.

In any case, I don't want this to seem like I'm saying Parker and Isiah are comparable because I'm not. Isiah is better because he's better in the playoffs but the fact that they aren't that different shows that Isiah deserves to be nowhere near #21.

The guy has never even won an MVP, or even been top 3 in MVP voting. Why should he go anywhere close to this high?

The other thing that seems to be helping Isiah is that the Pistons were a deep team that had quite a few quality bigs that they could throw at you, so the bigs tended to split time more while Dumars and Isiah played most of the minutes at guard. Therefore, they tend to get most of the credit.

pedrofan45
08-09-2011, 01:58 PM
honestly i think these all time lists are kinda stupid.. i mean are we talking about who is the best players of all time or who has had best careers of all time?? cause there is a difference.. and Lebron James and KG deserve to be higher... I really do think KG was better than Tim Duncan when he was in Minnesota.. Tim just got put into a better situation and had a better career.... and Isiah Thomas over Lebron James??? laughable

JordansBulls
08-09-2011, 03:01 PM
Going to be out of town for a week and half or so. I'll have iphone access only. Will continue project once I return unless a mod or another good poster wants to continue it. Also need to know how many fake accounts were created to vote for Isiah.

I've been updating this list as we go.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088

Bruno
08-09-2011, 03:15 PM
honestly i think these all time lists are kinda stupid.. i mean are we talking about who is the best players of all time or who has had best careers of all time?? cause there is a difference.. and Lebron James and KG deserve to be higher... I really do think KG was better than Tim Duncan when he was in Minnesota.. Tim just got put into a better situation and had a better career.... and Isiah Thomas over Lebron James??? laughable

Overall career. Factoring in accolades, team success, statistical dominance, peak/prime statistical dominance, longevity, ect.

Hellcrooner
08-09-2011, 03:19 PM
Ok, but I think my point would still stand. Other then MJ, how many great 2 guards were playing in Isiah's time? There's still been many more great guards playing in Parker's time.

In any case, I don't want this to seem like I'm saying Parker and Isiah are comparable because I'm not. Isiah is better because he's better in the playoffs but the fact that they aren't that different shows that Isiah deserves to be nowhere near #21.

The guy has never even won an MVP, or even been top 3 in MVP voting. Why should he go anywhere close to this high?

The other thing that seems to be helping Isiah is that the Pistons were a deep team that had quite a few quality bigs that they could throw at you, so the bigs tended to split time more while Dumars and Isiah played most of the minutes at guard. Therefore, they tend to get most of the credit.

how the hell would he get any top 3 mvp votes if he lived in the same era that bird, magic and jordan that hapen to be 3 of the top 5 players ever?

that is like saying, you have 5 supermodels in a room and that the one that never gets the price is uglier than this average girl that won the price once because there were only average girls in the room

Khalifa21
08-09-2011, 03:54 PM
Going to be out of town for a week and half or so. I'll have iphone access only. Will continue project once I return unless a mod or another good poster wants to continue it. Also need to know how many fake accounts were created to vote for Isiah.

I've been updating this list as we go.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088

I just counted 9 votes for Isiah by members who all joined on 08/08/11 and have zero posts...

:eyebrow:

Swashcuff
08-09-2011, 07:08 PM
My first time visiting this thread. I am a bit surprised to see Isiah go ahead of LeBron, Dirk and Petitt. Saw Khalifa21 say however that there has been quite a few dupes who voted for Isiah however. A real shame if you ask me.

SteBO
08-09-2011, 08:10 PM
My first time visiting this thread. I am a bit surprised to see Isiah go ahead of LeBron, Dirk and Petitt. Saw Khalifa21 say however that there has been quite a few dupes who voted for Isiah however. A real shame if you ask me.
There's a couple but not enough to alter the voting process. On topic though, and I have yet to chime in on these threads, while I love Isiah I think he may be getting just a tad overrated here. His team was called the Detroit "Bad Boy" Pistons for a reason. Their defensive schemes. He's getting more credit than he deserves just because he was on a great team.

SteBO
08-09-2011, 08:12 PM
Poll's closed, so I'm gonna go ahead and lock this up. I'll put up the next thread.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-09-2011, 08:22 PM
how the hell would he get any top 3 mvp votes if he lived in the same era that bird, magic and jordan that hapen to be 3 of the top 5 players ever?

that is like saying, you have 5 supermodels in a room and that the one that never gets the price is uglier than this average girl that won the price once because there were only average girls in the room

Ok but that still doesn't explain why he's 64th in MVP Award Shares, behind guys like Kevin Durant, Grant Hill, Billups, etc.

Here's the definition of Award Shares if you're curious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Award_share

So basically, he rarely got enough points in the MVP race (2nd place, 3rd place, 7th place whatever) to be ranked this high.

And you still missed my main point. Isiah was a good player but the Pistons won mainly due to interior defense, something Isiah had nothing to do with.

SteBO
08-09-2011, 08:38 PM
I've counted 10 dupes that voted for Isiah. LBJ is gonna win this poll by default. Next thread is open.