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JordansBulls
08-05-2011, 05:04 PM
RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.
NO POSTING in your FORUM, VOTE for this GUY. We had problems last time with it and NO POSTING in someone Else's Forum to VOTE for a certain player.


Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.


Voting for #20 has concluded and PSD's Official #20 NBA Player of all time is....

George Mikan


Top 3 Voters


George Mikan = 27 votes
Kevin Garnett = 22 votes
Lebron James = 20 votes


The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)
19. George Mikan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641172)

Voting will now begin for the #20 NBA Player All Time


NOTE: You can only nominate one player and that player had to be an allstar multiple times at least probably at least 3 times at a minimum. The player who has the most nomination votes will be added to the next poll. Anyone who nominates more than one player there nomination will be disregarded.

Knick Killer
08-05-2011, 05:29 PM
Garnett for #20.
And I nominate the best clutch shooter in nba history for the next pool: Reggie Miller!

NYKalltheway
08-05-2011, 05:30 PM
i wanna go Rick Barry here since Havlicek isn't getting any love

Cano4prez
08-05-2011, 05:55 PM
Garnett

Cano4prez
08-05-2011, 05:55 PM
Garnett for #20.
And I nominate the best clutch shooter in nba history for the next pool: Reggie Miller!

Not top 50

LAKERMANIA
08-05-2011, 07:18 PM
I want to vote Pettit or Havlicek, but I know they're both going to lose, **** it, I vote for Pettit

GoPacers33
08-05-2011, 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knick Killer
Garnett for #20.
And I nominate the best clutch shooter in nba history for the next pool: Reggie Miller!
Not top 50


Reggie is in the top 50 but not top 30

My vote goes to the king

ManRam
08-05-2011, 07:52 PM
KG then LeBron are my next two.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
08-05-2011, 07:53 PM
Havlicek isn't getting any love at all.

Cavs_Fan24
08-05-2011, 07:55 PM
Garnett for #20.
And I nominate the best clutch shooter in nba history for the next pool: Reggie Miller!

I second that nomination. Also, Garnett should be the pick here. Hopefully too many people aren't homers and just pick LeBron.

No knock against lbj, he'll be in the top 10 for sure on just pure talent and skill when it's all said. Now isn't that time though. As of right now KG deserves it more then LeBron does.

LAKERMANIA
08-05-2011, 07:59 PM
Havlicek isn't getting any love at all.

Agreed

Lebron over Havlicek? :facepalm:

NBAfan4life
08-05-2011, 08:10 PM
Garnett followed by Pettit.

Bruno
08-05-2011, 09:02 PM
Garnett followed by Pettit.

x2.

I've got KG here, followed by Pettit.

At that point I'll have Dirk-Pippen-LBJ-Isiah-Wade-Baylor in the next grouping. Don't know what order yet.

Hellcrooner
08-05-2011, 10:16 PM
i would have voted, thomas , pettit or havliceck but will vote kg to fit my agenda.

btw i nominae again nate thurmond

Hellcrooner
08-05-2011, 10:18 PM
btw i dont know how the hell is thomas THIS low.

i mean.

He lead the team that beat BIRD.
He lead the team that beat Magic.
and he lead the team that beat SEVERAL times the supposed Goat and kept frustrating him until his team was a bunch of assylum wheelchair elderys.

LakersIn5
08-05-2011, 10:23 PM
lebron is the most talented player in the poll

Pietro1023
08-05-2011, 10:47 PM
Nooo wayyyyy KG or Lebron should be crackin this list yet......

DR_1
08-05-2011, 11:01 PM
Dirk then KG

LeBron is not even in the discussion. Both these guys have rings. You have to be picky when you're talking about who's the best ever.

tredigs
08-05-2011, 11:01 PM
Nooo wayyyyy KG or Lebron should be crackin this list yet......

You may have a point on Lebron given the longevity and lack of a ring, but considering his help in most of his years and the fact that Mikan just cracked the list - anybody that dominant is easily worthy.

Garnett? That's one of the most dominant PF's in league history - on par with Duncan in many ways, he just happened to grow up in a struggling Minnesota franchise with little help - while Duncan came in with a top/veteran big and arguably the best coach/organization out there. He's an MVP, Finals MVP (should be multiple), defensive juggernaut and absolute transcendent leader as proved by the turnaround of Boston upon his arrival (which was NO doubt his team, and mostly his doing).

He's a legend, and absolutely worthy of top 20-25 consideration. I can't see how you'd argue otherwise?... But I'm all ears.

GhostfaceDrilla
08-06-2011, 01:21 AM
Dirk Nowitzki. Arguably the most clutch player ever behind Jordan.

Hellcrooner
08-06-2011, 01:37 AM
Dirk Nowitzki. Arguably the most clutch player ever behind Jordan.

:facepalm:

tredigs
08-06-2011, 02:39 AM
:facepalm:

Listen dude, hate on Dirk all you want - but he's an insanely clutch player and a top 25 player in NBA history - you're only embarrassing yourself by the "facepalm" of a legend of his stature.

Back up your facepalm and engage a debate. While he's obviously overstepping Dirk's legacy a bit, I guarantee you'd be surprised how quickly you'd be on your heels in a "Dirk is ridiculously clutch" debate.

THE GIPPER
08-06-2011, 03:02 AM
Lebron again for me

NYKalltheway
08-06-2011, 03:04 AM
pathetic how these newer guys get more recognition that people like Thomas, Barry, Petit, Havlicek, Baylor(debatable), Drexler, Nique, Cousy, Frazier, Ewing and Payton (debatable)

Lebron shouldn't sniff ahead of these guys, while Garnett doesn't have a case over most of them.

THE GIPPER
08-06-2011, 03:11 AM
pathetic how these newer guys get more recognition that people like Thomas, Barry, Petit, Havlicek, Baylor(debatable), Drexler, Nique, Cousy, Frazier, Ewing and Payton (debatable)

Lebron shouldn't sniff ahead of these guys, while Garnett doesn't have a case over most of them.

Lebron is better than all those guys

LAKERMANIA
08-06-2011, 03:28 AM
lebron is better than all those guys

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot

tredigs
08-06-2011, 04:35 AM
Lebron is better than all those guys

Care to make that argument?

RevisIsland
08-06-2011, 04:52 AM
I'm gonna keep voting for Scottie until he gets picked, he deserves recognition.

naps
08-06-2011, 04:53 AM
Dirk Nowitzki. Arguably the most clutch player ever behind Jordan.

Oh my lawd :facepalm:

RevisIsland
08-06-2011, 04:55 AM
And btw, how are people voting for 8 years of LeBron over full careers of guys like Scottie, Isiah, Havlicek etc... LeBron may get there one day, in fact he probably will, but you can't rank him that high this quickly. If you were building a franchise and someone told you "you can have 8 years of LeBron, or 18 of Scottie Pippen, Isiah Thomas, or John Havlicek", you take the latter in a second. If you don't, well idk what to say to you.

MelkyNYY
08-06-2011, 05:05 AM
Lebron >>>> Garnett

MTar786
08-06-2011, 05:48 AM
kg is over due

followed by

dirk
pettit
baylor
kidd
thomas
lebron
iverson
payton
nash
ewing

MTar786
08-06-2011, 05:50 AM
Lebron >>>> Garnett

not career wise.. but he will eventually make it to top 12 all time for sure

NYKalltheway
08-06-2011, 07:35 AM
people don't even have Havlicek and Barry in their top 30 *lolwut?*

LakersIn5
08-06-2011, 07:54 AM
Lebron is the best available

Geargo Wallace
08-06-2011, 09:12 AM
KG>Dirk. I wonder how many titles KG could have brought to Dallas if he were in Dirk's place...

NBAfan4life
08-06-2011, 09:37 AM
KG>Dirk. I wonder how many titles KG could have brought to Dallas if he were in Dirk's place...

No ****. Could you imagine if Mark Cuban had a player like Garnett to build around. Dirk is a special player, but Garnett in Minnesota years playing for a owner as hungry as Cuban would of been epic.

todu82
08-06-2011, 10:00 AM
Lebron James

sjoerdje
08-06-2011, 10:54 AM
all the people talking about the oldies,

john havliceks best season is worse than lebrons worst season
and Rick Barrys best years were in the ABA and that league was not as strong as the NBA. look at the stats of everyone making te jump from ABA to NBA.

Hellcrooner
08-06-2011, 11:26 AM
all the people talking about the oldies,

john havliceks best season is worse than lebrons worst season
and Rick Barrys best years were in the ABA and that league was not as strong as the NBA. look at the stats of everyone making te jump from ABA to NBA.

except he lead teh warriors to a ring in the nba :rolleyes:

Hellcrooner
08-06-2011, 11:28 AM
listen dude, hate on dirk all you want - but he's an insanely clutch player and a top 25 player in nba history - you're only embarrassing yourself by the "facepalm" of a legend of his stature.

Back up your facepalm and engage a debate. While he's obviously overstepping dirk's legacy a bit, i guarantee you'd be surprised how quickly you'd be on your heels in a "dirk is ridiculously clutch" debate.

g.o.l.d.e.n s.t.a.t.e.w.a.r.r.i.o.r.s

Chronz
08-06-2011, 12:26 PM
except he lead teh warriors to a ring in the nba :rolleyes:

Yea but what do you make of his competition

Hellcrooner
08-06-2011, 12:28 PM
Yea but what do you make of his competition

kareem abdul jabbar?
moses malone?
HEALTHY bill walton?
PRIME Dr J?
Nate archibald?
Prime Elvin Hayes?
Dave cowens?
Prime george gervin?
Aartis gilmore?
David thompson?
Dan Issell?
Bernard king?
Earl monroe?
walt frazier?
Fred brown?



nah he had no competition :rolleyes:

tredigs
08-06-2011, 12:46 PM
g.o.l.d.e.n s.t.a.t.e.w.a.r.r.i.o.r.s

hahah... and? I was there, it was fun.

You really think that tarnishes the guys legacy? That team had him and the Mavs number all year, nothing changed in the post-season.

That Mavs team didn't have solid team D, and they tried to run with GS. Fact of the matter is that that GS team was one of the best run 'n gun offenses the leagues seen. Shame should be on Avery Johnson more than Dirk for that one.

Throughout the totality of his career - not just one isolated series - Dirk has consistently dominated both in the clutch and in the post-season. 2.0.1.1.P.L.A.Y.O.F.F.S.

Hellcrooner
08-06-2011, 12:52 PM
hahah... and? I was there, it was fun.

You really think that tarnishes the guys legacy? That team had him and the Mavs number all year, nothing changed in the post-season.

That Mavs team didn't have solid team D, and they tried to run with GS. Fact of the matter is that that GS team was one of the best run 'n gun offenses the leagues seen. Shame should be on Avery Johnson more than Dirk for that one.

Throughout the totality of his career - not just one isolated series - Dirk has consistently dominated both in the clutch and in the post-season. 2.0.1.1.P.L.A.Y.O.F.F.S.
he has had a top 3 team talent wise his whole ****ing career 1 finals 1 ring and many first and second round chokes.

LAKERMANIA
08-06-2011, 01:01 PM
I can't believe Lebron is getting this many votes... All with 0 facts behind it

tredigs
08-06-2011, 01:03 PM
he has had a top 3 team talent wise his whole ****ing career 1 finals 1 ring and many first and second round chokes.

By him, or his teammates 'Crooner?? I would say that this is one of the first seasons where his cast finally stepped up as a whole to match Dirk's production level and help him win a ring (obviously Dirk being the only truly dominant force - and in a fashion that only the likes of Hakeem and Rick Barry can claim more of a "1 man machine" role en route to a title).

Just take a look at this guys CAREER playoff numbers (which in any single season playoff run would be downright elite-superstar status).




Season Age Tm Lg G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST
NBA 124 5127 1053 2272 139 362 969 1086 197 1289 322 136 118 286 353 3214 .463 .384 .892 41.3 25.9 10.4 2.6







Season Age Tm Lg G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48

NBA 124 5127 24.7 .584 .494 4.3 24.8 14.4 11.8 1.4 1.8 9.4 27.2 119 107 17.0 5.0 22.1 0.207

26/10/3 with a 58% TS%, PER of 24.7, Offensive Rating of 119 and WS/48 of .207. CAREER playoffs numbers? That's pure domination, dude.

He's not even my choice here - Pettit is, followed by KG > Dirk, with consideration to Rick Barry and Elgin Baylor at either slot, but to write him off in the way you do is laughable.

tredigs
08-06-2011, 01:13 PM
I can't believe Lebron is getting this many votes... All with 0 facts behind it

How many players left are multiple MVP winners though? Or led the league in WinShares and PER for 3+ consecutive seasons? Or (adjusted for pace), have as dominant playoff numbers as he's had? Essentially the only knock on him is that he hasn't won a ring (exactly ZERO players with his teammates - you could argue in league history - but I'll leave it to today's NBA, would win with the cast he had in Cleveland), and that he struggled in the Finals' - which is fair - but he absolutely has his argument in the ~22-26 range. When he finishes, there's almost no chance he isn't top 15, and he has a very good opportunity for the top 5.

Hellcrooner
08-06-2011, 01:15 PM
^i really think the catch here, is that active players shouldnt be discussed in all time threads.
lebrons book is not finished yet.
he can raise his stock to top 3 if he wins multiple rings or he can get his *** out of the top 30 if he constantly underperforms in finals or earlier in playoffs with the heat and deos not win 1 at least.

Chronz
08-06-2011, 01:18 PM
kareem abdul jabbar?
moses malone?
HEALTHY bill walton?
PRIME Dr J?
Nate archibald?
Prime Elvin Hayes?
Dave cowens?
Prime george gervin?
Aartis gilmore?
David thompson?
Dan Issell?
Bernard king?
Earl monroe?
walt frazier?
Fred brown?



nah he had no competition :rolleyes:

No need for the sarcasm I am truly curious, do you think his comp was harder. Did he even play those guys in his title run? More importantly I didn't ask for a list of names but a list of top teams and what made them so great.

I recall there was some controversy the year he won but I can't recall it now. Allow me to hit the books for this one.

tredigs
08-06-2011, 01:20 PM
^i really think the catch here, is that active players shouldnt be discussed in all time threads.
lebrons book is not finished yet.
he can raise his stock to top 3 if he wins multiple rings or he can get his *** out of the top 30 if he constantly underperforms in finals or earlier in playoffs with the heat and deos not win 1 at least.

I guess that's fair, but I think the better way to look at it is "if they retired today" (or if the NBA never returns...). We're supposed to make a top 50 list and omit Kobe/Duncan/Dirk/Lebron, etc? Makes no sense. If they retired today, the'd be in there, so the idea is to rate them as where they stand at this point.

NBAfan4life
08-06-2011, 01:21 PM
g.o.l.d.e.n s.t.a.t.e.w.a.r.r.i.o.r.s

At least Dirk performed well. How did Gasol play this year in the playoffs? Is his legacy forever tarnished?

The answer is NO

Chronz
08-06-2011, 01:23 PM
^i really think the catch here, is that active players shouldnt be discussed in all time threads.
lebrons book is not finished yet.
he can raise his stock to top 3 if he wins multiple rings or he can get his *** out of the top 30 if he constantly underperforms in finals or earlier in playoffs with the heat and deos not win 1 at least.

I was always under the impression that you can never take away from a players greatness. What he did to deserve a high placement will always exist, you can only move up the ladder imo.

tredigs
08-06-2011, 01:27 PM
At least Dirk performed well. How did Gasol play this year in the playoffs? Is his legacy forever tarnished?

The answer is NO

Well, in fairness to 'Crooner, Dirk got absolutely dismantled in that playoffs (for his standards). He was visibly frustrated/shaken to a point I'd never seen, and just couldn't do anything against Captain Jack or the team D as a whole. On defense - against that high octane offense - he was useless outside of rebounds.

Hellcrooner
08-06-2011, 01:28 PM
No need for the sarcasm I am truly curious, do you think his comp was harder. Did he even play those guys in his title run? More importantly I didn't ask for a list of names but a list of top teams and what made them so great.

I recall there was some controversy the year he won but I can't recall it now. Allow me to hit the books for this one.

well to star with he had to deal with a higher concentration of the talent pool due to the leaghe having less teams.
then factor that only 8 teams made the playoffs back then.

add that his company was scarce ( a rookie wilkes and bascially nothing but a bunch of aging has beens)
they beat a very strong and much better roster bullstes in teh finals with hayes, unseld , chenier and truck robinson wich btw had won 60 games in regular season vs warriors 48
beat a bulls that had bob love, jerry sloan, nate thurmond and norm van lier.
beat the sonics tha had fred brown and spencer haywood, and a very good roster that would get them a title soon.

Hellcrooner
08-06-2011, 01:32 PM
At least Dirk performed well. How did Gasol play this year in the playoffs? Is his legacy forever tarnished?

The answer is NO

YES paus legacy has been tarnished by this series.

withouth this series, and adding one or two more rings he could have seriously competed for some 35-50 in history place , maybe 30 to 35 with one finals mvp.


after this series he will probably never crack the top 50.

Unless some weird scenario happen

Scenario 1, Kobe bryant AND bynum get season ending injuries, Lakers win the title ( not happening)
Scenario 2, KObe is approacehd by some alien that reveals him that he needs to stop hogging, decides that he is old and that pau be the 1st option , lakers win a title ( not happening, i dont think even meeting jesus woudl make kobe stop hogging or recognise aging)

Scenario 3 JImmy freddo buss, trades Pau to Orlando for dwight, or to hawks for Smith or some other ******** trade and pau leads new team to a title ( highly doubtfull)

Raps08-09 Champ
08-06-2011, 01:34 PM
I can't believe Lebron is getting this many votes... All with 0 facts behind it

Multiple MVP and impacts the game more than the players remaining.

Only knock on him is longevity and titles. And looking at it. His first 8 years is better than most players top 8 seasons.

THE MTL
08-06-2011, 01:44 PM
Ppl have just slept on Isiah Thomas!!!!! I'm just going to vote for Lebron James cause he is the BEST PLAYER on board.

DR_1
08-06-2011, 02:46 PM
Multiple MVP and impacts the game more than the players remaining.

Only knock on him is longevity and titles. And looking at it. His first 8 years is better than most players top 8 seasons.

Ya but good players find a way to win. What's so great about him if he can't win? It's the ultimate goal in sports.

Gators123
08-06-2011, 02:48 PM
Zeke

Lakersfan2483
08-06-2011, 02:53 PM
Once again I am voting for Kevin Garnett. The man has hall of fame stats, a title, an mvp, is a perennial all star and all nba player and one of the best defensive players in league history. The big ticket deserves to be voted in the top 20.

Lakersfan2483
08-06-2011, 02:54 PM
I nominate Reggie Miller and James Worthy to the list of top 50 players.

nimzboy
08-06-2011, 03:22 PM
It was between isiah thomas and kg, i went thomas.
I am a lebron fan but I dont think he is in the top 20 yet, maybe not even top 25, but a def top 30.

JordansBulls
08-06-2011, 03:45 PM
I can't believe Lebron is getting this many votes... All with 0 facts behind it

I'm not a big Lebron supporter, but you can definitely make a case for him at this point. I still may have KG and Dirk as well as Pettit ahead of him, but after that I don't see anyone else unless you consider Rick Barry ahead of him.

Hellcrooner
08-06-2011, 03:59 PM
I'm not a big Lebron supporter, but you can definitely make a case for him at this point. I still may have KG and Dirk as well as Pettit ahead of him, but after that I don't see anyone else unless you consider Rick Barry ahead of him.

ill have many of the players in the least, before i vote lebron ( including dirk)
Basically the ones that indeed managed to take their teams the whole way to a title as leaders or to multiple rings ( more than 3) as second options.

Lake_Show2416
08-06-2011, 04:08 PM
ill have many of the players in the least, before i vote lebron ( including dirk)
Basically the ones that indeed managed to take their teams the whole way to a title as leaders or to multiple rings ( more than 3) as second options.

seriously didn't he prove it this year, plus an MVP, dominance (try n guard his fade away in the post) longevity, his playoff stats & not to mention the title he won with no legit 2nd option, Id without a question rank that above half a career of good regular season stats as the agrument

Hellcrooner
08-06-2011, 04:14 PM
seriously didn't he prove it this year, plus an MVP, dominance (try n guard his fade away in the post) longevity, his playoff stats & not to mention the title he won with no legit 2nd option, Id without a question rank that above half a career of good regular season stats as the agrument
he had something better than a second option.
A team FILLED with great players , ( some of them woudl be second options somwhere else btw) filled with DEfense, and with one of the best floor generals ever in the game in Kidd.

THE GIPPER
08-06-2011, 04:30 PM
Care to make that argument?

Ok but i dont really want to campare like 10 guys so i'll just campare him to bob pettit since thats who you chose.


Bob Pettit was a 6'9 205lbs "forward/center" as they call him in basketball reference and I understand it was a completely different era but lebron is bigger than he is, and basically plays point guard. Also lebron has him in every statistical category except for regular season offensive, defensive and total WS which is a stat that hinges heavily on what team you play for. Lebron has him in playoff WS. Another thing, pettit only played 11 seasons and retired at age 32 so the fact that he is one of only two other players to scored atleast 20ppg every season means nothing to me (MJ and Alex Groza were the other two and Groza only played 2 seasons). And for a big man to shoot 43% from the field doesnt impress me much either.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=jamesle01&y1=2011&p2=pettibo01&y2=1965

Hellcrooner
08-06-2011, 04:35 PM
Ok but i dont really want to campare like 10 guys so i'll just campare him to bob pettit since thats who you chose.


Bob Pettit was a 6'9 205lbs "forward/center" as they call him in basketball reference and I understand it was a completely different era but lebron is bigger than he is, and basically plays point guard. Also lebron has him in every statistical category except for regular season offensive, defensive and total WS which is a stat that hinges heavily on what team you play for. Lebron has him in playoff WS. Another thing, pettit only played 11 seasons and retired at age 32 so the fact that he is one of only two other players to scored atleast 20ppg every season means nothing to me (MJ and Alex Groza were the other two and Groza only played 2 seasons). And for a big man to shoot 43% from the field doesnt impress me much either.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=jamesle01&y1=2011&p2=pettibo01&y2=1965
grozas history is actually very sad.
He would be in somwhere in this list if he didnt get banned for live.

THE GIPPER
08-06-2011, 04:42 PM
grozas history is actually very sad.
He would be in somwhere in this list if he didnt get banned for live.

Ya very strange actually. He averaged something like 23 a game in his second season so he could have been something special.

Hellcrooner
08-06-2011, 04:48 PM
Ya very strange actually. He averaged something like 23 a game in his second season so he could have been something special.

not only him, the indianapolis olympians too.

the team with beard, groza etc was basically the same roster that had been dominating and winning ncaa in previous years they were young, groza was also USAs mvp winning an olympic gold too.

Its arguable that they would have gotten quite a few rings, wich would have probably led to Indianapolis Olympians still existing.

THE GIPPER
08-06-2011, 04:52 PM
not only him, the indianapolis olympians too.

the team with beard, groza etc was basically the same roster that had been dominating and winning ncaa in previous years they were young, groza was also USAs mvp winning an olympic gold too.

Its arguable that they would have gotten quite a few rings, wich would have probably led to Indianapolis Olympians still existing.

I actually didnt know that. Crazy he was usa mvp at that age.

tredigs
08-06-2011, 04:57 PM
Ok but i dont really want to campare like 10 guys so i'll just campare him to bob pettit since thats who you chose.


Bob Pettit was a 6'9 205lbs "forward/center" as they call him in basketball reference and I understand it was a completely different era but lebron is bigger than he is, and basically plays point guard. Also lebron has him in every statistical category except for regular season offensive, defensive and total WS which is a stat that hinges heavily on what team you play for. Lebron has him in playoff WS. Another thing, pettit only played 11 seasons and retired at age 32 so the fact that he is one of only two other players to scored atleast 20ppg every season means nothing to me (MJ and Alex Groza were the other two and Groza only played 2 seasons). And for a big man to shoot 43% from the field doesnt impress me much either.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=jamesle01&y1=2011&p2=pettibo01&y2=1965

From the games I've watched and articles I've read, he was almost exclusively a PF in the NBA - center in college. And while he may have been 6'9" (like Ben Wallace), he was one of the greatest rebounders in league history. Not sure why they have him as f/c. Pettit was actually efficient for his day - he was top 10 in ts% in half of his seasons, and was a damn solid shooter.

It wasn't just that he averaged over 20ppg his entire career, he also averaged in the teen rebounds his entire career (except his final year - where he averaged 23/12/3). Not to mention being All-NBA 1st team his entire career alongside guys like Big O, Wilt, Russell and Jerry West (multiple MVP's/scoring titles mixed in). He was top 5 in PER and Win Shares virtually his entire career also.

And the kicker is that he and his boys were one of the few teams to ever take out Russell/Cousy's Celtics in the playoffs en route to a championship. Lebron simply can't touch that milestone at this point.

Pettit's career > Lebron's at this point. If Lebron had showed up in the Finals and the Heat won their ring this season, we'd be having a different / more debatable discussion. He did not.

THE GIPPER
08-06-2011, 04:59 PM
^ I have to go to work but ill respond later

tredigs
08-06-2011, 05:01 PM
^ I have to go to work but ill respond later

Sounds good.

THE GIPPER
08-07-2011, 02:45 AM
From the games I've watched and articles I've read, he was almost exclusively a PF in the NBA - center in college. And while he may have been 6'9" (like Ben Wallace), he was one of the greatest rebounders in league history. Not sure why they have him as f/c. Pettit was actually efficient for his day - he was top 10 in ts% in half of his seasons, and was a damn solid shooter.

It wasn't just that he averaged over 20ppg his entire career, he also averaged in the teen rebounds his entire career (except his final year - where he averaged 23/12/3). Not to mention being All-NBA 1st team his entire career alongside guys like Big O, Wilt, Russell and Jerry West (multiple MVP's/scoring titles mixed in). He was top 5 in PER and Win Shares virtually his entire career also.

And the kicker is that he and his boys were one of the few teams to ever take out Russell/Cousy's Celtics in the playoffs en route to a championship. Lebron simply can't touch that milestone at this point.

Pettit's career > Lebron's at this point. If Lebron had showed up in the Finals and the Heat won their ring this season, we'd be having a different / more debatable discussion. He did not.

The whole rebounding thing is very impressive but wasnt the pace much higher back then than it is now? I dont know for sure but I would assume it was making for more shots/rebounds. As for the bolded part I guess I have to agree with you in the sense that Lebrons career is simply too young at this point even though he's played 8 seasons already and pettit only played 11. As for the awards and accolades Lebron matches up equally imo. Youn mentioned he was top 5 in per and WS most of his career and lebron has been also. Both have two mvps. But the thing that stumps me is pettit beating russels celts and after lebrons finals proformance, i cant really say anything to back up lebron other than his career is not done yet.

LakersIn5
08-07-2011, 10:58 AM
The whole rebounding thing is very impressive but wasnt the pace much higher back then than it is now? I dont know for sure but I would assume it was making for more shots/rebounds. As for the bolded part I guess I have to agree with you in the sense that Lebrons career is simply too young at this point even though he's played 8 seasons already and pettit only played 11. As for the awards and accolades Lebron matches up equally imo. Youn mentioned he was top 5 in per and WS most of his career and lebron has been also. Both have two mvps. But the thing that stumps me is pettit beating russels celts and after lebrons finals proformance, i cant really say anything to back up lebron other than his career is not done yet.

you can say that willis reeds team will also lose to dirks mavs.

Hellcrooner
08-07-2011, 11:05 AM
you can say that willis reeds team will also lose to dirks mavs.

WITH WALT FRAZIER AND EARL MONROE ( HE SHOULD BE UP THERE FOR VOTING) :confused:

not a chance in hell.

AntiG
08-07-2011, 11:38 AM
Amazing how little respect Drexler gets. He's the 2nd or 3rd best SG of all time and led 3 teams to the finals, including one that never had anyone but him.

NBAfan4life
08-07-2011, 12:10 PM
Amazing how little respect Drexler gets. He's the 2nd or 3rd best SG of all time and led 3 teams to the finals, including one that never had anyone but him.

I can get behind him being 3rd or 4th. TBH he is only keeping 3rd best warm until dwade takes that place.

SaimuKala
08-07-2011, 12:33 PM
LeBron over Dirk? Are you kidding me?

tredigs
08-07-2011, 01:18 PM
The whole rebounding thing is very impressive but wasnt the pace much higher back then than it is now? I dont know for sure but I would assume it was making for more shots/rebounds. As for the bolded part I guess I have to agree with you in the sense that Lebrons career is simply too young at this point even though he's played 8 seasons already and pettit only played 11. As for the awards and accolades Lebron matches up equally imo. Youn mentioned he was top 5 in per and WS most of his career and lebron has been also. Both have two mvps. But the thing that stumps me is pettit beating russels celts and after lebrons finals proformance, i cant really say anything to back up lebron other than his career is not done yet.

Right, the pace was higher - but even adjusted for pace he'd have a 20+ (ppg) 10+ (rpg... and in the years he was putting up 18-20, it would still be 15-18) average his ENTIRE career. And as an aside (not that it pertains much to Pettit, but he was a decent passer also), assists were a lot tougher to accrue back in the day, so the additional pace ends up evening out most of the discrepancy of today's game.

And yeah, I'm definitely no Lebron hater - he'll very likely get there - but there's just no way he's over Pettit right now given all his stats/accolades to go along with the Championship over (arguably) THE best team/dynasty in all of sports history.



I can get behind him being 3rd or 4th. TBH he is only keeping 3rd best warm until dwade takes that place.

Truth be told.

Chacarron
08-07-2011, 02:07 PM
Kevin Garnett.