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JordansBulls
08-03-2011, 04:45 PM
RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.
NO POSTING in your FORUM, VOTE for this GUY. We had problems last time with it and NO POSTING in someone Else's Forum to VOTE for a certain player.


Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.


Voting for #18 has concluded and PSD's Official #18 NBA Player of all time is....

John Stockton


Top 4 Voters


John Stockton = 34 votes
George Mikan = 20 votes
Kevin Garnett = 11 votes
Lebron James = 11 votes


The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)
18. John Stockton (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640285)


Voting will now begin for the #19 NBA Player All Time


NOTE: You can only nominate one player and that player had to be an allstar multiple times at least probably at least 3 times at a minimum. The player who has the most nomination votes will be added to the next poll. Anyone who nominates more than one player there nomination will be disregarded.

JordansBulls
08-03-2011, 04:55 PM
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18763521&postcount=2

Bruno
08-03-2011, 05:39 PM
I took KG again. Best defensive player on the board left, great rebounder, great on offense. Several have arguments, but I like KG here.

Hellcrooner
08-03-2011, 06:27 PM
mikan again.

And i still want an answer to this

can someone tell me how many Mvps, how many rings, how many accolades, how many allstars etc did

7`7 manute bol 7`7 george muresan 7`6 shawn bradley and 7,4 ralph sampson get?

oh? how come they didnt dominate those "midgets" like

70 ewing 7,1 robinson 6,11 hakeem?

o yeah save me the answer ( because ewing, drob and keem were VERY Talented)

FLASH NEWS

Mikan was 6,10

Dolph schayes was 6,8 alex groza was 6, 7 and they were Very talented too.

The difference of proportion is smaller than in the modern dudes.

So? tell me

why are we not talking bout the great Bol vs Muresan rivalry for goat?

Chronz
08-03-2011, 06:41 PM
mikan again.
Arvydas Sabonis would DESTROY Mikan


And i still want an answer to this

can someone tell me how many Mvps, how many rings, how many accolades, how many allstars etc did

7`7 manute bol 7`7 george muresan 7`6 shawn bradley and 7,4 ralph sampson get?

Those players werent playing in a segregated league without a shot clock or a shortened lane with nobody of similar athleticism.


oh? how come they didnt dominate those "midgets" like

70 ewing 7,1 robinson 6,11 hakeem?

o yeah save me the answer ( because ewing, drob and keem were VERY Talented)

FLASH NEWS

Mikan was 6,10

Dolph schayes was 6,8 alex groza was 6, 7 and they were Very talented too.

The difference of proportion is smaller than in the modern dudes.

So? tell me

why are we not talking bout the great Bol vs Muresan rivalry for goat?

Its not just that he was taller, its that he was the most imposing in a league lacking comparable athletes and he didnt dominate for very long, the shot clock was making his career obsolete and personally if you cant survive the shot clock you never played in the NBA. He had his moments but they arent as dominant as your trying to portray.

Chrisstyles
08-03-2011, 07:17 PM
It's a shame Pettit doesnt get no credit here. His accolades tower over a lot fo people ahead of him on this list. I was the first to nominate him and told people to look him up. Still no one has said anything negative but yet he gets no votes. He's pretty much Dirk Nowitzki on offense, but at the same time the third or fourth best rebounder ever. And hes also very consistent

Hellcrooner
08-03-2011, 07:19 PM
It's a shame Pettit doesnt get no credit here. His accolades tower over a lot fo people ahead of him on this list. I was the first to nominate him and told people to look him up. Still no one has said anything negative but yet he gets no votes. He's pretty much Dirk Nowitzki on offense, but at the same time the third or fourth best rebounder ever. And hes also very consistent

he is my next pick

JordansBulls
08-03-2011, 07:27 PM
It's a shame Pettit doesnt get no credit here. His accolades tower over a lot fo people ahead of him on this list. I was the first to nominate him and told people to look him up. Still no one has said anything negative but yet he gets no votes. He's pretty much Dirk Nowitzki on offense, but at the same time the third or fourth best rebounder ever. And hes also very consistent

Especially considering he led the Hawks to there only title in a league history.

Stuckey#3
08-03-2011, 07:34 PM
I love how all the heat fans think Lebron is legitimately top 25 already.

Geargo Wallace
08-03-2011, 07:47 PM
mikan again.

And i still want an answer to this

can someone tell me how many Mvps, how many rings, how many accolades, how many allstars etc did

7`7 manute bol 7`7 george muresan 7`6 shawn bradley and 7,4 ralph sampson get?

oh? how come they didnt dominate those "midgets" like

70 ewing 7,1 robinson 6,11 hakeem?

o yeah save me the answer ( because ewing, drob and keem were VERY Talented)

FLASH NEWS

Mikan was 6,10

Dolph schayes was 6,8 alex groza was 6, 7 and they were Very talented too.

The difference of proportion is smaller than in the modern dudes.

So? tell me

why are we not talking bout the great Bol vs Muresan rivalry for goat?

Because ppl around the 7 1/2 feet mark are retardedly tall. They are almost always injured. Can't easily carry muscle, athleticism, and weight as well as 6'10ers.

Grizzly Adams
08-03-2011, 07:56 PM
I took KG again. Best defensive player on the board left, great rebounder, great on offense. Several have arguments, but I like KG here.

My reasoning for taking KG here as well.

kozelkid
08-03-2011, 09:40 PM
Between KG and Dirk for me.

23dragonzord
08-03-2011, 10:12 PM
No Scottie pippen love? Best perimeter defender on the board and was pretty good offensively and 6 ships!

Mile High Champ
08-03-2011, 10:19 PM
I explained last poll why I am picking Baylor here and I am sticking by that here.

Hellcrooner
08-03-2011, 10:32 PM
No Scottie pippen love? Best perimeter defender on the board and was pretty good offensively and 6 ships!

as the second man in helm. there are still tons of dudes that won rings or even multiple rings like mikan and thomas left.

THE MTL
08-03-2011, 10:35 PM
I love how all the heat fans think Lebron is legitimately top 25 already.

No its not. I would say Lebron James is legitimate Top 25 already. He's done so much and won everything major in this league outside of DOY and championship

THE MTL
08-03-2011, 10:38 PM
Im taking the BEST PLAYER on board. Lebron James lol. Since deserving guys liek Isiah Thomas are clearly being overlooked

NBAfan4life
08-03-2011, 10:38 PM
Kevin Garnett!

MTar786
08-03-2011, 10:47 PM
I love how all the heat fans think Lebron is legitimately top 25 already.

oh, thats because he probably already is.
i would take lebron somewhere between 25 and 28 right now.

but im with kg here who should be 2 spots higher than this IMO.. seriously? stockton over kg? no way


after kg im going

dirk
mikan
kidd
thomas
iverson
baylor
petit
james
wade
ewing

RealistFan
08-03-2011, 10:47 PM
George Mikan should have made it long ago. He dominated his era and should get credit for being a pioneer. Still, he didn't dominate in the post-shot clock era so there's some concerns regarding how his game would translate to the modern era.

I also don't know what the hell Stockton is doing up there. KG is a much more dominant player. Same with Dirk. Stock was never a dominant or MVP caliber player. I'm not even sure if he's better than Steve Nash. Nash was a much more explosive scorer and knew how to mix in scoring with playmaking which made him a much bigger offensive threat. If Stock could do that, the Jazz would have been more successful.

Hellcrooner
08-03-2011, 10:59 PM
George Mikan should have made it long ago. He dominated his era and should get credit for being a pioneer. Still, he didn't dominate in the post-shot clock era so there's some concerns regarding how his game would translate to the modern era.

I also don't know what the hell Stockton is doing up there. KG is a much more dominant player. Same with Dirk. Stock was never a dominant or MVP caliber player. I'm not even sure if he's better than Steve Nash. Nash was a much more explosive scorer and knew how to mix in scoring with playmaking which made him a much bigger offensive threat. If Stock could do that, the Jazz would have been more successful.

stock was able to score nash too.
stock was one of the best passers ever nash too
stock made ddues around him beter nash too
stock had one of the best court visions ever nash too
stock had one of the highest iq ever nash too
Stock was a GREAT DEFENDER nash...........GAME OVER

JordansBulls
08-03-2011, 11:07 PM
No Scottie pippen love? Best perimeter defender on the board and was pretty good offensively and 6 ships!

As the 2nd guy on a team? Guys like Isiah won as the man. Other guys actually led teams to the finals as the man as well and other guys won league or finals mvp's.

GREATNESS ONE
08-03-2011, 11:14 PM
he is my next pick

Petit is my choice too. Voted for Mikan again but I think it's going to be the last time, I guess I'll just forget about the history of basketball when voting from now on PSD. Keep it to 80's and up. Of course players and the everyday athlete in general not just bball are a lot better. All these athletes have had it laid in front of them just like we as a humanity have had it laid out in front of us. I for one respect my history and show the appreciation these players deserve but I guess it simply comes down to PSD having 70% of the users being between the ages of 14-24.

Hellcrooner
08-03-2011, 11:19 PM
Petit is my choice too. Voted for Mikan again but I think it's going to be the last time, I guess I'll just forget about the history of basketball when voting from now on PSD. Keep it to 80's and up. Of course players and the everyday athlete in general not just bball. All these athletes have had it laid in front of them just like we as a humanity have had it laid out in front of us. I for one respect my history and show the appreciation these players deserve but I guess it simply comes down to PSD having 70% of the users being between the ages of 14-24.

i may need to make a political KG vote tough to avoid stupidity taking over.

SirDJ
08-03-2011, 11:28 PM
alot of tough arguements, so i have to go with my boy iverson

Hellcrooner
08-03-2011, 11:42 PM
iverson shouldnt even be in the frigging list.

GhostfaceDrilla
08-03-2011, 11:58 PM
The German Jesus.

Hellcrooner
08-04-2011, 12:18 AM
The German Jesus.

Franz Beckenbauer?
He uses black and white balls.

ragee
08-04-2011, 12:19 AM
Ok, I voted for KG and I hope he wins so I can start voting for Dirk at 20! :D I still think KG deserved the Finals MVP instead of Pierce when they won the title...

GhostfaceDrilla
08-04-2011, 12:23 AM
Franz Beckenbauer?
He uses black and white balls.

Naaa Dirk Nowitzki.

D-Will4Prez
08-04-2011, 01:03 AM
No love for Ewing? 'Nique?

tredigs
08-04-2011, 01:15 AM
No love for Ewing? 'Nique?

Over Elgin Baylor, Dirk, Garnett, Bob Pettit or Rick Barry? I see no argument for them.

DR_1
08-04-2011, 09:53 AM
Dirk, not really close IMO.

Chronz
08-04-2011, 11:32 AM
My god man Mikan might make it to the top 20-25 range it seems. For the love of chronic WTF did that lumbering inefficient flameout do that deserves to be rated higher than HIS OWN ****ING CONTEMPORARY in Bob Pettit? Well at least they played together 1 year, it wouldve been longer had Mikan been able to withstand the advancing rule changes.

Think about it people, this guy played close to the basket in a shortened lane with no shot clock and shot 39%. Bob Pettit played a game that somewhat resembles a combination of Dirk and Brand in that he had range and regularly took jumpers, he played in a tougher league and still shot 46%.

Why not take the guy from the same era who actually proved he could play in the NBA?

Chronz
08-04-2011, 11:36 AM
BBR Fan rating (which consists of thousands of people) has Mikan in the 50 range, behind the likes of Parish and McAdoo but ahead of Dolph Schayes. Thats more fitting of his talent/legacy

JordansBulls
08-04-2011, 12:29 PM
I should have eliminated Mikan from the list, mainly because on the other site they excluded players who were pre shot era.

pedrofan45
08-04-2011, 12:45 PM
i find pretty stupid that just because Tim Duncan was put into a much better situation than KG Duncan's the 10th of all time and Garnett's barely top 20. KG was absolutely unstoppable in his Minnesota years.

tredigs
08-04-2011, 01:02 PM
My god man Mikan might make it to the top 20-25 range it seems. For the love of chronic WTF did that lumbering inefficient flameout do that deserves to be rated higher than HIS OWN ****ING CONTEMPORARY in Bob Pettit? Well at least they played together 1 year, it wouldve been longer had Mikan been able to withstand the advancing rule changes.

Think about it people, this guy played close to the basket in a shortened lane with no shot clock and shot 39%. Bob Pettit played a game that somewhat resembles a combination of Dirk and Brand in that he had range and regularly took jumpers, he played in a tougher league and still shot 46%.

Why not take the guy from the same era who actually proved he could play in the NBA?

I stopped bothering to defend Pettit (or anyone else really). People either agree and say they will begin to vote for him (but don't) or have no rebuttal. But yes, all your points are exactly right, and you're barely cracking the surface of why Pettit >>> Mikan, and really anyone else left.

Edit: Stockton at 18? Over some of the names we have left? Wow, a bit of a reach fellas.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-04-2011, 01:47 PM
I stopped bothering to defend Pettit (or anyone else really). People either agree and say they will begin to vote for him (but don't) or have no rebuttal. But yes, all your points are exactly right, and you're barely cracking the surface of why Pettit >>> Mikan, and really anyone else left.

Edit: Stockton at 18? Over some of the names we have left? Wow, a bit of a reach fellas.

Eh, I think you could make a good case for KG or Dirk over Pettit. In fact, despite KG's lack of Finals MVP, I would say he led that Celts team to a championship (led the team in playoff Win Shares too). Dirk also has that going for him after this past year. Pettit does not. Hagan was every bit his = in that playoff run, the big difference is that Pettit closed the series with a 50 point game. But up until that point, Hagan was outperforming him in the Finals. Actually, despite that 50 point game, Hagan still had a higher FG% and TS%. Offensively, he was no doubt better. I suppose if you factor in defense, you could say they were equals. Ironically, from a numbers standpoint, Pettit's best playoff run was a different year vs. the one where they won the title.

Pettit's big advantage over Dirk is his defense. I don't really see any advantage that he has over KG. But I think Dirk's excellent playoff numbers can overcome his lack of D in comparison to Pettit. Also, Dirk winning a championship as the clear cut #1, unlike Pettit, is another thing in his favor.

But I agree that Stockton has no business being ahead of Pettit.

LAKERMANIA
08-04-2011, 01:55 PM
I'm still shocked that John Stockton is at #18

Raps18-19 Champ
08-04-2011, 02:06 PM
I've been voting LBJ since the 18th.

His regular season dominance speaks for itself. Playoffs is something he can still make up.

But he's dominated the regular season better than anyone left.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-04-2011, 02:06 PM
For anyone who saw any of those numbers I posted (the evaluating all-time greats using advanced stats), Stockton had THE worst numbers out of all of the people I did. The kicker? He wasn't even close to anyone else.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-04-2011, 02:08 PM
**** Stockton.

I didn't even vote for him.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-04-2011, 02:09 PM
I've been voting LBJ since the 18th.

His regular season dominance speaks for itself. Playoffs is something he can still make up.

But he's dominated the regular season better than anyone left.

He's not even bad in the playoffs. He had a horrible Finals series but does that 1 series make him a bad playoff performer? Dirk used to be called a choker, now he's got a championship and all the people who called him a choker look like idiots/fools. If the same happens to Lebron, there will be a MUCH larger mass of people who look like idiots/fools. At the very least, people need to wait until he's in the twilight of his career, not when he's still in his prime.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-04-2011, 02:16 PM
He's not even bad in the playoffs. He had a horrible Finals series but does that 1 series make him a bad playoff performer? Dirk used to be called a choker, now he's got a championship and all the people who called him a choker look like idiots/fools. If the same happens to Lebron, there will be a MUCH larger mass of people who look like idiots/fools. At the very least, people need to wait until he's in the twilight of his career, not when he's still in his prime.

Yea I don't think he's bad in the playoffs either.

I meant success(title), he can still make up for.

Lebron is one of the most talented players in history. I believe he's top 15. Carrying that Cavs teams many times for success was an achievement on it's own. Especially the Cavs team that made the playoffs.

LAKERMANIA
08-04-2011, 02:52 PM
I've been voting LBJ since the 18th.

His regular season dominance speaks for itself. Playoffs is something he can still make up.

But he's dominated the regular season better than anyone left.

There are players on the board who have better accolades than Lebron we need to get through them first

Raps18-19 Champ
08-04-2011, 02:56 PM
There are players on the board who have better accolades than Lebron we need to get through them first

Meh.

Some have titles but their regular season dominance can be matched.

No one left can match Lebron regular season wise.

Lebron is great in the playoffs too. He's just overshadowed by 2 finals appearances. He's killed it outside of the finals.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-04-2011, 03:05 PM
Meh.

Some have titles but their regular season dominance can be matched.

No one left can match Lebron regular season wise.

Lebron is great in the playoffs too. He's just overshadowed by 2 finals appearances. He's killed it outside of the finals.

I agree with everything here. My main issue with picking Lebron here is that I don't think he's played long enough. His peak/prime is easily better than anyone left plus many of the people picked ahead of him. But he's only played 8 years so hard to pick him here.

How about this fact though, in 2 less seasons, Lebron has already accumulated more Win Shares than Hakeem did in his best 10 consecutive seasons. :speechless:

Lake_Show2416
08-04-2011, 03:07 PM
Lebron top 20?? :laugh2:

Raps18-19 Champ
08-04-2011, 03:09 PM
I agree with everything here. My main issue with picking Lebron here is that I don't think he's played long enough. His peak/prime is easily better than anyone left plus many of the people picked ahead of him. But he's only played 8 years so hard to pick him here.

How about this fact though, in 2 less seasons, Lebron has already accumulated more Win Shares than Hakeem did in his best 10 consecutive seasons. :speechless:

For over half of these players, you can easily take their best 8 years and they won't be able to match Lebron's dominance.

Then you have idiots picking players who were only effective for like 6 years or something.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-04-2011, 03:11 PM
Lebron top 20?? :laugh2:

You're an idiot.

Other than that 1 title, he has exceeding more than enough in other fields.

His dominance in the regular seasons + playoffs(outside of the finals) can only be matched by about 10-15 people.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-04-2011, 03:17 PM
For over half of these players, you can easily take their best 8 years and they won't be able to match Lebron's dominance.

Then you have idiots picking players who were only effective for like 6 years or something.

Yup, as I said, his peak/prime is easily better then everyone's probably save MJ, Kareem and Wilt.

I don't know if you saw this post (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18595784&postcount=34) but I had tried to come up with a statistical snapshot of each player's career. Haven't done it for Lebron yet though but I'm fairly confident that he'll come out way ahead and probably higher then he deserves. (The thread is here (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634461))

And Chronz, I'm still awaiting your response :(



You're an idiot.

Other than that 1 title, he has exceeding more than enough in other fields.

His dominance in the regular seasons + playoffs(outside of the finals) can only be matched by about 10-15 people.

More like 3-4

Raps18-19 Champ
08-04-2011, 03:26 PM
Yup, as I said, his peak/prime is easily better then everyone's probably save MJ, Kareem and Wilt.

I don't know if you saw this post (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18595784&postcount=34) but I had tried to come up with a statistical snapshot of each player's career. Haven't done it for Lebron yet though but I'm fairly confident that he'll come out way ahead and probably higher then he deserves. (The thread is here (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634461))

And Chronz, I'm still awaiting your response :(




More like 3-4

Great post.

Lebron's dominance is unmatched. People are just blinded because he can't win a title yet. Same with Kobe after Shaq left.


And yea 3-4 sounds more reasonable. I was just giving some the benefit of the doubt.

Lake_Show2416
08-04-2011, 03:32 PM
You're an idiot.

Other than that 1 title, he has exceeding more than enough in other fields.

His dominance in the regular seasons + playoffs(outside of the finals) can only be matched by about 10-15 people.

:facepalm: ya just dont count any of his poor performances but seriously wut r u 12?? kno ur history before u try to make urself feel bigger & attempt to insult someone over the computer, i can easily find 5 players on the list that should b above Lebron

Raps18-19 Champ
08-04-2011, 03:35 PM
:facepalm: ya just dont count any of his poor performances but seriously wut r u 12?? kno ur history before u try to make urself feel bigger & attempt to insult someone over the computer, i can easily find 5 players on the list that should b above Lebron

I discounted his finals appearance because haters only base Lebron basically on his failures in the finals. Outside the finals and he is near unstoppable.

What are you basing those players on? Players with titles who never dominated games in their careers?

LAKERMANIA
08-04-2011, 03:39 PM
I discounted his finals appearance because haters only base Lebron basically on his failures in the finals. Outside the finals and he is near unstoppable.

What are you basing those players on? Players with titles who never dominated games in their careers?

To me Lebron is top 30, not necessarily top 20 yet... The thing is, the finals is still something you have to take into consideration. Like for Kobe, even though Laker fans say "dont count his first three years" or "Don't count the time when he was second fiddle to Shaq", you still have to take it in to consideration when discussing greatest players of all time..

Lebron is great, he will be top 20 when he retires for sure, but as of today the finals performances are what sets him back, and it is a fair argument against him to be honest.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-04-2011, 03:42 PM
To me Lebron is top 30, not necessarily top 20 yet... The thing is, the finals is still something you have to take into consideration. Like for Kobe, even though Laker fans say "dont count his first three years" or "Don't count the time when he was second fiddle to Shaq", you still have to take it in to consideration when discussing greatest players of all time..

Lebron is great, he will be top 20 when he retires for sure, but as of today the finals performances are what sets him back, and it is a fair argument against him to be honest.

There are those too blinded though.

People actually base his whole playoff performance on the finals alone. In reality, he's killed it outside the finals.

Bruno
08-04-2011, 03:49 PM
Despite LBJs regular season dominance, there are still about 20 players left on the board who lead him in regular season win-shares. Obviously his PER, WS/48 and two MVps speak for themselves, but there are other players left on the board who have played twice as long, who have done more. Especially in the playoffs, where the finals matter a lot. LBJ averaged 17 ppg in the 2011 NBA Finals, it was the biggest regular season to finals scoring drop off in league history. The Heat also lost with home-court advantage, that stuff matters.

Baring some kind of injury, LBJ will retire top 10, but as of today it's still too early for him to crack top 20, IMO. Especially while there are guys like Petit, KG, Dirk still on the board. I'd probably have James somewhere in the 22-25 range at this point.

More or less, obviously his peak is top five. But he needs a bit more longevity, and playoff/finals success before he should get the nod over Petit, Dirk and KG (IMO).

PatsSoxKnicks
08-04-2011, 03:55 PM
Great post.

Lebron's dominance is unmatched. People are just blinded because he can't win a title yet. Same with Kobe after Shaq left.


And yea 3-4 sounds more reasonable. I was just giving some the benefit of the doubt.

The lengthy post in the other thread or the post you quoted? Because I didn't really post anything "news flashing" in the post you quoted lol.

Anyways, yeah, I've just started doing some of Lebron's #'s out. They are ridiculously good, which I guess is stating the obvious lol.

LAKERMANIA
08-04-2011, 03:55 PM
There are those too blinded though.

People actually base his whole playoff performance on the finals alone. In reality, he's killed it outside the finals.

Arguably, if you do great all throughout the playoffs, but suck in the Finals, the rest didn't really matter, because the whole point was to win a championship, and it didn't happen because you didn't play well (along with team problems) in the finals... It's a fair argument and it is what sets him back to the 20-30 argument.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-04-2011, 03:58 PM
The lengthy post in the other thread or the post you quoted? Because I didn't really post anything "news flashing" in the post you quoted lol.

Anyways, yeah, I've just started doing some of Lebron's #'s out. They are ridiculously good, which I guess is stating the obvious lol.

The post in the link was a great post.

Long read but good.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-04-2011, 03:59 PM
Despite LBJs regular season dominance, there are still about 20 players left on the board who lead him in regular season win-shares. Obviously his PER, WS/48 and two MVps speak for themselves, but there are other players left on the board who have played twice as long, who have done more. Especially in the playoffs, where the finals matter a lot. LBJ averaged 17 ppg in the 2011 NBA Finals, it was the biggest regular season to finals scoring drop off in league history. The Heat also lost with home-court advantage, that stuff matters.

Baring some kind of injury, LBJ will retire top 10, but as of today it's still too early for him to crack top 20, IMO. Especially while there are guys like Petit, KG, Dirk still on the board. I'd probably have James somewhere in the 22-25 range at this point.

More or less, obviously his peak is top five. But he needs a bit more longevity, and playoff/finals success before he should get the nod over Petit, Dirk and KG (IMO).

Yea but I mean Lebron kills Garnett and Dirk in almost everything outside of that 1 championship they have.

Does that 1 championship make the big difference?

PatsSoxKnicks
08-04-2011, 04:02 PM
Yea but I mean Lebron kills Garnett and Dirk in almost everything outside of that 1 championship they have.

Does that 1 championship make the big difference?

Well, Dirk and KG have longevity too. Thats the only reason why I have them ahead of Lebron. To be honest, if Lebron had 2 more seasons played, I'd have him top 15 easily, maybe higher.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-04-2011, 04:05 PM
Arguably, if you do great all throughout the playoffs, but suck in the Finals, the rest didn't really matter, because the whole point was to win a championship, and it didn't happen because you didn't play well (along with team problems) in the finals... It's a fair argument and it is what sets him back to the 20-30 argument.

So you're judging the guy on 10 games vs. a much larger sample size in either the playoffs or regular season? Pretty ridiculous if you ask me, especially because if you look at his overall playoff numbers, they are still amazing. At what point is 10 games just 10 games and a small sample size? We're not even talking about a player who has played in 5-6 Finals, we're talking about someone who's played in 2.

Take Kobe's career out and what if you were to judge him based on his first 2 Finals appearances? Wouldn't be very fair would it? That's the same standards you're using for Lebron.

jdcruzzz22
08-04-2011, 04:14 PM
Scottie deserves to be #19. Why? He was an elite perimeter defender and he knows how to finish around the rim. He was the perfect Robin to MJ's Batman. If the Bulls never had Scottie, Jordan would've only won 2 or 3 titles.

LAKERMANIA
08-04-2011, 04:17 PM
So you're judging the guy on 10 games vs. a much larger sample size in either the playoffs or regular season? Pretty ridiculous if you ask me, especially because if you look at his overall playoff numbers, they are still amazing. At what point is 10 games just 10 games and a small sample size? We're not even talking about a player who has played in 5-6 Finals, we're talking about someone who's played in 2.

Take Kobe's career out and what if you were to judge him based on his first 2 Finals appearances? Wouldn't be very fair would it? That's the same standards you're using for Lebron.

If Kobe at 8 years into the NBA was in 2 Finals appearances and failed to perform well in both those appearances and did not win any of those titles, then yes I would say that Kobe wouldn't be as good in terms of Greatest Players of All time because there are players on the board who have championships along with great numbers..

Hellcrooner
08-04-2011, 04:32 PM
Scottie deserves to be #19. Why? He was an elite perimeter defender and he knows how to finish around the rim. He was the perfect Robin to MJ's Batman. If the Bulls never had Scottie, Jordan would've only won 2 or 3 titles.

robins belong in the teen titans not the justice league.
specially when you got a good amount of batmans left

Chronz
08-04-2011, 04:41 PM
If Kobe at 8 years into the NBA was in 2 Finals appearances and failed to perform well in both those appearances and did not win any of those titles, then yes I would say that Kobe wouldn't be as good in terms of Greatest Players of All time because there are players on the board who have championships along with great numbers..

But Kobe wasnt winning MVP's and carrying subpar teams far beyond their talent levels 8 years in.

Bruno
08-04-2011, 04:50 PM
Yea but I mean Lebron kills Garnett and Dirk in almost everything outside of that 1 championship they have.

Does that 1 championship make the big difference?

It's more than just the championship and poor finals performances, that's why I mentioned total regular season win-shares and how about 20 players on our list top him in that category. It's longevity too, he hasn't played long enough to crack top 20, IMO. He doesn't kill Dirk or KG in regular season he's seasons behind them (40-55 total WS). I think he needs a couple of more season before cracking top 20, thats all.

But in a direct comparison to Dirk? Yea, I think that one championship makes a big difference. They played against each-other, and Dirk outplayed him by a large margin. Had the Heat won and LBJ won the finals MVP I wouldn't be making this argument in favor of Dirk over him.

Hellcrooner
08-04-2011, 04:52 PM
imo 1 ring shouldnt hide 10 yeaqrs of having a top 3 roster and not making it furhter than 2 round most of the times.

nor to be defeated by 8th seed.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-04-2011, 04:59 PM
imo 1 ring shouldnt hide 10 yeaqrs of having a top 3 roster and not making it furhter than 2 round most of the times.

nor to be defeated by 8th seed.

Edit, nvm, you were talking about Dirk.

Well in that case, there's an obvious explanation. We all know you don't like Dirk. Quit hiding behind it and admit you're biased when judging him.

Hellcrooner
08-04-2011, 05:08 PM
Edit, nvm, you were talking about Dirk.

Well in that case, there's an obvious explanation. We all know you don't like Dirk. Quit hiding behind it and admit you're biased when judging him.

biased as in ranking him 50 to 60 before the ring when he probably was 40 to 50?

and biased as in ranking him 35-40 now when he probably is 25 to 30?


Maybe or maybe not.

It still does not make him a top 20 player

mavwar53
08-04-2011, 05:22 PM
Thinking about how the voting went, the #14 and #18 player of all time played on the same team for 10+ years yet they never won a championship. Thinking of it like that makes me want to downgrade Malone and Stockton even though I voted for both of them just like most others.

Lake_Show2416
08-04-2011, 06:17 PM
im surprised theres almost no love for Patrick Ewing, if he had a better supporting cast around him, he could have easily won multiple championships & im not even a Ewing fan

LAKERMANIA
08-04-2011, 06:25 PM
But Kobe wasnt winning MVP's and carrying subpar teams far beyond their talent levels 8 years in.

I didn't say Lebron James sucked and doesnt deserve to be mentioned in the top 100 list... I said he is great, his regular season numbers are amazing, but not only did he not win in 2 finals appearances, he didnt perform well in both finals appearances while doing well in any other round of the playoffs, IMO, that makes him look worse, not better..

On the NBA's biggest stage where Jordan became Jordan and Magic became Magic and so on, you didn't win ALONG WITH you didn't perform well, if he performed like he did in the regular season in the NBA finals then I would say it wasn't his fault, but come on, if you cant perform on the NBA's grandest stage, your stock falls when we are talking about Greatest Players of all time, considering that there are players on the board who have performed well in Finals, AND have won a title..

LAKERMANIA
08-04-2011, 06:35 PM
So you're judging the guy on 10 games vs. a much larger sample size in either the playoffs or regular season? Pretty ridiculous if you ask me, especially because if you look at his overall playoff numbers, they are still amazing. At what point is 10 games just 10 games and a small sample size?
It's not ridiculous because it isn't just 10 ordinary games, its the NBA Finals, if they were just "10 games" as you say then why did his numbers drop SIGNIFICANTLY? If they were just 10 games he should have performed like he did in the regular season.

Sure you are entitled to have a bad game once in a while even in the nba finals, but 2 NBA finals series and 10 games? Its not like he had a bad game every other month and it added up to 10 bad games, they were 4 straight bad games in the 2007 Finals and 6 bad games in the 2011 NBA Finals.. If you do well in the Playoffs and Regular Season and somehow do bad in the finals twice? Whether or not it was a coincidence, he was the leader of the teams he was on (or at least it was perceived that way and if he isn't then Dwayne Wade should be in the conversation of Greatest Players of All Time before Lebron) and he failed to deliver statistically along with actually delivering the two respective cities championships.

All in all, I think he is a great player, I agree that he should be in the discussion already for top 30 of all time, but we are talking about AS OF RIGHT NOW. Who knows maybe next year he comes back and wins a title averaging 40PPG then I will be the first to say that he deserves to be in the top 25 or even 20, but AS OF RIGHT NOW, if he were to retire tomorrow, he isn't.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-04-2011, 08:45 PM
Thinking about how the voting went, the #14 and #18 player of all time played on the same team for 10+ years yet they never won a championship. Thinking of it like that makes me want to downgrade Malone and Stockton even though I voted for both of them just like most others.

Yup, when you begin to think of it in those terms, you really have to wonder a) whether either of them deserve to be that high and b) perhaps the duo was greater than their separate parts. They had 18 years worth of chemistry.

I think both are ranked too high. As I said before, can anyone think of a pair of top 20 players all-time that played together and DIDN'T win a championship?

NBAfan4life
08-04-2011, 08:57 PM
Yup, when you begin to think of it in those terms, you really have to wonder a) whether either of them deserve to be that high and b) perhaps the duo was greater than their separate parts. They had 18 years worth of chemistry.

I think both are ranked too high. As I said before, can anyone think of a pair of top 20 players all-time that played together and DIDN'T win a championship?

Charles Barkley and Dream, but that is an unfair comparison because they were old.

JNA17
08-04-2011, 09:15 PM
George Mikan. Seriously the first legend. Give the respect he deserves damn it!

JNA17
08-04-2011, 09:20 PM
im surprised theres almost no love for Patrick Ewing, if he had a better supporting cast around him, he could have easily won multiple championships & im not even a Ewing fan

If he could make wide open 2 footers in the last seconds of the game, then yes he would be in the discussion ;).

Hellcrooner
08-04-2011, 09:36 PM
Yup, when you begin to think of it in those terms, you really have to wonder a) whether either of them deserve to be that high and b) perhaps the duo was greater than their separate parts. They had 18 years worth of chemistry.

I think both are ranked too high. As I said before, can anyone think of a pair of top 20 players all-time that played together and DIDN'T win a championship?

the question about those two is Who made who?

And i think, against the majority of people that Karl owes his career to John.
Neither shoudl be top 20 tough.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-04-2011, 10:14 PM
the question about those two is Who made who?

And i think, against the majority of people that Karl owes his career to John.
Neither shoudl be top 20 tough.

I personally prefer John too but thats probably because I liked his game better. I'm not sure that Malone wouldn't be a great player without Stockton, although I think the reverse is true too. But both are probably better then they really are because they played so long together.

But yeah, I don't know that either is top 20, well maybe Malone is (he probably is).

Chronz
08-04-2011, 11:37 PM
I didn't say Lebron James sucked and doesnt deserve to be mentioned in the top 100 list...
This isnt an argument or defense, nobody ever said you did. Still Im looking at your post and I think I missed the point you were making, it wasnt you who was making the comparison, you were responding to a comparison that was made.


I said he is great, his regular season numbers are amazing, but not only did he not win in 2 finals appearances, he didnt perform well in both finals appearances while doing well in any other round of the playoffs, IMO, that makes him look worse, not better..
Well now that Im on track can you tell me how him taking a team far beyond their talent base (As he did by willing Cleveland to the Finals) is somehow a knock against him? This year he just carried the biggest MPG and offensive/defensive load of any player on route to the Finals. I can forgive him tiring out at the end after what he had to go through, its a toll nobody else has ever had to carry on route to a title save for possibly Wilt.

Obviously not winning the ring hurts his legacy in that it drops the tally count down to 1, but when the examples of his failures are so heroic then it kind of puts his greatness into perspective. Most players dont get this much out of their teams on a consistent basis, and Bron just needs a few more years and a few titles to solidify his.


On the NBA's biggest stage where Jordan became Jordan and Magic became Magic and so on, you didn't win ALONG WITH you didn't perform well, if he performed like he did in the regular season in the NBA finals then I would say it wasn't his fault, but come on, if you cant perform on the NBA's grandest stage, your stock falls when we are talking about Greatest Players of all time, considering that there are players on the board who have performed well in Finals, AND have won a title..

Meh, players have played far worse than he has, Kobe included. Besides its not as if he loses points for performing below his abilities in the Finals as opposed to playing like **** in R.1 or something. In the end its better to make the Finals in heroic fashion and lose than play like a bum and lose far earlier.

Chronz
08-04-2011, 11:41 PM
If he could make wide open 2 footers in the last seconds of the game, then yes he would be in the discussion ;).

Then why are you voting for Mikan? The guy couldnt even hit **** in a segregated league with a shortened lane AND allowed him all the time he needed to lumber up and down the court considering there was no shot clock.

Hellcrooner
08-04-2011, 11:44 PM
Then why are you voting for Mikan? The guy couldnt even hit **** in a segregated league with a shortened lane AND allowed him all the time he needed to lumber up and down the court considering there was no shot clock.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9mOOiaZ4l4I/RxW3DcHKUqI/AAAAAAAAAHg/E2Zqa2XKTUA/s400/ny15106021740.widec.jpg :eyebrow:

PatsSoxKnicks
08-04-2011, 11:56 PM
Now that I think about it, I wish I had gone KG instead of Dirk. With my initial thinking, I definitely underrated KG's impact on the D end.

LAKERMANIA
08-05-2011, 12:00 AM
Well now that Im on track can you tell me how him taking a team far beyond their talent base (As he did by willing Cleveland to the Finals) is somehow a knock against him?
He deserves credit for taking that Cleveland team to the finals, but regardless that he played a better team, he still didn't perform that well in the finals compared to how he performed in the other rounds of the playoffs, and its not like it was once, it happened twice, two different series, both resulted in losses along with him NOT PERFORMING WELL IN THE FINALS, to me, that doesn't make you top 20 Greatest Players of all time because you choked when the team needed you the most.


This year he just carried the biggest MPG and offensive/defensive load of any player on route to the Finals. I can forgive him tiring out at the end after what he had to go through, its a toll nobody else has ever had to carry on route to a title save for possibly Wilt.
Well I'm sorry to hear that but I dont, he didn't deliver what else do you want me to say? A top 20 player TO ME, means you played well in the finals and you lost because your opponent was better, or you performed well in the finals and you won the title, you cant be considered that great if you owned the 1st three rounds of the playoffs and decided not to show up in the Finals when the team needs you the most.


Obviously not winning the ring hurts his legacy in that it drops the tally count down to 1, but when the examples of his failures are so heroic then it kind of puts his greatness into perspective. Most players dont get this much out of their teams on a consistent basis, and Bron just needs a few more years and a few titles to solidify his.
Agreed, a few more years (maybe) a title or two then I will say something completely different, but as of now I havent seen any evidence of him showing up in the finals.




Meh, players have played far worse than he has, Kobe included.
That isnt the question at hand, we aren't talking about other players we are talking about Lebron.


Besides its not as if he loses points for performing below his abilities in the Finals as opposed to playing like **** in R.1 or something. In the end its better to make the Finals in heroic fashion and lose than play like a bum and lose far earlier.

Losing is Losing, you can lose in R1 or the Finals you still lost, history doesn't reward you for second place, that's the problem with younger players today, they make too many excuses, you either win or dont, winners get top 20 for me those who make excuses for themselves dont. That's my definition of greatness anyway, you can have ****** stats, but if your playoff and finals numbers are incredible and you took your team to the finals and performed beyond your wildest imaginations you get major credit but you get A LOT more credit (way more) if you win the championship as the main guy. That's why people last year would have never even mentioned Dirk in the top 20 or 25 but they do this year, why? Because he won a title.

RealistFan
08-05-2011, 12:09 AM
stock was able to score nash too.
stock was one of the best passers ever nash too
stock made ddues around him beter nash too
stock had one of the best court visions ever nash too
stock had one of the highest iq ever nash too
Stock was a GREAT DEFENDER nash...........GAME OVER

Stockton was not a great defender and PG defense is not as important as PG offense. Stockton did not have the ability to takeover games like Nash did. He wasn't as much of a threat to score, if he was he would done so because the Jazz relied too much on Karl to do the heavylifting. Nash is also a better and more creative playmaker (save me the assists please) because he's more willing to take risks and has an easier time breaking down defenses. Nash runs the pick and roll just as well as Stockton did and he's more inclined to shoot if his defender goes under the screen. Stockton has been lit up numerous times on the defensive end just to let you know. Check Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf drop his career high on him.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-05-2011, 12:19 AM
But thats the whole problem with that argument. Dirk didn't all of a sudden become a different player because he won a championship. His shot has always been unguardable. It wasn't anymore unguardable this year vs. any of the others. It's not like he played any better defensively this year vs. some others. No, whats the difference? His TEAM played better. He's the SAME exact player he was last year. It's just now he has a ring because the team around him finally stepped up.

Also, I disagree about losing is all the same. Getting to the Finals is better than losing in Round 1. I know I'd certainly trade in the Knicks losing in the Finals vs. what happened this year.

Hellcrooner
08-05-2011, 12:22 AM
Stockton was not a great defender and PG defense is not as important as PG offense. Stockton did not have the ability to takeover games like Nash did. He wasn't as much of a threat to score, if he was he would done so because the Jazz relied too much on Karl to do the heavylifting. Nash is also a better and more creative playmaker (save me the assists please) because he's more willing to take risks and has an easier time breaking down defenses. Nash runs the pick and roll just as well as Stockton did and he's more inclined to shoot if his defender goes under the screen. Stockton has been lit up numerous times on the defensive end just to let you know. Check Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf drop his career high on him.

nah he just made the all defensive second team 5 times.

Nto great uh?

The only thing that stopped him from geting some FiRST defensive teams was that he existed a t the same time than Alvin robertson, Gary Payton and Jason kidd.

Hellcrooner
08-05-2011, 12:24 AM
btw im nominating Nate Thurmond

LAKERMANIA
08-05-2011, 12:49 AM
But thats the whole problem with that argument. Dirk didn't all of a sudden become a different player because he won a championship. His shot has always been unguardable. It wasn't anymore unguardable this year vs. any of the others. It's not like he played any better defensively this year vs. some others. No, whats the difference? His TEAM played better. He's the SAME exact player he was last year. It's just now he has a ring because the team around him finally stepped up.
I didn't say he became a different player this year compared to last or years before last year, I'm saying people here, on ESPN, everywhere ALL OF A SUDDEN this year after winning the championship have been saying he is NOW top 20 or 25 when years before if you said that to anyone you would have had A LOT of people thinking you had been drinking way too much.


Also, I disagree about losing is all the same. Getting to the Finals is better than losing in Round 1. I know I'd certainly trade in the Knicks losing in the Finals vs. what happened this year.

I guess that's where we have to agree to disagree. Maybe its all those years being a Lakers and Jordan fan, to me winning the title is the epitome of success, you can have great season stats but IMO if you dont show up in the finals you are missing one hell of a portion of your resume if we are talking greatest players of all time

Chronz
08-05-2011, 01:21 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9mOOiaZ4l4I/RxW3DcHKUqI/AAAAAAAAAHg/E2Zqa2XKTUA/s400/ny15106021740.widec.jpg :eyebrow:

So you think allowing 2 blacks per team or whatever the quota was makes the league legit?

Hellcrooner
08-05-2011, 01:39 AM
^ did babe ruth play in a FULLY segregated league.?

PatsSoxKnicks
08-05-2011, 01:58 AM
I didn't say he became a different player this year compared to last or years before last year, I'm saying people here, on ESPN, everywhere ALL OF A SUDDEN this year after winning the championship have been saying he is NOW top 20 or 25 when years before if you said that to anyone you would have had A LOT of people thinking you had been drinking way too much.

But again, regardless of popular opinion, he's still the same player. I suppose what you could argue is that leading a team with no HOF/top 15 caliber #2 on it is very impressive and therefore boosts his resume. But again, I would give him that credit even if he just got to the Finals (much the same way I do with Barkley for carrying that Suns team w/o a HOF/top 15 caliber #2 guy to the Finals).



I guess that's where we have to agree to disagree. Maybe its all those years being a Lakers and Jordan fan, to me winning the title is the epitome of success, you can have great season stats but IMO if you dont show up in the finals you are missing one hell of a portion of your resume if we are talking greatest players of all time

Yeah, maybe its got to do with the teams we root for lol. But I honestly don't see how getting to the Finals isn't better then losing in the 1st round. I mean, at least losing in the Finals, you get the EC trophy. You get squat for losing in the 1st round.

LAKERMANIA
08-05-2011, 02:02 AM
Yeah, maybe its got to do with the teams we root for lol. But I honestly don't see how getting to the Finals isn't better then losing in the 1st round. I mean, at least losing in the Finals, you get the EC trophy. You get squat for losing in the 1st round.

To me, if we get to the finals and lose it feels worse than losing in the first round, once again being a Laker fan I could care less about the Western Conference trophy, we play for the big one, the Larry O'brien, and nothing else.

tredigs
08-05-2011, 02:09 AM
^ did babe ruth play in a FULLY segregated league.?

No, but he played against players his size - he was simply better than everyone else to a point that nobody could compete with. Also, he was a dominant pitcher and a dominant batter. Nobody else was well rounded in his nature. He transcended dominance.

Mikan? Mikan was not the player Pettit was (to compare a similar player in the same era), and did it for a far shorter amount of time in a far inferior league with rules that favored bigs HUGELY.

Can you make a direct argument of Mikan > Pettit for me? I haven't seen anybody do this yet, could've missed it... I'm all ears.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-05-2011, 02:28 AM
No, but he played against players his size - he was simply better than everyone else to a point that nobody could compete with. Also, he was a dominant pitcher and a dominant batter. Nobody else was well rounded in his nature. He transcended dominance.

Mikan? Mikan was not the player Pettit was (to compare a similar player in the same era), and did it for a far shorter amount of time in a far inferior league with rules that favored bigs HUGELY.

Can you make a direct argument of Mikan > Pettit for me? I haven't seen anybody do this yet, could've missed it... I'm all ears.

No one has. A lot of the people who voted for Mikan just voted and then left.

RealistFan
08-05-2011, 02:32 AM
nah he just made the all defensive second team 5 times.

Nto great uh?

The only thing that stopped him from geting some FiRST defensive teams was that he existed a t the same time than Alvin robertson, Gary Payton and Jason kidd.

I don't really care about All-Defensive teams. In Stockton's era the following guards were better defenders:

Mookie Blaylock
Alvin Robertson
Gary Payton
Vernon Maxwell
Michael Jordan
Eddie Jones
Joe Dumars
Derek Harper
John Starks
Jason Kidd
Nate McMillan
Bobby Phills

This is off the top of my head. I may be missing a few. Stockton's defense was decent. He was an excellent help defender, good team defender and below average at man defense. He couldn't really hold his hold in an iso play and would often get burnt off the dribble or have players gain enough seperation to shoot over him.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-05-2011, 02:35 AM
To me, if we get to the finals and lose it feels worse than losing in the first round, once again being a Laker fan I could care less about the Western Conference trophy, we play for the big one, the Larry O'brien, and nothing else.

You know what, its got nothing to do with me being a Knicks fan I think. I just prefer getting farther then losing early.

Different sport but I think the general concept applies here. Not sure how much you follow football but you'll notice I'm a Pats fan. If you do follow football (and even if you don't, you'd have to have lived in a box), you'd know the Pats were on the brink of perfection in 07. It doesn't get much better then that. And the way they lost is probably the most painful way for a fan hoping/praying to witness history in the making for his favorite team. And I can tell you with a complete straight face that I'm glad the Pats made it to the Super Bowl rather then losing in the divisional round. That would've made me feel even worse, not to mention the embarrassment. I can deal with the 18-1 taunts fine (well I don't really consider it a taunt) but the having not won a playoff game in 3 years is definitely more annoying.

So even as a fan of a team who's witnessed similar success to the Lakers this past decade, I still prefer losing later rather then the 1st round. I don't think it has anything to do with who we root for, I think its just philosophical differences.

Hellcrooner
08-05-2011, 03:01 AM
No, but he played against players his size - he was simply better than everyone else to a point that nobody could compete with. Also, he was a dominant pitcher and a dominant batter. Nobody else was well rounded in his nature. He transcended dominance.

Mikan? Mikan was not the player Pettit was (to compare a similar player in the same era), and did it for a far shorter amount of time in a far inferior league with rules that favored bigs HUGELY.

Can you make a direct argument of Mikan > Pettit for me? I haven't seen anybody do this yet, could've missed it... I'm all ears.

Over pettit? probably not.

Over Lebron, or barkley, or Karl malone, or stocktong, or dirk?

Of course.

dominance is dominance regardless of eras because you dominate your peers.

Hellcrooner
08-05-2011, 03:03 AM
I don't really care about All-Defensive teams. In Stockton's era the following guards were better defenders:

Mookie Blaylock
Alvin Robertson
Gary Payton
Vernon Maxwell
Michael Jordan
Eddie Jones
Joe Dumars
Derek Harper
John Starks
Jason Kidd
Nate McMillan
Bobby Phills

This is off the top of my head. I may be missing a few. Stockton's defense was decent. He was an excellent help defender, good team defender and below average at man defense. He couldn't really hold his hold in an iso play and would often get burnt off the dribble or have players gain enough seperation to shoot over him.

first thing, i disagree with many of the players you listed as better defenders than him.

2 you are trhowing Sg out there cause your argument is WEAK AS HELL.

3 do you REALLY WANT me to write down all the PGS and SGS that are better deffenders than nash during his career?

I dont have the time really to type half the league x 10 years names

PatsSoxKnicks
08-05-2011, 03:06 AM
Over pettit? probably not.

Over Lebron, or Duncan, or Karl malone, or stocktong, or dirk?

Of course.

dominance is dominance regardless of eras because you dominate your peers.

An argument for Mikan over any of those guys doesn't make sense. But the one that's most atrocious is an argument for Mikan over Duncan? Seriously? How could you possibly form an argument for Mikan over Duncan other then lunacy?

And Mikan's dominance is overstated. He didn't even shoot well AND his "dominance" lasted 3 years. So in other words, he wasn't dominant and he was only great for 3 years. Neither is that appealing, nor worthy of being higher then any of the people you listed.

And I still haven't seen you counter any of Chronz's points regarding Mikan.

PS- If you're going to say you could make an argument, make it, don't just say you can.

Hellcrooner
08-05-2011, 03:09 AM
An argument for Mikan over any of those guys doesn't make sense. But the one that's most atrocious is an argument for Mikan over Duncan? Seriously? How could you possibly form an argument for Mikan over Duncan other then lunacy?

And Mikan's dominance is overstated. He didn't even shoot well AND his "dominance" lasted 3 years. So in other words, he wasn't dominant and he was only great for 3 years. Neither is that appealing, nor worthy of being higher then any of the people you listed.

And I still haven't seen you counter any of Chronz's points regarding Mikan.

PS- If you're going to say you could make an argument, make it, don't just say you can.
fixed.

i was going to write Barkley but for some reaosn i wrote duncan.

And chronz is using DEMAGOGY.
Its worthless to answer to demagogy.

RealistFan
08-05-2011, 03:28 AM
first thing, i disagree with many of the players you listed as better defenders than him.

2 you are trhowing Sg out there cause your argument is WEAK AS HELL.

3 do you REALLY WANT me to write down all the PGS and SGS that are better deffenders than nash during his career?

I dont have the time really to type half the league x 10 years names

Tell me why you disagree otherwise we are going nowhere. Secondly, two spots on the All-Defensive team are reserved for guards (doesn't matter if it's two PGs, two SGs or an SG and a PG). So, why shouldn't I list all guards the were better defenders during his career? I have never said Nash is a better defender than Stockton. You are arguing nothing, basically.

LAKERMANIA
08-05-2011, 12:29 PM
You know what, its got nothing to do with me being a Knicks fan I think. I just prefer getting farther then losing early.

Different sport but I think the general concept applies here. Not sure how much you follow football but you'll notice I'm a Pats fan. If you do follow football (and even if you don't, you'd have to have lived in a box), you'd know the Pats were on the brink of perfection in 07. It doesn't get much better then that. And the way they lost is probably the most painful way for a fan hoping/praying to witness history in the making for his favorite team. And I can tell you with a complete straight face that I'm glad the Pats made it to the Super Bowl rather then losing in the divisional round. That would've made me feel even worse, not to mention the embarrassment. I can deal with the 18-1 taunts fine (well I don't really consider it a taunt) but the having not won a playoff game in 3 years is definitely more annoying.

So even as a fan of a team who's witnessed similar success to the Lakers this past decade, I still prefer losing later rather then the 1st round. I don't think it has anything to do with who we root for, I think its just philosophical differences.
Yeah and that mentality transferred to this Top whatever list, I just personally think the winners should go in the top 20 first (with the exception of Karl Malone maybe) and then the rest because I think that separates the good/great players from the legends

GoPacers33
08-05-2011, 12:34 PM
the king

Lakersfan2483
08-05-2011, 03:38 PM
I am voting for Kevin Garnett.

Hellcrooner
08-05-2011, 06:26 PM
mikan won.

Thanks god.

hard time to decide my next pick, Kg, Thomas, Pettit, havlicek baylor.
Tough task.
I think ill wait a bit and make a political voting basing on personal interest.

Chronz
08-06-2011, 01:40 AM
Well the white guy won it