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JordansBulls
08-01-2011, 05:07 PM
RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.
NO POSTING in your FORUM, VOTE for this GUY. We had problems last time with it and NO POSTING in someone Else's Forum to VOTE for a certain player.


Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.


Voting for #17 has concluded and PSD's Official #17 NBA Player of all time is....

Charles Barkley


Top 3 Voters


Charles Barkley = 28 votes
John Stockton = 20 votes
George Mikan = 11 votes


The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)
17. Charles Barkley (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639576)


Voting will now begin for the #18 NBA Player All Time


NOTE: You can only nominate one player and that player had to be an allstar multiple times at least probably at least 3 times at a minimum. The player who has the most nomination votes will be added to the next poll. Anyone who nominates more than one player there nomination will be disregarded.

JordansBulls
08-01-2011, 05:15 PM
Wrote this in the last thread.



I'm taking Bob Pettit now over Mikan. It's true Mikan won 5 titles in 7 years and is 2nd alltime in Playoff PER and Win Shares/PER 48 minutes, but the guy doesn't have the league MVP's. Pettit won the 1st MVP of the league and won another one with Russell in the league and actually beat the Celtics with Russell on it and it was the only series Russell lost with HCA. Now it is true that Russell missed a lot of the series, but here is a few details as well:


Look at the 1958 finals.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1958.htm

Pettit shot bad who shot 58/137 or 42% FG, but Russell shot even worse. He shot 17/49 for 35% FG as a Center in the finals and overall Russel shot 36% in the playoffs that year. People say it was defense, but when you look at every team, each one of these guys were pretty pathetic.



Pettit first 3 games

11-22
8-20
10-23


Russell first 3 games

4-15
7-15
4-12


Game 4 Russell missed and Pettit was 3-17. So Pettit was on lock once Russell was gone.

Game 5 Russell missed and Pettit was 7-21 that game.


Game 6 Russell comes back and Pettit was 19-34.


So yeah, Russell didn't really have an effect on Pettit.
In fact, Pettit played much much better when Russell was there.

So really can we say it was Russell who limited Pettit when Pettit only played bad when Russell didn't play?


Overall for Pettit when Russell played:

11-22
8-20
10-23
19-34

48%

Games in which Russell missed Pettit was:

3-17
7-21

26%


So yeah, the C's held down Pettit when Russell was gone. So maybe Russell gets too much credit for his defense than he should especially when you consider Pettit was the Center as well.

Also he led in PER 4x in a row.

Has 2 league MVP's as well.

SirDJ
08-01-2011, 05:16 PM
iverson time

Chacarron
08-01-2011, 05:17 PM
George Mikan.

valade16
08-01-2011, 05:51 PM
I'd have to say John Stockton at this point. The dude was so incredibly good and consistent that he's oftentimes forgotten.

GhostfaceDrilla
08-01-2011, 05:54 PM
Dirk Nowitzki. Explained it in last thread. He IS a top 20 player of all time, and seeing how he will probably be voted around 23 or 24 with his current stats, many of you will believe he is top 20 in a few years.

Bruno
08-01-2011, 06:06 PM
I took KG. I think he's the only player left on the board with a league MVP, Defensive player of the year award, and an NBA championship (he should have a Finals MVP too). KG also played PF during the most elite PF era in NBA history. He has battled for years against the likes of prime Duncan, Dirk, Gasol, Wallace, ect as well as the trail ends of Barkley and Malones careers.

I'm thinkin Mikan, Petit and Pippen are up next on my gauges. Don't know the order.

Venomous88
08-01-2011, 06:59 PM
Best Top 100 players list I've seen

http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ranking-top-100-players-in-nba-history.html

NYKalltheway
08-01-2011, 07:29 PM
Dirk Nowitzki. Explained it in last thread. He IS a top 20 player of all time, and seeing how he will probably be voted around 23 or 24 with his current stats, many of you will believe he is top 20 in a few years.

stats-wise you can argue the same thing for around 15 players... Dirk is a phenomenal player, has the best fadeaway shot by a bigman which is an innovation really (Sabonis just had the range and his fadeaway wasn't effective that far from the basket) but many players were innovative and had similar stats ;) You're saying this now, but had Dirk been an American and not a European, he wouldn't have been remembered more than guys like Elvin Hayes, Spencer Haywood, Bob McAdoo, Kevin McHale etc ;) Him being European and having a case at GOAT European basketball player makes him more valuable than these other guys.
And I'm talking about discussions 20-30 years from now where people who watched Dirk play would be 35-55 years olds who wouldn't care less about basketball anymore :p

NYKalltheway
08-01-2011, 07:35 PM
Best Top 100 players list I've seen

http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ranking-top-100-players-in-nba-history.html


45 – Dominique Wilkins
Awards: 1 x All-NBA 1st Team, 4 x All-NBA 2nd Team, 9 x All-Star
Numbers: 24.9ppg, 6.7rpg, 2.5apg, .461 FG%
Words: “He’s probably the most underrated player of our generation. He carried the Hawks. When you went to Atlanta, you had to bring it… because of him” (Charles Barkley).

Indeed...
Fair rankings but I disagree with a lot of players there. I feel that Russell, Kobe, Baylor, Nowitzki, Garnett, Lebron, Wade and Iverson are either very high or quite high. And some guys like Jerry Lucas, Pete Maravich and Patrick Ewing are quite underrated.

MTar786
08-01-2011, 08:48 PM
I took KG. I think he's the only player left on the board with a league MVP, Defensive player of the year award, and an NBA championship (he should have a Finals MVP too). KG also played PF during the most elite PF era in NBA history. He has battled for years against the likes of prime Duncan, Dirk, Gasol, Wallace, ect as well as the trail ends of Barkley and Malones careers.

I'm thinkin Mikan, Petit and Pippen are up next on my gauges. Don't know the order.

i agree with you too. I feel if kg is not voted in by now it should be considered a travesty.
but that finals mvp belongs to pierce.. no question. not that pierce is even half the player kg ever was though.

MTar786
08-01-2011, 08:50 PM
Indeed...
Fair rankings but I disagree with a lot of players there. I feel that Russell, Kobe, Baylor, Nowitzki, Garnett, Lebron, Wade and Iverson are either very high or quite high. And some guys like Jerry Lucas, Pete Maravich and Patrick Ewing are quite underrated.

watch him in the finals against hakeem. The guy shot like under 40% and not even 20ppg and thats for a center.
he is rated just fine so far

NBAfan4life
08-01-2011, 09:42 PM
I took KG. I think he's the only player left on the board with a league MVP, Defensive player of the year award, and an NBA championship (he should have a Finals MVP too). KG also played PF during the most elite PF era in NBA history. He has battled for years against the likes of prime Duncan, Dirk, Gasol, Wallace, ect as well as the trail ends of Barkley and Malones careers.

I'm thinkin Mikan, Petit and Pippen are up next on my gauges. Don't know the order.

That is a very good point. I was thinking Stockton but KG with his DPOY, MVP, and championship combined with a decade of dominance I see a very well deserved vote.

I honestly believe you switch Garnett with TD and it very possible they swap all time rankings.

Hellcrooner
08-01-2011, 10:12 PM
Mikan again.

Nominate Artis gilmore

Hellcrooner
08-01-2011, 10:13 PM
Dirk Nowitzki. Explained it in last thread. He IS a top 20 player of all time, and seeing how he will probably be voted around 23 or 24 with his current stats, many of you will believe he is top 20 in a few years.

No he is NOT , Yet.

He can earn it tough in the rest of his career.

ewmania
08-01-2011, 10:22 PM
mikan all the way

best choice after mr charles

Bruno
08-01-2011, 11:34 PM
i agree with you too. I feel if kg is not voted in by now it should be considered a travesty.
but that finals mvp belongs to pierce.. no question. not that pierce is even half the player kg ever was though.

KG not being selected yet isn't a travesty, there are equal players on the board; just depends on what you value most. A few left of the board have the resumes to compete with KG here.

IMO the C's took that championship because of their D, and KG was responsible for changing that culture. Pierces game three performance might be the worst single game performance by an eventual Finals MVP in league history:

Six points, six boards, three assists, three TO's, five fouls, a TS% of .196.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200806100LAL.html

Obviously he was great for the rest of the series, but for my money I take KG for his defensive intensity (reflected in his defensive rating) as well as his rebounding. Boson was the top ranked defense in 2008 large in part because of KG, who was the defensive player in the year. They didn't beat the Lakers by out-gunning them; the Lakers were held to under 92 points for four of the six games. Defense.

I'd disagree with your last comment too. KG is great, but so is Pierce. Easily "half the player" KG is.

MelkyNYY
08-02-2011, 03:28 AM
Lebron James

Lakersfan2483
08-02-2011, 03:38 AM
I am voting for Kevin Garnett..... In his prime, he was the type of player that would fill up the box score and impact his team from a leadership standpoint. He is one of the greatest defensive players ever to play the game and an elite overall player in his own right (Top 20 player of all time). His impact on the game and on his teammates was quite evident in terms of what he did for the Timberwolves and what he was able to do in Boston. Look at how much success he had in Minnesota while playing with average players at best. The year he was surrounded with talent, he went to the Western Conf. finals against LA. His time in Boston goes almost without saying, he changed the culture up in Boston and made the Celtics one of the best defensive teams of all time and that is what you call, "Impact." In his first year in Boston, they one a championship.

Garnett is one of the better all around players to ever play the game. In terms of versatility, you don't get too much better than KG. He could guard multiple positions, had great court vision, his footwork and post game is/was outstanding. Excellent passer, great feel for the game. He's a rare talent.

Lakersfan2483
08-02-2011, 03:50 AM
I took KG. I think he's the only player left on the board with a league MVP, Defensive player of the year award, and an NBA championship (he should have a Finals MVP too). KG also played PF during the most elite PF era in NBA history. He has battled for years against the likes of prime Duncan, Dirk, Gasol, Wallace, ect as well as the trail ends of Barkley and Malones careers.
I'm thinkin Mikan, Petit and Pippen are up next on my gauges. Don't know the order.



Agree with most of your post, however I wouldn't put Scottie and Mikan ahead of Isaiah Thomas, Patrick Ewing and Bob Petit. I could also make a case for Baylor, Walt Frazier, Elvin Hayes and Willis Reed over Pippen and Mikan.

Lakersfan2483
08-02-2011, 03:56 AM
I nominate James "Big Game" Worthy, Reggie Miller and Paul Pierce to be added to the list for all time greats.

LakersIn5
08-02-2011, 04:24 AM
talent wise. its LEBRON

Bruno
08-02-2011, 04:54 AM
Agree with most of your post, however I wouldn't put Scottie and Mikan ahead of Isaiah Thomas, Patrick Ewing and Bob Petit. I could also make a case for Baylor, Walt Frazier, Elvin Hayes and Willis Reed over Pippen and Mikan.

I like most of those guys you named on offense over Pippen but I take Pippen overall because of his defense. I think he has an argument as the best defensive-wing of all time.

3rd all-time in defensive playoff win-shares behind only Russell and Wilt:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_career_p.html

He's 12th all-time in overall playoff win-shares:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

All-time playoff leader in total steals:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/stl_career_p.html

16th in total defensive regular season win-shares. The only wing players infront of him are Kidd and Havlicek, the rest are PF's or C's.

I also like Pippen as the facilitator of the triangle. 6th in total playoff assists(Behind only Magic, Stockton, Nash, Kidd and Bird)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_career_p.html

Ewing and Reeds playoff numbers are pretty mortal; Ewing has a career post-season TS% of .517%, low for a big guy with his reputation.

Mikan is tough to debate. The numbers and championships are there in spades. But he only played for seven seasons, two of which took place before black players were allowed to compete. Longevity and circumstance don't sway in his favor.

Heediot
08-02-2011, 08:00 AM
lets just say if mikan average 100 pts 30 rebd and 12 blocks per game, it seems many would negate that becuase of the era he played in. to combat this, what would it take for mikan to be recognized as a great player considering the era he played in?

Chronz
08-02-2011, 11:32 AM
Willis Reed and Bill Walton represent the best PEAK arguments but neither lasted long enough for that to really warrant a selection this soon IMO. Which sucks because I rather have a list of the absolute best players but this is more about accolades and career worth.

That being the case how is this not Dirk? He was Pettit enhanced and he won a title vs what may end up being a perennial power.

Chronz
08-02-2011, 11:38 AM
lets just say if mikan average 100 pts 30 rebd and 12 blocks per game, it seems many would negate that becuase of the era he played in. to combat this, what would it take for mikan to be recognized as a great player considering the era he played in?

Well he could start by making more than half his shots, that he couldnt accomplish that in a league with a shortened lane and a non existent shot clock tells us alot about him.

Mikan could never put up the stats necessary, he was too sluggish. This isnt like grading guys like Wilt/Russ, the game was COMPLETELY different, it was barely even basketball. The game was set up for a guy like him to completely dominate yet despite all these advantages he still couldnt dominate by modern standards and when he did rule the league it was only for a few years unless you want to count **** outside the NBA, and if thats the case we may as well nominate my Uncle Joe, he dominated back in the late 40's according to him.

Chronz
08-02-2011, 11:47 AM
Take it back Im picking KG, Dirk continues to play at a superstar level but I need another year or 2 of that before I ignore KG's defensive dominance.

Hellcrooner
08-02-2011, 11:48 AM
Willis Reed and Bill Walton represent the best PEAK arguments but neither lasted long enough for that to really warrant a selection this soon IMO. Which sucks because I rather have a list of the absolute best players but this is more about accolades and career worth.

That being the case how is this not Dirk? He was Pettit enhanced and he won a title vs what may end up being a perennial power.
Mikan / Barry / Stockton/ Thomas/Baylor/ Havlicek/Cousy/ Kg/Wade/Drexler/Frazier/Cowens / Gervin/Mchale/Hayes-


Im voting all of these players before Dirk.

there is no excuse in the world why other people shouldnt vote at least 6 or 7 of these players before they vote Dirk.


Dont get carried away by the new flavour of the ring.

He isnt top 20 yet.

he MAY become top 20, but i really hope his ring count has ended.

JordansBulls
08-02-2011, 12:03 PM
Mikan / Barry / Stockton/ Thomas/Baylor/ Havlicek/Cousy/ Kg/Wade/Drexler/Frazier/Cowens / Gervin/Mchale/Hayes-


Im voting all of these players before Dirk.

there is no excuse in the world why other people shouldnt vote at least 6 or 7 of these players before they vote Dirk.


Dont get carried away by the new flavour of the ring.

He isnt top 20 yet.

he MAY become top 20, but i really hope his ring count has ended.

You are nuts if you think all of those guys are ahead of Dirk, when Dirk has a league mvp and finals mvp and took a team that never won anything to a title.

Chronz
08-02-2011, 12:05 PM
Mikan / Barry / Stockton/ Thomas/Baylor/ Havlicek/Cousy/ Kg/Wade/Drexler/Frazier/Cowens / Gervin/Mchale/Hayes-
Thats a horrible list thats riddled with inconsistencies



Im voting all of these players before Dirk.

I guess this represents a dramatic improvement, before you used to think 40-50 players had a better case, thank god thats over.


there is no excuse in the world why other people shouldnt vote at least 6 or 7 of these players before they vote Dirk.

No excuse in the world, or no excuse in Spain?

And the arguments are plenty, hes better than Mikan because Mikan could barely dominate for a few short years when the league was at its weakest. Hayes was cancerous and not well respected the way Dirk has been throughout his playing days. Gervin was basically a downgraded Tmac, which is fine except for the fact that the dude couldnt play D.


Dont get carried away by the new flavour of the ring.
Umm you may not have noticed but your the one valuing rings, how else do you explain Mikan up there when his dominance as an individual doesnt compare?

Mile High Champ
08-02-2011, 12:09 PM
Tough call.

Hellcrooner
08-02-2011, 12:10 PM
You are nuts if you think all of those guys are ahead of Dirk, when Dirk has a league mvp and finals mvp and took a team that never won anything to a title.

Mikan = 5 titles
Barry = one of best scorers ever lead a worse team that this years mavs to a title
Stockton= member of dream team , best assists man in history
Thomas = 2 titles 3 finals
Baylor= amazing scorer that had the bad luck of meeting the celtics
Havlicek= several rings including some as main man
Cousy= the real leader of the multiring winning celtics
Kg= better deffender, better rebounder, better passer lead the celtics to a ring, he simply IS better
Wade= has one ring too
Drexler= member of the dream team, has a ring too
Frazier= has 2 rings
Cowens = one of the best players ever, included on the oficial 50 men list
Gervin= personal choice, i can take argues bout him
Mchale= 3 rings better defender, rebounder and overall player than dirk, is not his fault he was drafted in a team with bird
Hayes-= reason bullets won a ring.

JordansBulls
08-02-2011, 12:13 PM
Mikan = 5 titles
Barry = one of best scorers ever lead a worse team that this years mavs to a title
Stockton= member of dream team , best assists man in history
Thomas = 2 titles 3 finals
Baylor= amazing scorer that had the bad luck of meeting the celtics
Havlicek= several rings including some as main man
Cousy= the real leader of the multiring winning celtics
Kg= better deffender, better rebounder, better passer lead the celtics to a ring, he simply IS better
Wade= has one ring too
Drexler= member of the dream team, has a ring too
Frazier= has 2 rings
Cowens = one of the best players ever, included on the oficial 50 men list
Gervin= personal choice, i can take argues bout him
Mchale= 3 rings better defender, rebounder and overall player than dirk, is not his fault he was drafted in a team with bird
Hayes-= reason bullets won a ring.

Dirk league mvp and finals mvp and took a franchise that never won anything to a title. How many guys on that list have both league mvp and finals mvp and won a title with a team that never won before? Also finished top 3 in MVP voting on 3 occasions.

Mile High Champ
08-02-2011, 12:17 PM
Very disappointed that Elgin Baylor is getting no love here. He was one of the best of all time.

# 11× NBA All-Star (1959–1965, 1967–1970)
# 10× All-NBA First Team (1959–1965, 1967–1969)

People seem to forget about him since he played the majority of his career in the sixties but that is no excuse to ignore what he has accomplished. Baylor is one of the most accomplished scorers of all time averaging 27.4ppg, 13.5rpg. Simply awesome. Plus he did all of this without the luxury of having a 3 point line.

People need to wake up and bring Elgin into the debate.

Hellcrooner
08-02-2011, 12:18 PM
Dirk league mvp and finals mvp and took a franchise that never won anything to a title. How many guys on that list have both league mvp and finals mvp and won a title with a team that never won before?

regular season mvp is a joke.
basically all of the ones that won the final have the finals mvp ( mmmm it didnt exist but i woudl guess mikan woudl ahve 5 and 5 mvps if they have existed btw)

you overate the " a team that never won anything"

1 theres is always a first time, big deal....
2 some teams have been around less time than others, bascially all of the fundational teams have won at a moment or other.
3 anyway Mikan, Barry ( first and only in SAn FRAn area), Thomas; Hayes, Cousy fit your " first ring to franchise" requirement.
4 This requirement is absurd whats more impressing first clippers ring or Knicks next ring ( clippers/braves didnt even exist when knicks got their last one). or a Kings one ( that has not happened since 50s)

Hellcrooner
08-02-2011, 12:20 PM
Very disappointed that Elgin Baylor is getting no love here. He was one of the best of all time.

# 11× NBA All-Star (1959–1965, 1967–1970)
# 10× All-NBA First Team (1959–1965, 1967–1969)

People seem to forget about him since he played the majority of his career in the sixties but that is no excuse to ignore what he has accomplished. Baylor is one of the most accomplished scorers of all time averaging 27.4ppg, 13.5rpg. Simply awesome. Plus he did all of this without the luxury of having a 3 point line.

People need to wake up and bring Elgin into the debate.

good luck with that.

They are spitting in many players legacies.
And hyping up the flavour of the month.
Cant believe walt bellamy is not even in the list.

Chronz
08-02-2011, 12:21 PM
Elgins career starts off better than anyone on the list save for Pettit but unfortunately the guy never won a ring and fair or not, in his later years prevented his talented teams from winning by being a cancerous hog who (along with Butch) wouldnt relinquish his offensive responsibilities to Wilt. Elgin has a case against Stockton, who Im surprised is winning so decisively but I still think the best arguments to make are for Pettit and Dirk(EDIT: AND KG, dont know why I keep forgetting about him).

Hellcrooner
08-02-2011, 12:21 PM
btw i De-nominate Artis Gilmore and Nominate Dolph Schayes.

Mile High Champ
08-02-2011, 12:21 PM
good luck with that.

They are spitting in many players legacies.
And hyping up the flavour of the month.

I know it does seem like a lost cause but that is the real sad part. As you said, there are way to many teenagers voting for the flavor of the month. I have no problem with KG getting votes here, he should but Baylor with only one vote is simply terrible.

Hellcrooner
08-02-2011, 12:23 PM
Elgins career starts off better than anyone on the list save for Pettit but unfortunately the guy never won a ring and fair or not, in his later years prevented his talented teams from winning by being a cancerous hog who (along with Butch) wouldnt relinquish his offensive responsibilities to Wilt. Elgin has a case against Stockton, who Im surprised is winning so decisively but I still think the best arguments to make are for Pettit and Dirk.

i never understood why Baylor is not considered as a ring winner.

he started the season in the roster when lakers finally got the ring.

Chronz
08-02-2011, 12:24 PM
How did Crooner go from this



Dont get carried away by the new flavour of the ring.


To this:



Mikan = 5 titles
Barry = one of best scorers ever lead a worse team that this years mavs to a title
Stockton= member of dream team , best assists man in history
Thomas = 2 titles 3 finals
Baylor= amazing scorer that had the bad luck of meeting the celtics
Havlicek= several rings including some as main man
Cousy= the real leader of the multiring winning celtics
Kg= better deffender, better rebounder, better passer lead the celtics to a ring, he simply IS better
Wade= has one ring too
Drexler= member of the dream team, has a ring too
Frazier= has 2 rings
Cowens = one of the best players ever, included on the oficial 50 men list
Gervin= personal choice, i can take argues bout him
Mchale= 3 rings better defender, rebounder and overall player than dirk, is not his fault he was drafted in a team with bird
Hayes-= reason bullets won a ring.

LMFAO yea dont use a championship as an argument for Dirk, only against him.

Chronz
08-02-2011, 12:26 PM
i never understood why Baylor is not considered as a ring winner.

he started the season in the roster when lakers finally got the ring.

Cmon I know your joking, the Lakers started the greatest winning streak in the history of the sport the minute he retired. They dont give you rings for holding your team back.

Mile High Champ
08-02-2011, 12:27 PM
Elgins career starts off better than anyone on the list save for Pettit but unfortunately the guy never won a ring and fair or not, in his later years prevented his talented teams from winning by being a cancerous hog who (along with Butch) wouldnt relinquish his offensive responsibilities to Wilt. Elgin has a case against Stockton, who Im surprised is winning so decisively but I still think the best arguments to make are for Pettit and Dirk.

Yes Pettit is another name that deserves some respect in these polls.

I also don't fault Baylor for not winning a ring, no one else did in that period because of the Celtics and Bill Russell either. Plus you are talking about a very small period of time when Wilt played with Elgin. They only played together for 1 and a half seasons (injured the last two years) and that was at the end of Baylor's career. I also think cancerous hog is going a bit too far. He was an incredible player and his stats and accolades confirm that. You are being much to hard on him and judging him based on a small window of his career is unfair to say the least.

Hellcrooner
08-02-2011, 12:31 PM
mmm isnt Chronz a Clippers fan?

I would be mad at baylor too :D thats decades of bad Gmanagement.

Hellcrooner
08-02-2011, 12:33 PM
How did Crooner go from this



To this:




LMFAO yea dont use a championship as an argument for Dirk, only against him.
his ring should be counted.

Thats what moved him in my list from top 40-60 to top 30-35

What im saying is hyping the ring out of proportion in the HEAT OF THE MOMENT ..............uh i promise that has no pun intended.

Mile High Champ
08-02-2011, 12:37 PM
Chronz look at the shot attempts from the only two years Baylor, West & Wilt played together.

1968-69 - Wilt (13.6 FGA), Baylor (21.5 FGA), West (19.0 FGA)
1969-70 - Wilt (18.9 FGA), Baylor (19.5 FGA), West (22.6 FGA)

Looks like West is just as guilty as Baylor when it came to taking shots away from Wilt. West was especially bad in 69-70 when he was taking 22.6 FGA per game. Baylor is nowhere near as bad as you claim and the stats support that.

In the end this is just such a small window of Elgin's career and this is what is going to define his legacy for you? I don't think that is fair one bit.

todu82
08-02-2011, 12:38 PM
John Stockton

mavwar53
08-02-2011, 12:43 PM
To round out the top 20, Stockton, Rick Barry, Dirk.

Chronz
08-02-2011, 12:51 PM
I also don't fault Baylor for not winning a ring, no one else did in that period because of the Celtics and Bill Russell either. Plus you are talking about a very small period of time when Wilt played with Elgin. They only played together for 1 season (injured the last two years) and that was at the end of Baylor's career.
I didnt mean to imply those were the only years he had a shot at a title, 69 is just a year that stands out due to its notoriety.

When you speak of Elgin as a historically great player, you too are also talking about a very short period of time (59-63 by my count) After that the injuries mounted and severely took away from his game. I give him credit for coming back but he didnt come all the way back and it was this loss in athletic ability that led to his inconsistent playoff performances that I argue cost his teams a shot at a title or at the very least a Finals birth.

The reason I said "Fair or not" was because it really is unfair to expect Elgin to turn back the clock and become the player he once was, but if your going to compare him to guys who never suffered those injury woes then you have to live with the results and his teams would have won titles had he been able to perform to his billing as a star. Either we accept that he wasnt a star and should not be held fully accountable or we admit that he failed as a star.


I also think cancerous hog is going a bit too far. He was an incredible player and his stats and accolades confirm that.
You are being much to hard on him and judging him based on a small window of his career is unfair to say the least.

Good point, he wasnt a cancerous player throughout his career and some years his lack of efficiency can be explained by his lack of support outside West, but Im convinced he could have won more had he kept his ego in check. Still the point Im making now is that as much as I may be overstating his failures late, your overvaluing his level of play early.

He was everything you said and more for 5 years of his career, after that he had a few impressive seasons sprinkled in here and there with inconsistent playoff performances.

Chronz
08-02-2011, 12:57 PM
Chronz look at the shot attempts from the only two years Baylor, West & Wilt played together.

1968-69 - Wilt (13.6 FGA), Baylor (21.5 FGA), West (19.0 FGA)
1969-70 - Wilt (18.9 FGA), Baylor (19.5 FGA), West (22.6 FGA)

Looks like West is just as guilty as Baylor when it came to taking shots away from Wilt. West was especially bad in 69-70 when he was taking 22.6 FGA per game. Baylor is nowhere near as bad as you claim and the stats support that.

In the end this is just such a small window of Elgin's career and this is what is going to define his legacy for you? I don't think that is fair one bit.

Hate to burst your bubble but Wilt was gone for all but 12-13 games in 1970, and the only reason he began taking more shots is because their coach at the time (I forget right now) saw what Butch failed to see, that Elgin was controlling too much of the teams offense. He made it a priority to take the ball out of Elgins hands (not West) and give more touches to Wilt. Wilt responded with some vintage performances including a beatdown of KAJ before succumbing to injury.

Also you cant just look at shot volume, efficiency is what validates that usage. Its ok for West to be taking alot of shots when you consider the efficiency and the spacing he provided. Elgin was inefficient and took away from Wilts game. In other words, he was a cancerous player.

Korman12
08-02-2011, 12:58 PM
Pettit, Baylor, and Havlicek are next for me

Mile High Champ
08-02-2011, 01:00 PM
I didnt mean to imply those were the only years he had a shot at a title, 69 is just a year that stands out due to its notoriety.

When you speak of Elgin as a historically great player, you too are also talking about a very short period of time (59-63 by my count) After that the injuries mounted and severely took away from his game. I give him credit for coming back but he didnt come all the way back and it was this loss in athletic ability that led to his inconsistent playoff performances that I argue cost his teams a shot at a title or at the very least a Finals birth.

The reason I said "Fair or not" was because it really is unfair to expect Elgin to turn back the clock and become the player he once was, but if your going to compare him to guys who never suffered those injury woes then you have to live with the results and his teams would have won titles had he been able to perform to his billing as a star. Either we accept that he wasnt a star and should not be held fully accountable or we admit that he failed as a star.


Good point, he wasnt a cancerous player throughout his career and some years his lack of efficiency can be explained by his lack of support outside West, but Im convinced he could have won more had he kept his ego in check. Still the point Im making now is that as much as I may be overstating his failures late, your overvaluing his level of play early.

He was everything you said and more for 5 years of his career, after that he had a few impressive seasons sprinkled in here and there with inconsistent playoff performances.

I can't argue with much you have said because I would agree with you. I guess for me, his dominance in that 5 year window was outstanding as there was little he could not do on the offensive end of the floor. Not to mention averaging 19.8 in one season on the glass at 6-5 is truly special. In the end as you said, I am looking at the start of his career more than the end and I think it is absolutely crazy that he only has one vote in this poll. He deserves better.

JordansBulls
08-02-2011, 01:00 PM
regular season mvp is a joke.
basically all of the ones that won the final have the finals mvp ( mmmm it didnt exist but i woudl guess mikan woudl ahve 5 and 5 mvps if they have existed btw)

you overate the " a team that never won anything"

1 theres is always a first time, big deal....
2 some teams have been around less time than others, bascially all of the fundational teams have won at a moment or other.
3 anyway Mikan, Barry ( first and only in SAn FRAn area), Thomas; Hayes, Cousy fit your " first ring to franchise" requirement.
4 This requirement is absurd whats more impressing first clippers ring or Knicks next ring ( clippers/braves didnt even exist when knicks got their last one). or a Kings one ( that has not happened since 50s)

Unseld was the finals mvp and he won league mvp as well.

Chronz
08-02-2011, 01:01 PM
his ring should be counted.

Thats what moved him in my list from top 40-60 to top 30-35

What im saying is hyping the ring out of proportion in the HEAT OF THE MOMENT ..............uh i promise that has no pun intended.

gotya

J-Relo
08-02-2011, 01:01 PM
Barkley over Stockton and Mikan?

wrong wrong wrong...

Mikan. Then Stockton.

Chronz
08-02-2011, 01:07 PM
I can't argue with much you have said because I would agree with you. I guess for me, his dominance in that 5 year window was outstanding as there was little he could not do on the offensive end of the floor. Not to mention averaging 19.8 in one season on the glass at 6-5 is truly special. In the end as you said, I am looking at the start of his career more than the end and I think it is absolutely crazy that he only has one vote in this poll. He deserves better.

Yep its the ultimate argument of prime vs peak vs longevity. Dirk has had an incredible prime run, Elgin has arguably the greatest PEAK run.

But it seems longevity and durability are winning this round with Stockton running away with it.

I dont make too much of how the votes are dispersed, Im sure Elgin will be gone sooner than some with more votes than him now.

Hellcrooner
08-02-2011, 01:08 PM
Barkley over Stockton and Mikan?

wrong wrong wrong...

Mikan. Then Stockton.

Yep barkley has gone overated.

As a matter of fact from the Sacred cows of the past the one i had doubts about ranking above or under Dirk its precisely the fat dude.

Btw In my eyes Stockton > K Malone.

Lakersfan2483
08-02-2011, 01:33 PM
How in the world is John Stockton winning this poll? What are people basing their arguments on? Stockton was a great player and a top 50 all time player, but there is no way he's ahead of guys like KG, Bob Petit, Rick Barry, Havlicek, Baylor, I. Thomas, Dirk, E. Hayes, etc. Stockton would fall into the top 35 to 40 category. As a no. 1 option, Stockton would not achieve more than those guys(He was a no. 2 option for a reason, he couldn't carry a team offensively the way that those guys could. Malone was the no. 1 option for a reason. Stockton was ideal in his position as the set up guy). He was a great, world class/prototype point guard, but did not achieve more than those guys I mentioned when comparing what he did as a no. 2 guy against what they achieved as a no. 1.

I just don't understand the voting around here? A lot of people just vote without stating why and making a case for a player. Guys like Petit, KG, Rick Barry and E. Baylor aren't even getting the recognition that they should and I am not sure why? All people have to do is take the time to study their careers and look at what they did not only from a statistical standpoint but look at what achieved as the "main" player on their respective teams.

Lakersfan2483
08-02-2011, 01:45 PM
Yep barkley has gone overated.

As a matter of fact from the Sacred cows of the past the one i had doubts about ranking above or under Dirk its precisely the fat dude.

Btw In my eyes Stockton > K Malone.

Barkley isn't overrated. How is he overrated? Look at his numbers and impact. He was playing with trash in Philly and still leading them to the playoffs. When he did get some help, he went to the finals and won league mvp (93 Suns).

You are also underestimating Karl Malone's greatness. Malone had a monster peak and was consistently great for years on both ends of the floor as the clear cut no. 1 option on his team.

alencp3
08-02-2011, 02:00 PM
so a guy who was second fiddle all of his career and never won a ring while putting decent stats ( nothing extraordinary) is a top 20 player of all time ? lol

Chronz
08-02-2011, 02:17 PM
so a guy who was second fiddle all of his career and never won a ring while putting decent stats ( nothing extraordinary) is a top 20 player of all time ? lol

I agree hes not up to par with the rest of the stars on the list in terms of peak ability but there is something to be said for being able to play as long as he did.

Im with you on this one though, I dont know what the cut off should be but I rather have KG for as long as he was dominant than a lesser Stockton forever.

But Stockton did accumulate some pretty legendary WS #'s

Mile High Champ
08-02-2011, 02:21 PM
Yep its the ultimate argument of prime vs peak vs longevity. Dirk has had an incredible prime run, Elgin has arguably the greatest PEAK run.

But it seems longevity and durability are winning this round with Stockton running away with it.

I dont make too much of how the votes are dispersed, Im sure Elgin will be gone sooner than some with more votes than him now.

I hope he is gone in the next 5 rounds though. I am kind or surprised that Stockton is taking this. Not to take anything away from him but I just don't see him as a top 20 player.

LAKERMANIA
08-02-2011, 02:23 PM
so a guy who was second fiddle all of his career and never won a ring while putting decent stats ( nothing extraordinary) is a top 20 player of all time ? lol

I dont understand this either, how is stock better than Havlicek, Pettit and Mikan??? What is it with picking random *** players in every thread and everyone else following??

Bruno
08-02-2011, 03:28 PM
Do any of the Stockton people feel like defending their votes?

Mile High Champ
08-02-2011, 03:52 PM
Do any of the Stockton people feel like defending their votes?

I would love to see that.

Hellcrooner
08-02-2011, 04:26 PM
its funny how stockton is being overated and underated at the same time.

Overated in votings ( he shoudl by no means end up higher than MIkan, Pettit, barry....)


But at the same time, posters are hating on him too much and undervaluing him greately.

NYKalltheway
08-02-2011, 04:39 PM
I literally laugh at all the people that voted for Kobe at #8 and wanted him to go higher and claim that Stockton is not a #18 calibre player, heck not even top 20 kind of player... Seriously, people's minds can get really crazy when they wear colored glasses

DR_1
08-02-2011, 05:06 PM
Stockton here. So underrated.

JordansBulls
08-02-2011, 05:17 PM
The only argument Stockton has is that he is the all time leader in assists and steals, but when you consider where he was in the MVP voting:

MVP Award Shares

1987-88 NBA 0.019 (10)
1988-89 NBA 0.033 (7)
1989-90 NBA 0.010 (9)
1990-91 NBA 0.016 (12)
1991-92 NBA 0.019 (12)
1992-93 NBA 0.001 (10)
1993-94 NBA 0.001 (11)
1994-95 NBA 0.045 (8)
1995-96 NBA 0.011 (11)
1996-97 NBA 0.003 (15)
1997-98 NBA 0.004 (13)
2000-01 NBA 0.001 (15)
Career 0.161 (72)


He never finished higher than 7th in any given year.


A guy like Pettit won 2 MVP's. Lebron won 2 mvp's, Wade has a finals mvp, Dirk has a league and finals mvp. KG has a league mvp.

Lakersfan2483
08-02-2011, 05:57 PM
The only argument Stockton has is that he is the all time leader in assists and steals, but when you consider where he was in the MVP voting:

MVP Award Shares

1987-88 NBA 0.019 (10)
1988-89 NBA 0.033 (7)
1989-90 NBA 0.010 (9)
1990-91 NBA 0.016 (12)
1991-92 NBA 0.019 (12)
1992-93 NBA 0.001 (10)
1993-94 NBA 0.001 (11)
1994-95 NBA 0.045 (8)
1995-96 NBA 0.011 (11)
1996-97 NBA 0.003 (15)
1997-98 NBA 0.004 (13)
2000-01 NBA 0.001 (15)
Career 0.161 (72)


He never finished higher than 7th in any given year.


A guy like Pettit won 2 MVP's. Lebron won 2 mvp's, Wade has a finals mvp, Dirk has a league and finals mvp. KG has a league mvp.

:clap:

Lakersfan2483
08-02-2011, 06:02 PM
[QUOTE=Bruno87;18776905]Do any of the Stockton people feel like defending their votes?[/QUOTE


Agreed. Stock was a great player, but clearly not a top 20 player of all time. If they were voting for him in the top 30 to 35 range, it would be different. I would love to hear a legitimate argument for him being ahead of Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Garnett, Rick Barry, John Havlicek, Elvin Hayes, Elgin Baylor, Isaiah Thomas and Bob Petit. I could even argue Patrick Ewing being ahead of Stockton all time. A case could be made for Lebron James being ahead of Stockton as well.

NYKalltheway
08-02-2011, 06:03 PM
So Stockton playing against better players means nothing? :shrug:

Chronz
08-02-2011, 06:52 PM
So Stockton playing against better players means nothing? :shrug:

What was wrong with KG's competition?

Bruno
08-02-2011, 07:09 PM
So Stockton playing against better players means nothing? :shrug:

Better players?

RevisIsland
08-02-2011, 07:17 PM
I went with Scottie Pippen, people don't realize just how good he was.

LAKERMANIA
08-02-2011, 07:35 PM
I am starting to think the only reason people are voting is either A) Because they see who the majority is going for, or B) Because people are pissed that certain players got higher than others and are trying to get back at them by going for a random player at #18... Stock is good, but how David Robinson and Stockton are ranked higher than Mikan, Baylor, Pettit and Havlicek is truly beyond me

NBAfan4life
08-02-2011, 08:20 PM
I am starting to think the only reason people are voting is either A) Because they see who the majority is going for, or B) Because people are pissed that certain players got higher than others and are trying to get back at them by going for a random player at #18... Stock is good, but how David Robinson and Stockton are ranked higher than Mikan, Baylor, Pettit and Havlicek is truly beyond me

Mikan has no business being in the top 25 players of all time.

I voted KG, but I dont have a problem with Stockton going here. I value longevity and Stockton has it.

LAKERMANIA
08-02-2011, 08:31 PM
Mikan has no business being in the top 25 players of all time.
Reason? And what about Pettit? Baylor? Havlicek?


I voted KG, but I dont have a problem with Stockton going here. I value longevity and Stockton has it.

Yes lets value one thing and one thing only about a player and lets vote him above people who own him in any other category (counting accomplishments) besides assists and steals. Way to go.

Hellcrooner
08-02-2011, 10:02 PM
i wonder if Joe Di maio or babe ruth get the same amount of crap 50s and 60s players get in Nba forum...

i for sure know iv never heard in any soccer all time greats discussion say that " pele/ Cruyffj/Beckenbauer dont count because blah blah blah blah and competition, and blah blah blah, and todays players blah blah blah, and speed blah blah blah"

NBAfan4life
08-02-2011, 10:03 PM
Reason? And what about Pettit? Baylor? Havlicek?



Yes lets value one thing and one thing only about a player and lets vote him above people who own him in any other category (counting accomplishments) besides assists and steals. Way to go.


Pettit, Baylor, and Havlicek have legitimate arguments. If you need a reason why Mikan does not deserve to be mentioned in the top 25 re read this thread. I'm not going to rehash Mikan barely dominating midgets, or the fact he had a 7 year career only playing exceptional 4 or 5 years max.

Hellcrooner
08-02-2011, 10:24 PM
^ like a certain dude diidnt dominate until some other folks were either retired or completley worn out and his domination only lasted 6 years?¿?

Hellcrooner
08-02-2011, 10:39 PM
can someone tell me how many Mvps, how many rings, how many accolades, how many allstars etc did

7`7 manute bol 7`7 george muresan 7`6 shawn bradley and 7,4 ralph sampson get?

oh? how come they didnt dominate those "midgets" like

7´0 ewing 7,1 robinson 6,11 hakeem?

o yeah save me the answer ( because ewing, drob and keem were VERY Talented)

FLASH NEWS

Mikan was 6,10

Dolph schayes was 6,8 alex groza was 6, 7 and they were Very talented too.

The difference of proportion is smaller than in the modern dudes.

So? tell me

why are we not talking bout the great Bol vs Muresan rivalry for goat?

MTar786
08-02-2011, 10:42 PM
so a guy who was second fiddle all of his career and never won a ring while putting decent stats ( nothing extraordinary) is a top 20 player of all time ? lol

This

Stockton = extremely over rated

KG = HIGHLY under rated.

and just for the people who are hating on dirk. dirk is def somewhere between top 25 and 30 and will end his career at top 25 for sure

Hellcrooner
08-02-2011, 10:50 PM
This

Stockton = extremely over rated

KG = HIGHLY under rated.

and just for the people who are hating on dirk. dirk is def somewhere between top 25 and 30 and will end his career at top 25 for sure

entirely posible.

i recognise i may be a bit biased and drag him to 30-35 range but im humble enough to understand he my be 25-30 now and end higher than that.


but what im DAMM SURE is he is NOT top 20.

GhostfaceDrilla
08-03-2011, 01:39 AM
entirely posible.

i recognise i may be a bit biased and drag him to 30-35 range but im humble enough to understand he my be 25-30 now and end higher than that.


but what im DAMM SURE is he is NOT top 20.

No, I am DAMN SURE he is top 20 of all time. His game speaks for itself and proves it. He is a better shooter than 99% of all players who have ever played the game. He is one of the most clutch players to EVER play the game. Go look at his awards, his MVP, Finals MVP, Championship ring.

Dirk is a top 20 player of all time.

Hellcrooner
08-03-2011, 02:48 AM
No, I am DAMN SURE he is top 20 of all time. His game speaks for itself and proves it. He is a better shooter than 99% of all players who have ever played the game. He is one of the most clutch players to EVER play the game. Go look at his awards, his MVP, Finals MVP, Championship ring.

Dirk is a top 20 player of all time. do you realize if he had come into the league in the 80s whith diffenret rules bout hand checking and much fiercer defense being allowed he would have had trouble having a better career than fellow countrymen Detlef Schrempf?

beasted86
08-03-2011, 02:53 AM
No, I am DAMN SURE he is top 20 of all time. His game speaks for itself and proves it. He is a better shooter than 99% of all players who have ever played the game. He is one of the most clutch players to EVER play the game. Go look at his awards, his MVP, Finals MVP, Championship ring.

Dirk is a top 20 player of all time.

More and more, you easily lose credibility with the comments you make. It seems like you don't watch a lot of basketball and let your opinion do a lot of the fact seeking for you.

NYKalltheway
08-03-2011, 04:05 AM
Better players?

there's was a comment about his MVP award shares... Which basically = trash. That cannot be a mean of comparing players of different eras.

Competing against:

Michael Jordan (GOAT)
Karl Malone (his teammate, so chances get lower when the teammate is the receiver of the passes under the basket -> more points more savvy)
Hakeem Olajuwon (one of the best centers of all time)
Clyde Drexler (2nd best shooting guard after Michael Jordan)
Shaquille O'Neal (emerging best center)
David Robinson (one of the best two-way centers of all time)
Charles Barkley (one of the greatest PFs of all time)
Isiah Thomas (one of the best PGs of all time)
Larry Bird (best SF of all time)
Dominque Wilkins (best scoring SF of all time probably)
Magic Johnson (one of the best players of all time)
Kevin McHale
Shawn Kemp
Adrian Dantley
Fat Lever
Gary Payton
Patrick Ewing
Reggie Miller
Kevin Johnson
Terry Porter
Chris Mullin
Scottie Pippen
Horace Grant
Detlef Schrempf
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill (who was always good and consistent)
Tim Hardaway
Robert Parish
Mookie Blaylock
James Worthy
Dikembe Mutombo

Now tell me which modern player had better competition than Stockton during his career, who was also top 10 in Win Shares and Win Shares/48 minutes IN EVERY SINGLE SEASON he played....

That list is not the MVP candidates, just shows who some of the great players he faced were and how much tougher he had it than guys like Steve Nash for example who won 2 MVP awards.

You can't honestly sugges that others during their career faced better players, at any point. And MVP award shares is basically trash. You can't argue that Stockton not being a top 3 choice for MVP means he's not as good as a player who primed 15 years later....

Raps18-19 Champ
08-03-2011, 04:54 AM
I petition George Mikan to be off the list.

The guy can't play ball.

Bruno
08-03-2011, 05:12 AM
there's was a comment about his MVP award shares... Which basically = trash. That cannot be a mean of comparing players of different eras.

Competing against:

Michael Jordan (GOAT)
Karl Malone (his teammate, so chances get lower when the teammate is the receiver of the passes under the basket -> more points more savvy)
Hakeem Olajuwon (one of the best centers of all time)
Clyde Drexler (2nd best shooting guard after Michael Jordan)
Shaquille O'Neal (emerging best center)
David Robinson (one of the best two-way centers of all time)
Charles Barkley (one of the greatest PFs of all time)
Isiah Thomas (one of the best PGs of all time)
Larry Bird (best SF of all time)
Dominque Wilkins (best scoring SF of all time probably)
Magic Johnson (one of the best players of all time)
Kevin McHale
Shawn Kemp
Adrian Dantley
Fat Lever
Gary Payton
Patrick Ewing
Reggie Miller
Kevin Johnson
Terry Porter
Chris Mullin
Scottie Pippen
Horace Grant
Detlef Schrempf
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill (who was always good and consistent)
Tim Hardaway
Robert Parish
Mookie Blaylock
James Worthy
Dikembe Mutombo

Now tell me which modern player had better competition than Stockton during his career, who was also top 10 in Win Shares and Win Shares/48 minutes IN EVERY SINGLE SEASON he played....

That list is not the MVP candidates, just shows who some of the great players he faced were and how much tougher he had it than guys like Steve Nash for example who won 2 MVP awards.

You can't honestly sugges that others during their career faced better players, at any point. And MVP award shares is basically trash. You can't argue that Stockton not being a top 3 choice for MVP means he's not as good as a player who primed 15 years later....

Pippen and Stocktons MVP award share count is comparable. They played in the exact same era and are near the same age. Pippen competed against all the players you listed. Pippens MVP award share total is .716, with his highest ranking landing 3rd in '94. He still tallied MVP consideration despite playing in Jordans shadow, year in and year out. He finished top ten in MVP voting five times during the 90's. Stockton never finished higher than 7th, w a total award share count of .161. Comparing the MVP award share of players who played in the same era against the same players isn't as circumstantial as you say it is, IMO. During their era, the MVP award voters repeatedly ranked Pippen over Stockton. Mainly because of his D, IMO. Eight-time first defense, two time second team.

I could make a lengthy list of MVP caliber players that KG had to play against in his own era, like you did for Stockton. An era were he competed against some of the greatest PF's in NBA history. Top notch competition at his own position. He faced off against Malone, Duncan, Dirk, Gasol, Webber, Ben Wallace, ect.

NBAfan4life
08-03-2011, 07:06 AM
^ like a certain dude diidnt dominate until some other folks were either retired or completley worn out and his domination only lasted 6 years?¿?

I'm not sure who your referencing here, but a 7 year career and only dominate for a little over half does not make the list for ME. If this is the case were going to have to take a hard look at TMAC or LBJ if were taking that small of a window and I dont think they should be voted in yet either.

Mishmin
08-03-2011, 07:26 AM
Way to go John. You got my vote.

Of course with no Cousy, there is no Stockton.

m26555
08-03-2011, 10:19 AM
Not really sure how you can't say Garnett here.

JordansBulls
08-03-2011, 10:38 AM
i wonder if Joe Di maio or babe ruth get the same amount of crap 50s and 60s players get in Nba forum...

i for sure know iv never heard in any soccer all time greats discussion say that " pele/ Cruyffj/Beckenbauer dont count because blah blah blah blah and competition, and blah blah blah, and todays players blah blah blah, and speed blah blah blah"

No, Babe Ruth was voted #1 on the MLB all time greats.

GoPacers33
08-03-2011, 10:54 AM
Stockton

Raps18-19 Champ
08-03-2011, 12:57 PM
^ like a certain dude diidnt dominate until some other folks were either retired or completley worn out and his domination only lasted 6 years?¿?

43% shooting on players 5 inches shorter than him?

You call that piece of garbage dominating?

The guy sucked.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-03-2011, 01:01 PM
i wonder if Joe Di maio or babe ruth get the same amount of crap 50s and 60s players get in Nba forum...

i for sure know iv never heard in any soccer all time greats discussion say that " pele/ Cruyffj/Beckenbauer dont count because blah blah blah blah and competition, and blah blah blah, and todays players blah blah blah, and speed blah blah blah"

Babe and Joe were actually killing it though. They dominated in their era. Dominated so badly that players now can't even match them.

I still don't see 43% is dominating when you're 6'10" and you have guys who would play PG in today's game guarding you. When you have a minimum of a 5 inch advantage, you better be shooting 50%

The worse of chuckers shoot at that level and they aren't ever considered top 20. Even the greatest chucker of all time, Allen Iverson is not close to top 20.

Yet you have this garbage player getting votes for the 12th or 13th best player?

beasted86
08-03-2011, 01:23 PM
Babe and Joe were actually killing it though. They dominated in their era. Dominated so badly that players now can't even match them.

I still don't see 43% is dominating when you're 6'10" and you have guys who would play PG in today's game guarding you. When you have a minimum of a 5 inch advantage, you better be shooting 50%

The worse of chuckers shoot at that level and they aren't ever considered top 20. Even the greatest chucker of all time, Allen Iverson is not close to top 20.

Yet you have this garbage player getting votes for the 12th or 13th best player?

So basically you admit you never watched the guy play, and are only comparing their stat lines? Why even enter this thread if you can't give a legitimate opinion on how they compare?

I know I haven't watched nearly enough of a lot of these players, so I stay away from all-time ranking threads.

THE MTL
08-03-2011, 02:04 PM
Best Top 100 players list I've seen

http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ranking-top-100-players-in-nba-history.html

Agreed best list I ever seen

Hellcrooner
08-03-2011, 03:14 PM
Babe and Joe were actually killing it though. They dominated in their era. Dominated so badly that players now can't even match them.

I still don't see 43% is dominating when you're 6'10" and you have guys who would play PG in today's game guarding you. When you have a minimum of a 5 inch advantage, you better be shooting 50%

The worse of chuckers shoot at that level and they aren't ever considered top 20. Even the greatest chucker of all time, Allen Iverson is not close to top 20.

Yet you have this garbage player getting votes for the 12th or 13th best player?

if winning 5 rings in 7 tries and being the top scorer for basically his whole career isnt dominating.

and btw i want your answer to this previous post by me.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18784193&postcount=82

NYKalltheway
08-03-2011, 04:51 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwxI7UaRL_8

one hour video on NBA legends released in 2001