PDA

View Full Version : PSD's Official #17 NBA Player of All Time



JordansBulls
07-30-2011, 05:42 PM
RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.
NO POSTING in your FORUM, VOTE for this GUY. We had problems last time with it and NO POSTING in someone Else's Forum to VOTE for a certain player.


Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.


Voting for #16 has concluded and PSD's Official #15 NBA Player of all time is....

David Robinson


Top 3 Voters


David Robinson = 27 votes
George Mikan = 16 votes
Charles Barkley = 15 votes


The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)
16. David Robinson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638526)


Voting will now begin for the #17 NBA Player All Time


NOTE: You can only nominate one player and that player had to be an allstar multiple times at least probably at least 3 times at a minimum. The player who has the most nomination votes will be added to the next poll. Anyone who nominates more than one player there nomination will be disregarded.

JordansBulls
07-30-2011, 05:54 PM
I'm taking Bob Pettit now over Mikan. It's true Mikan won 5 titles in 7 years and is 2nd alltime in Playoff PER and Win Shares/PER 48 minutes, but the guy doesn't have the league MVP's. Pettit won the 1st MVP of the league and won another one with Russell in the league and actually beat the Celtics with Russell on it and it was the only series Russell lost with HCA. Now it is true that Russell missed a lot of the series, but here is a few details as well:


Look at the 1958 finals.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1958.htm

Pettit shot bad who shot 58/137 or 42% FG, but Russell shot even worse. He shot 17/49 for 35% FG as a Center in the finals and overall Russel shot 36% in the playoffs that year. People say it was defense, but when you look at every team, each one of these guys were pretty pathetic.



Pettit first 3 games

11-22
8-20
10-23


Russell first 3 games

4-15
7-15
4-12


Game 4 Russell missed and Pettit was 3-17. So Pettit was on lock once Russell was gone.

Game 5 Russell missed and Pettit was 7-21 that game.


Game 6 Russell comes back and Pettit was 19-34.


So yeah, Russell didn't really have an effect on Pettit.
In fact, Pettit played much much better when Russell was there.

So really can we say it was Russell who limited Pettit when Pettit only played bad when Russell didn't play?


Overall for Pettit when Russell played:

11-22
8-20
10-23
19-34

48%

Games in which Russell missed Pettit was:

3-17
7-21

26%


So yeah, the C's held down Pettit when Russell was gone. So maybe Russell gets too much credit for his defense than he should especially when you consider Pettit was the Center as well.

Also he led in PER 4x in a row.

Has 2 league MVP's as well.

THE MTL
07-30-2011, 06:17 PM
I'm taking Bob Pettit now over Mikan. It's true Mikan won 5 titles in 7 years and is 2nd alltime in Playoff PER and Win Shares/PER 48 minutes, but the guy doesn't have the league MVP's. Pettit won the 1st MVP of the league and won another one with Russell in the league and actually beat the Celtics with Russell on it and it was the only series Russell lost with HCA. Now it is true that Russell missed a lot of the series, but here is a few details as well:


Look at the 1958 finals.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1958.htm

Pettit shot bad who shot 58/137 or 42% FG, but Russell shot even worse. He shot 17/49 for 35% FG as a Center in the finals and overall Russel shot 36% in the playoffs that year. People say it was defense, but when you look at every team, each one of these guys were pretty pathetic.



Pettit first 3 games

11-22
8-20
10-23


Russell first 3 games

4-15
7-15
4-12


Game 4 Russell missed and Pettit was 3-17. So Pettit was on lock once Russell was gone.

Game 5 Russell missed and Pettit was 7-21 that game.


Game 6 Russell comes back and Pettit was 19-34.


So yeah, Russell didn't really have an effect on Pettit.
In fact, Pettit played much much better when Russell was there.

So really can we say it was Russell who limited Pettit when Pettit only played bad when Russell didn't play?


Overall for Pettit when Russell played:

11-22
8-20
10-23
19-34

48%

Games in which Russell missed Pettit was:

3-17
7-21

26%


So yeah, the C's held down Pettit when Russell was gone. So maybe Russell gets too much credit for his defense than he should especially when you consider Pettit was the Center as well.

Also he led in PER 4x in a row.

Has 2 league MVP's as well.

Thats why I think alot of these old school vets are overrated. How would a 6'9" skinny center hold up in today's terms when you can find SF's at that size.

Anyway, this should go to ISIAH THOMAS!!!!! Have ppl forget about him

alencp3
07-30-2011, 06:25 PM
Sir Charles > MIkan, Pettit and all the other pau gasols in the 50s/60s

DR_1
07-30-2011, 08:07 PM
Dirk here. The competition wasn't as good during Mikan's day.

VCaintdead17
07-30-2011, 08:10 PM
John Stockton

DR_1
07-30-2011, 08:13 PM
John Stockton

Shoot I forgot about him

Cavs_Fan24
07-30-2011, 09:32 PM
Stockton's definitely my pick here. One of the most consistent guards ever.

Lakersfan2483
07-30-2011, 10:22 PM
I am going with the Round Mound of Rebound, Charles Barkley. He should have been higher on the list for sure.

D-Will4Prez
07-30-2011, 11:08 PM
Stockton. His assist and steal records won't be broken for a looooong time.

Hellcrooner
07-30-2011, 11:17 PM
mikan again,.

im missing elvin hayes on the lsit.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-30-2011, 11:32 PM
Thats why I think alot of these old school vets are overrated. How would a 6'9" skinny center hold up in today's terms when you can find SF's at that size.

Anyway, this should go to ISIAH THOMAS!!!!! Have ppl forget about him

Isiah is overrated. The Pistons defense was a huge reason why they won back to back championships and it was their interior defense that was the real reason why.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-30-2011, 11:34 PM
mikan again,.

im missing elvin hayes on the lsit.

Did you not read any of the arguments against Mikan in the last thread?

I'd like you or someone else who voted for Mikan to counter them. And don't just come back with the same old "yeah but he was the reason the rules were changed". Good for him. He still dominated midgets compared to him AND for only 3 years. In addition, his career was 7 years long. Why not vote for Lebron if you're going to vote for Mikan? Their career was the same length.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-30-2011, 11:36 PM
tredigs, I know you've been campaigning for Pettit, so I'd like to hear a nice argument for him over Chuck (others voting would benefit from this too). I'll compliment that with some of my own research too.

Edit: A quick examination of the 57-58 St. Louis Hawks who won the title, and you can see that Pettit had some other very good players on that team. From a talent standpoint, Pettit's team appeared to be more talented than Barkley's 92-93 team that got to the Finals and lost to MJ's Bulls (can't fault Chuck for that).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/STL/1958.html

Cliff Hagan and Ed Macauley were pretty good. In fact, Hagan averaged more ppg in the playoffs and also contributed a double double. Hagan's advanced #'s were also through the roof. This quick glance brings up a good question, was Pettit even the best player in the playoffs that year? From the numbers, it doesn't look like it. In fact, it clearly looks like Hagan was better. Although, this ignores Pettit's contributions on the defensive end in helping stop Russell. And certainly, beating Russell's Celtics is a remarkable accomplishment. But considering Hagan was the best offensive player and there's a decent question of whether Pettit was the best player in the playoffs on his team, it makes me wonder if I should vote for him.

Compare this to Chuck on the 92-93 Suns who went up against a pretty formidable foe in the Finals and Chuck was clearly the best player on that team. He was also the MVP during the season. And he had some amazing games leading up to the Finals, including a 40 point triple double.

And Chronz, as for KJ as a legit #2, I think he falls far short of the standard #2's you see on a typical championship team. The comparables are probably Otis Thorpe on the Rockets (though he didn't play as much like a #2 in the playoffs), and I guess Terry on the Mavs. Actually, KJ's advanced playoff numbers in the 92-93 season weren't that good. In any case, typically most championship teams have either a HOFer as their #2 or at least a top 10-15 player at the time. I don't think KJ was either.

Also, the reason I was sort of neglecting the 2nd Rockets team that won a championship was because they were more talented and Hakeem certainly had more help on that team then the one the previous year. I'm certainly not trying to discredit him/that team but in terms of carrying teams without a great #2, the 2nd Rockets team doesn't really fit there.

Anyways, getting back to the whole Chuck vs. Pettit, I think its fairly obvious that Hagan was a much more legitimate #2 (if not #1) then KJ was. Although, I'm sure the 92-93 Suns were deeper. For what its worth though, that 57-58 Hawks team didn't finish with a very good SRS. Though, there were also only 8 teams in the league and the Hawks were clearly in the inferior division (not having to go through Syracuse).

And the legit claim that Hagan has to maybe being a #1 in the playoffs that year makes me question why I should put Pettit ahead of Chuck.

Edit: Thanks to JB's link: http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1958.htm#Game #1 3/29/58 @Boston

We can see how both Hagan and Pettit did in the Finals. Pettit put an absolute exclamation point on the series with an absolutely AMAZING performance in game 6. But guess what? Hagan was the better scorer before that game 6 and in fact, his overall shooting % numbers were better.

For the Finals:
Hagan- 44.2% FG%
Pettit- 42.3% FG%

Hagan- 56.3% TS%
Pettit- 51.5% TS%

And of course, this includes Pettit's phenomenal game 6 performance where he had 50 points against Bill Russell. I could certainly see an argument as to why Pettit was the better player in that playoff run but the fact that there is an argument has to make you question whether Pettit gets credit for winning a ring as the #1.

Edit #3: For what its worth, Pettit comes out behind Barkley in all of the numbers I calculated- best 3 seasons for PER and WS, best 5 consecutive seasons for PER and WS, career #'s for PER and WS, weighted playoff runs for PER and WS (with the best playoff runs with 500+ minutes weighted in) and best 10 consecutive seasons for WS. The only thing Pettit beat Barkley in was best 10 consecutive seasons for EWA, which was only 2 points higher in favor of Pettit, so basically no big deal.

So from a numbers standpoint, Barkley compares well to Pettit.

Hellcrooner
07-30-2011, 11:46 PM
Did you not read any of the arguments against Mikan in the last thread?

I'd like you or someone else who voted for Mikan to counter them. And don't just come back with the same old "yeah but he was the reason the rules were changed". Good for him. He still dominated midgets compared to him AND for only 3 years. In addition, his career was 7 years long. Why not vote for Lebron if you're going to vote for Mikan? Their career was the same length.

5 rings.
5 ****ing rings.
Hands down the best players of his era.
not even MJ has been able to get that the announcment of games was " mj vs the Knicks" like he did.
Like it or not he was the FACE of the league in his era.

How old was him when nba started? becaus eyou know, he had played pro before there was a league so arguing the 7 years is a total stupidity.

btw JB how the **** can you win an award that does nto exist when you are playing?

Had it exsited he woudl ahve 5 or 6.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-31-2011, 12:04 AM
5 rings.
5 ****ing rings.
Hands down the best players of his era.
not even MJ has been able to get that the announcment of games was " mj vs the Knicks" like he did.
Like it or not he was the FACE of the league in his era.

How old was him when nba started? becaus eyou know, he had played pro before there was a league so arguing the 7 years is a total stupidity.

btw JB how the **** can you win an award that does nto exist when you are playing?

Had it exsited he woudl ahve 5 or 6.

Mikan=Gasol=Crap

PatsSoxKnicks
07-31-2011, 12:21 AM
5 rings.
5 ****ing rings.
Hands down the best players of his era.
not even MJ has been able to get that the announcment of games was " mj vs the Knicks" like he did.
Like it or not he was the FACE of the league in his era.

How old was him when nba started? becaus eyou know, he had played pro before there was a league so arguing the 7 years is a total stupidity.

btw JB how the **** can you win an award that does nto exist when you are playing?

Had it exsited he woudl ahve 5 or 6.

You realize he dominated people who were like 4-5 inches shorter. Put it this way, it'd be like you playing basketball in a league with a bunch of 4th graders. Who do you think would win? Should you get credit for beating on a bunch of 4th graders? Hell no. Same goes for Mikan.

And statistically, he didn't even dominate for that long. He dominated for 3 years. After that, he was very good for another 2 years and bad in his last year.

You put Mikan in the league today and he's no different than your average PF.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-31-2011, 12:24 AM
You realize he dominated people who were like 4-5 inches shorter. Put it this way, it'd be like you playing basketball in a league with a bunch of 4th graders. Who do you think would win? Should you get credit for beating on a bunch of 4th graders? Hell no. Same goes for Mikan.

And statistically, he didn't even dominate for that long. He dominated for 3 years. After that, he was very good for another 2 years and bad in his last year.

You put Mikan in the league today and he's no different than your average PF.

6'10" shooting under 43% every season too.

Man didn't dominate ****.

Hellcrooner
07-31-2011, 12:43 AM
You realize he dominated people who were like 4-5 inches shorter. Put it this way, it'd be like you playing basketball in a league with a bunch of 4th graders. Who do you think would win? Should you get credit for beating on a bunch of 4th graders? Hell no. Same goes for Mikan.

And statistically, he didn't even dominate for that long. He dominated for 3 years. After that, he was very good for another 2 years and bad in his last year.

You put Mikan in the league today and he's no different than your average PF.

You put barry in nowdays nba and he does not dominate.

You put Dr j and he does not dominate.

In 20 years probably Magic, bird and Mj would not be able to dominate.( already have some doubts bout bird today)

do we take them down because of it?

PatsSoxKnicks
07-31-2011, 01:01 AM
You put barry in nowdays nba and he does not dominate.

You put Dr j and he does not dominate.

In 20 years probably Magic, bird and Mj would not be able to dominate.( already have some doubts bout bird today)

do we take them down because of it?

Ok, thats a fair point but what about the fact that Mikan still dominated midgets basically. Jordan dominated much tougher competition. Same goes for Magic, Bird, etc. Mikan dominated people much inferior to him.

Again, the 4th grade analogy works here. Should Mikan get credit for that? MJ didn't dominate people who were that far inferior to him physically, same goes for a lot of the other all-time greats. That's not the case with Mikan.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-31-2011, 01:09 AM
I went with Chuck. He's got better numbers and as I posted on the previous page, I find his run with the Suns to the Finals more impressive. He did it as the clear cut #1, that's not the case for Pettit. Hagan actually led that team in WS and PER in the playoffs. And I can't put Pettit ahead only because of his 50 point game in the final game. Hagan still shot better in the Finals. Competing for #1 led to a title over a great opponent vs. clear cut #1 led to the Finals and a 6 game loss against a great opponent. I'll go 2nd one, especially when the 2nd one has some better advanced #s.

However, I'd like to see someone make a compelling argument for maybe Pettit's defense being so superior as to make up for some of these other deficiencies vs. Chuck.

NBAfan4life
07-31-2011, 01:29 AM
I'm stuck between Stockton, Pettit, and Sir Charles. I think I will wait a day to vote.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-31-2011, 01:48 AM
I'm stuck between Stockton, Pettit, and Sir Charles. I think I will wait a day to vote.

Did you read my post on the last page in regards to Chuck vs. Pettit? I think I made a pretty good case for Chuck. Although, I guess you should wait for tredigs response, as I'm sure he'll come up with something insightful and persuasive.

As for Stockton, I addressed my own feelings on him in the last thread. I know I sort of lumped him with Karl but that duo IMO routinely underperformed. 2 losses to the GP + Kemp led Sonics and yet Malone + Stockton were the better duo. A loss to the Rockets led by Hakeem with Otis Thorpe as the #2. Stockton's advanced #'s also declined in the playoffs.

I certainly have nothing against Stockton though and I think he should go pretty soon. Just wouldn't take him over Chuck, who had a remarkable run to the Finals (which maybe I'm putting too much weight on)

tredigs
07-31-2011, 02:46 AM
Hah - this bio is hilariously "WHITE!", but still - learn about Bob Pettit you children! : )

I'm a spry *** athletic 26 yr old and I still am embarrassed by y'all.

tredigs
07-31-2011, 02:50 AM
Did you read my post on the last page in regards to Chuck vs. Pettit? I think I made a pretty good case for Chuck. Although, I guess you should wait for tredigs response, as I'm sure he'll come up with something insightful and persuasive.

As for Stockton, I addressed my own feelings on him in the last thread. I know I sort of lumped him with Karl but that duo IMO routinely underperformed. 2 losses to the GP + Kemp led Sonics and yet Malone + Stockton were the better duo. A loss to the Rockets led by Hakeem with Otis Thorpe as the #2. Stockton's advanced #'s also declined in the playoffs.

I certainly have nothing against Stockton though and I think he should go pretty soon. Just wouldn't take him over Chuck, who had a remarkable run to the Finals (which maybe I'm putting too much weight on)

I MAY have blacked out a short while ago. I'm known as an amazingly well constructed drunk tho', SO we'll see!

tredigs
07-31-2011, 03:03 AM
You put barry in nowdays nba and he does not dominate.

You put Dr j and he does not dominate.

In 20 years probably Magic, bird and Mj would not be able to dominate.( already have some doubts bout bird today)

do we take them down because of it?

A great player acclimates to his environment. I'll leave it at that.

On Barry's note, has a single player ever singe handedly won a 'Ship like him?

Brooklyn Mets
07-31-2011, 09:29 AM
cousy

Raps18-19 Champ
07-31-2011, 09:39 AM
I need to make a good argument for Lebron soon.

His game alone stands for top 15 consideration.

NYKalltheway
07-31-2011, 09:44 AM
I need to make a good argument for Lebron soon.

His game alone stands for top 15 consideration.

Not really. I'd take Willis Reed, Elvin Hayes and John Stockton ahead of him anytime. Then we got a bunch of other players that have a case over Lebron, but those 3 are enough to make you realize that he's not close to #15 (as of now)

NYKalltheway
07-31-2011, 09:46 AM
Nominating:

Elvin Hayes
Spencer Haywood
Bob Lanier
/

NBAfan4life
07-31-2011, 10:11 AM
Did you read my post on the last page in regards to Chuck vs. Pettit? I think I made a pretty good case for Chuck. Although, I guess you should wait for tredigs response, as I'm sure he'll come up with something insightful and persuasive.

As for Stockton, I addressed my own feelings on him in the last thread. I know I sort of lumped him with Karl but that duo IMO routinely underperformed. 2 losses to the GP + Kemp led Sonics and yet Malone + Stockton were the better duo. A loss to the Rockets led by Hakeem with Otis Thorpe as the #2. Stockton's advanced #'s also declined in the playoffs.

I certainly have nothing against Stockton though and I think he should go pretty soon. Just wouldn't take him over Chuck, who had a remarkable run to the Finals (which maybe I'm putting too much weight on)

I have been reading all of everybody's arguments. Out of those three I think I'm going Barkley, Stockton, and then Pettit.

PrettyBoyJ
07-31-2011, 10:48 AM
Rick Barry is flying under the radar.. Really underrated

JordansBulls
07-31-2011, 12:29 PM
I'm quite surprised by all the Stockton votes in all honestly. Didn't think he would be beating out Isiah by that much or even be ahead of guys like Dirk, KG, etc.

NYKalltheway
07-31-2011, 12:46 PM
I don't see why Isiah Thomas is considered that much better than Walt Frazier. Walt was an amazing rebounder and assistman as well as very good scorer, people seem to sleep on him a lot

todu82
07-31-2011, 01:58 PM
Charles Barkley.

ManningToTyree
07-31-2011, 02:09 PM
Sir Chuck for me. Stockton is a bit overrated imo. I cant speak on guys like Mikan.

Khalifa21
07-31-2011, 03:41 PM
Went with the round mound of rebound here..

mightybosstone
07-31-2011, 06:26 PM
I went with Barkley, who was my pick above Malone and Robinson. I really hope he takes this spot. Afterwards, I'm going with Pettit and Havlicek. I need to do a tad more research before I decide between the two, however.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-01-2011, 02:19 AM
Not really. I'd take Willis Reed, Elvin Hayes and John Stockton ahead of him anytime. Then we got a bunch of other players that have a case over Lebron, but those 3 are enough to make you realize that he's not close to #15 (as of now)

He' talented enough to make a case.

I bet he'd be a guaranteed top 5 player in any decade.

naps
08-01-2011, 02:41 AM
You put barry in nowdays nba and he does not dominate.

You put Dr j and he does not dominate.

In 20 years probably Magic, bird and Mj would not be able to dominate.( already have some doubts bout bird today)

do we take them down because of it?

Jordan would dominate in any league, at any level, even if it's 1000 years later. It's Michael ****ing Jordan we are talking about here.

GhostfaceDrilla
08-01-2011, 12:19 PM
Dirk here.

NBA Champion
NBA Finals MVP
NBA MVP
11 All NBA Teams (4 1st)
10x All Star
Over 21,000 career points, on pace to be at least top 10 in points scored all time
All time great clutch performer
Great shooting percentages
Beat the "Big 3" in the Finals where LeBron and Wade were expected to sweep them easily.


Mikan (Atticus Finch), Barkley, Stockton, and Garnett are the only other ones along with Dirk who have consideration for this pick

GoPacers33
08-01-2011, 02:09 PM
Mr Lebron James haha

Hellcrooner
08-01-2011, 03:06 PM
Jordan would dominate in any league, at any level, even if it's 1000 years later. It's Michael ****ing Jordan we are talking about here.

yeah yeah, drink some more gatorade whit your mc menu sitting watching space jam with you nikes on.

Chronz
08-01-2011, 03:32 PM
yeah yeah, drink some more gatorade whit your mc menu sitting watching space jam with you nikes on.

Even if that were the case, hes still right. Lots of players translate into any era, dont get mad because Mikan aint one of them. Hes the best player at a sport that somewhat resembled basketball but is essentially a juniors attempt

Hellcrooner
08-01-2011, 04:14 PM
Even if that were the case, hes still right. Lots of players translate into any era, dont get mad because Mikan aint one of them. Hes the best player at a sport that somewhat resembled basketball but is essentially a juniors attempt

Nah he just faced people like Dolph Schayes or Alex Groza.