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View Full Version : Go for it in 2012!!!



nithanyo
07-29-2011, 01:12 AM
I just saw this come up in one of the threads and had me thinking. I think 2012 is when we should make a run at it. We have arguably the best player in baseball. He is 30 and he probably has 4-6 good years left in him. Isn't the time now if we want to build a winner.

I don't want to rush the rebuilding or anything but isn't this team being built around Jose? Shouldn't we be good while he's young and productive?

Right now i think this team is fine from an offensive perspective. We can upgrade at second base, but i can live with Hill if we can't upgrade. We should bundle up some of the spects and get an ace, a closer and maybe even a a setup man. Personally i think thats all it takes for us to make up the 10 games between us and the yanks. It would be even more amazing if Rogers ante ups and gives us the money to get Darvish.

Bombtista
07-29-2011, 01:37 AM
I agree we should be making the post season push soon to try and make the best of Bautista as he is not getting any younger. Free Agency does offer a few starting arms but i think it would take 1 or 2 starters along with 2 or 3 extra solid bullpin arms to be in a position to win.

Some of those would need to be acquired through trades and we do have a lot of prospects to get these players ASAP. What about trading a guy like David Cooper? he really doesn't have a place on our team playing only first base and having Adam Lind play that position most games of the year. He is actually having a better year than Lawrie at triple A and could really get us a solid MLB ready pitcher.

Also im dreaming by saying this but imagine we still threw money at Fielder and have him DH for us. Something like that would make us the best offensive team in the AL east. Or at least equal to the likes of the Sox and yanks

Toxeryll
07-29-2011, 01:38 AM
"We're always going to value the Draft, Anthopoulos said. "It's always going to be important. But we need to try to shift it a little bit more to the big league club, and continue to try to augment and supplement with the Draft. But the focus will be more on the big league club."

After reading this quote, I think the rasmus trade was the turning point for the club. I agree with you that we should not waste bautista's best years. I really think we have the pieces to make a run next year but at the same time, the development of young players should be the main priority. IMO, we should not play veterans over the young guys or demote them when they struggle next year. While I don't expect AA to hand out big cash to big name free agents, I expect us to get at least one legit starter that can play in the AL EAST via any means. We got a strong farm so cost shouldnt be a problem.

Halladay
07-29-2011, 01:55 AM
With divisions likely changing I wouldn't be opposed to it. Problem is, we severely lack the quality pitching at this point. We need at least one more really good starter and pretty much an entire pen. The pen can be done pretty easily, finding that ace type starter though...I'm not even sure AA could pull that off without giving up more then most would like to see.

StayOnBoard
07-29-2011, 06:56 AM
With divisions likely changing I wouldn't be opposed to it. Problem is, we severely lack the quality pitching at this point. We need at least one more really good starter and pretty much an entire pen. The pen can be done pretty easily, finding that ace type starter though...I'm not even sure AA could pull that off without giving up more then most would like to see.

I suspect a Rajai Davis, FF, Rauch and Drabek trade for Felix in the near future :D

LOL

You're right though - finding a true Ace is the tough part - rebuilding the pen is easy. If we can get a guy to anchor the staff with Romero we'll be set. I also agree we should go for it in 2012 - good of time as any.

North Yorker
07-29-2011, 07:17 AM
With divisions likely changing I wouldn't be opposed to it. Problem is, we severely lack the quality pitching at this point. We need at least one more really good starter and pretty much an entire pen. The pen can be done pretty easily, finding that ace type starter though...I'm not even sure AA could pull that off without giving up more then most would like to see.

Which is why I think AA will target a good #3 or #4 SP this offseason when there aren't many legit aces available. Doug Fister or Liriano seem like possible targets...

Yes Ubaldo is available but the cost to get him is the same as it would take to get a Felix/Kershaw and Im not willing to pay that price in specs.

Here's a thought... Would Philly think about trading Hamels this offseason? They did the exact same thing with Lee the offseason before he hit FA. Re-signing Hamels(FA in 2013) would put the Phillies close to a $180M payroll, or they could trade him and replenish their farm.

Do a deal around Drabek or Snider (if he agrees to an extension then it may take Drabek AND Snider) for Hamels.

Hamels/Morrow/Romero is a GREAT top 3 that could match up with almost any rotation in baseball.

Nica
07-29-2011, 07:33 AM
Which is why I think AA will target a good #3 or #4 SP this offseason when there aren't many legit aces available. Doug Fister or Liriano seem like possible targets....

I really enjoyed watching Fister pitch against the Jays. He has some really nasty stuff. I recall watching him and thinking this poor guy needs a break from the lack of support and if he would make a great Jay.
He would make a very nice mid-rotation pitcher.

ILDD
07-29-2011, 07:39 AM
I agree in going for it in 2012, I'd just be a little cautious when talking about high end SP's.

What I'm afraid of is a long-term high money contract causing issues down the road. If you sign someone for 7 years then you create a bit of a log-jam at that position. In 2012 you look great but in 2013 and beyond you have Romero, Morrow & Cecil looking like locks. Add in Litsch, Drabek, Alvarez, Mills (?), McGowan (fingers crosssed), McGuire, Jenkins etc.

Maybe looking for a veteran with maye a year or 2 on his contract to eat some innings would be a more prudent use of money going forward.

North Yorker
07-29-2011, 07:46 AM
I agree in going for it in 2012, I'd just be a little cautious when talking about high end SP's.

What I'm afraid of is a long-term high money contract causing issues down the road. If you sign someone for 7 years then you create a bit of a log-jam at that position. In 2012 you look great but in 2013 and beyond you have Romero, Morrow & Cecil looking like locks. Add in Litsch, Drabek, Alvarez, Mills (?), McGowan (fingers crosssed), McGuire, Jenkins etc.

Maybe looking for a veteran with maye a year or 2 on his contract to eat some innings would be a more prudent use of money going forward.

If the goal is to make the playoffs, then we could probably get in by getting a mid rotation starter and a good CL.

If we wanted to be WS contenders, we would need that legit ace that can shut down the Yanks/Sox/Rangers/etc.

Hopefully Romero can develop into that ace next season.

Nels@Ryerson
07-29-2011, 08:05 AM
If the goal is to make the playoffs, then we could probably get in by getting a mid rotation starter and a good CL.

If we wanted to be WS contenders, we would need that legit ace that can shut down the Yanks/Sox/Rangers/etc.

Hopefully Romero can develop into that ace next season.

I think AA pretty much just put himself in that position... he really has to go for at least a play off spot...

the 7/8th inning guy could be casey janssen... he throws stricks... and pretty sure hes locked up for a couple more years


Trade for an Ace (trade either thames or snider) sign a closer (Papelbon) a 2B (Phillips) and a bat ( Fielder/veteran bat)

Macedonian
07-29-2011, 08:20 AM
Trade for an Ace (trade either thames or snider) sign a closer (Papelbon) a 2B (Phillips) and a bat ( Fielder/veteran bat)
That's it??? And nobody else?

Billyen
07-29-2011, 09:05 AM
I've been saying 2012 is the all-in year for a while. That's why I'm not concerned about the loses this year...I actually want loses to get under the 16th pick as I think AA will go after Fielder (he'll be great for 3-4 year then bust but, we'll need to pay him for 7). Our 1st round is protected if we are ranked 15th worst.

I mentioned this a while ago and most didn't like it but, I think it's the A move. Offer CC a knock out offer of 180/7 mil. My reasons are as follows.

-Everyone just assumes he'll take the 130 mil from the yanks because he loves them. CC can't knock a extra 50 mil.
-If we get him, we get 2 things. A true ACE that the will win 18+ and help the rest of the rotation. However, we take 18+ big wins away from the Yanks. This will hurt the Yanks and they just can't go and get another CC as their farms not than deep (no matter what BA says). AJ will be their ace and that won't work.
-Or We offer the 180 and the Yanks match it. We win here too. That will put a bit more strain on the Yanks as they can't pay everyone on the team 20-25 mill a year.

Again, Rogers says money's not a issue so here's their chance. We could see bad results near the end of the 7 years from CC and Fielder but, we'll get 3-4 good years. We have Jose for just 4 more years so let's do this now. These guys are winners and have did nothing but perform. 50 mil a year for 2 players is a lot but, it will get us to the WS.

KaiserSose
07-29-2011, 09:45 AM
I've been saying 2012 is the all-in year for a while. That's why I'm not concerned about the loses this year...I actually want loses to get under the 16th pick as I think AA will go after Fielder (he'll be great for 3-4 year then bust but, we'll need to pay him for 7). Our 1st round is protected if we are ranked 15th worst.

I mentioned this a while ago and most didn't like it but, I think it's the A move. Offer CC a knock out offer of 180/7 mil. My reasons are as follows.

-Everyone just assumes he'll take the 130 mil from the yanks because he loves them. CC can't knock a extra 50 mil.
-If we get him, we get 2 things. A true ACE that the will win 18+ and help the rest of the rotation. However, we take 18+ big wins away from the Yanks. This will hurt the Yanks and they just can't go and get another CC as their farms not than deep (no matter what BA says). AJ will be their ace and that won't work.
-Or We offer the 180 and the Yanks match it. We win here too. That will put a bit more strain on the Yanks as they can't pay everyone on the team 20-25 mill a year.

Again, Rogers says money's not a issue so here's their chance. We could see bad results near the end of the 7 years from CC and Fielder but, we'll get 3-4 good years. We have Jose for just 4 more years so let's do this now. These guys are winners and have did nothing but perform. 50 mil a year for 2 players is a lot but, it will get us to the WS.

Welcome back buddy! I thought you changed after your post a couple days ago!

Nels@Ryerson
07-29-2011, 10:42 AM
That's it??? And nobody else?

Dont know if you are being sarcastic.. but im sure we can fill up the bullpen with what we have in the minors... and those are major holes that we need to fill... plus.. we could resign some of the current pitchers...

bartron_44
07-29-2011, 10:45 AM
Lets see....Right now in 2012 we should have:

C- JPA
1B-Lind
2B-?
SS-Escobar
3B-Lawrie
LF-Snider/Thames
CF-Rasmus
RF-Bautista
DH-Thames/EE

Possible Rotation: Romero,Morrow,Cecil,McGowan,Drabek (2 big ?'s at this point...but possibly great if McGowan and Drabek can figure things out and stay healthy)


However, in 2013, we should have:

C-D'Arnaud/JPA
1B-Lind
2B-Hech
SS-Escobar
3B-Lawrie
LF-Rasmus
CF-Gose
RF-Bautista
DH-one of Snider/Thames/McDade

Rotation: best 5 of: Romero/Morrow/Cecil/Alvarez/Deck/Drabek/Hutchison/McGowan/Molina


I like our roster in 2013 with the possible additions of D'Arnaud, Hech, Alvarez, Deck and McDade. I really don't think we need much other then a shut down bullpen to go with that team in 2013 though. It should have great defense up the middle with D'Arnaud,Escobar,Hech and Gose, and there is a great combination of speed and power.

If Alvarez doesn't master a breaking pitch by the end of next year, we will turn him into a closer with that high 90's sinker and devastating changeup, and still have a great and deep rotation.

The guys I wouldn't mind seeing us trade are Snider (or Thames), Hill, Lind, Rauch, Litsch, Jenkins,Mills,Carreno, R.Gonzalez, Beck,Jimenez, C.Perez. We either have someone who already plays these guys' position in the show already, or we have someone coming right behind them that makes them expendable for the long term (i.e the existence of Gose,Loewen and Marisnick make Snider or Thames expendable in a favourable deal for the Jays.)

There is WAY more talent in that list of players then what we gave up to get solid young players like Escobar and Rasmus. I think AA could use them to obtain another potential all-star or 2, but either way I think the Jays will become yearly contenders by 2013. No need to rush it and give away the top prospects AA has spent the last year and half acquiring.

3mikee_
07-29-2011, 10:49 AM
Gotta spend the big bucks if we are gonna get anywhere in this division. I like the idea of throwing a crapload of money to CC... Is it not how we won our world series in the 90s? I believe we had the highest payroll in the league by far back then. But then again attendance was booming...

Gotta say though, Aaron Hill needs to get his act together...

North Yorker
07-29-2011, 11:13 AM
CC isnt leaving the Yanks. People have to understand that. No one will outbid them.

And plus if CJ Wilson made it to FA he's the SP we should be going after anyways.

Wilson's stats:
vs the Yankees (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/batvspitch/_/id/6311/teamId/10/cj-wilson)

vs the Red Sox (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/batvspitch/_/id/6311/teamId/2/cj-wilson)

vs the Rays (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/batvspitch/_/id/6311/teamId/30/cj-wilson)
He pretty much OWNS the AL East (except for us)

nithanyo
07-29-2011, 11:15 AM
I feel that if Felix hernandez is available AA should pay any price. As for the pen, I think that can be fixed easily through trades and FA signings

Billyen
07-29-2011, 12:25 PM
Welcome back buddy! I thought you changed after your post a couple days ago!

I thought you'd like that. Last week you said the Bartron was the main poster causing you physical pain from :facepalm:

I simply can't allow him to have that title.

Billyen
07-29-2011, 12:38 PM
CC isnt leaving the Yanks. People have to understand that. No one will outbid them.



That could be but, right now everyone is saying...120-130 mil. If no one bids more, than the Yanks will get him for that. If we bid 180 and the Yanks bid 181...they win....or do they?

It's a long shot I agree but, not impossible with AA flying. I like the idea of sending the farm to the M's for Felix- that's a hell of a arm. At the very least Wandy.R or Ubaldo.

The BP can be fixed in 2 trades...it's not important til the starters are punching.

1hardcore
07-29-2011, 12:48 PM
I really enjoyed watching Fister pitch against the Jays. He has some really nasty stuff. I recall watching him and thinking this poor guy needs a break from the lack of support and if he would make a great Jay.
He would make a very nice mid-rotation pitcher.

I agree... i dont care what his record is! His Slider is almost bugs bunny like to hitters !! He's also got a wicked 12-6 curve ball..

It's because the M's Lack of run production is why he's got that record...

I wouldnt mind having him on the jays team at all! mariners do need some hitting and the jays have got LOTS :)

mike_noodles
07-29-2011, 01:58 PM
I like the idea of going for it in 2012, since I think we're about ready. The only thing I don't want to do is to start giving up the farm for questionable talent (looking at you Ubaldo & Hunter). When AA gave his "freight train" quote, he was referring to having a well stocked farm when we begin our run so that when players decide that they're worth more than we believe they are, we can replace them with guys from the farm system for a lot less $$$ while hopefully maintaining a high level of play. So with all that being said, if we can give up a guy like Cooper straight for MLB ready pitching or sign a couple FA's, I think that is the way to go. I would really hate to see packages of 3-4 of our better specs for players that I wouldn't even take on a fantasy roster.