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JordansBulls
07-28-2011, 04:12 PM
RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.
NO POSTING in your FORUM, VOTE for this GUY. We had problems last time with it and NO POSTING in someone Else's Forum to VOTE for a certain player.


Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.


Voting for #15 has concluded and PSD's Official #15 NBA Player of all time is....

Julius Erving


Top 5 Voters


Julius Erving = 31 votes
David Robinson = 28 votes
George Mikan = 10 votes
John Stockton = 9 votes
Charles Barkley = 6 votes
Lebron James = 6 votes


The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)
12. Moses Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636033)
13. Jerry West (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636552)
14. Karl Malone (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636998)
15. Julius Erving (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637671)


Voting will now begin for the #16 NBA Player All Time


NOTE: You can only nominate one player and that player had to be an allstar multiple times at least probably at least 3 times at a minimum. The player who has the most nomination votes will be added to the next poll. Anyone who nominates more than one player there nomination will be disregarded.

J-Relo
07-28-2011, 04:22 PM
George Mikan.

phlp_bj
07-28-2011, 04:26 PM
admiral

Hellcrooner
07-28-2011, 04:29 PM
why is there no george iceman gervin on the list?

LAKERMANIA
07-28-2011, 05:02 PM
Mikan

JordansBulls
07-28-2011, 05:04 PM
why is there no george iceman gervin on the list?

Because he hasn't been nominated. And it doesn't mean if you nominated him that he is on the next list. The player who has the most votes for nomination is added to the list. Also there are 25 options right now

MR.CROW
07-28-2011, 05:18 PM
John Stockton, a 10-time NBA All-Star, commandingly holds the NBA record for career assists with 15,806 (10.5 per game). Stockton also holds the record for assists-per-game average over one season (14.5 in 1990), and is one of three players who have logged more than 1,000 assists in one season, joining Kevin Porter (1,099 in 1979) and Isiah Thomas (1,123 in 1985) in the exclusive list. Stockton did this seven times, with season totals of 1,164, 1,134, 1,128, 1,126, 1,118, 1,031 and 1,011 assists.
He and Karl Malone are regarded by many as the quintessential pick and roll duo. Apart from his passing skill, Stockton was also a capable scorer (13.1 points per game career average and a .515 career shooting percentage) with a reliable three-point shot (.384 lifetime average). He is 30th on the all-time NBA scoring list with 19,711 career points.Despite the fact that he never pulled down more than 9 rebounds (or recorded more than 9 steals) during a regular season game,
On defense, Stockton holds the NBA record for career steals with 3,265, nearly 30 percent more than second placed Michael Jordan, who had 2,514.
Stockton was known for his unassuming, no-nonsense approach to the game, hard-nosed defense, and fanatical work-ethic in preparation, which resulted in his extreme durability. He played 1,504 of 1,526 possible games in his 19-season career.I'll take the third best point gaurd over the eight best center any day

NBAfan4life
07-28-2011, 06:04 PM
John Stockton, a 10-time NBA All-Star, commandingly holds the NBA record for career assists with 15,806 (10.5 per game). Stockton also holds the record for assists-per-game average over one season (14.5 in 1990), and is one of three players who have logged more than 1,000 assists in one season, joining Kevin Porter (1,099 in 1979) and Isiah Thomas (1,123 in 1985) in the exclusive list. Stockton did this seven times, with season totals of 1,164, 1,134, 1,128, 1,126, 1,118, 1,031 and 1,011 assists.
He and Karl Malone are regarded by many as the quintessential pick and roll duo. Apart from his passing skill, Stockton was also a capable scorer (13.1 points per game career average and a .515 career shooting percentage) with a reliable three-point shot (.384 lifetime average). He is 30th on the all-time NBA scoring list with 19,711 career points.Despite the fact that he never pulled down more than 9 rebounds (or recorded more than 9 steals) during a regular season game,
On defense, Stockton holds the NBA record for career steals with 3,265, nearly 30 percent more than second placed Michael Jordan, who had 2,514.
Stockton was known for his unassuming, no-nonsense approach to the game, hard-nosed defense, and fanatical work-ethic in preparation, which resulted in his extreme durability. He played 1,504 of 1,526 possible games in his 19-season career.I'll take the third best point gaurd over the eight best center any day

Good post. It is getting tricky at this point, but pretty soon stockton will get my full support.

69centers
07-28-2011, 08:04 PM
why is there no george iceman gervin on the list?

I 2nd the nomination for Iceman to be on the next list.

Korman12
07-28-2011, 08:28 PM
Pettit or Robinson here.

mightybosstone
07-28-2011, 08:48 PM
Scottie Pippen deserves to be on this last before Gervin. It's ridiculous he isn't already on the list.

As for this vote, Mikan does not belong in the same conversation as some of these other players and I don't even think he belongs in the top 20. It was a completely different game when he played and there are easily a dozen players who fit better at this spot. People who are voting for him are looking solely at statistics without any context....

I wanted to vote Robinson until I saw his huge dropoff between his WS/48 in the regular season and the playoffs. Couple that with his infamous no show versus Hakeem in his "MVP" season and I can't in good conscience select him over Barkley.

Khalifa21
07-28-2011, 09:02 PM
I went with The Admiral last time round, so i'll go with him again.

Ebbs
07-28-2011, 09:33 PM
LeBron James
David Robinson
John Stockton
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Isiah Thomas

Mishmin
07-28-2011, 09:46 PM
I feel like due to the young nature of psd, there might be some older players that get slept on for guys we grew up watching. For example, already multiple votes for Iverson- 3, Cousy, Unseld, Reed, Sam Jones- 0. Guess that's just how it goes.

My vote here has to be Stockton though. Could be the best point guard ever. And although he didnt get the hardware, his numbers are still crushing.

mightybosstone
07-28-2011, 10:42 PM
It's sad how many votes there are for Mikan and how few there are for MUCH better players who came right after he left like Pettit, Baylor and Havlicek. If you vote for Mikan, I really think you better be able to back up that argument.

MTar786
07-28-2011, 11:07 PM
kg should be voted in pretty soon. I say after robinson but before barkley

tredigs
07-28-2011, 11:28 PM
It's sad how many votes there are for Mikan and how few there are for MUCH better players who came right after he left like Pettit, Baylor and Havlicek. If you vote for Mikan, I really think you better be able to back up that argument.

Agreed - the only vote for him this high is if you value his transcendence of the game more than true talent. He was simply a giant in a small man's game. Skilled player, but by all accounts could not hold a candle to the greats who came soon after.

I will say one thing about the modern game in contrast to yesteryear that absolutely favors those in the past. Fundamental basketball knowledge. The biggest problem with modern bigs is that they are chalk full of size/athleticism, but are by and large so fundamentally weak and/or raw that even a smaller, less athletic player who dominated in his day would absolutely dismantle them in a 5v5 game. As convenient as it is to think even an average big in 2011 NBA would handle the greats of the past, everybody who's played even mid-level basketball knows this is not the case. We've all played against/dominated guys that were stronger and more athletic than us by simply being better players.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-28-2011, 11:29 PM
I wanted to vote Robinson until I saw his huge dropoff between his WS/48 in the regular season and the playoffs. Couple that with his infamous no show versus Hakeem in his "MVP" season and I can't in good conscience select him over Barkley.

A very valid point, however, there's one big difference between Barkley and Robinson. Defense. I've heard Barkley was a decent defender but nothing great. Robinson was a great defender- won DPOY, led the league in DRtg 5 times, etc. and I think you couple that with the fact that Robinson had a better prime/peak and you have a pretty good case for him. In addition, how much did Robinson's defense slip in the playoffs? I'm not talking about vs. Hakeem (which was 1 series), I'm talking overall.

Anyways, this is what separates the 2 for me. DRob has the better prime/peak and is a much much better defender. Barkley performed better in the postseason (including some incredible games and taking the Suns to the Finals with a meh team). Longevity is relatively even. Barkley played 2 more seasons, which of course DRob lost to the Navy, can't really knock him for that. So it comes down to peak/prime performance + incredible D vs. better playoff performance. Barkley was good in the playoffs but not so superior enough to take him over the guy with the better D + peak/prime.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-28-2011, 11:35 PM
Who are these bums that vote for Mikan?

PatsSoxKnicks
07-28-2011, 11:47 PM
Can someone who voted for Mikan explain WHY? I see a lot of votes for him but no one explaining their reasoning. Yeah, yeah, he changed the game. Rules were invented for him. Good for him. He also played 7 years in the league, which is the career length of one Lebron James. If you're going to consider Mikan, why aren't you considering Lebron, who's had a MUCH longer peak/prime. Mikan dominated for 3 seasons and those 3 dominant seasons were against guys who were 4-5 inches shorter than him. He had another 2-3 very good years and his last year was average, if that. Lebron has had a better career than that and he's dominated much better competition too. So again, I ask WHY are people voting for Mikan? Just because he got rules changed for him? Well, of course that was going to happen eventually.

I went through basketball-references HOF database and found the average career for a HOFer was roughly around 13 years. Mikan played HALF of that basically. And whats so impressive about dominating people who aren't remotely close to your height?

mightybosstone
07-29-2011, 12:05 AM
Can someone who voted for Mikan explain WHY? I see a lot of votes for him but no one explaining their reasoning. Yeah, yeah, he changed the game. Rules were invented for him. Good for him. He also played 7 years in the league, which is the career length of one Lebron James. If you're going to consider Mikan, why aren't you considering Lebron, who's had a MUCH longer peak/prime. Mikan dominated for 3 seasons and those 3 dominant seasons were against guys who were 4-5 inches shorter than him. He had another 2-3 very good years and his last year was average, if that. Lebron has had a better career than that and he's dominated much better competition too. So again, I ask WHY are people voting for Mikan? Just because he got rules changed for him? Well, of course that was going to happen eventually.

I went through basketball-references HOF database and found the average career for a HOFer was roughly around 13 years. Mikan played HALF of that basically. And whats so impressive about dominating people who aren't remotely close to your height?

Agreed. And that's not even considering the fact that the shot clock wasn't adopted by the NBA until 1954, well after Mikan was a dominant player. It was a completely different game. And his WS/48 minutes are high, but look at his efficiency. He never shot better than 43 percent from the floor even though he was significantly taller than 90 percent of the players in the league.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-29-2011, 12:35 AM
Can someone who voted for Mikan explain WHY? I see a lot of votes for him but no one explaining their reasoning. Yeah, yeah, he changed the game. Rules were invented for him. Good for him. He also played 7 years in the league, which is the career length of one Lebron James. If you're going to consider Mikan, why aren't you considering Lebron, who's had a MUCH longer peak/prime. Mikan dominated for 3 seasons and those 3 dominant seasons were against guys who were 4-5 inches shorter than him. He had another 2-3 very good years and his last year was average, if that. Lebron has had a better career than that and he's dominated much better competition too. So again, I ask WHY are people voting for Mikan? Just because he got rules changed for him? Well, of course that was going to happen eventually.

I went through basketball-references HOF database and found the average career for a HOFer was roughly around 13 years. Mikan played HALF of that basically. And whats so impressive about dominating people who aren't remotely close to your height?

Thank you.

The guy was a great father of altering basketball as it is today. But his game doesn't deserve anywhere near top 50 IMO.

JasonJohnHorn
07-29-2011, 12:42 AM
No love for the little guys on this list eh?

JasonJohnHorn
07-29-2011, 12:46 AM
John Stockton, a 10-time NBA All-Star, commandingly holds the NBA record for career assists with 15,806 (10.5 per game). Stockton also holds the record for assists-per-game average over one season (14.5 in 1990), and is one of three players who have logged more than 1,000 assists in one season, joining Kevin Porter (1,099 in 1979) and Isiah Thomas (1,123 in 1985) in the exclusive list. Stockton did this seven times, with season totals of 1,164, 1,134, 1,128, 1,126, 1,118, 1,031 and 1,011 assists.
He and Karl Malone are regarded by many as the quintessential pick and roll duo. Apart from his passing skill, Stockton was also a capable scorer (13.1 points per game career average and a .515 career shooting percentage) with a reliable three-point shot (.384 lifetime average). He is 30th on the all-time NBA scoring list with 19,711 career points.Despite the fact that he never pulled down more than 9 rebounds (or recorded more than 9 steals) during a regular season game,
On defense, Stockton holds the NBA record for career steals with 3,265, nearly 30 percent more than second placed Michael Jordan, who had 2,514.
Stockton was known for his unassuming, no-nonsense approach to the game, hard-nosed defense, and fanatical work-ethic in preparation, which resulted in his extreme durability. He played 1,504 of 1,526 possible games in his 19-season career.I'll take the third best point gaurd over the eight best center any day

I felt like I was reading one of my own posts. lol. Only difference is I would have referred to him as the best pure point guard to ever play the game, rather than the third best, but I see where you're coming from.

JasonJohnHorn
07-29-2011, 12:48 AM
Can someone who voted for Mikan explain WHY? I see a lot of votes for him but no one explaining their reasoning. Yeah, yeah, he changed the game. Rules were invented for him. Good for him. He also played 7 years in the league, which is the career length of one Lebron James. If you're going to consider Mikan, why aren't you considering Lebron, who's had a MUCH longer peak/prime. Mikan dominated for 3 seasons and those 3 dominant seasons were against guys who were 4-5 inches shorter than him. He had another 2-3 very good years and his last year was average, if that. Lebron has had a better career than that and he's dominated much better competition too. So again, I ask WHY are people voting for Mikan? Just because he got rules changed for him? Well, of course that was going to happen eventually.

I went through basketball-references HOF database and found the average career for a HOFer was roughly around 13 years. Mikan played HALF of that basically. And whats so impressive about dominating people who aren't remotely close to your height?

Ah-men!

And who is the hottie in your sig? GREAT legs!

tredigs
07-29-2011, 12:57 AM
A stockton choice is debatable from Malone's spot forward. He goes top 3 in any "Most Consistently Great" list.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-29-2011, 01:03 AM
16. David Robinson
17. John Stockton
18. Charles Barkley
19. Elgin Baylor
20. Lebron James

That's my voting order till the 20th.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-29-2011, 01:35 AM
16. David Robinson
17. John Stockton
18. Charles Barkley
19. Elgin Baylor
20. Lebron James

That's my voting order till the 20th.

I'd probably flop Barkley and Stockton, who saw a decent dip in performance in the playoffs.

One of the reasons why that Stockton & Malone duo that played for almost 20 years wasn't more successful was because of a dip in performance for both of them in the playoffs. Stockton's WS/48 went down about 50 points from regular season to playoffs. Malone's was around 70 points.

Haven't done enough analysis on Elgin Baylor to know where I'd rank him.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-29-2011, 01:48 AM
I'd probably flop Barkley and Stockton, who saw a decent dip in performance in the playoffs.

One of the reasons why that Stockton & Malone duo that played for almost 20 years wasn't more successful was because of a dip in performance for both of them in the playoffs. Stockton's WS/48 went down about 50 points from regular season to playoffs. Malone's was around 70 points.

Haven't done enough analysis on Elgin Baylor to know where I'd rank him.

Yea 17 and 18 was interchangeable.

As is 19 and 20.

Though I'm starting to doubt Baylor TBH.

tredigs
07-29-2011, 01:50 AM
I'd probably flop Barkley and Stockton, who saw a decent dip in performance in the playoffs.

One of the reasons why that Stockton & Malone duo that played for almost 20 years wasn't more successful was because of a dip in performance for both of them in the playoffs. Stockton's WS/48 went down about 50 points from regular season to playoffs. Malone's was around 70 points.

Haven't done enough analysis on Elgin Baylor to know where I'd rank him.

Less analysis (statistically/WS wise), more interviews/video! (which I know you are and/or were actively trying to up in your increasing repertoire). I love your contributions - love them, but I want more subjective analysis based on non-advanced stats. Bottom line is that the history of the stats and the game in general flat out don't afford us the same linear conclusions that a game like baseball does (and even then, you know how convoluted and abstract the stats get when we're looking at dead-ball era, steroid era, etc.). Basketball just isn't that game that can be told simply in numbers - especially <1970.

GREATNESS ONE
07-29-2011, 02:00 AM
I didn't vote Mikan because I thought he was the best player on the board or even believe he is a top 50 talent. I voted Mikan here for what he brought to the game and how I respect my history and a game I love since I was little. Mikan deserves to be in the top 20 no matter what anyone on this forum says. Knocking a player for dominating a Era of basketball in his time is ridiculous. Having rules changed because of how dominant he was in the Era and his time, Mr Basketball was the first of his kind. Yes he only played 7 years but in those 7 years he won 5 championships and Led his team to the first Dynasty. The man was a Pioneer and a founding father, He gets my respect and my vote.

Chronz
07-29-2011, 02:00 AM
16. David Robinson
17. John Stockton
18. Charles Barkley
19. Elgin Baylor
20. Lebron James

That's my voting order till the 20th.
Good list

Lakersfan2483
07-29-2011, 02:02 AM
This spot definitely has to be for the round mound of rebound, Charles Barkley. In his prime, he was a flat out monster. Tremendous rebounder for his size and extremely talented power forward. Very impactful player and deserves to be in the top 20 for sure. I voted for him at no. 15.

Lakersfan2483
07-29-2011, 02:04 AM
Scottie Pippen and George Gervin belong on the list.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-29-2011, 02:18 AM
Good list

Think Lebron deserves to be in the top 20?

For me, his game alone makes him arguably top 15.

naps
07-29-2011, 02:22 AM
Charles Barkley is being underrated here. The dude was a beast in his prime and one of the greatest rebounders in the game history.

GREATNESS ONE
07-29-2011, 02:24 AM
Charles Barkley is being underrated here. The dude was a beast in his prime and one of the greatest rebounders in the game history.

You're right, Love Chuck as a player. He definitely should go soon on this poll.

GREATNESS ONE
07-29-2011, 02:25 AM
Scottie Pippen and George Gervin belong on the list.

Yes they do.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-29-2011, 02:32 AM
Less analysis (statistically/WS wise), more interviews/video! (which I know you are and/or were actively trying to up in your increasing repertoire). I love your contributions - love them, but I want more subjective analysis based on non-advanced stats. Bottom line is that the history of the stats and the game in general flat out don't afford us the same linear conclusions that a game like baseball does (and even then, you know how convoluted and abstract the stats get when we're looking at dead-ball era, steroid era, etc.). Basketball just isn't that game that can be told simply in numbers - especially <1970.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you, nor was I trying to imply that you should only use stats to judge a player. Context definitely needs to be taken into account. As I said, I am trying to watch more of these guys from various Finals games/anything I can find on the internet (although, I've been more busy of late, so that's taken a back seat to finding a place to live). And even in that thread I created in the Stats Forum (or in the post (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18595784&postcount=34) in the list of greatest players of all-time tread that JB created), I flat out said that its more of a statistical snapshot yet may be almost utterly useless, as some of the results make no sense. And all I really proved with that exercise was that a lot of players were close numbers wise, which doesn't really help. So ultimately, perhaps a rather useless exercise but still something I enjoyed doing so I don't mind too much (plus others had asked me to do it out for some other players, so that may be the only reason I ended up continuing with that thread).

And as I had pointed out to you, I didn't even really trust the WS/PER numbers before 1970. I'm still not sure whether to trust them (need to do some more digging). They seem to fly against my general perception. Wilt was a monster but Russell's numbers are very underwhelming, especially considering blocks weren't recorded back then. Oscars #'s seem inflated and probably are.

The post you quoted was short on any sort of analysis/context but my reasoning for taking Chuck was more then just WS/48 numbers. How about the fact that in the 92-93 season, his first in Phoenix, Chuck took a largely average to good cast to the Finals (which included Marerle, Ainge, Kevin Johnson, etc.). They had a very nice deep team but no true #2 threat. Taking a break from the advanced stats- no one on that team averaged over 17 ppg in the regular season and Chuck was the only player to average more then 5.5 rebounds. Obviously, some of those guys upped their performance in the playoffs, like Kevin Johnson but still, to take that team to the Finals is pretty remarkable. And this is all in his 1st season in Phoenix mind you. He picks up and leaves Philly, where he had been for what 7 years? Goes to Phoenix, and carries them to the Finals.

And he had some damn amazing performances on that run. How about the famous triple double game? 43-15-10 while shooting 73%. Or his game 7 performance against the Sonics- legendary. 44 and 24. Wow. Even in the Finals, where his team lost to the clearly more talented Bulls, he still had some great performances. AND this all came in his MVP season. I mean what a season.

Does Stockton have anything that resembles this? I realize you're talking about 2 very different players. But I feel like that Stockton-Malone duo exceeded their actual physical talents, meaning that playing together for nearly 20 years and developing legendary chemistry led to increased numbers for both. Despite all of that, they got to 2 Finals (which is no small accomplishment, but for a pair of top 20 players all-time, how does that rate?).

Stockton may be the greatest passer to ever live, aside from Magic but could he carry a team the way Chuck did in 92-93? That alone would make me consider him over DRob but as I said before, I don't think you can ignore Robinson's defense, which is why I'm sticking with him here.

Anyways, I probably should've expanded on that other post. It did come across as way to numbers centric.

tredigs
07-29-2011, 02:59 AM
Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you, nor was I trying to imply that you should only use stats to judge a player. Context definitely needs to be taken into account. As I said, I am trying to watch more of these guys from various Finals games/anything I can find on the internet (although, I've been more busy of late, so that's taken a back seat to finding a place to live). And even in that thread I created in the Stats Forum (or in the post in the list of greatest players of all-time tread that JB created), I flat out said that its more of a statistical snapshot yet may be almost utterly useless, as some of the results make no sense. And all I really proved with that exercise was that a lot of players were close numbers wise, which doesn't really help. So ultimately, perhaps a rather useless exercise but still something I enjoyed doing so I don't mind too much.

And as I had pointed out to you, I didn't even really trust the WS/PER numbers before 1970. I'm still not sure whether to trust them (need to do some more digging). They seem to fly against my general perception. Wilt was a monster but Russell's numbers are very underwhelming, especially considering blocks weren't recorded back then. Oscars #'s seem inflated and probably are.

The post you quoted was short on any sort of analysis/context but my reasoning for taking Chuck was more then just WS/48 numbers. How about the fact that in the 92-93 season, his first in Phoenix, Chuck took a largely average to good cast to the Finals (which included Marerle, Ainge, Kevin Johnson, etc.). They had a very nice deep team but no true #2 threat. Taking a break from the advanced stats- no one on that team averaged over 17 ppg in the regular season and Chuck was the only player to average more then 5.5 rebounds. Obviously, some of those guys upped their performance in the playoffs, like Kevin Johnson but still, to take that team to the Finals is pretty remarkable. And this is all in his 1st season in Phoenix mind you. He picks up and leaves Philly, where he had been for what 7 years? Goes to Phoenix, and carries them to the Finals.

And he had some damn amazing performances on that run. How about the famous triple double game? 43-15-10 while shooting 73%. Or his game 7 performance against the Sonics- legendary. 44 and 24. Wow. Even in the Finals, where his team lost to the clearly more talented Bulls, he still had some great performances. AND this all came in his MVP season. I mean what a season.

Does Stockton have anything that resembles this? I realize you're talking about 2 very different players. But I feel like that Stockton-Malone duo exceeded their actual physical talents, meaning that playing together for nearly 20 years and developing legendary chemistry led to increased numbers for both. Despite all of that, they got to 2 Finals (which is no small accomplishment, but for a pair of top 20 players all-time, how does that rate?).

Stockton may be the greatest passer to ever live, aside from Magic but could he carry a team the way Chuck did in 92-93? That alone would make me consider him over DRob but as I said before, I don't think you can ignore Robinson's defense, which is why I'm sticking with him here.

Anyways, I probably should've expanded on that other post. It did come across as way to numbers centric.

Great post bud.

There's no denying Chuck's dominance, and you could easily argue his place in the top 15 depending on your criteria - and like you mentioned i- Charles was as good as anybody in the NBA. Including Hakeem/Jordan.

There was a reason why Magic called Charles "The best player... in all those games", concerning the 1992 OG Dream Team in Magic's commencement speech. The talent of the early 90's was insane, but Barkley stood out as much as anybody.

Yikes - these votes are tough - Pettit/Barkley/Stockton/Baylor/Robinson... a few more... all the arguments are there.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-29-2011, 03:14 AM
I suppose if you go off playoff performance you got to give it to Chuck over DRob. But Robinson had some pretty average talent around him. Terry Cummings in the first couple years along with Sean Elliot, who was pretty consistently good with the Spurs. Then Rodman for 2 years but he obviously doesn't provide the scoring punch. Avery Johnson as a decent PG but again, lack of scoring punch. It was only until Duncan arrived when he finally got legit help.

I think there's a great case to be made that Robinson had less help than Chuck. Although, Robinson wasn't able to carry a team to the Finals like Chuck. But neither had a ton of help in their prime. How does Elliot, Cummings, Avery Johnson stack up to Majerle, Ainge, Kevin Johnson? I suppose not much of a difference.

Edit: Thats actually the wrong comparison since those 3 Spurs players were never good at the same time. And if I were to refer to overall talent, Chuck did play with an old Dr. J and Moses.

Still, as an overall player, you have to give it to the guy who was a stud defensively.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-29-2011, 03:20 AM
Great post bud.

There's no denying Chuck's dominance, and you could easily argue his place in the top 15 depending on your criteria - and like you mentioned i- Charles was as good as anybody in the NBA. Including Hakeem/Jordan.

There was a reason why Magic called Charles "The best player... in all those games", concerning the 1992 OG Dream Team in Magic's commencement speech. The talent of the early 90's was insane, but Barkley stood out as much as anybody.

Yikes - these votes are tough - Pettit/Barkley/Stockton/Baylor/Robinson... a few more... all the arguments are there.

Speaking of Hakeem/Chuck, how are their careers viewed if Chuck and his band of misfits faced the Knicks and Hakeem plus his misfit gang faced the Bulls? I suspect the Bulls would've beaten the Rockets, although there's no way to know for sure. And I think Chuck's Suns could've beaten the Knicks (as painful as that was for me to say). So essentially, you have a flip flopped scenario. I would imagine their careers could be viewed pretty differently.

The talent in the early 90s really was great. Most talented point in the league? Not sure but an interesting question.

tredigs
07-29-2011, 03:30 AM
Speaking of Hakeem/Chuck, how are their careers viewed if Chuck and his band of misfits faced the Knicks and Hakeem plus his misfit gang faced the Bulls? I suspect the Bulls would've beaten the Rockets, although there's no way to know for sure. And I think Chuck's Suns could've beaten the Knicks (as painful as that was for me to say). So essentially, you have a flip flopped scenario. I would imagine their careers could be viewed pretty differently.

The talent in the early 90s really was great. Most talented point in the league? Not sure but an interesting question.

To me? Not oven close. That's the apex of the NBA by quite a wide margin.

I think Hakeem+Clyde edge the '95 Finals with or without Jordan, but g'damn what I would've paid to see it..

PatsSoxKnicks
07-29-2011, 03:40 AM
Just one more point that should be looked at (anyone up for it?): Stockton and Malone are both either top 20 or top 25 players all-time. Now over the entire NBA history, there have obviously been a number of pairings between HOF players/top 25 players. On PSD's top 10 list alone, you have Shaq + Kobe, and Magic + Kareem. There's obviously many more.

However, whats the average success rate of a type of pairing between 2 top 25 players? I would imagine most of them, or almost all of them end up with a ring right? Kobe + Shaq had 3. Duncan + Robinson (an older one though) had 2 (although it might not be fair to count the one in 03 since Robinson was in his last year and clearly not top 25 player all-time level anymore). Magic + Kareem won 5. Moses and Dr. J won 1. etc.

Anyways, are Stockton and Malone the only pair of all-time greats to go ringless when paired with another top 25 player of all-time? I realize its very unfair to the duo in that they had to face MJ's Bulls but still, are they the only ringless pair?

If so, should that perhaps be a knock on them. For me, it could be. Although playing the Bulls makes it less so.

Anyways, food for thought. If anyone is interested in doing this out for each pair, that'd be really interesting to see. If I have time tomorrow, I might do it (though I probably won't have any time).

PatsSoxKnicks
07-29-2011, 03:45 AM
To me? Not oven close. That's the apex of the NBA by quite a wide margin.

I think Hakeem+Clyde edge the '95 Finals with or without Jordan, but g'damn what I would've paid to see it..

Sorry, wasn't clear. I meant the Rockets team that won without Clyde, the 94 Finals team.

That's more comparable from a talent standpoint to the Suns team in 92-93. So switch the Finals opponents. 94 Rockets face the MJ + Pippen led Bulls, Suns face the Knicks. I think its reasonable to expect Bulls and the Suns in both series right?

tredigs
07-29-2011, 03:49 AM
Just one more point that should be looked at (anyone up for it?): Stockton and Malone are both either top 20 or top 25 players all-time. Now over the entire NBA history, there have obviously been a number of pairings between HOF players/top 25 players. On PSD's top 10 list alone, you have Shaq + Kobe, and Magic + Kareem. There's obviously many more.

However, whats the average success rate of a type of pairing between 2 top 25 players? I would imagine most of them, or almost all of them end up with a ring right? Kobe + Shaq had 3. Duncan + Robinson (an older one though) had 2 (although it might not be fair to count the one in 03 since Robinson was in his last year and clearly not top 25 player all-time level anymore). Magic + Kareem won 5. Moses and Dr. J won 1. etc.

Anyways, are Stockton and Malone the only pair of all-time greats to go ringless when paired with another top 25 player of all-time? I realize its very unfair to the duo in that they had to face MJ's Bulls but still, are they the only ringless pair?

If so, should that perhaps be a knock on them. For me, it could be. Although playing the Bulls makes it less so.

Anyways, food for thought. If anyone is interested in doing this out for each pair, that'd be really interesting to see. If I have time tomorrow, I might do it (though I probably won't have any time).

Long story short, it's really, really tough to hate on that team - but it's a fair stance.

In one hand, very fair to discount their legacies on account of never taking home the hardware. But, on the OTHER hand? We find ourselves with the Showtime Lakers followed by Prime Jordan's Bulls. Intersperse a touch of Hakeem's Rocket's and Duncan's early prime Spurs? Yikes. Sorry, John. No soup for you!

NYKalltheway
07-29-2011, 03:51 AM
Havlicek here

PatsSoxKnicks
07-29-2011, 03:59 AM
Long story short, it's really, really tough to hate on that team - but it's a fair stance.

In one hand, very fair to discount their legacies on account of never taking home the hardware. But, on the OTHER hand? We find ourselves with the Showtime Lakers followed by Prime Jordan's Bulls. Intersperse a touch of Hakeem's Rocket's and Duncan's early prime Spurs? Yikes. Sorry, John. No soup for you!

But the 94 Rockets? They actually played that year. 4-1 in favor of the Rockets. Hakeem vs. Stockton and Malone and Hakeem's team came out on top. I realize it's not just Hakeem vs. those 2 but that 94 Rockets team is widely recognized as one of the lesser talented teams to win a championship. The Jazz on the other hand had 2 top 25 players all-time but didn't even push it past game 5. That Jazz team also had Hornacek (who I used to like for some reason back in the day, though I was like 9).

To be fair, Tom Chambers vs. Hakeem is/was destruction waiting to happen. Hakeem also put on a block clinic in that series (23 in total- 5 games, WOW). Looks like the Jazz D did a good job in game 4 on Hakeem but still lost.

tredigs
07-29-2011, 04:07 AM
Long story short, it's really, really tough to hate on that team - but it's a fair stance.

In one hand, very fair to discount their legacies on account of never taking home the hardware. But, on the OTHER hand? We find ourselves with the Showtime Lakers followed by Prime Jordan's Bulls. Intersperse a touch of Hakeem's Rocket's and Duncan's early prime Spurs? Yikes. Sorry, John. No soup for you!

OH - Forgot the Shaq + Kobe Lakers. Another small timer. AKA - Sorry 'bout it.

To me, PatSox, the obvious argument to your stance of "have any two top 25's won so little, etc" is - have any two elite players faced such elite champions year after year?. They literally battled 7 of the 10 best players of all time (and many of them played with Top 50's...) Jordan/Magic/Bird/Hakeem/Shaq/Duncan/Kobe - Jesus titty F'n Christ..

Like I said before... Sorry, John!

PatsSoxKnicks
07-29-2011, 04:17 AM
OH - Forgot the Shaq + Kobe Lakers. Another small timer. AKA - Sorry 'bout it.

To me, PatSox, the obvious argument to your stance of "have any two top 25's won so little, etc" is - have any two elite players faced such elite champions year after year?. They literally battled 7 of the 10 best players of all time (and many of them played with Top 50's...) Jordan/Magic/Bird/Hakeem/Shaq/Duncan/Kobe - Jesus titty F'n Christ..

Like I said before... Sorry, John!

That is some very tough competition but its not like the Malone + Stockton duo was losing to them exclusively. And the 94 Rockets? Should the Jazz have lost to that team? Don't we widely praise Hakeem for taking that team to the promise land with the talent around him? Well the Jazz lost to that team in 5 games.

Or how about the Payton + Kemp led Sonics (the Jazz lost twice to them)? That duo was certainly great though. They also lost the the Blazers of the early 90s twice, don't remember who was on that team, I'll look it up. I'm sure in the late 80s, they must've lost to the Lakers.

In any case, I see 2 losses to Payton + Kemp, despite Stockton + Malone being the better duo collectively or individually. Also, the 94 Rockets.

PS- This has been a great discussion.

YourTeamSucks
07-29-2011, 04:34 AM
maybe im the only one but ill take charles barkley over julius and david any day of the week

SMH!
07-29-2011, 04:37 AM
a

JordansBulls
07-29-2011, 08:13 AM
I took Mikan because he came into the league and won 5 titles in 6 years, and currently he is 2nd all time in playoffs WS/PER 48 minutes and #2 all time in Playoff PER.

JordansBulls
07-29-2011, 08:18 AM
Scottie Pippen deserves to be on this last before Gervin. It's ridiculous he isn't already on the list.



Again it is not hard on how this works. Players need to be nominated, but the player needs to have a majority of the votes as well to be added to the next one. Some posters have been trying to nominate 2,3,4,5 players which isn't doing anything because only 1 player is added per scenario. 25 options is already a lot and you needed a certain amount of players to start with in the 1st place.

When he gets nominated by majority of posters he will be added. Thus far

George Gervin has 2 votes
Scotte Pippen has 1 vote

Raps18-19 Champ
07-29-2011, 09:54 AM
I took Mikan because he came into the league and won 5 titles in 6 years, and currently he is 2nd all time in playoffs WS/PER 48 minutes and #2 all time in Playoff PER.

He should have done that though. It's like a normal person playing in a league of midgets.

You're expected to completely dominate.

mightybosstone
07-29-2011, 09:54 AM
Again it is not hard on how this works. Players need to be nominated, but the player needs to have a majority of the votes as well to be added to the next one. Some posters have been trying to nominate 2,3,4,5 players which isn't doing anything because only 1 player is added per scenario. 25 options is already a lot and you needed a certain amount of players to start with in the 1st place.

When he gets nominated by majority of posters he will be added. Thus far

George Gervin has 2 votes
Scotte Pippen has 1 vote

Fine... Will two other posters please nominate Scottie Pippen (who is clearly better than half the players on this list) to appease the precious JB? If posters are praising Stockton, the second best player on a franchise that accomplished nothing, it's absurd that Pippen shouldn't get some love for being the second best player on a franchise that won six championships. And that's before you considering the fact that he might be the single greatest perimeter defender in NBA history.

Brooklyn Mets
07-29-2011, 10:21 AM
Dwayne Wade has more votes than Bob Cousy :facepalm:

LakersIn5
07-29-2011, 11:09 AM
lebron is the most talented left

mightybosstone
07-29-2011, 12:12 PM
How did Iverson get six votes? Did six people accidentally vote for him? Is it one guy who has six accounts? Did a bunch of drunken posters get together and think it would be funny to vote for him this early?

Swashcuff
07-29-2011, 12:44 PM
How did Iverson get six votes? Did six people accidentally vote for him? Is it one guy who has six accounts? Did a bunch of drunken posters get together and think it would be funny to vote for him this early?

Even though he's one of the most hated basketballers ever he's also one of the most loved. Can't fight that. Does he deserve to go in the top 25? NO! But he's getting votes regarless because of how much love fans have for him.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-29-2011, 01:01 PM
I nominate Scottie Pippen.

NYKalltheway
07-29-2011, 01:06 PM
If we're nominating again, Adrian Dantley ;)

Got a problem with that? :p

todu82
07-29-2011, 01:06 PM
David Robinson

mightybosstone
07-29-2011, 01:18 PM
I nominate Scottie Pippen.

Sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar. Do we have another taker willing to nominate Scottie?

mightybosstone
07-29-2011, 01:21 PM
If we're nominating again, Adrian Dantley ;)

Got a problem with that? :p

Over Scottie Pippen? Yes. Yes I do.

JordansBulls
07-29-2011, 01:42 PM
Sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar. Do we have another taker willing to nominate Scottie?

I already requested the mods to add him on.

Chrisstyles
07-29-2011, 01:43 PM
The answer is definitely the first MVP ever Bob Pettit and its not close. I'm disappointed he is not further up the list. He was part of only two teams to beat Russell's Celtics in the finals and he did score 50 in the final game 6 (as well as 19 of the last 21 points) to win. His Hawks loss to the Celtics in all the other four finals that they met in.
He is also 3rd all time in rebounds per game to only Russell and Chamberlain with 16.2 per game. He was a good free throw shooter unlike Russell and Chamberlain. He averaged 20 points per game every year of his career and the only other player to do that was Michael Jordan.
To me he is the best power forward ever to play the game not Duncan.

mightybosstone
07-29-2011, 02:04 PM
The answer is definitely the first MVP ever Bob Pettit and its not close. I'm disappointed he is not further up the list. He was part of only two teams to beat Russell's Celtics in the finals and he did score 50 in the final game 6 (as well as 19 of the last 21 points) to win. His Hawks loss to the Celtics in all the other four finals that they met in.
He is also 3rd all time in rebounds per game to only Russell and Chamberlain with 16.2 per game. He was a good free throw shooter unlike Russell and Chamberlain. He averaged 20 points per game every year of his career and the only other player to do that was Michael Jordan.
To me he is the best power forward ever to play the game not Duncan.

I certainly think you can make a case for Pettit, and I think that anyone who picks Mikan over him is clearly misinformed or doesn't know what they're talking about. If it were me, I'd fill out the top 20:

16. Barkley
17. Havlicek
18. Pettit
19. Robinson
20. Baylor

I think right after the top 20, I'd have to start considering Dirk and Lebron. Or maybe in the late teens. It's really hard to judge players who are still playing versus guys who have very defined careers.

Chronz
07-29-2011, 03:53 PM
Think Lebron deserves to be in the top 20?

For me, his game alone makes him arguably top 15.

Im really just going along with this list as it gos but I think Elgin Baylor is a fine benchmark for Bron right now. Hes pretty much already exceeded him in just about everything important aside from overall longevity. And considering Elgins low level of play late in his career, Bron should have no problem exceeding him there as well. In fact I may just vote him ahead of Elgin because of it.

Chronz
07-29-2011, 04:49 PM
How about the fact that in the 92-93 season, his first in Phoenix, Chuck took a largely average to good cast to the Finals (which included Marerle, Ainge, Kevin Johnson, etc.). They had a very nice deep team but no true #2 threat. Taking a break from the advanced stats- no one on that team averaged over 17 ppg in the regular season and Chuck was the only player to average more then 5.5 rebounds. Obviously, some of those guys upped their performance in the playoffs, like Kevin Johnson but still, to take that team to the Finals is pretty remarkable. And this is all in his 1st season in Phoenix mind you. He picks up and leaves Philly, where he had been for what 7 years? Goes to Phoenix, and carries them to the Finals.

Hate to burst your subjective bubble but lets keep in mind that the Suns were a team that had just finished the season prior with the 4th highest SRS in the league.

Granted some of that core was lost in the trade for Barkley so Im not trying to downplay his accomplishment but when you make a trade for a star you expect that kind of jump. When it doesnt happen, as was the case with Melo joining the Knicks this past season, then it either says something about the star or the spare parts, possibly both.
Chuck was a star no doubt and the 93 Suns may not have been the best cast but I wouldnt describe them as mediocre. Chuck made a good/great team, elite.
I wish they could have held onto Hornacek but they did add Ainge and Ceballos began breaking out for them before that knee injury in the WCF.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-29-2011, 10:25 PM
Im really just going along with this list as it gos but I think Elgin Baylor is a fine benchmark for Bron right now. Hes pretty much already exceeded him in just about everything important aside from overall longevity. And considering Elgins low level of play late in his career, Bron should have no problem exceeding him there as well. In fact I may just vote him ahead of Elgin because of it.

I wanted to vote Lebron around this spot. But I figured to honour these greats. But if anything, I might switch my voting to.

16. Robinson
17. Barkley
18. James
19. Stockton
20. Baylor

PatsSoxKnicks
07-29-2011, 11:16 PM
Hate to burst your subjective bubble but lets keep in mind that the Suns were a team that had just finished the season prior with the 4th highest SRS in the league.

Granted some of that core was lost in the trade for Barkley so Im not trying to downplay his accomplishment but when you make a trade for a star you expect that kind of jump. When it doesnt happen, as was the case with Melo joining the Knicks this past season, then it either says something about the star or the spare parts, possibly both.
Chuck was a star no doubt and the 93 Suns may not have been the best cast but I wouldnt describe them as mediocre. Chuck made a good/great team, elite.
I wish they could have held onto Hornacek but they did add Ainge and Ceballos began breaking out for them before that knee injury in the WCF.

Yeah, perhaps average/mediocre was a bit strong and obviously, they were a pretty deep team (8 players with a WS/48 over .100), which maybe I underestimated. They also had a pretty good SRS that year, better than the Bulls, which I didn't even realize.

Going back to the 93-94 Rockets vs. the 92-93 Suns, looking at SRS, the Suns were better. Suns had a 6.27 SRS vs. the Rockets 4.19 SRS. Although, I don't know that it tells us anything for the postseason. Hakeem was widely known for raising his game in the playoffs.

Comparing the teams, Barkley ended up with 14.4 WS, Hakeem 14.3. Majerle on the Suns had 9.8 WS, Otis Thorpe on the Rockets had 9.8 WS. And looking at some of the other numbers, I think they were pretty comparable. Both were 2nd on the team in scoring. Ainge and Kenny Smith were pretty comparable. Cellabos was I guess better than anything Hakeem had but he didn't get much playing time it seems.

It just doesn't seem like the 2 supporting casts are that much different. The Suns were probably deeper which is an advantage but from the stand point of a true #2, both teams lacked one.

What do you think? Flip the script, the Rockets run happens 1 year earlier and they face the Bulls and the Suns run happens 1 year later and they face the Knicks. I think the Suns end up winning and the Rockets lose to Jordan's Bulls.

How are the reputations altered then? Barkley gets credit for winning a championship w/o a true #2 while Hakeem doesn't get the recognition of carrying a less talented team to a championship.

BTW, I'm not saying that'd make Barkley better than Hakeem, but it would alter both of their reputations. I would imagine that scenario bumps Barkley into the top 11 or 12. Definitely ahead of Karl Malone and Dr. J. (I'm using public perception, aka PSD's polls).

PatsSoxKnicks
07-29-2011, 11:34 PM
Just one more point that should be looked at (anyone up for it?): Stockton and Malone are both either top 20 or top 25 players all-time. Now over the entire NBA history, there have obviously been a number of pairings between HOF players/top 25 players. On PSD's top 10 list alone, you have Shaq + Kobe, and Magic + Kareem. There's obviously many more.

However, whats the average success rate of a type of pairing between 2 top 25 players? I would imagine most of them, or almost all of them end up with a ring right? Kobe + Shaq had 3. Duncan + Robinson (an older one though) had 2 (although it might not be fair to count the one in 03 since Robinson was in his last year and clearly not top 25 player all-time level anymore). Magic + Kareem won 5. Moses and Dr. J won 1. etc.

Anyways, are Stockton and Malone the only pair of all-time greats to go ringless when paired with another top 25 player of all-time? I realize its very unfair to the duo in that they had to face MJ's Bulls but still, are they the only ringless pair?

If so, should that perhaps be a knock on them. For me, it could be. Although playing the Bulls makes it less so.

Anyways, food for thought. If anyone is interested in doing this out for each pair, that'd be really interesting to see. If I have time tomorrow, I might do it (though I probably won't have any time).

I'm going to do this out. For the sake of completing a top 25, I would assume most people have the following 10 players rounding out the top 25 in no order:

Pettit
Robinson
Barkley
Stockton
Baylor
Lebron
Havlicek
KG
Dirk, Pippen, Payton or Drexler (2 out of those 4 with the first 2 being more likey)

Or I could include all of them, I doubt it'd change the results. Anyone I'm forgetting thats got a legit claim at top 25?

I could include Mikan I suppose, since it looks like he's going to go soon but IMO, he isn't top 25. 3 dominant seasons over midgets doesn't make him top 25.

DR_1
07-29-2011, 11:37 PM
Stockton; he defined the PG position.

THE MTL
07-29-2011, 11:37 PM
I feel like due to the young nature of psd, there might be some older players that get slept on for guys we grew up watching. For example, already multiple votes for Iverson- 3, Cousy, Unseld, Reed, Sam Jones- 0. Guess that's just how it goes.

My vote here has to be Stockton though. Could be the best point guard ever. And although he didnt get the hardware, his numbers are still crushing.

I actually think its the other way around. Because of the PSD's young age we tend to overrate older payers because they gain "legend" status.

Think about how athletes are built today and how undersized many of the legends are in today's terms. How would Cousy fair with a Drose, CP3, John Wall? Or how would Mikan fair with dealing with guys much larger than him.

I like ur Stockton vote though. Imma go with Isiah Thomas however

JordansBulls
07-30-2011, 01:00 AM
Records in series with HCA for the 4 PF's.



vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Garnett: 3-2 (60%)/5-0 (100%)
Dirk: 6-2 (75%)/ 2-1 (67%)
Malone: 4-4 (50%)/ 8-2 (80%)
Barkley: 2-1 (67%)/ 8-1 (89%)

NYKalltheway
07-30-2011, 06:45 AM
Pettit
Robinson
Barkley
Stockton
Baylor
Lebron
Havlicek
KG
Dirk, Pippen, Payton or Drexler (2 out of those 4 with the first 2 being more likey)



Top 25? The following have a say for top 30, including the guys you mentioned

Isiah Thomas
Bob Cousy
Jerry Lucas
Walt Frazier
Bob Lanier
Dominique Wilkins
Kevin McHale
Willis Reed (I'd say he's more top 30 though because of his fast decline, but if Lebron is here for 7 years, you can't leave Reed behind)
Dolph Schayes (first generation NBA superstar)
Nate Archibald
Dan Issel
Dave DeBusschere
Dave Cowens
Paul Arizin
George Gervin
Elvin Hayes (definitely top 25 imo)
Pete Maravich
Nate Thurmond (very slim chances but you can make a case for him over a lot of these guys)
Chris Mullin (very slim chances but you can make a case for him over a lot of these guys)
Artis Gilmore
Alex English
Michael Cooper
Adrian Dantley
Bob McAdoo
James Worthy
Sam Jones
Walt Bellamy (has a fast decline though, but still averaged 20/13 in career)
Rick Barry
Jason Kidd

Btw, Drexler and Payton must be included in the equation. You can't have a top 25 without Drexler imo and Payton is quite close to that. I'd even argue 19th-20th for him. Also Nowitzki and Pippen should be considered for top 30.

What you're gonna be doing would be an incomplete work since there's over 40 guys fighting for spots #15-#25 ;) It shows how close these players are (and also shows how overrated Kobe has become :p ) I think you have to be ready to do one for TOP 50, since top 25-50 is still really close. And at 50 you'll have guys who'd have a legit shout there, but there'd still be guys who had a shot at top 25-35 there, like Bill Sharman, Sam Jones... :p It's really really closer than most people believe. Heck, some can even make a case for Tmac being a top 20-25 player with his inflated PER numbers!!

P.S: The above list is not who I want to be in the top 25, I actually think I listed more than 25 guys already, it's an indication of how close these guys are and imo they have a shot at being top 25 of all time. Some would extend to 30-35 of course since there's too many of them but I can't just think outside the box here and filter that list ;)

Perhaps we should go for top 100 :D

edit - P.S.2:
This is how I'd complete the top 20:
16. Robinson (since he's winning)
17. Mikan
18. Stockton
19. Barkley
20. Havlicek (I voted him here but I guess if the consensus feels it's a race between two Centers, I'll join the bandwagon :) And the best pure PG deserves to be below 20 )

mightybosstone
07-30-2011, 10:05 AM
What you're gonna be doing would be an incomplete work since there's over 40 guys fighting for spots #15-#25

I saw the list and I can't say that those aren't all good players, but I certainly think there are some standouts. And while you can make a case for some of those players, frankly, I don't think a lot of them are worthy of going anywhere near the top 25.


edit - P.S.2:
This is how I'd complete the top 20:
16. Robinson (since he's winning)
17. Mikan
18. Stockton
19. Barkley
20. Havlicek (I voted him here but I guess if the consensus feels it's a race between two Centers, I'll join the bandwagon :) And the best pure PG deserves to be below 20 )
Again... why Mikan here? If it's my list, Mikan doesn't sniff the top 25, but I'd consider him in the 25=35 range. I have yet to see a single poster make a legit argument that isn't based entirely on inflated stats in a different league playing against smaller players for only seven seasons.

GoPacers33
07-30-2011, 10:24 AM
Ewing

mightybosstone
07-30-2011, 10:38 AM
Ewing

Why? If you're going to go off the wall with your picks, at least back it up with your reasoning. It sounds to me like you just randomly picked a player off the poll and went with it because it sounded nice...

Swashcuff
07-30-2011, 10:43 AM
Why? If you're going to go off the wall with your picks, at least back it up with your reasoning. It sounds to me like you just randomly picked a player off the poll and went with it because it sounded nice...

Don't even bother bro. It's his MO he goes into every thread makes his pick and leave without suggest any reason for his pick and when challenged he doesn't defend. In the PF thread he's been pick Josh Smith at like 4th never once did he say why.

Chronz
07-30-2011, 10:46 AM
Yeah, perhaps average/mediocre was a bit strong and obviously, they were a pretty deep team (8 players with a WS/48 over .100), which maybe I underestimated. They also had a pretty good SRS that year, better than the Bulls, which I didn't even realize.
The Bulls didnt go full throttle that year, there was talk of Olympic lag. Bulls really had nothing to play for, they were champs and they had the most talent in the league.


Going back to the 93-94 Rockets vs. the 92-93 Suns, looking at SRS, the Suns were better. Suns had a 6.27 SRS vs. the Rockets 4.19 SRS. Although, I don't know that it tells us anything for the postseason. Hakeem was widely known for raising his game in the playoffs.

Theres a theory regarding teams that rely heavily on the 3PT shot, that the inconsistency inherent with long range shooting (shooting slumps and streaks) render the teams offensive output more volatile than you would otherwise expect. Justin did a study looking specifically at the Orlando Magic and did in fact find a greater range of peaks and valleys for a team that was one of the best in the league. Those peaks and valleys led the Magic all the way to the Finals one year and out of R.1 another, the Rockets were somewhat like that IMO, they got hot at the right time.


Unlike the Magic, the Rockets are able to withstand slumps because they eliminated the 3 from the opposing teams arsenal and were able to play through Dream. Still much of their success was dependent on timing and the Rockets got hot from 3 during the playoffs, that spacing no doubt had a positive effect on Hakeem and to be frank was what was lacking for both Ewing and D-Rob in their series.

As for the Suns, its a shame KJ missed so many games, with him there all year the Suns probably build on their chemistry


Comparing the teams, Barkley ended up with 14.4 WS, Hakeem 14.3. Majerle on the Suns had 9.8 WS, Otis Thorpe on the Rockets had 9.8 WS. And looking at some of the other numbers, I think they were pretty comparable. Both were 2nd on the team in scoring. Ainge and Kenny Smith were pretty comparable. Cellabos was I guess better than anything Hakeem had but he didn't get much playing time it seems.

It just doesn't seem like the 2 supporting casts are that much different. The Suns were probably deeper which is an advantage but from the stand point of a true #2, both teams lacked one.

Whats your gripe against KJ as a legit #2? And the 2 teams did pretty much run into each other, what do you make of their 7 game series, were the Suns so far removed from that magical run (making them a one hit wonder) or did they legitimately compete and have a chance to win the conference, what did you make of the individual matchup between Chuck and Dream? Personally its a tossup but if you were to flip the script I think the Suns win the title over the Knicks but not over the Magic. Likewise I think the Rockets lose against the Bulls, if they even make it that far because throughout the 90's the Sonics gave them trouble. As a Rockets fan I remember the sighs of relief knowing the Sonics were eliminated in R.1 year after year.

I actually like their 2nd team much better in spite of their middling statistics. You dont win that many games without HCA without having more talent, that talent just didnt get a chance to mesh during the regular season.


BTW, I'm not saying that'd make Barkley better than Hakeem, but it would alter both of their reputations. I would imagine that scenario bumps Barkley into the top 11 or 12. Definitely ahead of Karl Malone and Dr. J. (I'm using public perception, aka PSD's polls).

The beauty of the remaining contenders is that only Pettit has a ring, you can basically compare every other playoff run against eachother. Whoever has the most impressive runs should win this IMO.

mightybosstone
07-30-2011, 11:02 AM
Don't even bother bro. It's his MO he goes into every thread makes his pick and leave without suggest any reason for his pick and when challenged he doesn't defend. In the PF thread he's been pick Josh Smith at like 4th never once did he say why.

Where's the fun in that? I don't understand these post padders on PSD who go around with single sentence answers to everything and never provide anything new to discussion. Who joins a sports forum to NOT discuss sports?

Swashcuff
07-30-2011, 11:15 AM
Where's the fun in that? I don't understand these post padders on PSD who go around with single sentence answers to everything and never provide anything new to discussion. Who joins a sports forum to NOT discuss sports?

EXACTLY

I can't understand either. No debate no substance no reasoning. One or two word posts and that's it. Fully understand bro.

Geargo Wallace
07-30-2011, 12:21 PM
Records in series with HCA for the 4 PF's.



vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Garnett: 3-2 (60%)/5-0 (100%)
Dirk: 6-2 (75%)/ 2-1 (67%)
Malone: 4-4 (50%)/ 8-2 (80%)
Barkley: 2-1 (67%)/ 8-1 (89%)


I swear every playoff team in the west in the 2000's had 50+ wins.

RealistFan
07-30-2011, 01:33 PM
When I saw them play, Charles Barkley was indisputably a better player than David Robinson so I voted for him.

tredigs
07-30-2011, 01:43 PM
Bob Pettit still with only 2 votes, and AI 3x that many. I hate you all.