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Mile High Champ
07-25-2011, 09:02 AM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

1) Dirk Nowitzki
2) Amare Stoudemire
3) Pau Gasol
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)





2010 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Pau Gasol
2) Dirk Nowitzki
3) Tim Duncan
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Carlos Boozer
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Josh Smith
9) David Lee
10) Zach Randolph

2009 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Dirk Nowitzki
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Pau Gasol
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Antawn Jamison
9) Rashard Lewis
10) David West

2008 Off-Season PF rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Amare Stoudemire
4) Chris Bosh
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Elton Brand
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Pau Gasol
9) Antawn Jamison
10) David West

Mile High Champ
07-25-2011, 09:04 AM
Sorry for the delay, summer weekends are all busy.

I have Love here and it was a fairly easy call for me.

NYKalltheway
07-25-2011, 09:18 AM
Bosh and Love should be the runners for this one

pebloemer
07-25-2011, 09:26 AM
To be honest I would put Garnett here for his defensive impact if durability wasn't such a concern at this point in his career. If you give me a healthy Garnett for a playoff run, I'd take that over the remaining names. But durability matters.

Still contemplating between Bosh, Love and Griffin on this one.

jimbobjarree
07-25-2011, 09:29 AM
Zachary

gsgs49
07-25-2011, 09:29 AM
Bosh and Love should be the runners for this one

Agreed I have Love at 4 and Bosh at 5.

Swashcuff
07-25-2011, 09:49 AM
This is where it's anyone's ball game a strong case could be made for anyone from Love, to Griffin, Bosh, Randolph, Aldridge and don't get it twisted if we're talking both sides of the ball Kevin Garnett is the best player left.

I think I'll be making my case for Kevin Love here however. Best individual season of any of the players left took home the MIP, made his first ASG and had it not been for his lack of team success (which despite the naysayers in no fault of Kevin Love they won 17 games because of him with no Love they would have challenged the 72-73 76ers for least amount of wins in an NBA season.

Kevin Love's got my vote here.

stuckyfreshhh
07-25-2011, 10:02 AM
I know Love is great but, fair or not, he's getting penalized for only winning 17 games (by me of course). If you deserve to be #4 you have to be able to carry your team to some wins not just put up astronomical numbers while you loose by doube digits nightly.

I'm going Zach Randolph here. Go to player on the Grizz this past season and does it all with no vertical.

stuckyfreshhh
07-25-2011, 10:03 AM
Plus Love's D is pretty bad. I cannot, in good conscious, go Love here.

Ill21
07-25-2011, 10:17 AM
Kevin Love

NYKnickFanatic
07-25-2011, 10:36 AM
Z-Bo for me. Dude is a beast.

sixer04fan
07-25-2011, 10:39 AM
Z-Bo, no doubt in my mind.

Evolution23
07-25-2011, 11:15 AM
Z-bo for sure. I would've went with Bosh but he played inconsistent the whole season.

Hustlenomics
07-25-2011, 11:18 AM
Zach Randolph, great playoffs for him

mightybosstone
07-25-2011, 11:29 AM
I'm going Bosh and I'm a little surprised Z-Bo is leading the vote over him. If everyone were to put biases aside, Bosh is the best player on this list. He doesn't have the rebounding numbers of Love or the sudden fan friendliness of Randolph, but he's a superior defender and he had a damn good postseason.

NYKnickFanatic
07-25-2011, 11:40 AM
I'm going Bosh and I'm a little surprised Z-Bo is leading the vote over him. If everyone were to put biases aside, Bosh is the best player on this list. He doesn't have the rebounding numbers of Love or the sudden fan friendliness of Randolph, but he's a superior defender and he had a damn good postseason.

Bosh had a better post season than Z-Bo?

Not talking about who go further.

MackSnackWrap
07-25-2011, 12:13 PM
Bosh has to be at 4.. 5) Z Bo 6) Aldridge 7) Love

Chacarron
07-25-2011, 12:22 PM
Chris Boz.

Lil Half Dead
07-25-2011, 12:27 PM
Definitely Bosh here. Then Love, followed by Z Bo.

Mile High Champ
07-25-2011, 12:28 PM
I asked the mods to sticky this but still nothing yet.

naps
07-25-2011, 12:31 PM
Bosh is the best 3rd best power forward in the league but the hate cumulative hate toward LeBron and Heat gets on Bosh as well. He would be voted #2 if he was still a raptor. When was the last time a 3rd option had a 19/8 season with pretty decent defense?

mightybosstone
07-25-2011, 12:32 PM
Bosh had a better post season than Z-Bo?

Not talking about who go further.

I never said he had a better postseason, I said he was a better defender AND he had a good postseason. You ask every GM in the NBA and I doubt there's a single one who would rather have Randolph over Bosh.

theheatles
07-25-2011, 12:34 PM
i voted bosh...he's the most skilled offensively and 2nd best defender left...

CHANGO
07-25-2011, 12:36 PM
This is Chris Bosh spot...

IndyRealist
07-25-2011, 12:37 PM
I never said he had a better postseason, I said he was a better defender AND he had a good postseason. You ask every GM in the NBA and I doubt there's a single one who would rather have Randolph over Bosh.

Bc randolph is a headcase and allegedly involved in drug smuggling. Bosh is a horrible defender. There's a reason he didn't guard nowitzki after blowing his assignment on tue game winner.

tbone2171
07-25-2011, 12:38 PM
I got all the love in the world for Z-Bo, but Bosh> Randolph

Swashcuff
07-25-2011, 12:39 PM
Bc randolph is a headcase and allegedly involved in drug smuggling. Bosh is a horrible defender. There's a reason he didn't guard nowitzki after blowing his assignment on tue game winner.

Nonsense utter nonsense. :pity:

SteBO
07-25-2011, 12:41 PM
For monsterous statistical reasons, I went love. However, if bosh doesn't win this poll or the next, it's simple bosh/miami hate, plain and simple. A third option pf going 19 and 8 for a whole season is a top 5 pf in this league. It's not debatable.

mightybosstone
07-25-2011, 12:44 PM
Bc randolph is a headcase and allegedly involved in drug smuggling. Bosh is a horrible defender. There's a reason he didn't guard nowitzki after blowing his assignment on tue game winner.

Bosh (4.2) was 15th in the NBA in defensive win shares last season. He was 6th among PF behind Garnett (5.6), Gasol (4.7), Josh Smith (4.5), Elton Brand (4.4) and Glen Davis (4.3).

Swashcuff
07-25-2011, 12:58 PM
Bosh (4.2) was 15th in the NBA in defensive win shares last season. He was 6th among PF behind Garnett (5.6), Gasol (4.7), Josh Smith (4.5), Elton Brand (4.4) and Glen Davis (4.3).

Let me add to this by saying in terms of DSPM (Defensive +/-)

Player G Min DSPM
Kevin Garnett 71 2220 4.20
Carlos Boozer 59 1882 1.98
Kris Humphries 74 2061 1.72
Al Horford 77 2704 1.53
Elton Brand 81 2809 1.53
Serge Ibaka 82 2216 1.27
Lamar Odom 82 2639 1.07
Greg Monroe 80 2222 1.01
Paul Millsap 76 2593 0.90
Pau Gasol 82 3037 0.65
Chris Bosh 77 2795 0.60
David West 70 2451 0.24
Kevin Love 73 2611 0.05
Blake Griffin 82 3112 0.05
Dirk Nowitzki 73 2504 -0.04
Luis Scola 74 2412 -0.23
Zach Randolph 75 2724 -0.66
L Aldridge 81 3211 -0.72

Among all the PFs left on the list Chris Bosh has one of the best DSPMs.

Also if we are going to compare him to the men most likely to take the 4-9 spots in terms of opponent counter-production.

After Garnett he has the 2nd best opponent PER at the PF and the best at the C. Also his opponent eFG% is the best among all the top PFs left. Basically Chris Bosh was Miami's unsung defensive hero last season. Not their best defensive player but certainly one of the most valuable. I'll be posting the stats on this in a few.

$GangGr33n$
07-25-2011, 01:00 PM
should be bosh here

Hawkeye15
07-25-2011, 01:01 PM
I have Bosh here, and #5 is where I start with the Love debate.

THE GIPPER
07-25-2011, 01:08 PM
I have Bosh here, and #5 is where I start with the Love debate.

Im a little shocked you think bosh is better than love

ManRam
07-25-2011, 01:18 PM
I went Bosh...I think it's still pretty obvious. Z-Bo had a good year, Blake and Love are promising young players, but their game isn't as good as Bosh's is yet.


These polls make me sad. Dwight will be the #1 center, probably near-unanimous, but there won't be a single other Magic player that will receive votes, besides Nelson, and he got like 5. :sigh:

Antipod
07-25-2011, 01:27 PM
Zach Randolph ... one good postseason and he`s top 5...

My vote went to KG

Hawkeye15
07-25-2011, 01:35 PM
Im a little shocked you think bosh is better than love

Just because I defend Love like a machine doesn't mean I am not realistic about my guys. Now, will Love pass Bosh? For sure. Is he there yet? We will have to see next season

Swashcuff
07-25-2011, 01:43 PM
A little more on defense.

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/Swashcuff/Basketball/PFsD.jpg?t=1311615175

According to 82games.com opponent counter production Bosh held his opponents to the lowest combined (PFs and Cs) eFG% of any of the PFs currently being debated in this thread. Yes better than that of Garnett's even (though Garnett did play better on PFs).

Also there is a reason that despite losing Haslem for basically the entire season and having Wade and LeBron be there most valuable defensive players the Heat still managed to rank #5 last season in opposing PFs FG%.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/opponentstats/11/9/fgpct/1-1

Boston was 6th, LAC 13th, Memphis 17th, Portland 26th and Minny 27th.

To anyone trying to dispute the 82games.com #s and try to discredit Bosh's D by saying he allowed more PPG than Randolph I tell you this.

The Memphis Grizz opposing PFs attempted 2nd the least (Portland #1) amount of shots per game than any other team's opposing PF in the NBA last season. Miami was 24th and Minny was 30th.

Many teams saw the weak point in Miami's D as Chris Bosh but they were in for a rude surprise because Bosh more than held his own against them by doing a fantastic job of playing D.

Now I know defending Bosh so much goes against my initial choice of K.Love but in all honesty they can be interchangeable here for me. I chose Love because of his overall high level of production, Bosh however is the better two way player.

Swashcuff
07-25-2011, 01:49 PM
Im a little shocked you think bosh is better than love

Stebo voted Love here and Hawkeye15 voted Bosh.

Two posters who withhold their biases in discussions such as these and base their decision on solid reasoning despite their obligations to their favourite team/players.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-25-2011, 01:53 PM
Kevin Love. How can you over look 20 and 15.

GhostfaceDrilla
07-25-2011, 01:54 PM
Z-Bo for me. Dude is a beast.

I tell a ***** bow doooooowwwwwwwwwn.....

This. Randolph is a BEAST. Why isn't Aldridge getting more votes? He's better than Bosh...

GhostfaceDrilla
07-25-2011, 01:59 PM
I went Bosh...I think it's still pretty obvious. Z-Bo had a good year, Blake and Love are promising young players, but their game isn't as good as Bosh's is yet.


These polls make me sad. Dwight will be the #1 center, probably near-unanimous, but there won't be a single other Magic player that will receive votes, besides Nelson, and he got like 5. :sigh:

Which is why Dwight is leaving. Never should have traded Turkoglu, Lewis, Lee... F'd up the chemistry.

DR_1
07-25-2011, 02:05 PM
Well the first 3 were no-brainers for the most part . As for the rest:

Zebo
Love
Blake
Aldridge
Boozer
Bosh
Garnett

I'm not trying to offend Bosh fans, I actually think he's a really nice player, but there are just so many good PF's in this league; and as to why I put Boozer before him, I just think people criticize Booz too much after his tough Playoffs last season. Boozer has the edge in regular season, Bosh stepped it up in the Playoffs. Honestly, it could go either way, but I gave it to Boozer because he played better for a longer period of time than Bosh (and cause I'm a Bulls fan lol).

naps
07-25-2011, 02:30 PM
Well the first 3 were no-brainers for the most part . As for the rest:

Zebo
Love
Blake
Aldridge
Boozer
Bosh
Garnett

I'm not trying to offend Bosh fans, I actually think he's a really nice player, but there are just so many good PF's in this league; and as to why I put Boozer before him, I just think people criticize Booz too much after his tough Playoffs last season. Boozer has the edge in regular season, Bosh stepped it up in the Playoffs. Honestly, it could go either way, but I gave it to Boozer because he played better for a longer period of time than Bosh (and cause I'm a Bulls fan lol).


Boozer is nowhere near Bosh's planet.

Cool007
07-25-2011, 02:33 PM
I say Chris Bosh.

Cool007
07-25-2011, 02:34 PM
Boozer is nowhere near Bosh's planet.

As a Bulls fan, I totally agree with that.

pebloemer
07-25-2011, 02:37 PM
Well the first 3 were no-brainers for the most part . As for the rest:

Zebo
Love
Blake
Aldridge
Boozer
Bosh
Garnett

I'm not trying to offend Bosh fans, I actually think he's a really nice player, but there are just so many good PF's in this league; and as to why I put Boozer before him, I just think people criticize Booz too much after his tough Playoffs last season. Boozer has the edge in regular season, Bosh stepped it up in the Playoffs. Honestly, it could go either way, but I gave it to Boozer because he played better for a longer period of time than Bosh (and cause I'm a Bulls fan lol).

As a Bulls fan, if you were offered Bosh for Boozer straight up, you'd keep Boozer?

Regarding Z-Bo's rise in the ranks - I will admit he had an excellent season, and he has been a strong statistical PF for much of his career. But it seems to be a recency bias in people's memories over his career. If I'm a GM, and the quality of these other names are available for my team, I'm certainly a lot more confident with what Bosh will produce for my team than what Z-Bo will. He may surprised me and have another stellar season; but if adversity strikes, I'm concerned how his game will respond. In spite of his production, he remains a player that teams had considerable trouble with in the past and was pretty much given away by multiple franchises in spite of his statistics.

I respect what he did this year, but I'm not ready to take him over Bosh.

THE GIPPER
07-25-2011, 02:42 PM
Stebo voted Love here and Hawkeye15 voted Bosh.

Two posters who withhold their biases in discussions such as these and base their decision on solid reasoning despite their obligations to their favourite team/players.

Im just surprised because they're very close so I would just assume he would choose the player he's seen more of.

BlitzBlud4
07-25-2011, 02:42 PM
Bosh is a good player but did not have a better regular season than many of the players on the list (Randolph, Love, Griffin, Aldridge) IMO. If Bosh was the no.1 or no.2 option on his team (or still in Toronto), Id think he would have a better case over some of the other pf's

Hawkeye15
07-25-2011, 02:45 PM
Im just surprised because they're very close so I would just assume he would choose the player he's seen more of.

as I said, I think Love will pass Bosh shortly. But despite all the things he does well, I don't have confidence in him yet that he will help close a game. It will come in time for sure, but Bosh has shown to be the better player

And saying prime Bosh is better than Love by a squeaker is not a slight at my boy. Its acually a compliment. If I had to guess, in a year from now Love will be #2-3.

Bruno
07-25-2011, 03:15 PM
Bosh, Z-Bo, Love, Blake, and Aldridge are all reasonable votes here, IMO. I think KG and J-Smith are on the outside looking in on that group, and that there is a drop off after those two. Good competition at the PF spot in the league today. Nice mix of young and older guys.

Brooklyn Mets
07-25-2011, 03:21 PM
Zbo

Kashmir13579
07-25-2011, 03:24 PM
Love!!!

VCaintdead17
07-25-2011, 03:25 PM
It was between Bosh, Love, Randolph and KG for me here.

Went Bosh.

$KnicksAndKobe$
07-25-2011, 03:33 PM
Between Bosh/Love/Griffen/Zack

Zack earned it.

nimzboy
07-25-2011, 03:54 PM
Between Zbo or Bosh.

Went with bosh, #5 will be zbo, 6 should be love

SteBO
07-25-2011, 03:57 PM
as I said, I think Love will pass Bosh shortly. But despite all the things he does well, I don't have confidence in him yet that he will help close a game. It will come in time for sure, but Bosh has shown to be the better player

And saying prime Bosh is better than Love by a squeaker is not a slight at my boy. Its acually a compliment. If I had to guess, in a year from now Love will be #2-3.


Im just surprised because they're very close so I would just assume he would choose the player he's seen more of.


Stebo voted Love here and Hawkeye15 voted Bosh.

Two posters who withhold their biases in discussions such as these and base their decision on solid reasoning despite their obligations to their favourite team/players.
21 points and 15 rebounds as an average for a PF was too much for me to ignore, hence why I chose Love here. I was just astonished by his play this past year. However, I was close to taking Bosh here as well. Again, as a third option, for Bosh to put 19 and 8 is seems astonishing to me. Not only that, but he was even more consistent in the playoffs, something hardly anyone outside our fanbase thought to would occur. If Bosh wins this poll, then I'll obviously be happy. In that case, Love would go #5 for me. Aldridge, Blake, and Z-bo are not top 5 PF's.

NYKnickFanatic
07-25-2011, 04:00 PM
I never said he had a better postseason, I said he was a better defender AND he had a good postseason. You ask every GM in the NBA and I doubt there's a single one who would rather have Randolph over Bosh.

Is Bosh a better defender, yes. But I dont think Bosh would be a clear choice over Z-Bo for GMs. Z-Bo can give you 20+ & 10+ every single night. Can Bosh? Yes, but not every single night.

SteBO
07-25-2011, 04:03 PM
Is Bosh a better defender, yes. But I dont think Bosh would be a clear choice over Z-Bo for GMs. Z-Bo can give you 20+ & 10+ every single night. Can Bosh? Yes, but not every single night.
That's why Bosh should probably win this poll. Not everything is about offense. Bosh became a pretty solid defender this year. Also add in the fact that he played in a completely new system, and got off to a very slow start. I expect a 20 and 10 average from him next NBA season, that's for sure.

SugeKnight
07-25-2011, 04:25 PM
Zbo, Bosh, lma, love, garnett, griffin, in that order

BlitzBlud4
07-25-2011, 04:30 PM
21 points and 15 rebounds as an average for a PF was too much for me to ignore, hence why I chose Love here. I was just astonished by his play this past year. However, I was close to taking Bosh here as well. Again, as a third option, for Bosh to put 19 and 8 is seems astonishing to me. Not only that, but he was even more consistent in the playoffs, something hardly anyone outside our fanbase thought to would occur. If Bosh wins this poll, then I'll obviously be happy. In that case, Love would go #5 for me. Aldridge, Blake, and Z-bo are not top 5 PF's.

That's debatable to say none of them are top 5 (or were top 5 during the regular season). The players you listed were no.1 options on playoff teams (saved Griffin), while Bosh was the 3rd option. Im not saying that they all are clearly better than Bosh, but they did have better season's than Bosh. I think it was somewhat a mistake for Bosh to go to Miami (though he probably didn't expect LeBron to join) because now he misses some good season in his prime. Most likely, as long as he's in Miami, he'll be the 3rd option

theheatles
07-25-2011, 04:41 PM
if zbo was never a knick, bosh would of won comfortably

SteBO
07-25-2011, 04:57 PM
That's debatable to say none of them are top 5 (or were top 5 during the regular season). The players you listed were no.1 options on playoff teams (saved Griffin), while Bosh was the 3rd option. Im not saying that they all are clearly better than Bosh, but they did have better season's than Bosh. I think it was somewhat a mistake for Bosh to go to Miami (though he probably didn't expect LeBron to join) because now he misses some good season in his prime. Most likely, as long as he's in Miami, he'll be the 3rd option
Probably should have said in my opinion, so i don't let my opinion off as fact, but yeah it is debatable in a sense. However, LMA hasn't shown me that he can be a factor defensively and Blake played one year of b-ball and to already label him a top 5 PF is a bit of a stretch to me especailly with holes in his game still. Z-bo isn't top 5 to me for the same reasons I said LMA wasn't. He's a 20-10 guy, but he isn't good defensively and part of me feels like he was a product of getting more shots once Rudy Gay went down. I don't really believe that myself, but that's kinda the feeling I get with him.

Cano4prez
07-25-2011, 05:16 PM
Bosh..

NYKnickFanatic
07-25-2011, 05:36 PM
if zbo was never a knick, bosh would of won comfortably

And if Bosh was never on the Heat....

**** all you bandwagon Heat fans who are riding Bosh now and don't give a good reason why he should be #4.

Heat fans that give good reasoning to why he should be there are ok with me.

But **** the rest of you fake Heat "fans".

BlitzBlud4
07-25-2011, 05:38 PM
Probably should have said in my opinion, so i don't let my opinion off as fact, but yeah it is debatable in a sense. However, LMA hasn't shown me that he can be a factor defensively and Blake played one year of b-ball and to already label him a top 5 PF is a bit of a stretch to me especailly with holes in his game still. Z-bo isn't top 5 to me for the same reasons I said LMA wasn't. He's a 20-10 guy, but he isn't good defensively and part of me feels like he was a product of getting more shots once Rudy Gay went down. I don't really believe that myself, but that's kinda the feeling I get with him.

I guess that makes sense but Im basing it more off of production during the season than potential, and to me, Randolph Griffin and Aldridge were better than Bosh in 2010/2011. And Bosh isn't that great of a defender himself, and he's not that much better than the players listed. I guess people have Bosh ranked ahead of them because he's a 3rd option on a team that made the Finals.

mightybosstone
07-25-2011, 05:44 PM
And if Bosh was never on the Heat....

**** all you bandwagon Heat fans who are riding Bosh now and don't give a good reason why he should be #4.

Heat fans that give good reasoning to why he should be there are ok with me.

But **** the rest of you fake Heat "fans".

Umm... I'm not a Heat "fan" of any kind. I'm a Rockets' fan. Bosh is better than Randolph. Period.

naps
07-25-2011, 06:00 PM
Bosh should have been #3 or may be even #2. He was the most consistent throughout the regular season and playoffs out of all PFs not named Dirk and put up great numbers as a 3rd option. Also he went the farthest in the playoffs unlike anyone else on this list.

Will 2 BE
07-25-2011, 06:24 PM
Plain and simple this is a year by year comparison, and imo, this year Z-Bo outplayed Bosh. In the long run i thin Bosh will have the better career, but after this past season i just cant go with him over Z-Bo

Cal827
07-25-2011, 06:36 PM
Bosh. He might not be as much of a scorer since joining the heat, he can still play quite well (I feel the drop of is completely due to Wade/Lebron and their need for the ball taking shots away from him). His rebounding has fallen off though, and I can't really explain that. His defense has improved in Miami's system. Love should be next, then Aldridge then Randolph.

ManRam
07-25-2011, 07:01 PM
Which is why Dwight is leaving. Never should have traded Turkoglu, Lewis, Lee... F'd up the chemistry.

Turk, Lewis and Lee wouldn't get any votes in any of these either. Neither is Vince. Not really much of a point here. Hedo wasn't traded either, he left via FA.

justinnum1
07-25-2011, 07:06 PM
bosh for sure

greg_ory_2005
07-25-2011, 07:09 PM
I'll say Bosh.

SteBO
07-25-2011, 07:09 PM
I guess that makes sense but Im basing it more off of production during the season than potential, and to me, Randolph Griffin and Aldridge were better than Bosh in 2010/2011. And Bosh isn't that great of a defender himself, and he's not that much better than the players listed. I guess people have Bosh ranked ahead of them because he's a 3rd option on a team that made the Finals.
It's really the numbers Bosh put up as a third option. 19 and 8 is pretty damn good for a guy that went from 24 and 11 as a first option in Toronto to now. Plus, he went to the Finals and was arguably the most consistent out of the three throughout the playoffs. I don't see how LMA is better than Bosh when he plays little D if any. Bosh became a pretty solid defender in my eyes. I know Griffin can dunk the ball, but does he have a mid-range game? Post game? Right now, all he can do is dunk and rebound from what I've seen. Also, the Clippers play in a pretty fast system, which historically has been known to up the numbers in the points department. Same scenario occured with Bosh in Toronto, and many Raptor fans would agree with me. Randolph, again, doesn't play a lick of defense. Bosh does.

theheatles
07-25-2011, 07:41 PM
And if Bosh was never on the Heat....

**** all you bandwagon Heat fans who are riding Bosh now and don't give a good reason why he should be #4.

Heat fans that give good reasoning to why he should be there are ok with me.

But **** the rest of you fake Heat "fans".


:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

:laugh:


if bosh wasn't on the heat he would have went 2nd-3rd (he is falling because ppl hate the heat and zbo is getting love bcuz he was a knick and the knicks have a large fan base who hate the heat and will vote zbo to spite bosh

IversonIsKrazy
07-25-2011, 07:51 PM
Randolph no doubt to me. I'm canadian, so I watched Bosh quite a bit, there's a big difference between the Bosh of Toronto, and Bosh of Miami. In Miami, Bosh barely ever creates his own shot, only 1 or 2 baskets a game now are actually created by himself. Randolph carried his team over Duncan and the Spurs this year, something Bosh could never do. Zach >> Bosh. no doubt to me.

JasonJohnHorn
07-25-2011, 08:12 PM
Where the fawk is tim duncan on this list!!!!!!!

Seriously! Louis Scola? Elton Brand? David West? Paul Millsap? You put swap Tim Duncan out for Bosh and Miami sweeps Dallas! You swap Boozer out for Duncan and its the Bulls in the NBA finals.

No respect man. No respect.

JasonJohnHorn
07-25-2011, 08:20 PM
For monsterous statistical reasons, I went love. However, if bosh doesn't win this poll or the next, it's simple bosh/miami hate, plain and simple. A third option pf going 19 and 8 for a whole season is a top 5 pf in this league. It's not debatable.

I'd put Griffen and Love over Bosh, without hating. I think if the Clippers offered Griffen for Bosh you'd have a big old smile on your face! Same deal if Minny called up with Love.

That said, I do hate Miami ;-) lol But I'd still put Bosh right afer Love and Griffen... and maybe Garnett would squeak in there because of his defence.

tredigs
07-25-2011, 08:28 PM
Where the fawk is tim duncan on this list!!!!!!!

Seriously! Louis Scola? Elton Brand? David West? Paul Millsap? You put swap Tim Duncan out for Bosh and Miami sweeps Dallas! You swap Boozer out for Duncan and its the Bulls in the NBA finals.

No respect man. No respect.

Uh, yeahh... Did you miss Tim Duncan's play this season or in the playoffs? During the season he was still effective in his limited minutes, but he was flat out terrible/dominated in the playoffs and quite frankly is becoming a shell of his former self.

Aside from that, he's not on the list because Tim Duncan is/has been a center at this point. He'll be on that list.

JasonJohnHorn
07-25-2011, 08:30 PM
Bosh should have been #3 or may be even #2. He was the most consistent throughout the regular season and playoffs out of all PFs not named Dirk and put up great numbers as a 3rd option. Also he went the farthest in the playoffs unlike anyone else on this list.

Power forwards are supposed to do three things above and beyond all others: Score, defend and rebound. You cannot honestly say that Bosh was a consistent rebounder throughout the season, because he simply wasnt. For the first have of the season you'd see him grab 5 rebounds one night, 9 the next and 7 the game after. He was FAR from consistent in this respect. As for scoring, the same can be said of that. Love, Randolph, LMA and Griffen all outrebounded Bosh, and all outscored him. And Love was perhaps the most consistent player in the NBA with his consecutive double-double streak. Plus Love has a sweet three point shot.

And lets face it, Bosh is not known for his defence. His d is respectable at best and is certainly not a deal break amongst the players I have listed here.


Bosh is an all-star, but this year he wasn't better than Love, Blake, LMA or Z-bo. He just wasn't. Swap out any of those guys with Bosh, and the Heat win the NBA finals.

Swashcuff
07-25-2011, 08:32 PM
Where the fawk is tim duncan on this list!!!!!!!

Seriously! Louis Scola? Elton Brand? David West? Paul Millsap? You put swap Tim Duncan out for Bosh and Miami sweeps Dallas! You swap Boozer out for Duncan and its the Bulls in the NBA finals.

No respect man. No respect.

TD played the C almost exclusively this past season. Really won't be fair to compare him to guys who played exclusively against PFs. If TD is here then should Al Horford, Al Jefferson and Nene.

JasonJohnHorn
07-25-2011, 08:33 PM
Uh, yeahh... Did you miss Tim Duncan's play this season or in the playoffs? During the season he was still effective in his limited minutes, but he was flat out terrible/dominated in the playoffs and quite frankly is becoming a shell of his former self.

Aside from that, he's not on the list because Tim Duncan is/has been a center at this point. He'll be on that list.

You are breaking my heart friend. Splitter and Dice were handling C duties with Blair and Bonner stepping in from time to time. But I digress.

Lets get back to LMA, Love, Z-bo and Blake all being better than Bosh.

Cano4prez
07-25-2011, 08:34 PM
Power forwards are supposed to do three things above and beyond all others: Score, defend and rebound. You cannot honestly say that Bosh was a consistent rebounder throughout the season, because he simply wasnt. For the first have of the season you'd see him grab 5 rebounds one night, 9 the next and 7 the game after. He was FAR from consistent in this respect. As for scoring, the same can be said of that. Love, Randolph, LMA and Griffen all outrebounded Bosh, and all outscored him. And Love was perhaps the most consistent player in the NBA with his consecutive double-double streak. Plus Love has a sweet three point shot.

And lets face it, Bosh is not known for his defence. His d is respectable at best and is certainly not a deal break amongst the players I have listed here.


Bosh is an all-star, but this year he wasn't better than Love, Blake, LMA or Z-bo. He just wasn't. Swap out any of those guys with Bosh, and the Heat win the NBA finals.

Wrong

Swashcuff
07-25-2011, 08:36 PM
Power forwards are supposed to do three things above and beyond all others: Score, defend and rebound. You cannot honestly say that Bosh was a consistent rebounder throughout the season, because he simply wasnt. For the first have of the season you'd see him grab 5 rebounds one night, 9 the next and 7 the game after. He was FAR from consistent in this respect. As for scoring, the same can be said of that. Love, Randolph, LMA and Griffen all outrebounded Bosh, and all outscored him. And Love was perhaps the most consistent player in the NBA with his consecutive double-double streak. Plus Love has a sweet three point shot.

And lets face it, Bosh is not known for his defence. His d is respectable at best and is certainly not a deal break amongst the players I have listed here.


Bosh is an all-star, but this year he wasn't better than Love, Blake, LMA or Z-bo. He just wasn't. Swap out any of those guys with Bosh, and the Heat win the NBA finals.

Other than KG, Brand, Millsap (arguable) and Smith who do you think on the poll is better than Bosh defensively?

SteBO
07-25-2011, 08:36 PM
I'd put Griffen and Love over Bosh, without hating. I think if the Clippers offered Griffen for Bosh you'd have a big old smile on your face! Same deal if Minny called up with Love.

That said, I do hate Miami ;-) lol But I'd still put Bosh right afer Love and Griffen... and maybe Garnett would squeak in there because of his defence.
I'll have to see consistency out of Griffin to deem him better today. Griffin has no offensive game outside of dunking, and I have yet to see him defend. I'll concede the rebounding department. Bosh averaged 8 rebounds this year in a new system, so I give him a pass on that and he defended better than he ever has in his 8 year career in the NBA. I shouldn't have to explain the PPG aspect either.

I would just love for someone to explain to me how Zach Randolph, Lamaracus Aldridge, Blake Griffin, and Kevin Love are better on both sides of the ball than Bosh. Funny thing is, I voted Kevin Love for #4 because the man averaged 21 points and 15 rebounds.

Swashcuff
07-25-2011, 08:44 PM
You are breaking my heart friend. Splitter and Dice were handling C duties with Blair and Bonner stepping in from time to time. But I digress.

Lets get back to LMA, Love, Z-bo and Blake all being better than Bosh.

Do you have any facts to support any of these statements?

JLynn943
07-25-2011, 08:48 PM
Z-Bo again....

Swashcuff
07-25-2011, 08:53 PM
I'll have to see consistency out of Griffin to deem him better today. Griffin has no offensive game outside of dunking, and I have yet to see him defend. I'll concede the rebounding department. Bosh averaged 8 rebounds this year in a new system, so I give him a pass on that and he defended better than he ever has in his 8 year career in the NBA. I shouldn't have to explain the PPG aspect either.

I would just love for someone to explain to me how Zach Randolph, Lamaracus Aldridge, Blake Griffin, and Kevin Love are better on both sides of the ball than Bosh. Funny thing is, I voted Kevin Love for #4 because the man averaged 21 points and 15 rebounds.

You know what's funny, I voted Love here thinking that I'd be spending most of my time defending him here but with some of stuff being said about Bosh I've ended up defending him more than Love.

SteBO
07-25-2011, 09:00 PM
You know what's funny, I voted Love here thinking that I'd be spending most of my time defending him here but with some of stuff being said about Bosh I've ended up defending him more than Love.
It's unfortunate, because I feel like Bosh is getting slighted because he didn't average 24 points and 11 rebounds like he did the year before in Toronto. When you go from option #1, to #3 in an entirely new system offensively and defensively, averaging 19 PPG and 8 RPG is pretty damn good and on pretty efficient shooting. I wouldn't say great efficiency, but pretty solid imo.

I also find it comical that people are actually telling me that because Bosh isn't known as a defender, that he is incapable of defending when the stats tell you that he's actually been the anchor of our defense at times this year. A defense that was #5 in the league no less. :rolleyes: Randolph hasn't done that yet, and neither has Griffin or Aldridge. Love hasn't done that either, but again, 21 and 15 is insane numbers.

Avenged
07-25-2011, 09:03 PM
Mr. 20 and 15 for me. He's the most efficient out of the bunch being mentioned and is a rebounding machine. Leads Bosh in PER, WS, WS/48, rebounds, assists, and has a higher true shooting percentage.

After Love, I have Randolph. He put up a good regular season (arguably better than some being mentioned in this thread) and took it up a notch once the playoffs came around.

dwadefan03
07-25-2011, 09:13 PM
Its gotta be bosh....you can call me a homer but to say bosh isnt in the top 4-5 pf in the league is false

ewmania
07-25-2011, 09:27 PM
im going with z-bo... 20pg, 12rebounds 2assists 50% from the field... helped a underdog team beat the best team in the NBA

z-bo is highly underrated

SteBO
07-25-2011, 09:28 PM
im going with z-bo... 20pg, 12rebounds 2assists 50% from the field... helped a underdog team beat the best team in the NBA

z-bo is highly underrated
Apparently Bosh is too by some in this thread.

ewmania
07-25-2011, 09:33 PM
Apparently Bosh is too by some in this thread.

true, to be honest bosh was getting my next vote... and yeah bosh played very well in the playoffs, but far as players and season goes z-bo kind of takes the cake

memphis was a 8th seed but they would of been in the 5th spot in the east so they had a pretty good record

RevisIsland
07-25-2011, 09:36 PM
Anyone who voted Chris Bosh over Zbo after what we just saw in the playoffs should be ashamed.

Redbull
07-25-2011, 09:39 PM
Z-Bo for me, I can't believe Boozer has two votes.

Knicks21
07-25-2011, 09:40 PM
Im feeling Aldridge here, carried that portland team all year long.

gaughan333
07-25-2011, 09:43 PM
Who voted for carlos boozer? That was most certainly the wrong choice

Avenged
07-25-2011, 09:51 PM
Apparently Bosh is too by some in this thread.

He's leading this poll and will most likely win it. You can't get everyone to agree with one another, especially not here in this forum.

You voted for Love, but Bosh is going to beat him out significantly so I don't think Bosh is being underrated here.

SteBO
07-25-2011, 10:01 PM
He's leading this poll and will most likely win it. You can't get everyone to agree with one another, especially not here in this forum.

You voted for Love, but Bosh is going to beat him out significantly so I don't think Bosh is being underrated here.
By some in this thread, he most definitely is. I'm not trying to do what you're claiming, but I have yet to see anyone prove to me that Bosh wasn't a factor on the defensive side of the floor, and how he played as the non-focal point, though he should've been at times. I vote Love expecting to be defending him, though I'll be doing that in the next thread, and now I end up defending Bosh like a machine. Funny how things don't go the wawy you expect them to. I'm just glad people aren't blinded are at least willing to consider other options, as opposed to having their heels dug in the sand.

NYKnickFanatic
07-25-2011, 10:10 PM
Umm... I'm not a Heat "fan" of any kind. I'm a Rockets' fan. Bosh is better than Randolph. Period.

From Texas? Oh ok then...


:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

:laugh:


if bosh wasn't on the heat he would have went 2nd-3rd (he is falling because ppl hate the heat and zbo is getting love bcuz he was a knick and the knicks have a large fan base who hate the heat and will vote zbo to spite bosh

**** you.

theheatles
07-25-2011, 10:12 PM
**** you.

:lift::lift::lift::lift::lift:

:win::win::win::win::win:

Ovratd1up
07-25-2011, 10:52 PM
It was in between Love and KG, so I went with Z-Bo.

At least there's solid discussion and no clear cut winners.

MGB
07-25-2011, 11:17 PM
Am I missing something? Why the F isn't Duncan even an option?!? Unless you're considering him a center (which I do b/c of his size and game), it's ludicrous to not have him even in consideration among the likes of Elton Brand and Luis Scola...

Hawkeye15
07-25-2011, 11:23 PM
I have been voting for Bosh for 2 polls now, and it appears he may not win this one (we shall see). If he does, I am going to be all over Love over Randolph in the next vote. Sorry, the goldfish memory of fans is ridiculous. Love was superior in so many ways this regular season, and yet many of you base your argument on less than 15 games.

Punk
07-26-2011, 12:05 AM
Lol Heat fans.

Z-Bo is getting a ton of votes because he transformed into one of the best PFs in the league in the playoffs. Just like Dirk did, difference is Dirk won a title but both took their game and career to a whole new level.

Bosh did not.

Anyone who thinks Z-Bo is getting love because he was a Knick is an idiot. Straight up. He impressed the hell out of everyone in the league.

mightybosstone
07-26-2011, 12:54 AM
Lol Heat fans.

Z-Bo is getting a ton of votes because he transformed into one of the best PFs in the league in the playoffs. Just like Dirk did, difference is Dirk won a title but both took their game and career to a whole new level.

Bosh did not.

Anyone who thinks Z-Bo is getting love because he was a Knick is an idiot. Straight up. He impressed the hell out of everyone in the league.

Unless you win a title, a single postseason does not suddenly make you a significantly better player. Yes, Randolph had a good postseason. So did Bosh. At the end of the day, if you look at their style of play and their overall careers, and you had to make a decision between the two, you'd be a fool to take Randolph over Bosh.

Eagles4Lyfe
07-26-2011, 01:33 AM
Wow lmao zbo's actually toe to toe with Bosh

Eagles4Lyfe
07-26-2011, 01:35 AM
Unless you win a title, a single postseason does not suddenly make you a significantly better player. Yes, Randolph had a good postseason. So did Bosh. At the end of the day, if you look at their style of play and their overall careers, and you had to make a decision between the two, you'd be a fool to take Randolph over Bosh.

If were voting on overall careers than Tim Duncan would easily be number 1. Playoffs or not Z-bo is still more efficient than Bosh offensively, but Bosh is slightly better defensively.
Its not crazy to think Zbo's better than Bosh and definitely not foolish.

CHANGO
07-26-2011, 01:44 AM
Unless you win a title, a single postseason does not suddenly make you a significantly better player. Yes, Randolph had a good postseason. So did Bosh. At the end of the day, if you look at their style of play and their overall careers, and you had to make a decision between the two, you'd be a fool to take Randolph over Bosh.

:clap:

The same. Fans have short memories, follow fashion and forget the past. In the past Randolph was a "black hole" now suddenly is the best.

This person explains it better.


Royce Young, Daily Thunder: It's the ever-changing answer depending on who's hot at the time. After a big assist night, it's Rajon Rondo. After a crazy fourth-quarter takeover, it's Deron Williams. After an MVP, it's Derrick Rose. But there's one constant, one guy that's always good. And that's Chris Paul(Chris Bosh in this case). Still the best, no doubt.

bmd1101
07-26-2011, 02:13 AM
No love for LMA, I guess stepping up his game with a thin roster and carrying the team like he did doesn't count for much. Ya'll gotta remember how slow the Blazers played on offense, makes things a bit diff.

naps
07-26-2011, 02:20 AM
I want MODs to keep an eye on voters. Since this is another close voting, some dupes might pop up.

naps
07-26-2011, 02:29 AM
Power forwards are supposed to do three things above and beyond all others: Score, defend and rebound. You cannot honestly say that Bosh was a consistent rebounder throughout the season, because he simply wasnt. For the first have of the season you'd see him grab 5 rebounds one night, 9 the next and 7 the game after. He was FAR from consistent in this respect. As for scoring, the same can be said of that. Love, Randolph, LMA and Griffen all outrebounded Bosh, and all outscored him. And Love was perhaps the most consistent player in the NBA with his consecutive double-double streak. Plus Love has a sweet three point shot.

And lets face it, Bosh is not known for his defence. His d is respectable at best and is certainly not a deal break amongst the players I have listed here.


Bosh is an all-star, but this year he wasn't better than Love, Blake, LMA or Z-bo. He just wasn't. Swap out any of those guys with Bosh, and the Heat win the NBA finals.


Take off your hater glass (you are a self-proclaimed Heat hater) and you know what rationality means. There are so many things wrong on this post it's not even funny.

Sadds The Gr8
07-26-2011, 02:31 AM
Zbo > Rupaul

THE GIPPER
07-26-2011, 02:54 AM
Zbo > Rupaul

Would you be saying this if bosh was still a raptor?

Sadds The Gr8
07-26-2011, 03:05 AM
Would you be saying this if bosh was still a raptor?

yes.

ewmania
07-26-2011, 06:04 AM
last time i checked this was about the best of the season and not back then or whatever if thats the case tim duncan should be number #1 Lmao

anyway z-bo stats were insane this season & playoffs... bosh had a good playoff run but z-bo basically took over and was hitting clutch shots

millerandco
07-26-2011, 06:29 AM
LaMarcus Aldridge gets no love

SteBO
07-26-2011, 08:41 AM
Someone brought up dupes, I'm tellin you now that there aren't any so far. Looks like Z-Bo is going to win this one fairly.

pebloemer
07-26-2011, 09:01 AM
last time i checked this was about the best of the season and not back then or whatever if thats the case tim duncan should be number #1 Lmao

anyway z-bo stats were insane this season & playoffs... bosh had a good playoff run but z-bo basically took over and was hitting clutch shots

That was never stated. The question is who is a better player, right now. Otherwise a player like Elton Brand couldn't have been ranked 6th in 2008 after a season in which he played 8 games...

This past season would be weighed very heavily in a dicussion about best player right now, but past success, controversy, injuries (signifying durability) all comes into play as well. If I know a player has what it takes to lead his team to a championship based on his history, that factors into my discussion. If I know a player has had many difficulties adapting to different teams, organizations, that factors into my perception of the player.

Obviously Tim Duncan is not the best PF in the NBA today. Exaggerating a concept to extreme proportions is a weak argumentative tool.

JasonJohnHorn
07-26-2011, 09:16 AM
Take off your hater glass (you are a self-proclaimed Heat hater) and you know what rationality means. There are so many things wrong on this post it's not even funny.

Then tell me what's wrong? Back your words up. Love, Blake, Z-Bo and LMA all out-rebounded and outscored Bosh this season. Did they have as much team successs? No. But neither did they have James and Wade carrying the load for them. All these guys got as far or further than Bosh did his last two years with Toronto, which means they either missed the playoffs like Bosh did without two future HOFers carrying the load for him, or they made the playoffs (like Z-Bo and LMA) UNLIKE Bosh did his last couple seasons in TO.

Bosh was an inconsisted scorer and rebounder all season. You never knew what you were going to get from the guy. Love had one of the most consistent seasons in NBA history with his double-double streak.

So you think I'm wrong. Fine. Prove me wrong. Just saying I'm wrong doesn't count worth $#!T in my book.

Well all know what Bosh did in TO with no talent around him: Nothing.

We all know how inconsistent he was the first 3/4 of the season this year.

We all know that Blake, Z-Bo, Love and LMA all outscored and out rebounded Bosh.

We all know that none of these guys are head and shoulders above any other when it comes to defence (Bosh, in fact, was such a liability that James had to take over the defensive duties on Dirk in the finals).

So you tell me why Bosh is clearly better than these guys?

Do I hate Miami? Yes. Is LBJ the best player in the league. Yes. Is Wade the best shooting guard in the NBA not named Kobe? Yes. Is Bosh an All-Star? Yes. Is Haslem a work horse on the glass? Yes. Is Mike Miller one of the best rebounding guards in the league? Yes. I have no problem admitting how good the players on Miami are. I just don't like the way the team was built. Doesn't make me wrong about Bosh.

So you got something to back your $#!T up, lets hear it. If not, then you may want to keep your mouth shut in future, because just telling people they are wrong without backing it up counts for nothing around here.

JasonJohnHorn
07-26-2011, 09:39 AM
Do you have any facts to support any of these statements?


I'm not sure which you are speaking to. As for my assessment that I'd think THIS SEASON, Z-bo, LMA, Blake and Love are all better, I have spoke to that in other posts. As for Duncan being a power forward:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2011.html

You can see that Bonners played 21 minutes a game. He is a center. Splitter played 12, he is also a center. That has the center position up to 33 minutes a game. And Dice played 19 minutes a game, usually playing both center and PF depending on what was required of him, so that have the C position filled by people other than Duncan for at least 40 minutes a game, and I havent even spoke to Blair, who, though undersized for the position, played center much of last season and some of this season.

Coupled with that Duncan was listed as a PF on the all-star voting, and on the all-NBA first team voting.

And in contrast, Amare, who lets face it, is the only guy getting minutes at center in NY, was called a C for all-NBA voting purposes. Sure, it could be argued that NY just played without a center this year and just ran 4 forwards and a PG for most of the season, but the bottom line is, Amare played center more than anybody on NY, and yet he is listed as a PF in this pole.

I think it is fair to put Duncan on the list for PF. It is the position he is listed as on the All-star ballot, it is the position he has always played and it is the position he was listed as for All-NBA voting.



As for the players being better than Bosh.

Zbo and LMA did something Bosh didnt do the last to years in TO. They lead their teams to the playoffs. Portland was depleted by injuries all year in a tough western conference and LMA still got them in the playoffs. Put Bosh on that team and they hit the lottery, just like TO. Zbo admittedly had more talent than TO did, but he also was a leader and lead his underdog team, and 8th seed, to a win over the team with the best record in the West. I recall Bosh leadning the Raptors to failure in the first round when they had home court, and not doing anything with them since.

As for Griffen and Love, they both out rebounded and outscored Bosh this season, and posted numbers that were more impressive than his than Bosh's in comprable seasons. Bosh's career averages are not even as high as Blake's, and Blake has only been in the league one year. He practically double Bosh's rookie season out put. Love has an amazing three-point shot, and posted a scoring average that is nearly as impressive as any Bosh ever posted and a rebounding average that makes Bosh look like a PG. Did they both miss the playoffs? Yes, as Bosh did the last couple years with TO. Love had Beasley and Darko. Blake had Mo Williams and Eric Gordon. Bosh had Wade and James. Of course his team did better.

Bottom line, if we are looking at individual players and their performances, then Bosh is falling behind these guys this year. His numbers simply do not add up. If we are going be team success only, then Duncan should be on this list and Blake and Love and every other power forward who missed the playoffs should be dropped from the list.

Swashcuff
07-26-2011, 09:54 AM
I'm not sure which you are speaking to. As for my assessment that I'd think THIS SEASON, Z-bo, LMA, Blake and Love are all better, I have spoke to that in other posts. As for Duncan being a power forward:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2011.html

You can see that Bonners played 21 minutes a game. He is a center. Splitter played 12, he is also a center. That has the center position up to 33 minutes a game. And Dice played 19 minutes a game, usually playing both center and PF depending on what was required of him, so that have the C position filled by people other than Duncan for at least 40 minutes a game, and I havent even spoke to Blair, who, though undersized for the position, played center much of last season and some of this season.

Coupled with that Duncan was listed as a PF on the all-star voting, and on the all-NBA first team voting.

And in contrast, Amare, who lets face it, is the only guy getting minutes at center in NY, was called a C for all-NBA voting purposes. Sure, it could be argued that NY just played without a center this year and just ran 4 forwards and a PG for most of the season, but the bottom line is, Amare played center more than anybody on NY, and yet he is listed as a PF in this pole.

I think it is fair to put Duncan on the list for PF. It is the position he is listed as on the All-star ballot, it is the position he has always played and it is the position he was listed as for All-NBA voting.


Before I respond to the rest of your post I'll just respond to this.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10SAS20.HTM

Basketball reference also lists Nene as a PF and Iguodala as a SG. There position disparity #s are in no way accurate. 82games.com numbers are however. Duncan exclusively played the C for San Antonio Last season and it was evident when you watch them.

Look at Duncan's minutes per pos he exclusively played the C also look at his

As for the ASG ballot. That is the biggest piece of garbage there is. Amar'e was listed as a C on the All Star Ballot for 3 seasons in Phx no one thought he was a C. Suddenly when he comes over to the East (Dwight Howard will obviously be the starter) he becomes a F, coincidentally he played more C in NY than anytime in his career in Phx outside of 04-05.

All his All NBA selections including this one he has been chosen as a C. Do you really think Amar'e is a C and shouldn't be on this poll because by your reasoning that's what you are getting at.

claffyT
07-26-2011, 10:22 AM
Kevin Love should win the next poll easily

Swashcuff
07-26-2011, 10:26 AM
As for the players being better than Bosh.

Zbo and LMA did something Bosh didnt do the last to years in TO. They lead their teams to the playoffs. Portland was depleted by injuries all year in a tough western conference and LMA still got them in the playoffs. Put Bosh on that team and they hit the lottery, just like TO. Zbo admittedly had more talent than TO did, but he also was a leader and lead his underdog team, and 8th seed, to a win over the team with the best record in the West. I recall Bosh leadning the Raptors to failure in the first round when they had home court, and not doing anything with them since.

Tell me something. Do you have any factual evidence to support any of these claims because without that there are just your opinions. This was Aldridge's best year and his team was indeed depleted. Tell me this however in TO did Bosh ever play in a proven and effective system under one of the best head coaches in the NBA?

If you think this game is only played on the court then you couldn't be more mistaken. Despite Porland's frontline facing a plethora of injuries the 1,2,3 starters (Miller, Batum, Matthews) played in 242 combined games last season. Lamarcus anchored the front line but they had a very good back court who remained healthy.

If you compare Bosh's best season in TO and Lamarcus's of last there really is no comparison Bosh has him beat all ends up. But when you play alongside Bargs, Calderon etc in a high paced system with no D and a knucklehead coach there is no way you can take that team any further than he did. The way Bosh played in the first half of his last season in TO neither Randolph nor Lamarcus played up to that level at anytime last season. No point in time. Bosh can produce make no mistake about that.


As for Griffen and Love, they both out rebounded and outscored Bosh this season, and posted numbers that were more impressive than his than Bosh's in comprable seasons. Bosh's career averages are not even as high as Blake's, and Blake has only been in the league one year. He practically double Bosh's rookie season out put. Love has an amazing three-point shot, and posted a scoring average that is nearly as impressive as any Bosh ever posted and a rebounding average that makes Bosh look like a PG. Did they both miss the playoffs? Yes, as Bosh did the last couple years with TO. Love had Beasley and Darko. Blake had Mo Williams and Eric Gordon. Bosh had Wade and James. Of course his team did better.

Really J you are going to use rebounding and scoring when they were both #1 options and Bosh was a #3. Are you really going to use that? I think you can come better than that.

Bosh's career averages aren't as high as Blake's own? Smh. Blake just came off a Rookie PF season unlike any we've seen in NBA history if you take into account PPG, RPG and APG. OBVIOUSLY Bosh's career #s aren't as good as Blake own, hell NO PF in the league has better career averages than Blake in terms of a combination of PTs/RBs/Asts.

I chose Love ahead of Bosh so I will not argue that BUT I certainly did not choose Love because of the reasons you stated.


Bottom line, if we are looking at individual players and their performances, then Bosh is falling behind these guys this year. His numbers simply do not add up. If we are going be team success only, then Duncan should be on this list and Blake and Love and every other power forward who missed the playoffs should be dropped from the list.

Tell me what exactly did you use to measure these individuals. Because when comparing a #1 options with a #3 using PPG and RPG are pretty ignorant.

What #s are you talking about? You mean per game. Well tell me this. Give any of these players you put ahead of Bosh LeBron and Wade. Who out of the bunch will be able to keep their average? Which one of these players are 20+ ppg scorers with 2 top 5 scorers in the league playing alongside them?

I'll answer that question for you none.

Using per game metrics to evaluate a player's worth when comparing a #1 vs a #3 isn't the best way to go. It wouldn't tell you half the story.

I love how you also spoke of one side of the ball with no mention of Defense in your entire post. Why not mention that Bosh was an improved defensive player and on another level from any of these players you mentioned. I would love to see you try to prove otherwise because I've already posted the facts earlier in this thread to support my claim.

Swashcuff
07-26-2011, 10:33 AM
:clap:

The same. Fans have short memories, follow fashion and forget the past. In the past Randolph was a "black hole" now suddenly is the best.

This person explains it better.

For the black hole his still is this is %100 true. Zach is my dude and I didn't wanna post this but since you mentioned it i just had to.


Power Forwards Pos G Min MPG T/Min %Pass %Shoot %Fouled %TO
Zach Randolph PF 52 1929 37.1 0.89 30.4% 50.0% 13.6% 6.0%
La Aldridge PF 56 2206 39.4 1.00 33.1% 46.7% 14.6% 5.6%
Elton Brand PF 55 1910 34.7 0.71 34.1% 48.2% 12.0% 5.7%
A Stoudemire PF 53 1949 36.8 1.18 34.9% 43.0% 14.5% 7.7%
Chris Bosh PF 52 1863 35.8 0.88 35.4% 44.7% 14.4% 5.5%
Kevin Love PF 56 2058 36.8 0.96 38.4% 39.8% 15.8% 6.0%
David West PF 57 2006 35.2 1.02 39.2% 43.1% 11.8% 5.9%
Dirk Nowitzki PF 46 1574 34.2 1.12 39.6% 41.4% 13.8% 5.1%
Carlos Boozer PF 35 1138 32.5 1.10 40.1% 42.0% 10.6% 7.3%
Luis Scola PF 57 1911 33.5 1.05 40.3% 44.0% 10.4% 5.3%
Paul Millsap PF 56 1910 34.1 0.95 42.5% 40.4% 11.6% 5.5%
Blake Griffin PF 56 2123 37.9 1.25 43.4% 36.0% 14.8% 5.8%
Kevin Garnett PF 45 1409 31.3 0.98 46.3% 38.5% 10.0% 5.2%
Josh Smith PF 55 1927 35.0 1.17 50.4% 33.8% 9.0% 6.8%
Pau Gasol PF 57 2127 37.3 1.11 51.1% 33.3% 11.2% 4.4%


Of course they were more I just included the players in this poll.

At the mid way point of last season statistically speaking there was no bigger black hole at the PF position than Zach Randolph.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8847

NYKnickFanatic
07-26-2011, 10:48 AM
:lift::lift::lift::lift::lift:

:win::win::win::win::win:

I hate you. And Z-Bo still won. :p

theheatles
07-26-2011, 11:04 AM
looks like another poll with multi accounts...pathetic

NYKnickFanatic
07-26-2011, 11:36 AM
looks like another poll with multi accounts...pathetic

You sad bro? (http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSvS27K8JxV3xQNznZSyXAyhp48H7DCz EFAtyODuip-HuR2sLE5)