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View Full Version : NBA Mock Off-Season Playoffs - 4) New York Knicks vs. 5) Boston Celtics



Mile High Champ
07-22-2011, 11:13 AM
Hello Everyone,

Welcome to the NBA Mock Off-season Playoff voting. Every summer, between 50-65 PSD users participate in a game where each GM takes on the challenge of running the off-season for an NBA team. Those GM's are free to make trades, signings, pick up team option on players, conduct the draft etc as ways to help better improve their team. What we have here is the results of those GM's hard-work as we have now reached the playoffs.

Keep in mind when voting that teams have changed dramatically through the mock and many teams are operating with completely new starting line ups. So please take the time to look at the teams closely (depth chart and write up) before voting. Try to avoid being a homer and vote simply on who is the better team in the match up.

4) New York Knicks vs. 5) Boston Celtics


Knicks Have Home Court Advantage

Knicks Depth Chart

C: Dwight Howard (38) / Louis Amundson (10)
PF: Charlie Villanueva (28)/ Hakim Warrick (20)
SF: Carmelo Anthony (38) / Francisco Garcia (10)
SG: Keith Bogans (20)/ Anthony Parker (20)/ Francisco Garcia (8)
PG: Chauncey Billups (35)/ Jimmer Fredette (13)/ Earl Watson

Celtics Depth Chart

PG: Tony Parker / Aaron Brooks / Jonny Flynn / Anthony Carter
SG: Joe Johnson / Brandon Rush / James Posey
SF: Richard Jefferson / Jared Dudley / Andres Nocioni
PF: Amare Stoudemire / Ryan Anderson /
C:Kendrick Perkins / Omer Asik / Mehmet Okur

Knicks Write Up



Before I go into matchups, I want to break down this Knicks team. What has Dwight always been missing? A number one scorer to take the scoring load off, right? In comes Carmelo Anthony, one of the most gifted scorers in the game. Doubling Dwight in the paint will be next to impossible with an explosive scorer in Carmelo Anthony on the floor and good shooters around them. What is Carmelo Anthonyís weakness? Defense right? Well now he gets to play with that Dwight Howard guy. Together they make an absolutely lethal combo. But maybe they still need a vet to lead the team to the promise land right? Former Finals MVP Chauncey Billups is running the show and is the leader of this squad in the locker room.
Now you might be thinking, ďeww but they have Charlie Villanueva and Keith Bogans in the starting lineup!Ē But letís slow down and think about this. Bogans is a solid defender and can hit the three ball. All he needs to do is play 20 minutes of tough basketball. Now, although Charlie Villanueva may leave a bad taste in your mouth because of that disgusting contract of his, he is a very nice fit next to Dwight Howard. He can stretch the floor with his shooting and scoring ability and let Melo and Dwight operate. Also, Bogans and Charlie wonít need to log in hefty minutes. We have Hakim Warrick, Anthony Parker and Francisco Garcia off the bench to spell them.
Defensively, youíre probably wondering how a team with Melo and Charlie V are going to be good on D. Two words: Dwight Howard. The Orlando Magic were the 4th best defensive team in the league the last two years with the likes of Hedo Turkoglu, Jason Richardson and Rashard Lewis logging hefty minutes and starting. Why would this Knicks team be different? Iím not going to try to vouch for Charlie V as a solid defender, because, well heís not. But Carmelo Anthony, contrary to popular belief, is a very good man to man defender. He might wander off his man and not give 100% in the regular season on D but when the playoffs roll around you better believe that heís playing tough defense. Keith Bogans started for the best defensive team in the league this year. He is a fine fit. Chauncey Billups is getting up there in age but heís still a very savvy defender. Each one of these players would benefit greatly from playing with Dwight on defense. Now, onto the positional matchups:

Point Guard Matchup: Chauncey Billups vs Toney Parker:
Chauncey Billups is getting up there in age but heís still an extremely efficient scorer and a great three point shooter and leader. He recorded a TS% of 62%, good for fifth in the NBA. On this team he will only be asked to be the third option on the offensive end, and will again be able to be his efficient self. His leadership will also be key on both ends of the floor for this team. Tony Parker is coming off of a solid year statistically on the Spurs, but he lives in the paint. And in the paint is Dwight Howard. Dwight will be able to alter the shots of Parker and make him less effective on the offensive end. Also, Chaunceyís savvy defense will cause Tony Parker to force the issue and turn the ball over. In fact, Parker averages an abysmal five turnovers per game in his last five games versus Billups. Because of Billupsís role on this team, his efficiency and the Dwight Howard effect in the paint, this matchup is a draw.

Shooting Guard Matchup: Keith Bogans vs. Joe Johnson
Now we know that the Celtics win this matchup handily. Joe Johnson is the superior player here. But he is known for his terrible playoff performances. He just disappears in some games. Against the Bulls this year in the playoffs, Joe Johnson had only two games where he scored more than 20 points. The games when he was unable to score above 20 points, his team lost. Keith Bogans did a respectable job versus him this year and I donít see why that would change in this matchup. Joe Johnson may have a couple of big games, but thatís it. He isnít a consistent playoff performer and history proves that. Iíd also like to add that Keith Bogans was able to knock down 10 of 21 three point attempts versus Johnson and the Hawks this postseason. Nonetheless, Joe Johnson has the advantage here.

Small Forward Matchup: Carmelo Anthony vs. Richard Jefferson
This matchup is easily in Carmelo Anthonyís favor. He finally has the luxury of playing with a post option like Dwight and will thrive in this situation. RJ is a solid player but he is clearly declining and is coming off a disappointing year in San Antonio. Carmelo Anthony has average about 25 and 7 against RJ in their last six matchups and his stats would only get better against a declining RJ and a great post option in Dwight Howard. Carmelo definitely has the advantage here.

Power Forward Matchup: Charlie Villanueva vs. Amaríe Stoudemire
Amaríe will get his. He has a clear advantage here. However, Charlie will also get his. In their last two meetings, Charlie Villanueva has recorded 14 points (4-6 from 3) and 11 points (3-4 from 3). Amaríe is a terrible man to man defender. He lets players have career games versus him just to stay out of foul trouble. In this matchup, heíll either let Charlie V get free and bomb away from deep or get into foul trouble. Both good for the Knicks.

Center Matchup: Dwight Howard vs. Kendrick Perkins
Youíre probably thinking to yourself: ďOh this isnít a bad matchup for the Cís, Perk is a good defender.Ē Well you would be wrong. In the last three games of their playoff matchup in 2010 (this is a healthy Perkins mind you), Dwight averaged 27 points, 13 rebounds, and 3.3 blocks, all while shooting 65% from the field and getting Perkins in foul trouble. Itís going to be absolutely impossible to double Dwight with a superstar in Melo on the wing and good shooters around him. Heíd thrive as the second option. On defense, Dwight will be able to focus on help defense as Perkins is a pathetic offensive player. He will help to slow down Amaríe, JJ and Parker in the paint. Big advantage here for Dwight and the Knicks

Benches: Jimmer Fredette/Anthony Parker/Francisco Garcia/Hakim Warrick/Louis Amundson vs. Aaron Brooks/Brandon Rush/Jared Dudley/Omer Asik/Ryan Anderson
Jimmer is only going to have to play about thirteen minutes per game and provide outside scoring to stretch the floor. Parker is a good veteran presence off the bench who can shoot the three ball well and play good defense. Garcia is a talented wing player who can provide a nice scoring touch off the bench and really spread the floor well and score efficiently(15 pts/36min, 1.5-4 3PM/3PA, 55 TS%, 52 eFG%). Warrick and Amundson are high energy players who can provide sparks off the bench. Warrick is an ideal stretch 4 who can score and Amundson can provide good defense and rebounding. On their side, we see Aaron Brooks who is a very solid backup PG behind Parker, but had a terrible year and was haunted by injuries. Brandon Rush and Jared Dudley are two solid role playing wings off the bench, and Anderson and Okur are good big men off the bench. The combination of scoring, energy and defense of Jimmer, Garcia, Parker, Warrick and Amundson makes this a draw.

Now you look at the matchup and you see two draws, two advantages for the Celtics and two advantages for the Knicks. So you go to late game execution and superstar play. Can Joe Johnson shake off his awful playoff history and be a clutch scorer in the playoffs? Parker is a very good penetrator but heís not the guy you want to take the last shot. Melo and Billups are two of the clutchest players in the league. When the game is on the line there isnít a player in the league Iíd rather have with the ball than Carmelo Anthony, and Billups isnít called Mr. Big Shot for nothing. Dwight was able to carry a team of Hedo, Rashard Lewis, Courtney Lee to the finals. With a superstar along him and a great veteran leader, itís hard to believe that he is going to lose in the first round. Also, the mismatches at SF and C give the Knicks a huge advantage because double teaming would be out of the question with shooters like Charlie V, Anthony Parker, Keith Bogans, Chauncey Billups and Francisco Garcia and two bona-fide superstars. The star effect of Billups, Dwight and Melo has to be the deciding factor here. The Knicks would win in 7 games with home court advantage and a crazy Knicks crowd behind them.

Celtics Write Up


Point Guard

Tony Parker v. Chauncey Billups

Both players are veterans. Both have finals experience, and championship rings. Both are proven winners. The difference? Tony Parker is 29 and in the prime of his career and Billups is on the decline at age 34 (will be 35 next season). Parker is quicker, faster, and better rounded than Billups at this stage in his career. Parker proved a lot of critics wrong this past season, and showed that he can come back from injury and still play effectively. He started 78 games for the Spurs while averaging 17.5 points, 7 assists, and 3 boards. He shot his highest TS% (.570) in years, and added an impressive eFG% of .531. On top of that, Parker contributed .156 WS/48. When Tim Duncan was in his prime, Parker showed how dominant he can be on the pick and roll. With Amare on the floor, Parker will regain that dominance that made him a 3-time all star and world champion in San Antonio. Parker is truly in his prime while Billups is well past the wrong side of 30.

Shooting Guard

Joe Johnson v. Keith Bogans

Joe Johnson got one of the worst contracts in NBA history, that is no secret. Does that make him any worse of a player? I think not. He is still playing at an all-star caliber, and has proven that he can be a go-to player on the perimeter. Keith Bogans is a nice piece, and a solid bench player, but he doesnít stand a chance against Johnson. In 20 career matchups, Johnson has averaged 21 points, 5 assists and 4 rebounds while being guarded by Keith Bogans. Bogans on the other hand has averaged 7 points, 1 assist and 3 rebounds against Johnson. Furthermore, in head to head playoff matchups, Bogans has averaged 5 points on 42% shooting compared to Johnsonís 20 points on 49% shooting. Additionally, unlike with the Hawks, Joe Johnson would have infinitely less pressure on him with Parker, Amare and Jefferson on the floor with him. Joe just turned 30, and is still in the prime of his career. With a solid supporting cast, you will see how effective Joe Johnson can beÖEspecially when he has a vastly inferior player attempting to shut him down.

Small Forward

Richard Jefferson v. Carmelo Anthony

I wont sugar coat it Ė Melo is an absolute stud compared to Jefferson, but the matchup is a lot closer than you may think. In 14 career matchups, Carmelo averages 21 points on 42% shooting against Jefferson. Jefferson averages 17 points on 53% shooting against Melo. Surprisingly, Jefferson has done quite well throughout his career in head to head matchups against Carmelo. Jefferson shoots 49% from 3pt range, as well as the same amount of assists and one less rebound (head to head matchups). Melo shoots 37% from 3pt range in the same games. Some may think that Jefferson is on the backside of his career, but he just turned 31, and has drastically improved his defense and shooting percentages the last few years. Melo is the better player no doubt, but Jefferson has always had success against him.

Power Forward

Amare Stoudemire v. Charlie Villanueva

Charlie V. isnít as bad as some people may think, but the differential in talent in this matchup is immense. Amaríe is one of the most athletic players in the league, and one of the best players at his position. His defense is nothing to write home about, but he prides himself on his offensive prowess. In 10 career matchups, Amare has completely dominated Villanueva. In these head to head matchups, Amare averages 26 points, 9 rebounds and 2 assists while shooting 63% from the field. In the same games, Villanueva has averaged 11 points, 5 rebounds and 1 assist while shooting 45% from the field. In their last three matchups, Amare has outscored Villanueva by 60 points (90:30). On top of that, Amare has outrebounded Villanueva 33 to 7. While Villanueva is a serviceable role player, he has been completely dominated by Amare throughout his career.

Center

Kendrick Perkins v. Dwight Howard

Itís not news to anyone: Dwight is good. Great, even. Heís the leagueís most polarizing big man, and a legit franchise player. Heís a better all around player than Kendrick Perkins, and is certainly more valuable to a team. Perk is no slouch, however. My big man prides himself on playing great defense, and we have enough offensive firepower to hide his lack of an offensive game. In 22 head to head matchups, Dwight has averaged 16 points and 12 boards against Perk. Solid numbers, but is that type of performance going to win your team a playoff series? Not likely. In those head to head matchups, Dwight has also averaged over 3 turnovers per game, and has been held to 18 points or less in 4 of their last 5 matchups. Dwight is the better player, but if any center is capable of locking him down, itís Kendrick Perkins.

Bench

Celtics:
Aaron Brooks, Brandon Rush, Jared Dudley, Ryan Anderson, Omer Asik, James Posey, Mehmet Okur, Andres Nocioni, Anthony Carter, Jonny Flynn.

Knicks:
Jimmer Freddette, Anthony Parker, Francisco Garcia, Hakim Warrick, Louis Amundson, Earl Watson, Manny Harris.

If for some reason my starting lineup canít get the job done, my bench certainly can. The Celtics have arguably the best depth in the entire league. Aaron Brooks has been a capable starter in the NBA, and is one of the best backup point guards around. Brandon Rush is a very solid perimeter defender, and great shooter from deep. Jared Dudley has shot over 43% from 3 the last two years, while being capable on the defensive end as well. Ryan Anderson is a multi-talented forward that can play the 3 or 4, shoot from deep or work it in the post. Omer Asik is a great defensive player, and showed his value in his playoff run with the Bulls. On top of these players, we have veteran wings Andres Nocioni and James Posey, both of whom are excellent on the defensive end, and can contribute offensively as well. Okur has been a starter for the last decade, and has shown his value over the years. Heís a great shooter for a big man, and can still contribute to a championship contender. The Knicks depth simply does not stack up. My bench has youth, experience, shooters, defenders, and size.

X-Factor

Coaching

Everyone knows that Doc Rivers is a more accomplished coach than Mike DíAntoni. Rivers is great at managing veteran players, and stressing the importance of defense. As he has shown over the past few years in Boston, he is very capable at getting the most out of veterans, and getting them to buy in on the defensive end. Pierce and Allen were never considered good defenders before playing for Rivers, and they are both considered very solid on the defensive side of the ball.

DíAntoni on the other hand has never coached defense. The addition of Dwight helps, but he simply doesnít fit into DíAntoniís system. DíAntoni coached teams always score a ton, but they also get scored on a ton. My team has the offensive firepower and the defensive game-planning to dominate the Knicks in a playoff series. They simply donít matchup well with the Celtics, regardless of the fact that they have two superstars.

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 11:27 AM
The career numbers are misleading. RJ had his good games versus Melo when he was in his prime, not at this age. He's declining and the career numbers also have melo during his rookie season, etc when he wasn't in his prime like he is now.

sep11ie
07-22-2011, 11:32 AM
These are funny match ups. It's total domination on every position except PG, which I give to the C's due to depth. I was gonna say domination by Knicks, but the more I look at it, I say.....C's.

sep11ie
07-22-2011, 11:33 AM
I do think it would go to 7 games, and wouldn't be surprised if the Knicks won.

SteBO
07-22-2011, 11:37 AM
Celtics in 7. Their depth here is solid imo.

rapjuicer06
07-22-2011, 11:41 AM
Great series, great match up. Dwight and Perkins isn't a good match up, Dwight would beat him up and down the floor. Where it takes a bit of a turn for me is the Amare Vs CV. Amare would kill CV...Billups wouldn't be able to keep up with Parker, and Joe Johnson would shoot all over Bogans (very overrated defender). While Dwight and Melo would play very well, so would Amare/Parker/Johnson. Dwight would need a lot of shots to be really affective so that'd limit Melo a bit. And the Celtics bench is far better

Sadds The Gr8
07-22-2011, 11:42 AM
was originally gonna take the Knicks, but i never realized how damn deep the Celtics are. They also have Perkins who can somewhat handle Dwight. I don't see anyone on the Knicks stopping Amar'e or Tony Parker as well. Celtics in 6 or 7 IMO.

NYKalltheway
07-22-2011, 11:44 AM
sorry Knicks... ;p

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-22-2011, 11:45 AM
Knicks in 5.

Mile High Champ
07-22-2011, 11:47 AM
I really like the Knicks here. As much as Amare would have a big series, I think Howard would be even bigger. He would absolutely eat whoever the Celtics threw at him inside. I could also see Dwight covering Amare for a bit which would likely help contain him. Also after seeing Perkins this past season, I no longer regards his defense as anything better than average.

Jetsguy
07-22-2011, 11:47 AM
I just dont think the C's can stop d12 Especially with Melo and Chauncey outside knicking down jumpers

jimbobjarree
07-22-2011, 11:50 AM
I'm not going to vote here because hopefully we play the winner, and you'll just think I'm voting for the weaker team. I actually in all honesty would vote for the celtics though, I see them coming through this one.

Corey
07-22-2011, 12:14 PM
Coaching, depth, and a starting roster that compliments each other very well. Yummy.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-22-2011, 12:17 PM
I was about to take the Knicks but then saw the benches and the Celtics are much better there so Celtics.

Corey
07-22-2011, 12:17 PM
The career numbers are misleading. RJ had his good games versus Melo when he was in his prime, not at this age. He's declining and the career numbers also have melo during his rookie season, etc when he wasn't in his prime like he is now.

31 years old is over the hill?

Someone thinks RJ is older than he is, methinks.

rapjuicer06
07-22-2011, 12:24 PM
RJ isn't over the hill. The guy was a monster from three this past year and plays some pretty good defense. I like him matched up against Melo. Won't outscore him, but will make him work for his points

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 12:32 PM
31 years old is over the hill?

Someone thinks RJ is older than he is, methinks.

Well he's not in his prime. He's past it. His stats have dipped considerably. He's still a solid role player, but his average against melo in their last six games is 13 points per game.

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 12:38 PM
****er I have two votes from posters with less than 100 votes so they won't count :(

rapjuicer06
07-22-2011, 12:41 PM
Why don't they count?

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 12:42 PM
It's a rule. Check out the Mock forum and the Rules and Announcements thread

Corey
07-22-2011, 12:42 PM
Well he's not in his prime. He's past it. His stats have dipped considerably. He's still a solid role player, but his average against melo in their last six games is 13 points per game.

Of course his stats dipped, he went to a better team with more depth and a more balanced offense.

His shooting percentages are on mark or better than his career averages the past few years, he's simply getting a few less minutes and less FGA.

Didn't realize PPG was the almighty stat. The guy shot 44% from 3pt last season, and 47% overall, all the while having the HIGHEST ORtg OF HIS CAREER and the most WS/48 since 2005.

...But he's out of his prime. Okey doke.

Slimsim
07-22-2011, 12:43 PM
I was going to go with the Celtics But i think A melo Howard Dual is to overwhelming Epically when they have good shooters in Jimmer and Parker Along with big shot

MiamiWadeCounty
07-22-2011, 12:43 PM
****er I have two votes from posters with less than 100 votes so they won't count :(

Just PM those posters to post a lot today ;)

Sportfan
07-22-2011, 12:46 PM
Go bench....Milwaukee bucks have a good bench :nod:

Knicks are a better overall team imo but celtics match up too well. At least Dwight can be somewhat limited. Charlie V and Hakim Warrick on Amare is just a disaster

rapjuicer06
07-22-2011, 12:46 PM
There's one person who said big shot for Billups hahahaha, I remember having that chat in chatzy Corey...kind of made me laugh a bit

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 12:55 PM
Of course his stats dipped, he went to a better team with more depth and a more balanced offense.

His shooting percentages are on mark or better than his career averages the past few years, he's simply getting a few less minutes and less FGA.

Didn't realize PPG was the almighty stat. The guy shot 44% from 3pt last season, and 47% overall, all the while having the HIGHEST ORtg OF HIS CAREER and the most WS/48 since 2005.

...But he's out of his prime. Okey doke.

Of course his percentages were better. His usage percentage went down by 5% from last year and 9% from the year before. And I never said PPG is the almighty stat. But he won't be able to get in the high teens in points at this point in his career. He can get low teens with good percentages, which I'm not arguing. But he isn't going to take on a big scoring load and if he does, his percentages will drop as seen in his previous years when his usage was higher than 15%.

And the fact that he is now on a better team works both ways. His usage goes down and percentages go up, but his defensive stats are also inflated. He is now on a top 10 defensive team, and his DWS, DRTG, etc will be higher than normal.

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 12:56 PM
There's one person who said big shot for Billups hahahaha, I remember having that chat in chatzy Corey...kind of made me laugh a bit

What?

rapjuicer06
07-22-2011, 01:04 PM
What?

Me and Corey were in a chatzy with some other people and we were talking about Billups being called "Big Shot" and we both thought it was kind of funny how he's called that. He actually isn't as great as what everyone thinks he is, therefore being called Big Shot is wrong...

Mile High Champ
07-22-2011, 01:54 PM
Keep the votes coming!!

Sportfan
07-22-2011, 02:38 PM
Billups is clutch

rapjuicer06
07-22-2011, 02:40 PM
Billups is clutch

Ehh, idk...he was clutch one year, since then he hasn't really been clutch

ABOMB_56
07-22-2011, 02:58 PM
I think the opening statements of the Knicks write-up are what persuaded me to vote for them. I think the Dwight + Melo combo is too much for the C's

Chacarron
07-22-2011, 03:12 PM
I like the Celtics here. I can't believe I just said that.

Corey
07-22-2011, 03:13 PM
2 players wins you a playoff series. Ask the Knicks of this year.

...

Corey
07-22-2011, 03:14 PM
I like the Celtics here. I can't believe I just said that.
:laugh2:

I like your team in your matchup too, it's okay.

:nod:

Sixerlover
07-22-2011, 03:21 PM
I like Boston in this series. The better depth, and they can throw Osik + Perkins at Dwight for 48 mins a night, and Jefferson + Johnson + Posey + Dudley at Melo because there is nothing else on the wing to help Melo out. I'll take the Celtics, but Dwight will make it a 7 game series.

Joshtd1
07-22-2011, 03:26 PM
Im with Jim, Im not going to vote because it could effect who we play. I also like the Celtics a bit better in this matchup though.

VCaintdead17
07-22-2011, 03:44 PM
Great match-up here. Although I had to go with the C' mainly because I think JJ would absolutely thrive as second scoring option and less pressure on him.

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 03:57 PM
Joe Johnson's shooting nights versus Dwight and the Magic in the playoffs:
Game 1: 9-16
Game 2: 6-15
Game 3: 9-23
Game 4: 6-15
Game 5: 2-12
Game 6: 10-25

JRich was the starting SG and he isn't a good defender. Bogans is a solid defender. I fail to see how JJ would go beserk

Sportfan
07-22-2011, 04:02 PM
Richardson is a beast

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 04:03 PM
Richardson is a beast

Magnificent off the bench ;)

greg_ory_2005
07-22-2011, 04:10 PM
I'm liking the Celts in this one. TP would abuse Billups. And the bench is just way superior.

mightybosstone
07-22-2011, 04:34 PM
This is a really, really tough vote, but I'm taking the Celtics. Dwight and Melo is deadly, but I've never been a huge Melo fan and he's one of the most inefficient "superstars" in the NBA today. I'm also impressed with the Celtics and offensive options off the bench, even if they don't quite match the Knicks in terms of star power.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-22-2011, 04:41 PM
Joe Johnson's shooting nights versus Dwight and the Magic in the playoffs:
Game 1: 9-16
Game 2: 6-15
Game 3: 9-23
Game 4: 6-15
Game 5: 2-12
Game 6: 10-25

JRich was the starting SG and he isn't a good defender. Bogans is a solid defender. I fail to see how JJ would go beserk

this

JJ is a playoff choker.

rapjuicer06
07-22-2011, 04:47 PM
this

JJ is a playoff choker.

He's also the go to guy, here he isn't. I like him better in a second man role

Sixerlover
07-22-2011, 04:47 PM
That's not saying much.

Melo was
10-24
4-16
14-30
and 5-18 in his final games against Boston last year. Is he a playoff choker too? At least JJ has players like TP, Amare, RJ, and a bench to give him other options offensively. If it's not Melo or Dwight it isn't an offensive threat in New York. Chauncey is too old.

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 04:56 PM
That's not saying much.

Melo was
10-24
4-16
14-30
and 5-18 in his final games against Boston last year. Is he a playoff choker too? At least JJ has players like TP, Amare, RJ, and a bench to give him other options offensively. If it's not Melo or Dwight it isn't an offensive threat in New York. Chauncey is too old.

Did you even watch the playoffs? Tell me who he could have deferred to. Billups? Hurt. Amar'e? Hurt. Douglas was the next best option! It was a joke how bad the supporting cast for the Knicks was this year.

And Billups is too old? Is that really your argument because he averaged 17 (higher than his career average) with an absurd 62% TS%. He's efficient, gets the opposing players in foul trouble (very good at getting to the line-almost 7 a game), is a leader and shot 40% from three. Yeah, but he's old :rolleyes:

And why do you think Charlie isn't an option? As a 4th option he'd be very effective. He spreads the floor and has proven that he can score even in limited minutes. And he did it at an efficient rate this year! His efficieny would only increase with lower usage. Garicia is also a good option. He started part of the year for the kings and averaged about 10 a game in only 24 minutes and he also scored at an efficient rate.

PocketKings
07-22-2011, 05:10 PM
I'm so torn on this match-up, both GM's have done a phenomenal job with their teams and their write-ups.

I'll probably cast my vote later on this evening as I think about this match-up more.

Gosh, both 4 vs 5 match-ups are ridiculous lol.

mightybosstone
07-22-2011, 05:22 PM
Joe Johnson's shooting nights versus Dwight and the Magic in the playoffs:
Game 1: 9-16
Game 2: 6-15
Game 3: 9-23
Game 4: 6-15
Game 5: 2-12
Game 6: 10-25

JRich was the starting SG and he isn't a good defender. Bogans is a solid defender. I fail to see how JJ would go beserk

I think this is kind of funny when you consider that JJ also scored 19.7 a game with .489 from the floor and .500 from beyond the arc in the following playoff series against....Keith Bogans!

Clearly, the whole "JJ is a playoff choker argument" is overplayed, especially playing in an offense with Tony Parker and Amare freakin' Stoudemire. In fact, I think he would thrive as the No. 2 offensive threat on a playoff team, as opposed to having to always be "the guy" as he often does in Atlanta.

KnicksorBust
07-22-2011, 05:28 PM
I like Boston in this series. The better depth, and they can throw Osik + Perkins at Dwight for 48 mins a night, and Jefferson + Johnson + Posey + Dudley at Melo because there is nothing else on the wing to help Melo out. I'll take the Celtics, but Dwight will make it a 7 game series.

The bolded I can buy but the underlined I'm selling.

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 05:34 PM
I think this is kind of funny when you consider that JJ also scored 19.7 a game with .489 from the floor and .500 from beyond the arc in the following playoff series against....Keith Bogans!

Clearly, the whole "JJ is a playoff choker argument" is overplayed, especially playing in an offense with Tony Parker and Amare freakin' Stoudemire. In fact, I think he would thrive as the No. 2 offensive threat on a playoff team, as opposed to having to always be "the guy" as he often does in Atlanta.

I think it's funny that JJ only had two good games that make his stats look better than he played. He had two very good games. One okay game where he disappeared and three games where he was flat out bad. If he has three bad games, one okay game and two good games against us in the series then I like out chances.

Corey
07-22-2011, 05:35 PM
Dwight's career PPG against Perkins: 15.7

Melo's career PPG against Jefferson: 20.9 (41% FG) (with Jefferson averaging 18 against Melo while shooting 53%)

So who's going to score all the points? Billups? He's 36 and coming off an injury, on top of the fact that Billups shoots a career 37% while being covered by Parker.

Corey
07-22-2011, 05:36 PM
I think it's funny that JJ only had two good games that make his stats look better than he played. He had two very good games. One okay game where he disappeared and three games where he was flat out bad. If he has three bad games, one okay game and two good games against us in the series then I like out chances.

Johnson averages 21 points while shooting 46% from the field while being covered by Bogans.


Hm.

KnicksorBust
07-22-2011, 05:44 PM
Dwight's career PPG against Perkins: 15.7

Melo's career PPG against Jefferson: 20.9 (41% FG) (with Jefferson averaging 18 against Melo while shooting 53%)

So who's going to score all the points? Billups? He's 36 and coming off an injury, on top of the fact that Billups shoots a career 37% while being covered by Parker.

Those Dwight vs. Perk stats are misleading. I took a look at them earlier. The last 3-4 games Perk barely even played.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=perkike01&p2=howardw01

Also Perk's career high game in 22 games against Dwight Howard is 11 points and he's only averaging 5.6ppg in 24 minutes. Maybe if Perk was still playing with KG instead of Amar'e ...

Corey
07-22-2011, 05:50 PM
Those Dwight vs. Perk stats are misleading. I took a look at them earlier. The last 3-4 games Perk barely even played.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=perkike01&p2=howardw01

Also Perk's career high game in 22 games against Dwight Howard is 11 points and he's only averaging 5.6ppg in 24 minutes. Maybe if Perk was still playing with KG instead of Amar'e ...

Bringing up Perks scoring? What does that have to do with anything?

Also, you need to learn how to look at BBall Reference better. The top of the game lists are the least recent.

You're citing games from 2004 when he 'barely played'. :clap:

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-22-2011, 05:51 PM
I might not like Melo but he's much much better than JJ.

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 05:55 PM
Dwight's career PPG against Perkins: 15.7

Melo's career PPG against Jefferson: 20.9 (41% FG) (with Jefferson averaging 18 against Melo while shooting 53%)

So who's going to score all the points? Billups? He's 36 and coming off an injury, on top of the fact that Billups shoots a career 37% while being covered by Parker.

Why are you using career numbers? Use numbers of games that were played recently! I don't want Melo's and Dwight's stats as rookies to be used against them. It's just not fair.

Dwight this year versus Perkins: 21 Pts, 11.7 boards, 2 blocks, and only 2 TO's per game.
Perkins versus Dwight this year: 2 Points, 6.3 boards, 20% shooting

Dwight versus Perkins in the Playoffs last year when Perk was healthy: 22 Pts, 11 boards, 57% from the field, 3.5 fouls, 3 blocks

Perkins in the same series: 4.5 Pts, 4.7 boards, 4.2 fouls, 40% shooting

And doubling Dwight will be a lot harder with good shooters around him and Carmelo Anthony.

Melo versus RJ last six games: 25 pts, 7 boards, 45% from the field

KnicksorBust
07-22-2011, 06:00 PM
Bringing up Perks scoring? What does that have to do with anything?

Also, you need to learn how to look at BBall Reference better. The top of the game lists are the least recent.

You're citing games from 2004 when he 'barely played'. :clap:

One of the things that made Perkins a quality center was he could still contribute almost a double double on a nightly basis while providing tough D. Now he's going against Dwight who (as Roshan just proved) can barely score against. You don't find that relevant? You are okay with Perkins being Joel Anthony? :rolleyes:

Edit: You are right though, I accidently misread the games. I should have been looking at the most recent ones where Perk scored 0 points with 3 fouls, 2 points with 4 fouls, 4 points with 5 fouls, 6 points with 4 fouls, and 5 points with 4 fouls.

Last 5 regular season games vs. Dwight:
17 points scored and 21 fouls

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 06:03 PM
Bringing up Perks scoring? What does that have to do with anything?

Also, you need to learn how to look at BBall Reference better. The top of the game lists are the least recent.

You're citing games from 2004 when he 'barely played'. :clap:

So are you because you're using career stats :clap:

Corey
07-22-2011, 06:05 PM
So are you because you're using career stats :clap:

Last I checked you brought up Billups' career average too, which is equally as pointless considering he averaged about 10 points through his first 5 seasons which drastically downsizes his consistent career average over the next 7 years after that.

Corey
07-22-2011, 06:07 PM
17 points

Second time you've brought up points when referencing Perk. Why? What does his lack of scoring have to do with anything? Didn't stop the Celtics in 2008 when he was surrounded by a balanced scoring offense and deep bench, much like he is on this team.

That's like referencing Ben Wallace's terrible scoring ability. Simply not the type of player they are.

Sixerlover
07-22-2011, 06:09 PM
Did you even watch the playoffs? Tell me who he could have deferred to. Billups? Hurt. Amar'e? Hurt. Douglas was the next best option! It was a joke how bad the supporting cast for the Knicks was this year.

And Billups is too old? Is that really your argument because he averaged 17 (higher than his career average) with an absurd 62% TS%. He's efficient, gets the opposing players in foul trouble (very good at getting to the line-almost 7 a game), is a leader and shot 40% from three. Yeah, but he's old :rolleyes:

And why do you think Charlie isn't an option? As a 4th option he'd be very effective. He spreads the floor and has proven that he can score even in limited minutes. And he did it at an efficient rate this year! His efficieny would only increase with lower usage. Garicia is also a good option. He started part of the year for the kings and averaged about 10 a game in only 24 minutes and he also scored at an efficient rate.

Obviously I watched the playoffs, and saw him get swept. Yeah he didn't have much, but when Dwight goes out (unless he's planning to play 48 mins a game) he'll have Bogans or Anthony Parker, CV31 or Hakim Warrick, and Lou Admunson in the game with him. That's not much better if any better than what D'Antoni trotted out there when Amare when out in the real series. So the offensive pressure would be just as heavy on him.

When Jimmer is the backup PG, Chauncey will have had to play big minutes all season. Not like when he was splitting time in Denver with Lawson or getting his 18 minutes rest when T.Douglas would fill the void. You can say he'll be healthy throughout and be going into the playoffs playing his best basketball, but I'll disagree.


The bolded I can buy but the underlined I'm selling.

Not buying Joe Johnson, Richard Jefferson, Jared Dudley and James Posey being able to effectively defend Melo in a 7 game series?

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 06:11 PM
Last I checked you brought up Billups' career average too, which is equally as pointless considering he averaged about 10 points through his first 5 seasons which drastically downsizes his consistent career average over the next 7 years after that.

I was using that to point out that saying "Billups is old" is a bad argument considering he averaged more points this year than his career average.

And I guess you're right about the first five seasons downsizing his career averages but the effect on his 14 year stats aren't drastic because not many players have very good numbers in the first few years of their career.

Regardless, I was using his career PPG stats to prove he's not some useless old player like SL made him out to be. You are using career #'s as a large bulk of your argument and they are flawed

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 06:21 PM
Obviously I watched the playoffs, and saw him get swept. Yeah he didn't have much, but when Dwight goes out (unless he's planning to play 48 mins a game) he'll have Bogans or Anthony Parker, CV31 or Hakim Warrick, and Lou Admunson in the game with him. That's not much better if any better than what D'Antoni trotted out there when Amare when out in the real series. So the offensive pressure would be just as heavy on him.

Yeah the offensive pressure would be just as heavy for like 10 minutes when Melo's sitting and same for Dwight when Melo's sitting. And it's not nearly as bad. Roger Mason is terrible. Bill Walker is terrible. Jeffries is the worst player in the league. Turiaf is at best a backup big. Shawne Williams was nobody before NY. Anthony Carter.. uhh he's okay for 5 minutes but nothing else. All of those scrubs played almost 20 minutes save Carter. Oh and don't forget Fields showing up big time with his 2 points per game on 20% shooting!

Charlie is a good scorer, I don't understand why you keep acting like he sucks. He's a very good shooter who spreads the floor. Good fit next to Dwight. Francisco Garcia is also a solid scorer. If he's getting 10 ppg on the Kings in twenty something minutes, it's hard for me to believe that he would do worse here. Parker is a veteran who can also shoot the three at a good rate. Hakim is a sparkplug who has a solid jumper, is super athletic and is an energizer. Amundson isn't playing with Dwight.... Alll of these guys are EASILY better than the **** that the Knicks had this year with Melo in the playoffs. And Billups will be on the floor with them a large portion of the time when either Melo/Dwight is sitting.


When Jimmer is the backup PG, Chauncey will have had to play big minutes all season. Not like when he was splitting time in Denver with Lawson or getting his 18 minutes rest when T.Douglas would fill the void.
If Jimmer sucks then Earl Watson comes in. Veteran player who can lead an offense for 10-14 minutes well enough.


You can say he'll be healthy throughout and be going into the playoffs playing his best basketball, but I'll disagree.

Yup and I'll do the same with Perkins, Parker and Amar'e

KnicksorBust
07-22-2011, 06:26 PM
Second time you've brought up points when referencing Perk. Why? What does his lack of scoring have to do with anything? Didn't stop the Celtics in 2008 when he was surrounded by a balanced scoring offense and deep bench, much like he is on this team.

That's like referencing Ben Wallace's terrible scoring ability. Simply not the type of player they are.

:laugh: ON YOUR TEAM HIS LACKING OF SCORING IS AMPLIFIED x 10. How do you not see that? Your two best examples of why it wouldn't matter are the 2004 Detroit Pistons and the 2008 Boston Celtics. What is different about those teams and your team?

The 2004 Detroit Pistons were the 2nd best defensive team in the league and won their championship holding the Lakers to under 82 points per game (the same Lakers team that averaged 98 ppg during the regular season).

The 2008 Celtics won their title as the #1 defensive team in the league by holding the Lakers to under 94 points per game (the same Lakers team that average over 110 per game vs. the Nuggets and Jazz in earlier series).

Parker-Johnson-Amar'e isn't exactly the 2004 Pistons or the 2008 Celtics. Your squad is a below average defensive team that can't afford to get 5ppg series out of its starters.

Sadds The Gr8
07-22-2011, 06:28 PM
:catfight:

Corey
07-22-2011, 06:36 PM
:laugh: ON YOUR TEAM HIS LACKING OF SCORING IS AMPLIFIED x 10.

How much for your crystal ball? I have paypal, can you put it on eBay?

KnicksorBust
07-22-2011, 06:48 PM
How much for your crystal ball? I have paypal, can you put it on eBay?

Run out of arguments already huh? :) I'm disappointed.

roshan3ai
07-22-2011, 10:18 PM
Bump.

RevisIsland
07-23-2011, 12:04 AM
I really like that Knicks team, I think Dwight and Melo would play off each other really well.

jimbobjarree
07-23-2011, 12:32 AM
oooo knicks pulled it back

PocketKings
07-23-2011, 12:33 AM
I'm leaning one way, and idk if I can vote yet...

AHHHHHHH!

O_O

:cry:

Iodine
07-23-2011, 12:37 AM
C's

Perk is one of the best if not the best man post defenders in the league, and the C's will run rampart with their guards

Corey
07-23-2011, 01:30 AM
Bump it uppp

PatsSoxKnicks
07-23-2011, 02:15 AM
Dwight is the real difference maker for me. While Perkins has slowed him down in the past, Dwight has even improved on his arsenal this year and has become even better now. I think based on this past year, Perk wouldn't be able to guard Dwight anymore (especially with the injuries Perk had). He's been surrounded by crap defenders for this whole year and still the Magic were great defensively.

The biggest difference here between the real life Magic and this Knicks team is that Dwight has help offensively in Melo. I always tend to lean towards the more talented starting lineup, even if this years championship winner wasn't as top heavy as its opponent but in general, that rule is often true- the more top heavy team wins. Dwight has also been a beast in the playoffs. His WS/48 actually rises from the regular season- one of the few players in NBA history to do that. Don't let a first round exit or a 2nd round exit fool you, Dwight brings it in the playoffs. He's already carried a team to the Finals and with a more talented Knicks team, I can't not take them here.

Yes, the Celts are deeper but don't let 1 series this year fool you, top heavy teams still generally win. This has been the case going back for decades.

Oh and if I haven't mentioned Dwight enough, this guy has got an argument for being the most valuable player in the league. Put some good competent talent around him, like Melo, Billups, etc. and you bet his team would go far.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-23-2011, 02:25 AM
Another fun stat on Perkins- his post up D in OKC was horrible. Via synergy, he allowed .97 points per possession on post ups which ranked 218th in the league. Either that injury drastically affected him or he missed KG more then anyone realized.

With someone who guarded post ups that poorly, how does he do against Dwight?

Sadds The Gr8
07-23-2011, 02:37 AM
u should join this game if u can just whip out crazy *** stats liek that

PatsSoxKnicks
07-23-2011, 03:03 AM
u should join this game if u can just whip out crazy *** stats liek that

haha, it's a little late for that now isn't it?

I've actually compiled a bunch of different players defensive synergy stats in a spreadsheet (which took a little while), so I have it at the ready whenever I feel like "whipping it out" lol

roshan3ai
07-23-2011, 10:35 AM
Bump

roshan3ai
07-23-2011, 10:46 AM
We need more votes! Damn 100 posts rule :mad:

Corey
07-23-2011, 11:24 AM
Another fun stat on Perkins- his post up D in OKC was horrible. Via synergy, he allowed .97 points per possession on post ups which ranked 218th in the league. Either that injury drastically affected him or he missed KG more then anyone realized.

With someone who guarded post ups that poorly, how does he do against Dwight?

Probably a combination of both, in addition to changing coaches and getting ripped out of a situation he'd been in the first 8 years of his career post high-school.

Sadds The Gr8
07-23-2011, 12:01 PM
haha, it's a little late for that now isn't it?

I've actually compiled a bunch of different players defensive synergy stats in a spreadsheet (which took a little while), so I have it at the ready whenever I feel like "whipping it out" lol

yea but the NBA re-draft starts soon.

Sportfan
07-23-2011, 12:06 PM
so who wins

roshan3ai
07-23-2011, 12:12 PM
:shrug: Let's wait for the commishes. I had 5 votes from posters with less than 100 votes and Corey and Superdude had 1. So we'll see

jimbobjarree
07-23-2011, 01:03 PM
tie ball game then maybe?

roshan3ai
07-23-2011, 01:07 PM
Yep it's tied.

Sadds The Gr8
07-23-2011, 01:30 PM
Yep it's tied.

Overtime in Game 7.

KnicksorBust
07-23-2011, 02:33 PM
This matchup will be re-posted today. Good luck to both teams.