PDA

View Full Version : Most overrated players of all time?



Pages : [1] 2

Heat4life06
07-21-2011, 10:25 PM
?

Slimsim
07-21-2011, 10:38 PM
I would probably chose Allen Iverson. But IDK

JordansBulls
07-21-2011, 10:38 PM
These type of threads don't go well because posters get upset when you list a player they are fans of.

But I'd say Oscar Robertson only for the fact that you had some people think he deserves to be in the top 5 all time with one mvp, and winning a title as the 2nd fiddle on his team.

NBAfan4life
07-21-2011, 10:43 PM
These type of threads don't go well because posters get upset when you list a player they are fans of.

But I'd say Oscar Robertson only for the fact that you had some people think he deserves to be in the top 5 all time with one mvp, and winning a title as the 2nd fiddle on his team.

This thread could be derailed if someone were to say oh I dont know, Dwayne Wade is overrated because some people think is already the third best SG all time.

C_A_S_H
07-21-2011, 10:48 PM
Darious Miles SMH

Stuckey#3
07-21-2011, 10:48 PM
Lebron James. Some people try to put him in the GOAT discussion and he hasn't done anything yet (outside the regular season).

Stuckey#3
07-21-2011, 10:51 PM
Also Clyde Drexler and Steve Nash. Neither should be considered top 25 IMO. I like both of them though.

cowboysceltics
07-21-2011, 10:51 PM
Please remember that great players can be overrated.
Scotty Pippen
Magic Johnson

theheatles
07-21-2011, 10:53 PM
magic, michael jordan, bill russell

Hellcrooner
07-21-2011, 10:53 PM
Full line up : Starters

Allen Iverson ( some people think he was great.....yeah a great chuker)
David Thompson ( people thought he was a star, but was a chuker)
Dominique Wilkins ( flashy but never delivered in Playoffs)
Dirk Nowitzy(as in people is right now talking some top20 ever B.S)
Russell ( as in people put him in Goat conversations not factoring he had a MONSTER team filled of HOF at every position)

Bench:

Payton ( he was very good but not GREAT, or at least not greater than KIDD but people thing otherwise massively)
Reggie Miller ( great shooter no doubt but people think of him as a great franchise dude who really wasnt).
Carmelo Anthony ( he is NOT a dude that will lead a team to a Ring)
Shawn Kemp ( very strong, very athletic, nothing in between his ears yet peopel thought he was good, gone teh athelticism gone his "game")
Shaq ( some people have the balls to place him top 5 all time wich is basically overating him)

JordansBulls
07-21-2011, 10:58 PM
magic, michael jordan, bill russell

Yes proven champions with 3+ League MVP's and 5+ Titles are overrated.
You know guys who show up in the finals.:rolleyes: and guys who have less series losses with HCA than the guy who went to the Heat last summer.

Heat4life06
07-21-2011, 10:58 PM
Steve Nash is the first to come to for me. He's a very good players but there are alot of people who say he's a top 5 or even top 3 point guard which is ridiculous

beasted86
07-21-2011, 11:02 PM
This thread could be derailed if someone were to say oh I dont know, Dwayne Wade is overrated because some people think is already the third best SG all time.

Just curious who you think is better other than possibly Jerry West

Most of the time when I see people say Wade is overrated, it comes with a transparent agenda of hate. Once I asked a poster this same question and his agenda was so clear that he was even claiming Joe Dumars was better than Wade.

Stuckey#3
07-21-2011, 11:04 PM
Steve Nash is the first to come to for me. He's a very good players but there are alot of people who say he's a top 5 or even top 3 point guard which is ridiculous

I agree (with a Heat fan... holy ****).

Nash shined in one of the weakest superstar eras. When Nash earned his two MVP's the game was more team oriented and less about star players. He jacked Kobe on at least one of those. I don't want to take anything away from him... the dude can play; but I think his MVP's were more about popularity than talent.

asandhu23
07-21-2011, 11:04 PM
Honestly, I think Julius Erving.

Hellcrooner
07-21-2011, 11:04 PM
Just curious who you think is better other than possibly Jerry West

Most of the time when I see people say Wade is overrated, it comes with a transparent agenda of hate. Once I asked a poster this same question and his agenda was so clear that he was even claiming Joe Dumars was better than Wade.

he is under jordan, west, robertson and kobe for sure.

i will admit that i have a tough time deciding if wade is better or not that dudes like gervin, wilkes, dantley or english

but of course he is better than dumars.

Heat4life06
07-21-2011, 11:05 PM
This thread could be derailed if someone were to say oh I dont know, Dwayne Wade is overrated because some people think is already the third best SG all time.

actually it's not that far off to say Wade is the 3rd best shooting guard of all time.

Heat4life06
07-21-2011, 11:06 PM
he is under jordan, west, robertson and kobe for sure.

i will admit that i have a tough time deciding if wade is better or not that dudes like gervin, wilkes, dantley or english

but of course he is better than dumars.

Robertson is listed as a forward

Tree Rollins
07-21-2011, 11:09 PM
Wade.

Stuckey#3
07-21-2011, 11:09 PM
Just curious who you think is better other than possibly Jerry West

Most of the time when I see people say Wade is overrated, it comes with a transparent agenda of hate. Once I asked a poster this same question and his agenda was so clear that he was even claiming Joe Dumars was better than Wade.

When all is said and done... if Wade doesn't win two more championships. I would say they are about even.

Heat4life06
07-21-2011, 11:09 PM
I agree (with a Heat fan... holy ****).

Nash shined in one of the weakest superstar eras. When Nash earned his two MVP's the game was more team oriented and less about star players. He jacked Kobe on at least one of those. I don't want to take anything away from him... the dude can play; but I think his MVP's were more about popularity than talent.

there were at least 5 players more deserving than Nash for that MVP

asandhu23
07-21-2011, 11:10 PM
Pete Maravich > Wade.

Stuckey#3
07-21-2011, 11:11 PM
there were at least 5 players more deserving than Nash for that MVP

The league was trying to clean up its image after the Malace at the Palace and the Kobe scandal.

NBAfan4life
07-21-2011, 11:11 PM
Just curious who you think is better other than possibly Jerry West

Most of the time when I see people say Wade is overrated, it comes with a transparent agenda of hate. Once I asked a poster this same question and his agenda was so clear that he was even claiming Joe Dumars was better than Wade.

I was mostly joking with my post showing how this thread could be derailed, but to answer your question it really depends how you rate players. If you prefer peak vs career it is very easy to put him at 3. If you're someone who looks at the whole career and gives the nod to longevity you can make a case for a few players. See Crooners post on page 2.

Also you make a case for clyde drexler, not that I believe it but up to this point.

The Final Boss
07-21-2011, 11:12 PM
Michael sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

Russell played in a league of scrubs. I honestly feel today's Clippers team can beat his Celtics squad.

TheRunKiller
07-21-2011, 11:13 PM
magic, michael jordan, bill russell

if you think they're overrated, what does that make lebron?

Heat4life06
07-21-2011, 11:16 PM
Pete Maravich > Wade.

I'm not trying to be a homer but there is no chance in hell Maravich is better than Wade. Wade has Maravich beat on almost every single stat. Plus correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think he has ever even won a playoff series

Heat4life06
07-21-2011, 11:17 PM
Michael sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

Russell played in a league of scrubs. I honestly feel today's Clippers team can beat his Celtics squad.

haha I agree. don't try to argue it with the old timer nba fans. they are soo stubborn

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-21-2011, 11:17 PM
Yes proven champions with 3+ League MVP's and 5+ Titles are overrated.
You know guys who show up in the finals.:rolleyes: and guys who have less series losses with HCA than the guy who went to the Heat last summer.


if you think they're overrated, what does that make lebron?

Theheatles just got burned. But I also agree with the points made too.

Hustlenomics
07-21-2011, 11:18 PM
I would probably chose Allen Iverson. But IDK

leading a team of bums to the finals and a win against those lakers is pretty overrated


Steve Nash is the first to come to for me. He's a very good players but there are alot of people who say he's a top 5 or even top 3 point guard which is ridiculous

+ 1

I agree (with a Heat fan... holy ****).

Nash shined in one of the weakest superstar eras. When Nash earned his two MVP's the game was more team oriented and less about star players. He jacked Kobe on at least one of those. I don't want to take anything away from him... the dude can play; but I think his MVP's were more about popularity than talent.

+ 1

Hawkeye15
07-21-2011, 11:22 PM
This thread will be derailed in a matter of minutes (I am giving you guys credit here...)

Crooner, please, for the love of god, get over your complete hatred of Dirk.

Real answer from MY point of view?

Iverson
Reggie Miller
Mark Jackson
Oscar Robertson
Dominique Wilkins
Bill Russell (I know, I know)

To name a few anyways. Of course there are overrated players throughout history, because they thrilled us in a series, or played for 80 years and have accumulated stats, or played in an era that resembled a track meet more than it did a basketball game.

Hawkeye15
07-21-2011, 11:24 PM
did someone say Jordan??

hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahaha

gaughan333
07-21-2011, 11:29 PM
Until he wins something, Lebron James. After that I will go with Nash. (Even though I love me some nash)

gaughan333
07-21-2011, 11:30 PM
Yes multiple people mentioned MJ.

Hawkeye15
07-21-2011, 11:36 PM
Yes multiple people mentioned MJ.

Then any and everyone who mentioned Jordan should explain why they listed him.

Honestly.

Tree Rollins
07-21-2011, 11:36 PM
Reggie Miller is up there. Very good player, but overrated.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-21-2011, 11:38 PM
Then any and everyone who mentioned Jordan should explain why they listed him.

Honestly.

Theheatles said Magic, MJ, and Russell were overrated.

gaughan333
07-21-2011, 11:39 PM
Then any and everyone who mentioned Jordan should explain why they listed him.

Honestly.

Hatred, jealousy, stupidity?

Tree Rollins
07-21-2011, 11:41 PM
Then any and everyone who mentioned Jordan should explain why they listed him.

Honestly.

I don't think he's overrated, but whoever said he was, i can understand how they feel that way. MJ is considered by most the undisputed greatest player of all-time. B/c he's so highly rated, all you have to do to think he's overrated is disagree that he is without a doubt the greatest basketball player ever. I can understand how someone could have an argument against him being undisputed #1. Maybe they think it's Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic etc....any of those guys are reasonable enough to at least have an argument.

BaustinSali08
07-21-2011, 11:44 PM
Full line up : Starters

Allen Iverson ( some people think he was great.....yeah a great chuker)
David Thompson ( people thought he was a star, but was a chuker)
Dominique Wilkins ( flashy but never delivered in Playoffs)
Dirk Nowitzy(as in people is right now talking some top20 ever B.S)
Russell ( as in people put him in Goat conversations not factoring he had a MONSTER team filled of HOF at every position)

Bench:

Payton ( he was very good but not GREAT, or at least not greater than KIDD but people thing otherwise massively)
Reggie Miller ( great shooter no doubt but people think of him as a great franchise dude who really wasnt).
Carmelo Anthony ( he is NOT a dude that will lead a team to a Ring)
Shawn Kemp ( very strong, very athletic, nothing in between his ears yet peopel thought he was good, gone teh athelticism gone his "game")
Shaq ( some people have the balls to place him top 5 all time wich is basically overating him)

Wrong. Look at Indiana's attendance records when they were in Market Square Arena and the first couple of years at the Conseco Fieldhouse. Reggie Miller made the Pacers franchise a lot of money in the 90's and took the 2000 team to the finals against the Lakers. I would say that he was a great franchise dude.

Hawkeye15
07-21-2011, 11:46 PM
I don't think he's overrated, but whoever said he was, i can understand how they feel that way. MJ is considered by most the undisputed greatest player of all-time. B/c he's so highly rated, all you have to do to think he's overrated is disagree that he is without a doubt the greatest basketball player ever. I can understand how someone could have an argument against him being undisputed #1. Maybe they think it's Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic etc....any of those guys are reasonable enough to at least have an argument.

and I await anyone to show me MJ wasn't the indisputed GOAT...

PLAYERS FAN
07-21-2011, 11:46 PM
I'm shock! That people think Wade is overrated. I'll personally think he's underrated. He's the second best shot blocking SG behind, Michael Jordan.

BigBlueCrew
07-21-2011, 11:46 PM
Until he leads his team to a championship: Lebron James

Hellcrooner
07-21-2011, 11:46 PM
Then any and everyone who mentioned Jordan should explain why they listed him.

Honestly.

i didnt but i will give you an answer.

typical dude : " MJ is god"

ok, providing god exists ( this is not a religious forum), THAT is the DEFINITIVE definition of what Overating is.

Tree Rollins
07-21-2011, 11:48 PM
and I await anyone to show me MJ wasn't the indisputed GOAT...

Yeah, i agree he's the best ever, but to say that it is indisputable is stupid and close minded.

PLAYERS FAN
07-21-2011, 11:49 PM
This thread will be derailed in a matter of minutes (I am giving you guys credit here...)

Crooner, please, for the love of god, get over your complete hatred of Dirk.

Real answer from MY point of view?

Iverson
Reggie Miller
Mark Jackson
Oscar Robertson
Dominique Wilkins
Bill Russell (I know, I know)

To name a few anyways. Of course there are overrated players throughout history, because they thrilled us in a series, or played for 80 years and have accumulated stats, or played in an era that resembled a track meet more than it did a basketball game.

:laugh2:

sventhedog
07-21-2011, 11:51 PM
not really hatin' but when you talk about overrated, you gotta think of lebron. when was the last time the nba had a "best player in the league" who constantly chokes?

gaughan333
07-21-2011, 11:52 PM
I can see where he is coming from. After winning everyone in the media wanted to name him the best player in the NBA etc.

Tree Rollins
07-21-2011, 11:52 PM
not really hatin' but when you talk about overrated, you gotta think of lebron. when was the last time the nba had a "best player in the league" who constantly chokes?

True story.

Geargo Wallace
07-21-2011, 11:53 PM
Brian Scalabrine is overrated. Everyone here thinks he's GOD...

Geargo Wallace
07-21-2011, 11:54 PM
Dirk is pretty overrated if you think he's a 20-30 guy all time. Cuban spent tonnes of $$$ on those teams every year.

MJ-BULLS
07-21-2011, 11:58 PM
People saying Jordan. :laugh:

Kids, what can you do? :shrug:

Lakers4ItAll
07-22-2011, 12:02 AM
Lebron James. Some people try to put him in the GOAT discussion and he hasn't done anything yet (outside the regular season).

Agreed

ChiTownPacerFan
07-22-2011, 12:04 AM
Pete Maravich > Wade.

If we used a time machine to travel back to 1973 and set up a one-on-one with Pistol Pete and D. Wade, what do you think would happen?

Not only would Pete get skunked, he would probably crap his pants at the sheer speed, athleticism, and strength of Wade.

Think about it, in the mid 70's Maravich maybe had defended a few guys who had attempted very rudimentary crossovers. Imagine if Wade were to give him a series a moves. He would have zero chance of staying in front of Wade. Even if Wade were to just drive right, and hit a step back fading jumper, that would be something Maravich had never seen before in his life.

naps
07-22-2011, 12:04 AM
Anyone who's saying MJ is overrated is just born and by miracle knows how to type, knows nothing about the game of basketball and it's history.

No one stands a better chance to be the GOAT. His resume is unreal.

LA_Raiders
07-22-2011, 12:06 AM
Honestly, I think Julius Erving.

agree

naps
07-22-2011, 12:06 AM
If we used a time machine to travel back to 1973 and set up a one-on-one with Pistol Pete and D. Wade, what do you think would happen?

Not only would Pete get skunked, he would probably crap his pants at the sheer speed, athleticism, and strength of Wade.

Think about it, in the mid 70's Maravich maybe had defended a few guys who had attempted very rudimentary crossovers. Imagine if Wade were to give him a series a moves. He would have zero chance of staying in front of Wade. Even if Wade were to just drive right, and hit a step back fading jumper, that would be something Maravich had never seen before in his life.

Very well-put.

John Walls Era
07-22-2011, 12:07 AM
Nash - Love his game, but hes not a top 5 PG like some claim him to be. I don't even have to talk about his defense, his career numbers are respectable, but not top 5 material.


Dirk - Which player would you rather have (Career numbers of MVP type PFs), Try not to cheat before reading all 6 player's stats:

a) 22.1 PPG, 11.7 RPG, 4APG, 54.1% shooting. This player was Barkley (white font).

b) 20.6 PPG, 11.4 RPG, 2.3 BLK, 50.8% shooting, 13x All Defensive Team. This player was Tim Duncan.

c) 19.5 PPG, 10.7 RPG, 1.5 BLK, 50% shooting, 11x All Defensive Team. Player was KG.

d) 25.0 PPG, 10.1 RPG, 51.6% shooting, 4x Defensive Team. Very deserving of multiple championships, but tough luck its the MJ era. Who was this?: Mailman.

e) 23.0 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 47.6% shooting. --- Dirk N.

f) 26.4 PPG, 16.2 RPG, 2x scoring champ and 2x mvp. :worthy: -- Bob Pettit.

Lets not overrated Dirk just because he finally won a ring that was long overdue. Hes a great player and arguably top 50. But I just don't see anyone picking e) (who was Dirk btw). Did I mention Dirk's assist numbers are the worst of the 6.


Reggie Miller - Love the guy, love his documentary, but he was just a shooter. A great shooter and a great number 2 guy, but not the franchise player you would want.

chrism516
07-22-2011, 12:08 AM
Vince Carter & Michael Vick[falcons version] are two that come to mind.

naps
07-22-2011, 12:17 AM
Nash - Love his game, but hes not a top 5 PG like some claim him to be. I don't even have to talk about his defense, his career numbers are respectable, but not top 5 material.


Dirk - Which player would you rather have (Career numbers of MVP type PFs), Try not to cheat before reading all 6 player's stats:


Lets not overrated Dirk just because he finally won a ring that was long overdue. Hes a great player and arguably top 50. But I just don't see anyone picking e) (who was Dirk btw). Did I mention Dirk's assist numbers are the worst of the 6.



Agreed on that bold part. Dirk was rated alright before he won the championship. He started getting overrated after the finals, which I understand people are living in the moment.

TopsyTurvy
07-22-2011, 12:22 AM
I would much rather list underrated players.

I think Clyde and David Robinson are two of the most underrated players of all time.

John Walls Era
07-22-2011, 12:22 AM
Agreed on that bold part. Dirk was rated alright before he won the championship. He started getting overrated after the finals, which I understand people are living in the moment.


Nash's career numbers are pretty bad. He is a 2 time MVP so that increases his stock for sure, but he really only deserved one of them.

Hawkeye15
07-22-2011, 12:23 AM
i didnt but i will give you an answer.

typical dude : " MJ is god"

ok, providing god exists ( this is not a religious forum), THAT is the DEFINITIVE definition of what Overating is.

move past the irrational.

MJ is the best player of all time, and I challenge you to prove otherwise.

JordansBulls
07-22-2011, 12:25 AM
I would much rather list underrated players.

I think Clyde and David Robinson are two of the most underrated players of all time.

Add Payton and Dirk. Payton led the Sonics to 6 seasons in a row of 55+ wins. Dirk led the Mavs to 10+ seasons in a row to 50+ wins.

John Walls Era
07-22-2011, 12:26 AM
Add Payton and Dirk. Payton led the Sonics to 6 seasons in a row of 55+ wins. Dirk led the Mavs to 10+ seasons in a row to 50+ wins.

So where do you rank Dirk... Top 5 PF? Or Top 10 PF?

JordansBulls
07-22-2011, 12:27 AM
So where do you rank Dirk... Top 5 PF? Or Top 10 PF?

#20 all time and #5 PF tied with KG

TopsyTurvy
07-22-2011, 12:29 AM
I don't think Dirk will be underrated in the end considering he got his title and he played on arguably the third or fourth best team in the West across his entire career.

Payton will be left off many lists of best PG's, but he was an absolute beast.

I think Chris Mullin is a bit overrated. He could stroke the three, but he really had no place on the Dream Team.

John Walls Era
07-22-2011, 12:31 AM
#20 all time and #5 PF tied with KG

And thats a completely good rating. Dirk is properly rated here.

John Walls Era
07-22-2011, 12:32 AM
Nash - Love his game, but hes not a top 5 PG like some claim him to be. I don't even have to talk about his defense, his career numbers are respectable, but not top 5 material.


Dirk - Which player would you rather have (Career numbers of MVP type PFs), Try not to cheat before reading all 6 player's stats:


Lets not overrated Dirk just because he finally won a ring that was long overdue. Hes a great player and arguably top 50. But I just don't see anyone picking e) (who was Dirk btw). Did I mention Dirk's assist numbers are the worst of the 6.


Reggie Miller - Love the guy, love his documentary, but he was just a shooter. A great shooter and a great number 2 guy, but not the franchise player you would want.


No disrespect to other PFs, just picked some off the top of my head. Forgot guys like Mcchale (who is also kinda overrated).

Cal827
07-22-2011, 12:33 AM
AI
Carlos Boozer
Hedo
Eddy Curry


Wow, 5 pages and I'm kinda shocked that nobody said Derek Rose (to try and bait)... Although I think he's overrated, he definitely isn't most of all time (he also has about 18 years to make me shut up, which I think he will).

gaughan333
07-22-2011, 12:33 AM
Nash - Love his game, but hes not a top 5 PG like some claim him to be. I don't even have to talk about his defense, his career numbers are respectable, but not top 5 material.


Dirk - Which player would you rather have (Career numbers of MVP type PFs), Try not to cheat before reading all 6 player's stats:


Lets not overrated Dirk just because he finally won a ring that was long overdue. Hes a great player and arguably top 50. But I just don't see anyone picking e) (who was Dirk btw). Did I mention Dirk's assist numbers are the worst of the 6.


Reggie Miller - Love the guy, love his documentary, but he was just a shooter. A great shooter and a great number 2 guy, but not the franchise player you would want.

I really like your post, and I didn't cheat, this would be a pretty cool idea for a thread

gaughan333
07-22-2011, 12:37 AM
This thread has stayed way more civilized than I assumed it would. I'm happy, because this is interesting too look at

knightstemplar
07-22-2011, 12:49 AM
kobe - overrated ballhogging chucker
JK

Hellcrooner
07-22-2011, 12:54 AM
No disrespect to other PFs, just picked some off the top of my head. Forgot guys like Mcchale (who is also kinda overrated).

on the contrary mchale is one of the most UNDERATED pf ever for me he is second behind duncan.

he had the "bad luck" to be paired up with Bird so people dont realy apreciate him, he is in the same boat than west because of baylor thna worhty because of magic, than pip because of jordan etc etc.

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 12:55 AM
Full line up : Starters

Allen Iverson ( some people think he was great.....yeah a great chuker)
David Thompson ( people thought he was a star, but was a chuker)
Dominique Wilkins ( flashy but never delivered in Playoffs)
Dirk Nowitzy(as in people is right now talking some top20 ever B.S)
Russell ( as in people put him in Goat conversations not factoring he had a MONSTER team filled of HOF at every position)

Bench:

Payton ( he was very good but not GREAT, or at least not greater than KIDD but people thing otherwise massively)
Reggie Miller ( great shooter no doubt but people think of him as a great franchise dude who really wasnt).
Carmelo Anthony ( he is NOT a dude that will lead a team to a Ring)
Shawn Kemp ( very strong, very athletic, nothing in between his ears yet peopel thought he was good, gone teh athelticism gone his "game")
Shaq ( some people have the balls to place him top 5 all time wich is basically overating him)

I have a hard time taking you serious. And im not gonna debate with you because i dont care about advanced stats..

Catfish1314
07-22-2011, 12:55 AM
Steve Nash is the first to come to for me. He's a very good players but there are alot of people who say he's a top 5 or even top 3 point guard which is ridiculous

In the league today or all-time? I think he's pretty clearly a top five point guard in the league today. All-time is a different story.

John Walls Era
07-22-2011, 12:58 AM
on the contrary mchale is one of the most UNDERATED pf ever for me he is second behind duncan.

he had the "bad luck" to be paired up with Bird so people dont realy apreciate him, he is in the same boat than west because of baylor thna worhty because of magic, than pip because of jordan etc etc.

I might have to agree with that. Thats probably why I undervalue him.


I really like your post, and I didn't cheat, this would be a pretty cool idea for a thread

Yeah. I rarely make threads in the NBA forum though.

Evolution23
07-22-2011, 01:05 AM
Lebron James for sure. No way should he be in the GOAT conversation, ever.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 01:22 AM
Agreed on that bold part. Dirk was rated alright before he won the championship. He started getting overrated after the finals, which I understand people are living in the moment.

I think if anything, he was underrated before his championship. But some numbers on his prime:

Dirk's best 5 consecutive years in Win Shares is around equal to Karl Malone and KG. His best 5 consecutive years are better than Barkley, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, etc.

Sounds odd but its true. I'm not saying he's better than them because obviously you can't look at only numbers but his 5 year prime was statistically superior if you use Win Shares.

The thing that drags him down is his below average D early in his career, eventually turning into decent to good D but never great D. Obviously some of the guys I listed above were far superior defensively, which is why Dirk is not better then them. But his numbers are pretty remarkable.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 01:28 AM
I have a hard time taking you serious. And im not gonna debate with you because i dont care about advanced stats..

I have a question for you, do you hate advanced stats because they don't "rate/rank" Kobe as high as you think they should?

Basically, what I'm asking is do you think because say TS% says Kobe isn't that efficient, you think its a bogus stat because its not saying Kobe is the greatest player in the world?

It sure seems that way. Kind of sad.

Another question for you, are you an NBA fan or a Kobe fan? So when Kobe hangs it up, will you still watch the NBA?

PS- TS% is simply points per possession. Very simple concept to understand, that is if you truly understand basketball.

Korman12
07-22-2011, 01:34 AM
I'm surprised this hasn't gotten too out of hand so far.

Reggie Miller and George Mikan are two that seem the most to me. Probably others I can't think of at the moment.

WadeKobe
07-22-2011, 02:07 AM
I'm shock! That people think Wade is overrated. I'll personally think he's underrated. He's the second best shot blocking SG behind, Michael Jordan.

Actually, Wade averages more per season for his career, more per game for his career, more per 36min, and has a higher block% than MJ, and he's 2 inches shorter. Wade will likely finish with more total blocks than Jordan also.

Jordan is the GOAT, and is GOD as far as defense is concerned... but Wade is the better shot-blocker, and the greatest at the guard position ever.

Cano4prez
07-22-2011, 02:07 AM
Iverson

toovey107
07-22-2011, 02:08 AM
Past: Isiah Thomas

Present: Carmelo Anthony

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 02:20 AM
Kobe's prime isn't nearly as great as people try to make it out to be.

basketfan4life
07-22-2011, 10:00 AM
Kobe's prime isn't nearly as great as people try to make it out to be.

Finally the OP got what he is asking for.

juno10
07-22-2011, 10:11 AM
I have a question for you, do you hate advanced stats because they don't "rate/rank" Kobe as high as you think they should?

Basically, what I'm asking is do you think because say TS% says Kobe isn't that efficient, you think its a bogus stat because its not saying Kobe is the greatest player in the world?

It sure seems that way. Kind of sad.

Another question for you, are you an NBA fan or a Kobe fan? So when Kobe hangs it up, will you still watch the NBA?

PS- TS% is simply points per possession. Very simple concept to understand, that is if you truly understand basketball.

i believe the proper term is Kobe stan.

eso
07-22-2011, 10:13 AM
at the moment i would say Lebron.. but that will change
Dwight is also overrated at the moment
Bynum (even as a Lakers Fan) is over rated
all 3 could change that opinion though
in the past Karl Malone, Garry Payton, Shawn Kemp, Detleph Shremph, Big Smoth shyt that whole Seattle team. Robert Parish, Kevin Garnett, I could keep going but they come to mind first

ghettosean
07-22-2011, 10:20 AM
Full line up : Starters

Allen Iverson ( some people think he was great.....yeah a great chuker)
David Thompson ( people thought he was a star, but was a chuker)
Dominique Wilkins ( flashy but never delivered in Playoffs)
Dirk Nowitzy(as in people is right now talking some top20 ever B.S)Russell ( as in people put him in Goat conversations not factoring he had a MONSTER team filled of HOF at every position)

Bench:

Payton ( he was very good but not GREAT, or at least not greater than KIDD but people thing otherwise massively)
Reggie Miller ( great shooter no doubt but people think of him as a great franchise dude who really wasnt).
Carmelo Anthony ( he is NOT a dude that will lead a team to a Ring)
Shawn Kemp ( very strong, very athletic, nothing in between his ears yet peopel thought he was good, gone teh athelticism gone his "game")
Shaq ( some people have the balls to place him top 5 all time wich is basically overating him)

Ok I'm just curious as to who you think is top 20 of all time. I would actually put Dirk in this category for a few reasons but mainly because he is one of the most versitile big men of all time. He's also the complete offensive package because he can do everything --> Dunk, post moves, hook, fade away, 3 pointers, drive to the basket... etc.

So I guess I'm wondering who your top 20 is because Dirk would be on my list... Might squeeze to top 25 at the most but he's up there for me but if you post your 20 I'll post mine ;)

I'd actually say Dirk is one of the most underrated players ever since he's been called soft his entire career. Told he's not a good vocal leader and that he doesn't have the passion/heart to make it in the playoffs.

I hope all the people that said this and called him soft now feel comfortable calling him "Champion" or "MVP" take your pick ;)

SteBO
07-22-2011, 10:22 AM
Kobe's prime isn't nearly as great as people try to make it out to be.

How so?

JordansBulls
07-22-2011, 10:42 AM
Agreed on that bold part. Dirk was rated alright before he won the championship. He started getting overrated after the finals, which I understand people are living in the moment.

If you compare:

In the regular season for PER:
Dirk's is 23.73 #15 while Bird's is 23.50 #19

In the playoffs for PER
Dirk is at 24.75 #7 while Bird is a at 21.41 #27

7. Dirk Nowitzki 24.75
27. Larry Bird* 21.41




In the season for WS/PER 48
Dirk is #12 while Bird is #19

12. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2137
19. Larry Bird* 0.2032


In the playoffs Dirk is #5 in WS/PER 48 while Bird is #35

5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2067
35. Larry Bird* 0.1731

Hellcrooner
07-22-2011, 10:43 AM
Ok I'm just curious as to who you think is top 20 of all time. I would actually put Dirk in this category for a few reasons but mainly because he is one of the most versitile big men of all time. He's also the complete offensive package because he can do everything --> Dunk, post moves, hook, fade away, 3 pointers, drive to the basket... etc.

So I guess I'm wondering who your top 20 is because Dirk would be on my list... Might squeeze to top 25 at the most but he's up there for me but if you post your 20 I'll post mine ;)

I'd actually say Dirk is one of the most underrated players ever since he's been called soft his entire career. Told he's not a good vocal leader and that he doesn't have the passion/heart to make it in the playoffs.

I hope all the people that said this and called him soft now feel comfortable calling him "Champion" or "MVP" take your pick ;)
Better than dirk hands down.
Pg: Magic/stockton/thomas/Kidd/Cousy/
Sg:Jordan/kobe/robertson/West/Wade
Sf:Bird/Baylor/Dr J/Havlicek/Barry/drexler/
Pf: Duncan/Mchale/Garnett/K Malone/Pettit/Barkley
C:Kareem/Wilt/Shaq/Russell/Olajuwon/Mikan/Moses Malone

thats 30 better careers than his that no one should argue agaisnt.

now lets go with players that you can ARGUE(some are more far fetched than others) as being better or having better careers.
(no order in the lists)
C:Bellamy/Reed/Gilmore/Ewing/ Robinson
Pf: Thurmond / Cowens/Debuschere/Mo Lucas/Issell/Van de weghe/Mcadoo/pau:p/Hayes
Sf:Vandeweghe/Worhty/Wilkins/B King(healthy)/Grant Hill(healthy)/Dantley/Mullin
Sg:Wilkes/Gervin/English/R Miller/ Dumars/
PG:Nash/Payton/Monroe/Frazier
so thats another 30 names ( and im surely forgetting some) players that you can ARGUE as better than him.

So providing you can dispute 5 or 6 names of the First list and dispute 20 names of the second list

it would still make him somwhere around 30th in history.
definetly NOT top 20
before the ring he was around 40th so he has taken a step up
and MORE RINGS could definetly put him top 20
but he still is NOT top 20

since many people is claiming him top 20 NOW he is being Overated.
wheres the hate in my reasoning?

eso
07-22-2011, 10:44 AM
My top 20 List.

1= no brainer it Jordan and nobody can argue with that period full stop next 19 is up for conversation
2 = Magic (most complete player ever)
3 = Larry Bird = (smartest)
4 = Hakeem ( im not gona explain any more)
5 = Kobe
6 = Tim Duncan
7 = John Stocktin
9 = Shaq
10 = Charles Barkley
11 = Wilt
12 = David Robinson
13 = Scottie Pippen
14 = Doc J
15 = Kevin Garnett
16 = Isiah Thomas
17 = Kareem
18 = Karl Malone
19 = Lebron
20 = Wade

last 2 could jump up just not yet. also i didnt include guys from way back because guys like jerry west would of got raped by these guys.

Hellcrooner
07-22-2011, 10:44 AM
If you compare:

In the regular season for PER:
Dirk's is 23.73 #15 while Bird's is 23.50 #19

In the playoffs for PER
Dirk is at 24.75 #7 while Bird is a at 21.41 #27

7. Dirk Nowitzki 24.75
27. Larry Bird* 21.41




In the season for WS/PER 48
Dirk is #12 while Bird is #19

12. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2137
19. Larry Bird* 0.2032


In the playoffs Dirk is #5 in WS/PER 48 while Bird is #35

5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2067
35. Larry Bird* 0.1731

and thats the ultimate proof that advanced stats have weaknesses.
or are you gonna tell me Dirk is better than Larry.

JordansBulls
07-22-2011, 10:47 AM
and thats the ultimate proof that advanced stats have weaknesses.
or are you gonna tell me Dirk is better than Larry.

I didn't say he was better than Bird, but to say Dirk is overrated when he has better numbers than Bird, then what would that say about Bird?

Hellcrooner
07-22-2011, 10:49 AM
I didn't say he was better than Bird, but to say Dirk is overrated when he has better numbers than Bird, then what would that say about Bird?

that hadnt there been a magic he would be looking at 8 rings? ( and a ncaa championship too :p)

works the other way around too

AIRMAR72
07-22-2011, 10:54 AM
kobe bryant,darius miles,felipe lopez,carmelo athony,god shamgod,carlos boozer,adam morrison,derrick fisher,yao ming,dwight howard,jalen rose,juwan howard,kyle koover

eso
07-22-2011, 10:54 AM
The NBA is a lot softer and watered down (in other words shyt )
than it used to be Dirk in the 90's would of got scared and gone back to europe.

bradyoverrated
07-22-2011, 10:55 AM
Andrew Bynum

Michael Jordan

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 11:02 AM
I have a question for you, do you hate advanced stats because they don't "rate/rank" Kobe as high as you think they should?

Basically, what I'm asking is do you think because say TS% says Kobe isn't that efficient, you think its a bogus stat because its not saying Kobe is the greatest player in the world?

It sure seems that way. Kind of sad.

Another question for you, are you an NBA fan or a Kobe fan? So when Kobe hangs it up, will you still watch the NBA?

PS- TS% is simply points per possession. Very simple concept to understand, that is if you truly understand basketball.

Oh i get it.. Your one of those guys that think that because im laker fan i want everything to be in "Kobe Bryants" favor...

Geargo Wallace
07-22-2011, 11:05 AM
I didn't say he was better than Bird, but to say Dirk is overrated when he has better numbers than Bird, then what would that say about Bird?

I'm just curious about the top 5 PER's each year in the NBA during the 80's. I can't find it!

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-22-2011, 11:07 AM
Full line up : Starters

Allen Iverson ( some people think he was great.....yeah a great chuker)
David Thompson ( people thought he was a star, but was a chuker)
Dominique Wilkins ( flashy but never delivered in Playoffs)
Dirk Nowitzy(as in people is right now talking some top20 ever B.S)
Russell ( as in people put him in Goat conversations not factoring he had a MONSTER team filled of HOF at every position)

Bench:

Payton ( he was very good but not GREAT, or at least not greater than KIDD but people thing otherwise massively)
Reggie Miller ( great shooter no doubt but people think of him as a great franchise dude who really wasnt).
Carmelo Anthony ( he is NOT a dude that will lead a team to a Ring)
Shawn Kemp ( very strong, very athletic, nothing in between his ears yet peopel thought he was good, gone teh athelticism gone his "game")
Shaq ( some people have the balls to place him top 5 all time wich is basically overating him)

I'd really like to see a list of your fave players... Carmelo not being able to lead a team to a title. your outta your mind. he lead syracuse to a ring. Almost single handedly beat the C's by himself.

Cromedome
07-22-2011, 11:13 AM
This thread has been a waste of time. I figured i'd see players such as Kwame Brown, Sam Bowie, Greg Oden or Darko....but instead I see LITTLE KIDS, who know nothing about the game, talk about how Jordan and Shaq are overrated?


I can't wait until this summer break is over so that you little kids can go back to the 3rd grade.

PJAF
07-22-2011, 11:17 AM
Oscar Robertson is no way overrated as he is the greatest of all ime > Michael Jordan. Now back to the question, the answer is Tracy Macgrady.

alencp3
07-22-2011, 11:31 AM
* enters thread * :mad:

no one said pistol pete :)

* leaves thread * :cool:

Chronz
07-22-2011, 11:38 AM
Yea its definitely Oscar Robertson, fan boys with limited understanding of statistics are so enamored with his triple double line that they forego the effects of pace/efficiency

Chronz
07-22-2011, 11:41 AM
* enters thread * :mad:

no one said pistol pete :)

* leaves thread * :cool:
Another good one, Pistol was arguably too good for his own good, he lacked the efficiency necessary to lead your team, that tends to happen when you master the 3pt shot without there actually being a 3pt shot and try to showboat in a league that doesnt really allow it.

Max Power
07-22-2011, 11:49 AM
James Worthy

Terrible defender.
Even worse rebounder.
Had Magic spoon feeding him

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 12:05 PM
lmao.. Everyone has named the greatest players of all time in this thread...

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 12:20 PM
Oh i get it.. Your one of those guys that think that because im laker fan i want everything to be in "Kobe Bryants" favor...

Well, now I do. You didn't exactly answer any of my questions.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-22-2011, 12:35 PM
My top 20 List.

1= no brainer it Jordan and nobody can argue with that period full stop next 19 is up for conversation
2 = Magic (most complete player ever)
3 = Larry Bird = (smartest)
4 = Hakeem ( im not gona explain any more)
5 = Kobe
6 = Tim Duncan
7 = John Stocktin
9 = Shaq
10 = Charles Barkley
11 = Wilt
12 = David Robinson
13 = Scottie Pippen
14 = Doc J
15 = Kevin Garnett
16 = Isiah Thomas
17 = Kareem
18 = Karl Malone
19 = Lebron
20 = Wade

last 2 could jump up just not yet. also i didnt include guys from way back because guys like jerry west would of got raped by these guys.

That's one of the worst lists I've ever seen.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 12:47 PM
Yea its definitely Oscar Robertson, fan boys with limited understanding of statistics are so enamored with his triple double line that they forego the effects of pace/efficiency

His Win Share/PER numbers were pretty good :shrug: But with so many stats not being tracked, that's probably the problem with using those numbers.

Swashcuff
07-22-2011, 12:51 PM
Well, now I do. You didn't exactly answer any of my questions.

He doesn't answer anyone's questions.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 12:59 PM
He doesn't answer anyone's questions.

That's probably true but my questions were basically directly tied to his Kobe fanhood, which he of course answered by answering the way he did. At least he essentially admitted it by leaving his response so open ended.

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 01:00 PM
He doesn't answer anyone's questions.

Because answering some of you peoples questions are a waste of time.. Most of you dont really watch basketball and the only way you choose to argue with me is advanced stats. Im not gonna argue made up stats. If advanced stats show that Kobe Bryant isnt a great player, so be it.. We all know the real truth.

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 01:03 PM
That's probably true but my questions were basically directly tied to his Kobe fanhood, which he of course answered by answering the way he did. At least he essentially admitted it by leaving his response so open ended.

what the ****? Your "question" was condescending im not answering that dumb ****... Im a Laker fan, of course i side with Kobe. I dont give a **** about what advanced stats say because my lakers are winners lead by Kobe bean himself. Thats all i care about... You guys care about stats... lol... Run and play..

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 01:04 PM
lmao@ PSD's advanced stats.......

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 01:04 PM
Because answering some of you peoples questions are a waste of time.. Most of you dont really watch basketball and the only way you choose to argue with me is advanced stats. Im not gonna argue made up stats. If advanced stats show that Kobe Bryant isnt a great player, so be it.. We all know the real truth.

Uh, no one has said advanced stats show that Kobe isn't a great player. Your implying that one up on your own.

But thanks for essentially answering my question. You don't like advanced stats because they don't show Kobe is the GOAT. Your problem has nothing to do with the stats, you think they're stupid because they don't show your favorite guy as being as good as you think he is.

And with your other response, you basically answered my other question, which is that your a Kobe fan and not an NBA fan. And you'll stop watching when Kobe retires.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that but don't insult others because of your own insecurities.

naps
07-22-2011, 01:08 PM
Because answering some of you peoples questions are a waste of time.. Most of you dont really watch basketball and the only way you choose to argue with me is advanced stats. Im not gonna argue made up stats. If advanced stats show that Kobe Bryant isnt a great player, so be it.. We all know the real truth.

haha...let's be honest here. Would you not care if those advanced stats showed Kobe was a superior player than most? Gimme the ans!

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 01:08 PM
I got an advanced stat for you guys.. Its called "The H&C" percentage (Heart and Clutch).. Its a bunch of different factors to give you ones effectiveness in clutch situations... The formula is this: Playoffs x Homecourt x Back against the wall x fourth quarter performance x winning. Lebron = 0%... He's a horrible player....

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 01:09 PM
haha...let's be honest here. Would you not care if those advanced stats showed Kobe was a superior player than most? Gimme the ans!

Nope, cuz kobe will still have 5 rings... BAM!!!!

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 01:10 PM
what the ****? Your "question" was condescending im not answering that dumb ****... Im a Laker fan, of course i side with Kobe. I dont give a **** about what advanced stats say because my lakers are winners lead by Kobe bean himself. Thats all i care about... You guys care about stats... lol... Run and play..

Right, well if someone said that to me, I might be more offended and thus try to brag about how much I've watched other teams in the NBA besides the Knicks. But you didn't. You essentially said, "oh, this guy thinks I'm a Kobe homer", uh, well I am, so um "so ur one of those people who thinks I'm a Kobe homer". End sentence, without actually denying anything.

Swashcuff
07-22-2011, 01:10 PM
No one is talking about LeBron James but every single argument this nickydemz has is about LeBron. I swear the guy is obsessed. Without fail every time there's the name LeBron he's there. I mean seriously. You seriously need to get a life.

Swashcuff
07-22-2011, 01:13 PM
A thread could be labelled "the least athelitic white player in basketball" and some way nickydemz would turn the discussion into LeBron James has no heart and he's not clutch and as such is a horrible player. I really pity someone who hates someone so much that his very existence revolves around his hate for a guy who doesn't give a flying **** of his opinion on him.

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 01:13 PM
Do you guys like my "H&C" advanced stat or not???

naps
07-22-2011, 01:14 PM
Nope, cuz kobe will still have 5 rings... BAM!!!!

Robert Horry has 7 rings! Since rings mean everything Horry>>Kobe as well.

Oh serious question: Do you have a man-crush with LeBron? Why do you have to bring his name everywhere?

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 01:15 PM
A thread could be labelled "the least athelitic white player in basketball" and some way nickydemz would turn the discussion into LeBron James has no heart and he's not clutch and as such is a horrible player. I really pity someone who hates someone so much that his very existence revolves around his hate for a guy who doesn't give a flying **** of his opinion on him.

Dont be ignorant buddy... Look through this thread and tell me that im the first one to mention Lebron.. You just dont like me because im right all the time.. I say facts, not ******** and what ifs or speak on potential...

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 01:15 PM
Dont be ignorant buddy... Look through this thread and tell me that im the first one to mention Lebron.. You just dont like me because im right all the time.. I say facts, not ******** and what ifs or speak on potential...

I love the way you've ignored all of my posts since I've called you out.

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 01:16 PM
Robert Horry has 7 rings! Since rings mean everything Horry>>Kobe as well.

Oh serious question: Do you have a man-crush with LeBron? Why do you have to bring his name everywhere?

Nope, Robert Horry was never a number 1 or 2 option on a championship team and has no finals MVP's.. That argument is simple... lol... Good try though.... Dont fall into the void here with these people.. I comment on plenty of stuff on PSD... They only point out my Lebron comments.... lol.... And its not even close

juno10
07-22-2011, 01:17 PM
No one is talking about LeBron James but every single argument this nickydemz has is about LeBron. I swear the guy is obsessed. Without fail every time there's the name LeBron he's there. I mean seriously. You seriously need to get a life.

because lebron has a legit chance of surpassing kobe all-time and he is also is having a hard time believing his idol isnt the best player anymore and just doesn't want to admit lbj was the one who dethroned him. lebron is the only guy currently who threatening his idol so obviously he'll hate on him.

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 01:17 PM
I love the way you've ignored all of my posts since I've called you out.

lmao.. I think your ******** dude for real.. Ive answered all your questions.. Its just not the one you wanted to hear....

naps
07-22-2011, 01:18 PM
I love the way you've ignored all of my posts since I've called you out.

Why would he answer you? Kobe has 5 rings!! That's the universal answer right there for any question!

Kashmir13579
07-22-2011, 01:18 PM
I love the way you've ignored all of my posts since I've called you out.

Trolls only fight battles where they can come away with a flesh wound. He doesn't want his head chopped clean off.

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 01:19 PM
because lebron has a legit chance of surpassing kobe all-time and he is also is having a hard time believing his idol isnt the best player anymore and just doesn't want to admit lbj was the one who dethroned him. lebron is the only guy currently who threatening his idol so obviously he'll hate on him.

Wrong again computer nerd.. My "idols" in basketball are (In no particular order) Jordan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, and thomas...

naps
07-22-2011, 01:19 PM
Nope, Robert Horry was never a number 1 or 2 option on a championship team and has no finals MVP's.. That argument is simple... lol... Good try though.... Dont fall into the void here with these people.. I comment on plenty of stuff on PSD... They only point out my Lebron comments.... lol.... And its not even close

Doesn't matter what option he was! He still won more rings than Kobe!

BlitzBlud4
07-22-2011, 01:19 PM
Jason Kidd
Kobe Bryant
Allen Iverson
Antoine Walker
Mitch Richmond
Bill Russell

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 01:20 PM
lmao.. I think your ******** dude for real.. Ive answered all your questions.. Its just not the one you wanted to hear....

Really? I don't recall you ever saying that you'll not stop watching the NBA once Kobe retires.

Now you're insulting me because you're getting backed into a corner. There's nothing wrong with being a Kobe fanboy.

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 01:20 PM
Why would he answer you? Kobe has 5 rings!! That's the universal answer right there for any question!

Now your getting... I only care about WINNING!


Trolls only fight battles where they can come away with a flesh wound. He doesn't want his head chopped clean off.

Your dads a troll..

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 01:21 PM
Trolls only fight battles where they can come away with a flesh wound. He doesn't want his head chopped clean off.

Look at our back in forth in this thread, I think you'll find it quite entertaining.

juno10
07-22-2011, 01:22 PM
Wrong again computer nerd.. My "idols" in basketball are (In no particular order) Jordan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, and thomas...

where the hell did that come from.

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 01:22 PM
Really? I don't recall you ever saying that you'll not stop watching the NBA once Kobe retires.

Now you're insulting me because you're getting backed into a corner. There's nothing wrong with being a Kobe fanboy.

lol, oh **** you asked me that? Why are you even concerned about that??? lmao... Thats ignorant.. But to answer your pointless question, of course Im gonna watch basketball when Kobe retires... lmfao.. wtf?? I watched long before he came, and will long after he leaves.... hahahah, you people thinking i care that much about Kobe.. I just get confused when some of you people say he isnt great.. Its dumb...

naps
07-22-2011, 01:23 PM
Now your getting... I only care about WINNING!



True that! WINNING and nothing else, hence Horry>>Kobe!

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 01:23 PM
where the hell did that come from.

Because to me your a computer nerd.. lol.. I dont know you..

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 01:23 PM
True that! WINNING and nothing else, hence Horry>>Kobe!

So you didnt read my response to you huh? Ok...

naps
07-22-2011, 01:25 PM
So you didnt read my response to you huh? Ok...

C'mon man! We only care about WINNING!! Luke Walton has 2 rings! He is better than LeBron as well! WINNING talks just like money talks. Nothing else matters!

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 01:26 PM
lol, oh **** you asked me that? Why are you even concerned about that??? lmao... Thats ignorant.. But to answer your pointless question, of course Im gonna watch basketball when Kobe retires... lmfao.. wtf?? I watched long before he came, and will long after he leaves.... hahahah, you people thinking i care that much about Kobe.. I just get confused when some of you people say he isnt great.. Its dumb...

Right, but you still didn't answer whether you watch the NBA or just the Lakers. When I essentially asked that earlier, you just said "I'm a Kobe/Laker fanboy, screw you".

PS- How is that ignorant when you never answered it. BTW, do you even know what ignorant means? How can someone be ignorant for asking whether someone is a Kobe fanboy or not?

Kashmir13579
07-22-2011, 01:52 PM
Look at our back in forth in this thread, I think you'll find it quite entertaining.

:laugh2:

entertaining, indeed.

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 02:16 PM
C'mon man! We only care about WINNING!! Luke Walton has 2 rings! He is better than LeBron as well! WINNING talks just like money talks. Nothing else matters!

hahahaha... This guy is like 15

John Walls Era
07-22-2011, 02:21 PM
This thread has been a waste of time. I figured i'd see players such as Kwame Brown, Sam Bowie, Greg Oden or Darko....but instead I see LITTLE KIDS, who know nothing about the game, talk about how Jordan and Shaq are overrated?


I can't wait until this summer break is over so that you little kids can go back to the 3rd grade.

How the hell are those 4 overrated? Did you read the question?

Geargo Wallace
07-22-2011, 02:32 PM
This thread finally turned into what we thought it would turn into.

I nominate Bill Russel.

Lord Loss
07-22-2011, 02:39 PM
Rondo. Top 5 point guard no way in hell.

LosDoyers1
07-22-2011, 02:41 PM
Lebron James. Some people try to put him in the GOAT discussion and he hasn't done anything yet (outside the regular season).

This is a good one. Everybody talks about him trying to chase Jordan or even get Kobe's five rings :facepalm:

Let's wait till he wins just ONE championship...

naps
07-22-2011, 02:42 PM
hahahaha... This guy is like 15

Really? I thought I was following your logic...only RINGS matter! Now it's not helping you in this case so you are gonna make another exception?
Hear me out, if Kobe wasn't fortunate enough to play for such a great and storied franchise and play in stacked teams for most of his career, he would be no different than AI or Tmac or Vince. Most stars **** on Kobe's advanced stats.

GoPacers33
07-22-2011, 03:02 PM
Ai

WadeKobe
07-22-2011, 03:03 PM
Jason Kidd
Kobe Bryant
Allen Iverson
Antoine Walker
Mitch Richmond
Bill Russell

:facepalm:

WadeKobe
07-22-2011, 03:10 PM
duplicate post

Stunner
07-22-2011, 03:19 PM
where the hell did that come from.

Your should change your sig

Raph12
07-22-2011, 03:30 PM
Too many to list and if you wanted a serious answer you should've had some definitive criteria in order for us to make an informed decision.

justOmazing
07-22-2011, 03:44 PM
Here we go with yet another "overrated" thread.

Mr Haha
07-22-2011, 04:01 PM
I happen to think sports are overrated. Maybe life, too.

BlitzBlud4
07-22-2011, 04:05 PM
:facepalm:

What's wrong?

--23--
07-22-2011, 04:06 PM
Lebron, he's a very skilled player but there's no way in hell ppl should be calling him the GOAT or even a "King".

Hell I'm thinking about removing that "Best player in the NBA/World" tag away from him, The best player in the world don't give up and die down under pressure 2 years in a row....atleast go out with a fight smh.

29$JerZ
07-22-2011, 04:09 PM
Every good player is overrated and every unappreciated player is underrated until he gets more buzz and becomes overrated
Doesn't matter imo

D1JM
07-22-2011, 04:12 PM
David stern and his boy Patrick Ewing

WadeKobe
07-22-2011, 04:49 PM
What's wrong?

There's no conceivable way to argue that Jason Kidd is overrated. The dude was the defensive go-to on a championship team at age 38, and you're going to say he's overrated? :mad:

He's arguably the greatest defensive point guard to ever play the game of basketball. He's the only player in NBA history with 15,000 points, 10,000 assists and 7,000 rebounds. He is 3rd all time in triple doubles, and one of only 3 to ever accomplish that feat (and he has done it in more impressive fashion than Oscar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18488869&postcount=126)).

2nd all time in Assists.
3rd all time in 3-point fg.
1st all time among PG in 3-point fg.
7th all time in assists per game
7th all time in assist percentage
1st all time among PG in all defensive selections

He's no doubt a top 5 PG to ever play the game of basketball, arguably top 3.

Unless people are calling him the GOAT PG, he's not overrated. Plain and simple.

BlitzBlud4
07-22-2011, 05:45 PM
There's no conceivable way to argue that Jason Kidd is overrated. The dude was the defensive go-to on a championship team at age 38, and you're going to say he's overrated? :mad:

He's arguably the greatest defensive point guard to ever play the game of basketball. He's the only player in NBA history with 15,000 points, 10,000 assists and 7,000 rebounds. He is 3rd all time in triple doubles, and one of only 3 to ever accomplish that feat (and he has done it in more impressive fashion than Oscar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18488869&postcount=126)).

2nd all time in Assists.
3rd all time in 3-point fg.
1st all time among PG in 3-point fg.
7th all time in assists per game
7th all time in assist percentage
1st all time among PG in all defensive selections

He's no doubt a top 5 PG to ever play the game of basketball, arguably top 3.

Unless people are calling him the GOAT PG, he's not overrated. Plain and simple.

I consider him overrated mainly how people rate him. I think he gets overrated when people consider a top 3 PG of alltime. And I personally have him outside my top 5 PG alltime. He's too inefficient, and was a poor shooter for most of his career. He was a great passer, good rebounder (his rebound total are also somewhat flawed because he played with below average reboundib big's for most of his career), good defender (his defense is also a little overrated IMO). Payton, I consider a better defender than Kidd and possibly the best defensive PG. And listing career totals is a poor way to measure him, because he had a long career, so obviously the totals will look good. Not saying he sucks, but is overrated.

bagwell368
07-22-2011, 05:54 PM
These type of threads don't go well because posters get upset when you list a player they are fans of.

But I'd say Oscar Robertson only for the fact that you had some people think he deserves to be in the top 5 all time with one mvp, and winning a title as the 2nd fiddle on his team.

Tough to win MVP's with Russell and Chamberlain and West and Baylor.

His team sucked until he wasn't special anymore. Not sure he's top 5, but he's not far out of it.

Tree Rollins
07-22-2011, 05:57 PM
No disrespect to other PFs, just picked some off the top of my head. Forgot guys like Mchale (who is also kinda overrated).

McHale had one of the best back-to-the-basket games in the history of the NBA. He had moves on top of moves. On one of the most stacked teams in the history of the league, he put up almost 24 pts. 9rbs. and blocked 2 shots a game. Sick numbers on a championship team. I don't think he gets enough credit for all that.

nickdymez
07-22-2011, 06:13 PM
I consider him overrated mainly how people rate him. I think he gets overrated when people consider a top 3 PG of alltime. And I personally have him outside my top 5 PG alltime. He's too inefficient, and was a poor shooter for most of his career. He was a great passer, good rebounder (his rebound total are also somewhat flawed because he played with below average reboundib big's for most of his career), good defender (his defense is also a little overrated IMO). Payton, I consider a better defender than Kidd and possibly the best defensive PG. And listing career totals is a poor way to measure him, because he had a long career, so obviously the totals will look good. Not saying he sucks, but is overrated.

I dont believe he was a poor shooter for most of his career. I'll give you the early part of his career. There is no way you can be top 3, three point shooter of all time and be poor for MOST of your career. And i dont get how he's inefficient at all.. Isnt he top 3 in triple doubles for a point guard? And regardless if his bigs were below average rebounders, he still did what he had to do on the glass.. I think his defense is underated if you ask me. He was guarding the top scores on each team the mavs faced in the playoffs this year. He's no GP as far as body of work (defense), but that showed me a lot..

WadeKobe
07-22-2011, 07:11 PM
I consider him overrated mainly how people rate him. I think he gets overrated when people consider a top 3 PG of alltime. And I personally have him outside my top 5 PG alltime. He's too inefficient, and was a poor shooter for most of his career. He was a great passer, good rebounder (his rebound total are also somewhat flawed because he played with below average reboundib big's for most of his career), good defender (his defense is also a little overrated IMO). Payton, I consider a better defender than Kidd and possibly the best defensive PG. And listing career totals is a poor way to measure him, because he had a long career, so obviously the totals will look good. Not saying he sucks, but is overrated.

First of all... what he said vvv


I dont believe he was a poor shooter for most of his career. I'll give you the early part of his career. There is no way you can be top 3, three point shooter of all time and be poor for MOST of your career. And i dont get how he's inefficient at all.. Isnt he top 3 in triple doubles for a point guard? And regardless if his bigs were below average rebounders, he still did what he had to do on the glass.. I think his defense is underated if you ask me. He was guarding the top scores on each team the mavs faced in the playoffs this year. He's no GP as far as body of work (defense), but that showed me a lot..

Second of all, he's easily top 5. To say he's not is just insanity. The guy was still playing lock-down defense at age 38 on a championship team, and his D is overrated!?!? :facepalm:

Jason Kidd is the greatest PG we've seen since John Stockton, and is top 5 of all time, no doubt. There are only 3 PG who were without a doubt clearly better than him: Magic and Stockton. After that, Jason Kidd is in the conversation at any place 3-5.

The man is a legend, and is largely underrated. Tons, and tons of people seem to feel the way you do, and it's crazy.

BlitzBlud4
07-22-2011, 07:28 PM
I dont believe he was a poor shooter for most of his career. I'll give you the early part of his career. There is no way you can be top 3, three point shooter of all time and be poor for MOST of your career. And i dont get how he's inefficient at all.. Isnt he top 3 in triple doubles for a point guard? And regardless if his bigs were below average rebounders, he still did what he had to do on the glass.. I think his defense is underated if you ask me. He was guarding the top scores on each team the mavs faced in the playoffs this year. He's no GP as far as body of work (defense), but that showed me a lot..

He was a poor shooter for most of his career. He's a career 40% shooter from the field, and 34% 3PT shooter. He did imporve his 3PT shooter later on when he became a Net, but he was still showing in the low 40's, high 30's in field goal %. Also bringing up his triple-doubles to say he isn't inefficient doesn't really make sense. His inefficiency comes from his low shooting %, and his turnovers. Triple-doubles are an overrated stat when considering some one great IMO. For example, he's had many td's where he would get 10-13pts, 10rebs, 10+asts on 40% shooting. His triple double accomplishments are impressive, but there aren't everything and were flawed. And I dont see his defence as underrated at all. Many analysts and people consider a great defender and rank him among the elite defenders of PG's.

bagwell368
07-22-2011, 07:45 PM
McHale had one of the best back-to-the-basket games in the history of the NBA. He had moves on top of moves. On one of the most stacked teams in the history of the league, he put up almost 24 pts. 9rbs. and blocked 2 shots a game. Sick numbers on a championship team. I don't think he gets enough credit for all that.

Correct. McHale also has bar none the best fallaway jumper of all time. He numbers per season don't look as good because he started as a sixth man (they had Bird and Maxwell too), then later after he broke his foot and kept playing, he didn't play a lot at the end, bu this WS/48 of .180, offensive rebounding, FG%, FT%, blocks, and defense (he had to guard the best scoring forward on the other team, while Bird got the lesser guy). McHale dominated players from 6' 5" to 7" with his defense. One of the top 50 NBA Players of all time.

5ass
07-22-2011, 07:47 PM
Oscar robertson. Kobe bryant sometimes, also wilt chaberlain and bill russel. And I'll add charles Barkley too even though I love him. Oh and Tim duncan is overrated too. Ha I just pissed off alot of people, but I'm not done. My final player would be Michael Jordan, people act as if he is god and no one ever was or will be that good in the history of man kind. When in fact, even though I disagree, you can make a case for Kareem Abdul jabbar or magic Johnson, you want to talk about a complete basketball player how many players in NBA history can play all 5 positions very effectively.

BlitzBlud4
07-22-2011, 07:49 PM
First of all... what he said vvv



Second of all, he's easily top 5. To say he's not is just insanity. The guy was still playing lock-down defense at age 38 on a championship team, and his D is overrated!?!? :facepalm:

Jason Kidd is the greatest PG we've seen since John Stockton, and is top 5 of all time, no doubt. There are only 3 PG who were without a doubt clearly better than him: Magic and Stockton. After that, Jason Kidd is in the conversation at any place 3-5.

The man is a legend, and is largely underrated. Tons, and tons of people seem to feel the way you do, and it's crazy.

No, not really at all. Different opinions I guess. And he wasn't playing lock-down defense- it was good for his age but not lock-down. PG's I have rated over him are: Magic, Stockton, Thomas, Robertson, Cousy, Nash, and maybe Payton and Frazier.

And I dont see how he's really being underrated. After the Mavs won the title, many were considereing him a top 3 PG ever.

bagwell368
07-22-2011, 07:56 PM
None of these guys is the worst, but I disliked all of them every time I saw them play:

Bellamy
Wilkins
Vandeweghe

Stack_NJNets
07-22-2011, 08:18 PM
Gary Payton

Hawkeye15
07-22-2011, 09:05 PM
Oh i get it.. Your one of those guys that think that because im laker fan i want everything to be in "Kobe Bryants" favor...

you didn't answer his honest question. Instead of being a smart ***, tell us why you don't like advanced stats? And be specific instead of posting a smart *** answer

Swashcuff
07-22-2011, 09:08 PM
you didn't answer his honest question. Instead of being a smart ***, tell us why you don't like advanced stats? And be specific instead of posting a smart *** answer

He's not capable of not being one. I bet he responds to my response to you before he ever attempts to answer that question. All he'll do is say he doesn't care about us so he doesn't have to answer us.

Hawkeye15
07-22-2011, 09:09 PM
Because answering some of you peoples questions are a waste of time.. Most of you dont really watch basketball and the only way you choose to argue with me is advanced stats. Im not gonna argue made up stats. If advanced stats show that Kobe Bryant isnt a great player, so be it.. We all know the real truth.

I can virtually guarantee you I have been around and watched a lot more basketball than you have, and I don't ever agree with what you say.

Hawkeye15
07-22-2011, 09:13 PM
I got an advanced stat for you guys.. Its called "The H&C" percentage (Heart and Clutch).. Its a bunch of different factors to give you ones effectiveness in clutch situations... The formula is this: Playoffs x Homecourt x Back against the wall x fourth quarter performance x winning. Lebron = 0%... He's a horrible player....

they are not able to be measured, therefore nobody believes a word you say. Kobe averaged 15 ppg on horrendous shooting in a finals series and his TEAM won him a ring. Kobe went 6-24 in game 7 of the finals, and his TEAM won him a ring.

You have absolutely no ability to rationally debate. The reason you don't like advanced statistics is purely because they don't show Kobe in the top 10 of all time, something you just can't fathom, but is true. I highly doubt you are old enough or have the ability to comprehend basketball enough to have watched and understood what kind of players Jordan, Bird, Magic, or Kareem were.

When you get trapped, you throw out a, "LOL! Kobe has 5 rings!"

Awesome way to win debates

WadeKobe
07-22-2011, 09:23 PM
No, not really at all. Different opinions I guess. And he wasn't playing lock-down defense- it was good for his age but not lock-down. PG's I have rated over him are: Magic, Stockton, Thomas, Robertson, Cousy, Nash, and maybe Payton and Frazier.

And I dont see how he's really being underrated. After the Mavs won the title, many were considereing him a top 3 PG ever.

Not at all. And Nash doesn't have a prayer at ever passing Kidd. This is what I mean by underrated - it has nothing to do with opinions, Nash will never be as good as Kidd, yet youngsters think he is just because he's been better later in their careers. :facepalm:

KnicksorBust
07-22-2011, 09:23 PM
Dominique Wilkins

BlitzBlud4
07-22-2011, 09:38 PM
Not at all. And Nash doesn't have a prayer at ever passing Kidd. This is what I mean by underrated - it has nothing to do with opinions, Nash will never be as good as Kidd, yet youngsters think he is just because he's been better later in their careers. :facepalm:

I dont see how it's out of question to say Nash is better than Kidd alltime. And Nash is already better than Kidd and has been for a while. Nash has had the better career by a slight margin IMO. In fact, Nash's best season is superior to Kidd's best, so you saying "Nash will never be as good as Kidd" isn't correct. The only thing Kidd has over Nash is a ring, and Kidd won that as the 3rd or 4th best player.

Catfish1314
07-22-2011, 10:56 PM
Jason Kidd
Kobe Bryant
Allen Iverson
Antoine Walker
Mitch Richmond
Bill Russell

I don't know how anyone can say Mitch Richmond is overrated when no one ever talks about him.

jerellh528
07-23-2011, 12:31 AM
dirk
wade
lebron
first ones that come to mind, havent put a ton of thought into it though.

jerellh528
07-23-2011, 12:37 AM
I can virtually guarantee you I have been around and watched a lot more basketball than you have, and I don't ever agree with what you say.

so what? there used to be a 9 year old who graduated my old hs and went to harvard after that, he was better at school than me..just because your older or done something longer doesnt mean your better or more knowledgable.

jerellh528
07-23-2011, 12:40 AM
hawkeye advanced stats dont show kobe as top 10 all time right?
so do you think hes top 10 all time? Dont lie to yourself either please.

nickdymez
07-23-2011, 01:03 AM
hawkeye advanced stats dont show kobe as top 10 all time right?
so do you think hes top 10 all time? Dont lie to yourself either please.

Im telling you man, dont bother... They start getting mad at me when I dont want to debate advanced stats with them.. Thats all they know. If their advanced stats dont say kobe is a great player, then he's trash to them... Its pointless.. Its like talking to robots... Thats why i just ignore them. Im used to talking to real people about sports when people could point out events. Like Hawkeye said something about kobe shooting 6-24 in the finals.. He left the part out about Kobes 10 points in the fourth and the 15 rebounds he grabbed...

NetsPaint
07-23-2011, 01:15 AM
Rondo.

quade36
07-23-2011, 01:49 AM
I'm not trying to be a homer but there is no chance in hell Maravich is better than Wade. Wade has Maravich beat on almost every single stat. Plus correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think he has ever even won a playoff series

Without playing devils advocate you kind of are being a homer. Wade's stats are seriously slightly better than Pistol Pete's. Yes he has won a playoff series in 80. Also, if you want to compare overall basketball careers, Pete's college stats are ridiculously better than Wade's.

All in all, Pete was the star of his team whereas Wade for most of his career had a better player.

I would probably say Wade is better but a comment like no chance in hell is very homeristic. They are extremely close.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-23-2011, 02:48 AM
Im telling you man, dont bother... They start getting mad at me when I dont want to debate advanced stats with them.. Thats all they know. If their advanced stats dont say kobe is a great player, then he's trash to them... Its pointless.. Its like talking to robots... Thats why i just ignore them. Im used to talking to real people about sports when people could point out events. Like Hawkeye said something about kobe shooting 6-24 in the finals.. He left the part out about Kobes 10 points in the fourth and the 15 rebounds he grabbed...

Here's your problem: You think if people say Kobe isn't a top 10 player all-time, they're trashing Kobe. That is not the case AT ALL. Do you realize how good you have to be to be a top 10 player ALL-TIME? There's thousands and thousands of players that have played in the NBA and to be top 10 means you're better than a crap load of players.

NO ONE has said Kobe isn't a great player. You've made that up on your own because you are a Kobe fanboy who gets insulted whenever someone doesn't believe he's the GOAT or top 10 or whatever. He has to be great because he's your favorite player and you worship him. Nothing wrong with that but not everybody feels that way.

If you want to talk basketball knowledge, I guarantee you Hawkeye knows more then you, that other guy and a whole lot of other posters on this site.

I'll even be willing to administer a little trivia quiz and I guarantee you he beats a majority of posters on this site. Just because he uses (or anyone else) advanced stats, it doesn't mean that you don't watch the games.

Basketball enthusiasts should be encouraged to LEARN MORE ABOUT THE GAME. That includes all aspects from statistics, to basketball history, to watching as many games as possible.

Let me ask you something, how many games outside of the Lakers have you watched in your lifetime? Have you ever seen Hakeem play? Have you ever seen Duncan play? Have you ever seen Kareem play? How about Moses Malone? Or Bird? Or Magic?

I'm a big numbers guy but you want to know what I'm doing? I'm watching as many historical basketball games I can find so that I can try to better evaluate guys like Moses Malone, Kareem, etc. I want to be able to use numbers AND use the tape. The more INFORMATION, the better. You're missing that. And the big problem with ignoring numbers is that you can't see EVERY play of a players career. Can you honestly tell me you've watched every play that Kobe has been involved with? And can you honestly tell me that every play you've watched of Kobe's isn't seen with biased eyes? When Kobe misses a shot, do you even realize it? Or do you ignore it and pretend it didn't happen because he's your favorite player? Stuff like that happens when all you do is try to watch your favorite player from your own eyes. Sometimes a little stat check isn't a bad thing.

As for the whole advanced stats, forget how they rank Kobe. What's wrong with looking at points per possession? Aren't you trying to score on every possession? You have 24 seconds in a shot clock right? Your goal is to score every time but lets say you shoot early in the shot clock, you keep doing that and so you shoot more shot attempts, and make a lot but you also miss a lot of shot attempts. The other team gets the same amount of shot attempts but makes more, who will win? You score a lot but so does the other team. This is why the concept of pace is important.

FYI, coaches have been using the concept of pace for decades. The great Dean Smith used to use pace adjusted stats back in the 70s, way before you were born (thats sort of obvious to me). This concept is a decades old concept that is entrenched in basketball history but something you refuse to learn because you think it says one of your players isn't top 10 all-time? That seems kind of childish to me and more indicative of someone who isn't a true basketball fan. Basketball fans want to soak up knowledge and learn all they can about the game, not remain ignorant to different players, eras, concepts, stats etc.

Astronaut
07-23-2011, 02:57 AM
Dajuan Wagner
Antawn Jamison
Michael Jordan < Both are two of the greatest players ever, but with fame comes embellishment.
Kobe Bryant <



Here's your problem: You think if people say Kobe isn't a top 10 player all-time, they're trashing Kobe. That is not the case AT ALL. Do you realize how good you have to be to be a top 10 player ALL-TIME? There's thousands and thousands of players that have played in the NBA and to be top 10 means you're better than a crap load of players.

NO ONE has said Kobe isn't a great player. You've made that up on your own because you are a Kobe fanboy who gets insulted whenever someone doesn't believe he's the GOAT or top 10 or whatever. He has to be great because he's your favorite player and you worship him. Nothing wrong with that but not everybody feels that way.

If you want to talk basketball knowledge, I guarantee you Hawkeye knows more then you, that other guy and a whole lot of other posters on this site.

I'll even be willing to administer a little trivia quiz and I guarantee you he beats a majority of posters on this site. Just because he uses (or anyone else) advanced stats, it doesn't mean that you don't watch the games.

Basketball enthusiasts should be encouraged to LEARN MORE ABOUT THE GAME. That includes all aspects from statistics, to basketball history, to watching as many games as possible.

Let me ask you something, how many games outside of the Lakers have you watched in your lifetime? Have you ever seen Hakeem play? Have you ever seen Duncan play? Have you ever seen Kareem play? How about Moses Malone? Or Bird? Or Magic?

I'm a big numbers guy but you want to know what I'm doing? I'm watching as many historical basketball games I can find so that I can try to better evaluate guys like Moses Malone, Kareem, etc. I want to be able to use numbers AND use the tape. The more INFORMATION, the better. You're missing that. And the big problem with ignoring numbers is that you can't see EVERY play of a players career. Can you honestly tell me you've watched every play that Kobe has been involved with? And can you honestly tell me that every play you've watched of Kobe's isn't seen with biased eyes? When Kobe misses a shot, do you even realize it? Or do you ignore it and pretend it didn't happen because he's your favorite player? Stuff like that happens when all you do is try to watch your favorite player from your own eyes. Sometimes a little stat check isn't a bad thing.

As for the whole advanced stats, forget how they rank Kobe. What's wrong with looking at points per possession? Aren't you trying to score on every possession? You have 24 seconds in a shot clock right? Your goal is to score every time but lets say you shoot early in the shot clock, you keep doing that and so you shoot more shot attempts, and make a lot but you also miss a lot of shot attempts. The other team gets the same amount of shot attempts but makes more, who will win? You score a lot but so does the other team. This is why the concept of pace is important.

FYI, coaches have been using the concept of pace for decades. The great Dean Smith used to use pace adjusted stats back in the 70s, way before you were born (thats sort of obvious to me). This concept is a decades old concept that is entrenched in basketball history but something you refuse to learn because you think it says one of your players isn't top 10 all-time? That seems kind of childish to me and more indicative of someone who isn't a true basketball fan. Basketball fans want to soak up knowledge and learn all they can about the game, not remain ignorant to different players, eras, concepts, stats etc.

^ Legendary Post.

Hellcrooner
07-23-2011, 03:02 AM
Here's your problem: You think if people say Kobe isn't a top 10 player all-time, they're trashing Kobe. That is not the case AT ALL. Do you realize how good you have to be to be a top 10 player ALL-TIME? There's thousands and thousands of players that have played in the NBA and to be top 10 means you're better than a crap load of players.

NO ONE has said Kobe isn't a great player. You've made that up on your own because you are a Kobe fanboy who gets insulted whenever someone doesn't believe he's the GOAT or top 10 or whatever. He has to be great because he's your favorite player and you worship him. Nothing wrong with that but not everybody feels that way.

If you want to talk basketball knowledge, I guarantee you Hawkeye knows more then you, that other guy and a whole lot of other posters on this site.

I'll even be willing to administer a little trivia quiz and I guarantee you he beats a majority of posters on this site. Just because he uses (or anyone else) advanced stats, it doesn't mean that you don't watch the games.

Basketball enthusiasts should be encouraged to LEARN MORE ABOUT THE GAME. That includes all aspects from statistics, to basketball history, to watching as many games as possible.

Let me ask you something, how many games outside of the Lakers have you watched in your lifetime? Have you ever seen Hakeem play? Have you ever seen Duncan play? Have you ever seen Kareem play? How about Moses Malone? Or Bird? Or Magic?

I'm a big numbers guy but you want to know what I'm doing? I'm watching as many historical basketball games I can find so that I can try to better evaluate guys like Moses Malone, Kareem, etc. I want to be able to use numbers AND use the tape. The more INFORMATION, the better. You're missing that. And the big problem with ignoring numbers is that you can't see EVERY play of a players career. Can you honestly tell me you've watched every play that Kobe has been involved with? And can you honestly tell me that every play you've watched of Kobe's isn't seen with biased eyes? When Kobe misses a shot, do you even realize it? Or do you ignore it and pretend it didn't happen because he's your favorite player? Stuff like that happens when all you do is try to watch your favorite player from your own eyes. Sometimes a little stat check isn't a bad thing.

As for the whole advanced stats, forget how they rank Kobe. What's wrong with looking at points per possession? Aren't you trying to score on every possession? You have 24 seconds in a shot clock right? Your goal is to score every time but lets say you shoot early in the shot clock, you keep doing that and so you shoot more shot attempts, and make a lot but you also miss a lot of shot attempts. The other team gets the same amount of shot attempts but makes more, who will win? You score a lot but so does the other team. This is why the concept of pace is important.

FYI, coaches have been using the concept of pace for decades. The great Dean Smith used to use pace adjusted stats back in the 70s, way before you were born (thats sort of obvious to me). This concept is a decades old concept that is entrenched in basketball history but something you refuse to learn because you think it says one of your players isn't top 10 all-time? That seems kind of childish to me and more indicative of someone who isn't a true basketball fan. Basketball fans want to soak up knowledge and learn all they can about the game, not remain ignorant to different players, eras, concepts, stats etc.
that would be interesting, maybe after results people would stop insulting me.

Swashcuff
07-23-2011, 08:58 AM
that would be interesting, maybe after results people would stop insulting me.

Crooner no one insults you because of your knowledge or lack of on this website. IMO you are one of the best minds on here and one of the few who really have a great appreciation for the history of the game, I have no problem in saying that you are more knowledgeable of the history of the game than I am.

However the reason you get insulted is because you let your bias and dislike cloud your judgement and you say stuff like Dirk is only a top 50 player and MJ is overrated because of all sorts of baseless reasons, then create a thread essentially insulting to all individuals with dwarfism.

People don't insult you because of your knowledge you'd beat most posters here in such a quiz, why you get insulted however is because of your ignorance.

Swashcuff
07-23-2011, 09:17 AM
As I told Hawkeye15 nickydemz would not respond to any of his posts. He has no solid reasoning behind any of his posts other that pure hate and an uninformed, ignorant opinion. The man is incompetent of engaging in a debate of any form without bringing up the name LeBron James obviously if it doesn't relate to LeBron he isn't going to respond.

patsSOXknicks just made a great post. He'll ignore that as well. He isn't a true fan of the game, not because he doesn't embrace the advancements in technology but because of the facts that he chastises anyone who does.

He does not appreciate the game of basketball he's just a kid who comes here to insult those who do.

Know what's sad, we don't even use advanced stats as our end all, what we do use however is logic, rationale and don't allow our judgement to get clouded by hatred. Why? Because we love the game of basketball.

One last thing. Denver, Houston, Cleveland, OKC, Boston, Portland, Dallas, Washington, LAL, Indiana, Miami, Milwaukee, Memphis, New Jersey, Orlando, Phoenix, San Antonio and Toronto. Do you know what all these teams have in common? They all used advanced statistics.

That is 18 of the 30 NBA teams. All using advanced stats. Including all the title winners since the last Bulls championship other than the Pistons. So keep calling people who embrace nerds, we'll just keep proving you to be the fraud that we all know you are.

http://www.nbastuffer.com/component/option,com_glossary/Itemid,90/catid,44/func,view/term,NBA%20Teams%20That%20Have%20Analytics%20Depar tment/

I know however he's going to laugh and ridicule this post because to him whoever is using the stats don't mean anything to him. They are still for nerds. Smh.

Hawkeye15
07-23-2011, 09:53 AM
so what? there used to be a 9 year old who graduated my old hs and went to harvard after that, he was better at school than me..just because your older or done something longer doesnt mean your better or more knowledgable.

I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to a comment that people here need to watch more basketball. That was his rebuttal. So I responded the way I did.

No need to defend a fellow Laker fan who refuses to use substance in his debates.

Hawkeye15
07-23-2011, 09:54 AM
hawkeye advanced stats dont show kobe as top 10 all time right?
so do you think hes top 10 all time? Dont lie to yourself either please.

A case can be made anywhere from 8-12. I have him at #9-10.

And why would I lie? I am one of the more fair people here when ranking players, even if I don't like them.

PLAYERS FAN
07-23-2011, 10:38 AM
If you compare:

In the regular season for PER:
Dirk's is 23.73 #15 while Bird's is 23.50 #19

In the playoffs for PER
Dirk is at 24.75 #7 while Bird is a at 21.41 #27

7. Dirk Nowitzki 24.75
27. Larry Bird* 21.41




In the season for WS/PER 48
Dirk is #12 while Bird is #19

12. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2137
19. Larry Bird* 0.2032


In the playoffs Dirk is #5 in WS/PER 48 while Bird is #35

5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2067
35. Larry Bird* 0.1731

I'm sensing somebody thinking Larry Bird is overrated? :whistle:

nickdymez
07-23-2011, 11:15 AM
I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to a comment that people here need to watch more basketball. That was his rebuttal. So I responded the way I did.

No need to defend a fellow Laker fan who refuses to use substance in his debates.

please get over that man.. Im not saying this because im a lakers fan.. Im no Spurs fan and i think Tim Duncan is the greatest power forward ever. Im no bulls fan and i was a big Jordan fan. I hate the Heat and im a Wade fan... So stop that dumb *** kobe ****..

Hawkeye15
07-23-2011, 11:22 AM
please get over that man.. Im not saying this because im a lakers fan.. Im no Spurs fan and i think Tim Duncan is the greatest power forward ever. Im no bulls fan and i was a big Jordan fan. I hate the Heat and im a Wade fan... So stop that dumb *** kobe ****..

Unlike many here, I honestly don't care why you are saying what you say. Its the substance that gets to me. You brush off anyone who doesn't agree with you by giving responses that have zero to do with the debate. I have yet to see you make a rational debate concerning player evaluations.

I think you need to follow your last sentence much more than anyone else in this thread

Green_Monster
07-23-2011, 11:26 AM
Just curious who you think is better other than possibly Jerry West

Most of the time when I see people say Wade is overrated, it comes with a transparent agenda of hate. Once I asked a poster this same question and his agenda was so clear that he was even claiming Joe Dumars was better than Wade.

I think Ray Allen is better, but Wade could pass him because he is younger. I think Ray Allen is UNDERATED

SteBO
07-23-2011, 11:29 AM
please get over that man.. Im not saying this because im a lakers fan.. Im no Spurs fan and i think Tim Duncan is the greatest power forward ever. Im no bulls fan and i was a big Jordan fan. I hate the Heat and im a Wade fan... So stop that dumb *** kobe ****..
You value "rings" more than you do anything else which factors into winning. That's all fine and dandy, but advanced stats give you a better and a much broader view when evaluating players. I know as a Kobe/Laker fan, you've seen the success the Lakers have had, but you can't let that blind you. Rings and winning are a result of TEAM success. You're giving Bryant too much credit, and when people give you valid reasons as to why Kobe's prime, etc... is overrated, you respond with "KOBE = 5 rings; LEBRON = none". That's no way to have a rational debate with people, for there are many factors that you have to factor in.

nickdymez
07-23-2011, 12:06 PM
You value "rings" more than you do anything else which factors into winning. That's all fine and dandy, but advanced stats give you a better and a much broader view when evaluating players. I know as a Kobe/Laker fan, you've seen the success the Lakers have had, but you can't let that blind you. Rings and winning are a result of TEAM success. You're giving Bryant too much credit, and when people give you valid reasons as to why Kobe's prime, etc... is overrated, you respond with "KOBE = 5 rings; LEBRON = none". That's no way to have a rational debate with people, for there are many factors that you have to factor in.

Because those lakers Teams werent that jaw dropping. They did what they had to do, but Kobe and Shaq was what put them where they needed... If you dont understand that then so be it. The lakers front office back then looked up advanced stats and knew who make the best Team.. And ive come to realize that everyone who says that Teams are what wins championships and discredits the greatness of players individual performances always tend to root for a player who cant get it done.

nickdymez
07-23-2011, 12:14 PM
And if you think that the Heat won the 06 finals because of a Team effort, then your disillusion... People like you guys take away whats fun about the sport. Advanced Stats... It was amazing watching D-wade do what he did in those finals. Team my ***..

gwrighter
07-23-2011, 12:38 PM
And if you think that the Heat won the 06 finals because of a Team effort, then your disillusion... People like you guys take away whats fun about the sport. Advanced Stats... It was amazing watching D-wade do what he did in those finals. Team my ***..

If you think that individual performances are what's fun about the NBA then that is your opinion but to say that teams don't win championships is straight ludicrous.

Defence wins championships. Any knowledgeable fan/player/coach will tell you that. The Mavs shut down the Heat because of great team defence. If it wasn't for Robert Horry in 2002 the Lakers would have been down 3-1 to the Kings & would have certainly lost the series. Individual performances are only the tip of the ice berg. All of the individual performances in sum create a team.

koLohe2133
07-23-2011, 12:46 PM
Anyone that says iverson is overrated is an idiot.

I have met and stood next to him. I'm 6' and was 2-3 inches taller than him.

Dude was 5'10" AT THE MOST. played the game with as much heart as anyone....pound for pound best player ever. Yea he took a lot of shots, LOOK AT THAT TEAM! WHO WAS THE #2 OPTION? Eric ******* snow? Get outta here!!!!

He never had HALF THE HELP KOBE, DWADE, LEBRON, MJ, MAGIC, BIRD HAD.

Get over his attitude. Seriously....

koLohe2133
07-23-2011, 12:59 PM
Kobe dropped 81 in a game.

2nd all time. How the **** is he overrated? And I HATE KOBE!!!!

I'll tell you who is overrated: Lebron. Crowned king James? The only king without a ring.

Ever since he came into the league all you fanboys been on his jock. Kuz why? Kuz hes athletic? Homie has ZERO POST MOVES.

"oh he's the quickest to x amount of points"

So what? He can score, ok. Jordan went to college for 3 years. Kobe came in when it wasn't the norm for an 18 year old to start right away and be the #1 option.

Lebron is like the hot chick everyone tries at...then everyone realizes she has no personality, is a stuckup *****, and ***** like a dead, cold fish.

smith&wesson
07-23-2011, 01:10 PM
Steve Nash is the first to come to for me. He's a very good players but there are alot of people who say he's a top 5 or even top 3 point guard which is ridiculous

care to back that statement up ? just because you dont think he is that good .. it doesnt make him overated. your talking about a two time, back to back mvp and one of the best passers of all time.

smith&wesson
07-23-2011, 01:23 PM
i think lebron is over rated over all. not in terms of the player he is. he is a phenom of a player and im not taking that away from him. but how we precieve him. I think we over rate him. im not a lebron hater, I respect the mans game. he is def one of the best players in the league.

that being said, I think lebron was given the lable "king" right out of high school before he even bounced a basket ball on an nba court. yes his numbers speak for themselves and his superstar status can not be questioned. BUT it took kobe 5 rings before he could even be mentioned in the same breath as mj, bird, magic etc. iverson had just as many achievments if not more in terms of mvps, all star apearances, stats and acalaides and yet lebron seems to be ranked higher then him already in terms of all time greats. it just makes no sence to me. when he finally wins his championships then the praise is justified i just dont get how with great stats and great hype lebron surpasses soo many players that have done the same thing basically and never won a ship. charles barkley comes to mind, john stockton, karl malone, and the list goes on. these are all players who had great careers but never reached the promice land. as far as im concerned untill lebron wins a ship he can basically be compared to these players.

Hawkeye15
07-23-2011, 01:52 PM
Because those lakers Teams werent that jaw dropping. They did what they had to do, but Kobe and Shaq was what put them where they needed... If you dont understand that then so be it. The lakers front office back then looked up advanced stats and knew who make the best Team.. And ive come to realize that everyone who says that Teams are what wins championships and discredits the greatness of players individual performances always tend to root for a player who cant get it done.

Who the hell is discrediting Kobe or Shaq? Fact is, Kobe has had the most roster support, along with Duncan, for 15 years. Nobody else is close.

You still ignored the fact that despite Kobe having a horrendous first finals, his TEAM was strong enough that they still won a ring. Kobe's game 7 against Boston 2 years ago, his TEAM was good enough to keep within striking distance of the Celtics depsite Kobe shooting them out of the game, so that when Kobe finally hit a few shots, the Lakers are in the lead.

The point many have tried to make, which you keep overlooking, is that sure, advanced stats weren't around 30 years ago. Scouting is still the top way to evaluate, IF you are worthy of being a scout. Advanced statistics are simply another tool in the tool kit. The longer you refuse to grasp them, the longer many will brush aside your opinions as you do theirs. But at least theirs have numbers, evidence, and logic.

Hawkeye15
07-23-2011, 01:53 PM
Anyone that says iverson is overrated is an idiot.

I have met and stood next to him. I'm 6' and was 2-3 inches taller than him.

Dude was 5'10" AT THE MOST. played the game with as much heart as anyone....pound for pound best player ever. Yea he took a lot of shots, LOOK AT THAT TEAM! WHO WAS THE #2 OPTION? Eric ******* snow? Get outta here!!!!

He never had HALF THE HELP KOBE, DWADE, LEBRON, MJ, MAGIC, BIRD HAD.

Get over his attitude. Seriously....

his roster support was much better than you are giving it credit for. 20 ppg scorers aren't the only good players out there. ELITE defensive teams can go a long way.

It wasn't his attitude. It was that he was a chucker who played zip defense.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-23-2011, 02:17 PM
Who the hell is discrediting Kobe or Shaq? Fact is, Kobe has had the most roster support, along with Duncan, for 15 years. Nobody else is close.

You still ignored the fact that despite Kobe having a horrendous first finals, his TEAM was strong enough that they still won a ring. Kobe's game 7 against Boston 2 years ago, his TEAM was good enough to keep within striking distance of the Celtics depsite Kobe shooting them out of the game, so that when Kobe finally hit a few shots, the Lakers are in the lead.

The point many have tried to make, which you keep overlooking, is that sure, advanced stats weren't around 30 years ago. Scouting is still the top way to evaluate, IF you are worthy of being a scout. Advanced statistics are simply another tool in the tool kit. The longer you refuse to grasp them, the longer many will brush aside your opinions as you do theirs. But at least theirs have numbers, evidence, and logic.

The concepts of which they are founded were though. I've heard that Dean Smith used to use pace adjusted stats (like points per possession) back in the 70s when he was coaching UNC.

Hustlenomics
07-23-2011, 02:38 PM
his roster support was much better than you are giving it credit for. 20 ppg scorers aren't the only good players out there. ELITE defensive teams can go a long way.

It wasn't his attitude. It was that he was a chucker who played zip defense.

says the kevin love fan :laugh2:

Catfish1314
07-23-2011, 02:50 PM
says the kevin love fan :laugh2:

To be fair, Love can still become a good defender. Iverson was never a good defender.

WadeKobe
07-23-2011, 03:00 PM
And if you think that the Heat won the 06 finals because of a Team effort, then your disillusion... People like you guys take away whats fun about the sport. Advanced Stats... It was amazing watching D-wade do what he did in those finals. Team my ***..

This just shows that you don't understand basketball, bro. Without Shaq, Wade would have never had the ability to drive to the basket the way he did the whole series. Without Gary Payton hitting a clutch shot at the end of game 3, the series is over. Without Haslem breaking up a pass to Dirk and taking it to the house right before that, the series is over. Without Alonzo Mourning going out of his mind and blocking everything that got near the rim for 4 straight games, they lose.

It was very, very clearly a team win.

Hawkeye15
07-23-2011, 03:00 PM
says the kevin love fan :laugh2:

what does that have to do with anything? Last time I checked, Love wasn't talked about as an all time great.

claffyT
07-23-2011, 03:00 PM
To be fair, Love can still become a good defender. Iverson was never a good defender.

true say but i wouldn't say that. iverson fans like swashcuff will come here and say ai was a good defender because he lead the league in stls 3 times, and lead the sixers to the finals...*waits for swash to pop up*

Hawkeye15
07-23-2011, 03:03 PM
The concepts of which they are founded were though. I've heard that Dean Smith used to use pace adjusted stats (like points per possession) back in the 70s when he was coaching UNC.

yep, the basics of them were there, but they weren't used together often, and they were using the most simple of equations basically.

But you get my point. Many are just slow to go with new information that is offered to them. Especially when that new information shows them that their idol may not be as good as they thought he was...

Hawkeye15
07-23-2011, 03:06 PM
true say but i wouldn't say that. iverson fans like swashcuff will come here and say ai was a good defender because he lead the league in stls 3 times, and lead the sixers to the finals...*waits for swash to pop up*

well, even the more intelligent posters here have a weakspot, or a player they just get way protective of. Swash has fully admitted that Iverson is the one guy he is irrational about.

Catfish1314
07-23-2011, 03:07 PM
true say but i wouldn't say that. iverson fans like swashcuff will come here and say ai was a good defender because he lead the league in stls 3 times, and lead the sixers to the finals...*waits for swash to pop up*

Well he wasn't a complete liability until the back end of his career. But he was still never a very good defender, which wasn't all his fault since he was like 5'11 and 165 pounds.

Swashcuff
07-23-2011, 03:31 PM
true say but i wouldn't say that. iverson fans like swashcuff will come here and say ai was a good defender because he lead the league in stls 3 times, and lead the sixers to the finals...*waits for swash to pop up*


well, even the more intelligent posters here have a weakspot, or a player they just get way protective of. Swash has fully admitted that Iverson is the one guy he is irrational about.

:laugh2:

There is a reason why I haven't chimed in on this until now. I too think he may be a bit overrated in some areas and in others quite underrated. :hide:

My reason for saying he's overrated in some ways is partly to do with the fact that in his last season in the league where was a shell of his former self he still made the ASG as a starter. I admittedly also voted for him as a starter. Many thought he was deserving of it I didn't I voted purely out of favoritism. Overall I don't think he's overrated especially now with so many fans having an understanding of the advanced stats especially those that value offensive efficiency which really wasn't A.I.'s forte. I still maintain however that while he was not the best player in the league in 00-01 he was the most deserving of his MVP award.

Allen Iverson was never a good defender. I would say however he did play defense. His tenacity in the passing lanes and his quick hands always hand opposing teams and coaches weary of him at all times on the defensive end. His man knew that 9 times out of 10 he could A.I. one on one but he also knew that at the slightest slip A.I. would take the ball away and turn into a one man fast break.

I always say up until 04-05 Larry Hughes was never really know for his D. That season he lead the league in spg and BAM he was on the All Defensive First Team. I don't value steals to highly because those gambles could really cost you A.I. however knew that with the unit behind him (at least from say 00-02) he could have taken more calculated risks and feel good enough that guys like Snow, McKie, Lynch, Mutumbo and Ratliff could pick up some of his slack.

Again I say that IMO A.I. played defense he just was not a good defender. To say he didn't play D really doesn't do him justice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQyK6RjcemA

Not one to post youtube vids to state a player's worth but that video right there the many examples of how exactly Allen Iverson was dangerous on the defensive end of the floor. Especially the first vid where he won the game on an stolen in bounds pass.

IMO to say he didn't play defense may be a bit ignorant and underrating. To say he was a bad defender is true and can be backed with good reasoning.

He's in my top 50 somewhere around 30-45 not really sure yet but I know IMO he's top 50 for sure.

Bos_Sports4Life
07-23-2011, 03:32 PM
why are people putting kareem, russell, mj ect in the most overrated list?? These 3 men all have 5+ League mvp's/6+ nba titles....These guys are prob the top 3 of all time...

tredigs
07-23-2011, 03:39 PM
:laugh2:

There is a reason why I haven't chimed in on this until now. I too think he may be a bit overrated in some areas and in others quite underrated. :hide:

My reason for saying he's overrated in some ways is partly to do with the fact that in his last season in the league where was a shell of his former self he still made the ASG as a starter. I admittedly also voted for him as a starter. Overall I don't think he's overrated especially now with so many fans having an understanding of the advanced stats especially those that value offensive efficiency which really wasn't A.I.'s forte. I still maintain however that while he was not the best player in the league in 00-01 he was the most deserving of his MVP award.

Allen Iverson was never a good defender. I would say however he did play defense. His tenacity in the passing lanes and his quick hands always hand opposing teams and coaches weary of him at all times on the defensive end. His man knew that 9 times out of 10 he could A.I. one on one but he also knew that at the slightest slip A.I. would take the ball away and turn into a one man fast break.

I always say up until 04-05 Larry Hughes was never really know for his D. That season he lead the league in spg and BAM he was on the All Defensive First Team. I don't value steals to highly because those gambles could really cost you A.I. however knew that with the unit behind him (at least from say 00-02) he could have taken more calculated risks and feel good enough that guys like Snow, McKie, Lynch, Mutumbo and Ratliff could pick up some of his slack.

Again I say that IMO A.I. played defense he just was not a good defender. To say he didn't play D really doesn't do him justice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQyK6RjcemA

Not one to post youtube vids to state a player's worth but that video right there the many examples of how exactly Allen Iverson was dangerous on the defensive end of the floor. Especially the first vid where he won the game on an stolen in bounds pass.

IMO to say he didn't play defense may be a bit ignorant and underrating. To say he was a bad defender is true and can be backed with good reasoning.

Valid.

Hawkeye15
07-23-2011, 03:58 PM
:laugh2:

There is a reason why I haven't chimed in on this until now. I too think he may be a bit overrated in some areas and in others quite underrated. :hide:

My reason for saying he's overrated in some ways is partly to do with the fact that in his last season in the league where was a shell of his former self he still made the ASG as a starter. I admittedly also voted for him as a starter. Many thought he was deserving of it I didn't I voted purely out of favoritism. Overall I don't think he's overrated especially now with so many fans having an understanding of the advanced stats especially those that value offensive efficiency which really wasn't A.I.'s forte. I still maintain however that while he was not the best player in the league in 00-01 he was the most deserving of his MVP award.

Allen Iverson was never a good defender. I would say however he did play defense. His tenacity in the passing lanes and his quick hands always hand opposing teams and coaches weary of him at all times on the defensive end. His man knew that 9 times out of 10 he could A.I. one on one but he also knew that at the slightest slip A.I. would take the ball away and turn into a one man fast break.

I always say up until 04-05 Larry Hughes was never really know for his D. That season he lead the league in spg and BAM he was on the All Defensive First Team. I don't value steals to highly because those gambles could really cost you A.I. however knew that with the unit behind him (at least from say 00-02) he could have taken more calculated risks and feel good enough that guys like Snow, McKie, Lynch, Mutumbo and Ratliff could pick up some of his slack.

Again I say that IMO A.I. played defense he just was not a good defender. To say he didn't play D really doesn't do him justice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQyK6RjcemA

Not one to post youtube vids to state a player's worth but that video right there the many examples of how exactly Allen Iverson was dangerous on the defensive end of the floor. Especially the first vid where he won the game on an stolen in bounds pass.

IMO to say he didn't play defense may be a bit ignorant and underrating. To say he was a bad defender is true and can be backed with good reasoning.

He's in my top 50 somewhere around 30-45 not really sure yet but I know IMO he's top 50 for sure.


I can agree he is in the 40 or so range. I come off as a bit hard on him, but its because there are so many here uncapable of measuring players, they just use ppg, and the fact that Iverson was flashy to say he was one of the elite players ever, which just isn't the case.

Honestly, he could have been better, but he refused to put in much offseason work or to put on muscle. So when his elite athleticism dropped to very good, he was toast.

Hellcrooner
07-23-2011, 04:06 PM
mmm id have to really think bout iverson being or not being top 50.... but im leaning towards NO.
I mean, would i really take someone out of the official 1996 list of 60 greatest to make room for Iverson? considering that there are other players that would need to be acomodated before him liek Duncan, Kg or Kobe.....

nickdymez
07-23-2011, 04:15 PM
This just shows that you don't understand basketball, bro. Without Shaq, Wade would have never had the ability to drive to the basket the way he did the whole series. Without Gary Payton hitting a clutch shot at the end of game 3, the series is over. Without Haslem breaking up a pass to Dirk and taking it to the house right before that, the series is over. Without Alonzo Mourning going out of his mind and blocking everything that got near the rim for 4 straight games, they lose.

It was very, very clearly a team win.

lmao... All thats in hindsight "bro".. Bottom line, you people here have never played sports. You dont know how to factor will to win and heart into your advanced stats equations.. Until you do, you are all robots to me.. Thats why you people say Lebron is the greatest. The greatest wins.. You dont understand that because there is no advance stat telling you...

And you a moron if you think im saying that people win games 1 on 5....

MTar786
07-23-2011, 04:32 PM
all of the players from the 60's and early 70's excluding kareem

ManRam
07-23-2011, 04:46 PM
Players who get blessed with being on great teams/franchises and thus win more than players who are better than them...and then are thus ranked higher than them in everyone's career rankings. That's really the easiest way for someone to be overrated. Winning matters, but winning isn't everything. You don't become a better player than someone else who is better than you just because you get a ring or two more...

PatsSoxKnicks
07-23-2011, 04:49 PM
lmao... All thats in hindsight "bro".. Bottom line, you people here have never played sports. You dont know how to factor will to win and heart into your advanced stats equations.. Until you do, you are all robots to me.. Thats why you people say Lebron is the greatest. The greatest wins.. You dont understand that because there is no advance stat telling you...

And you a moron if you think im saying that people win games 1 on 5....

Robert Horry>Kobe.

You said the greatest wins right? Well Horry has won more then Kobe, so that must mean he's better.

PS- I have no clue why I'm continuing to respond to you. You've already proven with your lack of responses to some of my posts that you don't really watch basketball. You just watch Kobe and the Lakers. Thats it. Good for you but don't claim to know more then others who actually watch teams other then the Lakers.

kgjfan243
07-23-2011, 04:52 PM
I think Michael Jordan has become a bit overrated. Don't get me wrong, he's one of the greatest ever, but most people I talk to think he is by far the greatest ever which I think is wrong and is disrespecting what other players have done because without Magic and Larry, there is no MJ. Different argument for a different day so back to overrated players.
Others I think are overrated: Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson, Patrick Ewing, Derrick Rose (on PSD)

MTar786
07-23-2011, 04:55 PM
Robert Horry>Kobe.
You said the greatest wins right? Well Horry has won more then Kobe, so that must mean he's better.

PS- I have no clue why I'm continuing to respond to you. You've already proven with your lack of responses to some of my posts that you don't really watch basketball. You just watch Kobe and the Lakers. Thats it. Good for you but don't claim to know more then others who actually watch teams other then the Lakers.

im gonna go out on a limb here and say horry played with 4 of the GREATEST (top 10 all time) hence the 7 rings

2 with dream
3 with shaq and kobe
2 with duncan

so either you are poorly mocking him or you are brainless.

also, horry deserves those rings because he is a proven winner and one of the best role players ever

MTar786
07-23-2011, 05:05 PM
I think Michael Jordan has become a bit overrated. Don't get me wrong, he's one of the greatest ever, but most people I talk to think he is by far the greatest ever which I think is wrong and is disrespecting what other players have done because without Magic and Larry, there is no MJ. Different argument for a different day so back to overrated players.
Others I think are overrated: Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson, Patrick Ewing, Derrick Rose (on PSD)

i know what you're trying to say.
No doubt jordan is the GOAT. but imo he was BARELY better than Kareem was (who is 2nd all time imo)

people make it seem like jordan could be the best rebounder all time if he wanted. Or is the best defensive player ever lol. people even make it seem like jordan would flip a switch and win no matter what.
i always hear 'Jordan would never have let that happen' or 'Jordan would have made that game winner' like he is a cheat code or something. People have lit jordans teams up. They have beaten his teams (just not close to as much as everyone else has lost) He has missed game winners/buzzer beaters. Even in the finals.

With all that said, he is still the GOAT.. but guys, try to be a little more realistic. Understand that if MJ was in his prime and playing today. switch mj for lebron on that cleveland roster of 07 and they still lose to the spurs. put mj on the 09 or 10 cavs and they still lose too. MJ < God

just for fun >>> switch lebron for mj on the 11 heat and the heat beat dallas in 5 :)

Tony_Starks
07-23-2011, 05:36 PM
Steve Nash. Michael Jordan. Carlos Boozer. Carmello Anthony. Chris Bosh.....

nickdymez
07-23-2011, 06:39 PM
Robert Horry>Kobe.

You said the greatest wins right? Well Horry has won more then Kobe, so that must mean he's better.

PS- I have no clue why I'm continuing to respond to you. You've already proven with your lack of responses to some of my posts that you don't really watch basketball. You just watch Kobe and the Lakers. Thats it. Good for you but don't claim to know more then others who actually watch teams other then the Lakers.

I stopped reading after this stupid ****..

Hawkeye15
07-23-2011, 06:48 PM
lmao... All thats in hindsight "bro".. Bottom line, you people here have never played sports. You dont know how to factor will to win and heart into your advanced stats equations.. Until you do, you are all robots to me.. Thats why you people say Lebron is the greatest. The greatest wins.. You dont understand that because there is no advance stat telling you...

And you a moron if you think im saying that people win games 1 on 5....

really dude? I think you would be very surprised how many here have played sports, and many of us have played past high school in some.

Who says LeBron is the greatest? Quit putting words into people's mouths.

Your last statement is completely contradicting to nearly every post you make regarding Kobe and LeBron.

Iodine
07-23-2011, 06:58 PM
Wilt
James Worthy (I love the dude but still)
Pistol Pete
Karl Malooooooone
Tiny Archibald

WadeKobe
07-23-2011, 09:51 PM
Pete Maravich is the most overrated player ever. He was a horrible ball-hogging chucker who shot miserably.

He shot drastically below the league average, and yet led the league in FGA while his team was below .500.

SteBO
07-23-2011, 09:53 PM
im gonna go out on a limb here and say horry played with 4 of the GREATEST (top 10 all time) hence the 7 rings

2 with dream
3 with shaq and kobe
2 with duncan

so either you are poorly mocking him or you are brainless.

also, horry deserves those rings because he is a proven winner and one of the best role players ever
He isn't mocking him at all. This is all according to his logic, so calling patsSOXknicks brainless isn't necessary nor is it valid in any way shape or form.


I stopped reading after this stupid ****..
According to your logic, patsSOXknicks is right when he ways Horry>Kobe. It just shows that your logic is flawed, but I guess you'll just completely disregard that, huh?

ManRam
07-23-2011, 09:59 PM
I'll name names!

I will use Bill Simmon's rankings as my means of comparison. Gotta have a means of comparison to determine how someone is rated before you decide if they're overrated.

Jerry West: not a top 10 player ever
Isiaha Thomas: never loved his game. He's like 30-35 for me.
Nash: I go back and forth. He should be a top 50 player ever, but not much more than that

His list is so solid. Kobe at 15 is solid. I'd have him at 11-12, but certainly not overrated there. He ranks Pete Maravich fairly in the 60s. A lot of guys think he's way better than that; he's not.

Payton gets overrated, but Bill has him at 40, which is perfect. Worthy and Hayes in the 40s is accurate too. He underrated Robinson (way better than 28). He might overrate Bill Walton. Stockton at 25 is low. Cousy was ahead of his time, but when all is said and done, there have been a ton of guys to do what he did, and do it better. He doesn't make my top 30. So he's overrated IMO. Pippen is generally overrated. Perfect side-kick, for sure, but he's not a top 20 player ever.

Russell is overrated if you rate him top 3. Rick Barry is overrated if he's in your top 25.


IDK. I could keep going.



And, did someone really call patsSOXknicks "brainless"??? :laugh:

DaBear
07-23-2011, 10:01 PM
LeBron James. It's mind boggling that people still make excuses for him not having a ring. Even after he joins Wade and Bosh. Pathetic.

SteBO
07-23-2011, 10:04 PM
LeBron James. It's mind boggling that people still make excuses for him not having a ring. Even after he joins Wade and Bosh. Pathetic.
I can't say many have after these Finals. You should catch the Miami radio stations, and you'd here callers just destroy him on radio. I think he's doing the right thing by just staying in hybernation. I just hope he's working on his game in the process.

ManRam
07-23-2011, 10:06 PM
Rings are a team stat.

LeBron played on terrible teams up until this year. Knock him for not winning this past season...but I know for damn certain no other player in the NBA could win on that Cleveland team in replacement of him throughout his career.

Not to be petty, but he wasn't blessed with starting his career playing alongside the best center in the NBA like a certain #8 who used to rock the mini-fro. He got blessed with Z! Kobe couldn't ever win without Shaq, and LeBron never had a Shaq.

juno10
07-23-2011, 10:21 PM
lebron made it to the finals the first year he got a legit 2 man he choked no doubt but i also recall a certain #24 "dieing" in the moment especially game 4 where he only mustered 17 pts in a embarrassing comeback loss after being up 20+

bagwell368
07-23-2011, 10:38 PM
Here's your problem: You think if people say Kobe isn't a top 10 player all-time, they're trashing Kobe. That is not the case AT ALL. Do you realize how good you have to be to be a top 10 player ALL-TIME? There's thousands and thousands of players that have played in the NBA and to be top 10 means you're better than a crap load of players.

NO ONE has said Kobe isn't a great player. You've made that up on your own because you are a Kobe fanboy who gets insulted whenever someone doesn't believe he's the GOAT or top 10 or whatever. He has to be great because he's your favorite player and you worship him. Nothing wrong with that but not everybody feels that way.

If you want to talk basketball knowledge, I guarantee you Hawkeye knows more then you, that other guy and a whole lot of other posters on this site.

I'll even be willing to administer a little trivia quiz and I guarantee you he beats a majority of posters on this site. Just because he uses (or anyone else) advanced stats, it doesn't mean that you don't watch the games.

Basketball enthusiasts should be encouraged to LEARN MORE ABOUT THE GAME. That includes all aspects from statistics, to basketball history, to watching as many games as possible.

Let me ask you something, how many games outside of the Lakers have you watched in your lifetime? Have you ever seen Hakeem play? Have you ever seen Duncan play? Have you ever seen Kareem play? How about Moses Malone? Or Bird? Or Magic?

I'm a big numbers guy but you want to know what I'm doing? I'm watching as many historical basketball games I can find so that I can try to better evaluate guys like Moses Malone, Kareem, etc. I want to be able to use numbers AND use the tape. The more INFORMATION, the better. You're missing that. And the big problem with ignoring numbers is that you can't see EVERY play of a players career. Can you honestly tell me you've watched every play that Kobe has been involved with? And can you honestly tell me that every play you've watched of Kobe's isn't seen with biased eyes? When Kobe misses a shot, do you even realize it? Or do you ignore it and pretend it didn't happen because he's your favorite player? Stuff like that happens when all you do is try to watch your favorite player from your own eyes. Sometimes a little stat check isn't a bad thing.

As for the whole advanced stats, forget how they rank Kobe. What's wrong with looking at points per possession? Aren't you trying to score on every possession? You have 24 seconds in a shot clock right? Your goal is to score every time but lets say you shoot early in the shot clock, you keep doing that and so you shoot more shot attempts, and make a lot but you also miss a lot of shot attempts. The other team gets the same amount of shot attempts but makes more, who will win? You score a lot but so does the other team. This is why the concept of pace is important.

FYI, coaches have been using the concept of pace for decades. The great Dean Smith used to use pace adjusted stats back in the 70s, way before you were born (thats sort of obvious to me). This concept is a decades old concept that is entrenched in basketball history but something you refuse to learn because you think it says one of your players isn't top 10 all-time? That seems kind of childish to me and more indicative of someone who isn't a true basketball fan. Basketball fans want to soak up knowledge and learn all they can about the game, not remain ignorant to different players, eras, concepts, stats etc.

Great post. I've said the same thing before, but not as well as this. Great job!

bagwell368
07-23-2011, 10:46 PM
Without playing devils advocate you kind of are being a homer. Wade's stats are seriously slightly better than Pistol Pete's. Yes he has won a playoff series in 80. Also, if you want to compare overall basketball careers, Pete's college stats are ridiculously better than Wade's.

All in all, Pete was the star of his team whereas Wade for most of his career had a better player.

I would probably say Wade is better but a comment like no chance in hell is very homeristic. They are extremely close.

Maravich was a joke. He couldn't guard my grandmother and she's been dead for 58 years. He was a volume scorer, he didn't lead his teams anywhere, but he could pass well for a shooter. He didn't work hard at the game IMO, he had a weak body and weak legs. He's in the HOF for his nuts college career. I saw his whole career and he was a bitter dissapointment almost the entire time. He had a couple of peak years that were good - but far from great.

Head to head if you could match them up, Wade would crush Pete like a grape.

So yeah, Maravich was/is very overrated.

Tony_Starks
07-24-2011, 12:42 AM
Michael Jordan post retirement has become the definition of most overrated. Lots of otherwise reasonable fans put him in this holy untouchable undisputed best ever category when that's not the case. A legit case could be made for Bird, Magic, Kareem, (who all beat better competition btw)....

BrokenAnkles
07-24-2011, 12:54 AM
During the playoff run the Mavs were having people were talking up Dirk like he could be a top 15 player all time. That's a ****ing joke.

nickdymez
07-24-2011, 02:25 AM
He isn't mocking him at all. This is all according to his logic, so calling patsSOXknicks brainless isn't necessary nor is it valid in any way shape or form.


According to your logic, patsSOXknicks is right when he ways Horry>Kobe. It just shows that your logic is flawed, but I guess you'll just completely disregard that, huh?

Robert Horry lead his team to finals victories and won finals MVP's? Your a mod?

Chronz
07-24-2011, 02:46 AM
lmao.. Everyone has named the greatest players of all time in this thread...

Well obviously, how can you be overrated if no one thinks highly of you?

PatsSoxKnicks
07-24-2011, 02:48 AM
Robert Horry lead his team to finals victories and won finals MVP's? Your a mod?

It astonishes me you couldn't pick up the sarcasm in my post.

First, why don't you respond to this:
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18626152&postcount=191

Second, you said the greatest wins. Well that's rather elementary don't you think? My point is that without any context, you can make idiotic statements like Horry>Kobe because he has more rings. This is a great example why you can't look at only rings. So you have to take context into account. You seem to be willing to do that with Horry and Kobe but not Kobe and say Duncan, or Kobe and Hakeem. No, when its a comparison where Kobe has more rings then the other person, context flies out the window. But if its a comparison between Kobe and Horry, you're all to willing to include context.