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Mile High Champ
07-21-2011, 11:29 AM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

1) Dirk Nowitzki
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)





2010 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Pau Gasol
2) Dirk Nowitzki
3) Tim Duncan
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Carlos Boozer
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Josh Smith
9) David Lee
10) Zach Randolph

2009 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Dirk Nowitzki
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Pau Gasol
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Antawn Jamison
9) Rashard Lewis
10) David West

2008 Off-Season PF rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Amare Stoudemire
4) Chris Bosh
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Elton Brand
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Pau Gasol
9) Antawn Jamison
10) David West

jp611
07-21-2011, 11:30 AM
I'm not sure who to vote for here, I hope swashcuff can provide me with some good insight here

GhostfaceDrilla
07-21-2011, 11:31 AM
I'm gonna go with Amare on this one. He is an explosive scorer and even though he lacks defense and could be a better rebounder, he is a damn good player. Gasol, Bosh, Boozer are all overrated by the way. This spot should only be for one of Amare, Aldridge, or Duncan.

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 11:33 AM
Ill go Gasol. By the numbers, he was the lakers best player.

Sadds The Gr8
07-21-2011, 11:34 AM
If Amar'e wasn't injured in the playoffs i woulda given it to him because I think he woulda easily passed Gasol. But I can't give it to him because you can argue that him not even playing in the playoffs had the same or less effect than Pau sucking in the playoffs.

Khalifa21
07-21-2011, 11:37 AM
Amar'e

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-21-2011, 11:38 AM
Amare. I think him and Dirk are the two elite PF's.

LTBaByyy
07-21-2011, 11:38 AM
Dirk
Amare
Randolph
Gasol (Still avg 19 and 10 on a top 5 team in NBA)
Griffin
Love
Aldridge
Bosh
Boozer
Garnett/Duncan


Idk if yall feel the same but that is mine. That was soooooo hard!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-21-2011, 11:40 AM
Dirk
Amare
Randolph
Gasol (Still avg 19 and 10 on a top 5 team in NBA)
Griffin
Love
Aldridge
Bosh
Boozer
Garnett/Duncan


Idk if yall feel the same but that is mine. That was soooooo hard!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

Love is better than Griffin, KG is better than Boozer, but besides that the list ain't to bad.

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 11:40 AM
Dirk
Amare
Randolph
Gasol (Still avg 19 and 10 on a top 5 team in NBA)
Griffin
Love
Aldridge
Bosh
Boozer
Garnett/Duncan


Idk if yall feel the same but that is mine. That was soooooo hard!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

If you flip flop Bosh and Aldridge my top ten would literally be a spot on match with yours.:clap:

jp611
07-21-2011, 11:41 AM
Bosh is higher than Griffin and Love, people give him a lot of crap (myself included) but he's still a hell of a player

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-21-2011, 11:42 AM
Amar'e. Dude is a straight beast. Can dominate the paint, can post up, blow past you, stretch the defense to about 17 feet. His help defense is underrated. His man-defense needs some work, as well as his work on the glass.

Da Knicks
07-21-2011, 11:42 AM
Amare, but Gasol is very close imo since he is the best player on a very good team.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-21-2011, 11:42 AM
lol Bosh is not better then BG

Mile High Champ
07-21-2011, 11:42 AM
If we want to go by numbers, it is easily Gasol..

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=stoudam01&y1=2011&p2=aldrila01&y2=2011&p3=boshch01&y3=2011&p4=gasolpa01&y4=2011&p5=randoza01&y5=2011&p6=loveke01&y6=2011

jp611
07-21-2011, 11:43 AM
lol Bosh is not better then BG

Yes, he is... just because BG is on SportsCenter a lot for dunks doesnt make him a better player

PrettyBoyJ
07-21-2011, 11:44 AM
Amare.. He was having an MVP season in the beginning of the season, say what you want about his defense but he's one hell of a player

Hustlenomics
07-21-2011, 11:44 AM
Amare, he was in MVP talks early in the season and has changed the future of the Knicks

stuckyfreshhh
07-21-2011, 11:45 AM
To me it's:

1- Dirk
2- Amare
3- Randolph
4- Gasol
5- Bosh
6- Aldridge
7- Love
8- Griffin
9- Garnett/Duncan
10- Blatche (homer pick)

LongIslandIcedZ
07-21-2011, 11:46 AM
Standing Tall and Talented

Mile High Champ
07-21-2011, 11:46 AM
Rk Player ▴ Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 L.Aldridge 2010-11 25 81 3211 21.5 .549 .501 10.1 17.2 13.5 10.1 1.4 2.4 8.7 25.7 114 107 7.6 3.5 11.1 0.166
2 Chris Bosh 2010-11 26 77 2795 19.4 .569 .499 6.4 20.0 13.6 8.9 1.1 1.4 9.8 23.5 115 103 6.1 4.2 10.3 0.177
3 Pau Gasol 2010-11 30 82 3037 23.3 .589 .530 10.3 20.5 15.6 15.1 0.8 3.3 9.8 21.8 123 103 10.0 4.7 14.7 0.232
4 Kevin Love 2010-11 22 73 2611 24.3 .593 .513 13.7 34.2 23.6 11.8 0.9 0.8 11.1 22.9 123 108 9.0 2.5 11.4 0.210
5 Zach Randolph 2010-11 29 75 2724 22.6 .552 .507 14.2 26.0 20.1 10.2 1.2 0.7 10.0 25.0 115 105 6.8 3.7 10.5 0.185
6 A.Stoudemire 2010-11 28 78 2870 22.7 .565 .505 7.8 17.6 12.7 13.2 1.2 3.8 12.5 30.9 109 108 5.4 2.6 8.0 0.134

The stats would suggest that Amare has no business being anywhere near the top 5. He really had a down year last season.

naps
07-21-2011, 11:47 AM
Bosh. Best PF in the playoffs not named Dirk. He put up brilliant numbers with good efficiency as a 3rd option. And his defense was impressive as well.

knicksfan42
07-21-2011, 11:48 AM
Rk Player ▴ Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 L.Aldridge 2010-11 25 81 3211 21.5 .549 .501 10.1 17.2 13.5 10.1 1.4 2.4 8.7 25.7 114 107 7.6 3.5 11.1 0.166
2 Chris Bosh 2010-11 26 77 2795 19.4 .569 .499 6.4 20.0 13.6 8.9 1.1 1.4 9.8 23.5 115 103 6.1 4.2 10.3 0.177
3 Pau Gasol 2010-11 30 82 3037 23.3 .589 .530 10.3 20.5 15.6 15.1 0.8 3.3 9.8 21.8 123 103 10.0 4.7 14.7 0.232
4 Kevin Love 2010-11 22 73 2611 24.3 .593 .513 13.7 34.2 23.6 11.8 0.9 0.8 11.1 22.9 123 108 9.0 2.5 11.4 0.210
5 Zach Randolph 2010-11 29 75 2724 22.6 .552 .507 14.2 26.0 20.1 10.2 1.2 0.7 10.0 25.0 115 105 6.8 3.7 10.5 0.185
6 A.Stoudemire 2010-11 28 78 2870 22.7 .565 .505 7.8 17.6 12.7 13.2 1.2 3.8 12.5 30.9 109 108 5.4 2.6 8.0 0.134

The stats would suggest that Amare has no business being anywhere near the top 5. He really had a down year last season.

:nod:

ManRam
07-21-2011, 11:49 AM
I totally understand a vote for Amare, but I'm taking the better two way player...

The guys second in the league in win shares, and third in WS/48. The guy with a higher PER than Amare. The more efficient scorer. The guy who is a better rebounder, passer, shot blocker, and most certainly the better defender.

Pau Gasol.


Amare thrived in a fast-tempo, low efficiency offense. I think many of the top 6-7 PFs could replicate his numbers and success, easily :shrug:

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 11:51 AM
Unless another player has an unbelieveable run of votes, this looks very much to be a two horse race.

Mile High Champ
07-21-2011, 11:53 AM
I totally understand a vote for Amare, but I'm taking the better two way player...

The guys second in the league in win shares, and third in WS/48. The guy with a higher PER than Amare. The more efficient scorer. The guy who is a better rebounder, passer, shot blocker, and most certainly the better defender.

Pau Gasol.


Amare thrived in a fast-tempo, low efficiency offense. I think many of the top 6-7 PFs could replicate his numbers and success, easily :shrug:

This was my exact logic as well. I don't think there is an argument for any other player at this point. As you said, I understand the Amare vote but he really does no belong in the conversation. He is all flash with very little substance.

jimbobjarree
07-21-2011, 11:55 AM
paul millsap

Mile High Champ
07-21-2011, 11:55 AM
Paul has Amare beat in every advanced statistic but STL% & BLK%. How in the heck is he beating Pau right now?

Swashcuff
07-21-2011, 11:56 AM
I'm not sure who to vote for here, I hope swashcuff can provide me with some good insight here

I'm currently on the road away from my PC but as soon I get the opportunity I'll try to post a breakdown. I would be inclined to go with Pau here based on regular season production but his playoff play really didn't do much to help his cause.

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 11:57 AM
Paul has Amare beat in every advanced statistic but STL% & BLK%. How in the heck is he beating Pau right now?

Because he is a more dominant force. Because he carried the Knicks back to relevancy by himself. Because he doesn't have Kobe on his team to take huge pressure off him, although he has Melo now he was without Melo for two thirds of the year. etc. etc. etc. I'm not knocking Pau at all, but for me it's a no brainer Amare over Pau any day of teh week.

jp611
07-21-2011, 11:57 AM
Because Amare makes SC Top Ten more

Mile High Champ
07-21-2011, 12:03 PM
Because he is a more dominant force. Because he carried the Knicks back to relevancy by himself. Because he doesn't have Kobe on his team to take huge pressure off him, although he has Melo now he was without Melo for two thirds of the year. etc. etc. etc. I'm not knocking Pau at all, but for me it's a no brainer Amare over Pau any day of teh week.

I don't really see any of those points as an argument. Pau statistically destroyed Amare last year, the argument is not even close. Not to mention Amare is one of the worst defensive PF in the league. How is he top 2 with all that working against him?

naps
07-21-2011, 12:04 PM
I don't really see any of those points as an argument. Pau statistically destroyed Amare last year, the argument is not even close. Not to mention Amare is one of the worst defensive PF in the league. How is he top 2 with all that working against him?


Damn, Amare is being so overrated after joining the knicks. And where HellCrooner now?

LongIslandIcedZ
07-21-2011, 12:05 PM
I don't really see any of those points as an argument. Pau statistically destroyed Amare last year, the argument is not even close. Not to mention Amare is one of the worst defensive PF in the league. How is he top 2 with all that working against him?

Swag

Hustlenomics
07-21-2011, 12:05 PM
Paul has Amare beat in every advanced statistic but STL% & BLK%. How in the heck is he beating Pau right now?

lol and Gasol stunk it up against the Mavs while Amare murders the man in front of him

NYMetros
07-21-2011, 12:05 PM
Easily Gasol. Shouldn't be a debate. Amare doesn't play defense and Gasol is way more efficient offensively.

heyman321
07-21-2011, 12:06 PM
Gasol easily and I hate every single Laker.

unleashthebeast
07-21-2011, 12:07 PM
If we want to go by numbers, it is easily Gasol..

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=stoudam01&y1=2011&p2=aldrila01&y2=2011&p3=boshch01&y3=2011&p4=gasolpa01&y4=2011&p5=randoza01&y5=2011&p6=loveke01&y6=2011

Agreed, amare topping the votes so far is a completye joke. I have dirk pau and bosh as the top 3 and I am sure plenty of people on here agree with me about that. If amare was still on a smaller market team (imo) he wouldnt even be in the discussion for this spot

naps
07-21-2011, 12:07 PM
lol and Gasol stunk it up against the Mavs while Amare murders the man in front of him

Really? Did he murder the celtics PFs in the 1st round? :rolleyes:

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 12:08 PM
I don't really see any of those points as an argument. Pau statistically destroyed Amare last year, the argument is not even close. Not to mention Amare is one of the worst defensive PF in the league. How is he top 2 with all that working against him?

Oh so having Kobe with him has nothing to do with his efficency? You're telling me Pau doesn't benefit from Kobe? Who was Pau before he went to LA? He was a pretty good player who became a star by playing with one of the best players of all time. Who did Amare play with before Melo on the Knicks? Raymond Felton? Wilson Chandler? Amare was and is much more dominant than Gasol. And his bad defense is very overrated, especially since he's always one of the leaders in blocked shots. His man to man defense isn't great, but that's his only flaw. He can shoot from the perimeter, take people off the dribble, and post up better than Pau.

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 12:09 PM
Really? Did he murder the celtics PFs in the 1st round? :rolleyes:

Amare being hurt had nothing to do with that.:rolleyes:

naps
07-21-2011, 12:13 PM
Amare being hurt had nothing to do with that.:rolleyes:

And still played 35 mins a game.

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 12:14 PM
And still played 35 mins a game.

All the more reason to show people he isn't soft. He played hurt, I doubt the great Pau Gasol:rolleyes: would play great hurt either.

naps
07-21-2011, 12:14 PM
I think Pau is gonna win this one once the neutral fans come out.

IndiansFan337
07-21-2011, 12:14 PM
Pau Gasol, even though it will be a controversial choice.

nycericanguy
07-21-2011, 12:15 PM
Because he is a more dominant force. Because he carried the Knicks back to relevancy by himself. Because he doesn't have Kobe on his team to take huge pressure off him, although he has Melo now he was without Melo for two thirds of the year. etc. etc. etc. I'm not knocking Pau at all, but for me it's a no brainer Amare over Pau any day of teh week.

THIS... Look Amare wasn't that efficient, but he had alot of pressure on him and he had to carry that Knick team most of the season. He had a stretch of 9-10 games that was as good as any Knick I have ever seen.

Felton is a very solid player, but when he's your second leading scorer, a guy who averaged 12ppg for his career before coming to NY, that tells you that he didn't have anyone to really take the pressure off him offensively.

This is a case where you can't just look at straight numbers. If you see these guys play, Amare is the better player. Sometimes situations dictate how efficient you can be. Case in point the Celtics big 3.

If Gasol were asked to put up 25-28ppg I'm sure his efficiency would drop. And I know it was only 1 game, but GAME 1 in BOS, Amare destroyed Garnett and was willing NY to victory until Billups went down and the infamous 2 bad calls in 30 seconds against NY.

Da Knicks
07-21-2011, 12:16 PM
Really? Did he murder the celtics PFs in the 1st round? :rolleyes:

Game 1 before he got hurt yes Amare schooled the celts, not much you can do when you get hurt though. Amare was in the running for mvp till jan, how soon everyone forgets. For the people voting for Pau, like i said before i cant be mad at you since Pau is one of the best pf in the league but his dissapearing act in the playoffs without being hurt really hurts him and shows how the lakers play when he is no on his game. He is very underrated eventhough most people say he is overrated. He will have my vote for the next round.

naps
07-21-2011, 12:17 PM
All the more reason to show people he isn't soft. He played hurt, I doubt the great Pau Gasol:rolleyes: would play great hurt either.

Dude, Amare in NO WAY is better than Pau no matter how you slice it. Did you happen to miss this following post?


I totally understand a vote for Amare, but I'm taking the better two way player...

The guys second in the league in win shares, and third in WS/48. The guy with a higher PER than Amare. The more efficient scorer. The guy who is a better rebounder, passer, shot blocker, and most certainly the better defender.

Pau Gasol.


Amare thrived in a fast-tempo, low efficiency offense. I think many of the top 6-7 PFs could replicate his numbers and success, easily :shrug:

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 12:20 PM
THIS... Look Amare wasn't that efficient, but he had alot of pressure on him and he had to carry that Knick team most of the season. He had a stretch of 9-10 games that was as good as any Knick I have ever seen.

Felton is a very solid player, but when he's your second leading scorer, a guy who averaged 12ppg for his career before coming to NY, that tells you that he didn't have anyone to really take the pressure off him offensively.

This is a case where you can't just look at straight numbers. If you see these guys play, Amare is the better player. Sometimes situations dictate how efficient you can be. Case in point the Celtics big 3.

Exactly. I can't help but laugh when people act like having Kobe on his team for the last few years has nothing to do with Pau becoming a star. Without Kobe, Pau wouldn't even be close to the top five. What was the one thing everyone said before last year about Amare? He won't be as much of a star without Nash, blah blah blah. Well Amare was alone for two thirds of last year with a bunch of role players and he was a legit MVP candidate. I would love to see Pau play 54 games without Kobe, lmao.

NYMetros
07-21-2011, 12:20 PM
Oh so having Kobe with him has nothing to do with his efficency? You're telling me Pau doesn't benefit from Kobe? Who was Pau before he went to LA? He was a pretty good player who became a star by playing with one of the best players of all time. Who did Amare play with before Melo on the Knicks? Raymond Felton? Wilson Chandler? Amare was and is much more dominant than Gasol. And his bad defense is very overrated, especially since he's always one of the leaders in blocked shots. His man to man defense isn't great, but that's his only flaw. He can shoot from the perimeter, take people off the dribble, and post up better than Pau.

WTF? Have you ever watched Stoudemire play? Not only does Amare suck completely at man defense, he also has no idea of the concept of showing on the pick and roll and is always late on his rotations. He sucks in every area of playing defense. And I have no idea why you think Amare can post up better than Gasol, Amare barely ever plays with his back to the basket. He's a face up player that is a great roller in pick & rolls and a good spot up shooter. Having a lot of blocks doesn't make him a good defensive player. He puts in minimal effort on that side of the ball.

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 12:23 PM
WTF? Have you ever watched Stoudemire play? Not only does Amare suck completely at man defense, he also has no idea of the concept of showing on the pick and roll and is always late on his rotations. And I have no idea why you think Amare can post up better than Gasol, Amare barely ever plays with his back to the basket. He's a face up player that is a great roller in pick & rolls and a good spot up shooter. Having a lot of blocks doesn't make him a good defensive player. He puts in minimal effort on that side of the ball.

Amare is much more dangerous with the ball. He is very athletic and he can create his own shot from anywhere on the floor, including in the post. Gasol is a stick in mud when he tries to create his own shot. Without Kobe setting Gasol up or drawing double teams, Gasol would be the same good player he was in Memphis, not a star.

save the knicks
07-21-2011, 12:25 PM
Amare for all the haters

Crackadalic
07-21-2011, 12:27 PM
Our 2nd best player before melo was raymond felton. Pau is the 2nd best player behind Kobe. When Amare has the amount of talent that Pau's lakers has and Pau still beats him in stats then Its Pau but until then Amare has my vote

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 12:29 PM
Oh so having Kobe with him has nothing to do with his efficency? You're telling me Pau doesn't benefit from Kobe? Who was Pau before he went to LA? He was a pretty good player who became a star by playing with one of the best players of all time. Who did Amare play with before Melo on the Knicks? Raymond Felton? Wilson Chandler? Amare was and is much more dominant than Gasol. And his bad defense is very overrated, especially since he's always one of the leaders in blocked shots. His man to man defense isn't great, but that's his only flaw. He can shoot from the perimeter, take people off the dribble, and post up better than Pau.

Ok, but Amare's #'s got worse with Melo.

Mile High Champ
07-21-2011, 12:31 PM
lol and Gasol stunk it up against the Mavs while Amare murders the man in front of him

Amare was awful against the Celtics. He had a terrible post season and a very average regular season by his standards.

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 12:32 PM
Ok, but Amare's #'s got worse with Melo.

Hmmm. Could it be because Melo and Amare had to get used to each other? Hmmm. Oh and what a catastrphe, his numbers went down from 26 ppg to 25 ppg. A whole point, wow what are the Knicks gonna do. Of course that never happens when you get another guy who needs the ball too.

Crackadalic
07-21-2011, 12:34 PM
Amare was awful against the Celtics. He had a terrible post season and a very average regular season by his standards.

Amare manhandle in game 1 and was hurt in game's 2-4. Pau wasnt hurt at all and stunk it up in the playoffs. Your really gonna judge a player because he had a back injury?

NYKalltheway
07-21-2011, 12:36 PM
I voted for Garnett coz I felt sorry for him not having a single vote :p Didn't wanna go homer with Amare either which would be my choice anyway I guess

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 12:37 PM
Amare manhandle in game 1 and was hurt in game's 2-4. Pau wasnt hurt at all and stunk it up in the playoffs. Your really gonna judge a player because he had a back injury?

I called this before this thread even started. He plays for the Knicks so the haters will do everything they can to make a case against him. Hey it could be worse and more idiotic though, it could be an Amare vs. Bosh debate instead, lmao.

YoungOne
07-21-2011, 12:37 PM
amare then zbo..

Rivera
07-21-2011, 12:38 PM
i got amare here

was an MVP candidate for the 1st half and had a really good game 1 (i know i was there in the stands) and if the knicks would have got the ball to amare more down the strech they woulda won that game....they had the chance to still win it with melo playing a piss poor game 1

game 2-4 amare was hurt and thus manhandled paus feelings were hurt by his GF and it affected his play....amare has more mental toughness then pau

i got amare here based off last season

BlitzBlud4
07-21-2011, 12:38 PM
Probably Gasol, he's more efficient that Amar'e. But isn't Amar'e a center. I mean he always makes the all-nba teams as a center, and if Duncan is going to be in the center ranking, Amar'e should also IMO

mightybosstone
07-21-2011, 12:39 PM
I'm easily going with Pau on this one, but has no one else noticed that Tim Duncan isn't even an option in the polls? I'm not saying he should be anywhere near top 2 consideration, but the guy should certainly still be discussed toward the bottom of the top 10.

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 12:39 PM
Hmmm. Could it be because Melo and Amare had to get used to each other? Hmmm. Oh and what a catastrphe, his numbers went down from 26 ppg to 25 ppg. A whole point, wow what are the Knicks gonna do. Of course that never happens when you get another guy who needs the ball too.

Look at Gasol's #'s when he was traded to the Lakers midseason. They went up.

JordansBulls
07-21-2011, 12:40 PM
Pau easily. He has led the Lakers in win shares the past 3 seasons.

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 12:41 PM
Look at Gasol's #'s when he was traded to the Lakers midseason. They went up.

You just answered your own question. Pau needs Kobe for his #'s, without Kobe Pau is not only out of the top five, he'd barely be top ten. Pau would be a good player, not a star. Amare is a star no matter what, alone or with another star.

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 12:44 PM
You just answered your own question. Pau needs Kobe for his #'s, without Kobe Pau is not only out of the top five, he'd barely be top ten. Pau would be a good player, not a star. Amare is a star no matter what, alone or with another star.

Amare was playing with a 2 time MVP in Nash for his whole career with the Suns who is also the best passer in the NBA.

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 12:45 PM
Amare was playing with a 2 time MVP in Nash for his whole career with the Suns who is also the best passer in the NBA.

Did Nash play on the Knicks for the first two thirds of last season?

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 12:47 PM
Did Nash play on the Knicks for the first two thirds of last season?

Numbers don't lie. Gasol has him in almost everything and it isn't close. Amare isn't even better than Bosh, all Amare did was put up points on a garbage team.

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 12:48 PM
Numbers don't lie. Gasol has him in almost everything and it isn't close. Amare isn't even better than Bosh, all Amare did was put up points on a garbage team.

And carry them to a 28-26 record and a playoff team. Amare is much better than Bosh, that's not even a debate. And to me it's no debate with Gasol either.

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 12:51 PM
And carry them to a 28-26 record and a playoff team. Amare is much better than Bosh, that's not even a debate. And to me it's no debate with Gasol either.

The season is 82 games not 54. The pacers were in the Playoffs also and put up a better fight.

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 12:53 PM
The season is 82 games not 54. The pacers were in the Playoffs also and put up a better fight.

Amare was hurt, only a hater bashes a player who has a bad series when he is hurt. Gasol was terrible with no injury.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-21-2011, 12:56 PM
Yes, he is... just because BG is on SportsCenter a lot for dunks doesnt make him a better player

I don't watch Sportscenter so I wouldn't know.

But please explain how 19, 10, and 3 is better then 23, 12, 4?

BG>Gasol

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 12:59 PM
Amare was hurt, only a hater bashes a player who has a bad series when he is hurt. Gasol was terrible with no injury.

Gasol has been playing until the last game of the season for 3 straight prior to this one, the whloe Laker team wasn't playing well outside of Bynum. Amare was on a run and gun team shooting all the time because he was playing with scrubs, he also shot his lowest FG% of the last 5 years.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-21-2011, 01:07 PM
lmfao, if Amare will get voted as a 2nd best PF:facepalm:

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 01:11 PM
Amare doesn't even have a post up game. What does he do better than Gasol?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-21-2011, 01:11 PM
I don't watch Sportscenter so I wouldn't know.

But please explain how 19, 10, and 3 is better then 23, 12, 4?

BG>Gasol

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

regular stats:facepalm:

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-21-2011, 01:14 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

regular stats:facepalm:

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm:Stats that matter?? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


Go ahead and do the PPG+MPG-TO's x PPG when he eats lay's chips for lunch + Kobe's PPG, to get whatever number you want.

I'll take they're averages :)

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 01:16 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm:Stats that matter?? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


Go ahead and do the PPG+MPG-TO's x PPG when he eats lay's chips for lunch + Kobe's PPG, to get whatever number you want.

I'll take they're averages :)

Just a question for you, do you understand why averages can be pretty useless? Or put another way, do you understand the concept of pace?

Forget the fact that this argument involves a Knicks player, I'm asking you a simple basketball question.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-21-2011, 01:18 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm:Stats that matter?? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


Go ahead and do the PPG+MPG-TO's x PPG when he eats lay's chips for lunch + Kobe's PPG, to get whatever number you want.

I'll take they're averages :)

cant use regular stats, the pace is different by teams, gasol is a 2nd option while amare is 1st. etc.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-21-2011, 01:19 PM
Just a question for you, do you understand why averages can be pretty useless? Or put another way, do you understand the concept of pace?

Forget the fact that this argument involves a Knicks player, I'm asking you a simple basketball question.

The argument invovling a Knick player?

No... I said Blake Griffin was better then Bosh... and he said that he wasn't?

And no I don't really understand your question sorry what do you mean statistics can be useless...

BlitzBlud4
07-21-2011, 01:20 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

regular stats:facepalm:

I got Gasol and I agree that regular season stats shouldn't be considered too much, but even with that, Gasol didn't really play that much better than Amar'e in the post-season (if he did play better than him at all)

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-21-2011, 01:20 PM
cant use regular stats, the pace is different by teams, gasol is a 2nd option while amare is 1st. etc.

No Melo is the first option.

But I'm not even talkin about Amare... I respsonded to whoever said that Bosh was better then Griffin... and I said he wasn't.

But if your talkin about pace... This discussion is pretty pointless don't you tink?

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-21-2011, 01:22 PM
All I said is. Griffin is better then Gasol.

23 PPG > 19 PPG
12 RBG > 10 RBG
4 APG > 3 APG

Simple as that. We don't needa throw in advanced stats, and all these math equations. It's not that difficult.

theheatles
07-21-2011, 01:23 PM
blake griffin is going to fck this list up because he is going to get voted 3-4 spots too high off popularity

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 01:24 PM
Amare was awful against the Celtics. He had a terrible post season and a very average regular season by his standards.

Right he did, efficiency wise, which is why you always have to keep in mind the usage-efficiency tradeoff. Amare had his highest USG% of his career and out of the list of PFs, quite easily had the highest USG% out of all of them. Before this year, he had posted 4 straight years with a TS% above 60% (which would beat everyone here) so I think its reasonable to think that with an increased USG%, his TS% would have gone down. Interestingly, his TOV% remained around the same.

With all of that being said, he stinks defensively so I'm not really advocating taking him here. Just pointing out that his average regular season by his standards was due to an increased USG rate. Something to keep in mind when it gets further down in the voting.

Swashcuff
07-21-2011, 01:27 PM
Wow people are saying that Amar'e is clearly better than Bosh and Gasol... Smh. Chris Bosh was one of the most underrated PFs in the league last season. In terms of two way PFs (combined value offensively and defensivley) Bosh is easily top 5 and MUCH more valuable than Amar'e on D.

People who are saying Bosh is overrated have no idea what they're talking about. Back to the topic at hand Pau Gasol was indeed the 2nd best PF for the entirety of last season. Amar'e started off great but tailed as the season went on. The only knock I have on Pau is his post season play.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 01:27 PM
cant use regular stats, the pace is different by teams, gasol is a 2nd option while amare is 1st. etc.

This actually illustrates the concept of USG% more and its something people often forget when they evaluate players. An increased USG% will typically lead to a decreased shooting %/ORtg, etc.

Swashcuff
07-21-2011, 01:27 PM
This debate is really going to start to get interesting from 4-10

Chacarron
07-21-2011, 01:31 PM
Gasol was still dominant in the regular season. He did slip in the playoffs but Gasol is still the second best PF in the NBA.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 01:31 PM
All I said is. Griffin is better then Gasol.

23 PPG > 19 PPG
12 RBG > 10 RBG
4 APG > 3 APG

Simple as that. We don't needa throw in advanced stats, and all these math equations. It's not that difficult.

It's not a math equation, not unless you're in 2nd grade. TS% is simply points per possession divided by 2. Does that sound hard?

The reason pace is important is because teams who play at a fast pace get more opportunities to score. A team who plays at a fast pace will naturally attempt more shots, therefore leading to more made shots, which in turn leads to more points.

Understand?

naps
07-21-2011, 01:34 PM
I don't watch Sportscenter so I wouldn't know.

But please explain how 19, 10, and 3 is better then 23, 12, 4?

BG>Gasol

Really? Please explain how 25.3, 8.2, 2.6 is better than 23,12,4?

BG>Amare. Why did you vote for Amare then?

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-21-2011, 01:41 PM
Really? Please explain how 25.3, 8.2, 2.6 is better than 23,12,4?

BG>Amare. Why did you vote for Amare then?

I didn't vote for Amare. I just posted that I think he's the number two PF/

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-21-2011, 01:42 PM
It's not a math equation, not unless you're in 2nd grade. TS% is simply points per possession divided by 2. Does that sound hard?

The reason pace is important is because teams who play at a fast pace get more opportunities to score. A team who plays at a fast pace will naturally attempt more shots, therefore leading to more made shots, which in turn leads to more points.

Understand?

Yea...

what's TS%?

See this is why I may be a little bias towards advanced stats. I don't really try to learn them and just stick to basic stats...

naps
07-21-2011, 01:48 PM
I didn't vote for Amare. I just posted that I think he's the number two PF/

Are F'ing serious? You voted Amare as the 2nd best PF even though Griffin beats Amare according to your formula, the same formula you used to BG>Pau.

Here, take a look at your own vote: http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=38102

WOW :facepalm:

Hustlenomics
07-21-2011, 01:49 PM
Really? Did he murder the celtics PFs in the 1st round? :rolleyes:

because he didn't have a bad back right :rolleyes:

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 01:50 PM
Yea...

what's TS%?

See this is why I may be a little bias towards advanced stats. I don't really try to learn them and just stick to basic stats...

Ok, I'll try to put it as simply as I can. Do you understand the concept of a possession? I would think you do (24 second shot clock and you have to try to make a basket it that time, that's 1 possession, sometimes you shoot before the shot clock expires).

Now TS% is simply points per possession and then dividing that by 2. The 2 is only there to make it easier for casual fans who wouldn't understand what a good TS% is. The league average is typically around 54%.

There's 1 advanced stat, simple right?

If I didn't explain it well, maybe this site will help: http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2010/8/16/1624997/advanced-metrics-handbook-vol-2

(their explanation may actually be more complicated then mine, i don't know)

Then you're missing a lot. FYI, almost every NBA team uses pace adjusted stats. They may not say that in public but thats only because they think the casual fan doesn't understand the concept of pace.

Cowboys4Life619
07-21-2011, 01:52 PM
Must be a lot of Knick fans voting for a dude that doesn't play defense!! Lol..I thought the NBA court had two sides to it!

Hustlenomics
07-21-2011, 01:53 PM
Must be a lot of Knick fans voting for a dude that doesn't play defense!! Lol..I thought the NBA court had two sides to it!

yea and Gasol has been soft his whole career. When Amare faces him he dunks on him all the time

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-21-2011, 01:56 PM
Are F'ing serious? You voted Amare as the 2nd best PF even though Griffin beats Amare according to your formula, the same formula you used to BG>Pau.

Here, take a look at your own vote: http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=38102

WOW :facepalm:

Woah my bad..! Yeah... then yes by my logic BG is better then Amare. and My bias-ness voted for Amare.

SteBO
07-21-2011, 01:58 PM
yea and Gasol has been soft his whole career. When Amare faces him he dunks on him all the time
I went Pau Gasol here. Before people cascade me about his playoff meltdown, need I remind you that was tough for him to get into any real rythm on offense, since you know who won't get him the ball consistently. That's a moot point though, because he's very skilled on the offensive end, on both the high and low blocks. He's also very underrated in the passing department, so based on that I'll go him at #2. Amare is good option here as well, but Gasol is more well rounded imo, at least as far as offense is concerned. Defensively, not so much obviously.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-21-2011, 01:58 PM
Ok, I'll try to put it as simply as I can. Do you understand the concept of a possession? I would think you do (24 second shot clock and you have to try to make a basket it that time, that's 1 possession, sometimes you shoot before the shot clock expires).

Now TS% is simply points per possession and then dividing that by 2. The 2 is only there to make it easier for casual fans who wouldn't understand what a good TS% is. The league average is typically around 54%.

There's 1 advanced stat, simple right?

If I didn't explain it well, maybe this site will help: http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2010/8/16/1624997/advanced-metrics-handbook-vol-2

(their explanation may actually be more complicated then mine, i don't know)

Then you're missing a lot. FYI, almost every NBA team uses pace adjusted stats. They may not say that in public but thats only because they think the casual fan doesn't understand the concept of pace.

So your saying player A) scores 54% of the time when the team has possesion of the ball?

how do you find the TS% tho...

what does T.S. mean? lol

JoeyDubb23
07-21-2011, 02:00 PM
Amare- not a homer pick,

People forget that for the first half of the season amare was a very strong mvp candidate.

What was it like 7 games in a row of 30 straight points? And that was before Carmelo so the other teams pretty much Trippled amare, but he still beasted.

As for the playoffs he was an animal in game 1, but took the loss b/c of a last second 3 by ray allen, ( who was wide open b/c KG threw Toney douglas to the ground) And then he got hurt before game two. A serious injury that even from a recent interview about a week or two ago he said he still isnt 100%

As for defense his 1on1 needs some adjustment but I think he is a great help defender. I mean he averaged 2 blocks a game. And not blocks on nobodys either. He had many highlight plays swatting the likes of MVP d rose and Lebron.

Dont get me wrong his best asset is his athleticism, which will wear out soon and he will be passed by the likes of people like griffin and aldridge. But right now at this very moment he is the clear #2 pf

Some people say Gasol but was gasol tripple teamed ona nightly basis? No he had Bynum as his body guard, and kobe as the killer.

Amare brought the knicks back from the dead.

SteBO
07-21-2011, 02:01 PM
So your saying player A) scores 54% of the time when the team has possesion of the ball?

how do you find the TS% tho...

what does T.S. mean? lol
T.S. means true shooting percentage.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-21-2011, 02:01 PM
Yea...

what's TS%?

See this is why I may be a little bias towards advanced stats. I don't really try to learn them and just stick to basic stats...

wow are you kidding me??

I think it isn't even a an advandced stat.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-21-2011, 02:03 PM
yea and Gasol has been soft his whole career. When Amare faces him he dunks on him all the time

:laugh2:

But why Amare loses those games all the time?......he doesn't play any defense thats why.

Sadds The Gr8
07-21-2011, 02:04 PM
:laugh2:

But why Amare loses those games all the time?......he doesn't play any defense thats why.

lol

naps
07-21-2011, 02:08 PM
Woah my bad..! Yeah... then yes by my logic BG is better then Amare. and My bias-ness voted for Amare.

Thanks for admitting. Fair enough.

Hustlenomics
07-21-2011, 02:09 PM
:laugh2:

But why Amare loses those games all the time?......he doesn't play any defense thats why.

could of sworn amare dropped 40+ this game with facials all over Gasol in the clutch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smDE1t156UQ and Lakers were a better team that's why they won the series

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 02:10 PM
So your saying player A) scores 54% of the time when the team has possesion of the ball?

how do you find the TS% tho...

what does T.S. mean? lol

Ok, doesn't look like I quite explained it properly. A possession for the team doesn't necessarily mean a possession for the player. If that player is just standing around and watching, he didn't really do anything right? So a possession for a player is usually either a shot attempt, a turnover or a free throw attempt. And the number of points that player scores is then divided by the number of possessions he uses. Thats points per possession. TS% is simply dividing that by 2.

Or maybe a simpler way of explaining it is you understand the concept of FG% correct? Well TS% also factors in free throws and the fact that a 3 pointer is worth 1 more point then a 2 point shot.

Don't know if thats any clearer.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-21-2011, 02:14 PM
Ok, doesn't look like I quite explained it properly. A possession for the team doesn't necessarily mean a possession for the player. If that player is just standing around and watching, he didn't really do anything right? So a possession for a player is usually either a shot attempt, a turnover or a free throw attempt. And the number of points that player scores is then divided by the number of possessions he uses. Thats points per possession. TS% is simply dividing that by 2.

Or maybe a simpler way of explaining it is you understand the concept of FG% correct? Well TS% also factors in free throws and the fact that a 3 pointer is worth 1 more point then a 2 point shot.

Don't know if thats any clearer.

ohhhhhhok yea your second paragraph summed it all up. So... I'm assuming Durant has a pretty high TS% then... good FG%, great FT%, good 3PT shooter...

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 02:20 PM
ohhhhhhok yea your second paragraph summed it all up. So... I'm assuming Durant has a pretty high TS% then... good FG%, great FT%, good 3PT shooter...

Yup, here's the actual formula (and if this confuses you, just think of it the way I had described):


Points / (2 * (FGA + 0.44 * FTA))

To make it simpler, you can take out the 2 (which I've never understood why they do that anyways, it often makes it harder to explain):


Points / (FGA + 0.44 * FTA))

This is points per possession.

If you're wondering about the .44, here's Chronz's explanation:


Let me word it differently, if 44% of each free throw cost a possession then 1 pair of free throws take .88 right. The other 12% come from either AND1's technicals, flagrants, clear-path fouls, or as the third part of a shooting foul from behind the three-point arc.

Mathematically speaking, you start with a FTA = 1/2 a possession or 0.5, then you deduct for those 12% aforementioned sequences, where 0.5 * 0.12 = 0.06 and 0.5 - 0.06 = 0.44

Not all Free Throws are obviously a pair of 2 that you get for attacking the basket, sometimes you shoot technical free throws, flagrants, etc. so thats what the .44 is there for.

BkOriginalOne
07-21-2011, 02:21 PM
Blake Griffin is going to jump to the top of this list next season.

SirDJ
07-21-2011, 02:23 PM
Amare, but Gasol is very close imo since he is the best player on a very good team.

:eyebrow:

Raph12
07-21-2011, 02:25 PM
Pau easily...

AIMelo=KillaDUO
07-21-2011, 02:28 PM
Yup, here's the actual formula (and if this confuses you, just think of it the way I had described):



To make it simpler, you can take out the 2 (which I've never understood why they do that anyways, it often makes it harder to explain):



This is points per possession.

If you're wondering about the .44, here's Chronz's explanation:



Not all Free Throws are obviously a pair of 2 that you get for attacking the basket, sometimes you shoot technical free throws, flagrants, etc. so thats what the .44 is there for.

Thanks bruh. :hi5:

VCaintdead17
07-21-2011, 02:29 PM
Yeah Pau has better numbers in basically every advance stat category there it. I don't know how you could pick A'mare when Pau is just flat out better.

Swashcuff
07-21-2011, 02:30 PM
Thanks bruh. :hi5:

He's a really quality poster. Very informative and helpful.

ewmania
07-21-2011, 02:31 PM
I don't really see any of those points as an argument. Pau statistically destroyed Amare last year, the argument is not even close. Not to mention Amare is one of the worst defensive PF in the league. How is he top 2 with all that working against him?

kevin durant is one of the worse defending sf's in the league but yet he went number #2... stop hating and give credit when its due

amare is a offensive monster, the speed of a 3 with the body of a 4. he has a holes in his game just like alot of people

dirk isnt all that great on defense either

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 02:31 PM
Thanks bruh. :hi5:

No problem. I think the reason why many people don't like advanced stats is because no one really takes the time to explain some of them, which is unfortunate.

Anyways, I have to step out but maybe someone else wants to explain USG%?

And to MHC, I'm sorry for sort of hijacking this thread but I think its good if people at least understand some of the more basic advanced stats.

GhostfaceDrilla
07-21-2011, 02:33 PM
lol and Gasol stunk it up against the Mavs while Amare murders the man in front of him

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=nowitdi01&p2=stoudam01

Before you talk about something that you don't know, look at the information.

Dirk averages more points, rebounds, assists, FT% and has won 15 games out of the 25 games they have played.

There is much more,

Hustlenomics
07-21-2011, 02:34 PM
kevin durant is one of the worse defending sf's in the league but yet he went number #2... stop hating and give credit when its due

amare is a offensive monster, the speed of a 3 with the body of a 4. he has a holes in his game just like alot of people

dirk isnt all that great on defense either

defense doesn't matter when it hurts their argument, but all of a sudden it's relevant when discrediting someone else

Hustlenomics
07-21-2011, 02:35 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=nowitdi01&p2=stoudam01

Before you talk about something that you don't know, look at the information.

Dirk averages more points, rebounds, assists, FT% and has won 15 games out of the 25 games they have played.

There is much more,

huh? I think Dirk is the best PF in the league so this is irrelevant

ewmania
07-21-2011, 02:38 PM
defense doesn't matter when it hurts their argument, but all of a sudden it's relevant when discrediting someone else

exactly... and if thats the case iggo should of been over every 3 besides lebron because thats the only SF that plays defense better than him

JoeyDubb23
07-21-2011, 02:39 PM
I love how people only talk about advanced stats, But not emotion or presence or leadership or comradery on the court. Things that cant be recorded statistically that people seem to forget. Basketball is a very passionate game. Statistics arent everything.

AntiG
07-21-2011, 02:40 PM
Aldridge.

Unlike Pau and Boozer, Lamarcus plays defense and isn't a ginormous vag.

Unlike Amare and Bosh, Lamarcus plays defense.

And he rebounds better than any of them.

KG and Lamarcus are by far the most complete PFs in the NBA, and Lamarcus is going into his prime.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-21-2011, 02:40 PM
kevin durant is one of the worse defending sf's in the league but yet he went number #2... stop hating and give credit when its due

amare is a offensive monster, the speed of a 3 with the body of a 4. he has a holes in his game just like alot of people

dirk isnt all that great on defense either

that should be melo

ewmania
07-21-2011, 02:41 PM
the biggest question to me is..... who in the heck voted for david west lol

ewmania
07-21-2011, 02:42 PM
that should be melo

i guess you missed the part where i said "one of worse"

u know that includes more than "1" player right?

just checking

Mile High Champ
07-21-2011, 02:48 PM
No problem. I think the reason why many people don't like advanced stats is because no one really takes the time to explain some of them, which is unfortunate.

Anyways, I have to step out but maybe someone else wants to explain USG%?

And to MHC, I'm sorry for sort of hijacking this thread but I think its good if people at least understand some of the more basic advanced stats.

Power to you, you have some great information to offer.

PocketKings
07-21-2011, 02:49 PM
Aldridge.

Unlike Pau and Boozer, Lamarcus plays defense and isn't a ginormous vag.

Unlike Amare and Bosh, Lamarcus plays defense.

And he rebounds better than any of them.

KG and Lamarcus are by far the most complete PFs in the NBA, and Lamarcus is going into his prime.

LaMarcus actually is a very very poor rebounder.

This year Kevin Love posted a HIGHER ORB% than LaMarcus posted for TRB%.

For the amount of minutes LMA plays, you'd expect much better production from a rebounding standpoint.

He's also not the defender your making him out to be, and he's very average when it comes to efficiency.

He's a great player no doubt but the top 5 is a bit pre-mature for him.

Edit: Boozer, KG, Bosh, Pau are all better rebounders btw and you can make an argument for them all being better defenders too.

strokeman
07-21-2011, 02:51 PM
Dirk
Amare
Randolph
Bosh (playoffs play move him up!)
Gasol (playoffs play dropped him!)
Garnett
Griffin
Love
Aldridge
Boozer

Da Knicks
07-21-2011, 02:52 PM
i guess you missed the part where i said "one of worse"

u know that includes more than "1" player right?

just checking

Dont bother with him, he is the biggest melo hater and will try his hardest to get people to discredit him anytime he gets the chance. I think Melo did something really bad to him growing up.:D

Hustlenomics
07-21-2011, 02:55 PM
dont bother with him, he is the biggest melo hater and will try his hardest to get people to discredit him anytime he gets the chance. I think melo did something really bad to him growing up.:d

+ 1

smood999
07-21-2011, 03:00 PM
amare...
there is more to the game than just stats...i hate when ppl use only stats for one argument in their favor but then when it doesnt favor them they bring out the point that theres more to the game besides stats...but there is

this is y im goin w amare...taking a team that won 29 games the yr before somthing like 32 before that and 20 something before that...and having them over 500 at mid season...leading them to 28 wins before melo says something...it cant be overlooked...then u gotta ask alright what if it was pau on the knicks instead would the results have been the same...how bout putting amare on the lakers where his rebounding and defense wouldnt be as much of a liability as with the knicks due to bynum being there...would the laker have failed so miserably against the mavs? amare is more likely to take over than pau is and he doesnt back down or disappear...pau has had a soft reputation his entire career its not just this yr....also put bosh on the knicks, the knicks would just be the raptors and still in the lottery...put amare on the heat...yes defensively theyd get a little worse but at the same time mia has a very good team defense put in place (ie ray allen on bos, even pierce)...mia wouldve had another player w a killer instinct...who wouldve helped them get the key buckets down the stretch..who if lebron is taking a quarter off who is enough along w d wade to carry mia through

w the suns...arguably the best player in the league the 2nd half of the prior season...carried the suns on his back....mvp candidate 07-08 season...and ppl that say o he just loses...how many losing season has he had in his career? how many 50 win teams has he been on? even if u say nash, fine amare was still 2nd best on those teams....look at the suns now that he's gone and look at the improvement of the knicks...the guy is not a loser...and how the 2 franchises changed should show...

mightybosstone
07-21-2011, 03:01 PM
kevin durant is one of the worse defending sf's in the league but yet he went number #2... stop hating and give credit when its due
This is just wrong. He's certainly not an elite defender at the position, but I absolultely would not consider him "one of the worst."


amare is a offensive monster, the speed of a 3 with the body of a 4. he has a holes in his game just like alot of people

dirk isnt all that great on defense either
Amare is far more of a liability in the frontcourt than Durant is at the 3. Comparing the two of them is ridiculous. Scarecrows guard the paint better than Stoudemire.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-21-2011, 03:05 PM
This is just wrong. He's certainly not an elite defender at the position, but I absolultely would not consider him "one of the worst."


Amare is far more of a liability in the frontcourt than Durant is at the 3. Comparing the two of them is ridiculous. Scarecrows guard the paint better than Stoudemire.

Thanks for sure, now my laptop screen is covered with lemonade:(

Swashcuff
07-21-2011, 03:19 PM
I got Pau here and I shall say why

Advanced of all the players figured to be in the running for the top 10 sorted by WS

Rk Player G GS MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48 FG% 3P% FT%
2 Pau Gasol 82 82 3037 23.3 .589 .530 10.3 20.5 15.6 15.1 0.8 3.3 9.8 21.8 123 103 10.0 4.7 14.7 0.232 .529 .333 .823
5 Kevin Love 73 73 2611 24.3 .593 .513 13.7 34.2 23.6 11.8 0.9 0.8 11.1 22.9 123 108 9.0 2.5 11.4 0.210 .470 .417 .850
6 LaMarcus Aldridge 81 81 3211 21.5 .549 .501 10.1 17.2 13.5 10.1 1.4 2.4 8.7 25.7 114 107 7.6 3.5 11.1 0.166 .500 .174 .791
7 Dirk Nowitzki 73 73 2504 23.4 .612 .545 2.4 20.8 12.0 14.2 0.8 1.4 9.1 28.2 118 105 7.8 3.3 11.1 0.213 .517 .393 .892
8 Zach Randolph 75 74 2724 22.6 .552 .507 14.2 26.0 20.1 10.2 1.2 0.7 10.0 25.0 115 105 6.8 3.7 10.5 0.185 .503 .186 .758
9 Chris Bosh 77 77 2795 19.4 .569 .499 6.4 20.0 13.6 8.9 1.1 1.4 9.8 23.5 115 103 6.1 4.2 10.3 0.177 .496 .240 .815
10 Lamar Odom 82 35 2639 19.4 .589 .568 7.8 22.2 15.2 15.5 0.9 1.8 12.2 19.7 118 103 6.1 4.0 10.1 0.184 .530 .382 .675
12 Blake Griffin 82 82 3112 21.9 .549 .508 10.2 26.9 18.6 18.7 1.0 1.1 11.7 27.3 111 107 6.5 3.4 9.8 0.152 .506 .292 .642
14 Elton Brand 81 81 2809 18.5 .553 .512 9.7 18.0 13.9 7.1 1.7 2.9 8.4 19.7 114 103 5.1 4.4 9.4 0.161 .512 .000 .780
15 Kevin Garnett 71 71 2220 20.6 .575 .529 4.9 28.7 17.5 13.5 2.3 2.0 11.1 22.3 110 95 3.4 5.6 9.0 0.194 .528 .200 .862
16 Amare Stoudemire 78 78 2870 22.7 .565 .505 7.8 17.6 12.7 13.2 1.2 3.8 12.5 30.9 109 108 5.4 2.6 8.0 0.134 .502 .435 .792
19 David West 70 70 2451 20.4 .558 .509 7.6 18.7 13.1 12.7 1.5 2.1 10.7 25.8 111 104 4.4 3.4 7.8 0.152 .508 .222 .807
20 Tim Duncan 76 76 2156 21.9 .537 .500 9.3 26.8 18.3 15.7 1.2 4.8 11.4 22.9 111 100 3.7 4.0 7.7 0.171 .500 .000 .716
21 Paul Millsap 76 76 2605 19.8 .578 .536 7.5 19.4 13.4 12.6 2.1 2.2 11.3 22.6 114 108 5.2 2.5 7.7 0.143 .531 .391 .757
22 Serge Ibaka 82 44 2216 17.7 .579 .543 11.7 20.8 16.4 1.6 0.7 6.5 9.2 15.7 119 104 4.3 3.2 7.6 0.164 .543 .000 .750
28 Josh Smith 77 77 2645 19.2 .540 .502 6.2 23.7 15.0 17.1 2.0 3.5 14.3 24.7 104 102 1.9 4.5 6.4 0.116 .477 .331 .725
34 David Lee 73 73 2634 17.8 .549 .508 9.1 21.9 15.4 14.0 1.4 0.9 13.4 21.2 111 110 4.1 1.9 6.0 0.110 .507 .333 .787
36 Carlos Boozer 59 59 1882 18.8 .542 .510 8.3 26.3 17.6 14.3 1.3 0.7 13.5 26.9 105 99 1.9 3.9 5.8 0.149 .510 .701
41 Luis Scola 74 74 2412 18.4 .538 .504 6.9 21.6 14.2 13.7 1.0 1.3 10.5 25.7 108 108 3.3 2.2 5.5 0.110 .504 .000 .738
42 Kris Humphries 74 44 2061 17.8 .555 .527 12.5 32.2 22.1 7.0 0.9 3.0 13.4 17.3 111 105 2.7 2.7 5.4 0.125 .527 .000 .665

SPM (Statistical +/-) of the player's figured to be in the running for the top 10

Player G Min OSPM DSPM SPM
Kevin Love 73 2611 5.33 0.05 5.37
Dirk Nowitzki 73 2504 4.93 -0.04 4.89
Pau Gasol 82 3037 3.23 0.65 3.88
Josh Smith 77 2645 0.43 3.08 3.51
Blake Griffin 82 3112 3.34 0.05 3.39
Lamar Odom 82 2639 2.12 1.07 3.19
Zach Randolph 75 2724 3.80 -0.66 3.14
Paul Millsap 76 2593 2.09 0.90 2.98
Carlos Boozer 59 1882 0.79 1.98 2.77
Tim Duncan 76 2156 0.24 2.02 2.26
L Aldridge 81 3211 2.96 -0.72 2.24
Elton Brand 81 2809 0.67 1.53 2.20
David West 70 2451 1.97 0.24 2.20
Chris Bosh 77 2795 1.47 0.60 2.07
Amare Stoud 78 2870 2.43 -0.88 1.54
Luis Scola 74 2412 0.92 -0.23 0.70
David Lee 73 2634 0.47 -0.53 -0.07
Serge Ibaka 82 2216 -1.40 1.27 -0.13

Pau is #1 in WS, WS/48, ORtg, #5 in PER and #3 in SPM. Some other stats.

He was #1 among all PFs last season in EWA (Estimated Wins Added) with is is simply converting PER into how many wins you added for your team (Thanks to patsSOXknicks for all the incredible posts in the stats forum) with 17.9 EWA.

In terms of WARP2 (a stat which Chronz covets as one of the best there its to ascetain a player's worth) he was ranked #2 among all PFs last season with Kevin Love at #1.

In terms of Wins Produced Pau was ranked #3 among all PFs (Kevin Love at 1 and Zach Randolph at 2) with 16.3 Wins Produced.

And lastly in terms of eWins he was again ranked #2 among all PFs and 8th in terms of ewins/484 (e484).

Player eWins e484
Griffin,Blake 13.5 2.11
Gasol,Pau 12.8 2.04
Love,Kevin 12.1 2.23
Aldridge,Lamarcu 12.0 1.81
Randolph,Zach 11.9 2.11
Nowitzki,Dirk 11.8 2.28
Stoudemire,Amare 11.4 1.93
Bosh,Chris 9.8 1.69
Garnett,Kevin 9.6 2.09
Smith,Josh 9.5 1.74
Duncan,Tim 9.2 2.07
West,David 9.1 1.79
Millsap,Paul 8.8 1.63
Odom,Lamar 8.8 1.61
Scola,Luis 8.4 1.69
Brand,Elton 8.3 1.43
Boozer,Carlos 8.2 2.10
Lee,David 7.4 1.36

If you want to speak of statistics there is no way in which Pau could fall to 3 based on his production last season.

If you guys wanna know where I took all this info from you can check out http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=627188

Hopefully this helps guys who are still torn in their rankings.

Kashmir13579
07-21-2011, 03:24 PM
I voted Kevin Love :shrug:

Swashcuff
07-21-2011, 03:26 PM
Aldridge.

Unlike Pau and Boozer, Lamarcus plays defense and isn't a ginormous vag.

Unlike Amare and Bosh, Lamarcus plays defense.

And he rebounds better than any of them.

KG and Lamarcus are by far the most complete PFs in the NBA, and Lamarcus is going into his prime.

:confused:

Bosh and Pau are better defensively than Lamarcus well at least he was last season.

Aldridge wasn't even in the top 30 among PFs last season in Total Rebounding %. He's a sub par rebounder still.

marj987
07-21-2011, 03:27 PM
Well if this ine gonna be Amare then the next one should be hands down Garnett.

sunnydayin'zona
07-21-2011, 03:31 PM
Gasol. I'm an Amare fan, but Gasol rebounds and plays D. Not to mention, Gasol can score just as much as Amare in just as many different ways. While we like to focus on Gasol choking in the playoffs this year, Amare has choked in the playoffs before. Both have also had amazing playoffs before. What wins it for me is that Gasol plays better D, and Amare refuses to learn to rebound.

Kashmir13579
07-21-2011, 03:33 PM
To Amar'es credit, his offensive efficiency is comparable to Pau's even with a higher USG%.

I think Amar'e was much more important to the Knicks than Pau was to the Lakers. Take Pau off the Lakers they likely still make the playoffs. Take Amar'e off the Knicks they are a lottery team with no draft picks.

P.S that isn't an argument for Amar'e being the better player. I just see a lot of people in here taking shots at Amar'e and i don't think its warranted. I have nothing but love for my no defense-all offense superstar who helped the Knicks regain relevance.

Crackadalic
07-21-2011, 03:34 PM
I used stats and advance stats also but is stats the only argument most of the posters use to tell how good a player is? I feel like every single time we determine if a player is good that we go straight to stats and stats only and leave everything else out

Lake_Show2416
07-21-2011, 03:35 PM
Easily Pau Gasol, he does everything, he doesnt just jump high & dunk....... short term memory for some folks

Kashmir13579
07-21-2011, 03:35 PM
The only reason Amar'e wins here is because Knicks fans on PSD out-number everyone else.

mightybosstone
07-21-2011, 03:36 PM
Well if this ine gonna be Amare then the next one should be hands down Garnett.

You can make an argument for Amare over Gasol (as wrong as it is), but I would love to see your argument for Garnett over Gasol. Off the top of my head, I doubt KG would crak my top 5 in his old age.

mightybosstone
07-21-2011, 03:37 PM
The only reason Amar'e wins here is because Knicks fans on PSD out-number everyone else.

I was going to make this argument until I remember how many Lakers' fans there area and how easy it would be for them to overrun the poll with Gasol votes.

alencp3
07-21-2011, 03:47 PM
damn it looks like griffin wont be even top 5
i better call saul !!!

Kashmir13579
07-21-2011, 03:48 PM
I was going to make this argument until I remember how many Lakers' fans there area and how easy it would be for them to overrun the poll with Gasol votes.

Maybe they're just too busy winning rings to care about a silly poll. OH SNAP!

Knicks fans gotta win something, am i right? :D

ewmania
07-21-2011, 03:49 PM
im actually a laker and knick fan

knicks #1, laker #2.... but like one poster said amare had much more importance to this knick season then gasol does a laker season

but i do believe both teams need both of them to make a playoff run

DR_1
07-21-2011, 03:49 PM
Amar'e - he was an MVP candidate before Melo went to the Knicks.

alencp3
07-21-2011, 03:50 PM
Yes, he is... just because BG is on SportsCenter a lot for dunks doesnt make him a better player

if heat had griffin instead of bosh, they would have swept everyone in the playoffs
just sayin'

ewmania
07-21-2011, 03:50 PM
man i swear this 1 david west vote is killing me :)) :))

how can david west have a vote and not smith hahaha

i think smith is actually a 3 if im not mistaken, in atl he just plays the 4

Catfish1314
07-21-2011, 03:55 PM
I don't know how this isn't Pau. Regardless how much he sucked in the playoffs, he's still by far a better two-way player than Amar'e or Bosh.

akesh99
07-21-2011, 03:55 PM
you list West but not Millsap or Duncan?

ewmania
07-21-2011, 03:56 PM
you list West but not Millsap or Duncan?

lol this

PocketKings
07-21-2011, 03:57 PM
I don't know how this isn't Pau. Regardless how much he sucked in the playoffs, he's still by far a better two-way player than Amar'e or Bosh.

This.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 03:58 PM
I voted Kevin Love :shrug:

Not a bad choice at all. He'll definitely surpass Pau next year, at least that's what I think.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 04:01 PM
To Amar'es credit, his offensive efficiency is comparable to Pau's even with a higher USG%.

I think Amar'e was much more important to the Knicks than Pau was to the Lakers. Take Pau off the Lakers they likely still make the playoffs. Take Amar'e off the Knicks they are a lottery team with no draft picks.

P.S that isn't an argument for Amar'e being the better player. I just see a lot of people in here taking shots at Amar'e and i don't think its warranted. I have nothing but love for my no defense-all offense superstar who helped the Knicks regain relevance.

I had pointed that out earlier (about the high USG%, decreased shooting %'s) about Amare'. I think this explains quite easily why Amare' didn't post his 5th consecutive season with a TS% over 60%.

ewmania
07-21-2011, 04:02 PM
I had pointed that out earlier (about the high USG%, decreased shooting %'s) about Amare'. I think this explains quite easily why Amare' didn't post his 5th consecutive season with a TS% over 60%.

amare wins, now lets move on shall we lol

WadeKobe
07-21-2011, 04:04 PM
I don't know how this isn't Pau. Regardless how much he sucked in the playoffs, he's still by far a better two-way player than Amar'e or Bosh.

^^ This. How is this not Pau?

WadeKobe
07-21-2011, 04:05 PM
I'm glad to see Zebo getting some love. I would actually put him over Duncan and Amar'e at this point, and I would put him right there with Bosh - after Dirk and Gasol.

MELO7NYK/DENfan
07-21-2011, 04:06 PM
Amare one of the best offensive pfs in the game and his defense is not the best but his help d food hes a good shot blocker and he can carry a team and has a good work ethic. one of the elite pfs in the game.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 04:08 PM
Swash,

I wouldn't use Wins Produced. It stinks. Admittedly, I haven't bothered learning how its calculated but the fact that all the APBR guys are against it is enough for me. Mostly due to its creator's snobbishness. And if I'm not mistaken, it ignores the whole usage vs. efficiency tradeoff. Plus it values rebounding way too much. Kevin Love is a great player but he's not the best player in the NBA. And his metric is trying to estimate a player's value, not find hidden gems (like maybe RAPM tries to do).

GoPacers33
07-21-2011, 04:10 PM
amare

Ebbs
07-21-2011, 04:11 PM
Dirk
Bosh/Pau
Pau/Bosh
Amare
Randolph
Griff
Love
Aldridge
KG
Duncan

Kashmir13579
07-21-2011, 04:11 PM
I had pointed that out earlier (about the high USG%, decreased shooting %'s) about Amare'. I think this explains quite easily why Amare' didn't post his 5th consecutive season with a TS% over 60%.

Yep, he took on a heavier role.

This isn't the best example because Pau's USG% has never been as high as Amar'es was this year, but if you take a look at Pau's career, he didn't put up these insane ORtgs until he got to the Lakers and his USG% bottomed out at around 20.0.

KaganRS
07-21-2011, 04:13 PM
Greg Monroe ... see ya on the list next year !!

Cano4prez
07-21-2011, 04:15 PM
Dirk
Bosh/Pau
Pau/Bosh
Amare
Randolph
Griff
Love
Aldridge
KG
Duncan

This.

Korman12
07-21-2011, 04:16 PM
This is actually pretty damn hard

Swashcuff
07-21-2011, 04:17 PM
Swash,

I wouldn't use Wins Produced. It stinks. Admittedly, I haven't bothered learning how its calculated but the fact that all the APBR guys are against it is enough for me. Mostly due to its creator's snobbishness. And if I'm not mistaken, it ignores the whole usage vs. efficiency tradeoff. Plus it values rebounding way too much. Kevin Love is a great player but he's not the best player in the NBA. And his metric is trying to estimate a player's value, not find hidden gems (like maybe RAPM tries to do).

Noted.

I also found it strange that Kevin Love would be at number one and Kris Humphries in the top 10. I hear your reasoning however. No wonder the two leaders in TRB% among PFs were in the top 10.

Catfish1314
07-21-2011, 04:18 PM
Dirk
Bosh/Pau
Pau/Bosh
Amare
Randolph
Griff
Love
Aldridge
KG
Duncan

I'd rather see Duncan on the center list at this point and Bosh and Pau aren't interchangeable :p, but I agree with the rest of that.

I guess we're crazy for thinking Bosh, a better rebounder and defender with comparable offensive gifts, doesn't belong ahead of Amar'e.

Cano4prez
07-21-2011, 04:22 PM
The only reason Amar'e wins here is because Knicks fans on PSD out-number everyone else.

Also this

Giraffes Rule
07-21-2011, 04:23 PM
Duncan should be in the center poll, for what it's worth. Even RC Buford said that he's playing center these days.

WadeKobe
07-21-2011, 04:25 PM
Dirk
Bosh/Pau
Pau/Bosh
Amare
Randolph
Griff
Love
Aldridge
KG
Duncan

I like this a lot, but I would tweak a couple of things.

Dirk
Pau
Bosh/Randolph
Randolph/Bosh
Amar'e
Griffin
Love
Aldridge
KG
Duncan

I would actually tend to give Randolph the edge over Bosh right now because he is much better defensively and on the glass, but I think Bosh will improve enough defensively to take the lead again this season.

I always thought Zebo was underrated, and arguably a better defender than anyone else on the list except KG and Duncan, so after showing he could put an 8 seed on his back and carry them offensively like he did... I'm sold.

Joshtd1
07-21-2011, 04:26 PM
Yea, Tim is basically the center now. He probably shouldn't be on the PF list anymore.

I still think Gasol is probably #2 right now. I think if you guys are going to list Amare that high up..Griffin IMO is probably right there or above him. Even though Bosh didn't play like his Toronto years, he is still pretty good. IMO I think Amare/Griffin/Bosh are pretty interchangable at 3-4-5.

The_Jamal
07-21-2011, 04:28 PM
Gasol is easily #2 on this list. One bad playoffs doesn't make him a crappy player, he's still the reason the Lakers went to 3 straight finals.

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 04:30 PM
I like this a lot, but I would tweak a couple of things.

Dirk
Pau
Bosh/Randolph
Randolph/Bosh
Amar'e
Griffin
Love
Aldridge
KG
Duncan

I would actually tend to give Randolph the edge over Bosh right now because he is much better defensively and on the glass, but I think Bosh will improve enough defensively to take the lead again this season.

I always thought Zebo was underrated, and arguably a better defender than anyone else on the list except KG and Duncan, so after showing he could put an 8 seed on his back and carry them offensively like he did... I'm sold.

Bosh is the better defender.

Swashcuff
07-21-2011, 04:31 PM
I like this a lot, but I would tweak a couple of things.

Dirk
Pau
Bosh/Randolph
Randolph/Bosh
Amar'e
Griffin
Love
Aldridge
KG
Duncan

I would actually tend to give Randolph the edge over Bosh right now because he is much better defensively and on the glass, but I think Bosh will improve enough defensively to take the lead again this season.

I always thought Zebo was underrated, and arguably a better defender than anyone else on the list except KG and Duncan, so after showing he could put an 8 seed on his back and carry them offensively like he did... I'm sold.

Did you just say Zach Randolph is much better than Chris Bosh defensively?

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't you a Miami fan? Did you not watch Bosh play defense last season? Did you watch Zach Randolph play D last season? No way Randolph is better defensively. If that was true Randolph would be top 3 no doubt.

Zebo is a HORRIBLE defender. What are you talking about even Josh Smith is better one on one than he is. Luis Scola with all his gambles and bone head defensive plays is better defensively, Aldridge is MUCH better defensively than Randolph.

Kashmir13579
07-21-2011, 04:34 PM
Did you just say Zach Randolph is much better than Chris Bosh defensively?

Correct me if I am wrong but aren't you a Miami fan? Did you not watch Bosh play defense last season? Did you watch Zach Randolph play D last season? No way Randolph is better defensively. If that was true Randolph would be top 3 no doubt.

Zebo is a HORRIBLE defender. What are you talking about even Josh Smith is better one on one than he is. Luis Scola with all his gambles and bone head defensive plays is better defensively, Aldridge is MUCH better defensively than Randolph.

Plus he's had 1 good season and it took him 10 years to do it. He's always been talented as hell... Its his attitude and work ethic thats the problem. Even just using this year as the focal point, I'd still have Pau, Amar'e, Bosh, and Love above him.

John Walls Era
07-21-2011, 04:42 PM
I voted Bosh as a joke vote since I thought everyone would go Gasol, but I didn't know 64 people would also joke vote Amare.

Hostetler
07-21-2011, 04:46 PM
Stoudemire

$GangGr33n$
07-21-2011, 04:47 PM
so on bosh/amare comparisons everyone always says bosh is better bit now amare is in first place to get 2nd best PF in the league and bosh isnt even top 3

John Walls Era
07-21-2011, 04:50 PM
so on bosh/amare comparisons everyone always says bosh is better bit now amare is in first place to get 2nd best PF in the league and bosh isnt even top 3

:laugh:

You know what they say: PSD is where official lists are made.

:rolleyes:

nycericanguy
07-21-2011, 04:58 PM
The only reason Amar'e wins here is because Knicks fans on PSD out-number everyone else.

I'd disagree, if that were the case Melo would have beaten out Durant and even given Lebron a run at #1.

I do think Amare is legitimately #2. You can make a case for Gasol, but Gasol was the #2 option in LA, and when he was the #1 in MEM he never put up seasons like Amare does year in and year out.

So its either you think Gasol really elevated his game when he went to LA, or playing on a good team alongside Kobe has really helped him.

I'd go with the latter, just like Pierce & Ray Allen have had great, incredibly efficient years since teaming up with the big 3/4 in BOS.

I mean really, if you were starting a team you take Amare hands down IMO. And if he were on LA instead of Gasol the Lakers would be more dangerous.

sep11ie
07-21-2011, 05:02 PM
I'm going all Chuck Hayes here.

Joshtd1
07-21-2011, 05:06 PM
I'd disagree, if that were the case Melo would have beaten out Durant and even given Lebron a run at #1.

I do think Amare is legitimately #2. You can make a case for Gasol, but Gasol was the #2 option in LA, and when he was the #1 in MEM he never put up seasons like Amare does year in and year out.

So its either you think Gasol really elevated his game when he went to LA, or playing on a good team alongside Kobe has really helped him.

I'd go with the latter, just like Pierce & Ray Allen have had great, incredibly efficient years since teaming up with the big 3/4 in BOS.

I mean really, if you were starting a team you take Amare hands down IMO. And if he were on LA instead of Gasol the Lakers would be more dangerous.

Not sure about that. Not sure how good Amare would be in that triangle offense. That and well Amare is pretty bad on D, worse then Gasol. Wouldn't have that pick and roll that much like he thrives on...

Kashmir13579
07-21-2011, 05:07 PM
I'd disagree, if that were the case Melo would have beaten out Durant and even given Lebron a run at #1.

I do think Amare is legitimately #2. You can make a case for Gasol, but Gasol was the #2 option in LA, and when he was the #1 in MEM he never put up seasons like Amare does year in and year out.

So its either you think Gasol really elevated his game when he went to LA, or playing on a good team alongside Kobe has really helped him.

I'd go with the latter, just like Pierce & Ray Allen have had great, incredibly efficient years since teaming up with the big 3/4 in BOS.

I want to agree with you, and i totally get your logic. I even made some similar points earlier in this thread. But for me, defense and rebounding have to weigh into this as well. AND YOU KNOW that Amar'e has to step it up in both of those categories.

I voted for Kevin Love :shrug:

Swashcuff
07-21-2011, 05:07 PM
I'm going all Chuck Hayes here.

Well he is better defensively than everyone other than Kevin Garnett among those left on the list. So :shrug:

nycericanguy
07-21-2011, 05:08 PM
Not sure about that. Not sure how good Amare would be in that triangle offense. That and well Amare is pretty bad on D, worse then Gasol. Wouldn't have that pick and roll that much like he thrives on...

Certainly Gasol is a better defender, but Amare would bring so much more to the table offensively. I can guarantee you he would not have disappeared in the playoffs like Gasol did last season.

Also Gasol does have the luxury of playing alongside Bynum, whereas Amare in NY and in PHO never had a legitimate big man, especially in NY where he had to play alongside Wilson Chandler a good deal of the time. Amare's defense would look alot better if he had Bynum and even Odom upfront helping him.

And LA won't have the triangle next season either.

nycericanguy
07-21-2011, 05:10 PM
I want to agree with you, and i totally get your logic. I even made some similar points earlier in this thread. But for me, defense and rebounding have to weigh into this as well. AND YOU KNOW that Amar'e has to step it up in both of those categories.

I voted for Kevin Love :shrug:

No doubt, but see my above post. I mean defense is important, but when you have an offensive force such as Amare and Dirk, to me that outweighs the fact that Gasol is a better defender than both.

Don't want to make excuses for Amare, but he has really never played with even a starting caliber center.

Jewelz0376
07-21-2011, 05:17 PM
I went with Amare... Coming from someone who watched every Laker game last season...the way Pau played post all star break and in the playoffs, still just rubs me the wrong way... W/o looking at the stats Pau might be better statistically, but I watched enough of the Knicks to know I'd rather have Amare than Pau...

Neither impress me on D...Pau used to be a decent defender, but towards the end of last year he was horrible... Pau rebs better, but offensively Amare is a legit #1 option imo...Pau is not

I might be basing too much of my decision on how Pau ended the season, but so be it...

IversonIsKrazy
07-21-2011, 05:26 PM
Why isn't Timmy D on the list? And I'd take Amar'e over Gasol even though he was injured and ineffective during the short playoff run

Joshtd1
07-21-2011, 05:27 PM
Certainly Gasol is a better defender, but Amare would bring so much more to the table offensively. I can guarantee you he would not have disappeared in the playoffs like Gasol did last season.

Also Gasol does have the luxury of playing alongside Bynum, whereas Amare in NY and in PHO never had a legitimate big man, especially in NY where he had to play alongside Wilson Chandler a good deal of the time. Amare's defense would look alot better if he had Bynum and even Odom upfront helping him.

And LA won't have the triangle next season either.

Gasol has also been able to play center when Bynum has gone down with injury, and it really doesn't effect him. IMO I think he is better at C anyway since there aren't too many offensive minded centers, and he can step out on the perimeter where most centers don't want to be.

I still disagree about bringing much more. They both can step out and hit a jumper. Amare is better with the pick and roll since he's more explosive, but Gasol is a much much better post player. I think he's a more skilled/fundamental offensive player tbh, and with his better defense is why I think he's better.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-21-2011, 05:30 PM
I got Pau here and I shall say why

Advanced of all the players figured to be in the running for the top 10 sorted by WS

Rk Player G GS MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48 FG% 3P% FT%
2 Pau Gasol 82 82 3037 23.3 .589 .530 10.3 20.5 15.6 15.1 0.8 3.3 9.8 21.8 123 103 10.0 4.7 14.7 0.232 .529 .333 .823
5 Kevin Love 73 73 2611 24.3 .593 .513 13.7 34.2 23.6 11.8 0.9 0.8 11.1 22.9 123 108 9.0 2.5 11.4 0.210 .470 .417 .850
6 LaMarcus Aldridge 81 81 3211 21.5 .549 .501 10.1 17.2 13.5 10.1 1.4 2.4 8.7 25.7 114 107 7.6 3.5 11.1 0.166 .500 .174 .791
7 Dirk Nowitzki 73 73 2504 23.4 .612 .545 2.4 20.8 12.0 14.2 0.8 1.4 9.1 28.2 118 105 7.8 3.3 11.1 0.213 .517 .393 .892
8 Zach Randolph 75 74 2724 22.6 .552 .507 14.2 26.0 20.1 10.2 1.2 0.7 10.0 25.0 115 105 6.8 3.7 10.5 0.185 .503 .186 .758
9 Chris Bosh 77 77 2795 19.4 .569 .499 6.4 20.0 13.6 8.9 1.1 1.4 9.8 23.5 115 103 6.1 4.2 10.3 0.177 .496 .240 .815
10 Lamar Odom 82 35 2639 19.4 .589 .568 7.8 22.2 15.2 15.5 0.9 1.8 12.2 19.7 118 103 6.1 4.0 10.1 0.184 .530 .382 .675
12 Blake Griffin 82 82 3112 21.9 .549 .508 10.2 26.9 18.6 18.7 1.0 1.1 11.7 27.3 111 107 6.5 3.4 9.8 0.152 .506 .292 .642
14 Elton Brand 81 81 2809 18.5 .553 .512 9.7 18.0 13.9 7.1 1.7 2.9 8.4 19.7 114 103 5.1 4.4 9.4 0.161 .512 .000 .780
15 Kevin Garnett 71 71 2220 20.6 .575 .529 4.9 28.7 17.5 13.5 2.3 2.0 11.1 22.3 110 95 3.4 5.6 9.0 0.194 .528 .200 .862
16 Amare Stoudemire 78 78 2870 22.7 .565 .505 7.8 17.6 12.7 13.2 1.2 3.8 12.5 30.9 109 108 5.4 2.6 8.0 0.134 .502 .435 .792
19 David West 70 70 2451 20.4 .558 .509 7.6 18.7 13.1 12.7 1.5 2.1 10.7 25.8 111 104 4.4 3.4 7.8 0.152 .508 .222 .807
20 Tim Duncan 76 76 2156 21.9 .537 .500 9.3 26.8 18.3 15.7 1.2 4.8 11.4 22.9 111 100 3.7 4.0 7.7 0.171 .500 .000 .716
21 Paul Millsap 76 76 2605 19.8 .578 .536 7.5 19.4 13.4 12.6 2.1 2.2 11.3 22.6 114 108 5.2 2.5 7.7 0.143 .531 .391 .757
22 Serge Ibaka 82 44 2216 17.7 .579 .543 11.7 20.8 16.4 1.6 0.7 6.5 9.2 15.7 119 104 4.3 3.2 7.6 0.164 .543 .000 .750
28 Josh Smith 77 77 2645 19.2 .540 .502 6.2 23.7 15.0 17.1 2.0 3.5 14.3 24.7 104 102 1.9 4.5 6.4 0.116 .477 .331 .725
34 David Lee 73 73 2634 17.8 .549 .508 9.1 21.9 15.4 14.0 1.4 0.9 13.4 21.2 111 110 4.1 1.9 6.0 0.110 .507 .333 .787
36 Carlos Boozer 59 59 1882 18.8 .542 .510 8.3 26.3 17.6 14.3 1.3 0.7 13.5 26.9 105 99 1.9 3.9 5.8 0.149 .510 .701
41 Luis Scola 74 74 2412 18.4 .538 .504 6.9 21.6 14.2 13.7 1.0 1.3 10.5 25.7 108 108 3.3 2.2 5.5 0.110 .504 .000 .738
42 Kris Humphries 74 44 2061 17.8 .555 .527 12.5 32.2 22.1 7.0 0.9 3.0 13.4 17.3 111 105 2.7 2.7 5.4 0.125 .527 .000 .665

SPM (Statistical +/-) of the player's figured to be in the running for the top 10

Player G Min OSPM DSPM SPM
Kevin Love 73 2611 5.33 0.05 5.37
Dirk Nowitzki 73 2504 4.93 -0.04 4.89
Pau Gasol 82 3037 3.23 0.65 3.88
Josh Smith 77 2645 0.43 3.08 3.51
Blake Griffin 82 3112 3.34 0.05 3.39
Lamar Odom 82 2639 2.12 1.07 3.19
Zach Randolph 75 2724 3.80 -0.66 3.14
Paul Millsap 76 2593 2.09 0.90 2.98
Carlos Boozer 59 1882 0.79 1.98 2.77
Tim Duncan 76 2156 0.24 2.02 2.26
L Aldridge 81 3211 2.96 -0.72 2.24
Elton Brand 81 2809 0.67 1.53 2.20
David West 70 2451 1.97 0.24 2.20
Chris Bosh 77 2795 1.47 0.60 2.07
Amare Stoud 78 2870 2.43 -0.88 1.54
Luis Scola 74 2412 0.92 -0.23 0.70
David Lee 73 2634 0.47 -0.53 -0.07
Serge Ibaka 82 2216 -1.40 1.27 -0.13

Pau is #1 in WS, WS/48, ORtg, #5 in PER and #3 in SPM. Some other stats.

He was #1 among all PFs last season in EWA (Estimated Wins Added) with is is simply converting PER into how many wins you added for your team (Thanks to patsSOXknicks for all the incredible posts in the stats forum) with 17.9 EWA.

In terms of WARP2 (a stat which Chronz covets as one of the best there its to ascetain a player's worth) he was ranked #2 among all PFs last season with Kevin Love at #1.

In terms of Wins Produced Pau was ranked #3 among all PFs (Kevin Love at 1 and Zach Randolph at 2) with 16.3 Wins Produced.

And lastly in terms of eWins he was again ranked #2 among all PFs and 8th in terms of ewins/484 (e484).

Player eWins e484
Griffin,Blake 13.5 2.11
Gasol,Pau 12.8 2.04
Love,Kevin 12.1 2.23
Aldridge,Lamarcu 12.0 1.81
Randolph,Zach 11.9 2.11
Nowitzki,Dirk 11.8 2.28
Stoudemire,Amare 11.4 1.93
Bosh,Chris 9.8 1.69
Garnett,Kevin 9.6 2.09
Smith,Josh 9.5 1.74
Duncan,Tim 9.2 2.07
West,David 9.1 1.79
Millsap,Paul 8.8 1.63
Odom,Lamar 8.8 1.61
Scola,Luis 8.4 1.69
Brand,Elton 8.3 1.43
Boozer,Carlos 8.2 2.10
Lee,David 7.4 1.36

If you want to speak of statistics there is no way in which Pau could fall to 3 based on his production last season.

If you guys wanna know where I took all this info from you can check out http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=627188

Hopefully this helps guys who are still torn in their rankings.

and knicks homers still vote for amare:speechless:

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-21-2011, 05:32 PM
if heat had griffin instead of bosh, they would have swept everyone in the playoffs
just sayin'

bosh>griffin

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 05:32 PM
Why isn't Timmy D on the list? And I'd take Amar'e over Gasol even though he was injured and ineffective during the short playoff run

Gotta make room for David West, lol. Agree with your top rappers too for the most part but man where is Big L?

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-21-2011, 05:33 PM
Dirk
Bosh/Pau
Pau/Bosh
Amare
Randolph
Griff
Love
Aldridge
KG
Duncan

change love and griffin------>:hi5:

Cano4prez
07-21-2011, 05:35 PM
Haha PSD is a joke

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-21-2011, 05:45 PM
Certainly Gasol is a better defender, but Amare would bring so much more to the table offensively. I can guarantee you he would not have disappeared in the playoffs like Gasol did last season.

Also Gasol does have the luxury of playing alongside Bynum, whereas Amare in NY and in PHO never had a legitimate big man, especially in NY where he had to play alongside Wilson Chandler a good deal of the time. Amare's defense would look alot better if he had Bynum and even Odom upfront helping him.

And LA won't have the triangle next season either.

wut:confused:

nycericanguy
07-21-2011, 05:53 PM
wut:confused:

Say what you want about defense, but offensively Amare is the biggest offensive force of any big man.

Gasol as the #1 option on a bad team in MEM barely scratched 20ppg and was mostly an 18ppg guy.

Amare has had several 25ppg+ seasons as the #1 option on good to elite teams. Even his worst 20.4ppg season matches Gasol's best scoring season.

VCaintdead17
07-21-2011, 06:13 PM
Say what you want about defense, but offensively Amare is the biggest offensive force of any big man.

Gasol as the #1 option on a bad team in MEM barely scratched 20ppg and was mostly an 18ppg guy.

Amare has had several 25ppg+ seasons as the #1 option on good to elite teams. Even his worst 20.4ppg season matches Gasol's best scoring season.

Gasol also lead those bad Memphis teams to 50+ wins

Swashcuff
07-21-2011, 06:15 PM
Gasol also lead those bad Memphis teams to 50+ wins

In a STACKED West Conference with Jason Williams as his 2nd best player. Scoring plenty points is not all there is to being a better offensive player.

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 06:17 PM
Say what you want about defense, but offensively Amare is the biggest offensive force of any big man.

Gasol as the #1 option on a bad team in MEM barely scratched 20ppg and was mostly an 18ppg guy.

Amare has had several 25ppg+ seasons as the #1 option on good to elite teams. Even his worst 20.4ppg season matches Gasol's best scoring season.

i wouldn't call the knicks good, they were the 15th best team in the NBA. With the Suns. it was MVP's team and he scored so much because of the pace they played at. When terry Porter took over for a bit and Shaq was there, Amare's numbers were down.

nycericanguy
07-21-2011, 06:20 PM
Gasol also lead those bad Memphis teams to 50+ wins

um what? MEM won 50 with Gasol ONCE, never "50+", and during his tenure there they were a pretty bad team overall.

2001 - 23 wins
2002 - 28 wins
2003 - 50
2004 - 45
2005 - 49
2006 - 22
2007 - 22 (the year he was traded)

Not counting 2007 because he was traded that year, thats an average of 36 wins per season.

naps
07-21-2011, 06:21 PM
lol @ the poll. Only if Amare knew about this forum and saw this poll, he would know what New York is all about.

nycericanguy
07-21-2011, 06:22 PM
i wouldn't call the knicks good, they were the 15th best team in the NBA. With the Suns. it was MVP's team and he scored so much because of the pace they played at. When terry Porter took over for a bit and Shaq was there, Amare's numbers were down.

i wasnt talking about just last season, but he did carry NY to a 16-9 start, they fell off amist all the trade rumors and distractions, but they were a good team, not elite, but good.

Nash may have been the leader, but Amare was the #1 option. And really the pace?...lol, how many points do you think that added to his average? MAYBE 2 at best? So maybe he;s "only" a 23ppg scorer.

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 06:27 PM
i wasnt talking about just last season, but he did carry NY to a 16-9 start, they fell off amist all the trade rumors and distractions, but they were a good team, not elite, but good.

Nash may have been the leader, but Amare was the #1 option. And really the pace?...lol, how many points do you think that added to his average? MAYBE 2 at best? So maybe he;s "only" a 23ppg scorer.

Just last season Amare shot the ball 5 more times a game than Gasol.

MJ-BULLS
07-21-2011, 06:28 PM
Pau Gasol.

PocketKings
07-21-2011, 06:37 PM
Hmm...

This is very interesting...

Comparing the career numbers of Bosh, Gasol, and Amare...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=boshch01&y1=2011&p2=gasolpa01&y2=2011&p3=stoudam01&y3=2011

unleashthebeast
07-21-2011, 06:40 PM
Say what you want about defense, but offensively Amare is the biggest offensive force of any big man.

Gasol as the #1 option on a bad team in MEM barely scratched 20ppg and was mostly an 18ppg guy.

Amare has had several 25ppg+ seasons as the #1 option on good to elite teams. Even his worst 20.4ppg season matches Gasol's best scoring season.

Amare also has played in fast paced systems his whole career, where he puts up way more shots than gasol ever has. I'm sorry but this poll is a complete joke, there is no chance amare can be considered a better player than gasol. And it seems that the PF rankings are only going to get worse, if people believe BG is actually better than bosh :laugh2:

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 06:42 PM
Amare also has played in fast paced systems his whole career, where he puts up way more shots than gasol ever has. I'm sorry but this poll is a complete joke, there is no chance amare can be considered a better player than gasol. And it seems that the PF rankings are only going to get worse, if people believe BG is actually better than bosh :laugh2:

Gasol isn't athletic enough to play in a fast paced system, so if your arguing Gasol would put up big numbers that's a falacy. Considering he would probably be worse because he wouldn't get up and down the court.

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 06:47 PM
Gasol isn't athletic enough to play in a fast paced system, so if your arguing Gasol would put up big numbers that's a falacy. Considering he would probably be worse because he wouldn't get up and down the court.

Gasol can play in a fast paces system. He can run up and down the court just fine. Guys like Gortat played fine in a fast paced system. Im pretty sure the system they run in NY under Mike D would work better with Melo and Gasol than id does with Melo and Amare.

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 06:49 PM
Gasol can play in a fast paces system. He can run up and down the court just fine. Guys like Gortat played fine in a fast paced system. Im pretty sure the system they run in NY under Mike D would work better with Melo and Gasol than id does with Melo and Amare.

ahahahahahahahaha.....(clears throat)......hahahahahahaha

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 06:51 PM
Gasol can play in a fast paces system. He can run up and down the court just fine. Guys like Gortat played fine in a fast paced system. Im pretty sure the system they run in NY under Mike D would work better with Melo and Gasol than id does with Melo and Amare.

ahahahahahahahaha.....(clears throat)......hahahahahahaha

You do know Gasol has a way better back to the basket game and draws a double team on the block, this opens up 3 point shooters or cutters. Amare relies on the face up game or drive.

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 06:55 PM
[QUOTE=strahan92osi72;18613644]

You do know Gasol has a way better back to the basket game and draws a double team on the block, this opens up 3 point shooters or cutters. Amare relies on the face up game or drive.

What's funny is either you really believe that, or you know it's false and if Amare became a Laker and Gasol became a Knick you would change your tune very quickly.

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 06:56 PM
[QUOTE=Gibby23;18613665]

What's funny is either you really believe that, or you know it's false and if Amare became a Laker and Gasol became a Knick you would change your tune very quickly.

There is no question that Gasol has a better back to the basket game and better post moves than Amare. gasol is also a better passer and rebounder.

jp611
07-21-2011, 07:09 PM
Well Amare shouldnt have won this, another travesty :pity:

toovey107
07-21-2011, 07:19 PM
Give me Pau.

John Walls Era
07-21-2011, 07:26 PM
LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNGUYpLCSbU)

Now I see what they were chanting about.

Don't get too mad, Im jk.

Kashmir13579
07-21-2011, 07:37 PM
LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNGUYpLCSbU)

Now I see what they were chanting about.

Don't get too mad, Im jk.

pffffft. The Garden faithful has been known to chant "Paul Pierce Sucks" only seconds before he drills the game winner.

$GangGr33n$
07-21-2011, 07:37 PM
:laugh:

You know what they say: PSD is where official lists are made.

:rolleyes:

im not saying on sports shows or anything like that im saying people on PSD say Bosh is better but now Amare is the 2nd best in the league here

Slimsim
07-21-2011, 07:46 PM
Amare Because he proved he didn't need nash

naps
07-21-2011, 07:48 PM
If Amare wasn't in New York he wouldn't sniff top 3/4.

naps
07-21-2011, 07:50 PM
Amare Because he proved he didn't need nash

Proved what? That he can win a championship or take his team deep into the playoffs? He didn't prove any ****! There are 6/7 PF who would put up his numbers or even better if they played under D'Antonie.

Hawkeye15
07-21-2011, 07:52 PM
Pau is still the best here. But the overwhelming Knick fan base, along with the short term memory that is the average sports fan, will only remember Pau's meltdown against Dallas.

Over the course of the season, and even thru round 1 (Amare didn't get past that), Pau was better.

heattiltheend94
07-21-2011, 07:58 PM
1. Dirk
2. GAsol
3. Stoudemire
4. RAndolph
5. Aldridge
6. Bosh
7. Smith
8. Love
9. Griffin
10. Garnett

Khalifa21
07-21-2011, 08:08 PM
Assuming Amar'e wins this, the rest of the top 10 looks like this for me:

3. Pau Gasol
4. Blake Griffin
5. Kevin Love
6. Chris Bosh
7. LaMarcus Aldridge
8. Zach Randolph
9. Kevin Garnett
10. Carlos Boozer

douglas
07-21-2011, 08:26 PM
Amar'e

tredigs
07-21-2011, 08:52 PM
Amare's leading this? Interesting. Similar impact, but I'd say Griffin is actually already better than Amare, and the void will widen fairly significantly next season. Neither played much D on the other, but what did Blake put up his first game against the Knicks/Amare? 45/15/8? They had no answer.

I'd go Dirk > Pau > Randolph > Aldridge > Griffin > Love > Amare/Bosh

PF's are tough. They're all damn close right now.

Chacarron
07-21-2011, 08:54 PM
Amare is highly overrated in here.

strahan92osi72
07-21-2011, 09:04 PM
This is getting more lopsided as time goes on, number three should come soon.

Khalifa21
07-21-2011, 09:21 PM
Amare's leading this? Interesting. Similar impact, but I'd say Griffin is actually already better than Amare, and the void will widen fairly significantly next season. Neither played much D on the other, but what did Blake put up his first game against the Knicks/Amare? 45/15/8? They had no answer.

I'd go Dirk > Pau > Randolph > Aldridge > Griffin > Love > Amare/Bosh

PF's are tough. They're all damn close right now.

You make a fair point but don't disregard the fact that Amar'e had 39 and 11 in that game whilst shooting the exact same percentage from the field (14-24) as Blake. They didn't have much of an answer for him either.

I see Blake making the jump into the top 10 players next season and I personally think there will be a legit argument for him as the best PF in the league. When we consider the plethora of talented PF's in the NBA, i'd have to say it's the strongest position in the league just edging PG's...

Khalifa21
07-21-2011, 09:23 PM
#3 should be quick... Gasol in a land slide.

#4 is where it gets really interesting. I'll be going with Blake there until someone presents a convincing argument otherwise.

tredigs
07-21-2011, 09:24 PM
You make a fair point but don't disregard the fact that Amar'e had 39 and 11 in that game whilst shooting the exact same percentage from the field (14-24) as Blake. They didn't have much of an answer for him either.

I see Blake making the jump into the top 10 players next season and I personally think there will be a legit argument for him as the best PF in the league. When we consider the plethora of talented PF's in the NBA, i'd have to say it's the strongest position in the league just edging PG's...

No arguments with any of that.

tredigs
07-21-2011, 09:26 PM
#3 should be quick... Gasol in a land slide.

#4 is where it gets really interesting. I'll be going with Blake there until someone presents a convincing argument otherwise.

I could make a fairly convincing argument for Randolph, Aldridge and Love over BG- but I prefer Blake (and being ahead of the curve) - and will be doing this same. So that's on somebody else.

Slimsim
07-21-2011, 09:37 PM
Knicks players get a lot of Hate on PSD so I'm surprise to see amare in the lead.

CHANGO
07-21-2011, 09:40 PM
Gasol...

Swashcuff
07-21-2011, 09:44 PM
Knicks players get a lot of Hate on PSD so I'm surprise to see amare in the lead.

Could you please give us some examples where Knicks players have hated on here on PSD solely because they are Knicks.

Khalifa21
07-21-2011, 09:45 PM
I could make a fairly convincing argument for Randolph, Aldridge and Love over BG- but I prefer Blake (and being ahead of the curve) - and will be doing this same. So that's on somebody else.

I'm still not massively sold on Z-Bo... I feel like he had a very good year, and led his team to a great playoff series victory and a lot deeper into the playoffs then many thought possible, but I still would choose quite a few guys over him. Can't quite put my finger on why... Maybe it's because i've witnessed him at his worst as a Knicks fan?

I've LOVED Aldridge since he was drafted. I love his game and style of play. I honestly think he's possibly the most rounded PF in the league in terms of offensive skillset and defensive ability. He's in my top 5 favorite players in the league, so if I was voting with my heart i'd go with him next.

I think out of the players left (assuming Gasol goes #3), BG has the biggest impact and with his potential to expand his game after a good summer of working out (adding a more consistent jumpshot, becoming a more accomplished post defender etc.), i'd have to go with him at #4.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 09:47 PM
Knicks players get a lot of Hate on PSD so I'm surprise to see amare in the lead.

They get "hate" because a large majority of Knicks fans drastically overrate their own players. Thats what happens. When there's homers, there's hate. It's a balancing act.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 09:49 PM
I could make a fairly convincing argument for Randolph, Aldridge and Love over BG- but I prefer Blake (and being ahead of the curve) - and will be doing this same. So that's on somebody else.

If you use Dave Berri's Wins Produced, you could argue Kevin Love is the best player in the NBA. Of course, Berri is also a snobbish math professor who has no idea what he's talking about.

lol, yeah i know, this isn't relevant to anything.

Slimsim
07-21-2011, 10:33 PM
Could you please give us some examples where Knicks players have hated on here on PSD solely because they are Knicks.

Everyone like to Bring all these advance Stats when regarding melo/Amare. And because they aren't great defenders. No one mention How Amare Made us relevant And played at a mvp lvl earlier in the season Or the fact that Without Amare the suns went from the WC finals to a lottery team.

EaglePride615
07-21-2011, 10:38 PM
after the playoffs i dont have a clue how pau can get that many votes for the second best PF in the nba... smh

Swashcuff
07-21-2011, 10:45 PM
Everyone like to Bring all these advance Stats when regarding melo/Amare. And because they aren't great defenders. No one mention How Amare Made us relevant And played at a mvp lvl earlier in the season Or the fact that Without Amare the suns went from the WC finals to a lottery team.

:confused:

That was mentioned in this very thread by none Knicks fans? Go back a couple pages you'll see.

Even so that does not mean that they are "hating" on him. People bring up advanced stats in damn near argument they aren't just bringing them up when talking about Knicks players bro. As for the Suns that's what happens when you lose a perennial all star who was your #1 option for the greater part of the last 8 seasons and don't have an effective system in place.

RipCity32
07-21-2011, 11:00 PM
Honestly I think it's already Griffin.

Catfish1314
07-21-2011, 11:29 PM
#3 should be quick... Gasol in a land slide.

#4 is where it gets really interesting. I'll be going with Blake there until someone presents a convincing argument otherwise.

#2 should have been Gasol in a landslide.


after the playoffs i dont have a clue how pau can get that many votes for the second best PF in the nba... smh

Considering Stoudemire's incompetence defensively and his inexcusable rebounding numbers for someone with his physical gifts, it's a wonder he got this many votes for the #2 spot.

The next four should go Pau, Bosh, Randolph IMO. One or two years of finally taking advantage of his potential shouldn't separate Randolph from Bosh, who has been a major offensive force at his position for the last five years or so.

John Walls Era
07-21-2011, 11:32 PM
Blake Griffin for 3. Might as well :shrug:. Then Johan Petro for 4.

John Walls Era
07-21-2011, 11:37 PM
I'm still not massively sold on Z-Bo... I feel like he had a very good year, and led his team to a great playoff series victory and a lot deeper into the playoffs then many thought possible, but I still would choose quite a few guys over him. Can't quite put my finger on why... Maybe it's because i've witnessed him at his worst as a Knicks fan?

I've LOVED Aldridge since he was drafted. I love his game and style of play. I honestly think he's possibly the most rounded PF in the league in terms of offensive skillset and defensive ability. He's in my top 5 favorite players in the league, so if I was voting with my heart i'd go with him next.

I think out of the players left (assuming Gasol goes #3), BG has the biggest impact and with his potential to expand his game after a good summer of working out (adding a more consistent jumpshot, becoming a more accomplished post defender etc.), i'd have to go with him at #4.

Bold part actually made sense. I never trust players in contract years.

I dunno why you like Aldridge when hes a Bosh lite though: LINK (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=aldrila01&y1=2011&p4=boshch01&y4=2011). His D is bad and his rebounder is horrific (but then again Portland's rebounding as a team is excellent).