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JordansBulls
07-20-2011, 06:55 PM
RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.
NO POSTING in your FORUM, VOTE for this GUY. We had problems last time with it and NO POSTING in someone Else's Forum to VOTE for a certain player.


Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.


Voting for #11 has concluded and PSD's Official #11 NBA Player of all time is....

Oscar Robertson



Top 5 Voters

Oscar Robertson = 74 votes
Jerry West = 17 votes
Karl Malone = 16 votes
Charles Barkley = 12 votes
Moses Malone = 12 votes



The List:
The List Thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635088)

The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)
10. Tim Duncan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635092)
11. Oscar Robertson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635506)



NOTE: There are already 30 poll options and can't add more than 30. So keep the nominations coming and around player #15, we can add in 5 new guys.


Voting will now begin for the #12 NBA Player All Time

Bruno
07-20-2011, 06:57 PM
Moses Malone. Nobody left touches his combination of stastical dominance, longevity, accolades and team championships.

I voted for him last thread, will continue to do so until he is selected.

JordansBulls
07-20-2011, 07:03 PM
This is Moses Malone for me. The other guys ahead of him that have 3+ MVP's are already taken. Not to mention was on one of the greatest teams ever in the 1983 Sixers and won Finals MVP and was 1st in WS Per 48 minutes in the season and playoffs, 1st in Win Shares in the season and playoffs and 1st in PER in the season and playoffs.

Th£~GamÄ
07-20-2011, 07:07 PM
Between Barkley or west I chose "Th£ LogO"

GoPacers33
07-20-2011, 07:10 PM
Charles Barkely

PatsSoxKnicks
07-20-2011, 07:44 PM
Maybe Dirk?? :speechless:

Didn't vote for him though (and probably won't) and am going to hold off on voting.

Might sound crazy but his peak numbers are right up there with the best of them. He doesn't have the longevity but he has been in the league 13 years, which is about the length of your average HOFers career. Offensively, he's got an unstoppable game. Stick him in any era and no one would stop him. However, does all of this make up for below average D at the beginning of his career and later above average D but never great D? This past championship with a nothing spectacular surrounding cast helps his case. As does a league MVP and Finals MVP.

Also think Robinson should get a look here. He dominated in the regular season- led the league in PER 3 years in a row, DRtg 5 times, Offensive Win Shares 2 times, Defensive Win Shares 3 times, WS 2 times, WS/48 5 times, and for his career, he's 2nd active in WS/48 in the regular season, 8th overall, 4th in PER, 9th in defensive win shares, 6th in DRtg. In addition, he's got an MVP and DPOY as well as being a 2 time champion, in which the 1st one, he played a pivotal role alongside Duncan.

He also lost 2 years to the Navy in which I'm sure he would've posted great numbers.

Edit: I voted for Robinson. I know he won't win here and I'm not necessarily sure whether he should be ahead of Moses but he's got an excellent prime, an MVP and he did finally get 2 rings, even if it was as 2nd fiddle.

Cavs_Fan24
07-20-2011, 07:55 PM
Im torn between Karl Malone and Moses Malone... Moses has the ring, that takes my vote.

Khalifa21
07-20-2011, 08:10 PM
I went with Chuck before but i'm gonna switch it up and go with Moses here.

Bruno
07-20-2011, 08:30 PM
This might piss off some of the older fans but I'm starting to get ready to build a case for KG. Not quite yet, but soon. I might take him over Malone or Barkley :shrug:

haggis
07-20-2011, 08:34 PM
This Guy. (http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/03/05/moses460.jpg)

Bruno
07-20-2011, 08:35 PM
^Is that Charlton Heston?? :laugh2:

kozelkid
07-20-2011, 08:58 PM
This might piss off some of the older fans but I'm starting to get ready to build a case for KG. Not quite yet, but soon. I might take him over Malone or Barkley :shrug:

I was actually considering making a case for him at 11 (ahead of Barkley) until I realized how much his numbers decrease in the playoffs. In his defense, however, defense doesn't translate to most overall stats and that is something you can certainly give KG a case at being one of the best of all time.

haggis
07-20-2011, 09:04 PM
^Is that Charlton Heston?? :laugh2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvkQqeDz8DY&feature=player_detailpage#t=54s

PatsSoxKnicks
07-20-2011, 09:05 PM
This might piss off some of the older fans but I'm starting to get ready to build a case for KG. Not quite yet, but soon. I might take him over Malone or Barkley :shrug:

His playoff numbers are not that great. Even his best playoff run (500+ mins) trails others. And his decline from regular season to postseason outweighs most other all-time greats.


I was actually considering making a case for him at 11 (ahead of Barkley) until I realized how much his numbers decrease in the playoffs. In his defense, however, defense doesn't translate to most overall stats and that is something you can certainly give KG a case at being one of the best of all time.

That's a good point. I'm sure his defensive intensity remained the same, so how much do you knock him for decreased offense? Especially considering Minny needed his offense. At the same time, his teams were weak and thats probably why he saw such a sharp decline in offense.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-20-2011, 09:32 PM
The logo.

Lake_Show2416
07-20-2011, 09:37 PM
the face of the league, Jerry West

MTar786
07-20-2011, 09:42 PM
gotta be moses malone and then possibly jerry west.

btw. I wouldnt understand or even see reason if karl malone and charles barkley get voted in before kg. Kg's career is almost over.. its not like he is still new in the nba. And he is/was CLEARLY the better player between the 3.Maybe you can debate karls career point output or charles playoff performances (which never translated into a title) but even then kg had his own great playoff moments and ALSO got a ring to show for it

malone 0-3 in the finals
charles 0-1
KG 1-1

Raps18-19 Champ
07-21-2011, 01:31 AM
It has to be Moses Malone here.

Pure Awesome.

Korman12
07-21-2011, 01:51 AM
Moses or Jerry here. I went with Moses.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 02:48 AM
Moses Malone's Finals numbers in the 82-83 season:
Game 1: 27 points, 18 rebounds
Game 2: 24 points, 12 rebounds
Game 3: 28 points, 19 rebounds, 6 assists
Game 4: 24 points, 23 rebounds

Found this on Wikipedia. I'm sure if you google it, you can find his overall numbers though.

Chacarron
07-21-2011, 03:21 AM
Moses Malone.

Lake_Show2416
07-21-2011, 04:40 AM
Moses Malone = Stat Padding

pebloemer
07-21-2011, 08:08 AM
I'm sure Moses and West are great votes, but I elected to go with someone I've actually seen play. I picked the Admiral here. I know he won't win, but voting anyone else would be a completely blind vote for me.

mfb_lt1birdman
07-21-2011, 08:32 AM
Jerry West for me. I admit this is kind of a blind vote just based on reading up on this guy, but he put up some ridiculous scoring numbers in his day. Many great playoff/finals performances too. Only winning 1 time in 9 finals appearances could be used as a knock against him, but it seemed he or someone else always got bit by the injury bug. He generally put up huge numbers though when he played regardless so its hard to fault him. Just making it 9 times and winning one puts him above Barkely and Malone for me.

To be so dominant as a guard shows that he had an amazing skill set and shot which supports his reputation. Tough defender to. He gets my vote.

Mile High Champ
07-21-2011, 09:02 AM
Went with Karl Malone last time and I am going with him again here. What he did throughout his whole career was simply amazing. The longevity he had and the streak of great seasons is better than anyone else on this list.

bootsy
07-21-2011, 10:03 AM
This is tough. I went with The Mailman but my heart is def for Moses. He brought my favorite team it's last title so I am glad he is leading. I went with The Mailman because he is the 2nd greatest PF, while Moses is probably a top 5 center. Again I am glad Moses is leading in the poll so far.

UKblazers
07-21-2011, 10:54 AM
The admiral

Gibby23
07-21-2011, 11:28 AM
Im going Elgin Baylor here.

mttwlsn16
07-21-2011, 11:32 AM
mailman

GhostfaceDrilla
07-21-2011, 11:42 AM
Jerry West. And for people arguing Garnett should be mentioned here, Dirk needs to be mentioned as well. Dirk is better in the playoffs than Garnett and while Garnett got a ring with a "superteam" as people said, Dirk got it as the only star on his team. Dirk should be top 20.

todu82
07-21-2011, 11:46 AM
Karl Malone

NYKalltheway
07-21-2011, 12:25 PM
thank God the Malones are not underrated this time :)

Lakersfan2483
07-21-2011, 01:49 PM
Moses Malone. He has the numbers, the longevity, championships, and the accolades. He's right behind guys like Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Wilt and Hakeem in terms of ranking all time big men.

Antipod
07-21-2011, 01:58 PM
Karl Malone

Bruno
07-21-2011, 03:18 PM
His playoff numbers are not that great. Even his best playoff run (500+ mins) trails others. And his decline from regular season to postseason outweighs most other all-time greats.

All true. His TS% in the playoffs is also low. His elite status as an defender makes that a bit more forgivable, in my book. We know his ability of defense isn't accounted for in most stats. I think an argument can be made for KG as top 15.

DR_1
07-21-2011, 03:51 PM
Karl Malone - 2nd overall in NBA scoring. Nobody left can top that.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-21-2011, 04:01 PM
Karl Malone - 2nd overall in NBA scoring. Nobody left can top that.

What about titles and Finals MVPs?

NYKalltheway
07-21-2011, 04:15 PM
What about titles and Finals MVPs?

What about them? Do you measure everything by accolades?

WadeKobe
07-21-2011, 04:16 PM
The logo.

A long, long, long, long, long time ago. The fact that he's not top 10 makes this whole thing a joke.

JordansBulls
07-21-2011, 04:52 PM
A long, long, long, long, long time ago. The fact that he's not top 10 makes this whole thing a joke.

Who does West have a case over in the top 10?

tredigs
07-21-2011, 04:58 PM
A long, long, long, long, long time ago. The fact that he's not top 10 makes this whole thing a joke.

So that's like... top 5-8? I don't think he has ANY business in that realm, but I'd like to hear the argument...?

Joshtd1
07-21-2011, 05:55 PM
So that's like... top 5-8? I don't think he has ANY business in that realm, but I'd like to hear the argument...?

You don't think he is worthy of that 8 spot where Kobe is?

BlitzBlud4
07-21-2011, 06:36 PM
Malone

tredigs
07-21-2011, 06:49 PM
You don't think he is worthy of that 8 spot where Kobe is?

Nah, I don't so. I don't even think Kobe deserves that spot, but it's very fair to have him over West at this point (I can go into it deeper once I'm home from work). But, is there even a great argument that West was the clear #1 on his own team throughout his career? Between Elgin Baylor and later Wilt, it's a tough one to make.

The 9 finals is both a blessing and a curse for his legacy. Sure they made it there, which is impressive (and no taking away from their gaudy competition), but we have to consider just how few teams were in the league and how stacked a team with West + Baylor or Wilt is. For "Mr. Clutch" to only pull out 1 of 9 is underwhelming any way we want to cut it.

So yeah, let's first make the case that West was definitely the best on his team, then we can talk about top 10 ever.

Joshtd1
07-21-2011, 06:59 PM
Nah, I don't so. I don't even think Kobe deserves that spot, but it's very fair to have him over West at this point (I can go into it deeper once I'm home from work). But, is there even a great argument that West was the clear #1 on his own team throughout his career? Between Elgin Baylor and later Wilt, it's a tough one to make.

The 9 finals is both a blessing and a curse for his legacy. Sure they made it there, which is impressive (and no taking away from their gaudy competition), but we have to consider just how few teams were in the league and how stacked a team with West + Baylor or Wilt is. For "Mr. Clutch" to only pull out 1 of 9 is underwhelming any way we want to cut it.

So yeah, let's first make the case that West was definitely the best on his team, then we can talk about top 10 ever.

I'm not disagreeing that he shouldn't be top 5-8, I was just trying to make the point that Kobe doesn't belong there, and IMHO I think if Kobe was voted there, West could have been as well.

With Wilt..I really don't think Wilt was there #1 guy when he wen't to LA. I thought he was at the point where he just wanted to focus on rebounding and defense since a lot of people thought that he was just nothing but offense.

Do you think Baylor was the better player between the two?

Bruno
07-21-2011, 07:10 PM
Who does West have a case over in the top 10?

When equally valuing statistical dominace, longevity, accolades, and championships- nobody.

I'm thinkin' about voting West at #13 once Moses is off the board. Not sure yet.

KnicksorBust
07-21-2011, 08:35 PM
Nice to finally have time to pop in on this thread.

Moses is a no brainer here. The "fo, fo, fo" season alone makes him worthy but the MVPs and stats back it up nicely.

I'm actually happy that it looks like Jerry West and Karl Malone are next. This list is looking pretty solid so far.

Cousy and Baylor are the only two I'm worried about.

tredigs
07-21-2011, 08:36 PM
I'm not disagreeing that he shouldn't be top 5-8, I was just trying to make the point that Kobe doesn't belong there, and IMHO I think if Kobe was voted there, West could have been as well.

With Wilt..I really don't think Wilt was there #1 guy when he wen't to LA. I thought he was at the point where he just wanted to focus on rebounding and defense since a lot of people thought that he was just nothing but offense.

Do you think Baylor was the better player between the two?

Prime Baylor was probably better than West, he'd lead the team in scoring+assists+rebounding - and some of his playoff performances were flat out legendary. I think he put up close to 70 points and 20+ boards in a decisive finals game versus Russell's Celtics one year (Celtics still managed to win the series, but Baylor was an icon). I also think Jerry really looked up to him as a player, actually. He's made mention of it in some interviews.

But yeah, Elgin came into the league and was All NBA 1st team his entire first decade from Rookie Season on. The other mainstays were Wilt/Russel, Bob Petit, West and Oscar. All legends

GREATNESS ONE
07-21-2011, 09:01 PM
thank God the Malones are not underrated this time :)

Thank God you're not delusional all the time :clap:

PatsSoxKnicks
07-21-2011, 10:01 PM
If you use Win Shares (which I suppose you could argue its accuracy for the 60s since turnovers aren't kept, along with other stats), West's prime isn't that great compared to some of the other all-time greats. Same goes for PER.

NBAfan4life
07-21-2011, 10:55 PM
I'm not disagreeing that he shouldn't be top 5-8, I was just trying to make the point that Kobe doesn't belong there, and IMHO I think if Kobe was voted there, West could have been as well.

With Wilt..I really don't think Wilt was there #1 guy when he wen't to LA. I thought he was at the point where he just wanted to focus on rebounding and defense since a lot of people thought that he was just nothing but offense.

Do you think Baylor was the better player between the two?

Hi Mr Mod

RULES:
There will be a zero tolerance, one strike policy. If ANY poster is interrupting any of the threads in a negative way, OR causing any problems they're ability to vote will be taken away.

He has been voted in at that spot get over it. Most posters have him going there if not falling to 11 at the latest besides maybe a very select few. Let it go and stop baiting Kobe fans.

chong2204
07-21-2011, 11:09 PM
Went with Karl Malone...I think the dude is really underrated on here..

Chronz
07-22-2011, 12:02 AM
If you use Win Shares (which I suppose you could argue its accuracy for the 60s since turnovers aren't kept, along with other stats), West's prime isn't that great compared to some of the other all-time greats. Same goes for PER.
West was a legendary steals and blocks guy for his size. The lack of a 3pt shot hurt his efficiency as well. Its one of the problems I run into, deciding what to make of shooting specialists Pre-3PT Era. Is Pistol Pete a cancerous showboat who couldnt win, or simply ahead of his time and should be excused for mastering a shot that wouldnt lead to efficient results.

Chronz
07-22-2011, 12:07 AM
Prime Baylor was probably better than West, he'd lead the team in scoring+assists+rebounding - and some of his playoff performances were flat out legendary. I think he put up close to 70 points and 20+ boards in a decisive finals game versus Russell's Celtics one year (Celtics still managed to win the series, but Baylor was an icon). I also think Jerry really looked up to him as a player, actually. He's made mention of it in some interviews.

But yeah, Elgin came into the league and was All NBA 1st team his entire first decade from Rookie Season on. The other mainstays were Wilt/Russel, Bob Petit, West and Oscar. All legends
It may be hard choosing between their peaks (West is no slouch), but choosing between their careers is easy

Swashcuff
07-22-2011, 12:10 AM
West was a legendary steals and blocks guy for his size. The lack of a 3pt shot hurt his efficiency as well. Its one of the problems I run into, deciding what to make of shooting specialists Pre-3PT Era. Is Pistol Pete a cancerous showboat who couldnt win, or simply ahead of his team and should be excused for mastering a shot that wouldnt lead to efficient results.

Chronz you should have a fair idea. I've read that if blocks were recorded in West's time he would have had near 10 block games. Do you recall anything of the such. Bagwell368 said he saw West personally and that that is not true and that West was actually a poor defensive player. What do you have to make of that?

WadeKobe
07-22-2011, 01:28 AM
If you use Win Shares (which I suppose you could argue its accuracy for the 60s since turnovers aren't kept, along with other stats), West's prime isn't that great compared to some of the other all-time greats. Same goes for PER.

It's not "could argue", it's "must argue."

Turnovers, 3-point shooting, offensive rebounds, steals, and blocks were not recorded. If they were, Jerry West's WS and PER would be in LeBron James territory, arguably reaching Jordan territory.

He was THAT good.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 01:40 AM
West was a legendary steals and blocks guy for his size. The lack of a 3pt shot hurt his efficiency as well. Its one of the problems I run into, deciding what to make of shooting specialists Pre-3PT Era. Is Pistol Pete a cancerous showboat who couldnt win, or simply ahead of his time and should be excused for mastering a shot that wouldnt lead to efficient results.

I guess it really depends on how you want to evaluate players. Does their game translate to modern times or do you measure their dominance vs. the competition at the time and how that compares to how others dominated their competition.

I've always believed in more of the 2nd way but as you said, is it really unfair to penalize someone for being ahead of their time. You could argue that the player should've tried to adjust his play to the way the game was played, which I suppose means every big man in the 50s-60s would be favored over guards. So maybe comparing the guards with each other and in that case, I'm assuming West was easily the best guard in that time.

WadeKobe
07-22-2011, 01:48 AM
So that's like... top 5-8? I don't think he has ANY business in that realm, but I'd like to hear the argument...?


Well first, this...


It's not "could argue", it's "must argue."

Turnovers, 3-point shooting, offensive rebounds, steals, and blocks were not recorded. If they were, Jerry West's WS and PER would be in LeBron James territory, arguably reaching Jordan territory.

He was THAT good.

Secondly, accolades were not around the same back then. The guy made the All Defensive First Team all 4 years it was available, and that was his last 4 years in the league, well past his prime. He would most likely hold the record for First Team all Defensive selections if they were around during his whole career.

Averaged over 30 points a game 5 different times, and the only reason he doesn't have 5-7 scoring titles is because he had to compete against a prime Wilt, and the absolutely cancerous chucker named Pistol Pete for those things.

He made the all-star team every single season. Every. Single. Season.

He's 4th all time in WS/48 among guards, but all the others had a 3-point arc and modern statistics to their aid. No doubt West would be above all of them except MJ if he'd had modern statistics. He'd also be ahead of Duncan, Magic, and Kareem.

He is tied with Michael Jordan for second all-time in All NBA First Team selections, with eleven, and third all time in All NBA selections (13).

He only has one championship, but he lost to the most stacked NBA team of all time, the 60s Celtics, 4x. In a team game, his team lost to the greatest or second greatest team ever assembled. Can you really count that against him?

In 1969, he played so well for the championship that even though the Celtics won, Jerry West won Finals MVP - the only player to ever win it while playing for a losing team. It's clearly not his fault his team couldn't get past the Celtics.

The guy is better than just about everyone in the top 10, and he's easily in the same conversation as Wilt and KAJ, arguing for #2 of all time. He's that good, and always was. He just loses out because he didn't have modern stats and people don't realize how crucial that is.

Also, people give him crap because his team couldn't beat the most dominant team the NBA has ever seen. I think that's a little silly.

If it weren't for MJ, West would be GOAT.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 01:49 AM
It's not "could argue", it's "must argue."

Turnovers, 3-point shooting, offensive rebounds, steals, and blocks were not recorded. If they were, Jerry West's WS and PER would be in LeBron James territory, arguably reaching Jordan territory.

He was THAT good.

I think that's still an assumption though. For example, Bagwell, who's said he's seen West play, says that his defense was overrated. Really, good old film is probably the only way you could evaluate someone like West with the lack of stats that were tracked back then.

I think all you can really do is compare West to his fellow guards and essentially use that to try to measure his dominance.

WadeKobe
07-22-2011, 01:50 AM
I guess it really depends on how you want to evaluate players. Does their game translate to modern times or do you measure their dominance vs. the competition at the time and how that compares to how others dominated their competition.

I've always believed in more of the 2nd way but as you said, is it really unfair to penalize someone for being ahead of their time. You could argue that the player should've tried to adjust his play to the way the game was played, which I suppose means every big man in the 50s-60s would be favored over guards. So maybe comparing the guards with each other and in that case, I'm assuming West was easily the best guard in that time.

It was nowhere near close, and yet Oscar Robertson is voted over him here. :cry:

It's really a tragedy.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 02:05 AM
It was nowhere near close, and yet Oscar Robertson is voted over him here. :cry:

It's really a tragedy.

Depending on whether you call Oscar a guard or forward. Statistically, Win Shares wise, Oscar has him beat. But then again, in what I guess you'd call the "pre-stats" era, does no 3 point shot, no turnovers, blocks, steals, etc. being tracked more of an advantage to Oscar vs. West?

I don't know the answer, as I haven't studied either in depth.

WadeKobe
07-22-2011, 02:09 AM
Depending on whether you call Oscar a guard or forward. Statistically, Win Shares wise, Oscar has him beat. But then again, in what I guess you'd call the "pre-stats" era, does no 3 point shot, no turnovers, blocks, steals, etc. being tracked more of an advantage to Oscar vs. West?

I don't know the answer, as I haven't studied either in depth.

West has him beat per 48. That's more significant, imo.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 02:18 AM
West has him beat per 48. That's more significant, imo.

Eh, I trust the way basketball-ref has calculated Win Shares in the pre-stats era, at least based on whats available. I haven't taken in depth look at it and figured out exactly what they're doing but they appear to even try to estimate assisted FGs vs. unassisted. Of course, this is obviously all without turnovers, Orebounds, etc. factored in.

I'm going to try to take a deeper look at it and see if I can figure out what they're doing. Too tired to do it right now.

WadeKobe
07-22-2011, 02:23 AM
Eh, I trust the way basketball-ref has calculated Win Shares in the pre-stats era, at least based on whats available. I haven't taken in depth look at it and figured out exactly what they're doing but they appear to even try to estimate assisted FGs vs. unassisted. Of course, this is obviously all without turnovers, Orebounds, etc. factored in.

I'm going to try to take a deeper look at it and see if I can figure out what they're doing. Too tired to do it right now.

Sure, I just mean that even though O has him beat in WS, it's only because of volume, not average. West averaged more per 48. So, in my opinion, that negates the volume.

Thanks for the back and forth, though. I'm pretty adamant about West, and completely stopped voting around 7 because I couldn't take it anymore, lol. I just think people overlook him because of the fact that he lost 4 chips and didn't have many scoring titles. I also think they're not paying attention to the reality behind those things.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 02:31 AM
Sure, I just mean that even though O has him beat in WS, it's only because of volume, not average. West averaged more per 48. So, in my opinion, that negates the volume.

Thanks for the back and forth, though. I'm pretty adamant about West, and completely stopped voting around 7 because I couldn't take it anymore, lol. I just think people overlook him because of the fact that he lost 4 chips and didn't have many scoring titles. I also think they're not paying attention to the reality behind those things.

Yeah, I'll be honest, I have no clue how to really evaluate the guys back then. I also need to do some more research on these guys. But thanks for the info on West.

I'm actually planning on watching some tape (or games) of a lot of these guys to try to get what my numbers missed (in the NBA Stats forum).

tredigs
07-22-2011, 02:03 PM
Yeah, I'll be honest, I have no clue how to really evaluate the guys back then. I also need to do some more research on these guys. But thanks for the info on West.

I'm actually planning on watching some tape (or games) of a lot of these guys to try to get what my numbers missed (in the NBA Stats forum).

Bears mentioning that West had a devastating outside shot, and played in an era where paint play was brutal (and he was a slasher) - he's a guy that would absolutely crush in today's game given the propensity for foul calls to slashing guards and a 3pt shot. His career TS% would easily be over >.600, and this was still in an era where percentages from the guard slot were generally dismal.

The "10 blocks a game" **** is complete nonsense though. I've watched a good amount of West's games, and there's NO chance that dude's averaging 10 a game for any stretch of time. But his timing was sick, he definitely got his hands in on a good amount of shots he had no business being in on.

Given his playoff performances in relation to Oscar, I don't see how someone takes O over him, but c'est la vie.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-22-2011, 02:16 PM
Bears mentioning that West had a devastating outside shot, and played in an era where paint play was brutal (and he was a slasher) - he's a guy that would absolutely crush in today's game given the propensity for foul calls to slashing guards and a 3pt shot. His career TS% would easily be over >.600, and this was still in an era where percentages from the guard slot were generally dismal.

The "10 blocks a game" **** is complete nonsense though. I've watched a good amount of West's games, and there's NO chance that dude's averaging 10 a game for any stretch of time. But his timing was sick, he definitely got his hands in on a good amount of shots he had no business being in on.

Given his playoff performances in relation to Oscar, I don't see how someone takes O over him, but c'est la vie.

But should you necessarily evaluate a guy based on how he'd play in today's game? You're then essentially left with "what ifs", which I suppose is fair.

I still think/prefer to look at a player in his time and compare him to his peers. For a guard in the 60s, obviously you'd have to compare him to other guards because big men were way more valuable back then. This basically takes the "what if" aspect out and from there, you look at dominance vs. peers compared to others.

Just my take. I could certainly understand why someone would want to look at how a player's game translated to in the present. But basically, it's 2 different questions.

b1e9a8r5s
07-22-2011, 04:42 PM
Why is Gary Payton on this list? And once again where is Pippen? I picked West

KnicksorBust
07-22-2011, 05:38 PM
Chronz you should have a fair idea. I've read that if blocks were recorded in West's time he would have had near 10 block games. Do you recall anything of the such. Bagwell368 said he saw West personally and that that is not true and that West was actually a poor defensive player. What do you have to make of that?

The real shame is that we lost out on Russell's blocks total. His resume would look a lot "sexier" if we had some 5bpg seasons on there. Apparently Russell and Wilt would have re-defined quadruple doubles.

NYKalltheway
07-22-2011, 05:46 PM
The real shame is that we lost out on Russell's blocks total. His resume would look a lot "sexier" if we had some 5bpg seasons on there. Apparently Russell and Wilt would have re-defined quadruple doubles.

Is there absolutely no way of retrieving that data? Did they not register the # of blocks among other stuff back then? It'd be great if people could find those older games and register the data! Such a shame that the earlier generations have incomplete data

Swashcuff
07-22-2011, 05:52 PM
The real shame is that we lost out on Russell's blocks total. His resume would look a lot "sexier" if we had some 5bpg seasons on there. Apparently Russell and Wilt would have re-defined quadruple doubles.

With the pace in those days, the height of the average player and the fact that there was no 3 point line there is no doubt that their block averages would have been astronomical.