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C-Style
07-17-2011, 03:35 PM
I was wondering this, His case is that with 7 Championships,No other player would come close to having such resume in Modern Basketball by the time it's all set and done for his career(other than MJ). If he plays 4 more years, all this would give him more 1st NBA teams, All-star seasons, All-time scoring records and possibly even more defensive team selections and so on...

1 Championship as the 2nd best player
2 Championships as the 1b Option
4 Championships as the Best Player

Or is this setting the bar too low for other players? Note: MJ's Bar is set too hight I doubt any player comes close to it. from Season Achievements to his Finals Performances.

Jenceman
07-17-2011, 03:38 PM
Yeah he'd be a top 3-4 lock for sure.

210Don
07-17-2011, 03:39 PM
sure why not i doubt he wins any more chips tho \_(ツ)_/

NYKalltheway
07-17-2011, 03:47 PM
1 Championship as the 2nd best player
2 Championships as the 1b Option
4 Championships as the Best Player

where does this come from?

THE GIPPER
07-17-2011, 04:03 PM
3 of his rings he was 2nd best player there was no "1b"

Khalifa21
07-17-2011, 04:13 PM
For a start he's not gonna win 2 more titles. You can also argue his last title Gasol should've been the finals MVP.

His first three titles he was the clear cut number 2 as well.

Avenged
07-17-2011, 04:15 PM
Probably not. Depends on how you rank him right now.

Many don't think he makes the top 10, a few don't even think he makes the top 20 (ridiculous, I know).

The majority says he's on par with Duncan and Hakeem, since all 3 are arguably close. I'd say with 2 more Finals MVP's, he would undeniable go ahead of them both.. Maybe 1 more spot as well. Good luck trying to convince PSD though.

chong2204
07-17-2011, 04:24 PM
For a start he's not gonna win 2 more titles. You can also argue his last title Gasol should've been the finals MVP.

His first three titles he was the clear cut number 2 as well.

False statement. Up to game 7, even if the Lakers lost, there was talk if Kobe would be the Finals MVP on a losing team. Pau and Word Peace saved the Lakers and helped them get the chip in 2010. Kobe was clearly the best player that series, even if he had a bad shooting game, hell even dirk had just had a bad game 6 and was the clear favorite for Finals MVP..So yeah, saying Pau should be Finals MVP is not true, he was not even mvp of game 7, it was world peace.:cheers:

MrfadeawayJB
07-17-2011, 04:26 PM
maybe he should get to the finals first there champ...but if he did what you suggested, i suppose he would be #2 all time behind MJ

C-Style
07-17-2011, 04:40 PM
For a start he's not gonna win 2 more titles. You can also argue his last title Gasol should've been the finals MVP.

His first three titles he was the clear cut number 2 as well.

Got a flashback to when ppl were so sure that he wasn't gonna win anymore tittles post Shaq!:laugh2: No way Gasol has a case over Kobe, He was clearly the MVP the 1st six games and game 7 he came through with 10pts on the 4th.

Also Kobe WAS the 1B he was putting it on the Spurs, BLazers and Kings, The Lakers REAL Competition during their 3peat.

tredigs
07-17-2011, 04:44 PM
Short of acquiring D. Howard, it's going to be very tough for the Lakers to make another finals during the Kobe era, let alone win a ship and have Kobe as the best player. OKC is simply too young, too good, and now has the playoff experience to boot. That's with the chance of another Mavs run aside... or any other up 'n coming teams.

And in that scenario, D. Howard becomes the teams best player/likely finals MVP, leaving Kobe as a strong second fiddle once again.

And C-Style, Pau easily has an argument as being better than Kobe not only in the finals, but the entire 2nd half of the season + playoffs in their last finals run. Phil himself flat out said Pau was their MVP of the second half. At the VERY least, they were 1a/1b.

tredigs
07-17-2011, 05:17 PM
Pretty crazy - looking at Kobe's career stats in both regular season and playoffs, the guy has led in SO few categories as compared to anyone else in All-Time top ten rankings. He's led in points per game a couple times, WS once, and nothing else outside of FG or FT attempts.

I really figured he'd have at least led the regular and/or post season in PER, Win Shares, Offensive rating, stls/stl%, something, at least a couple times. But no. He hasn't. There's simply always been more dominant individual performances than him. Not the case with any other legend we look at. Undeniably an all time talent (top 15 fairly comfortably I'd say), but Media and absolutely stacked rosters have probably inflated Kobe's legacy a decent bit higher than he is truly worth. Eye test aside, it's amazing if you just compare his numbers head to head against MJ how drastically inferior he is, and this is post-handcheck rule.

Given the choice of Kobe or Hakeem to start a team (knowing everything we know about the totality of their individual career+peak), I really don't think it's a contest. Tough to imagine a GM taking Kobe. Which is why I could never have him ahead of 'Dream, KAJ, or Wilt + Russell, and obviously Jordan. Prime Bird was superior, but it's fine to take Kobe over him when it's all said and done giving the weight that should be given to longevity at a certain point, but Magic? Eh, he got the short end of the stick with an ignorant populace after the AIDS scare. It's tough to ding his longevity for that, and prime Magic > Kobe. Just so much more influential offensively, and at the PG/SG position, defense is far less impactful/important than that of a big. I'll take Magic all day.

WadeKobe
07-17-2011, 05:52 PM
Probably not. Depends on how you rank him right now.

Many don't think he makes the top 10, a few don't even think he makes the top 20 (ridiculous, I know).

The majority says he's on par with Duncan and Hakeem, since all 3 are arguably close. I'd say with 2 more Finals MVP's, he would undeniable go ahead of them both.. Maybe 1 more spot as well. Good luck trying to convince PSD though.

I personally think that Duncan and Hakeem are definitely better than him at this point, but 2 more championships as a starter changes that, regardless of Finals MVP's. He moves ahead of Magic and Bird if he accomplishes that.

@ OP - No. He would not be #2. Wilt and Shaq would still both be clearly better, and if LeBron wins 3, and Wade 4, they'll both finish better.

Kevj77
07-17-2011, 05:53 PM
3 of his rings he was 2nd best player there was no "1b"He was absolutely option "1b" in his 2nd and 3rd championships. The only year he ever lead the NBA playoffs in WS was his 2nd championship and Shaq was on the team. His per was 25 compared to 28.7 for Shaq. Kobe averaged 29.4, 7.3, 6.1 while destroying the Spurs in the WCF, which was for the championship the 76ers had no chance they had nobody to stop Shaq, but Duncan played him well in the WCF. Shaq was the finals MVP, but Kobe was the MVP of the WCF without a doubt which was they only team standing in the way of the title.

Shaq was the main man, but Kobe was more than a 2nd option.

knightstemplar
07-17-2011, 05:58 PM
He was absolutely option "1b" in his 2nd and 3rd championships. The only year he ever lead the NBA playoffs in WS was his 2nd championship and Shaq was on the team. His per was 25 compared to 28.7 for Shaq. Kobe averaged 29.4, 7.3, 6.1 while destroying the Spurs in the WCF, which was for the championship the 76ers had no chance they had nobody to stop Shaq, but Duncan played him well in the WCF. Shaq was the finals MVP, but Kobe was the MVP of the WCF without a doubt which was they only team standing in the way of the title.

Shaq was the main man, but Kobe was more than a 2nd option.

Kobe led the team in PPG in the first 3 rounds of the 2001 and 2002 playoffs, so 1b is more like it

knightstemplar
07-17-2011, 05:58 PM
I personally think that Duncan and Hakeem are definitely better than him at this point, but 2 more championships as a starter changes that, regardless of Finals MVP's. He moves ahead of Magic and Bird if he accomplishes that.

@ OP - No. He would not be #2. Wilt and Shaq would still both be clearly better, and if LeBron wins 3, and Wade 4, they'll both finish better.

:facepalm:

HouRealCoach
07-17-2011, 06:45 PM
Im no Kobe fan but I have to say 7 chips and 4 Finals MVP's speaks for itself... That will solidify him as the second greatest ever but then again the way the Lakers are looking it seems as they are headed downhill

JordansBulls
07-17-2011, 06:50 PM
I've never understood threads where players are given titles and mvp's and finals mvp's in the future asking where they would rank. But to answer the question no he wouldn't because his prime wasn't dominate enough.
The top 3 on the list we had were MJ, Kareem and Wilt and all 3 led in PER and WS 7x+ and 9x for Win Shares.

ajm56
07-17-2011, 07:12 PM
1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Kobe
6. Russell
7. Magic
8. Big O
9. Hakeem
10. Malone

hard_candy
07-17-2011, 07:37 PM
Kobe's issue now is quality of life after basketball.

He's had so many injuries he'll be in constant pain for the rest of his life if he plays 2 more seasons, much less wins 2 more rings.

LA_Raiders
07-17-2011, 07:54 PM
He becomes the GOAT

ChiSox219
07-17-2011, 07:56 PM
False statement. Up to game 7, even if the Lakers lost, there was talk if Kobe would be the Finals MVP on a losing team. Pau and Word Peace saved the Lakers and helped them get the chip in 2010. Kobe was clearly the best player that series, even if he had a bad shooting game, hell even dirk had just had a bad game 6 and was the clear favorite for Finals MVP..So yeah, saying Pau should be Finals MVP is not true, he was not even mvp of game 7, it was world peace.:cheers:

I don't remember any such talk and here's the numbers from the Finals, Gasol has a guy and IMO Pau was robbed.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010_finals.html


Pretty crazy - looking at Kobe's career stats in both regular season and playoffs, the guy has led in SO few categories as compared to anyone else in All-Time top ten rankings. He's led in points per game a couple times, WS once, and nothing else outside of FG or FT attempts.

I really figured he'd have at least led the regular and/or post season in PER, Win Shares, Offensive rating, stls/stl%, something, at least a couple times. But no. He hasn't. There's simply always been more dominant individual performances than him. Not the case with any other legend we look at. Undeniably an all time talent (top 15 fairly comfortably I'd say), but Media and absolutely stacked rosters have probably inflated Kobe's legacy a decent bit higher than he is truly worth. Eye test aside, it's amazing if you just compare his numbers head to head against MJ how drastically inferior he is, and this is post-handcheck rule.

Given the choice of Kobe or Hakeem to start a team (knowing everything we know about the totality of their individual career+peak), I really don't think it's a contest. Tough to imagine a GM taking Kobe. Which is why I could never have him ahead of 'Dream, KAJ, or Wilt + Russell, and obviously Jordan. Prime Bird was superior, but it's fine to take Kobe over him when it's all said and done giving the weight that should be given to longevity at a certain point, but Magic? Eh, he got the short end of the stick with an ignorant populace after the AIDS scare. It's tough to ding his longevity for that, and prime Magic > Kobe. Just so much more influential offensively, and at the PG/SG position, defense is far less impactful/important than that of a big. I'll take Magic all day.

I love everything about this post.

naps
07-17-2011, 07:56 PM
He becomes the GOAT

He's already the GOAT ^^.

C-Style
07-17-2011, 08:08 PM
I would also like to point out that Jordan in his 15 seasons averaged 30.1/6.2/5.3 And Kobe has 12 seasons(out of 15) averaging 27.6/5.7/5.1

Bookey
07-17-2011, 08:15 PM
In my opinion Kobe is already arguably the second greatest player of all-time, the only people I would put above him are Jordan & Kareem,people try to slight him because he had Shaq. Shaq had him too, he always carried them to the Finals, Shaq dominated in the finals but Kobe was huge for them as well. If he wins 2 more championships he can easily be argued as the GOAT. As for people who give Gasol so much credit, he was just a good player on a terrible team until he got to the Lakers he became a great player & wouldn't of won nothing without Kobe. This is coming from a huge Michael Jordan & Bulls fan. People feel so threatened to see someone challenge Jordan, but are also quick to label someone the next Jordan. You can't hate on greatness & Kobe is great & a winner.

C-Style
07-17-2011, 08:31 PM
I don't remember any such talk and here's the numbers from the Finals, Gasol has a guy and IMO Pau was robbed.


Analysts were indeed talking about it.. u just didn't listen. Kobe up until game 7 was averaging 30/7/4 on 46%. Even though he didn't play well in game 7 he manage to score 10 pts for his team on the 4th quarter.

Geargo Wallace
07-17-2011, 08:34 PM
I don't think Kobe can win a ship as the best player on his team.

Bruno
07-17-2011, 08:36 PM
Probably not. Depends on how you rank him right now.

Many don't think he makes the top 10, a few don't even think he makes the top 20 (ridiculous, I know).


I wouldn't go that far. The vast majority of NBA fans, management, and personal put Kobe in the top ten. Those who don't put Kobe in the top ten are in the minority, at this point.

Bruno
07-17-2011, 08:40 PM
I love it when people talk about how Gasol should have won 2010 Finals MVP. People in the media were talking about Bryant possibly getting Finals MVP even if the Lakers lost (obviously he wouldn't have, but it was being discussed as a talking-point on major sporting net-works). He was putting up 30-7-4 on 46% prior to game seven. His 6-24 shooting performance gave his detractors all the fodder they needed to ignore the first six games, as well has his fifteen rebounds in game seven.

Kobe Bryant- 2009 and 2010 NBA finals MVP. 4th player in league history to win the award consecutively. Those are facts, and that's what the record book writes; like it or not.

Geargo Wallace
07-17-2011, 08:40 PM
Kobe's issue now is quality of life after basketball.

He's had so many injuries he'll be in constant pain for the rest of his life if he plays 2 more seasons, much less wins 2 more rings.

this is a funny post. I don't think Kobe needs to worry about this at all. A busted finger and sore knees is not too bad. Ask Bird about his back. Iverson about his everything. Yao/Walton about their feet. I can go on. Kobe has been remarkably healthy through his long career.

Chronz
07-17-2011, 08:42 PM
Only if you think the NBA is some sort of fantasy rpg game where you gain levels with every match.

Bruno
07-17-2011, 08:46 PM
Bryant- 28.6 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.1 spg, 0.7 bpg, TS% of .523

Gasol- 18.6 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 3.7 apg, 0.7 spg, 2.6 spg, TS% of .556

Where's the robbery?

GoPacers33
07-17-2011, 09:20 PM
Only way he wins more is if they get Dwight Howard then he'd still be the second best . So it's a lose lose for this idea

bagwell368
07-17-2011, 09:22 PM
Kobe is in no mans land IMO.

He's clearly the 2nd best #2 of all time. He'll never supplant #1. Anyone notice outside of volume stats he led the league in very very few categories?

HOF Probability has him at #7 (it looks at titles), Win Shares says #21. He has a shot at #11-14 Win Shares. I can't see him getting any titles on the Lakers, so he'll have to join a hopeful team to get one more ring - that may get him to #6 in HOF Probability. Glue together what those things mean, he's going to end up being between #8 and #12 all time when he retires.

My favorite thing about the guy is he played very tough defense when he needed too I mean superb. A lot of big offensive players give that up if they ever had that skill. The guy really extended himself in 2008 and since - he said to himself my legacy is on the line, and I want titles and humped it out.

He's a toad as a human, and seems jerky as a teammate, but hey he's not the only one.

Swashcuff
07-17-2011, 09:41 PM
I would also like to point out that Jordan in his 15 seasons averaged 30.1/6.2/5.3 And Kobe has 12 seasons(out of 15) averaging 27.6/5.7/5.1

What does this have to do with anything?

Bruno
07-17-2011, 09:47 PM
What does this have to do with anything?

He's just putting his career averages into perspective. Bryants first 150 games were off the bench in limited minutes, and his career averages take a hit as a result. The numbers he posted are a better reflection of his bulk contributions; his first three years being averaged into his totals is the equivalent of an older players final three years- bringing down his career averages considerably.

C-Style
07-17-2011, 10:05 PM
What does this have to do with anything?

Just putting his career into perspective. And showing you that his career numbers belong along the elite. I mean, round those numbers up and u get 28/6/5.

PhillyFaninLA
07-17-2011, 10:10 PM
There is nothing he can at this point to even be better then the 3rd best Laker of all time....he might even be the 4th or 5th best Laker of all time so no he won't be the second be player all time.

Swashcuff
07-17-2011, 10:11 PM
He's just putting his career averages into perspective. Bryants first 150 games were off the bench in limited minutes, and his career averages take a hit as a result. The numbers he posted are a better reflection of his bulk contributions; his first three years being averaged into his totals is the equivalent of an older players final three years- bringing down his career averages considerably.

He selectively opted to leave out Kobe's 1st season as a starter (his third).

Why not include that season as well? Jordan's last 2 season's came at the age 38 and 39 after a 3 year hiatus from the game. Didn't that bring down MJ's career averages considerably? I mean honestly if this is done for many of the great players in league history who didn't get off to the hottest start or really tailed off late in their career for different reasons many players would be viewed as much better than they currently are.

I mean the differences are huge by any means but still I don't think its fair to compare selectively. The same method should be used across the board instead of being used to favour one player over another.

Swashcuff
07-17-2011, 10:13 PM
Just putting his career into perspective. And showing you that his career numbers belong along the elite. I mean, round those numbers up and u get 28/6/5.

I really don't understand the putting the career in perspective part. Who knows if it wasn't for Kobe's first 3 seasons in the league he may not have developed into the player he is today.

JustBringIt
07-17-2011, 10:16 PM
Pretty crazy - looking at Kobe's career stats in both regular season and playoffs, the guy has led in SO few categories as compared to anyone else in All-Time top ten rankings. He's led in points per game a couple times, WS once, and nothing else outside of FG or FT attempts.

I really figured he'd have at least led the regular and/or post season in PER, Win Shares, Offensive rating, stls/stl%, something, at least a couple times. But no. He hasn't. There's simply always been more dominant individual performances than him. Not the case with any other legend we look at. Undeniably an all time talent (top 15 fairly comfortably I'd say), but Media and absolutely stacked rosters have probably inflated Kobe's legacy a decent bit higher than he is truly worth. Eye test aside, it's amazing if you just compare his numbers head to head against MJ how drastically inferior he is, and this is post-handcheck rule.

Given the choice of Kobe or Hakeem to start a team (knowing everything we know about the totality of their individual career+peak), I really don't think it's a contest. Tough to imagine a GM taking Kobe. Which is why I could never have him ahead of 'Dream, KAJ, or Wilt + Russell, and obviously Jordan. Prime Bird was superior, but it's fine to take Kobe over him when it's all said and done giving the weight that should be given to longevity at a certain point, but Magic? Eh, he got the short end of the stick with an ignorant populace after the AIDS scare. It's tough to ding his longevity for that, and prime Magic > Kobe. Just so much more influential offensively, and at the PG/SG position, defense is far less impactful/important than that of a big. I'll take Magic all day.

Oh silly you but your not a gm and your a lbj fan, I'm pretty sure 30/30 gm would draft Kobe instead of Hakeem especially when it's all said and done

Geargo Wallace
07-17-2011, 10:19 PM
Oh silly you but your not a gm and your a lbj fan, I'm pretty sure 30/30 gm would draft Kobe instead of Hakeem especially when it's all said and done

lol even MJ wouldn't draft Kobe over Hakeem

JustBringIt
07-17-2011, 10:20 PM
I've never understood threads where players are given titles and mvp's and finals mvp's in the future asking where they would rank. But to answer the question no he wouldn't because his prime wasn't dominate enough.
The top 3 on the list we had were MJ, Kareem and Wilt and all 3 led in PER and WS 7x+ and 9x for Win Shares.

Longetivity>prime&peak

Bruno
07-17-2011, 10:22 PM
He selectively opted to leave out Kobe's 1st season as a starter (his third).

Why not include that season as well? Jordan's last 2 season's came at the age 38 and 39 after a 3 year hiatus from the game. Didn't that bring down MJ's career averages considerably? I mean honestly if this is done for many of the great players in league history who didn't get off to the hottest start or really tailed off late in their career for different reasons many players would be viewed as much better than they currently are.

I mean the differences are huge by any means but still I don't think its fair to compare selectively. The same method should be used across the board instead of being used to favour one player over another.

Not that selectively; Jordan was 21 during his rookie season, Bryant wasn't 21 until his 4th season (99-00). 98-99, Bryants third season was also a locked-out, shortened season. That's probably why he didn't start the comparison until 99-00, when they were of the same age.

Jordans final two years of corse lowered his career averages. It would be most fair to take Jordans final two years out of his career averages when making this comparison.

No other player in the top ten had to sit and wait for as long as Bryant did; every other person on our list was a star from day one. For that reason I take issue what the part I bolded following "...didn't that bring down MJs averages considerably". I don't think it would change the way their are viewed at all, it would just be easier to quantify the bulk of their production; I don't see anyone really falling or rising just because a certain set of counting statistics became available. :shrug:

I'd agree with you that Jordans final two years shouldn't be counted if trying to making the fairest comparison. His final two years don't do his career averages justice, just as Bryants first three (especially his first two) don't do his career averages justice. The back-breaker for Kobe is that he will feel this in the forum of a double-dip. Both his first 2-3 seasons, and his last 2-3 seasons will take a serious hit those averages.

DCB/LAL
07-17-2011, 10:23 PM
No doubt... Kobe already is the second greatest to ever play.


And dont worry about trying to convince PSD once Kobe retires he will be known by most people as the second greatest to play the game and the GREATEST part of that is people will try and argue it and will be the overwhelming MINORITY in that debate!! :clap: Thats the truth whether they like it or not.

Bruno
07-17-2011, 10:25 PM
Who knows if it wasn't for Kobe's first 3 seasons in the league he may not have developed into the player he is today.

What about his first three season were so influential to his development, if you had to say? A specific coach, or series or experience?

I think the air-balls in Utah were big for his development, but Kobe's career really didn't take off until Phill took over the reigns in LA before the 1999-2000 season.

JustBringIt
07-17-2011, 10:28 PM
There is nothing he can at this point to even be better then the 3rd best Laker of all time....he might even be the 4th or 5th best Laker of all time so no he won't be the second be player all time.

Why do you bash Kobe so much? He is easily the #2 best laker ever and will be #1 when he retires, http with your #4 or #5 laker talk lmfao what are you smoking? Wait your a phily fan, now I understand

JustBringIt
07-17-2011, 10:31 PM
lol even MJ wouldn't draft Kobe over Hakeem

Your right he wouldn't after all hes the guy who drafted kwame brown and adam Morrison lmfao

Geargo Wallace
07-17-2011, 10:36 PM
Why do you bash Kobe so much? He is easily the #2 best laker ever and will be #1 when he retires, http with your #4 or #5 laker talk lmfao what are you smoking? Wait your a phily fan, now I understand
...and you've done nothing but prove that you're a huge Lakers homer.

Your right he wouldn't after all hes the guy who drafted kwame brown and adam Morrison lmfao
I'm not sure if you understood the joke.

Avenged
07-17-2011, 10:36 PM
I wouldn't go that far. The vast majority of NBA fans, management, and personal put Kobe in the top ten. Those who don't put Kobe in the top ten are in the minority, at this point.

I'm talking PSD.

I know outside of this Forum the majority have him in the top 10. I mean there's a reason why he's always discussed in comparison to Jordan (despite what the posters on here think).

I've noticed in the all-time threads that many didn't think he belong in the top 10 of all-time, and that's fine when you back it up... but... I didn't see one good reason besides him having Shaq and Pau.

Avenged
07-17-2011, 10:37 PM
There is nothing he can at this point to even be better then the 3rd best Laker of all time....he might even be the 4th or 5th best Laker of all time so no he won't be the second be player all time.

Why is there nothing he can do? Just wondering.

It's not as if he's a bum and is about to retire. He's still a top player in the game, and his team is still one of the best. There's plenty he can do to move up the ranks.

broncosfan4eva
07-17-2011, 10:41 PM
In my opinion Kobe is already arguably the second greatest player of all-time, the only people I would put above him are Jordan & Kareem,people try to slight him because he had Shaq. Shaq had him too, he always carried them to the Finals, Shaq dominated in the finals but Kobe was huge for them as well. If he wins 2 more championships he can easily be argued as the GOAT. As for people who give Gasol so much credit, he was just a good player on a terrible team until he got to the Lakers he became a great player & wouldn't of won nothing without Kobe. This is coming from a huge Michael Jordan & Bulls fan. People feel so threatened to see someone challenge Jordan, but are also quick to label someone the next Jordan. You can't hate on greatness & Kobe is great & a winner.

Well put

MTar786
07-17-2011, 10:41 PM
I personally think that Duncan and Hakeem are definitely better than him at this point, but 2 more championships as a starter changes that, regardless of Finals MVP's. He moves ahead of Magic and Bird if he accomplishes that.

@ OP - No. He would not be #2. Wilt and Shaq would still both be clearly better, and if LeBron wins 3, and Wade 4, they'll both finish better.

lol ur ********, why does lebron need 3 and wade need 4 to best kobe? kobe has 5 last time i counted. id say lebron and wade need atleast 5. lebron and wade play on the same team which should make it that much easier to win a title.. kobe got 3 in a row like that with shaq even though kobe was a kid not in his prime and not two superstars in their prime plus an all star like with the heat. then he won 2 more titles with an all star in pau and a bunch of good supporting players and a 6th man of the year type.

wade and lebron need atleast 3 together and 2 on their own to equal kobe.

bholly
07-17-2011, 10:44 PM
Only if you think the NBA is some sort of fantasy rpg game where you gain levels with every match.

a million times this.

MTar786
07-17-2011, 10:44 PM
people over rate gasol because they hate kobe.

gasol is a perpetual 18 and 9 guys.. if you call that superstar numbers then suit yourself.

gasol wasnt even a perrennial all star untill now.. he does deserve to be IMO.
but i would never call him a superstar or anywhere near the top 50 all time list. maybe top 80-100

tredigs
07-17-2011, 10:46 PM
I'm talking PSD.

I know outside of this Forum the majority have him in the top 10. I mean there's a reason why he's always discussed in comparison to Jordan (despite what the posters on here think).

I've noticed in the all-time threads that many didn't think he belong in the top 10 of all-time, and that's fine when you back it up... but... I didn't see one good reason besides him having Shaq and Pau.

As a smart/generally objective poster, do you believe in any way that two are comparative in the sense that one could be argued over the other (?), or that they ever could be? To me, it's one of those things where the closer you look, the greater the divide grows.

In my personal experience with in-depth analysis of NBA players (focusing on Kobe in this case), the more experienced/nuanced opinion a board has, the less Kobe seems to be revered. I don't think there's any reason why people would have some vendetta against him being a GOAT candidate (people want nothing more than to watch the greatest of all time first hand), but the fact of the matter is that he just doesn't stack up... and it's not even CLOSE man.

JordansBulls
07-17-2011, 10:52 PM
As a smart/generally objective poster, do you believe in any way that two are comparative in the sense that one could be argued over the other (?), or that they ever could be? To me, it's one of those things where the closer you look, the greater the divide grows.

In my personal experience with in-depth analysis of NBA players (focusing on Kobe in this case), the more experienced/nuanced opinion a board has, the less Kobe seems to be revered. I don't think there's any reason why people would have some vendetta against him being a GOAT candidate (people want nothing more than to watch the greatest of all time first hand), but the fact of the matter is that he just doesn't stack up... and it's not even CLOSE man.

Kobe and Jordan will always be compared because they both are about the same height, same build, similar style game and was coached by Phil Jackson. Both are explosive and both are assasins. The big difference is the overall productivity of the two. Kobe for instance in none of the seasons he has won titles has led his own team in win shares on the season.

tredigs
07-17-2011, 11:01 PM
Kobe and Jordan will always be compared because they both are about the same height, same build, similar style game and was coached by Phil Jackson. Both are explosive and both are assasins. The big difference is the overall productivity of the two. Kobe for instance in none of the seasons he has won titles has led his own team in win shares on the season.

Yeah, I'm well aware of the physical/style similarities along with the mentality (though I still maintain that Jordan just came off so much more genuine... Kobe's lock jaw reeks of fakeness, but maybe that's just me). But as far as who was the more dominant player, it's an absolute landslide. Still, Kobe replicated the man's game to the point where he became the 2nd best ever at the position (we'll see how Wade closes out the last 5-8 years of his career)... that's saying something.

Avenged
07-17-2011, 11:03 PM
As a smart/generally objective poster, do you believe in any way that two are comparative in the sense that one could be argued over the other (?), or that they ever could be? To me, it's one of those things where the closer you look, the greater the divide grows.

In my personal experience with in-depth analysis of NBA players (focusing on Kobe in this case), the more experienced/nuanced opinion a board has, the less Kobe seems to be revered. I don't think there's any reason why people would have some vendetta against him being a GOAT candidate (people want nothing more than to watch the greatest of all time first hand), but the fact of the matter is that he just doesn't stack up... and it's not even CLOSE man.

No, I don't think they're comparable. I think MJ is ahead of everyone, and I have Kobe ranked exactly where he was according to PSD. My problem is when there are people saying he doesn't belong in the top 10, and some were even saying he's barely top 20 (if that).

All these accomplishments are rewarded for all-time greats but when it comes to Kobe there seems to be a double standard. He's not considered better than a lot of these players (according to PSD) because the advance stats world says so. There's much more to the game than that. Me being a person who uses these stats from time to time (though admitting I'm not that advanced on the material) finds no problem with it. Just that his accomplishments shouldn't be less than what they're worth because he had Shaq and Pau. All these all-time greats had their share of great players as well.

The whole point of the MJ thing I said was mainly to point out how underrated Kobe seems to be on here as compared to outside of this forum, and when someone backs him up or votes for him in polls it's because of "fan boys".

Swashcuff
07-17-2011, 11:06 PM
Not that selectively; Jordan was 21 during his rookie season, Bryant wasn't 21 until his 4th season (99-00). 98-99, Bryants third season was also a locked-out, shortened season. That's probably why he didn't start the comparison until 99-00, when they were of the same age.

In debates where I talk to people who tend to underrate Kobe (especially in comparison to Jerry West) I always use this point of him coming off the bench in his first to seasons which would in turn have a negative effect on his overall averages. However age or not IMO his 3rd season should indeed be acknowledged.


No other player in the top ten had to sit and wait for as long as Bryant did; every other person on our list was a star from day one. For that reason I take issue what the part I bolded following "...didn't that bring down MJs averages considerably". I don't think it would change the way their are viewed at all, it would just be easier to quantify the bulk of their production; I don't see anyone really falling or rising just because a certain set of counting statistics became available. :shrug:

No other player in the league came into the league with as good of a chance to accumulate overall totals. A lot of the arguments in Kobe's favour are made with the view of longevity. Had Kobe come into the league same age as Michael and continued with a 27 ppg average he may not have had a shot at passing Malone on the all time scoring list. I see your argument but IMO more of the Kobe cases are one from the point of longevity rather than quality.


I'd agree with you that Jordans final two years shouldn't be counted if trying to making the fairest comparison. His final two years don't do his career averages justice, just as Bryants first three (especially his first two) don't do his career averages justice. The back-breaker for Kobe is that he will feel this in the forum of a double-dip. Both his first 2-3 seasons, and his last 2-3 seasons will take a serious hit those averages.

Very true. Look at TD's averages now as compared to 3 seasons ago and you see how much his dip in overall production is hurting his career stat line. Kobe will most likely have this same faith.

JustBringIt
07-17-2011, 11:15 PM
Kobe would retire befor he averages anything less then 23 ppg, and that why I think he will retire in 3-4 years he will probably be averaging 23-24 5&4 when he's on his last wheels

Chronz
07-17-2011, 11:20 PM
Who cares what they average for their careers, what's been done cannot be taken away or undone. I might not be getting what you guys are saying but Kobe playing great as a teen isn't a knock against him.

Kobes a Killer
07-17-2011, 11:55 PM
I personally think that Duncan and Hakeem are definitely better than him at this point, but 2 more championships as a starter changes that, regardless of Finals MVP's. He moves ahead of Magic and Bird if he accomplishes that.

@ OP - No. He would not be #2. Wilt and Shaq would still both be clearly better, and if LeBron wins 3, and Wade 4, they'll both finish better.

:facepalm: Epic fail by an epic hater

Kobes a Killer
07-18-2011, 12:01 AM
In my opinion Kobe is already arguably the second greatest player of all-time, the only people I would put above him are Jordan & Kareem,people try to slight him because he had Shaq. Shaq had him too, he always carried them to the Finals, Shaq dominated in the finals but Kobe was huge for them as well. If he wins 2 more championships he can easily be argued as the GOAT. As for people who give Gasol so much credit, he was just a good player on a terrible team until he got to the Lakers he became a great player & wouldn't of won nothing without Kobe. This is coming from a huge Michael Jordan & Bulls fan. People feel so threatened to see someone challenge Jordan, but are also quick to label someone the next Jordan. You can't hate on greatness & Kobe is great & a winner.

:clap:

Avenged
07-18-2011, 12:24 AM
I personally think that Duncan and Hakeem are definitely better than him at this point, but 2 more championships as a starter changes that, regardless of Finals MVP's. He moves ahead of Magic and Bird if he accomplishes that.

@ OP - No. He would not be #2. Wilt and Shaq would still both be clearly better, and if LeBron wins 3, and Wade 4, they'll both finish better.

How would Lebron winning 3 and Wade winning 4 rank him above Kobe?

I would understand if they both wouldn't have teamed up or at least 1 of them (that being Lebron) winning without each other, but the reason why Kobe is not ranked higher is because he had a superstar (Shaq) and a great #2 in Pau. So why wouldn't the same rules apply here?

Lebron has a much higher chance, but Wade will need to do more than just win 4 to surpass Kobe considering he's going to be a #2 for the remainder of his career.

ChiSox219
07-18-2011, 12:26 AM
Lebron will be ranked higher than Kobe regardless of how many rings each ends up with.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 12:39 AM
the OP's scenario has about a 3% chance of happening. If it does, I will give my opinion at that time

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 12:41 AM
Lebron will be ranked higher than Kobe regardless of how many rings each ends up with.

If Bron wins 2+ rings, his stats will indeed put him above Kobe, regardless of the majority opinion on this site at this exact moment.

Bron's peak takes a complete dump on Kobe's. Whether or not you agree with that is up to the educated or those who have no idea how to measure individuals.

GREATNESS ONE
07-18-2011, 01:00 AM
:rolleyes:

Giantwarrior
07-18-2011, 01:03 AM
MVP's dont carry that much weight. I remember Karl Malone winning a few over MJ in the late 90's BS.

MJ should have at least 10 MVP's, but that is not always the case.

Avenged
07-18-2011, 01:15 AM
MVP's dont carry that much weight. I remember Karl Malone winning a few over MJ in the late 90's BS.

MJ should have at least 10 MVP's, but that is not always the case.

Probably not for reg. season MVP's.

But for Finals MVP's, the winner will have also won a championship so it definitely does have a lot of weight for active players who are already considered all-time greats.

THE MTL
07-18-2011, 01:15 AM
I was wondering this, His case is that with 7 Championships,No other player would come close to having such resume in Modern Basketball by the time it's all set and done for his career(other than MJ). If he plays 4 more years, all this would give him more 1st NBA teams, All-star seasons, All-time scoring records and possibly even more defensive team selections and so on...

1 Championship as the 2nd best player
2 Championships as the 1b Option
4 Championships as the Best Player

Or is this setting the bar too low for other players? Note: MJ's Bar is set too hight I doubt any player comes close to it. from Season Achievements to his Finals Performances.

Its not all about rings dude. Robert Horry has SEVEN of them. One of the winningest players of all time

JustBringIt
07-18-2011, 01:22 AM
Its not all about rings dude. Robert Horry has SEVEN of them. One of the winningest players of all time

We are talking about #1 or #2 options for their careers like top 50 players ever dude,


Everytime someone brings up robert horry or any other role player with alot of rings I just wanna :facepalm: them.

JustBringIt
07-18-2011, 01:24 AM
Lebron will be ranked higher than Kobe regardless of how many rings each ends up with.

:facepalm:

Warning!!!!!!!! Drugs are a hell of a drug

JustBringIt
07-18-2011, 01:25 AM
If Bron wins 2+ rings, his stats will indeed put him above Kobe, regardless of the majority opinion on this site at this exact moment.

Bron's peak takes a complete dump on Kobe's. Whether or not you agree with that is up to the educated or those who have no idea how to measure individuals.

2 rings puts Lebron above Kobe?? Hahahahaha no way in he'll especially now that he joined wade. If that was the case then wilt would be the greatest ever.

Kobe will forever be > Lebron

Kobe in his prime>>>> lebron

Jayb587
07-18-2011, 01:30 AM
Kobe is already top 3 ever thats based of basketball skill and accomplishments. No one is on Kobe's level as far as skill, he has mastered the game of basketball more than anyone ever has. Kobe's longevity coupled with his mastery of the game will prove that he is the greatest person ever to pick up a basketball. Check back when he retires at 40.

BlitzBlud4
07-18-2011, 01:33 AM
2 rings puts Lebron above Kobe?? Hahahahaha no way in he'll especially now that he joined wade. If that was the case then wilt would be the greatest ever.

Kobe will forever be > Lebron

Kobe in his prime>>>> lebron

Im no fan of either players but that is way too many arrows. Even if you personally feel Kobe prime will be better than LeBron prime, it wont be that big of a discrepancy. Honestly if anything, Lebron's best seasons have already passed Kobe's best seasons (stat wise)

Jayb587
07-18-2011, 01:38 AM
Lebrons best seasons have passed everyone stats wise except Wilt. Just because he can put his head down and bully ppl to the rim and handle the ball the entire game to inflate his assists numebrs doesnt mean anything.

NYtilIdie
07-18-2011, 01:43 AM
Rings are definitely over-valued when it comes to legacy arguments. It doesn't matter how many rings someone wins just as long as they have a ring it will improve their legacy, but if they don't have one it won't make or break their legacy. Just because Patrick Ewing or Karl Malone don't a ring doesn't mean either aren't top 20 players, sure their stock would have risen if they won a ring, but that doesn't discredit their respective legacies.

It wouldn't matter if Jordan would've only won 2 rings, he still would be considered the best to ever play the game due to his style of play and how he just completely changed the game of basketball as a whole and popularity in pop culture. You can't say "Player A>Player B because Player A has more rings" thats a horrible argument and here's where stats and such come into play. Rings certainly help a players legacy, but won't destroy it at the same time.

Everybody on here would take a prime Hakeem over Kobe any day regardless if Kobe has more rings because people know what kind of player Hakeem was.

JustBringIt
07-18-2011, 01:55 AM
Rings are definitely over-valued when it comes to legacy arguments. It doesn't matter how many rings someone wins just as long as they have a ring it will improve their legacy, but if they don't have one it won't make or break their legacy. Just because Patrick Ewing or Karl Malone don't a ring doesn't mean either aren't top 20 players, sure their stock would have risen if they won a ring, but that doesn't discredit their respective legacies.

It wouldn't matter if Jordan would've only won 2 rings, he still would be considered the best to ever play the game due to his style of play and how he just completely changed the game of basketball as a whole and popularity in pop culture. You can't say "Player A>Player B because Player A has more rings" thats a horrible argument and here's where stats and such come into play. Rings certainly help a players legacy, but won't destroy it at the same time.

Everybody on here would take a prime Hakeem over Kobe any day regardless if Kobe has more rings because people know what kind of player Hakeem was.

Umm not everyone would take Hakeem over Kobe I doubt even a few people would take Hakeem over Kobe besides the Kobe haters, I mean if Kobe would've had a better team when he averages 35-5-5 and 32-5-5 in those 2 seasons there is no doubt in my mind the lakers win 2 more title but well could've should've would've it never happened, but as far as your question goes give me Kobe and his career over hakeems any day of the week.

NYtilIdie
07-18-2011, 02:22 AM
[/B]

Umm not everyone would take Hakeem over Kobe I doubt even a few people would take Hakeem over Kobe besides the Kobe haters, I mean if Kobe would've had a better team when he averages 35-5-5 and 32-5-5 in those 2 seasons there is no doubt in my mind the lakers win 2 more title but well could've should've would've it never happened, but as far as your question goes give me Kobe and his career over hakeems any day of the week.

No, star SG's fill the league, having a dominant center who can control both sides of the ball is a rarity these days, plus having a post move thats unblockable. Hakeem was the best to ever play his position you will never be able to say that about Kobe.

But if Kobe had a better team there would be no reason to average 35 PPG, even if Kobe was still in his selfish phase there would be no need to take that many shots.

OA SLAY
07-18-2011, 02:27 AM
With this logic Robert Horry would crack the top 15... And if he comes outta retirement n wins 2 finals mvps he would slide into top 5.

C-Style
07-18-2011, 02:39 AM
With this logic Robert Horry would crack the top 15... And if he comes outta retirement n wins 2 finals mvps he would slide into top 5.

:facepalm: What role did Horry play??? was he the 2nd option? 1b? 1st???? most ******** comment ever

Jewelz0376
07-18-2011, 02:40 AM
With this logic Robert Horry would crack the top 15... And if he comes outta retirement n wins 2 finals mvps he would slide into top 5.

:punish


Its not all about rings dude. Robert Horry has SEVEN of them. One of the winningest players of all time

:punish

JustBringIt
07-18-2011, 05:13 AM
Cmon now..theres a guy named Kareem who begs to differ. Theres also a few other guys who might have something to say about that.

But, at least you can say Kobe's the 2nd greatest ever at his position, something you cant possibly say in good faith about Hakeem.

:clap:

Geargo Wallace
07-18-2011, 08:08 AM
2 rings puts Lebron above Kobe?? Hahahahaha no way in he'll especially now that he joined wade. If that was the case then wilt would be the greatest ever.

Kobe will forever be > Lebron

Kobe in his prime>>>> lebron
lol Kobe's prime couldn't carry LeBron's jockstrap.

Lebrons best seasons have passed everyone stats wise except Wilt. Just because he can put his head down and bully ppl to the rim and handle the ball the entire game to inflate his assists numebrs doesnt mean anything.
what's wrrong with that? Should he shrink and let ppl bully him?

[/B]
Umm not everyone would take Hakeem over Kobe I doubt even a few people would take Hakeem over Kobe besides the Kobe haters, I mean if Kobe would've had a better team when he averages 35-5-5 and 32-5-5 in those 2 seasons there is no doubt in my mind the lakers win 2 more title but well could've should've would've it never happened, but as far as your question goes give me Kobe and his career over hakeems any day of the week.
Kobe could never average those numbers for a whole season on a team that would win the championship.

:facepalm: What role did Horry play??? was he the 2nd option? 1b? 1st???? most ******** comment ever
Your reply just outdid that one.

nickdymez
07-18-2011, 11:08 AM
Reading this thread just goes to show how ignorant and full of hate people are on this site..The Same people that said Lebron is top 3 now, are saying that kobe with 7 rings wont even be top 10.. lmfao..

juno10
07-18-2011, 11:11 AM
Reading this thread just goes to show how ignorant and full of hate people are on this site..The Same people that said Lebron is top 3 now, are saying that kobe with 7 rings wont even be top 10.. lmfao..

i have read your posts in the past you really shouldn't be complaining about hate because your the definition of hater.

ackar
07-18-2011, 11:52 AM
I look at it like this. Kobe can become the second or third on the list of all time greats. but here is the weird thing about Kobes' legacy he will never be the consensesus Greatest Laker. It does not take away from him but his legacy as a whole is a paradox.

JustBringIt
07-18-2011, 01:02 PM
lol Kobe's prime couldn't carry LeBron's jockstrap.

what's wrrong with that? Should he shrink and let ppl bully him?

Kobe could never average those numbers for a whole season on a team that would win the championship.

Your reply just outdid that one.


Your right kobes prime doesn't stack up to lebrons prime, because his prime is simply better, I wonder how old you are? I bet you barely started etching basketball 2-3 years ago. Prime Kobe would kill Lebron.

And btw how do you know Kobe wouldn't average those numbers? He averages 30-7-6 one season what makes you think he couldn't do it with a championship team? You just a Lebron groupie

Swashcuff
07-18-2011, 01:13 PM
i have read your posts in the past you really shouldn't be complaining about hate because your the definition of hater.

:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 01:33 PM
2 things:

1- The Lakers will be hard pressed to win any more rings during Kobe's tenure. Their age and salary situation, along with their only young player missing time every year, make it very tough to see them winning it all again.

2- Kobe simply doesn't have the individual numbers to match the top few players. I can't see any way realistically (key word, so you can make up whatever dream scenario you want to counter) possible that Kobe can make it into the top 4 players. I personally don't see him going above #7-8, but that is me.

Kobe's longevity, awards and accolades, as well as TEAM success, are what get him there. But he has never had individual seasons that match many all time greats. And honestly, I can't think of more than one season where I thought he was the best player in the game. That can't be said of Hakeem, Russell, Wilt, Jabbar, Bird, or Hakeem, and maybe not even Magic.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 01:34 PM
we have seen so many of these debates over the past year, and now that its really slow due to the lockout, this debate is getting too much attention. Why can't we just appreciate that we are watching 2 top 10 players careers wind down instead of bickering that they should be one spot higher and you are a hater if you don't agree...

Sadds The Gr8
07-18-2011, 01:36 PM
no.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 01:36 PM
Reading this thread just goes to show how ignorant and full of hate people are on this site..The Same people that said Lebron is top 3 now, are saying that kobe with 7 rings wont even be top 10.. lmfao..

you will never understand that basketball is not an individual sport, will you?

The Lakers have won 5 rings with Kobe being a PART of them. This isn't tennis dude

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 01:43 PM
Your right kobes prime doesn't stack up to lebrons prime, because his prime is simply better, I wonder how old you are? I bet you barely started etching basketball 2-3 years ago. Prime Kobe would kill Lebron.

And btw how do you know Kobe wouldn't average those numbers? He averages 30-7-6 one season what makes you think he couldn't do it with a championship team? You just a Lebron groupie

you can speculate all you want on what Kobe's number would look like on a bad team. Fact is, the one year he had his best statistical season was when the Lakers were bad, and LeBron has had 3 seasons better than that season.

Kobe's highest PER: 28
Lebron has had 4 seasons better than that

Kobe's highest win share total: 15.3
Lebron has had 4 seasons better, including this one

Kobe's highest TS%: 58
LeBron has had 3 seasons above that

it goes on and on. The one thing Kobe has over LeBron is team success. And this is a team game, not an individual game.

LeBron's PER, TS%, ws/48, and nearly every other stat in the playoffs are also better than Kobe's playoff numbers.

But keep pointing to the rings that his awesome supporting cast (of which he was the supporting cast for 60% of them), achieved as a team.

There are so many here who don't have the slightest idea how to measure individuals. The second LeBron wins a ring, there is a legit argument he moves ahead of Kobe in all time rankings. And it will be painful to watch as his career moves ahead of Kobe's for some, and joyful for others.

smith&wesson
07-18-2011, 02:12 PM
in my eyes he is already the 2nd best player of all time. i dont care hate on it if you want.

Geargo Wallace
07-18-2011, 02:53 PM
Your right kobes prime doesn't stack up to lebrons prime, because his prime is simply better, I wonder how old you are? I bet you barely started etching basketball 2-3 years ago. Prime Kobe would kill Lebron.

And btw how do you know Kobe wouldn't average those numbers? He averages 30-7-6 one season what makes you think he couldn't do it with a championship team? You just a Lebron groupie
I'm 21 and got into basketball when I was around 10-11 years old.

What makes me think he couldn't average those numbers on a championship team? He's not getting any better maybe? He'd have to do it at the expense of his teammates if anything.

we have seen so many of these debates over the past year, and now that its really slow due to the lockout, this debate is getting too much attention. Why can't we just appreciate that we are watching 2 top 10 players careers wind down instead of bickering that they should be one spot higher and you are a hater if you don't agree...
There's not enough horses to beat dead.

smith&wesson
07-18-2011, 03:09 PM
there are players who had tremendouse basketball careers like karl malone, charles barkley etc... with out the rings they drop in all time rankings. if you look at charles barkleys career stats they are almost identical to tim duncans. and barkley gives up about 4 inches in height at least. but no one mentions him as the best 4 of all time. that title belongs to the 4 time champion, mr fundemental himself, tim duncan. long story short, stats dont tell all. they hold some merit sure, championships also hold a huge merit in terms of legacy.

untill lebron wins 3 ships or better he can not be in this discussion. it doesnt matter how good he is. his legacy will reflect on how many times he is able to win a ship playing along side another top 5 player in his prime. i dont care if he is the 2nd option. the 1st option it doesnt matter so long as he gets the job done..

and there is no way you guys can argue who is the best of all time. 2nd best... its just a discussion thats based on opinions. what i catagorize as the best might differ from your interpitation. for example bill russle has 11 rings so an arguement can be made that he was the best. kareem is all time scoring leader can it be argued that he is the best ? wilt chamberlin, oscar, larry bird, magic johnson... the list goes on and on and on. the only thing that seems to be common around here is that MJ was the best of all time. after that no one can seem to agree on how to rate a player so it is a never ending debate...

isiah thomas seems to think that inch for inch, pound for pound he was better then jordan.http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/I...-by-NBA-032911
http://www.scoresreport.com/2011/03/...agic-and-bird/

point is every one has theyre opinion and beleives theyre method of sizing up a players legacy is the right way.

LeGacy is Music
07-18-2011, 03:27 PM
Even though I hate Boston Bill Russel has 11 Championships how is he not the Greatest? Jordan has 6 Championships. If Jordan is the best then Kobe is 2nd best because he is the only one who comes close to Jordan. This Coming from a KNICK fan

smith&wesson
07-18-2011, 03:31 PM
Even though I hate Boston Bill Russel has 11 Championships how is he not the Greatest? Jordan has 6 Championships. If Jordan is the best then Kobe is 2nd best because he is the only one who comes close to Jordan. This Coming from a KNICK fan

bill russle won 11 ships. not all were in the nba though. so that is an arguement in itself.

the point is some ppl will point to stats and win shares, others look at acheivments like mvp's, all star apearances, scoring titles, all nba and all defensive teams. other ppl look at the amount of ships a player has. in this case robert horry can be mentioned which is why its flawed to ONLY look at ships.

the point is every one's perception of the "best" is different.

DCB/LAL
07-18-2011, 03:45 PM
HA HA LOL...


The very fact of people saying Kobe isn't because of his stat etc... and then go and throw Lebron(whom hasn't accomplished half of what Kobe has) in the Convo is straight up ignorant.

GREATNESS ONE
07-18-2011, 04:35 PM
HA HA LOL...


The very fact of people saying Kobe isn't because of his stat etc... and then go and throw Lebron(whom hasn't accomplished half of what Kobe has) in the Convo is straight up ignorant.

:drool::drool::drool::drool::drool: @ your Sig

CHANGO
07-18-2011, 04:46 PM
You call others morons when they provides statistics and solid arguments, but you don't read what you write. :facepalm:


So do those meaningless stats make lebron>kobe? Kobe would **** on lebron in a 1 on 1 game hell id bet he could even beat him Now. Lebron is a stat whore get it through your head There isnt anything special about him. Now Jordan and kobe are special, and yeah championships are a team accomplishment but they simply dont win those 5 championships without kobe. **** look at lebron he had the best team last year and he couldnt win because he doesnt have it in him..... Hes overrated!!!!!!! Psd is the most moronic forum in terms of ranking all-time players. And lol at your other post how you put Larry bird as the best player when magic was the best in the league haha and that's why he ranks higher then bird all-time.
If Kobe wins 2 more championships as 1a) or 1b) then yes he will be the 2nd best player ever. Oh and btw Kobe>bird

What the hell is that? :facepalm:

naps
07-18-2011, 04:49 PM
you will never understand that basketball is not an individual sport, will you?

The Lakers have won 5 rings with Kobe being a PART of them. This isn't tennis dude

Yea, I don't get it either. There are some people who think team success = Individual success. I was debating with JB in another thread. He think Dirk is the best player on the planet now because Mavs won the championship.

naps
07-18-2011, 04:52 PM
So do those meaningless stats make lebron>kobe? Kobe would **** on lebron in a 1 on 1 game hell id bet he could even beat him Now. Lebron is a stat whore get it through your head There isnt anything special about him. Now Jordan and kobe are special, and yeah championships are a team accomplishment but they simply dont win those 5 championships without kobe. **** look at lebron he had the best team last year and he couldnt win because he doesnt have it in him..... Hes overrated!!!!!!! Psd is the most moronic forum in terms of ranking all-time players. And lol at your other post how you put Larry bird as the best player when magic was the best in the league haha and that's why he ranks higher then bird all-time.
If Kobe wins 2 more championships as 1a) or 1b) then yes he will be the 2nd best player ever. Oh and btw Kobe>bird

:laugh2: We got a winner here. Best poster on PSD.

lakersfan01
07-18-2011, 04:54 PM
For a start he's not gonna win 2 more titles. You can also argue his last title Gasol should've been the finals MVP.

His first three titles he was the clear cut number 2 as well.

Well said.

The Final Boss
07-18-2011, 05:02 PM
Kobe's in his mansion getting a half & half laughing with a bazillion dollars in the bank while you people who are probably fat, working dead end jobs, and wearing his sneakers are debating his status among the game's elite. Its getting embarrassing, guys.

DCB/LAL
07-18-2011, 05:03 PM
Yea, I don't get it either. There are some people who think team success = Individual success. I was debating with JB in another thread. He think Dirk is the best player on the planet now because Mavs won the championship.

Its part of being a great player... You LEAD your team to victory. Kobe did it, MJ did it,Bird/Magic etc... while others fail take for example Lebron.. he didn't although I dont place the blame on him cause he just PROVED what EVERYONE already knew that he is a second option on that HEAT team and it was Wade who played pretty darn good but got hurt but it was him who ultimately failed.


One thing you'll notice about most all-time greats at the top is they have a ring or rings. Is Duncan better than Malone without his rings? IDK but it sure makes for a harder debate(even if u dont think Duncan is better now without the Rings for Duncan would it be as close a debat?) Thats just an example many more u can use.

naps
07-18-2011, 05:08 PM
Not my fault your a Lebron groupie and a Kobe hater to face the facts and the truth, I know it hurts buddy but it's really sad that everytime there is a Kobe thread you have to come in and troll.

lmao! What the hell are you on here? Where did I troll? Your posts are jokes. You are quoting Hawkeye who's basing his posts with facts, numbers and all while you are going with your blind opinions putting Jordan and Kobe in the same sentence and saying LeBron is overrated. Just shut up and GTFO kobephile!

EDIT: You are calling everyone a troll who's not agreeing with you? WOW! That's pathetic!

Marlin234
07-18-2011, 05:14 PM
Lmfao plain and simple.. NO. he's a top player. But dude ur just writing of Larry bird, magic, and all the old school greats

naps
07-18-2011, 05:17 PM
Its part of being a great player... You LEAD your team to victory. Kobe did it, MJ did it,Bird/Magic etc... while others fail take for example Lebron.. he didn't although I dont place the blame on him cause he just PROVED what EVERYONE already knew that he is a second option on that HEAT team and it was Wade who played pretty darn good but got hurt but it was him who ultimately failed.


One thing you'll notice about most all-time greats at the top is they have a ring or rings. Is Duncan better than Malone without his rings? IDK but it sure makes for a harder debate(even if u dont think Duncan is better now without the Rings for Duncan would it be as close a debat?) Thats just an example many more u can use.


Sure team success is a part of individual legacy. But some posters make it seem like that's the only thing that determines someone is better than others. Kobe been very fortunate to play in great teams for the most part of his career. You just can't win championships regardless of how great you are, you gotta have a great team around you. If we look at the past champions we can see that.
This was the first time LeBron is on a great team. He was only two games from winning it all. He's only 26 and he's have another 8/9 years to cement his legacy. So bringing LeBron in this discussion is pointless. He's nowhere close to finishing his career, it's not fair.

Geargo Wallace
07-18-2011, 05:21 PM
I don't feel like recycling all the facts that prove LeBron is a better basketball player than Kobe. I'm gonna' let it sit for a while.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 05:31 PM
Dude whats with the WinShares and PER and all that other nonsensical stats you use? You think thats any way to judge a player's greatness? If PER or WINSHARES were an accurate way of judging players then the top 10 for each category should be the top 10 greatest players to ever play. The fact that theres no coorelation to high PER or WINSHARES or any of those other made up formulas to the actual greatest players should tell you that those stats are merely incidental and circumstantial when judging on a player's greatness.

if you don't understand those statistics, or they simply don't show that your player is superior, that isn't my fault. Those same stats you are crapping on show us MJ, Kareem, Wilt, were all TOP players.

What do you judge on? Your eyes? Than you need to re-adjust your rankings to players you have seen play. That also means you have no business doing all time rankings. Do you base them on championships? That is a team thing.

Make a case for Kobe being a top 2-3 player. Good luck

Marlin234
07-18-2011, 05:31 PM
Why not? When Kobe retires his career will be so far and ahead better then bird and magics

Right because he only had the best center in the game in his prime at the time.. You put Dwight Howard with wade and take out lebron out of that formula. I bet they would win same amount if not more rings together. Wade and shaq did it together already in his later years so don't try to counter that.

The point is Kobe is great but quite frankly he's nothing more special and lebron, wade, dirk and any stars in the league today.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by JustBringIt


So do those meaningless stats make lebron>kobe?

Yes, LeBron has had 3 seasons better than Kobe has ever performed. Hence why many of us claim LeBron has already had a higher peak.


Kobe would **** on lebron in a 1 on 1 game hell id bet he could even beat him Now.

If that's how you judge a player, I would like to refer you to playgrounds in NYC, where there are a handful of players who would crap on either. Are they the best players in the world? No. They are the best 1-1 players. Basketball is a team game last I checked.


Lebron is a stat whore get it through your head There isnt anything special about him.

Your opinion, not shared by many, including myself.


Now Jordan and kobe are special, and yeah championships are a team accomplishment but they simply dont win those 5 championships without kobe.

They are special because they were part of great teams? Individuals make themselves special. Again, with the ring thing to measure players. Its one of many ways to measure a player. And as I said, when LeBron wins a ring or two (none of you can think he won't, if you don't, you are naive), he passes Kobe because that part of the measurement is now gone.


**** look at lebron he had the best team last year and he couldnt win because he doesnt have it in him..... Hes overrated!!!!!!!

take a deep breath, you can take the summer off from hating LeBron, its ok.



Psd is the most moronic forum in terms of ranking all-time players.

totally agree.


And lol at your other post how you put Larry bird as the best player when magic was the best in the league haha and that's why he ranks higher then bird all-time.

Between 1980-1990, Bird held the "best player in the world" title plenty of times. What is your age?



If Kobe wins 2 more championships as 1a) or 1b) then yes he will be the 2nd best player ever.

Lots of if's. They hold zip water in arguments


Oh and btw Kobe>bird

well, you had your vote in the all time rankings. Up to you who you voted for. Bird won chips at his absolute peak. Kobe did not. Bird's peak seasons were stronger. You obviously won't agree with me with your blinders on, but I could care less honestly.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 05:41 PM
Yea, I don't get it either. There are some people who think team success = Individual success. I was debating with JB in another thread. He think Dirk is the best player on the planet now because Mavs won the championship.

Dirk is a perfect example. Does winning rings mean something to your all time ranking and legacy? Sure. They have the exact same weight as awards, accolades, stats, dominance amongst peers, peaks, longevity, and more. Dirk is no better now than he was 2 months ago. Kobe wouldn't be any lesser of a player with 0 rings, and won't be a better player with 10 more.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 05:42 PM
At this point sure you can say that but it doesn't necessarily mean it's true, but Kobe in his prime absolutely ***** on Lebron, that's why he was the consenceus best player for 6-8 years(outside of psd)

prove your opinions instead of stating them like they are a fact.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 05:45 PM
I actually think its funny that many Lakers fans can't even see that in Kobe's peak, he didn't come close to winning a ring. He won his rings as a 2nd banana as a youngster still growing into himself, and 2 more on the decline when he was given the best interior in the NBA. I am not claiming he wasn't arguably the most important piece in any given ring year, but he didn't win a ring in his peak.

Anyways, back to topic. Kobe is in decline. He is borderline top 10 currently (I have him at #10). I can't see any way imagineable, unless he found the fountain of youth in Germany, that he moves up another 5-6 spots.

The Final Boss
07-18-2011, 06:06 PM
Kobe Bryant would **** on any SF/SG that's ever played the game in 1 on 1.

The Final Boss
07-18-2011, 06:32 PM
Bryant's ego is legendary but still not as big as Jordan's which got his father murdered according to reports from the FBI. Funny how that isn't held against him.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 06:43 PM
And it's sad that you hawkeye have to knit pick everything kObe does? It's like his championships are flawed? Let it go hawkeye Kobe will be a top 3 player when he's done, for crying out loud lots of people again outside of psd have Kobe #5 or better, i don't get it, it like Kobe bRings something out in you, and if bird was the best player from 1980-1990, then why in the world wasn't he ranked higher then magic on the all-time list? Please explain...

championships are team accomplishments. I could care less what people outside or inside of PSD have.

Kobe brings more out of the overprotective Laker fans than he brings out of anyone.

You misquoted me on the last part.

naps
07-18-2011, 06:59 PM
Yeah hawkeye looks really smart when he says with one ring Lebron>Kobe hahaha seriously?? Like really? Who the **** is kobephile? And I'm not calling everyone a troll just you and that one troll wanna be laker fan since he's always trashing on Kobe. Oh one more thing if anyone is gtfo then it's you. You never provide any valid points you always go by what other people say

Your posts are laughable and immature to say the least. Just look back and re-read your posts...oh well you won't realize it now because you wouldn't write them if you knew how immature those were. Basically you are attacking everyone who is not agreeing to be a kobephile.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 07:13 PM
Yeah hawkeye looks really smart when he says with one ring Lebron>Kobe hahaha seriously?? Like really? Who the **** is kobephile? And I'm not calling everyone a troll just you and that one troll wanna be laker fan since he's always trashing on Kobe. Oh one more thing if anyone is gtfo then it's you. You never provide any valid points you always go by what other people say

you haven't made a valid point outside the Lakers have won 5 rings with Kobe on their 15 man roster.

Dig deeper.

Geargo Wallace
07-18-2011, 07:28 PM
Bryant's ego is legendary but still not as big as Jordan's which got his father murdered according to reports from the FBI. Funny how that isn't held against him.

dude wtf? Why would that be held against Jordan? wtf are you getting at? Jordan's dad was murdered by a couple of stupid teenagers at a truck rest stop. I don't know why you brought up personal issues. You wouldn't want one of us to bring up Colorado, would you?

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 07:29 PM
That's the only argument I need hawkeye!!!!
But if you need one more just look at kobes resume it's just overall errrr then birds already should I move on??

Oh and no Lebron won't be > Kobe ever ofcourse unless he wins 5 or more championships and atleast 3 as the man, idk man but everything you say always has flaws in terms of talking about Kobe

you just don't get it. This isn't an individual sport. If we were talking about tennis, then yes, championship are the measurement. This is basketball.

You don't understand how to measure stats, or competition.

How old are you? Serious question.

Everything you say has one consistent flaw. Championships. And you are trying to rate individuals in a team sport. It doesn't work that way.

If you have nothing else to offer outside of the Lakers success, we are done.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 07:30 PM
Tell my hawkeye if bird was absolutely the best player for 10 years why was he never able to win more championships with that stacked team?
Oh hawkeye

go back and read my post again. I feel no need to respond to someone who can't read a post correctly because they are so full of Laker pride they can't finish it before typing in a flurry

Geargo Wallace
07-18-2011, 07:33 PM
Tell my hawkeye if bird was absolutely the best player for 10 years why was he never able to win more championships with that stacked team?
Oh hawkeye

He won 2 ships during his 3 year peak in 84 and 86. There were many stacked teams in that decade, with many all time greats peaking. Magic, Kareem, Moses, Michael, Hakeem,...etc. all names that this list has/will witness(ed). The 80's were awesome. 3 ships and could have been more.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 07:41 PM
Are you serious haven't I mention his all-NBA teams? His stats? Records? Defensive all NBA teams? All-star appearance? His overall career? You either don't read or can't see it's as simple as that. Oh and championships matter alot Karl Malone would easily be a top 10-8 player if he had a couple of rings he would be considered the best PF ever, Barkley would be a top 15-18 player with a championship instead of 20-30 I can bring up alot more examples but I'm just waisting my time. An you don't thing titles mean alot because the players you favor have no chance of surpassing Kobe let alone other without those rings

his stats show the he is inferior to LeBron. He has been around forever, so LeBron hasn't had the chance to catch the all NBA team. Defensive teams are the biggest joke of all.

Where did I say championships don't matter? I am simply saying there are many here, including you, that put waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much stock into them.

The moment LeBron wins a ring, that portion of the equation used to define individual players is now equalized. Therefore, the pure dominance in stats, and all other categories (you really don't think the mindless voters will still keep LeBron on the all defensive teams long after he shouldn't be like they did Kobe) will result in Kobe being passed.

Kobe is around #8-12, depending on your opinion. I can't see him getting any higher.

You sure are an angry young man, aren't you?

Bruno
07-18-2011, 07:41 PM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;18580277]I actually think its funny that many Lakers fans can't even see that in Kobe's peak, he didn't come close to winning a ring. He won his rings as a 2nd banana as a youngster still growing into himself, and 2 more on the decline when he was given the best interior in the NBA. I am not claiming he wasn't arguably the most important piece in any given ring year, but he didn't win a ring in his peak.
QUOTE]

The stats suggest otherwise.
Bryant posted a playoff PER of 26.8 in the 2009 playoffs, the highest of his career. Same year he won his first finals MVP.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

To put that chanpionship-run PER of 26.8 into perspective: It was half a point higher than Larry Birds all-time playoff high in PER, 26.3 ('84). http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html

Bryants '09 career playoff high in PER @ 26.8 also tops Magic Johnsons highest all time post-season PER of 26.2 ('87) by .6.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html

If Kobe peak was over in '09 then how was he able to post playoff PER numbers that peak that of Bird or Magics highest all-time production? Doesn't just apply to PER either; Bryant's '09 playoff WS of 4.7 is also identical to Birds all time high in playoff WS, 4.7 ('84). Magics all time high in playoff WS is 4.0 ('88). Bryant tops or ties both ledgends statistically peak playoff production.

His '09 WS/48 of .238, the second highest of his carrer also surpasses the career post-season highs for Bird, who paeked at .236 in ('84). Birds peak of .2.36 trails Bryants top year .260 ('01) by a more substantial margin than his ''09 margin.

Bryant finished the 2009 campaign tied for the 5th highest PER in the NBA. Bryant posted the 2nd highest WS of the playoffs; losing out to James by .01 of a point (4.7 to 4.8, James). His playoff WS of 4.7 ties Bird, and tops Magics career highes, yet it was only good enough for 2nd best that year, due to James.

Anyways, looking at those numbers, I can't see how you can say Kobe wasn't on a peak year in 2009. His numbers matched or bested the all-time high figures for Bird and Magic, he won finals MVP, and the Lakers were champs.

It wasn't until 2010 when Bryant was dealing with the broken finger on the shooting hand/knee/ankle that his production took a big hit.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 07:42 PM
Kareem prime was just about over during the 80's same goes for moses Malone, Hakeem and Jordan didn't establish themselves until the 90's so, with all that said yes bird isn't as great as psd makes him out to be. It's sad really that people can't see through their hatred towards a player

how old are you? I honestly want to know if you even watched basketball in the 80's.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 07:45 PM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;18580277]I actually think its funny that many Lakers fans can't even see that in Kobe's peak, he didn't come close to winning a ring. He won his rings as a 2nd banana as a youngster still growing into himself, and 2 more on the decline when he was given the best interior in the NBA. I am not claiming he wasn't arguably the most important piece in any given ring year, but he didn't win a ring in his peak.
QUOTE]

The stats suggest otherwise.
Bryant posted a playoff PER of 26.8 in the 2009 playoffs, the highest of his career. Same year he won his first finals MVP.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

To put that chanpionship-run PER of 26.8 into perspective: It was half a point higher than Larry Birds all-time playoff high in PER, 26.3 ('84). http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html

Bryants '09 career playoff high in PER @ 26.8 also tops Magic Johnsons highest all time post-season PER of 26.2 ('87) by .6.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html

If Kobe peak was over in '09 then how was he able to post playoff PER numbers that peak that of Bird or Magics highest all-time production? Doesn't just apply to PER either; Bryant's '09 playoff WS of 4.7 is also identical to Birds all time high in playoff WS, 4.7 ('84). Magics all time high in playoff WS is 4.0 ('88). Bryant tops or ties both ledgends statistically peak playoff production.

His '09 WS/48 of .238, the second highest of his carrer also surpasses the career post-season highs for Bird, who paeked at .236 in ('84). Birds peak of .2.36 trails Bryants top year .260 ('01) by a more substantial margin than his ''09 margin.

Bryant finished the 2009 campaign tied for the 5th highest PER in the NBA. Bryant posted the 2nd highest WS of the playoffs; losing out to James by .01 of a point (4.7 to 4.8, James). His playoff WS of 4.7 ties Bird, and tops Magics career highes, yet it was only good enough for 2nd best that year, due to James.

Anyways, looking at those numbers, I can't see how you can say Kobe wasn't on a peak year in 2009. His numbers matched or bested the all-time high figures for Bird and Magic, he won finals MVP, and the Lakers were champs.

It wasn't until 2010 when Bryant was dealing with the broken finger on the shooting hand/knee/ankle that his production took a big hit.

long story short, its because I don't separate the regular season from the playoffs when looking at an entire year for a player. Kobe's best year was 05-06' easily. The regular season corresponding to the playoff year you are pointing out shows the Kobe was on cruise control, and that just isn't a peak year when the dust settles.

The Final Boss
07-18-2011, 07:50 PM
dude wtf? Why would that be held against Jordan? wtf are you getting at? Jordan's dad was murdered by a couple of stupid teenagers at a truck rest stop. I don't know why you brought up personal issues. You wouldn't want one of us to bring up
Colorado, would you?

You can do all the private investigating you want there, Thomas. It doesn't change the fact that the FBI clearly stated in multiple reports that Jordan's ego led to his refusal to pay gambling debts in Atlantic City, New Jersey.


* btw lol @ your willingness to bring up Colorado. Do you honestly believe Bryant sexual assaulted a chic? She willingly gave it up to the champ and was subsequently urged on according to taps, by her lawyers and friends looking for a payday.

Pull out the old mustache comb, don the Tigers ball cap, jump in the 308 GTS and come up with something a little more substantial.

You probably believe OJ is innocent and that Santa is indeed a jolly ol' man...

evadatam5150
07-18-2011, 07:55 PM
For a start he's not gonna win 2 more titles. You can also argue his last title Gasol should've been the finals MVP.

His first three titles he was the clear cut number 2 as well.

You can also argue that Bryant should have a total of 3 League MVP's and he didn't get them because of league politics period.. Sure dude had a horrible PR rep for numerous reasons and it's my opinion that off the court issues caused a serious backlash that affected his on court accomplishments.. It is what it is...

SteBO
07-18-2011, 07:57 PM
You can also argue that Bryant should have a total of 3 League MVP's and he didn't get them because of league politics period.. Sure dude had a horrible PR rep for numerous reasons and it's my opinion that off the court issues caused a serious backlash that affected his on court accomplishments.. It is what it is...
Hence why speaking in hypotheticals is pointless to begin with.

JordansBulls
07-18-2011, 08:03 PM
Kobe Bryant would **** on any SF/SG that's ever played the game in 1 on 1.

I doubt it.

Swashcuff
07-18-2011, 08:04 PM
You can also argue that Bryant should have a total of 3 League MVP's and he didn't get them because of league politics period.. Sure dude had a horrible PR rep for numerous reasons and it's my opinion that off the court issues caused a serious backlash that affected his on court accomplishments.. It is what it is...

Can you please make that argument? I'd be interested in hearing it.

SteBO
07-18-2011, 08:10 PM
You regard stats as the end all be all don't you? If that wa the case wilt and Oscar Robertson would be the greatest ever, kobe in the #8-12 range? Hmm sure on psd lol anywhere else he's easily a top 6 player ever and first you tell me you don't think rings should be held at such high standards but yet you think Lebron>Kobe with 1 championship hahaha you just contradicted yourself,
Oh and it's simple Kobe was an elite defender for so many years that he obviously deserved the all NBA defense awards besides this past year but you can't say the same about Lebron his defense is overrated and why even bring Lebron in this conversation? It's not our fault he isn't getting publicity at the moment. Poor you, you'll never realize how wrong you are in terms of how you think your methods of ranking players is correct, not saying mine is either but atleast I don't try to make it a fact like you do. You know whattells me you don't really like Kobe, it's simple its the fact that you said there is virtually nothing he can do to move up when clearly there are lots of other things he can do to solidify his spot as a top 2-3 player ever. Haters gonna hate
Your last sentence tells me everything I need to know about where you stand regarding the lakers, which I can guarantee you I'll keep in mind.

Hawkeye says championships shouldn't be held in high regard, and went on to say that LeBron with 1 ring would be better than Kobe with 5 rings, WHEN STATISTICAL DOMINANCE AND OTHER CATEGORIES ARE FACTORED IN. I guess you conveniently left out that bolded part huh? Therefore, how is contradicting?

I'm not going to get into senseless jibberish regarding LeBrons' defense, because the fact you think his D is overrated is laughable at best. Check stats and you'll see for yourself. Hopefully, your mindset will change, but you're blinded by your Laker pride to even realize that or at least take the time to analyze and look it up for yourself.

Are you aware of how old Kobe is? It's been made clear to many on this site, the outsiders, and even bigger Laker homers that this is the case, hence the reason the odds of him movin' on up are slim. It isn't a matter of liking Kobe or not, it's reality.

NBAfan4life
07-18-2011, 08:36 PM
Hawkeye15 is generally a very respected poster, but when he bashes Kobe and so easily has his idol bird above Kobe debate over. James may very well win and have the longevity to move ahead of Kobe. Some of things you hold against Kobe the some of the same can be said of Bird. Even worse at least Kobe stepped his game up in the playoffs when it mattered. Did Larry (I'm lower than Kobe when it is all said and done) Bird step his game up in the playoffs?

SteBO
07-18-2011, 09:00 PM
I did but still 1 ring isn't 5 and last time I checked the amount of rings you have make you > then the other to some extent as well of other things. Stats alone won't really help here ofcourse Kobe won't have the same stats in terms of rebounds well Lebron is just simply bigger and stronger so yeah for assist you have to have shooters and be in the right system to have great assist numbers and the triangle wasn't that, but who am I to change someone mind?

All I know is that Kobe can do alot to move up no matter his age atleast yet, he's still a top 2-3 player, sure he struggled last year but alot of things had to do with that i don't think age was a big factor in that though and I think Kobe will prove that this upcoming season with an MVP type season maybe 27-6-6 while shooting a career high%


Oh and now because Lebron blocked alot of shots he's an elite defender? stats sure can be deceiving
I don't know if you've watched the Heat or LeBron alot last year, but statistically and by just simply watching, LeBron is an elite defender. How can you even dispute this? It's unfortunate he couldn't do this in the Finals, but oh well. Rings can play a factor, but not as big a factor as you're making it. I think Kobe has 2-3 good years left, simply because he's Kobe Bryant, but I just don't know if he can move up. It's tough to contemplate because I've always enjoyed watching Kobe as an NBA fan, but I'm just not convinced.

evadatam5150
07-18-2011, 09:06 PM
Your last sentence tells me everything I need to know about where you stand regarding the lakers, which I can guarantee you I'll keep in mind.

Hawkeye says championships shouldn't be held in high regard, and went on to say that LeBron with 1 ring would be better than Kobe with 5 rings, WHEN STATISTICAL DOMINANCE AND OTHER CATEGORIES ARE FACTORED IN. I guess you conveniently left out that bolded part huh? Therefore, how is contradicting?

I'm not going to get into senseless jibberish regarding LeBrons' defense, because the fact you think his D is overrated is laughable at best. Check stats and you'll see for yourself. Hopefully, your mindset will change, but you're blinded by your Laker pride to even realize that or at least take the time to analyze and look it up for yourself.

Are you aware of how old Kobe is? It's been made clear to many on this site, the outsiders, and even bigger Laker homers that this is the case, hence the reason the odds of him movin' on up are slim. It isn't a matter of liking Kobe or not, it's reality.

The bold area is a bit myopic if you ask me.. All things consider you have to take into account the total body of work for both players when comparing them.. That being said it's tough to make an argument for any guy as one is nearing the end of his career while the other is in the midst of his.. Time will tell who truly had more of an impact on the game as team players and as individuals.. The bold statement, as I said, is a tad myopic because it almost entirely dismisses Kobe Bryant's accomplishments as a complete basketball player.. One can certainly trivialize Kobe Bryant's accomplishment but usually one does so for ulterior motives such as dislike or hating on a guy.. I don't really think you or Hawkeye are doing this but let's face it we see it everyday in here.. To say that Lebron will exceed any accomplishment Kobe has made if he simply wins one Championship really is just a narrow view of a would of could of should of scenario that is continually played out here.. Quite simply put the whole things needs to pan out before any real comparison is made..

CHANGO
07-18-2011, 09:07 PM
i did but still 1 ring isn't 5 and last time i checked the amount of rings you have make you > then the other to some extent as well of other things. Stats alone won't really help here ofcourse kobe won't have the same stats in terms of rebounds well lebron is just simply bigger and stronger so yeah for assist you have to have shooters and be in the right system to have great assist numbers and the triangle wasn't that, but who am i to change someone mind?

All i know is that kobe can do alot to move up no matter his age atleast yet, he's still a top 2-3 player, sure he struggled last year but alot of things had to do with that i don't think age was a big factor in that though and i think kobe will prove that this upcoming season with an mvp type season maybe 27-6-6 while shooting a career high%


oh and now because lebron blocked alot of shots he's an elite defender? Stats sure can be deceiving

lol...

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 09:29 PM
Hawkeye15 is generally a very respected poster, but when he bashes Kobe and so easily has his idol bird above Kobe debate over. James may very well win and have the longevity to move ahead of Kobe. Some of things you hold against Kobe the some of the same can be said of Bird. Even worse at least Kobe stepped his game up in the playoffs when it mattered. Did Larry (I'm lower than Kobe when it is all said and done) Bird step his game up in the playoffs?

Thank you for the compliment.

Look, we are all here giving our opinions. To be a consensus top 10 player of all time, you have to be an unreal player. Kobe has been unreal over his career, and its been a joy to watch him. He is a great, great player, who should be talked about as one of the best.

Now, when we move into the top 2-10 of all time, we can do nothing but be subjective. It should be assumed that anyone talked about in this breath is an unreal player with gifts and accomplishments that anyone should admire.

Bird did have his faults. As does Kobe. I have made it very clear, that I have an emotional and irrational attachment to Bird, and I basically put him over anything that I value as equal because of. Bird won 2 rings in his absolute peak. Against stacked competition. I have no problem with someone with basketball intellect making a case for Kobe over Bird. I may not agree with it, but I will respect it. However, in order for me to entertain that argument, there needs to be substance. Not some dude telling me that Kobe is better because....

As for the LeBron thing, I will openly admit that if LeBron gets hurt next year, and never returns to form, he will never have a chance at catching/passing Kobe. But can anyone actually say with honesty that the Heat won't get the equation right and win a ring or two at least? His pure statistical dominance and dominance amongst peers, along with the award tally he will most likely have when his career is done, may be assumed, but also likely. He passes Kobe.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 09:31 PM
The bold area is a bit myopic if you ask me.. All things consider you have to take into account the total body of work for both players when comparing them.. That being said it's tough to make an argument for any guy as one is nearing the end of his career while the other is in the midst of his.. Time will tell who truly had more of an impact on the game as team players and as individuals.. The bold statement, as I said, is a tad myopic because it almost entirely dismisses Kobe Bryant's accomplishments as a complete basketball player.. One can certainly trivialize Kobe Bryant's accomplishment but usually one does so for ulterior motives such as dislike or hating on a guy.. I don't really think you or Hawkeye are doing this but let's face it we see it everyday in here.. To say that Lebron will exceed any accomplishment Kobe has made if he simply wins one Championship really is just a narrow view of a would of could of should of scenario that is continually played out here.. Quite simply put the whole things needs to pan out before any real comparison is made..

The overall point you are making with this post I agree with 100%. Let's see how this plays out...

SteBO
07-18-2011, 10:07 PM
The bold area is a bit myopic if you ask me.. All things consider you have to take into account the total body of work for both players when comparing them.. That being said it's tough to make an argument for any guy as one is nearing the end of his career while the other is in the midst of his.. Time will tell who truly had more of an impact on the game as team players and as individuals.. The bold statement, as I said, is a tad myopic because it almost entirely dismisses Kobe Bryant's accomplishments as a complete basketball player.. One can certainly trivialize Kobe Bryant's accomplishment but usually one does so for ulterior motives such as dislike or hating on a guy.. I don't really think you or Hawkeye are doing this but let's face it we see it everyday in here.. To say that Lebron will exceed any accomplishment Kobe has made if he simply wins one Championship really is just a narrow view of a would of could of should of scenario that is continually played out here.. Quite simply put the whole things needs to pan out before any real comparison is made..
Oh no, this isn't to knock Kobe in any way shape or form, I was just trying to display the hole in the argument which that poster was presenting. At the end of the day, we'll have to see how everything unfolds. I don't have a crystal ball, so there really is no telling what can happen, especially with this lockout, which could very well change things. Like what was said above, we'll just have to wait and see, hopefully sooner than later.

CowboysKB24
07-18-2011, 10:17 PM
It isn't likely to happen....

NBAfan4life
07-18-2011, 10:26 PM
Thank you for the compliment.

Look, we are all here giving our opinions. To be a consensus top 10 player of all time, you have to be an unreal player. Kobe has been unreal over his career, and its been a joy to watch him. He is a great, great player, who should be talked about as one of the best.

Now, when we move into the top 2-10 of all time, we can do nothing but be subjective. It should be assumed that anyone talked about in this breath is an unreal player with gifts and accomplishments that anyone should admire.

Bird did have his faults. As does Kobe. I have made it very clear, that I have an emotional and irrational attachment to Bird, and I basically put him over anything that I value as equal because of. Bird won 2 rings in his absolute peak. Against stacked competition. I have no problem with someone with basketball intellect making a case for Kobe over Bird. I may not agree with it, but I will respect it. However, in order for me to entertain that argument, there needs to be substance. Not some dude telling me that Kobe is better because....

As for the LeBron thing, I will openly admit that if LeBron gets hurt next year, and never returns to form, he will never have a chance at catching/passing Kobe. But can anyone actually say with honesty that the Heat won't get the equation right and win a ring or two at least? His pure statistical dominance and dominance amongst peers, along with the award tally he will most likely have when his career is done, may be assumed, but also likely. He passes Kobe.

I think Kobe will be the 2nd greatest shooting guard if he can play out his contract at an all star level, and when I say all star level I mean deserves to be there not voted in because he is Kobe.

I feel Bird and Shaq are passable if his contract is played out at a high level. I feel the same way about Magic even though I know I'm in the minority on that. I sort of feel the same way about Russel except he is the ultimate champion so I understand if he is always ranked lower.

For me that is it. I highly doubt Kobe can ever be ranked higher MJ, Wilt, or KAJ.

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 10:30 PM
I think Kobe will be the 2nd greatest shooting guard if he can play out his contract at an all star level, and when I say all star level I mean deserves to be there not voted in because he is Kobe.

I feel Bird and Shaq are passable if his contract is played out at a high level. I feel the same way about Magic even though I know I'm in the minority on that. I sort of feel the same way about Russel except he is the ultimate champion so I understand if he is always ranked lower.

For me that is it. I highly doubt Kobe can ever be ranked higher MJ, Wilt, or KAJ.

I think Kobe is already the 2nd best SG of all time. I don't think he stands a chance in hell of passing MJ, and its honestly impossible.

I honestly admitted my irrational opinion of Bird. I have no problem with a poster making and ACTUAL case for Kobe over him. However, there are a few things Bird did in his shorter career that Kobe can't match. However, Kobe's sustained dominance and longevity also can not be ignored.

I don't see Kobe passing MJ, Wilt, Jabbar, Russell. I also don't think he will pass Magic or Bird, but that is honestly subjective.

showtym24
07-18-2011, 10:55 PM
I think Kobe is already the 2nd best SG of all time. I don't think he stands a chance in hell of passing MJ, and its honestly impossible.

I honestly admitted my irrational opinion of Bird. I have no problem with a poster making and ACTUAL case for Kobe over him. However, there are a few things Bird did in his shorter career that Kobe can't match. However, Kobe's sustained dominance and longevity also can not be ignored.

I don't see Kobe passing MJ, Wilt, Jabbar, Russell. I also don't think he will pass Magic or Bird, but that is honestly subjective.

He also was never gonna win a title without shaq. Sorry i had too. :D

Cano4prez
07-18-2011, 11:29 PM
He also was never gonna win a title without shaq. Sorry i had too. :D

Luckily for Kobe he was able to have the 2nd best PF on his team along with a stacked roster

tredigs
07-18-2011, 11:52 PM
"Solidifies" him in the sense of having a more accomplished career, sure - I think many could agree to that, or at least respect the argument. Although it's not necessarily fair to ding Magic for the reaction he got via an ignorant populace to a newer disease. His prime was cut short.

And far different than the terms of being the better peak player. Ditto for Kobe versus peak Bird.

That's the distinction many fail to make when backing KB.

Ebbs
07-19-2011, 12:01 AM
I would rather see them trade Pau for future picks and have Kobe carry a team to the finals by himself.

tredigs
07-19-2011, 12:05 AM
I would rather see them trade Pau for future picks and have Kobe carry a team to the finals by himself.

Hahah... tongue-in-cheek? ... They went through that - during his peak no less. If he/they made the playoffs, it was a first round exit.

Jewelz0376
07-19-2011, 12:16 AM
Ahhh you can always count on a Lebron vs Kobe argument in pretty much every Kobe thread...It almost seems sometimes that Lebron fans have a rivalry with Kobe fans and vice versa lol...

knightstemplar
07-19-2011, 12:27 AM
Thank you for the compliment.

Look, we are all here giving our opinions. To be a consensus top 10 player of all time, you have to be an unreal player. Kobe has been unreal over his career, and its been a joy to watch him. He is a great, great player, who should be talked about as one of the best.

Now, when we move into the top 2-10 of all time, we can do nothing but be subjective. It should be assumed that anyone talked about in this breath is an unreal player with gifts and accomplishments that anyone should admire.

Bird did have his faults. As does Kobe. I have made it very clear, that I have an emotional and irrational attachment to Bird, and I basically put him over anything that I value as equal because of. Bird won 2 rings in his absolute peak. Against stacked competition. I have no problem with someone with basketball intellect making a case for Kobe over Bird. I may not agree with it, but I will respect it. However, in order for me to entertain that argument, there needs to be substance. Not some dude telling me that Kobe is better because....

As for the LeBron thing, I will openly admit that if LeBron gets hurt next year, and never returns to form, he will never have a chance at catching/passing Kobe. But can anyone actually say with honesty that the Heat won't get the equation right and win a ring or two at least? His pure statistical dominance and dominance amongst peers, along with the award tally he will most likely have when his career is done, may be assumed, but also likely. He passes Kobe.

Kobe has 5 rings, not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, but 5
1 ring for lebron isnt gonna pass kobe, not 2, not 3 either

Lebron has a prime Wade and Bosh on his team, and is in his prime, he needs 5 rings to get to Kobe

How can Lebron be better if he has the team but cant get 5 rings? oh his statistical dominance in the reg season doesnt cut it
he already lost a playoff series with HCA for 3 straight years

Kobes 1 of 4 players to have 5 championships and multiple finals mvps (jordan, magic, kareem, kobe)
and in a year or two will reach 30,000 points, which only 4 players have
and is tied with the most all defensive 1st teams (deserved atleast 7 of them)

with the team lebron has, he has no excuses to not win multiple rings, he will need alot of them to get to kobes accomplishments

Jewelz0376
07-19-2011, 12:33 AM
Kobe has 5 rings, not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, but 5
1 ring for lebron isnt gonna pass kobe, not 2, not 3 either

Lebron has a prime Wade and Bosh on his team, and is in his prime, he needs 5 rings to get to Kobe

How can Lebron be better if he has the team but cant get 5 rings? oh his statistical dominance in the reg season doesnt cut it
he already lost a playoff series with HCA for 3 straight years

Its the classic Kobe double standard...

People like to downplay Kobe's first 3 titles, because he had Shaq...like he was a role player....even though he was a top 5 player in the league by the time they won their 2nd title...

Yet Lebron could win 1 or 2 titles with Wade and Bosh....and you think those same people will downplay Lebrons titles?? Nope...

Its crzy

knightstemplar
07-19-2011, 12:36 AM
Its the classic Kobe double standard...

People like to downplay Kobe's first 3 titles, because he had Shaq...like he was a role player....even though he was a top 5 player in the league by the time they won their 2nd title...

Yet Lebron could win 1 or 2 titles with Wade and Bosh....and you think those same people will downplay Lebrons titles?? Nope...

Its crzy

in 01 and 02, kobe was arguably the 2nd best player in the league
and in the 2001 and 2002 playoffs he led the team in PPG in the first 3 rounds, and was the closer, even in 2000 he was the closer

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by legalize


Sorry to burst your bubble there but a majority of reasonably prudent basketball fans will already agree Kobe has past Bird and is well on his way to passing Magic as the greatest Laker ever.

Congrats to those prudent basketball fans. I am honestly not even sure what that means.


Regarding Bird, Kobe already has surpassed Bird in championships, achievements, accolades.

Yep, Kobe's team success has surpassed Bird's. Bird's peak was better. Bird also led teams to championships in his absolute peak, something Kobe lovers value so highly.


He is known as the better offensive player as well as the better defensive player. Kobe's resume, as it stands today is already better than Bird.

Bird is the better shooter, passer, rebounder, and has plenty of ammo to take over better offensive player. As for defense, Bird was always underrated, and while Kobe has the advantage there, is always overrated.


Regarding Magic, they are neck and neck right now. Within the next few years, regardless of if he wins another title or now, he will most likely surpass Magic's all time achievements due to his longevity.

This is where I find Laker fans argument hallow. You are willing to say Kobe hasn't passed Magic, but that he has passed Bird.


Another title soldifies Kobe over Magic, but even without one, Kobe will go down as the better all time Laker due to the fact that while their accomplishment are too close to call, Kobe would have done more as a basketball player as a Laker than Magic.

Titles don't solidify anything besides the fact that said player was on a TEAM that won the championship.

Again, you are putting Kobe above Bird while saying Magic is still above Kobe. Magic and Bird are interchangeable.


However, as far as putting him above MJ or Kareem, itll probably never happen.

Let me add Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, and Hakeem

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 01:03 AM
Lets all remember also, LBJ will have to win a title without Wade before we can give him all the credit.

Lets all remember, Kobe needs to win a title without Shaq or Gasol to give him credit.

Any player can win a ring with the right cast/scenario

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by knightstemplar



Kobe has 5 rings, not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, but 5
1 ring for lebron isnt gonna pass kobe, not 2, not 3 either

No, it will pass Kobe. That 1/10 part of the equation of how to rate an individual basketball player is now all good.


Lebron has a prime Wade and Bosh on his team, and is in his prime, he needs 5 rings to get to Kobe

measuring players by rings alone has shown to be a fail. You are doing this now.


How can Lebron be better if he has the team but cant get 5 rings?

Because he is more dominant statistically, and simply a better player?


oh his statistical dominance in the reg season doesnt cut it
he already lost a playoff series with HCA for 3 straight years

His playoff numbers also take a crap on Kobe's. Unfortunately, LeBron has never played with the roster strength Kobe has in his playoff years. LJ finally got help this year, and made if way farther than Kobe, but had a horrible finals. But to expect LJ to be denied of a ring is ignorance.


Kobes 1 of 4 players to have 5 championships and multiple finals mvps (jordan, magic, kareem, kobe)

Good for the Lakers and Kobe



and in a year or two will reach 30,000 points, which only 4 players have
and is tied with the most all defensive 1st teams (deserved atleast 7 of them)


Defensive teams make me laugh honestly. But you just touched on WHY Kobe will be an all time great. Longevity. Its not peak, or stats, or dominance for a period of time. Its the fact that he was a top 5 player for 14 years. That is hard to do. Fact is, there are better however.



with the team lebron has, he has no excuses to not win multiple rings, he will need alot of them to get to kobes accomplishments

I also agree that LeBron needs to win rings to be in the conversation. But multiple? Nah. 1-2, and James has passed Kobe. 4-5, and in 8 years, we will be debating LeBron/Wilt/Jabbar.

BkOriginalOne
07-19-2011, 01:16 AM
He moves into top 5 or 6 maybe. From 8, that is.

knightstemplar
07-19-2011, 01:22 AM
No, it will pass Kobe. That 1/10 part of the equation of how to rate an individual basketball player is now all good.



measuring players by rings alone has shown to be a fail. You are doing this now.



Because he is more dominant statistically, and simply a better player?



His playoff numbers also take a crap on Kobe's. Unfortunately, LeBron has never played with the roster strength Kobe has in his playoff years. LJ finally got help this year, and made if way farther than Kobe, but had a horrible finals. But to expect LJ to be denied of a ring is ignorance.



Good for the Lakers and Kobe





Defensive teams make me laugh honestly. But you just touched on WHY Kobe will be an all time great. Longevity. Its not peak, or stats, or dominance for a period of time. Its the fact that he was a top 5 player for 14 years. That is hard to do. Fact is, there are better however.




I also agree that LeBron needs to win rings to be in the conversation. But multiple? Nah. 1-2, and James has passed Kobe. 4-5, and in 8 years, we will be debating LeBron/Wilt/Jabbar.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

jimm120
07-19-2011, 01:28 AM
3 of his rings he was 2nd best player there was no "1b"

ditto.

No matter what Lakers fans want to say about Kobe and how he is much better than Shaq (I see no reason for why they're hating on shaq so much), Shaq was the undesputed #1.

You could say Kobe was 1B during their 3rd finals and 4th finals (which they lost this one), but really, it was Shaq in control during those seasons that he was there.


3 as #2

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by legalize


"Reasonably prudent" is a term describing someone who is completely objective with no bias or prejudice.

That describes me.


Basically was trying to say that if there was such a person, who judged players based on what they accomplished, their talents, skills, successes, failures and basically taking into consideration the totality of one's career, they would state Kobe was better than Bird.

You post this as if its found in the Webster's dictionary. I beg to differ man.


And how has Kobe's "team success surpassed Bird" when Bird always had the better team. Makes no sense. Bird was a better rebounder? Obviously, he was much taller and played forward. Kobe was the much better scorer, had better foot work, had a better post game, had better handles, and was more fundamental offensively than Bird. As far as defense goes, you cant even compare the two.

Look at rates amongst position when arguing skillset.

Bird had a better team? One may argue this, but Bird also faced stronger competition on a yearly basis, and when you judge roster strength, it must be judged on what the respective teams/players competition level was. Kobe has had the most roster support of any player in the the last 15 years.

Defense? During the first half of Bird's career he was actually a very good defender. Kobe is riding all defensive teams because the voters are too lazy to put thought into it. I assume you think Jeter's gold glove was valid last year as well.


Hakeem's accomplishment and his resume simply doesnt measure up to Kobe's. And lastly, Magic is a better player than Bird, hence the statement that Kobe has already surpassed Bird but is right there on the cusp with Magic.

No, Hakeem's career, and individual play, are better than Kobe's.

Prove to me that Magic was better than Bird.


ANd the whole "team" argument. Ill point out again, you do realize that every single stat a player has is based on his team right? PPG, APG, RPG, MVPs, all of these things, including championships are all "team" accomplishments because a certain player doesnt play 1-5 but its always 5-5

No, not every single stat, nor many of them, are based on their team. Per games numbers are indeed archaic, and mean nothing in an argument. But when we have measures to tag efficiency, and rates at certain skills that are able to be measured amongst their positions and peers, its not just numbers to ignore. If fact, modern scouting/technology has allowed us to indeed pick apart players like Iverson for example.



The fact that you would take credit away from a player for winning a title because its a "team" accomplishment but give credit to another player for winning league MVP is completely hypocritical and nonsensical

How so? Because one player was part of a top 5 team, and was credited by the media as the best player in the NBA (even thought they make mistakes), versus another top player being part of the best roster that season is a bad thing?

Kobe and Duncan have had more roster support than any star player since 1995. And low and behold, they have 9 rings between them....


Bottom line is, and you dont have to like it, Kobe, as his career stands today, has achieved far greater success than Bird ever did. And for that reason, he will forever be considered the better player. Thats not even taking into consideration the next few years he has left of his career.

I don't like Kobe. But the fact is, I am also a rational fan who understands how to measure individual athletes in a team sport.

I don't agree he has achieved greater success than Bird. He played longer, and the expected awards, and attributes came. But Bird did a few things that Kobe will never do. And vice versa.

Bird over Kobe for me.

And btw, is that even what this thread is about?

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 01:36 AM
Wow...lol...you must have one of Lebron's check my stats shirts because for you individual numbers seem more important than winning games. What people fail to understand is that individual numbers dont mean anything unless they translate into W's.

We can agree to disagree. You judge a player on the points and rebounds he puts up. I judge a player on how well they play when it matters to most to give his team the win. Winning is more important than scoring.

you judge a player on winning. Therefore, Kobe has no chance in hell of passing Russell, right?

Its not tennis fellas. Its basketball

jimm120
07-19-2011, 01:46 AM
Lets all remember also, LBJ will have to win a title without Wade before we can give him all the credit. Lets not forget how this works. I know it wasnt a standard only for Kobe. Because Kobe won titles with Shaq he was nothing until he won one without him. Now that Kobe showed he can win more without Shaq than Shaq can win without Kobe all of a sudden this is no longer the standard? Uh uh...Lebron's gonna have to win a title without Wade on his team for it to be legit right? I mean that is the precedent we have set.

whoa whoa whoa!

You're getting ahead of yourself there.

Shaq didn't win more because he wasn't given the opportunity. Kobe showed QUITE well that he couldn't win another championship after Shaq was traded. It took getting another #1 player in Pau Gasol for a bag of chips (which we now know was actually a bag of chips with a $50 dollar prize inside of it...but still, at the time, the players traded for Pau did NOT have any value at all) for Kobe to even begin to dream of getting another championship. Then it took older vets like Artest and a growing Bynum (good draft pick) to help him get another championship along with Pau.

Also, Shaq was older. You can say that Shaq's career lasted till 2007. Up to that time is when he was "useful" as a #1 or #2. So, you gotta go back in time. During Kobe's early years, he had Shaq to be #1. During Shaq's early years, he had Penny hardaway...and we all know what happened to him. During the middle years, Kobe had no one and then prime Pau. Shaq had an early Wade and still won it. After that, Shaq had to deal with D'Antoni's horrible offense and his decline.

Kobe is now getting to that decline, but still is effective because he has a stacked team in odom, pau, artest, and bynum...even if Kobe is declining.


So don't go saying that Kobe showed that he can win more without shaq than shaq without kobe. Having better teams from the START of your career can do wonders for a career.


Just imagine if LeBron had had a great player to be by his side in his early years? He would have won at least 1 championship or 2. Then he pulls this same stunt. you know he'll get at least 2 with this team. Then at least 1 more in his later years. That's already 5 championships. Yet, he missed out on those early years because he didn't get the teammate.

whatever.

basketfan4life
07-19-2011, 02:15 AM
If Bron wins 2+ rings, his stats will indeed put him above Kobe, regardless of the majority opinion on this site at this exact moment.

why? because you say/think so?

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 02:19 AM
why? because you say/think so?

I made an assuming statement obviously, but yes, when the dust settles years from now, if Bron wins a ring, and sustains his play for a few years, he passes Kobe when we all look back.

PrettyBoyJ
07-19-2011, 02:58 AM
whoa whoa whoa!

You're getting ahead of yourself there.

Shaq didn't win more because he wasn't given the opportunity. Kobe showed QUITE well that he couldn't win another championship after Shaq was traded. It took getting another #1 player in Pau Gasol for a bag of chips (which we now know was actually a bag of chips with a $50 dollar prize inside of it...but still, at the time, the players traded for Pau did NOT have any value at all) for Kobe to even begin to dream of getting another championship. Then it took older vets like Artest and a growing Bynum (good draft pick) to help him get another championship along with Pau.

Also, Shaq was older. You can say that Shaq's career lasted till 2007. Up to that time is when he was "useful" as a #1 or #2. So, you gotta go back in time. During Kobe's early years, he had Shaq to be #1. During Shaq's early years, he had Penny hardaway...and we all know what happened to him. During the middle years, Kobe had no one and then prime Pau. Shaq had an early Wade and still won it. After that, Shaq had to deal with D'Antoni's horrible offense and his decline.

Kobe is now getting to that decline, but still is effective because he has a stacked team in odom, pau, artest, and bynum...even if Kobe is declining.


So don't go saying that Kobe showed that he can win more without shaq than shaq without kobe. Having better teams from the START of your career can do wonders for a career.


Just imagine if LeBron had had a great player to be by his side in his early years? He would have won at least 1 championship or 2. Then he pulls this same stunt. you know he'll get at least 2 with this team. Then at least 1 more in his later years. That's already 5 championships. Yet, he missed out on those early years because he didn't get the teammate.

whatever.

This debate about Kobe needed Shaq & who won more rings with out each other is getting old..

After Shaq got traded Kobe played on horrible teams in a tough western conference.. And its been established that you cant win a championship by yourself Hence that every previous championship ever won has had more then one Star/2nd option to carry the load.. Pau Gasol was NEVER a #1 player he may have put a disguise as one in Memphis but truthfully he never was a top 15 player or considered to be one until he was traded to LA..

You say it took older vets like Artest and a growing Bynum to win.. Was kobe suppose to play 1 on 5.. of course you need other players to win.. Lakers drafted Bynum and he developed into a good player isnt that the way its suppose to be.. Didnt the Lakers trade for Kobe and ended up being one of the greatest to play the game.. Didnt the Bulls draft Scottie Pippen and went on to win 6 rings with Jordan..

Kobe worked hard and put in a lot of time in the gym to get to where he is today.. That was always the difference between him a Shaq.. if Shaq had Kobe's worth ethic he would have won more rings

Ebbs
07-19-2011, 03:14 AM
Hahah... tongue-in-cheek? ... They went through that - during his peak no less. If he/they made the playoffs, it was a first round exit.

:nod:

C-Style
07-19-2011, 03:20 AM
I made an assuming statement obviously, but yes, when the dust settles years from now, if Bron wins a ring, and sustains his play for a few years, he passes Kobe when we all look back.

No Your just gonna be on the minority with that thinking. Even if Kobe retired now It's not happening. Trust me, you need a handful of rings to go along with with those stats, Also playing along side with Wade will hurt his case.

basketfan4life
07-19-2011, 03:37 AM
i don't get it, lebron has all these stats so him being invisible in 4th quarters of the nba finals, him getting scared while d-wade and dirk goes all crazy means nothing? you can not, can not evaluate a player based on ws,per ect...lebron is nowhere near Kobe, thats it.

Drunken Machine
07-19-2011, 07:14 AM
Also playing along side with Wade will hurt his case.

the same way it hurt kobe's case playing along side shaq? You can't fault Lebron for wanting to win (maybe for the Decision).

nickdymez
07-19-2011, 10:27 AM
I made an assuming statement obviously, but yes, when the dust settles years from now, if Bron wins a ring, and sustains his play for a few years, he passes Kobe when we all look back.

When you look back. Not "we"...

ChiSox219
07-19-2011, 12:59 PM
i don't get it, lebron has all these stats so him being invisible in 4th quarters of the nba finals, him getting scared while d-wade and dirk goes all crazy means nothing? you can not, can not evaluate a player based on ws,per ect...lebron is nowhere near Kobe, thats it.

Kobe went 6-24 in the biggest game of his career.

juno10
07-19-2011, 01:14 PM
Its the classic Kobe double standard...

People like to downplay Kobe's first 3 titles, because he had Shaq...like he was a role player....even though he was a top 5 player in the league by the time they won their 2nd title...

Yet Lebron could win 1 or 2 titles with Wade and Bosh....and you think those same people will downplay Lebrons titles?? Nope...

Its crzy

i think its because lebron is better than both wade and bosh no question and the only people who question it is people who have a hard time admitting even though its obvious that lebron is the best player in the league.

Ovratd1up
07-19-2011, 03:05 PM
yup...BUT what did he do in crunch time, in the 4th quarter when his team needed him the most? Ya, he scored 10 points in the final 8 minutes and gave his team the victory. This is what seperates him from guys like LBJ and others who havent done it yet. He had a horrible game but found a way to score down the stretch, in a tightly contested low low scoring game, and came out a champ. Not to mention he had 15 boards that game which you conveniently forgot to mention.

Again, ill repeat for the 100th time, numbers dont mean jack if they dont translate into W's. Some guys know how to put up big numbers but dont know how to win when it matters. Others will struggle for an entire game but when it counts the most and its crunch time, will deliver over and over and over again.

What's the conversion that is used for points in the 4th compared to in the first 3 quarters. Is it like they multiply 4th quarter points by 3.6 or something to come up with the real value? I'm not understanding this

LakersA's49ers
07-19-2011, 03:45 PM
lets face it. 2 more rings makes kobe and jordan the best guards of all time. 7 for kobe and 6 for jordan. equally impressive

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 03:57 PM
lets face it. 2 more rings makes kobe and jordan the best guards of all time. 7 for kobe and 6 for jordan. equally impressive

Rings are team accomplishments.

And Kobe is already the #2 SG in history. However, there is no chance in hell that he will become #1. None.

Chronz
07-19-2011, 04:27 PM
What's the conversion that is used for points in the 4th compared to in the first 3 quarters. Is it like they multiply 4th quarter points by 3.6 or something to come up with the real value? I'm not understanding this

what legalize is saying is that it doesnt matter that Kobe put his team in a hole by missing so many shots, his teammates were good enough to keep the game low scoring allowing Kobe to finally start converting and thus being the hero of the game. Who cares that he missed every shot he took, he was getting rebounds because he was the one forcing all those misses

juno10
07-19-2011, 04:30 PM
lets face it. 2 more rings makes kobe and jordan the best guards of all time. 7 for kobe and 6 for jordan. equally impressive

how is it equally impressive, jordan three peated took time off than came back and three peated again all as the man of his team.

nickdymez
07-19-2011, 04:42 PM
Ive learned that losers empathize with Lebron and winners relate to kobe. In other words, Losers love Lebron and winners love kobe....

Chronz
07-19-2011, 04:46 PM
Ive learned that losers empathize with Lebron and winners relate to kobe. In other words, Losers love Lebron and winners love kobe....
In other words? Those look like the same words to me but good attempt at sounding clever.

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 04:48 PM
Ive learned that losers empathize with Lebron and winners relate to kobe. In other words, Losers love Lebron and winners love kobe....

hahahaha. So we are to believe that people who succeed in life are all Kobe fans, and those who fail are Bron fans?

Its just sports man. Living vicariously thru an athletes success or failures is sad no matter how you cut it.

Ovratd1up
07-19-2011, 05:00 PM
what legalize is saying is that it doesnt matter that Kobe put his team in a hole by missing so many shots, his teammates were good enough to keep the game low scoring allowing Kobe to finally start converting and thus being the hero of the game. Who cares that he missed every shot he took, he was getting rebounds because he was the one forcing all those misses


hahahaha. So we are to believe that people who succeed in life are all Kobe fans, and those who fail are Bron fans?

Its just sports man. Living vicariously thru an athletes success or failures is sad no matter how you cut it.

:laugh2:, x2

Tony_Starks
07-19-2011, 05:04 PM
Got a flashback to when ppl were so sure that he wasn't gonna win anymore tittles post Shaq!:laugh2: No way Gasol has a case over Kobe, He was clearly the MVP the 1st six games and game 7 he came through with 10pts on the 4th.

Also Kobe WAS the 1B he was putting it on the Spurs, BLazers and Kings, The Lakers REAL Competition during their 3peat.



People seem to conveniently forget about that. Shaq was killing the finals but by the time they got there it was a joke. Beating Portland, Sac, and the Spurs was the championship, and Kobe was in beast mode then!

But to answer the question most Laker fans already have him up there, most haters don't even consider it, and most nuetral objective people have him in the conversation. So I say 2 more chips clearly puts him in a indisputable great catergory where even if you dislike him personally you still have to acknowledge he's one of the greatest ever, top 2 really.....

juno10
07-19-2011, 05:14 PM
hahahaha. So we are to believe that people who succeed in life are all Kobe fans, and those who fail are Bron fans?

Its just sports man. Living vicariously thru an athletes success or failures is sad no matter how you cut it.

thats what kobe stans do,praise kobe till the death and hate on every player close to his level or has a legit potential to be than celebrate when said athlete fails. thats why you wont find one kobe stan who even remotely likes lebron james.

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 05:37 PM
thats what kobe stans do,praise kobe till the death and hate on every player close to his level or has a legit potential to be than celebrate when said athlete fails. thats why you wont find one kobe stan who even remotely likes lebron james.

would you like the player that has passed up your mancrush?

Of course they don't like him. Why would they? But they could at least respect him. That is the part that irks me. Even Bron fans respect Kobe. It doesn't work the other way around

gaughan333
07-19-2011, 05:45 PM
Jesus, Laker/kobe fans are ridiculous. He is not gonna win two more finals MVPS. I don't see him going to the finals 2 more times as a starter.

naps
07-19-2011, 06:54 PM
lets face it. 2 more rings makes kobe and jordan the best guards of all time. 7 for kobe and 6 for jordan. equally impressive

Not equally impressive. Kobe's resume is nowhere near Jordan's.

naps
07-19-2011, 06:59 PM
Jesus, Laker/kobe fans are ridiculous. He is not gonna win two more finals MVPS. I don't see him going to the finals 2 more times as a starter.

This is actually true. Why would this thread be here in the first place anyway when the chances of this happening are very very slim? It's like making a thread "Is LeBron going to be the GOAT if he wins 6 titles and 6 F. MVPS"?

Tree Rollins
07-19-2011, 07:24 PM
Not equally impressive. Kobe's resume is nowhere near Jordan's.

Jordan is the GOAT, no doubt about it. But I wonder what would happen if you gave Kobe the best defender in the league (scottie pippen) the best rebounder in the league (Dennis Rodman) the 2nd best all-around player in the league (scottie pippen) a top 5 all-time defensive player (scottie pippen) the best defending power forward in the league (dennis rodman) a top 10 all time defensive player (Dennis Rodman) One of the greatest coaches in the history of team sports (Phil jackson) One of the greatest rebounders of all time (rodman) The best european player in the league (toni kukoc)....i mean, that's not much help, but i wonder how he'd do?

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 07:28 PM
Jordan is the GOAT, no doubt about it. But I wonder what would happen if you gave Kobe the best defender in the league (scottie pippen) the best rebounder in the league (Dennis Rodman) the 2nd best all-around player in the league (scottie pippen) a top 5 all-time defensive player (scottie pippen) the best defending power forward in the league (dennis rodman) a top 10 all time defensive player (Dennis Rodman) One of the greatest coaches in the history of team sports (Phil jackson) One of the greatest rebounders of all time (rodman) The best european player in the league (toni kukoc)....i mean, that's not much help, but i wonder how he'd do?

and I wonder what would have happened if MJ walked into a stacked team and a storied franchise? 12 rings?

Speculation world is fun

nickdymez
07-19-2011, 07:41 PM
So in conclusion, Kobe is overrated? Good.. Lets close this thread...

knightstemplar
07-19-2011, 07:43 PM
and I wonder what would have happened if MJ walked into a stacked team and a storied franchise? 12 rings?

Speculation world is fun

from 1991-98 they were stacked as hell, defensively especially

1993-94 without MJ, bulls won 55 games and were a bad call away form the ECF
without a prime jordan, thats stacked

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 07:49 PM
from 1991-98 they were stacked as hell, defensively especially

1993-94 without MJ, bulls won 55 games and were a bad call away form the ECF
without a prime jordan, thats stacked

no, no, you are missing my point. Kobe, from day 1, was on a contender with arguably the best player in the planet. Jordan's first 5 seasons he had nothing around him. If MJ had walked into a contender day 1, he would probably have so many rings, he wouldn't have enough fingers.

But that is speculation since it didn't happen. Which is why I responded to a post that was 100% speculation.

Do you really think Kobe would have 5 rings had he been drafted to a crappy team that he needed to carry, and wait 7 years to come together?

Rhetorical question

knightstemplar
07-19-2011, 07:58 PM
no, no, you are missing my point. Kobe, from day 1, was on a contender with arguably the best player in the planet. Jordan's first 5 seasons he had nothing around him. If MJ had walked into a contender day 1, he would probably have so many rings, he wouldn't have enough fingers.

But that is speculation since it didn't happen. Which is why I responded to a post that was 100% speculation.

Do you really think Kobe would have 5 rings had he been drafted to a crappy team that he needed to carry, and wait 7 years to come together?

Rhetorical question

lol from day 1 he was 17 years old
give kobe a good supporting cast, or jordan, or alltime greats they will win cause there that good

you really think jordan would have 6 rings without that bulls supporting cast of the 90s?

naps
07-19-2011, 07:59 PM
Jordan is the GOAT, no doubt about it. But I wonder what would happen if you gave Kobe the best defender in the league (scottie pippen) the best rebounder in the league (Dennis Rodman) the 2nd best all-around player in the league (scottie pippen) a top 5 all-time defensive player (scottie pippen) the best defending power forward in the league (dennis rodman) a top 10 all time defensive player (Dennis Rodman) One of the greatest coaches in the history of team sports (Phil jackson) One of the greatest rebounders of all time (rodman) The best european player in the league (toni kukoc)....i mean, that's not much help, but i wonder how he'd do?

And how does that make Kobe's resume any better again? It is what it is. What if Kobe never played with Shaq and Gasol...hmm I wonder where he would be in all time rank.

See what I did there?

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 08:00 PM
lol from day 1 he was 17 years old

give kobe a good supporting cast, or jordan, or alltime greats they will win cause there that good

you are again missing the point. Jordan walked into crap. Kobe walked into a ready made championship contender.

Understand? If not, can't help ya

knightstemplar
07-19-2011, 08:05 PM
you are again missing the point. Jordan walked into crap. Kobe walked into a ready made championship contender.

Understand? If not, can't help ya

kobe walked into a good team yes, but was young
they didnt win anything until he developed anyway

i get your point tho

naps
07-19-2011, 08:05 PM
lol from day 1 he was 17 years old
give kobe a good supporting cast, or jordan, or alltime greats they will win cause there that good

you really think jordan would have 6 rings without that bulls supporting cast of the 90s?

You are missing Hawk's point. What could have/would have happen doesn't affect their current resumes. It is what it is. A speculation is a speculation. A rookie Jordan would have ripped the league apart if he had a prime 96/97 Shaq with him. But it didn't happen. Hence we can't rely on that for our discussion between two players because that's pure speculation.

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 08:06 PM
kobe walked into a good team yes, but was young
they didnt win anything until he developed anyway

i get your point tho

and understand I was only replying to a post that was 100% speculation. Nothing more.

Thank you for the response

Tree Rollins
07-19-2011, 08:22 PM
and I wonder what would have happened if MJ walked into a stacked team and a storied franchise? 12 rings?

Speculation world is fun

Yeah. I'm just saying. Everyone acts like Kobe has had so much more help then Jordan. To many people think Jordan did it on his own. it's a myth.

Tree Rollins
07-19-2011, 08:41 PM
And how does that make Kobe's resume any better again? It is what it is. What if Kobe never played with Shaq and Gasol...hmm I wonder where he would be in all time rank.

See what I did there?

Yeah i see what you did but did you? What you did is miss my point. My point is that everyone is always docking Kobes resume b/c he had help. Jordan though had as much if not more help. That doesn't change the fact that Jordan is better, but i'm just saying, if you're going to dock Kobe b/c he played with Shaq or Gasol, then Jordan should be docked for playing with Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc etc.

SteBO
07-19-2011, 08:51 PM
[/B]


That's BS and you know it, lequit fans hate Kobe hell, look at allthe Lebron groupies in here including you, it was suppost to be a Kobe thread and people like you had to bring up someone meaningless to this thread, then you say some of the stupidest things hahaha lebronw/1>Kobew/5 lmfao :facepalm::rolleyes:
Are you serious? I, for one, respect the hell out of Kobe. I'm actually one of the few on here that call out those for knocking Kobe for having a prime Shaq, then fail to realize what Shaq would have if it weren't for playing alongside Kobe, or Wade. He'd have no titles and that's fact. A lot of non Laker fans respect Bryant.

naps
07-19-2011, 08:58 PM
Yeah i see what you did but did you? What you did is miss my point. My point is that everyone is always docking Kobes resume b/c he had help. Jordan though had as much if not more help. That doesn't change the fact that Jordan is better, but i'm just saying, if you're going to dock Kobe b/c he played with Shaq or Gasol, then Jordan should be docked for playing with Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc etc.

The difference is Jordan led his team to 6 championships, that's why he has 6 finals MVPs, 5 league MVPs. He also had 10 scoring titles.

Kobe led his team to 2 championships, has 2 finals MVPs, and 1 league MVPs. Kobe has 2 scoring titles.

So he's nowhere near Jordan.

naps
07-19-2011, 09:00 PM
He would have atleast 3-4 championships if he played for another team, he is just that good

Ofcourse, only if he played with similar talents like prime Shaq and prime Gasol

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 09:23 PM
[/B]


That's BS and you know it, lequit fans hate Kobe hell, look at allthe Lebron groupies in here including you, it was suppost to be a Kobe thread and people like you had to bring up someone meaningless to this thread, then you say some of the stupidest things hahaha lebronw/1>Kobew/5 lmfao :facepalm::rolleyes:

well, you proved my point with the "lequit" thing.

And nope, I can't stand Kobe personally. But I respect his game and career as anyone should for a player with his individual accomplishments.

What did I bring up that was meaningless? That Kobe stands no chance in hell of being the #2 player of all time? That is true. I actually brought more to the argument than a Kobe fan with hardcore blinders brought.

Hawkeye15
07-19-2011, 09:26 PM
Yeah. I'm just saying. Everyone acts like Kobe has had so much more help then Jordan. To many people think Jordan did it on his own. it's a myth.

anyone who wins a ring has a ton of help. Anyone who has won multiple rings had a ton of help for a number of years. No individual can do it by themselves. However, when you come across posters who use rings as the main argument for individual greatness (cough, a huge percentage of Kobe fans), you are now missing the actual way to measure all together

gaughan333
07-19-2011, 09:35 PM
Lol Kobe will be an all-star until he retires, that how great he is. And making it to the finals and winning 2ice isn't that far fetched if you really think about it, just a good bench and a new point guard and you got yourself another lakers championship

It is that far fetched if I really think about it, but ok. Where are the lakers getting this new point guard and money for a bench? I am assuming that the cap will be different after this new CBA.

Kobe only has 2 NBA finals MVPs up to this point, he'd need to double that while declining.

Also, using the idea that someone is an all-star to define how good they are as a player is stupid when they have as many groupies as kobe. Yao Ming made the all-star game...

juno10
07-19-2011, 10:26 PM
I said Lebron groupies not heat fans, I don't think your a Lebron groupie

kobe stans are much worse than lebron groupies

gaughan333
07-19-2011, 10:43 PM
Bs

I will agree that kobe fans are worse than lebron fans.

gaughan333
07-19-2011, 10:45 PM
Again though, how do you see the lakers making these improvements that will allow them to win two more nba championships (kobe is not winning finals MVP in a loss). They will have to get past the Mavs, Thunder and Memphis in the west and the Heat, Celtics, Bulls, or Knicks in the East.

nickdymez
07-20-2011, 02:13 AM
anyone who wins a ring has a ton of help. Anyone who has won multiple rings had a ton of help for a number of years. No individual can do it by themselves. However, when you come across posters who use rings as the main argument for individual greatness (cough, a huge percentage of Kobe fans), you are now missing the actual way to measure all together

This is your main argument when Kobe and Lebron talk comes up. Listen to me, if you dont understand how it takes an individual with the will to win and push his team to win along with him, then i dont think you've ever played team sports in your life. Players with that hunger is what separates Lebron from Kobe.. Players feed off that.. When Laker players see kobe tearing his body apart, breaking fingers, hyper extending knees, and doing whatever it takes to win, they feed off that. They dont want to let him down. When players on the Heat see Lebron being passive and passing the ball to Mike Miller in the NBA finals and sitting back and watching to see what miller does, they dont have a sense of urgency. If Lebron dont care, they dont care.. Thats the difference.. Thats why all you peoples stats mean nothing to Kobe fans.. We see heart, will to win, determination in kobe and that's why people separate the two players. All Lebron fans see are regular season stats or just plain stats in general. Thats awesome, he puts up "killer numbers". I honesly hate on Lebron because I dont see greatness in him, I see someone who relies almost 100% on athleticism. Perfect example, ive been a laker fan since showtime, but i never hated Larry Bird.. I always had Larry as my top three player of all time. He has heart, he wants to win. And he was the least athletic son of a ***** ive seen.....

nickdymez
07-20-2011, 02:17 AM
There have been plenty, and I mean PLENTY of star players who have been on stacked teams and not won titles. PLENTY. No matter how good of a team you have, it takes a lot to win championships. Its no wonder that the top 10 of all time is filled with players who carried their teams to multiple titles. You dont see a player on a top 10 list that has never won a title or won only ONE title. Each one of those guys have carried their teams to MULTIPLE titles.

Winning is the ultimate measure of success. Individual numbers might be impressive but if they do not translate into wins, it has no significance. And while this is not golf or tennis, its also not football or baseball. ONE player has a drastic impact on the outcome of a game. ONE player can change a game, a series and even an entire playoff run. So yes, winning is the ultimate measure of success because otherwise the top 10 wouldnt ONLY consist of guys who have won multiple titles.

And ya, a huge percentage of Kobe fans like to talk about winning becase "winning" was the excuse everybody used when Kobe couldnt get it done without Shaq. Winning was the excuse everyone used to downplay his legacy. BUt now, all of a sudden that KObe has won a couple of more, its no longer about winning, but now its about PER and WS and TS% and other non-sensical, made up stats that nobody takes seriously? Get out of here with that. Kobe fans are adamant because people keep changing the criteria and keep making up new excuses and new stats and new reasons to discredit the man when he has been clearly at least the 3rd greatest perimeter player to ever play the game of basketball when you take into consideration every single thing he has accomplished (behind MJ and right there with Magic).

The bottom line is, no matter what excuse you come up with and no matter what new stat you can make up, his resume speaks for itself. And while you might not value winning so much, when it comes to judging greatness in this game, anyone who has ever played will tell you, nothing is more important.

I didnt hear about any of those ******** *** advanced stats until i joined psd. I feel the same way as you. One of my first arguments i had about Kobe, someone bought up "ws" and "per".. I was like "what the hell is that??" And they responded with a very arrogant, "Awww, i cant talk to you because you dont even know about advanced stats.... " I was like "Shut up".. People on this site try so hard to make that the bar for judging players.

WadeKobe
07-20-2011, 02:22 AM
lol ur ********, why does lebron need 3 and wade need 4 to best kobe? kobe has 5 last time i counted. id say lebron and wade need atleast 5. lebron and wade play on the same team which should make it that much easier to win a title.. kobe got 3 in a row like that with shaq even though kobe was a kid not in his prime and not two superstars in their prime plus an all star like with the heat. then he won 2 more titles with an all star in pau and a bunch of good supporting players and a 6th man of the year type.

wade and lebron need atleast 3 together and 2 on their own to equal kobe.

I'm assuming they play together in Miami and win in Miami. If they win 3, LeBron will have 3, Wade 4. That's just math.

Championships don't mean that much for an individual in a team game. LeBron and Wade are both so much better statistically that all they need is about 3 chps each in order to prove their worth as winners. Their stats will make it clear that they're better than Kobe. It won't be close. LeBron may well be #2, with ease by the end.

knightstemplar
07-20-2011, 02:47 AM
I'm assuming they play together in Miami and win in Miami. If they win 3, LeBron will have 3, Wade 4. That's just math.

Championships don't mean that much for an individual in a team game. LeBron and Wade are both so much better statistically that all they need is about 3 chps each in order to prove their worth as winners. Their stats will make it clear that they're better than Kobe. It won't be close. LeBron may well be #2, with ease by the end.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

naps
07-20-2011, 03:11 AM
Yeah and shaq doesn't win without Kobe magic doesn't win without Kareem Jordan without pippen, bird without mcchale Lebron without wade, oh wait...:/


Your points are meaningless, gasol isn't a top 10-13 players and I doubt he ever makes the top 50 players ever, he is a great player but give Kobe a 17&10 guy and he makes them a contender

So what is the point again? Yeah, Kobe is nowhere near Jordan. It's almost a crime to put them in the same sentence. And Lakers are not improving anytime soon unless Stern somehow gets them Dwight Howard ala Gasol. You said they can get a new PG and improve their bench, I agree they will be stronger if they can do it. But show me how will they get it done. Where is the money? All you are doing here is making ridiculous and unrealistic speculations and crowning Kobe 2 more rings as the man and putting him alongside Jordan, AND when people are not agreeing with your BS, you start attacking them personally. Like seriously you need to be more mature, substantial, objective, and rational if you really wanna debate here.

WadeKobe
07-20-2011, 03:22 AM
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Keep laughing. I really don't care. The stats speak for themselves, and will only speak more loudly as analysis and understanding of the game changes. There will be little doubt when Wade and James hang the shoes up.

gaughan333
07-20-2011, 03:37 AM
So what is the point again? Yeah, Kobe is nowhere near Jordan. It's almost a crime to put them in the same sentence. And Lakers are not improving anytime soon unless Stern somehow gets them Dwight Howard ala Gasol. You said they can get a new PG and improve their bench, I agree they will be stronger if they can do it. But show me how will they get it done. Where is the money? All you are doing here is making ridiculous and unrealistic speculations and crowning Kobe 2 more rings as the man and putting him alongside Jordan, AND when people are not agreeing with your BS, you start attacking them personally. Like seriously you need to be more mature, substantial, objective, and rational if you really wanna debate here.

I keep pointing this out to him as well. I wanna know where these things are coming from.

naps
07-20-2011, 03:45 AM
I keep pointing this out to him as well. I wanna know where these things are coming from.

I bet he has no idea about it. Just like most of his opinions.

gaughan333
07-20-2011, 03:49 AM
I liked kobe until I joined PSD and saw how blindly lakers/kobe fans defend him.

Kevj77
07-20-2011, 06:34 AM
I liked kobe until I joined PSD and saw how blindly lakers/kobe fans defend him.This is what makes me mad about the NBA forum. I used to like Lebron until I started reading the NBA forum. Then I saw how blindly Lebron fans defend him and discredit my favorite player Kobe anyway they can.

Kinda why I don't read as many threads here anymore.

juno10
07-20-2011, 11:55 AM
This is your main argument when Kobe and Lebron talk comes up. Listen to me, if you dont understand how it takes an individual with the will to win and push his team to win along with him, then i dont think you've ever played team sports in your life. Players with that hunger is what separates Lebron from Kobe.. Players feed off that.. When Laker players see kobe tearing his body apart, breaking fingers, hyper extending knees, and doing whatever it takes to win, they feed off that. They dont want to let him down. When players on the Heat see Lebron being passive and passing the ball to Mike Miller in the NBA finals and sitting back and watching to see what miller does, they dont have a sense of urgency. If Lebron dont care, they dont care.. Thats the difference.. Thats why all you peoples stats mean nothing to Kobe fans.. We see heart, will to win, determination in kobe and that's why people separate the two players. All Lebron fans see are regular season stats or just plain stats in general. Thats awesome, he puts up "killer numbers". I honesly hate on Lebron because I dont see greatness in him, I see someone who relies almost 100% on athleticism. Perfect example, ive been a laker fan since showtime, but i never hated Larry Bird.. I always had Larry as my top three player of all time. He has heart, he wants to win. And he was the least athletic son of a ***** ive seen.....

you hate lebron because you dont see greatness in him lmao you must hate 90% of the league than. okay not hating i like kobe because he doesn't give a **** what people think about him but i honestly don't think he should be a top ten player of all time neither should lebron. as of right now . look at all the greats if kobe gets into the top ten than it seems like hes only in because he has a similar playing style as MJ i guess people love these flashy players.

nickdymez
07-20-2011, 12:08 PM
you hate lebron because you dont see greatness in him lmao you must hate 90% of the league than. okay not hating i like kobe because he doesn't give a **** what people think about him but i honestly don't think he should be a top ten player of all time neither should lebron. as of right now . look at all the greats if kobe gets into the top ten than it seems like hes only in because he has a similar playing style as MJ i guess people love these flashy players.

Are you serious? Kobe should be in the top ten because he plays like Jordan? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

nickdymez
07-20-2011, 12:12 PM
I'm assuming they play together in Miami and win in Miami. If they win 3, LeBron will have 3, Wade 4. That's just math.

Championships don't mean that much for an individual in a team game. LeBron and Wade are both so much better statistically that all they need is about 3 chps each in order to prove their worth as winners. Their stats will make it clear that they're better than Kobe. It won't be close. LeBron may well be #2, with ease by the end.

Unfortunately it means everything. Ive said it 1000 times, your not playing any sport to have the best regular season record or greatest stats. Your playing to win a championship. In the case with Miami, they had everything in place to do so and failed.. Whos fault is that? Please dont give me the whole "Dallas deserved it more." Im not buying that. Ive heard to much "Lebron is the best player in the world and Wade is top 3" for me to buy that argument.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-20-2011, 12:34 PM
I said Lebron groupies not heat fans, I don't think your a Lebron groupie

LOL, you weren't hear during the playoffs to see the huge LeBron hate fest. Only groupie there is with LeBron fans are some Heat fans. And I'm also starting to think you're a dupe of RaidersLakers24. You joined like right after he got banned.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-20-2011, 12:40 PM
He would have atleast 3-4 championships if he played for another team, he is just that good

So if he was playing for the T-Wolves post KG era he would've won every year? If he ended up playing for the Hornets he would've won 3 or 4 chips? Are you insane?

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-20-2011, 12:44 PM
Lol Kobe will be an all-star until he retires, that how great he is. And making it to the finals and winning 2ice isn't that far fetched if you really think about it, just a good bench and a new point guard and you got yourself another lakers championship

Actually it is. With only the MLE for the Lakers and seeing that they are way over the salary cap, that's going to be hard to do.

WadeKobe
07-20-2011, 12:47 PM
Unfortunately it means everything. Ive said it 1000 times, your not playing any sport to have the best regular season record or greatest stats. Your playing to win a championship. In the case with Miami, they had everything in place to do so and failed.. Whos fault is that? Please dont give me the whole "Dallas deserved it more." Im not buying that. Ive heard to much "Lebron is the best player in the world and Wade is top 3" for me to buy that argument.

And yet throughout the season, it was the prevailing opinion that we didn't actually have "everything in place to do so". Everyone thought so. Then when they got there, it was they are clearly the favorites.

Whatever you can do to bash the Heat, doesn't matter if it contradicts what you said the day before. That was the MO this season. I'm tired of it.

naps
07-20-2011, 12:53 PM
LOL, you weren't hear during the playoffs to see the huge LeBron hate fest. Only groupie there is with LeBron fans are some Heat fans. And I'm also starting to think you're a dupe of RaidersLakers24. You joined like right after he got banned.

Bingoo! Winner! :clap::clap::clap:

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-20-2011, 01:11 PM
Bingoo! Winner! :clap::clap::clap:

Yeah I noticed the same Kobe arguments that were made in the ranking players threads over the past few weeks with, "just look at his championships and accolades". So I looked at his profile to see his join date, it was like July 10th and RaidersLakers got banned like a few days before.

Hawkeye15
07-20-2011, 01:22 PM
I can't believe it took me that long to check those two users for returning duplicates.

They are gone.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-20-2011, 01:29 PM
I can't believe it took me that long to check those two users for returning duplicates.

They are gone.

Yeah I finally caught a dupe. I should become a mod now lol;).

bradyoverrated
07-20-2011, 01:31 PM
ummm...i think he'll have to surpass Magic, Russell, Barkley, Shaq, Jordan, and a host of others before he surpasses the best ever:

Larry Bird

Geargo Wallace
07-20-2011, 01:52 PM
I like the Kobe face though
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/ec61f8a82f/kobe-bryant-on-the-nba-lockout

nickdymez
07-20-2011, 03:18 PM
And yet throughout the season, it was the prevailing opinion that we didn't actually have "everything in place to do so". Everyone thought so. Then when they got there, it was they are clearly the favorites.

Whatever you can do to bash the Heat, doesn't matter if it contradicts what you said the day before. That was the MO this season. I'm tired of it.

Your not serious right now right? No one picked the Mavs to win except mavs fans. Every analyst in the world picked the Heat to win handily, im sure you did too... Only thing i ever said about the series is that the Mavs COULD win... And i was right...

naps
07-20-2011, 08:01 PM
Kobe led the team in PPG in the first 3 rounds of the 2001 and 2002 playoffs, so 1b is more like it

The return of RaidersLakers24/JustBringIt :confused:

tredigs
07-20-2011, 08:33 PM
Your not serious right now right? No one picked the Mavs to win except mavs fans. Every analyst in the world picked the Heat to win handily, im sure you did too... Only thing i ever said about the series is that the Mavs COULD win... And i was right...

Revisionist history after just a couple months? Wow, I'm impressed.

Facts are that while most picked the Heat, a huge number of impartial fans/analysts had the Mavs as well.

Of these ESPN Analysts, the same is true - and all but one person had them going at least 6 games (Berrios had Mavs in 5). http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/mavericks-heat

I like how this ended up a Heat/Mavs debate somehow.

Lim
07-20-2011, 08:47 PM
there is this game called basketball, its a team game or something.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-20-2011, 09:43 PM
The return of RaidersLakers24/JustBringIt :confused:

I think it is. Also who is RaidersLakers originally a dupe of?

BlitzBlud4
07-21-2011, 02:16 AM
Your right kobes prime doesn't stack up to lebrons prime, because his prime is simply better, I wonder how old you are? I bet you barely started etching basketball 2-3 years ago. Prime Kobe would kill Lebron.

And btw how do you know Kobe wouldn't average those numbers? He averages 30-7-6 one season what makes you think he couldn't do it with a championship team? You just a Lebron groupie

I know it's your opinion but how exactly was Kobe's prime simply better than LeBron's. LeBron's 2 MVP seasons are better than any of Kobe's season. The only thing Kobe has over LeBron, was that he was able to win a ring as the no.1 option (but it took him until his 13th season to do so)

basketfan4life
07-21-2011, 02:32 AM
i don't know, Kobe's 35-5-5 and 32-5-5 seasons were better than any of the lebron's seasons, for me.

BlitzBlud4
07-21-2011, 02:52 AM
i don't know, Kobe's 35-5-5 and 32-5-5 seasons were better than any of the lebron's seasons, for me.

Based on what though? Kobe just scored more than LeBron, and Kobe needed to take many more shots to average a few more pts- with a lower %. Besides those 2 seasons, his team got knocked out the first round. LeBron's best seasons basically has Kobe's beat by some margin, and he as the edge in basically everything except ppg, free-throw %, and his teams won more games. You gotta look more at the indept stats than per game stats IMO.

C-Style
07-21-2011, 03:37 AM
I'm assuming they play together in Miami and win in Miami. If they win 3, LeBron will have 3, Wade 4. That's just math.

LeBron and Wade are both so much better statistically

Their stats will make it clear that they're better than Kobe. It won't be close.

I beg to differ!


KOBE
Age 20- 20/5/4
Age 21- 23/6/5
Age 22- 29/6/5
Age 23- 25/6/6
Age 24- 30/7/6
Age 25- 24/6/5
Age 26- 28/6/6
Age 27- 35/5/5
Age 28- 32/6/5
Age 29- 28/6/5
Age 30- 27/5/5
Age 31- 27/5/5
Age 32- 25/5/5

WADE
Age 22- 16/4/5
Age 23- 24/5/7
Age 24- 27/6/7
Age 25- 27/5/8
Age 26- 25/4/7
Age 27- 30/5/8
Age 28- 27/5/7
Age 29- 26/6/5

whitemamba
07-21-2011, 04:12 AM
For a start he's not gonna win 2 more titles. You can also argue his last title Gasol should've been the finals MVP.

His first three titles he was the clear cut number 2 as well.

Khalifa21 I'm guessing strongly is a Kobe hater at either a conscious or subconscious level. But in all seriousness watch the full games on youtube you can now watch from the playoffs in 2001 and 2002 and see Kobes importance for yourself, and seriously you really gonna put Gasol above Kobe in their recent titles? come on bud.

AIRMAR72
07-21-2011, 06:23 AM
kobe SUCK the man has been all media HYPE since he been in the league and even tho HE was riding the bench for almost 3yrs they(media) were still hyping kobe and he couldnt beat-out eddie jones in practice who they ended up traded so kobe could play.. kobe is NOT a great player POOR FG%.. certify chucker KOBE is also lazy on D (BUT STILL MAKE 1ST TEAM) POOR leader FAKE will to WIN and FAKE mamba salty dream multiple sweeps and 1st rd exits are on kobe resume kobe might be a future TO in the making look kobe had some great moments mainly in the 2010 championship(thanks to pau) but that was the best that ive seen him play in any playoffs in his career but the truth his the man is just about FINISH hes going to avrage 18-20 point once the season starts or less

Lakers211221
07-21-2011, 06:58 AM
3 of his rings he was 2nd best player there was no "1b"

During the playoffs of the 2nd Championship Kobe averaged 1 less point than Shaq and 4 more assists...that looks more like a 1a and 1b to me

During the playoffs of the 3rd Championship Kobe averaged 2 less points than Shaq and 2 more assists....also, 1a and 1b

You can call Kobe the 2nd best player for the first championship, but the 2nd and 3rd, Kobe was on par with Shaq; I don't care about the popularity contest that is known as MVP voting

Lakers211221
07-21-2011, 06:59 AM
kobe SUCK the man has been all media HYPE since he been in the league and even tho HE was riding the bench for almost 3yrs they(media) were still hyping kobe and he couldnt beat-out eddie jones in practice who they ended up traded so kobe could play.. kobe is NOT a great player POOR FG%.. certify chucker KOBE is also lazy on D (BUT STILL MAKE 1ST TEAM) POOR leader FAKE will to WIN and FAKE mamba salty dream multiple sweeps and 1st rd exits are on kobe resume kobe might be a future TO in the making look kobe had some great moments mainly in the 2010 championship(thanks to pau) but that was the best that ive seen him play in any playoffs in his career but the truth his the man is just about FINISH hes going to avrage 18-20 point once the season starts or less

Somebody didn't pay attention in English class.

WadeKobe
07-21-2011, 10:23 AM
I beg to differ!


KOBE
Age 20- 20/5/4
Age 21- 23/6/5
Age 22- 29/6/5
Age 23- 25/6/6
Age 24- 30/7/6
Age 25- 24/6/5
Age 26- 28/6/6
Age 27- 35/5/5
Age 28- 32/6/5
Age 29- 28/6/5
Age 30- 27/5/5
Age 31- 27/5/5
Age 32- 25/5/5

WADE
Age 22- 16/4/5
Age 23- 24/5/7
Age 24- 27/6/7
Age 25- 27/5/8
Age 26- 25/4/7
Age 27- 30/5/8
Age 28- 27/5/7
Age 29- 26/6/5

go take some statistics lessons and come back to me. k? Thanks.