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JordansBulls
07-16-2011, 06:12 PM
Voting for #9 has concluded and PSD's Official #9 Player of all time is....

Hakeem Olajuwon


21.8 PPG | 11.1 RPG | 2.5 AST | .513 FG | 3.1 BPG | 23.59 PER

Achievements:

12 time All-Star
2 NBA Championships
1 Time MVP
2 Time Finals MVP
2 DPOY Awards
6 Time All-NBA First Teamer
5 Time All-NBA Defensive First Teamer
Led in Rebounding 2x
Led in Blocks 3x
Most Blocks Recorded in NBA History for the Season
Most Career Blocks Recorded in Playoff History and Highest Blocks Average


Hakeem Olajuwon = 90 votes
Tim Duncan = 73 votes
Oscar Robertson = 14 votes
John Stockton = 5 votes
Allen Iverson = 4 votes
Julius Erving = 3 votes
Patrick Ewing = 3 votes
Dirk Nowitzki = 2 votes
Karl Malone = 2 votes
Lebron James = 2 votes
Jerry West = 1 vote
Isiah Thomas = 1 vote
Charles Barkley = 1 vote
Elgin Baylor = 1 vote
Bob Cousy = 1 vote
Dwyane Wade = 1 vote
Moses Malone = 1 vote
George Mikan = 1 vote




The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634733)




NOTE:

Need you guys to start nominating so that we can do a top 25 or even top 50.

Requirement for nomination is: Player had to be an allstar at least 3+ times as a minimum or have won League MVP or an allstar 2+ times with finals MVP.
Doing it this way gets rid of posters who would put guys like Cedric Maxwell who although he has a finals mvp never was an allstar.

Cano4prez
07-16-2011, 06:14 PM
Going with Duncan again..

kozelkid
07-16-2011, 06:14 PM
This should be a landslide for Timmy.

tredigs
07-16-2011, 06:15 PM
Good stuff with 'Dream at 9, even if he may be a far more dominant two-way player than Kobe - we'll just have to deal with that little mishap in the rankings. I realize not everyone here was fortunate enough to witness the dominance of Hakeem firsthand, and Kobe got that bling son!

Uphill battle for someone to argue against Duncan here. I'm predicting a landslide.

alencp3
07-16-2011, 06:16 PM
Duncan than Lebron

KeepMonta#8
07-16-2011, 06:20 PM
Duncan!

JordansBulls
07-16-2011, 06:21 PM
Right now we have about 30 options in the poll, I think that is too many, a lot of guys aren't getting votes yet, so I may hold off on the nominations for the next few player comparisons.

kozelkid
07-16-2011, 06:23 PM
Also I nominate Pippen, Worthy, McHale, Chris Paul, Paul Pierce and Parish.

Geargo Wallace
07-16-2011, 06:24 PM
Good stuff with 'Dream at 9, even if he may be a far more dominant two-way player than Kobe - we'll just have to deal with that little mishap in the rankings. I realize not everyone here was fortunate enough to witness the dominance of Hakeem firsthand, and Kobe got that bling son!

Uphill battle for someone to argue against Duncan here. I'm predicting a landslide.

Agree. Notice that there were 74 less votes in the last poll than the poll that Kobe won. Fanboys lost interest.

Duncan for me. Like I said before, ppl forget how agile and quick Duncan used to be. He was pretty damn athletic and imposing in his younger/prime years. Lest we forget how dominant he was.

kozelkid
07-16-2011, 06:24 PM
Right now we have about 30 options in the poll, I think that is too many, a lot of guys aren't getting votes yet, so I may hold off on the nominations for the next few player comparisons.

Understandable although I expect things to get VERY interesting for the next round.

tredigs
07-16-2011, 06:25 PM
Getting ready to make a case for the Round Mount of Rebound following Duncan here.

kozelkid
07-16-2011, 06:26 PM
Getting ready to make a case for the Round Mount of Rebound following Duncan here.

I might have to do the same for the The Kid next.

tredigs
07-16-2011, 06:30 PM
Getting ready to make a case for the Round Mount of Rebound following Duncan here.

Mount?


Pretty curious where PSD's going to place Oscar, and what people are going to think of the adjusted-for-pace version of his triple double (still an insane stat-line).

He could go from over to under to over rated in the blink of an eye. I wish we had an older generation of posters who saw him live capable of weighing in on Oscar versus Jerry West, etc.

kozelkid
07-16-2011, 06:32 PM
Pretty curious where PSD's going to place Oscar, and what people are going to think of the adjusted-for-pace version of his triple double (still an insane stat-line).

He could go from over to under to over rated in the blink of an eye. I wish we had an older generation of posters who saw him live capable of weighing in on Oscar versus Jerry West, etc.

Same here.
Never really got to watch Oscar either, but from what I've read and seen (I've seen little), can't say I'm that much of a fan.

Regardless, after Duncan wins this landslide, I expect the next group of debate to be between Barkley, Dirk, Pettit, Erving, Ewing, Robinson KG, Oscar, West, Stockton and both Malones. Looking forward to it.

legalize
07-16-2011, 06:41 PM
Hakeem never dominated the game like Duncan or some of the others listed ahead of him, but its a shame how some people like to glorify players who are long gone over others who have achieved a tremendous amount of more success.

Duncan should win this for sure. He deserved the 9 spot.

tredigs
07-16-2011, 06:43 PM
Same here.
Never really got to watch Oscar either, but from what I've read and seen (I've seen little), can't say I'm that much of a fan.

Regardless, after Duncan wins this landslide, I expect the next group of debate to be between Barkley, Ewing, Robinson KG, Oscar, West, Stockton and both Malones. Looking forward to it.

It's always tough watching video of that generation and making a judgement call because there game was so rigged (edit: rigid*, not rigged) that it just seems awkward compared to modern play. And there's always the argument of how are we weighing their rating... more so in dominance of their time relative to their competition, or more so of just who the better player is - discounting any advantages that future players picked up FROM those generations (be it nutrition, moves, etc.).

I mean, Big O is the dude first credited with bringing both the head fake and the fadeaway to the game!

Compare a top 5% modern day electrical engineer to the top 1% of yesteryear and his breadth of knowledge on the subject is going to dwarf the old-timer, but that's because the current man has been fortunate enough to build off the foundation of pops. Does that make him greater? And if not, at what point IS he greater? Does he need to improve on the field in his own significant way?

These debates are fun, and I'm just trying to illuminate how un-concrete the rankings are depending on the perspective of the person and how they're choosing to rank "greatness".

Sly Guy
07-16-2011, 06:47 PM
this poll is only serving to remind me of how old I am. And how young PSD is.

DR_1
07-16-2011, 06:47 PM
Dirk>Duncan

tredigs
07-16-2011, 06:48 PM
Hakeem never dominated the game like Duncan or some of the others listed ahead of him, but its a shame how some people like to glorify players who are long gone over others who have achieved a tremendous amount of more success.

Duncan should win this for sure. He deserved the 9 spot.

You know how in the other thread when I stated there was no chance you saw prime MJ? Let's just double that up. Hakeem was dominant 2 ways like I've never seen, more so than the great Timmy D. He was still owning everyone in the playoffs at 34 (Duncan's current age). And in the golden age of the Center.

That threads over now, but Yikes.

tredigs
07-16-2011, 06:51 PM
Dirk>Duncan

That's basically akin to saying Melo > Lebron.

dnewguy
07-16-2011, 06:52 PM
If the draft was done today, all 30 teams will pick Lebron James. Stop hating, he should be top 10. BTW, Duncan should be ahead of Kobe and Shaq, he's better.

tredigs
07-16-2011, 06:58 PM
If the draft was done today, all 30 teams will pick Lebron James. Stop hating, he should be top 10. BTW, Duncan should be ahead of Kobe and Shaq, he's better.

Aside from the fact that this is only one way to look at a "best player" ranking, I'm not so sure about that. You're looking at a prime Lebron but obviously forgetting (or not knowing) how dominant prime Duncan, KG, etc. were. Being that dominant 2 way bigs are the most sought after commodity in the sport, that's probably a tough argument to make at this point.

ReggieTimeGOAT
07-16-2011, 07:05 PM
Duncan, and I nominate Reggie Miller

Bruno
07-16-2011, 07:09 PM
This should be Duncan in a landslide.

Nominate Scottie Pippen, he should be on the list by this point.

alencp3
07-16-2011, 07:10 PM
I nominate the best ballhandler ever and one of the most exciting passers and scorers of all time Mr Maravich

Khalifa21
07-16-2011, 07:21 PM
Duncan should've gone earlier I feel... At least ahead of Kobe. #10 will have to do for him.

Sadds The Gr8
07-16-2011, 07:23 PM
If the draft was done today, all 30 teams will pick Lebron James. Stop hating, he should be top 10. BTW, Duncan should be ahead of Kobe and Shaq, he's better.

u never fail to disappoint.

Chacarron
07-16-2011, 07:25 PM
Timmy D.

Lake_Show2416
07-16-2011, 07:37 PM
If the draft was done today, all 30 teams will pick Lebron James. Stop hating, he should be top 10. BTW, Duncan should be ahead of Kobe and Shaq, he's better.

:facepalm:

RealistFan
07-16-2011, 07:41 PM
I'm glad Dream got the 9th spot. Duncan should win this one fairly easily though. I think you should also reduce the amount of nominees as it is really a huge cluster. Some of those guys won't get a single vote in the upcoming rounds so it's unnecessary keeping them in the poll.

legalize
07-16-2011, 08:04 PM
You know how in the other thread when I stated there was no chance you saw prime MJ? Let's just double that up. Hakeem was dominant 2 ways like I've never seen, more so than the great Timmy D. He was still owning everyone in the playoffs at 34 (Duncan's current age). And in the golden age of the Center.

That threads over now, but Yikes.

Dominant in terms of winning my friend. You can put up great numbers, but Duncan won more on a consistent level. Thats the best way to show dominance. Hakeem was certainly a dominant players, but Duncan just won more and in that sense, he was more dominant to me.

tredigs
07-16-2011, 08:11 PM
Dominant in terms of winning my friend. You can put up great numbers, but Duncan won more on a consistent level. Thats the best way to show dominance. Hakeem was certainly a dominant players, but Duncan just won more and in that sense, he was more dominant to me.

So, you put absolutely no context into the argument what so ever? Shaq being with Kobe while Dream was playing without All-Stars, and in the same era as Jordan's Bulls? Edit: And Duncan with Manu + TP + D. Rob early on. C'mon.

Stats aside, Hakeem was simply a more dominant player. Probably the best defensive center of all time, and the offense was entirely ran through him. Eh - why do I bother with you.

legalize
07-16-2011, 08:33 PM
So, you put absolutely no context into the argument what so ever? Shaq being with Kobe while Dream was playing without All-Stars, and in the same era as Jordan's Bulls? Edit: And Duncan with Manu + TP + D. Rob early on. C'mon.

Stats aside, Hakeem was simply a more dominant player. Probably the best defensive center of all time, and the offense was entirely ran through him. Eh - why do I bother with you.

So the fact that Hakeem couldnt get past MJ should be a pass for him? I dont think so. If Hakeem was able to get passed MJ's Bulls then that would have most certainly helped his claim in this situation. And please dont act like he didnt have a great team. He was surrounded by tremendous role players and a HOF in Drexler when he won his 2nd ring.

kozelkid
07-16-2011, 08:36 PM
So, you put absolutely no context into the argument what so ever? Shaq being with Kobe while Dream was playing without All-Stars, and in the same era as Jordan's Bulls? Edit: And Duncan with Manu + TP + D. Rob early on. C'mon.

Stats aside, Hakeem was simply a more dominant player. Probably the best defensive center of all time, and the offense was entirely ran through him. Eh - why do I bother with you.

I agree with you Tre but bolded is a very weak argument considering Houston and Chicago never faced off in the finals.

bagwell368
07-16-2011, 08:45 PM
^^ only someone who never saw him play could claim Hakeem wasn't dominant - look at his defense. He's certainly the greatest all around center of all time, and the only Center I can think of with a truly great inside game that could also pop in the 15' J with no trouble. You might want to get a look at those steals and blocks numbers, or better yet get some tape.

Jerry West was a heck of a player, but by this poll he might end up 11-13 range... that's way too high, he's in the #25-30 range.

tredigs
07-16-2011, 08:48 PM
So the fact that Hakeem couldnt get past MJ should be a pass for him? I dont think so. If Hakeem was able to get passed MJ's Bulls then that would have most certainly helped his claim in this situation. And please dont act like he didnt have a great team. He was surrounded by tremendous role players and a HOF in Drexler when he won his 2nd ring.

"Tremendous" is a stretch, without him the team is absolutely devoid of success ala Lebron in Cleveland (well, maybe not THAT bad, but close). Certainly not a playoff caliber roster.

Duncan in SAS - you're looking at a HOF center and/or HOF shooting guard, All-Star PG and one of the greatest coaches/organizations in NBA history. And that is HIS ENTIRE CAREER. Don't forget that Parker was a finals MVP in one run and Manu was 1 vote short in another - they are absolutely integral to their success. Hakeem got an old Drexler join his team post-championship and simply repeated, while dominating the series and leaving absolutely zero doubt who the finals MVP would be.

And Kozel, agreed - I mention it because some like to argue that his two championships are tainted just because Jordan was out for a year. The teams were still fantastic that he was going against, and the head to head competition throughout his career at the Center position was far stiffer than what Duncan saw in his.

You're just fully not understanding the skill/dominance level of Hakeem. When you make D. Robinson your lifelong play toy, you're a ****ing beast.

bagwell368
07-16-2011, 08:51 PM
So the fact that Hakeem couldnt get past MJ should be a pass for him? I dont think so. If Hakeem was able to get passed MJ's Bulls then that would have most certainly helped his claim in this situation. And please dont act like he didnt have a great team. He was surrounded by tremendous role players and a HOF in Drexler when he won his 2nd ring.

I love guys that try to re-write history w/o actually knowing what it was. Fatuous.

By all means look at every year from '84-'97 for say Jordan and Hakeem and look at the top 4 guys each played with, after you look at each year you can come back and say what you saw - that Hakeem did not have a strong team to play with. Look at all the great teams Wilt played for compared to his title count. Or Moses Malone.

Hawkeye15
07-16-2011, 08:53 PM
Getting ready to make a case for the Round Mount of Rebound following Duncan here.

seriously, I may be with you.

pd7631
07-16-2011, 08:53 PM
Man, this is so hard to pick from Moses, Duncan, the Doctor, Oscar, and the Mailman.

I think I gotta go with Oscar Robertson, the guy flat out did everything.

Hawkeye15
07-16-2011, 08:54 PM
So the fact that Hakeem couldnt get past MJ should be a pass for him? I dont think so. If Hakeem was able to get passed MJ's Bulls then that would have most certainly helped his claim in this situation. And please dont act like he didnt have a great team. He was surrounded by tremendous role players and a HOF in Drexler when he won his 2nd ring.

Dirk just became the first star to win a chip with no other legit star help on his team whatsoever since Hakeem. Hakeem carried those teams. Did his role players step at at opportune times? Sure. But they wouldn't have been in the position to win if Hakeem didn't dominate every single game.

Besides, that poll is done. Move on.

kozelkid
07-16-2011, 08:55 PM
"Tremendous" is a stretch, without him the team is absolutely devoid of success ala Lebron in Cleveland (well, maybe not THAT bad, but close). Certainly not a playoff caliber roster.

Duncan in SAS - you're looking at a HOF center and/or HOF shooting guard, All-Star PG and one of the greatest coaches/organizations in NBA history. And that is HIS ENTIRE CAREER. Don't forget that Parker was a finals MVP in one run and Manu was 1 vote short in another - they are absolutely integral to their success. Hakeem got an old Drexler join his team post-championship and simply repeated, while dominating the series and leaving absolutely zero doubt who the finals MVP would be.

And Kozel, agreed - I mention it because some like to argue that his two championships are tainted just because Jordan was out for a year. The teams were still fantastic that he was going against, and the head to head competition throughout his career at the Center position was far stiffer than what Duncan saw in his.

You're just fully not understanding the skill/dominance level of Hakeem. When you make D. Robinson your lifelong play toy, you're a ****ing beast.

Fair enough. I also think that if any team could have beaten MJ's Bulls, it was the 95 Rockets given that Chicago didn't have anyone at the time that could slow Hakeem down (Grant wasn't with Chicago anymore and Rodman didn't join yet( and Maxwell was probably one of the best defenders against MJ.

Alas, we will never know.

However, Hakeem definitely was probably one of best all around centers I have ever seen. Joy to watch.

bagwell368
07-16-2011, 09:01 PM
Dominant in terms of winning my friend. You can put up great numbers, but Duncan won more on a consistent level. Thats the best way to show dominance. Hakeem was certainly a dominant players, but Duncan just won more and in that sense, he was more dominant to me.

That's ridiculous. You are totally discounting the strength of the relative teams.

Out of the top 9 plus Duncan, Hakeem had by far the weakest cast to work with. Think about it, or better yet study it.

JordansBulls
07-16-2011, 09:22 PM
Dominant in terms of winning my friend. You can put up great numbers, but Duncan won more on a consistent level. Thats the best way to show dominance. Hakeem was certainly a dominant players, but Duncan just won more and in that sense, he was more dominant to me.

Duncan went straight to a team that had David Robinson who was averaging 21/11 and 3 in 1998. Duncan didn't go to a true lottery team. SA got the #1 pick because of Robinson's injury. But then again Hakeem went to the Rockets when the Rockets already had the #1 pick the season before and the guy who made the allstar team 4 years in a row in his first 4 years.

Lakersfan2483
07-16-2011, 09:50 PM
Tim Duncan, the best power forward of all time. Mr. fundamental. lol

GoPacers33
07-16-2011, 09:53 PM
Timmay all day

Swashcuff
07-16-2011, 09:57 PM
seriously, I may be with you.

patsSOXknicks got some interesting results from his method that would be in support of Chuck at 11.

Kobes a Killer
07-16-2011, 09:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0&feature=related

Legen........ Wait for it........ Dary

210Don
07-16-2011, 10:04 PM
i highly doubt hakeem would dominate timmy like he did 50. jus sayin

astrosmaniac
07-16-2011, 10:06 PM
So the fact that Hakeem couldnt get past MJ should be a pass for him? I dont think so. If Hakeem was able to get passed MJ's Bulls then that would have most certainly helped his claim in this situation. And please dont act like he didnt have a great team. He was surrounded by tremendous role players and a HOF in Drexler when he won his 2nd ring.

As I believe MBS posted in the other thread, Hakeem only played MJ once in the playoffs in his career (or something similar). And he didn't have to go through MJ. Barkleys suns, Stockton-Malone jazz, the sonics, etc. The great teams go on and on

Oh and I'm pretty sure nobody got past MJ for those 6 years he won. The 2 years in between that someone besides MJ won WAS hakeeem. If Duncan had played in the late 85-98ish era, he doesn't win 4 titles

His supporting cast has never been as good as duncans. Drexler was good in 94, but definitely not the drexler that earned him that HOF honor

Kobes a Killer
07-16-2011, 10:07 PM
i highly doubt hakeem would dominate timmy like he did 50. jus sayin

Too strong for Timmy Bro

210Don
07-16-2011, 10:10 PM
Too strong for Timmy Bro

woulda been great to see though huh

FlakeyFool
07-16-2011, 10:10 PM
Why isn't Micheal Bradley on this list

bagwell368
07-16-2011, 10:47 PM
But then again Hakeem went to the Rockets when the Rockets already had the #1 pick the season before and the guy who made the allstar team 4 years in a row in his first 4 years.

This about the 4th time you posted this, why don't you name him? He was a stiff. Ralph Sampson:

WS:

6.0
6.2
5.0
2.2
0.6

His name got him the ASG, not his skill. He was one of the greatest failures in NBA history. Hakeem was almost twice as good right from day 1.

Now go ahead and answer my other point. That out of the top 9 vote getters plus Duncan, I say Hakeem had the weakest cast. Can you disprove it?

bagwell368
07-16-2011, 10:49 PM
i highly doubt hakeem would dominate timmy like he did 50. jus sayin

I don't.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-16-2011, 10:54 PM
I'm going to say Duncan but feel reluctant to do so because I'd be putting him ahead of West and Oscar.

JordansBulls
07-16-2011, 10:54 PM
This about the 4th time you posted this, why don't you name him? He was a stiff. Ralph Sampson:

WS:

6.0
6.2
5.0
2.2
0.6

His name got him the ASG, not his skill. He was one of the greatest failures in NBA history. Hakeem was almost twice as good right from day 1.

Now go ahead and answer my other point. That out of the top 9 vote getters plus Duncan, I say Hakeem had the weakest cast. Can you disprove it?

Hakeem came in with a guy who made the allstar game 4 years in a row and who was there before him. You mention Sampson's win shares, but it was Sampson who won the game against LA in 1986 when Hakeem got ejected by not helping the team.

The other part of your post is irrelevant as Hakeem isn't part of this debate anymore. But I'll answer anyway.

Hakeem also got players that were already good from the get go in Sampson and then later on in Drexler, Barkley and Pippen.

Barkley led the Rockets in PER and Win Shares in 1997 despite playing 25 less games than Hakeem.

In 1998 Barkley, Drexler and Willis had more win shares than Hakeem.
Barkley had a higher PER in 1998 and Drexler led the team in scoring.

In 1995 Drexler led the team in win shares in the playoffs.

So yes for the Rockets Hakeem played not only with a guy who won league MVP in Barkley but also someone who led a team to the finals twice as the man in Drexler.

But that is off topic.

NBAfan4life
07-17-2011, 02:28 AM
I voted Duncan. I hope this poll closes quickly so it can be interesting again.

THE GIPPER
07-17-2011, 03:09 AM
seriously, I may be with you.

I may be way off here because i didnt see much of sir charles but was he better than lebron james?

Ebbs
07-17-2011, 05:38 AM
The all time leader in triple dubs is still chilling

Kobes a Killer
07-17-2011, 05:54 AM
woulda been great to see though huh

Yep

Geargo Wallace
07-17-2011, 09:08 AM
Dirk>Duncan
lol when were you born?

If the draft was done today, all 30 teams will pick Lebron James. Stop hating, he should be top 10. BTW, Duncan should be ahead of Kobe and Shaq, he's better.
I'd agree that most teams would pick LeBron over Kobe. You're trippin' otherwise.

u never fail to disappoint.
ahahhahaahahaha

But that is off topic.

yup. way to point out a couple of seasons that Hakeem had help.

Geargo Wallace
07-17-2011, 09:16 AM
I'm not surprised, but Rick Barry was one hell of a player, and he's getting zero love. I wish someone would throw some info on this guy. He had game. He won a ship without all stars (I think?). I understand that he was a huge douchebag, so his peers don't bother to boost him. Also he left the NBA to play in the ABA (I think? All of this is off of the top of my head).

D-Will4Prez
07-17-2011, 12:01 PM
I think the order should be a bit different, but all 10 of these guys definitely belong in the top 10.

tcav701
07-17-2011, 12:13 PM
I think the order should be a bit different, but all 10 of these guys definitely belong in the top 10.

Yeah, I liked Duncan-Hakeem-Kobe but its actually a pretty good list considering the average age on here.

bagwell368
07-17-2011, 12:19 PM
Hakeem came in with a guy who made the allstar game 4 years in a row and who was there before him. You mention Sampson's win shares, but it was Sampson who won the game against LA in 1986 when Hakeem got ejected by not helping the team.

I don't care if Sampson was on the AS team 4 years in a row, he was a very sub standard player for a 4 year in a row all star - perhaps one of the worst 10 such players of all time. Sampson was crap and you know it. Stop standing behind that clown. Let's here you say this guy was ever as good as Pippen? How about Thorpe? How about the Drexler or Charles that Hakeem got late - any of those guys ever as good as Pippen in his six best years. Let's deface Jordan's rep for having a much better side kick then Hakeem ever had.


The other part of your post is irrelevant as Hakeem isn't part of this debate anymore. But I'll answer anyway.

Poppycock. If you are going to boost his teammates (which you have done several times, and I have torn to shreds several times), then lets here the judgement - a true judgement - right here.


Hakeem also got players that were already good from the get go in Sampson and then later on in Drexler, Barkley and Pippen.

Yes you've hidden behind them too, when did he get them. Wasn't Barkely best year in Houston his 11th best year overall? It was. And Drexler had one big year 1/2 year in Houston, but not as good as his 4 best years earlier on. Pippen's best year in Houston was his 12th best year of his career - oh yeah, what prime help Hakeem had........... those guys you cite all in decline, the first one a fraud of the highest magnitude. What about in between? Many years with Otis Thorpe as his best sidekick. Yeah, great.


Barkley led the Rockets in PER and Win Shares in 1997 despite playing 25 less games than Hakeem.

Hakeem was 34 having his last good year, not a great year.


In 1998 Barkley, Drexler and Willis had more win shares than Hakeem.
Barkley had a higher PER in 1998 and Drexler led the team in scoring.

Hakeem 35 and having his first poor year - after 13 stellar years. Where was Hakeem's support between 1984-1996? Otis Thorpe and 1/2 a year and 1 greate playoffs from Drexler, what would Jordan have done with that support?


So yes for the Rockets Hakeem played not only with a guy who won league MVP in Barkley but also someone who led a team to the finals twice as the man in Drexler.

But that is off topic.

The Barkely that went to Houston bore no comparison to the one that dominated the NBA from '86-'93, and its disingenuous to even compare the two. It's a joke - actually it's garbage.

You have stated that Hakeem is one of your favorite players and yet you spare no effort to run him down - the proof is right here on PSD. What's the motivation if you like the guy so much to tear him down with the same old arguments that I've knocked over before.

Why not talk about 1998? Hakeem was in decline but he was playing while Jordan was avoided being tossed out of the NBA for his egregious gambling problems.

JordansBulls
07-17-2011, 01:53 PM
I don't care if Sampson was on the AS team 4 years in a row, he was a very sub standard player for a 4 year in a row all star - perhaps one of the worst 10 such players of all time. Sampson was crap and you know it. Stop standing behind that clown. Let's here you say this guy was ever as good as Pippen? How about Thorpe? How about the Drexler or Charles that Hakeem got late - any of those guys ever as good as Pippen in his six best years. Let's deface Jordan's rep for having a much better side kick then Hakeem ever had.

Hakeem got to play with guys who led teams to the finals as the man and who won league mvp. You say Barkley and Drexler were old, yet Pippen and Rodman were even older in 1998 when the Bulls won. Hakeem got Pippen the year after the Bulls won and they lost in round 1.




Poppycock. If you are going to boost his teammates (which you have done several times, and I have torn to shreds several times), then lets here the judgement - a true judgement - right here.

I break your argument down each and every time.




Yes you've hidden behind them too, when did he get them. Wasn't Barkely best year in Houston his 11th best year overall? It was. And Drexler had one big year 1/2 year in Houston, but not as good as his 4 best years earlier on. Pippen's best year in Houston was his 12th best year of his career - oh yeah, what prime help Hakeem had........... those guys you cite all in decline, the first one a fraud of the highest magnitude. What about in between? Many years with Otis Thorpe as his best sidekick. Yeah, great.

And Barkley and Drexler led in win shares over Hakeem as well.




Hakeem was 34 having his last good year, not a great year.

And? MJ was 35 and was the best in the league with having his 2nd best player injured half the season.




Hakeem 35 and having his first poor year - after 13 stellar years. Where was Hakeem's support between 1984-1996? Otis Thorpe and 1/2 a year and 1 greate playoffs from Drexler, what would Jordan have done with that support?


Hakeem had prime Sampson a guy who made the allstar games 4 years in a row and who actually led the Rockets against the Lakers in the finale on the road when Hakeem was not helping his team by getting ejected. Not to mention hit the game winner. Hakeem in his career actually had more allstars on his team than Jordan did. Jordan had Pippen who made the allstar team for 5 years when MJ was there, while Hakeem had Sampson for 4 years, Thorpe in 1992, Drexler in 1996, Drexler and Barkley in 1997.




The Barkely that went to Houston bore no comparison to the one that dominated the NBA from '86-'93, and its disingenuous to even compare the two. It's a joke - actually it's garbage.
Doesn't matter he still got a guy who outproduced him when he joined Houston. He led in PER and WS and WS/PER 48 over Hakeem. So you can say what you want, but the stats point to that Hakeem had plenty of help when Barkley came even so much so that he had better stats than Hakeem.




You have stated that Hakeem is one of your favorite players and yet you spare no effort to run him down - the proof is right here on PSD. What's the motivation if you like the guy so much to tear him down with the same old arguments that I've knocked over before.

Why not talk about 1998? Hakeem was in decline but he was playing while Jordan was avoided being tossed out of the NBA for his egregious gambling problems.

He is one of my favorite players as you can see here ---> http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16563525&postcount=1 but you overrate him. You have said that Hakeem was better than Russell and Kareem, how is that not overrating him?
In 1991 Hakeem was 3rd team behind Robinson and Ewing guys who were better than him that year. In 1992 Hakeem in the middle of his prime didn't even make an all NBA team but yet had another allstar that year on the team.

tredigs
07-17-2011, 02:26 PM
^ Barkley led in PER/WS in the REGULAR season his first year there JB. In the playoffs, Hakeem turned it on as he always did, and was by far the most dominant on the team at 34 with a younger Barkley - along with Drex - playing the clear 2nd/3rd fiddle.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-17-2011, 02:33 PM
I don't see how Hakeem had that much help during his career but I don't really see how he can compare favorably with MJ either. Frankly, numbers wise, he's not really close to MJ. Then again, no one really is.

Statistically, he doesn't compare well with Kareem either but then again, Kareem played his early years in the "pre-stats" era, which were not coincidentally, his best years in terms of PER and Win Shares.

Admittedly, I'm too young to have seen Kareem and I barely remember Hakeem so from an individual talent standpoint, Hakeem may have been better. Production wise (statistically), he isn't. But again, Kareem's first 4 years came "pre-stats" and were his best in terms of WS and PER.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-17-2011, 02:47 PM
^ Barkley led in PER/WS in the REGULAR season his first year there JB. In the playoffs, Hakeem turned it on as he always did, and was by far the most dominant on the team at 34 with a younger Barkley - along with Drex - playing the clear 2nd/3rd fiddle.

Yeah, another good point. Hakeeem was BETTER in the postseason then the regular season. In fact, his regular season #'s used to be consistently behind DRob but in the postseason, he was a different animal.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html

Using WS/48, MJ raised his game. Surprisingly, Dwight Howard, although he's got a very limited sample size of games. Walt Frazier also and Billups. And of course Hakeem. Everyone else witnessed a decrease in their WS/48 from the regular season to postseason. And out of that group I listed, Hakeem and MJ are the only all-time greats.

tredigs
07-17-2011, 02:49 PM
I don't see how Hakeem had that much help during his career but I don't really see how he can compare favorably with MJ either. Frankly, numbers wise, he's not really close to MJ. Then again, no one really is.

Statistically, he doesn't compare well with Kareem either but then again, Kareem played his early years in the "pre-stats" era, which were not coincidentally, his best years in terms of PER and Win Shares.

Admittedly, I'm too young to have seen Kareem and I barely remember Hakeem so from an individual talent standpoint, Hakeem may have been better. Production wise (statistically), he isn't. But again, Kareem's first 4 years came "pre-stats" and were his best in terms of WS and PER.

I don't think it's comparing MJ to Hakeem head to head necessarily, just highlighting the degree of help that Jordan - and every other top ten player on the list - clearly had throughout their career relative to Hakeem.

I think JB's also failing to take into proper consideration the growth that MJ and Pippen/Grant and later Rodman, etc were able to form being that they essentially came up together and were able to take half a decade to peak before they began making title runs. That's far different than past their prime elite talent joining a team when Hakeem himself was already past his prime.

There really is no argument that MJ, Wilt, Russel, Bird, Magic, KAJ, Shaq, Kobe or Duncan had less help or for a shorter period of time than. Even Barkley came into the league with a near-prime Moses Malone and an aging but still highly potent Dr. J for his first couple playoff runs. Followed by prime Majerlie, KJ, Cebanos in Phoenix, then Hakeem + Clyde in Houston. Really, the only guys who spent such a large portion of their careers with less help than Hakeem was Lebron and KG. And Hakeem was the only one who took those squads to a championship - back to back no less.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-17-2011, 03:01 PM
I don't think it's comparing MJ to Hakeem head to head necessarily, just highlighting the degree of help that Jordan - and every other top ten player on the list - clearly had throughout their career relative to Hakeem.

I think JB's also failing to take into proper consideration the growth that MJ and Pippen/Grant and later Rodman, etc were able to form being that they essentially came up together and were able to take half a decade to peak before they began making title runs. That's far different than past their prime elite talent joining a team when Hakeem himself was already past his prime.

There really is no argument that MJ, Wilt, Russel, Bird, Magic, KAJ, Shaq, Kobe or Duncan had less help or for a shorter period of time than. Even Barkley came into the league with a near-prime Moses Malone and an aging but still highly potent Dr. J for his first couple playoff runs. Followed by prime Majerlie, KJ, Cebanos in Phoenix, then Hakeem + Clyde in Houston. Really, the only guys who spent such a large portion of their careers with less help than Hakeem was Lebron and KG. And Hakeem was the only one who took those squads to a championship - back to back no less.

No doubt Hakeem had the least amount of help out of the all-time greats. Although, I think a prime DRob (before he got Duncan) didn't have much help either. Perhaps comparable to what Hakeem had. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that Hakeem dominated DRob in that playoff series and the fact that in general, Hakeem was better in the postseason.

And watch out for JB now, he's going to go on about how Lebron had a great team in Cleveland because he had Shaq and Ben Wallace lol. As for KG, his performance severely declined in the postseason.

legalize
07-17-2011, 03:29 PM
No doubt Hakeem had the least amount of help out of the all-time greats. Although, I think a prime DRob (before he got Duncan) didn't have much help either. Perhaps comparable to what Hakeem had. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that Hakeem dominated DRob in that playoff series and the fact that in general, Hakeem was better in the postseason.

And watch out for JB now, he's going to go on about how Lebron had a great team in Cleveland because he had Shaq and Ben Wallace lol. As for KG, his performance severely declined in the postseason.

Lebron had a good team in cleaveland. THey certainly werent great but they were surely good enough to win a title had Lebron stayed. Everybody making it seem as if he played with a bunch of scrubs is insane. Lebron had help and thus, the Cavs were the best team during the span of the regular season for the 2 years before LBJ left. Its just that when it mattered most, the Cavs, including Lebron himself folded under the pressure. That was a talented squad, surely good enough to get over the hump had Lebron stayed. However, Lebron is on the most stacked team in the league now so lets see how he does.

And KG on the Wolves had the worse squad out of anyone of the guys mentioned, including Hakeem and Lebron.

NYKalltheway
07-17-2011, 03:38 PM
Wow am I the only one who voted for Moses Malone? I'd pick Duncan, but just making a statement for #11 coz I knew he'd be winning it easily :p

PatsSoxKnicks
07-17-2011, 03:45 PM
Lebron had a good team in cleaveland. THey certainly werent great but they were surely good enough to win a title had Lebron stayed. Everybody making it seem as if he played with a bunch of scrubs is insane. Lebron had help and thus, the Cavs were the best team during the span of the regular season for the 2 years before LBJ left. Its just that when it mattered most, the Cavs, including Lebron himself folded under the pressure. That was a talented squad, surely good enough to get over the hump had Lebron stayed. However, Lebron is on the most stacked team in the league now so lets see how he does.

And KG on the Wolves had the worse squad out of anyone of the guys mentioned, including Hakeem and Lebron.

Lebron most definitely has a stacked team right now and his failures in the finals were the main reason the Heat didn't win the championship. I won't dispute that. It could be a black stain on his resume by the end of his career but lets first see where he and the Heat go from here.

However, to say he had good enough teams in Cleveland is ridiculous. Those teams sucked outside of LBJ. Heck, if you want further proof, look at the Cavs record this year. They self destructed without Lebron. He WAS that team. He was the sole reason they had the best record 2 years in a row. The Cavs typically had deep teams in that their 13th player was above average but the big problem with that is that if you're 2nd best player is someone of the caliber of Mo Williams, you won't go very far. None of his teams had a player with a PER over 20, which is typically all-star caliber.

Can you legitimately tell me that Lebron ever had a top 20 player in the NBA at the time on ANY of his Cleveland teams? Nope. An old Shaq and an old Ben Wallace who were far past their primes don't count. Mo Williams as his 2nd best player? Seriously? And going up against a far more talented Celtics team each year.

And also, with the exception of the Finals, no, Lebron hasn't really failed under pressure. He's gone up against better TEAMS, in most cases. You can't seriously tell me that the Celtics team, with 3 future HOFers and an emerging PG in Rondo wasn't better then Lebron, and Mo Williams.

However, check his playoff numbers. They're just as good as his regular season numbers. I suppose he's failed in a couple moments here and there, like against the Celts last year where he supposedly quit. But for every moment like that, there's an unbelievable performance he's had in the playoffs. Such as the 24 straight points in the ECF against the Pistons. Or did you forget about that? How about the 3 point game winner he had against the Magic a couple years ago? Or the numerous triple double's he's posted? Your reaction towards Lebron is a very in the moment reaction. You saw him fail in the Finals, thus he sucks under pressure. Despite the fact that you're ignoring the rest of his career.

Lebron's performance has actually stayed pretty consistent in the regular season and Finals. His WS/48 is one of the few to remain relatively consistent. So do his shooting %'s (TS%, eFG%), so does his Ast%, TOV%, etc.

Most of America hates Lebron. And I do think as a person, he's got very questionable character. However, as a player, you can't deny that he's a great one. And his detractors often cite his poor playoff performances, all the while forgetting the great ones. Thats the problem with society today, everyone is very "in the moment".

You stick any all-time great on Lebron's Cleveland teams and there's very few of them who could win with that supporting cast. They could probably get by in the regular season, like Lebron did but come playoff time going up against a very talented Celtics team, nope. That team was basically a bunch of shooters around Lebron and thats no way to build a team.

But hey if you want to run down the list of players Lebron has had, are any of them as good as Pau Gasol, Shaq, Ginobili, Parker, Pippen, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, ect.? Every once in awhile, there is a less talented team then typical champions that slips through the cracks, like the Mavs this year, or the Pistons in 04, or the Rockets in 94 but it doesn't happen very often. Dirk and Hakeem have both done something that even MJ hasn't done but that doesn't make either of them better players.

legalize
07-17-2011, 04:53 PM
Lebron most definitely has a stacked team right now and his failures in the finals were the main reason the Heat didn't win the championship. I won't dispute that. It could be a black stain on his resume by the end of his career but lets first see where he and the Heat go from here.

However, to say he had good enough teams in Cleveland is ridiculous. Those teams sucked outside of LBJ. Heck, if you want further proof, look at the Cavs record this year. They self destructed without Lebron. He WAS that team. He was the sole reason they had the best record 2 years in a row. The Cavs typically had deep teams in that their 13th player was above average but the big problem with that is that if you're 2nd best player is someone of the caliber of Mo Williams, you won't go very far. None of his teams had a player with a PER over 20, which is typically all-star caliber.

Can you legitimately tell me that Lebron ever had a top 20 player in the NBA at the time on ANY of his Cleveland teams? Nope. An old Shaq and an old Ben Wallace who were far past their primes don't count. Mo Williams as his 2nd best player? Seriously? And going up against a far more talented Celtics team each year.

And also, with the exception of the Finals, no, Lebron hasn't really failed under pressure. He's gone up against better TEAMS, in most cases. You can't seriously tell me that the Celtics team, with 3 future HOFers and an emerging PG in Rondo wasn't better then Lebron, and Mo Williams.

However, check his playoff numbers. They're just as good as his regular season numbers. I suppose he's failed in a couple moments here and there, like against the Celts last year where he supposedly quit. But for every moment like that, there's an unbelievable performance he's had in the playoffs. Such as the 24 straight points in the ECF against the Pistons. Or did you forget about that? How about the 3 point game winner he had against the Magic a couple years ago? Or the numerous triple double's he's posted? Your reaction towards Lebron is a very in the moment reaction. You saw him fail in the Finals, thus he sucks under pressure. Despite the fact that you're ignoring the rest of his career.

Lebron's performance has actually stayed pretty consistent in the regular season and Finals. His WS/48 is one of the few to remain relatively consistent. So do his shooting %'s (TS%, eFG%), so does his Ast%, TOV%, etc.

Most of America hates Lebron. And I do think as a person, he's got very questionable character. However, as a player, you can't deny that he's a great one. And his detractors often cite his poor playoff performances, all the while forgetting the great ones. Thats the problem with society today, everyone is very "in the moment".

You stick any all-time great on Lebron's Cleveland teams and there's very few of them who could win with that supporting cast. They could probably get by in the regular season, like Lebron did but come playoff time going up against a very talented Celtics team, nope. That team was basically a bunch of shooters around Lebron and thats no way to build a team.

But hey if you want to run down the list of players Lebron has had, are any of them as good as Pau Gasol, Shaq, Ginobili, Parker, Pippen, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, ect.? Every once in awhile, there is a less talented team then typical champions that slips through the cracks, like the Mavs this year, or the Pistons in 04, or the Rockets in 94 but it doesn't happen very often. Dirk and Hakeem have both done something that even MJ hasn't done but that doesn't make either of them better players.

Never said Lebron had a stacked team that was guaranteed a title. People like to give Lebron a pass and assert that he had a scrub team in Cleavland and thats why he wasnt successful there. My point is he had good role players around him on the Cavs. He did not have one particular top 20 player but he had a team filled with a bunch of good players. They were a top defensive team in the league for a number of years because of his teammates. Furthermore, im not holding it against Lebron for not winning a title. Winning a title is extremely difficult even with a great team. However, when the Cavs were eliminated from the playoffs, even when the Heat lost last year, Lebron's performances were dismal to say the least. He has not performed well in the playoffs. You keep pointing out his numbers. A player can put up good individual numbers to the detriment of his team. Lebron simply has not performed well when it mattered the most in the playoffs. A few years ago when the Celtics beat the Cavs, Lebron was simply shell-shocked and threw in the towel. Last year in the Finals, Lebron was absolutely shut down in the 4th quarter when every single one of those games were close.

Dont get me wrong when I say Lebron had a good team in Cleavland. They werent HOFers in their primes on that team, but he certainly had a team capable of winning a title within the next few years if he stuck around. And while his individual numbers might be ok in the playoffs, his performances when it mattered the most have been absolutely lacking.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-17-2011, 05:24 PM
Never said Lebron had a stacked team that was guaranteed a title. People like to give Lebron a pass and assert that he had a scrub team in Cleavland and thats why he wasnt successful there. My point is he had good role players around him on the Cavs. He did not have one particular top 20 player but he had a team filled with a bunch of good players.

Right, now go down the list of NBA Champions and name me a bunch of teams that won a championship with 1 superstar and no other top 20 players.

I'm betting you can name maybe 2 or 3. The Mavs this past year, the Rockets in 94. Anyone else? Most NBA champions have 2 HOFers, never mind no top 20 players.

Now do you see why it's important to have at least a top 20 caliber player on your team to win a championship? Good role players are nice but they won't win you a championship.



They were a top defensive team in the league for a number of years because of his teammates.

No, they were a top defensive team in the league because of Lebron, who by the way, is one of the best defenders in the league right now. Lebron wasn't on the Cavs this year, how good were they defensively? 29th out of 30 teams. Ouch. To say that the Cavs were a top defensive team for a number of years because of Lebron's teammates and not Lebron himself is pretty ignorant.



Furthermore, im not holding it against Lebron for not winning a title. Winning a title is extremely difficult even with a great team. However, when the Cavs were eliminated from the playoffs, even when the Heat lost last year, Lebron's performances were dismal to say the least. He has not performed well in the playoffs. You keep pointing out his numbers. A player can put up good individual numbers to the detriment of his team. Lebron simply has not performed well when it mattered the most in the playoffs. A few years ago when the Celtics beat the Cavs, Lebron was simply shell-shocked and threw in the towel. Last year in the Finals, Lebron was absolutely shut down in the 4th quarter when every single one of those games were close.

First, it would behoove you to understand the numbers I'm posting first, which I doubt you do.

Second, how was Lebron putting up good individual numbers to the detriment of the team? His teammates were crap. Mo Williams, who's not a #2 on any championship team in any era, played even worse in the playoffs. Not only that but his teammates were a bunch of shooters, designed to be in support of Lebron's abilities. Without Lebron's numbers, the Cavs would have been, lets see, 20-62 or whatever they were this year.

I'm not surprised you chose to ignore the game against the Pistons where Lebron scored 25 straight points to close the game. Why does that game get erased from his history? Heck, the last 4 games of that series, the Pistons couldn't stop him. Or how about the shot he hit against the Magic in 2009 where he hit a game winner 3 pointer? Or how about all the 3's he hit against the Celtics and Bulls this year in crunch time? Did you not watch the Celts and Bulls play the Heat this year? Or did you conveniently forget some of the shots he hit?

I'm not saying he hasn't had bad moments in the playoffs but he's also had some great moments too, which you seem to conveniently ignore.



Dont get me wrong when I say Lebron had a good team in Cleavland. They werent HOFers in their primes on that team, but he certainly had a team capable of winning a title within the next few years if he stuck around. And while his individual numbers might be ok in the playoffs, his performances when it mattered the most have been absolutely lacking.

Right and how many teams do you know that win the championship without HOF caliber players? MJ's Bulls? Oh wait, they had Pippen. Shaq and Kobe's Lakers? Oh wait, they had each other. Recently, even the Lakers with Pau Gasol have had a great #2. Gasol is currently a top 10 player in the league and has got an outside shot at the HOF. Manu with the Spurs, also an outside shot at the HOF.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_active.html

Go by bball-ref's HOF probability and both have over 50-50 shots at making the HOF.

And we're talking HOFers, not even a top 20 player. Lebron hadn't even had that in Cleveland.

As for winning a title in the next few years, the Cavs won 20 games this year. You think Lebron could've won with that team? Or are you failing 101 logic again.

Right, so what about that time he scored 25 straight points to move the Cavs within 1 game of the Finals in 2007? I don't care what you say, that was one of the most incredible performances in playoff history. And that Pistons team was a good team defensively.

On a side note, when Kobe went 6-24 last year in game 7 against the Celtics, was he hurting his team? Or was he rising to the occasion? That's the problem with looking at team results to evaluate an individual. Kobe didn't play well in game 7 but his team won. Lebron has played well in quite a few elimination games and his team lost. You can't just look at wins and losses in the playoffs and determine the performance of an individual based solely on that.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-17-2011, 05:35 PM
^^^ Dude they were the best team in the regular season for two years in a row. They had the home court throughout the playoffs for 2 years in a row. Again nobody is saying he had these all time great teammates. But you cant just blame his teammates for them losing in the playoffs when Lebron himself performed to a dismal level. Yea, the Cavs didnt have HOFers left and right but they werent scrubs either. Lebron just did not perform when his team needed him most. This has been a trend throughout his entire career. Hes not known as a "clutch" player or a guy you would want the ball in his hands in the biggest stage. Its a mental factor with him...some guys have it some guys dont. So far in Lebron's career, he doesnt have the mentality to allow him to take over a game on the biggest stage. Maybe one day he'll get there, but so far he hasnt. So to give him all the credit and none of the blame will just not work.

Ok, I'm still waiting on you to name a championship team thats won without at least another top 20 player in addition to the superstar......

And there's a difference between the regular season and playoffs. Plus, had the Celtis been trying for the majority of last year and not resting their injured guys, I'm sure they would've had a better record.

25 straight points against the Pistons to win game 5.. Answer, great or not?

Unfortunately, you're just re-hashing the same tired arguments with no proof or facts involved.

PS- I never said he didn't deserve blame for this year's finals. He certainly did. But this was also the first time in his career, he's actually been surrounded with championship level talent.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-17-2011, 05:38 PM
We're getting off topic here anyways and since you're just saying the same thing over and over with no actual facts or proof involved, we're done here. In addition, I find it kind of ridiculous the way you credit individuals with wins and losses despite basketball being a TEAM effort.

You don't rate all-time greats 5 rings > 4 rings, so the guy with 5 must be better. The circumstances surrounding both need to be taken into account. I have not once seen you do that.

tredigs
07-17-2011, 05:56 PM
We're getting off topic here anyways and since you're just saying the same thing over and over with no actual facts or proof involved, we're done here. In addition, I find it kind of ridiculous the way you credit individuals with wins and losses despite basketball being a TEAM effort.

You don't rate all-time greats 5 rings > 4 rings, so the guy with 5 must be better. The circumstances surrounding both need to be taken into account. I have not once seen you do that.

It's so much easier to just rate people using such simple concepts though!

"Circumstances", "context", "value relative to your teammates", "logic". BLAH BLAH BLAH. RINGS 4 LYFE PATSOX!

bootsy
07-17-2011, 06:02 PM
Duncan should be a higher. Third time voting for him and looks like he will finally win.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-17-2011, 06:07 PM
It's so much easier to just rate people using such simple concepts though!

"Circumstances", "context", "value relative to your teammates", "logic". BLAH BLAH BLAH. RINGS 4 LYFE PATSOX!

You do have a point :laugh2:

cmellofan15
07-17-2011, 06:40 PM
nominate Wes Unseld
nominate Wes Unseld
nominate Wes Unseld
nominate Wes Unseld
nominate Wes Unseld
nominate Wes Unseld
nominate Wes Unseld

JordansBulls
07-17-2011, 06:45 PM
^^^ Dude they were the best team in the regular season for two years in a row. They had the home court throughout the playoffs for 2 years in a row. Again nobody is saying he had these all time great teammates. But you cant just blame his teammates for them losing in the playoffs when Lebron himself performed to a dismal level. Yea, the Cavs didnt have HOFers left and right but they werent scrubs either. Lebron just did not perform when his team needed him most. This has been a trend throughout his entire career. Hes not known as a "clutch" player or a guy you would want the ball in his hands in the biggest stage. Its a mental factor with him...some guys have it some guys dont. So far in Lebron's career, he doesnt have the mentality to allow him to take over a game on the biggest stage. Maybe one day he'll get there, but so far he hasnt. So to give him all the credit and none of the blame will just not work.

:clap:

cmellofan15
07-17-2011, 09:21 PM
everyone LeBron played with in Cleveland were indeed scrubs.

Swashcuff
07-17-2011, 09:31 PM
:clap:

It's obvious you'd clap for that you have a noted history of overrating LeBron's supporting casts on the Cavs.

Lake_Show2416
07-17-2011, 10:38 PM
all these dam Spurs homers :D

MTar786
07-17-2011, 10:55 PM
if duncan wins this then kg cant be too far off behind.. I went with oscar.

rings puts duncan ahead of KG easily.. but besides the rings.. i dont really see where duncan was better?
they were equals in rebounding (although i would say kg was better), better shooter and passer. he had that untouchable turn around fadeaway. Way better freethrow shooter, was slightly better defensively and he could do more than timmy. ie dribble the ball up the floor.
career stats are almost equal.. but you have to remember kg came out of higschool and had bad numbers his first 2 years. and kg also has been on the downside of his career for a good few season and timmy just started now. Even so, they have very similar number.
he had better prime season numbers than timmy.

i wonder how many rings kg would have if he had the players duncan had in his prime.. i think 4 just like tim

MTar786
07-17-2011, 11:04 PM
It's obvious you'd clap for that you have a noted history of overrating LeBron's supporting casts on the Cavs.

that is true.. he does over rate lebrons supporting cast back in cleveland.. but hey lebron couldnt even get it done with wade, bosh and a great supporting cast.. thats like a guaranteed championship.. and guess who COMPLETELY CHOKED? ledunk on kids

Korman12
07-17-2011, 11:18 PM
if duncan wins this then kg cant be too far off behind.. I went with oscar.

rings puts duncan ahead of KG easily.. but besides the rings.. i dont really see where duncan was better?
they were equals in rebounding (although i would say kg was better), better shooter and passer. he had that untouchable turn around fadeaway. Way better freethrow shooter, was slightly better defensively and he could do more than timmy. ie dribble the ball up the floor.
career stats are almost equal.. but you have to remember kg came out of higschool and had bad numbers his first 2 years. and kg also has been on the downside of his career for a good few season and timmy just started now. Even so, they have very similar number.
he had better prime season numbers than timmy.

i wonder how many rings kg would have if he had the players duncan had in his prime.. i think 4 just like tim

Also missing that during the playoffs Duncan's performances during the championship runs elevated to fairly profound levels.

Chronz
07-17-2011, 11:32 PM
KG and Duncan are comparable up until the playoffs began.

Swashcuff
07-17-2011, 11:37 PM
that is true.. he does over rate lebrons supporting cast back in cleveland.. but hey lebron couldnt even get it done with wade, bosh and a great supporting cast.. thats like a guaranteed championship.. and guess who COMPLETELY CHOKED? ledunk on kids

Ok before you turn this into a LeBron hate thread I'll say no more on this topic.

juno10
07-17-2011, 11:44 PM
^^^ Dude they were the best team in the regular season for two years in a row. They had the home court throughout the playoffs for 2 years in a row. Again nobody is saying he had these all time great teammates. But you cant just blame his teammates for them losing in the playoffs when Lebron himself performed to a dismal level. Yea, the Cavs didnt have HOFers left and right but they werent scrubs either. Lebron just did not perform when his team needed him most. This has been a trend throughout his entire career. Hes not known as a "clutch" player or a guy you would want the ball in his hands in the biggest stage. Its a mental factor with him...some guys have it some guys dont. So far in Lebron's career, he doesnt have the mentality to allow him to take over a game on the biggest stage. Maybe one day he'll get there, but so far he hasnt. So to give him all the credit and none of the blame will just not work.

yes because avg 35 a game in the playoffs is dismal., how many players in the league have this "mental factor..

GiantsSwaGG
07-18-2011, 12:33 AM
If the draft was done today, all 30 teams will pick Lebron James. Stop hating, he should be top 10. BTW, Duncan should be ahead of Kobe and Shaq, he's better.

:facepalm:

tredigs
07-18-2011, 01:23 AM
Im sorry, who was averaging 35 ppg in the playoffs? I must've missed that part.

Then look closer.

35/9/7 on >60% ts%, a PER of 37+ and WS/48 nearing .400 to be exact (Not sure, but probably both All-Time NBA records). But you know, the Cavs were taken out that year. Thus, Lebron totally sux - Choke!

MTar786
07-18-2011, 04:12 AM
Also missing that during the playoffs Duncan's performances during the championship runs elevated to fairly profound levels.

that is missing because kg never got that opportunity to display his championship runs in his prime. so why use that in comparison to duncan? kev got one chance in 04. and i dont know if you remember but in game 7 against the kings he went CRAZY in the 4th. single handedly beat the kings. had like 40 and 22 and 6 assists. somewhere around that. Garnett raised his game to huge levels too. he just didnt get the chance to display as much as timmy. in every category they both could display themselves in kg would best duncan more than duncan could best kg.
obviously timmy should be considered better cuz of his mvp's finals mvps and rings.. but not by much.. because those are the ONLY things that come to mind when making the comparison

MTar786
07-18-2011, 04:15 AM
KG and Duncan are comparable up until the playoffs began.

Tim was INSANE in the playoffs in his prime.
but also kg never got the chance to display himself in the playoffs with an amazing squad like tim duncan did.

Its not like kg didnt raise his game in the playoffs too.
theres just so much one guy can handle when he is the ONLY option and teams throw all their guys at him in the playoffs. tim had parker, ginobli and a hell of a lot of great role players to divert attention to

WorldWideJames
07-18-2011, 07:37 AM
I think Moses was better than Duncan.

bagwell368
07-18-2011, 07:42 AM
Actually KG seems to have more life left in him right now then Duncan. When they retire it's very possible KG will end up with more Win Shares, although Duncan would lead in elite seasons.

Duncan may be better overall, it's close. But before you close it up for consideration, take a look at the defensive win shares and rating of all the players on '07-'08 Celts, and the year before and realize that KG led the way to that monumental shift along with the current coach of the Bulls. He was in early decline going into that year too. In my 45 years as a Celts fan that puts KG up with Bird, McHale, and Russell for single season brilliance. A glued together team with a meh Center, aging #2, end of prime #3, and a deep bench. In less then a year.

bagwell368
07-18-2011, 07:50 AM
I think Moses was better than Duncan.

Because Moses was a lunch pail type player, he never gets credit like he should. He really put the hurt on Kareem too.

The next batch should be pulled from Oscar, KG, Malone, Stockton, Barkley..

Those votes for West make me ill. Great player, not real good on D, #18 - maybe, more like #27, but he looks to be headed to #13 here... eehhhh

NYKalltheway
07-18-2011, 08:27 AM
Because Moses was a lunch pail type player, he never gets credit like he should. He really put the hurt on Kareem too.

The next batch should be pulled from Oscar, KG, Malone, Stockton, Barkley..

Those votes for West make me ill. Great player, not real good on D, #18 - maybe, more like #27, but he looks to be headed to #13 here... eehhhh

would you have Kobe ahead of all of them?

bagwell368
07-18-2011, 08:43 AM
would you have Kobe ahead of all of them?

Kobe today is maybe #11 or #12, or #10 or #9, so pretty much. He could get to #8 or even #7 before he is done. Like I wrote yesterday, offensive studs that play D, and even put on the D after burners on after about age 30 are rare, and he gets a lot of credit for that.

Swashcuff
07-18-2011, 10:37 AM
Umm ya, having a good series doesnt equate to having a good playoffs especially when you give up and fail miserably when it really counts. Is this the argument for Lebron being good during the playoffs? The one or two good series he had? Do you realize the absolutely all time low performances hes put up in the Finals? Do you realize the other disasterous performances hes had during the series hes lost? But youre gonna argue because he had one or two good playoff series during his 8 year career he "probably" holds "All-Time NBA Records?"

You dont get it do you? Numbers dont mean much when they dont translate into wins. Sure hes had a couple of great playoff series. Hes a great player. Nobody is denying that. But at this point in his career, hes not a great playoff performer, hes never been a great playoff performer, hes never been a winner, and hes never been a good closer. Believe me, having a couple of great playoff series will not outweigh the value of having countless poor performances on teh biggest stage.

The only truth I see in this bolded is "sure hes had a couple great playoff series. Hes a great player."

Outside of that not one ounce of truth. His great series by FAR outweigh his not so great. However his worst series both came on the biggest stage.

You guys never cease to amaze me with your arguments.

mightybosstone
07-18-2011, 11:10 AM
Because Moses was a lunch pail type player, he never gets credit like he should. He really put the hurt on Kareem too.

The next batch should be pulled from Oscar, KG, Malone, Stockton, Barkley..

Those votes for West make me ill. Great player, not real good on D, #18 - maybe, more like #27, but he looks to be headed to #13 here... eehhhh

Dude... are you joking? West was named to the first team all-defensive team four times and second team once. West deserves to be in the top 10 discussion and should easily fall in the top 15 range. If it's my list (off the top of my head), after Duncan, I'd probably go 11. Oscar, 12. West, 13. Moses, 14. Barkley, 15. Erving.

Swashcuff
07-18-2011, 11:21 AM
Dude... are you joking? West was named to the first team all-defensive team four times and second team once. West deserves to be in the top 10 discussion and should easily fall in the top 15 range. If it's my list (off the top of my head), after Duncan, I'd probably go 11. Oscar, 12. West, 13. Moses, 14. Barkley, 15. Erving.

Bagwell is usually a quality poster but that statement has me really :confused:

I would love to see his evidence for saying that West wasn't a good defensive player. I've read articles stating that if blocks were recorded in West's days that he would have had many more triple doubles and quite a few quadruple doubles. I really don't get where the no D comes from.

bagwell368
07-18-2011, 11:27 AM
Dude... are you joking? West was named to the first team all-defensive team four times and second team once. West deserves to be in the top 10 discussion and should easily fall in the top 15 range. If it's my list (off the top of my head), after Duncan, I'd probably go 11. Oscar, 12. West, 13. Moses, 14. Barkley, 15. Erving.

Hey dude I watched the guy play, he mailed a lot of games on the D side in. He never seemed to do that with his offensive game.

Also a lot of popular players win accolades they don't deserve - think Derek Jeter in baseball and those GG's - hah!

Hey do what you like doesn't make it right.

He was a great guy, he worked hard to match guys like Oscar. He won a Series MVP when his team lost. But the man is not the myth - and he was meh on D too often.

Da Knicks
07-18-2011, 11:33 AM
Duncan deserved the 8th spot and then Hakeem deserved the 9th....

bagwell368
07-18-2011, 11:40 AM
Bagwell is usually a quality poster but that statement has me really :confused:

I would love to see his evidence for saying that West wasn't a good defensive player. I've read articles stating that if blocks were recorded in West's days that he would have had many more triple doubles and quite a few quadruple doubles. I really don't get where the no D comes from.

I have tapes of him against the Celts in 3 Finals from early in his career to 1966 - his physical prime, and i saw no evidence of a player capable of 10 blocks per game. That was in West's prime. After that I saw him for myself, and he never ever had any 10 blocks or even 6 in a game I saw.

I did a moderately deep search of the web just now, and the highest I've seen him ranked is #8 and the lowest is #16 - with most votes coming in at #12-14. So, I'll defer to #12-14.

He still wasn't a great defender in the regular season. No.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-18-2011, 11:53 AM
How about eventually showing some love for David Robinson? Yes, his numbers took a bit of a dive in the postseason. But regular season, he's top 5 in PER and 2nd in WS/48 (8th overall in total win shares). He also lost 2 years to the Navy.

I'd add him to that batch of players considered at #11, out of Barkley, Moses Malone, Stockton, Oscar, KG and West

bagwell368
07-18-2011, 12:19 PM
How about eventually showing some love for David Robinson? Yes, his numbers took a bit of a dive in the postseason. But regular season, he's top 5 in PER and 2nd in WS/48 (8th overall in total win shares). He also lost 2 years to the Navy.

I'd add him to that batch of players considered at #11, out of Barkley, Moses Malone, Stockton, Oscar, KG and West

I dunno. Tough and talented defender, good guy. But with a face up only offense? He's tough to rate - clearly top 20 is a safe statement, after that...?

todu82
07-18-2011, 12:45 PM
Oscar Robertson

gsgs49
07-18-2011, 01:06 PM
This one is over,let's move to #11.
I'm fine with the top 10 so far,the 10 players who made the list are all in my top 10 but I would change the order a little bit.
The next 8 players should be in no order: Oscar,West,Robinson,Garnett,Barkley,Moses Malone,Karl Malone and Erving.
Then it would be so tough to choose after those 8 players.

alencp3
07-18-2011, 05:44 PM
this thing is going too slow

PatsSoxKnicks
07-18-2011, 06:22 PM
Nominate Neil Johnston (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsne01.html)

Law25
07-18-2011, 06:57 PM
I thought Timmy would get #9 easily, because he has accomplish more than Dream but PSD went with Dream. I'm just glad he made the top ten. I personaly think useless, and flawed advance stats played to heavy in this top ten voting. I think many hold them higher than players accomplishment. Which in my opinion is an mistake.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-18-2011, 07:05 PM
I thought Timmy would get #9 easily, because he has accomplish more than Dream but PSD went with Dream. I'm just glad he made the top ten. I personaly think useless, and flawed advance stats played to heavy in this top ten voting. I think many hold them higher than players accomplishment. Which in my opinion is an mistake.

Which advanced stats are useless and flawed and why?

Also, if many teams in the NBA are using these useless/advanced stats, don't you think they'd have some value?

Hawkeye15
07-18-2011, 07:26 PM
#11 is open. Thanks for voting