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Mile High Champ
07-15-2011, 10:22 AM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

2011 Off Season SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Paul Pierce
5) Andre Iguodala
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)



2010 Off Season SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Paul Pierce
5) Danny Granger
6) Gerald Wallace
7) Andre Iguodala
8) Rudy Gay
9) Luol Deng
10) Ron Artest

2009 Off Season SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Carmelo Anthony
3) Kevin Durant
4) Paul Pierce
5) Danny Granger
6) Andre Iguodala
7) Caron Butler
8) Hedo Turkoglu
9) Ron Artest
10) Stephen Jackson

2008 Off-Season SF rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Paul Pierce
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Caron Butler
5) Ron Artest
6) Shawn Marion
7) Josh Smith
8) Richard Jefferson
9) Lamar Odom
10) Tayshaun Prince

Mile High Champ
07-15-2011, 10:23 AM
lets get voting!

jp611
07-15-2011, 10:44 AM
Dude, you really gotta add gallo

jp611
07-15-2011, 10:46 AM
Let's see how underappreciated Luol is after he loses to granger and gay

Swashcuff
07-15-2011, 10:52 AM
Let's see how underappreciated Luol is after he loses to granger and gay

I could see a case for Granger but not so much Gay. 6-9 IMO should be Granger, Deng, Gay and Wallace. I may be underrating Wallace a tad here but his dip in production last season hurts him a bit in my eyes.

Still doesn't change the fact that Deng continues to be one of the most underrated players in all of basketball.

Jetsguy
07-15-2011, 10:55 AM
granger

sixer04fan
07-15-2011, 10:58 AM
6. Granger > 7. Wallace > 8. Gay > 9. Deng, but 7/8/9 are pretty interchangeable... After the top 9, there is a huge drop to 10.

Mile High Champ
07-15-2011, 10:59 AM
Dude, you really gotta add gallo

Ill be sure to add him to the next poll.

haggis
07-15-2011, 11:02 AM
Still doesn't change the fact that Deng continues to be one of the most underrated players in all of basketball.

Yep.

Crackadalic
07-15-2011, 11:06 AM
Ill be sure to add him to the next poll.

:clap:

My vote goes for Granger

theheatles
07-15-2011, 11:18 AM
granger

bigsams50
07-15-2011, 11:19 AM
Gerald "Crash" Wallace

Da Knicks
07-15-2011, 11:27 AM
Gallo will be in this spot next year...

SteBO
07-15-2011, 11:40 AM
I'm going Luol Deng here. The guy is more efficient and is a big factor in Thibs' defensive schemes. You're almost guaranteed a 15 point, 5-6 rebound game from him. While Granger scores more, he isn't as efficient and he settles alot. I said I'd put Granger at 6 before, but after better examination I have to put Luol here. As Swashcuff said, Deng continues to underrated on this site, while high volume scorers continue to be overrated.

LakersIn5
07-15-2011, 11:43 AM
no way in hell iguodala is better than rudy gay and danny granger

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-15-2011, 11:45 AM
Granger.

THE GIPPER
07-15-2011, 11:45 AM
Gallo will be in this spot next year...

I could see this happening. He may be even higher. He could easily become the #1 scoring option for the nuggets next year.

ManRam
07-15-2011, 11:47 AM
Between Deng and Gay for me. I love Granger, and he did well in the playoffs, but I do have him at 8.

I'm going with Deng. His defense is the absolute difference maker.

EDIT: Forgot about Crash. That makes it tougher. These four are all so close.

Baller1
07-15-2011, 11:48 AM
Gerald Wallace.

mightybosstone
07-15-2011, 11:59 AM
I went with Granger, as I think he is the most dangerous player on this list offensively and I've seen him take over games before, but it was very difficult to take him over Deng. It's extremely close between those two players, for me.

LTBaByyy
07-15-2011, 12:02 PM
Rudy Gay should have went #5!!!!!!

Oh well, have him here

roshan3ai
07-15-2011, 12:03 PM
Damn is crash underrated or what? He's a great rebounder, great defender, slashes very well and does literally everything.

Sadds The Gr8
07-15-2011, 12:06 PM
I think Crash's defense is overrated. solid help defender but i don't think his Man D is as holy as people think it is.

Crackadalic
07-15-2011, 12:08 PM
Even though I voted for Grander, Deng needs to get more votes. I can't be mad if he takes the 6th spot. The most underrated player in the league.

LTBaByyy
07-15-2011, 12:12 PM
Beasley and Gallo should be on the list!!!

They had great years last year

DR_1
07-15-2011, 12:13 PM
Lol @ all the people who think Granger is even in this discussion.

Swashcuff
07-15-2011, 12:17 PM
Lol @ all the people who think Granger is even in this discussion.

Why shouldn't he be?

Eagles4Lyfe
07-15-2011, 12:23 PM
Deng here

NYMetros
07-15-2011, 12:24 PM
Rudy Gay, great scorer, much more efficient than Granger, and rebounds a little better.

Hawkeye15
07-15-2011, 12:25 PM
Deng for me. Easily the best two way SF left on the board. He is a great defender, and has the offensive efficiency to stay with any of the guys left on that side of the court

ManRam
07-15-2011, 12:29 PM
Lol @ all the people who think Granger is even in this discussion.

Did you miss the Pacers/Bulls series?

LTBaByyy
07-15-2011, 12:32 PM
Rudy! Rudy! Rudy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nycericanguy
07-15-2011, 12:41 PM
Granger, 21-24ppg scorer and really took his game to a new level.

Deng & Gay are right there too, but Deng I think benefits greatly from playing alongside Rose and even Boozer. Granger pretty much carries the load offensively.

On a side note, I did not realize Granger is 28 already, he's not that young anymore. For some reason I thought he was still around 24.

And yea if Chandler is on the list, Gallo should def be too, and Beasely.

LTBaByyy
07-15-2011, 12:46 PM
Wright, Chandler, Prince, and Miles over Beasley and Gallo?!?!?!?!?!

Hahahaha wow, this is crazy. Beasley and Gallo played GREAT last year!

Where is the love

SteBO
07-15-2011, 12:47 PM
After this year, how is Gay over Deng in this poll? Gay didn't do hardly enough to make a significant impact for Memphis, though it isn't really fair since he was injured. Deng was huge reason for the success of the Bulls last year. He defends consistently, still efficient, and he rebounds the ball at a good clip. It baffles my mind that volume scorers get so much credit.

Hawkeye15
07-15-2011, 12:52 PM
Wright, Chandler, Prince, and Miles over Beasley and Gallo?!?!?!?!?!

Hahahaha wow, this is crazy. Beasley and Gallo played GREAT last year!

Where is the love

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=F&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

Beasley had 1.7 win shares this season, which didn't even land him on the top 50 forwards list. Gallo has a statistical case for the list, but his defense should, and will keep him out of the top 10. But yeah, how are Miles, Prince, or Wright being considered? Obviously the OP simply needed names to get up on the board, so I wouldn't take it in any other way

ChiTownPacerFan
07-15-2011, 01:00 PM
Granger, 21-24ppg scorer and really took his game to a new level.

Deng & Gay are right there too, but Deng I think benefits greatly from playing alongside Rose and even Boozer. Granger pretty much carries the load offensively.

On a side note, I did not realize Granger is 28 already, he's not that young anymore. For some reason I thought he was still around 24.

And yea if Chandler is on the list, Gallo should def be too, and Beasely.

I'm not sure exactly what level 37-45 is, but I'll tell you this, it's the same level the Pacers have been on for years. Meanwhile, Granger had a down year statistically.

GhostfaceDrilla
07-15-2011, 01:07 PM
Danny Granger. Guy can drop 30 any night.

The Grizzlies making their run made me think that they may be better without Gay.

nycericanguy
07-15-2011, 01:29 PM
I'm not sure exactly what level 37-45 is, but I'll tell you this, it's the same level the Pacers have been on for years. Meanwhile, Granger had a down year statistically.

whoops, meant to say in the playoffs he took his game to a new level.

Hawkeye15
07-15-2011, 01:29 PM
not sure how Granger still gets the nod here. The man hasn't improved a lick in 3 years, and actually had a down year for him. I think he is around the #10 range at this point

THE GIPPER
07-15-2011, 01:32 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=F&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

Beasley had 1.7 win shares this season, which didn't even land him on the top 50 forwards list. Gallo has a statistical case for the list, but his defense should, and will keep him out of the top 10. But yeah, how are Miles, Prince, or Wright being considered? Obviously the OP simply needed names to get up on the board, so I wouldn't take it in any other way

I like advanced stats as much as the next guy but when lamar odom has a higher win shares than amare stoudemire, carmelo anthony, blake griffin, kevin garnett, ray allen and manu ginobili just to name a few, it shows that it only tells half the story. Also, gallinari had a higher ORtg than any other sf in the league (120.1) which also shows how advanced stats can be skewed by which team you play for or the style that they play. I personally would put gallo at #10. His defense is better than his rating shows and that also has alot to do with the teams he played for.

Hawkeye15
07-15-2011, 01:34 PM
I like advanced stats as much as the next guy but when lamar odom has a higher win shares than amare stoudemire, carmelo anthony, blake griffin, kevin garnett, ray allen and manu ginobili just to name a few, it shows that it only tells half the story. Also, gallinari had a higher ORtg than any other sf in the league (120.1) which also shows how advanced stats can be skewed by which team you play for or the style that they play. I personally would put gallo at #10. His defense is better than his rating shows and that also has alot to do with the teams he played for.

oh trust me, I am not saying these the THE way to measure. But when you can't even crack the top 50, you have some esplainin' to do

The offensive rating for Gallo is valid though. He is a very efficient scorer who doesn't turn the ball over. And he isn't a primary ball handler, therefore his ranking will look better with the lower usage.

THE GIPPER
07-15-2011, 01:45 PM
oh trust me, I am not saying these the THE way to measure. But when you can't even crack the top 50, you have some esplainin' to do
The offensive rating for Gallo is valid though. He is a very efficient scorer who doesn't turn the ball over. And he isn't a primary ball handler, therefore his ranking will look better with the lower usage.

Fair enough. In the bolded, were you reffering to gallo's defensive rating or beasley's WS?

KnicksR4Real
07-15-2011, 01:47 PM
honestly. add MOTHER ****ING GALLO!

Hawkeye15
07-15-2011, 02:25 PM
Fair enough. In the bolded, were you reffering to gallo's defensive rating or beasley's WS?

Beasley's win shares. He had a grand total of 1.7. That is so far from elite its not even funny

nycericanguy
07-15-2011, 02:26 PM
not sure how Granger still gets the nod here. The man hasn't improved a lick in 3 years, and actually had a down year for him. I think he is around the #10 range at this point

He has no supporting cast, he was arguably the best player in the CHI-IND series.

I think CHI would be a better team if they had Granger instead of Deng. Heck CHI would probably be better with Gallo than Deng...

THE GIPPER
07-15-2011, 02:36 PM
Beasley's win shares. He had a grand total of 1.7. That is so far from elite its not even funny

Haha so true and you cant even blame this one on the t-wolves being horrible because k-love had a WS of 11.4

bulls_world23
07-15-2011, 02:36 PM
Granger= chucker!!!

Gay was injured

Deng easily. Better defender and more efficient. Oh and played the most minutes

bulls_world23
07-15-2011, 02:38 PM
He has no supporting cast, he was arguably the best player in the CHI-IND series.

I think CHI would be a better team if they had Granger instead of Deng. Heck CHI would probably be better with Gallo than Deng...

:facepalm: I hope your joking

kozelkid
07-15-2011, 02:38 PM
I'll be extremely disappointed if people pick Gay over Granger or Luol.

theheatles
07-15-2011, 02:39 PM
think what the pacers would be with deng instead of granger...pacers would be absolutely fcked with deng because like i've heard all season long from bulls fans that deng can't create his own shot and he's a product of d rose...but granger can create his own shot and him going to the bulls wouldn't be terrible because chicago gets a 2nd option scorer with brewer getting a bigger role as primary perimeter defender.

if the pacers had a pg with playoff experience last yr i think the pacers beat the bulls in the 1st rd

kozelkid
07-15-2011, 02:39 PM
He has no supporting cast, he was arguably the best player in the CHI-IND series.

I think CHI would be a better team if they had Granger instead of Deng. Heck CHI would probably be better with Gallo than Deng...

That's a joke.
Deng was our best defensive player by far and was our clear 2nd option by the 2nd half of the season as Boozer stopped being effective whether it was due to him starting to decline or his "injuries".

Khalifa21
07-15-2011, 02:42 PM
6. Granger > 7. Wallace > 8. Gay > 9. Deng, but 7/8/9 are pretty interchangeable... After the top 9, there is a huge drop to 10.

I'd agree with this ranking...

Granger for me here.

nycericanguy
07-15-2011, 02:45 PM
That's a joke.
Deng was our best defensive player by far and was our clear 2nd option by the 2nd half of the season as Boozer stopped being effective whether it was due to him starting to decline or his "injuries".

His defense is overrated IMO, I mean he allowed Granger to score 22ppg on nearly 50% shooting in the first round.

He's not exactly a guy I worry about stopping my guy when my team plays CHI.

He's a nice all around player, but I wouldn't call him a stopper or anything, nor do I think he's a legit #2 guy on an elite team. Granger on the other hand could be a #2 guy IMO

Swashcuff
07-15-2011, 02:49 PM
IMO this poll just proves to me why I see Rudy Gay as arguably the most overrated player in the NBA.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=575155&highlight=rudy+gay

The fact that 47.5% of the posters who voted on that poll thought that Gay should have been an all star last season ahead of Zach Randolph, Kevin Love, Lamarcus Aldridge or guys of that nature speaks to how much people overrate his worth.

Chacarron
07-15-2011, 02:51 PM
Luol Deng.

SteBO
07-15-2011, 03:00 PM
Granger and Gay are being very overrated here, seriously. I just don't see how it can't be Deng here.

kozelkid
07-15-2011, 03:01 PM
His defense is overrated IMO, I mean he allowed Granger to score 22ppg on nearly 50% shooting in the first round.

He's not exactly a guy I worry about stopping my guy when my team plays CHI.

He's a nice all around player, but I wouldn't call him a stopper or anything, nor do I think he's a legit #2 guy on an elite team. Granger on the other hand could be a #2 guy IMO

No offense, but you say he's overrated on defense as someone who probably didn't see that much of him.

I'll tell you right now, on our defense, he was the catalyst. There's a reason Thibs overplayed him so much and he led our team in minutes. He was basically our KG so to speak.

As for Granger, if you watched him closely in the 2011 playoffs, he made mostly ridiculous shots. Deng guarded him as well as anyone could. Granger did not have many easy shots.

And finally, when grading out a guy like Deng on our defensive philosophy, you can't just say "well player x who played same position did well, therefore Deng didn't play good defense". Deng does a shitload of roaming on our defense as he is supposed to. That's our defensive philosophy. As our best defender, as our KG of the defense, he does a shitload of helping as he needs to.

Now Noah's defense is overrated, I'll give you that. However, there is nothing overrated about Deng's defense. Defensively, as a sf, he's only right below Iggy and Lebron.


IMO this poll just proves to me why I see Rudy Gay as arguably the most overrated player in the NBA.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=575155&highlight=rudy+gay

The fact that 47.5% of the posters who voted on that poll thought that Gay should have been an all star last season ahead of Zach Randolph, Kevin Love, Lamarcus Aldridge or guys of that nature speaks to how much people overrate his worth.

It's because he's athletic and long. :rolleyes:
And has good raw numbers.

sixer04fan
07-15-2011, 03:01 PM
no way in hell iguodala is better than rudy gay and danny granger

PSD would disagree with you

kozelkid
07-15-2011, 03:08 PM
Also, here's a nice site that talked of Iggy's dominance as a defender. My main reason I'm using it cause the author here has access to synergy (unlike me) and posted some tables and values of the top wing defenders. Along with guys like Lebron, Iggy and Tony Allen, you will find Deng at the top as well.
http://www.depressedfan.com/basketball/sixers/iguodalas-victim-list.php

GoPacers33
07-15-2011, 03:24 PM
has to be DG33

sixer04fan
07-15-2011, 03:26 PM
Wow this is ridiculously close!

Ray_R
07-15-2011, 04:24 PM
Deng.

ReggieTimeGOAT
07-15-2011, 04:35 PM
Granger for sure, simply based on the fact that he's the first option on his team while Gay and Deng are second options. Granger may have had a slightly down year (ppg went down) but he was still better than Gay and Deng. People need to stop overrated Gay, the Grizzlies is Randolph's team and he showed it in the playoffs

Kashmir13579
07-15-2011, 04:40 PM
Gerald "JYD" Wallace gets my vote.

LTBaByyy
07-15-2011, 04:42 PM
Too bad there are no Grizzlies fans on PSD lol

Oh well. GO RUDY!!!!!!

NBAfan4life
07-15-2011, 04:49 PM
I voted RUDY as well. He was having a very good season before injury

NYMetros
07-15-2011, 04:51 PM
Granger for sure, simply based on the fact that he's the first option on his team while Gay and Deng are second options. Granger may have had a slightly down year (ppg went down) but he was still better than Gay and Deng. People need to stop overrated Gay, the Grizzlies is Randolph's team and he showed it in the playoffs

That doesn't make Granger better just because he's the first option, it just means he gets to chuck up more shots. IMO it should be Rudy, but I'd rather have Deng win it than Granger.

haggis
07-15-2011, 04:51 PM
Literally can 1 person make a case for why Rudy should be over either Deng or Granger?

Lot of votes for him but no one is stating their case.

kozelkid
07-15-2011, 04:52 PM
Too bad there are no Grizzlies fans on PSD lol

Oh well. GO RUDY!!!!!!

If there were more Grizzlies fans, they'd probably tell you how frustrating of a player Rudy Gay is: the talent of a top tier player and the basketball IQ of a rock.

j11430
07-15-2011, 04:53 PM
I put Granger, just by a little bit over Deng

Swashcuff
07-15-2011, 04:58 PM
Literally can 1 person make a case for why Rudy should be over either Deng or Granger?

Lot of votes for him but no one is stating their case.

I'm still waiting for someone to make their case.

CHANGO
07-15-2011, 05:01 PM
I'm changing my opinion lol...

6 - Granger
7 - Deng
8 - Rudy
9 - Wallace
10 - Marion - Gallo

Master Mind
07-15-2011, 05:06 PM
no way in hell iguodala is better than rudy gay and danny granger

This.

haggis
07-15-2011, 05:25 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to make their case.

Seriously.

I would love to see someone try to debate this.

Kashmir13579
07-15-2011, 05:34 PM
I'm surprised at the lack of respect that Wallace is getting. So nobody values defense and rebounding anymore? And its not like he's handicapped when it comes to scoring either. his offensive numbers are right on par with Gay and Granger. Actually, his Portland numbers destroy Gay and Granger. Deng being more efficient than all 3 of them but playing to a lesser role, imo.

Kashmir13579
07-15-2011, 05:36 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to make their case.

I'm not gonna do it because i don't feel like it, and i personally think Deng and Granger are better. But its not like an argument couldn't be made. These kids are just lazy.

kozelkid
07-15-2011, 05:36 PM
I'm surprised at the lack of respect that Wallace is getting. So nobody values defense and rebounding anymore? And its not like he's handicapped when it comes to scoring either. his offensive numbers are right on par with Gay and Granger. Actually, his Portland numbers destroy Gay and Granger. Deng being more efficient than all 3 of them but playing to a lesser role, imo.

Wallace has a case, but he played A LOT worse this past season. Deng is also a better defender than Wallace.

Kashmir13579
07-15-2011, 05:42 PM
Wallace has a case, but he played A LOT worse this past season. Deng is also a better defender than Wallace.

like i said, he was having a tough time in CHA because they flat out sucked. When he got traded he was back to his old ways and then some. And i strongly disagree that Deng is a better defender. He may play on a better defensive team, that doesn't mean he's a better defender. Wallace's MO is that of being one of the best defensive wings in the game.

haggis
07-15-2011, 05:43 PM
I'm not gonna do it because i don't feel like it, and i personally think Deng and Granger are better. But its not like an argument couldn't be made. These kids are just lazy.

I agree that an argument could be made, but ABPR metrics heavily favor Granger, Deng, and Wallace in front of Gay.

haggis
07-15-2011, 05:55 PM
And i strongly disagree that Deng is a better defender. He may play on a better defensive team, that doesn't mean he's a better defender. Wallace's MO is that of being one of the best defensive wings in the game.

Take a look at the article that Kozel posted earlier in the thread, scroll towards the bottom for some defensive ratings.

http://www.depressedfan.com/basketball/sixers/iguodalas-victim-list.php

Unless you have access to Synergy, and if you do please share...

ReggieTimeGOAT
07-15-2011, 05:55 PM
That doesn't make Granger better just because he's the first option, it just means he gets to chuck up more shots. IMO it should be Rudy, but I'd rather have Deng win it than Granger.

Yes it does prove a lot. Basically means that Granger lead his team to the playoffs while Deng and Gay didn't. I dont see a strong argument for why Gay should be ranked ahead of Granger. The Grizzlies played better without Gay. As for Deng, he's solid but not better than Granger. Deng is getting the votes because the Bulls had the best record in the league but he played in Rose's shadow.

Swashcuff
07-15-2011, 06:02 PM
I'm going to give my case for Granger here.

Statistical +/-

Player G Min OSPM DSPM SPM
Danny Granger 79 2763 2.59 0.04 2.63
Gerald Wallace 71 2693 0.21 2.33 2.53
Rudy Gay 54 2152 1.44 0.91 2.35
Luol Deng 82 3208 1.14 0.55 1.60

Granger ranks #1 of all the guys left on the list in terms of SPM and OSPM. It just goes to so his offensive value to his team when he's on the floor and why he impacts his team offense more than Gay, Deng or Wallace.

eWins and eWin/484

Player tm Min Eff% eWins e484
Luol Deng Chi 39 .540 8.5 1.28
Danny Granger Ind 35 .544 8.4 1.47

As I said in the thread before because Gay and Wallace were not ranked in the top 10 among the league leaders in eWins I was not able to access their data. While eWins are good the only reason Deng ended with more than Granger was because of the fact that he played in 3 less games than Luol.

Advanced

Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
Luol Deng 2010-11 25 82 3208 15.5 .549 .510 4.4 12.8 8.7 11.9 1.3 1.1 10.7 20.9 111 102 4.7 5.2 9.9 0.149
Rudy Gay 2010-11 24 54 2152 17.8 .548 .503 4.5 14.2 9.3 11.6 2.2 2.2 12.2 23.3 108 105 2.7 2.8 5.5 0.123
Danny Granger 2010-11 27 79 2763 17.8 .554 .487 3.5 13.5 8.5 13.0 1.6 1.6 12.3 26.7 107 106 3.7 3.2 6.9 0.120
G Wallace 2010-11 28 71 2693 16.2 .548 .490 4.9 21.0 12.8 10.9 2.1 1.9 13.0 20.3 107 105 2.6 3.6 6.2 0.111

Granger finished with the best TS% of the bunch though in terms of WS/48 he isn't up there with Deng and slightly behind Rudy (fact that the Grizz ORtg and DRtg are better than the Pacers has a role to play in this). In terms of PER well that's an obvious wash in terms of Gay and Granger with Deng being last among the 4.

As far as overall offensive production relative to team offense I'll use a stat that I used to support my case for Iggy. I shall now use it in support of Granger being the more complete and important offensive player I'll just compare Granger and Deng since I don't think anyone really thinks Deng or Wallace does more for their team offensively than Gay and Granger.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18550950&postcount=143

Pts + Assists

Player Pts+Ast %Team Pts
Danny Granger 26.2 26.5%
Rudy Gay 26.0 26.0%

Essentially they both bring the same amount of overall offense to their respective teams since the difference is marginal. Obviously this isn't accurate however I used their respective team's PPG overall and Rudy did miss 28 games and Granger 3 so their team PPG average were been different.

I really don't have the time to do the research to see how much the Grizz averaged when he was in the line-up. However the Grizzlies did after all average less points per game when Gay went down so I am actually being generous by judging him based on his team's overall PPG at season's end.

Swashcuff
07-15-2011, 06:07 PM
Take a look at the article that Kozel posted earlier in the thread, scroll towards the bottom for some defensive ratings.

http://www.depressedfan.com/basketball/sixers/iguodalas-victim-list.php

Unless you have access to Synergy, and if you do please share...

I agree. Last season at least Luol was a better/more valuable defender than Gerald. Gerald's PPP #s are a tad bit off because of the fact that he played mostly PF in Portland. He was really asked to guard a lot of players who were bigger than he was. IMO Deng was Chicago's best defensive player last season and better individual defender than Wallace. Wallace however is a really underrated help defensive player.

Kashmir13579
07-15-2011, 06:08 PM
Take a look at the article that Kozel posted earlier in the thread, scroll towards the bottom for some defensive ratings.

http://www.depressedfan.com/basketball/sixers/iguodalas-victim-list.php

Unless you have access to Synergy, and if you do please share...

I'm guessing everyone on the Bulls starting line-up is top 5 for their position in defensive rating.

Kashmir13579
07-15-2011, 06:10 PM
Help defense and the Chicago Bulls. They are truly an amazing defensive team.

haggis
07-15-2011, 06:11 PM
I agree. Last season at least Luol was a better/more valuable defender than Gerald. Gerald's PPP #s are a tad bit off because of the fact that he played mostly PF in Portland. He was really asked to guard a lot of players who were bigger than he was. IMO Deng was Chicago's best defensive player last season and better individual defender than Wallace. Wallace however is a really underrated help defensive player.

I can agree with that. Deng isn't very overtly athletic (he's not the type of "WOW-you" player), and Wallace has the edge in that aspect over Deng.

I just feel that at this point in their careers, Wallace is seeing the last stages of being able to get by on athleticism on D.

kozelkid
07-15-2011, 06:14 PM
I'm guessing everyone on the Bulls starting line-up is top 5 for their position in defensive rating.

Nope.

Synergy stats specifically isolates each player to make sure it's just one player's individual effect on his opposition.

Boozer, Noah, Bogans are all unlikely to be that high. Well actually Noah might be, but that's only because the center position isn't exactly very deep these days.

haggis
07-15-2011, 06:14 PM
I'm guessing everyone on the Bulls starting line-up is top 5 for their position in defensive rating.


Help defense and the Chicago Bulls. They are truly an amazing defensive team.

Actually look at the article. The PPP is the key, independent of Team Play... I don't have access to Synergy, but that's the best I can do for you.

Swashcuff
07-15-2011, 06:15 PM
I'm guessing everyone on the Bulls starting line-up is top 5 for their position in defensive rating.

:laugh2: I think you'd be guessing right.

However PPP allowed is dissimilar from DRtg. It's a MUCH better metric to accurately ascertain a player's defensive worth.

GoPacers33
07-15-2011, 06:20 PM
Danny danny danny

Kashmir13579
07-15-2011, 06:26 PM
I agree that an argument could be made, but ABPR metrics heavily favor Granger, Deng, and Wallace in front of Gay.

How did you come to this conclusion? Are you just assuming it to be the case?
Actually, Deng is the only one out of the 4 that APBR metrics favors over Gay and it isn't even "heavily". In fact, Gay has a better PER, Rebounds slightly better, and is comparable if we're going by the highly skewed defensive stats. Now that i'm looking at this even closer, i see that Gay is only slightly behind Deng in eFG% and matches his TS%. so i really don't know what you're talking about. Like i said earlier, a case could easily be made for Gay, but this is as far as i'm willing to go.

Take a look.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=denglu01&y1=2011&p2=gayru01&y2=2011&p3=grangda01&y3=2011&p4=wallage01&y4=2011

EDIT: Also, Deng doesn't get to the line as frequently or shoot FTs at the % that Gay and Granger do. Only by a small margin, but its still noteworthy.

Kashmir13579
07-15-2011, 06:29 PM
:laugh2: I think you'd be guessing right.

However PPP allowed is dissimilar from DRtg. It's a MUCH better metric to accurately ascertain a player's defensive worth.

LOL. yea i wasn't really going out on a limb with that one.

So PPP can effectively isolate individual defense from help defenders? i kind of find that hard to believe but i'm not saying it isn't so. i'm not familiar with ppp.

D-Leethal
07-15-2011, 06:32 PM
Granger is the best player on a playoff team. My vote goes for him......

Hawkeye15
07-15-2011, 06:42 PM
He has no supporting cast, he was arguably the best player in the CHI-IND series.

I think CHI would be a better team if they had Granger instead of Deng. Heck CHI would probably be better with Gallo than Deng...

so you are using 5 games over 82?

Granger is exactly what he is. Above average efficiency scorer. Chicago's success was from their defense, with Deng being a HUGE part of that. Granger couldn't replace that aspect and the additional 2-4 ppg doesn't matter.

ChiSox219
07-15-2011, 06:51 PM
Unless you have access to Synergy, and if you do please share...

Deng is equal or better than Wallace (CHA) in every category.

Compared to Wallace (POR) Deng trails in Post Up defense (makes sense if you are familiar with a fellow named Marcus Camby). That said, the sample size is small, 39 plays (16.6% of his total defensive plays with Portland).

For whatever reason, Wallace was atrocious in insolation defense plays with Portland, giving up 1.06 PPP on 51.1 FG%


LOL. yea i wasn't really going out on a limb with that one.

So PPP can effectively isolate individual defense from help defenders? i kind of find that hard to believe but i'm not saying it isn't so. i'm not familiar with ppp.

Synergy tracks the initial on ball defender for many playtypes. For example, an offensive player is in Isolation and blows by his defender (player A) and gets to the rim. A help defender (player B) rotates over to try and contest the shot. We attribute the defensive play to Player A, as he was the person was initially beaten on the play.

Also, every "play" from the season and playoffs is logged and able to be viewed.

ChiSox219
07-15-2011, 06:55 PM
Deng also shows very well in Adjusted +/-, Wallace is up there as well. Granger is above average but not top 50.

http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.php?mode=summary&sortnumber=92&sortorder=DESC&year=2010-2011

Kashmir13579
07-15-2011, 06:57 PM
Deng is equal or better than Wallace (CHA) in every category.

Compared to Wallace (POR) Deng trails in Post Up defense (makes sense if you are familiar with a fellow named Marcus Camby). That said, the sample size is small, 39 plays (16.6% of his total defensive plays with Portland).

For whatever reason, Wallace was atrocious in insolation defense plays with Portland, giving up 1.06 PPP on 51.1 FG%



Synergy tracks the initial on ball defender for many playtypes. For example, an offensive player is in Isolation and blows by his defender (player A) and gets to the rim. A help defender (player B) rotates over to try and contest the shot. We attribute the defensive play to Player A, as he was the person was initially beaten on the play.

Also, every "play" from the season and playoffs is logged and able to be viewed.

Thanks, dude. I didn't know that. But you gotta think Noah would be able to curve Deng's post-up defense?

Gators123
07-15-2011, 06:59 PM
BTW, I don't know if you guys know about this, but its pretty cool (and free)

http://mysynergysports.com/

Ebbs
07-15-2011, 07:00 PM
I will be super sad if Gerald Wallace falls behind Deng.

Avenged
07-15-2011, 07:05 PM
Iggy?? Hmm

Deng again.

Kashmir13579
07-15-2011, 07:05 PM
I will be super sad if Gerald Wallace falls behind Deng.

He's an under-appreciated player for sure.

ChiSox219
07-15-2011, 07:07 PM
Yes it does prove a lot. Basically means that Granger lead his team to the playoffs while Deng and Gay didn't. I dont see a strong argument for why Gay should be ranked ahead of Granger. The Grizzlies played better without Gay. As for Deng, he's solid but not better than Granger. Deng is getting the votes because the Bulls had the best record in the league but he played in Rose's shadow.

Granger led his team to 37 wins, 8 games below .500

You may not remember the '07 playoffs (the last time Deng was healthy prior to this year) but Deng went for 22.2/8.7 on 52.4% from the field against the #7 and #8 rated defenses. Obviously Deng defers to Rose now so he's not going to get Granger's offensive numbers but even then, the gap in their defensive play gives Deng an overall advantage.

Cubby
07-15-2011, 07:09 PM
And Luol Deng's journey to being the most underrated basketball played in the NBA continues...

ChiSox219
07-15-2011, 07:15 PM
Thanks, dude. I didn't know that. But you gotta think Noah would be able to curve Deng's post-up defense?

Meh, I don't think Noah is a great help defender, I'd even put Tyrus Thomas above him in that regard. Also, Noah missed over 30 games this year so you have to figure over 40% of Deng's defense plays could not have possibly come with Noah on the court.

Just for the record, I think it's very close between Crash and Deng, I remember comparing all the SFs last year because so many Bulls fans wanted Deng gone, and Wallace was one of the few not making max money I had rated above Deng.

Gators123
07-15-2011, 07:24 PM
After looking at the synergy numbers, I think Prince was underrated last year.

Kashmir13579
07-15-2011, 07:34 PM
Meh, I don't think Noah is a great help defender, I'd even put Tyrus Thomas above him in that regard. Also, Noah missed over 30 games this year so you have to figure over 40% of Deng's defense plays could not have possibly come with Noah on the court.

Just for the record, I think it's very close between Crash and Deng, I remember comparing all the SFs last year because so many Bulls fans wanted Deng gone, and Wallace was one of the few not making max money I had rated above Deng.
Good stuff, man. thanks for all this helpful insight.

coryd238
07-15-2011, 07:44 PM
No Gallo yet? Wtf is this...

coryd238
07-15-2011, 07:58 PM
Oh, and I wonder how people ranked players back in the day... I mean advanced statistics are the only "right" way apparently...

Gators123
07-15-2011, 08:01 PM
No Gallo yet? Wtf is this...

Do you think hes a top 7 SF?

coryd238
07-15-2011, 08:11 PM
Do you think hes a top 7 SF?

No, he's a top 10 though. And we've been asking the OP to put him on for the last 4 threads.

Kashmir13579
07-15-2011, 08:28 PM
No, he's a top 10 though. And we've been asking the OP to put him on for the last 4 threads.

Its gonna be hard to fit him in to the top 10, looking at the players left i'm not sure i even have an argument for Gallo. It doesn't change the fact he should've been on this poll a while ago and that the OP has been ignoring the request from many posters.

Slimsim
07-15-2011, 08:48 PM
No Gallo yet? Wtf is this...

Yea For some reason people treat him like a scrub

LTBaByyy
07-15-2011, 09:08 PM
I wish we had Gallo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even though Marion is still a top 10 SF in this league (#10)

I would love to have Gallo in a Mavs uniform with Rudy out there

Gators123
07-15-2011, 09:39 PM
I wish we had Gallo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even though Marion is still a top 10 SF in this league (#10)

I would love to have Gallo in a Mavs uniform with Rudy out there

Debatable.

coryd238
07-15-2011, 09:47 PM
Its gonna be hard to fit him in to the top 10, looking at the players left i'm not sure i even have an argument for Gallo. It doesn't change the fact he should've been on this poll a while ago and that the OP has been ignoring the request from many posters.

If he was more consistent he'd be top ten. Right now it's arguable.

Swashcuff
07-15-2011, 10:09 PM
Oh, and I wonder how people ranked players back in the day... I mean advanced statistics are the only "right" way apparently...

I'm doing the research now but advanced stats have been around from the very beginning. Just not the ones we are using right now. I've seen many old articles from the 60s using different advanced metrics. They've been around for quite some time.

TO Rapz
07-15-2011, 10:15 PM
Deng easily. Dude's so underrated its not even funny. He puts the ball in the hoop very efficiently, plays good D, and rebounds well, all while playing a hardnosed tough game. One of my favourite players in the league.

SportsFanatic10
07-15-2011, 10:32 PM
danny g

cmellofan15
07-15-2011, 10:50 PM
Do you think hes a top 7 SF?

Dorell Wright
Wilson Chandler
Tayshaun Prince
Grant Hill
CJ Miles

are they top 7 small forwards?

ReggieTimeGOAT
07-15-2011, 11:06 PM
Granger led his team to 37 wins, 8 games below .500

You may not remember the '07 playoffs (the last time Deng was healthy prior to this year) but Deng went for 22.2/8.7 on 52.4% from the field against the #7 and #8 rated defenses. Obviously Deng defers to Rose now so he's not going to get Granger's offensive numbers but even then, the gap in their defensive play gives Deng an overall advantage.

Im well aware of Granger leading the Pacers to 37 wins (dont know why you bring it up as a fact?). He doesn't have that great of a supporting cast but making the playoffs was big.
Yes I agree that Deng was better before Rose but what does that have to do with who is better right now. And Deng isn't really underrated like people claim, people understand what he does for the Bulls, he's a decent player but not on an allstar level like Granger (or at least when Granger was an allstar). Deng's defence is also a little overrated, his advance stats are flawed a little because the Bulls had the best defence.

Swashcuff
07-15-2011, 11:09 PM
Im well aware of Granger leading the Pacers to 37 wins (dont know why you bring it up as a fact?). He doesn't have that great of a supporting cast but making the playoffs was big.
Yes I agree that Deng was better before Rose but what does that have to do with who is better right now. And Deng isn't really underrated like people claim, people understand what he does for the Bulls, he's a decent player but not on an allstar level like Granger (or at least when Granger was an allstar). Deng's defence is also a little overrated, his advance stats are flawed a little because the Bulls had the best defence.

1. Deng is NOT overrated
2. Do you have any facts to Deng's defense being flawed?

Remember I was one of the few in this thread who actually made a solid case for Granger over Deng but I don't subscribe to this kind of thinking.

ChiTownPacerFan
07-15-2011, 11:10 PM
Im well aware of Granger leading the Pacers to 37 wins (dont know why you bring it up as a fact?). He doesn't have that great of a supporting cast but making the playoffs was big.
Yes I agree that Deng was better before Rose but what does that have to do with who is better right now. And Deng isn't really underrated like people claim, people understand what he does for the Bulls, he's a decent player but not on an allstar level like Granger (or at least when Granger was an allstar). Deng's defence is also a little overrated, his advance stats are flawed a little because the Bulls had the best defence.

What? Deng is a very good defender. Meanwhile, Granger's defense has been quite suspect for years.

ReggieTimeGOAT
07-15-2011, 11:14 PM
1. Deng is NOT overrated
2. Do you have any facts to Deng's defense being flawed?

Remember I was one of the few in this thread who actually made a solid case for Granger over Deng but I don't subscribe to this kind of thinking.

I said his defence is overrated because of the way the Bulls play. The Bulls are a good defence oriented team and it causes his advanced defensive stats to inflate a little. He isn't as good of a man to man defender like people claim. He's a good defender but not an elite one, and he wasn't snubbed on the all-defence first or second team like some claim *cough*

Swashcuff
07-15-2011, 11:23 PM
I said his defence is overrated because of the way the Bulls play. The Bulls are a good defence oriented team and it causes his advanced defensive stats to inflate a little. He isn't as good of a man to man defender like people claim. He's a good defender but not an elite one, and he wasn't snubbed on the all-defence first or second team like some claim *cough*

I don't see any facts here.

The Bulls don't inflate Deng's D (if that were the case he wouldn't have been so low on his team in terms of DRtg) Deng IMPROVES the Bulls D leaps and bounds. He was indeed their most valuable defensive player.

Tell me who was more responsibly for their great D last season.

Please give us some facts and not just your opinion.

ChiSox219
07-15-2011, 11:44 PM
Im well aware of Granger leading the Pacers to 37 wins (dont know why you bring it up as a fact?). He doesn't have that great of a supporting cast but making the playoffs was big.
Yes I agree that Deng was better before Rose but what does that have to do with who is better right now. And Deng isn't really underrated like people claim, people understand what he does for the Bulls, he's a decent player but not on an allstar level like Granger (or at least when Granger was an allstar). Deng's defence is also a little overrated, his advance stats are flawed a little because the Bulls had the best defence.

You used the Pacers making the playoffs as point favoring Granger because he was the lead dog. My point is, the Pacers only won 37 games, that was good for 20th in the NBA.

Granger used fewer possessions than in his more successful previous seasons while playing the fewest MPG since his Sophomore year. Deng was 3rd in the league in total minutes, impressive considering how efficient he was and how hard he worked on defense.

Also, I don't understand why you downplay the Pacers roster. I watched enough of their games the past two years to know they are more talented than their record would indicate. O'brien was a big problem and as soon as he was gone, we all witnessed the team's improvement once Vogel took over. At the beginning of the year I picked the Pacers to make the playoffs but I thought they'd win at least 41.

Chris Kaman was an all-star, so be careful using that as a standalone point.

I hate to downplay or talk bad about Granger, I like his game and I like watching the Pacers. I think Granger is a better offensive player and I would want the ball in his hands over Deng if I needed to create a basket. Granger deserves credit for posting the efficient numbers he does at such a high usage. That said, Deng has a much significant advantage defensively than Granger does offensively. I don't need any stats to tell me this, all you need to do is watch, the gap is evident.

The Bulls defensive stats are flawed/inflated because they had Deng ;)

ReggieTimeGOAT
07-16-2011, 01:25 AM
You used the Pacers making the playoffs as point favoring Granger because he was the lead dog. My point is, the Pacers only won 37 games, that was good for 20th in the NBA.

Granger used fewer possessions than in his more successful previous seasons while playing the fewest MPG since his Sophomore year. Deng was 3rd in the league in total minutes, impressive considering how efficient he was and how hard he worked on defense.

Also, I don't understand why you downplay the Pacers roster. I watched enough of their games the past two years to know they are more talented than their record would indicate. O'brien was a big problem and as soon as he was gone, we all witnessed the team's improvement once Vogel took over. At the beginning of the year I picked the Pacers to make the playoffs but I thought they'd win at least 41.

Chris Kaman was an all-star, so be careful using that as a standalone point.

I hate to downplay or talk bad about Granger, I like his game and I like watching the Pacers. I think Granger is a better offensive player and I would want the ball in his hands over Deng if I needed to create a basket. Granger deserves credit for posting the efficient numbers he does at such a high usage. That said, Deng has a much significant advantage defensively than Granger does offensively. I don't need any stats to tell me this, all you need to do is watch, the gap is evident.

The Bulls defensive stats are flawed/inflated because they had Deng ;)

I dont see how this proves Deng being any better or more efficient than Granger. And how Deng gave more effort of defence because he was among the leaders in mins. Looking at their stats, Granger is more efficient than Deng in around the same amount of mins (PER 36). Also, if Granger were to play about 39 mins, his productivity would also increase and it would be superior to Deng's.

As for the Pacers, they have decent players but many of them are very inconsistent. They'll improve this coming season though and the Pacers should get slightly better. Deng's defence is good but he plays in a good defensive system which can be misleading sometimes- statwise, and his Coach improves his defence for him. And Granger isn't as bad of a defender that you claim, he's an average defender and he'll only get better.

beermugs
07-16-2011, 02:47 AM
rudy gay was a beast this season befor he got hurt yall need to accept that he got hurt and waqs still beta then granger and deng but again he got hurt he is a real good player not worth his contract but a real good player

beermugs
07-16-2011, 02:48 AM
plus im drunk and have not been on for a min so my fav ofcourse is melooo lol

jp611
07-16-2011, 11:28 AM
Dengs defense overrated :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Pierzynski4Prez
07-16-2011, 11:43 AM
Can't believe Deng is this close to Granger. Lots of bulls homers I guess, he should be 7-8. I know if Indy offered Granger for Deng straight up I wouldn't hesitate for 1 second on pulling the trigger.

jp611
07-16-2011, 12:03 PM
That's cuz your knowledge is suspect at best, I wouldn't trade Deng for Granger 10 times out of 10, his defense is way too valuable to the bulls and trading him for a defensive liability who is a volume shooter would make the bulls a worse team

Swashcuff
07-16-2011, 12:08 PM
That's cuz your knowledge is suspect at best, I wouldn't trade Deng for Granger 10 times out of 10, his defense is way too valuable to the bulls and trading him for a defensive liability who is a volume shooter would make the bulls a worse team

Granger isn't a liability on D. He is no where near as good as Deng but he can surely hold his own on that end of the floor. No doubt though that the Bulls would be better defensively with Deng but with Granger it can be argued that they'd be more potent offensively.

jp611
07-16-2011, 12:12 PM
Luols D is lightyears ahead of Grangers, Granger may be a better player but I'm just saying that Deng fits the bulls much better than Granger does, and some Bulls fans don't understand Dengs impact on this team

Swashcuff
07-16-2011, 12:20 PM
Luols D is lightyears ahead of Grangers, Granger may be a better player but I'm just saying that Deng fits the bulls much better than Granger does, and some Bulls fans don't understand Dengs impact on this team

I fully agree. It's the same with some 76ers fans and Iguodala. I think as fans of the team they expect so much out of the player that they don't even acknowledge how valuable he really is. I mean I know of some Philly fans who hold the fact that Iggy is not a #1 option against him and think he's no good because of it. Thing is Iggy is NOT a #1 and never wanted/claimed to be, he inherited it since he was our best player and the organization deemed him our "franchise player".

I see the same with many Bulls fans they think Deng should be an occasional All Star and that fact that he isn't they view his flaws more than his bright spots. It's honestly unfair to quality players to be judged on their fan bases' expectations and not much else.

ChiSox219
07-16-2011, 12:25 PM
I dont see how this proves Deng being any better or more efficient than Granger. And how Deng gave more effort of defence because he was among the leaders in mins. Looking at their stats, Granger is more efficient than Deng in around the same amount of mins (PER 36). Also, if Granger were to play about 39 mins, his productivity would also increase and it would be superior to Deng's.

As for the Pacers, they have decent players but many of them are very inconsistent. They'll improve this coming season though and the Pacers should get slightly better. Deng's defence is good but he plays in a good defensive system which can be misleading sometimes- statwise, and his Coach improves his defence for him. And Granger isn't as bad of a defender that you claim, he's an average defender and he'll only get better.

Efficiency and minutes played have a negative correlation, so if Granger were to play the kind of minutes Deng did, it is likely Granger's efficiency would drop. Deng expands more energy on defense which will affect his offensive efficiency, if Granger gave that kind of effort, watch his offensive numbers suffer barring a reduction in minutes. Of course Granger's raw averages would go up but that has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

You mention Granger being more efficient but it's by a slight margin (.554 to .549) and Deng is much more efficient from the field (.510 eFG to .487). Again, I already conceded that Granger is the better offensive player so I don't know why you think I am trying to say otherwise.

Deng has played under several coaches during his time in the league, he's always been an excellent defender and he makes the Bulls overall defense better. You keep saying that it's all his teammates and the coaching system, that is complete BS, get off that argument. I want to know what stats you are talking about that are inflated by playing for the Bulls, no one here is talking about defensive rating.

I don't disagree that Granger is around average as a defender but that still leaves a large gap between he and Deng, a gap that is much larger than the one that separates the two players offensively. Defense is every bit as important as offense.

KnicksR4Real
07-16-2011, 12:37 PM
add gallo you ****

Hawkeye15
07-16-2011, 01:41 PM
#7 is up. Thanks for voting