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JordansBulls
07-14-2011, 06:28 PM
Voting for #8 has concluded and PSD's Official #8 Player of all time is....

Kobe Bryant


25.3 PPG | 5.3 RPG | 4.7 AST | .45.4% FG | 23.5 PER


Achievements:

12 time All-Star
5 NBA Championships
1 Time MVP
2 Time Finals MVP
4 Time AllStar Game MVP
9 Time All-NBA First Teamer
9 Time All Defensive First Teamer
Led the League in Scoring 2 Times


Kobe Bryant = 102 votes
Tim Duncan = 65 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 59 votes
Oscar Robertson = 19 votes
Jerry West = 7 votes
Patrick Ewing = 5 votes
Lebron James = 4 votes
Isiah Thomas = 2 votes
Charles Barkley = 2 votes
Dirk Nowitzki = 2 votes
Karl Malone = 1 vote
Julius Erving = 1 vote
John Stockton = 1 vote
Elgin Baylor = 1 vote
Bob Cousy = 1 vote
Dwyane Wade = 1 vote
Moses Malone = 1 vote



The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)
5. Bill Russell (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632852)
6. Larry Bird (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633428)
7. Shaquille O'neal (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633751)
8. Kobe Bryant (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634022)





NOTE:

Need you guys to start nominating so that we can do a top 25 or even top 50.

Requirement for nomination is: Player had to be an allstar at least 3+ times as a minimum or have won League MVP or an allstar 2+ times with finals MVP.
Doing it this way gets rid of posters who would put guys like Cedric Maxwell who although he has a finals mvp never was an allstar.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 06:31 PM
Timmy followed by The Dream for me.

NYKalltheway
07-14-2011, 06:31 PM
Hakeem for #8 of all time :p

Venomous88
07-14-2011, 06:35 PM
Fitting Kobe got number 8. Where is the poll?

mightybosstone
07-14-2011, 06:38 PM
I'm voting Dream, obviously.

If we're nominating, I nominate Steve Nash. He certainly belongs in the top 25, top 50 discussion, and I did not see him on the last poll.

210Don
07-14-2011, 06:41 PM
if timmy doesnt get this one im gunna shoot myself:mad:

Hawkeye15
07-14-2011, 06:42 PM
toss up between the Dream and Timmy. I went Dream

SteBO
07-14-2011, 06:43 PM
Hakeem the Dream imho.

mightybosstone
07-14-2011, 06:44 PM
I think this is going to be extremely close between Duncan and Dream. Also, I thought I saw someone nominate Scottie Pippen, but I didn't notice his name in the poll and I now nominate Scottie Pippen. And while I'm at it, I nominate Jason Kidd.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 06:46 PM
I think this is going to be extremely close between Duncan and Dream. Also, I thought I saw someone nominate Scottie Pippen, but I didn't notice his name in the poll and I now nominate Scottie Pippen. And while I'm at it, I nominate Jason Kidd.

As it should be.

DR_1
07-14-2011, 06:47 PM
Dream

cmellofan15
07-14-2011, 06:49 PM
Once again, Hakeem.

JustBringIt
07-14-2011, 06:49 PM
Timmy

NBAfan4life
07-14-2011, 06:54 PM
I'm thinking Dream here

Venomous88
07-14-2011, 06:55 PM
Jason Kidd should have already been nominated before Nash

Lake_Show2416
07-14-2011, 06:56 PM
Hakeem followed by the Big O who gets no love

GREATNESS ONE
07-14-2011, 07:01 PM
This one is so close for me, I appreciate what the Dream did but I'll give the slight edge to Duncan for the doubling the rings.

Also I want to Nominate James Worthy

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-14-2011, 07:03 PM
Hakeem again.

Khalifa21
07-14-2011, 07:04 PM
Timmy followed by The Dream for me.

This.

Also :facepalm: for Kobe going ahead of both Timmy and Hakeem...

cmellofan15
07-14-2011, 07:05 PM
Hakeem followed by the Big O who gets no love

because he is vastly overrated.

210Don
07-14-2011, 07:10 PM
wow timmy is getting blown out....
:(

Ovratd1up
07-14-2011, 07:10 PM
If I had to say I'd say Allen "The Answer" Iverson here for sure

NYKalltheway
07-14-2011, 07:10 PM
is this gonna be a landslide? wow didn't expect 21-9!

Sadds The Gr8
07-14-2011, 07:11 PM
The Big Fundamental

Chacarron
07-14-2011, 07:26 PM
I changed my mind after reading some of the arguments for Hakeem in the last thread, so I voted for The Dream.

Nominate Big Game James Worthy.

KingPosey
07-14-2011, 07:27 PM
The most overlooked player of his time, and the guy Jordan called the toughest guy he ever had to face, I nominate mitch richmond.

theheatles
07-14-2011, 07:34 PM
it looks like the oscar robertson voters said fck it and voted for hakeem so their votes wouldnt go to waste here

Cano4prez
07-14-2011, 07:35 PM
The most overlooked player of his time, and the guy Jordan called the toughest guy he ever had to face, I nominate mitch richmond.

Doesn't even belong in the top 25..

cmellofan15
07-14-2011, 07:38 PM
nominate Wes Unseld, great rebounder and defender as well as an efficient scorer. Won MVP his rookie year and Finals MVP.

MTar786
07-14-2011, 07:42 PM
The most overlooked player of his time, and the guy Jordan called the toughest guy he ever had to face, I nominate mitch richmond.

thats just to show how terrible the shooting guards were compared to now in the jordan era.

the best sg's in the 90's (mj not included) were
reggie
mitch
and penny
old clyde

thats like ray allen
a better version of kevin martin
vince carter
and 2006 tmac


Anyway.. Dream to me EASILY should take this. the only argument i can come up with for duncan was his 4 rings and the mvp's he got that truly belonged to shaq

nominate: jason kidd and tracy mcgrady

210Don
07-14-2011, 07:44 PM
timmy gets no respect...... hes top 5 arguably and he might fall out of the top 10 smfh

MTar786
07-14-2011, 07:45 PM
This.

Also :facepalm: for Kobe going ahead of both Timmy and Hakeem...

and this :facepalm: for you. for saying duncan over dream.

MTar786
07-14-2011, 07:46 PM
timmy gets no respect...... hes top 5 arguably and he might fall out of the top 10 smfh

HAHAHAHAHAHA he's not even arguably top 5. he is ARGUABLY top 10. id give him 11

210Don
07-14-2011, 07:46 PM
and this :facepalm: for you. for saying duncan over dream.

:facepalm: thats for you putting dream over timmy
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

210Don
07-14-2011, 07:46 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHA he's not even arguably top 5. he is ARGUABLY top 10. id give him 11

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

MTar786
07-14-2011, 07:47 PM
who got drunk and voted for karl malone?

MTar786
07-14-2011, 07:48 PM
:facepalm: thats for you putting dream over timmy
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

dream has only twice as many votes as timmy

so


:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm:

Khalifa21
07-14-2011, 07:48 PM
and this :facepalm: for you. for saying duncan over dream.

Ohh, sorry... You a little butt hurt that i'd have both of them above Kobe?

Duncan over Dream, Dream over Duncan.. They're pretty interchangeable, but both deserve to be above Kobe.

MTar786
07-14-2011, 07:49 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

seriously.. how dumb are you? duncan top 5 all time? drugs are bad for u kid

Cano4prez
07-14-2011, 07:50 PM
Ohh, sorry... You a little butt hurt that i'd have both of them above Kobe?

Duncan over Dream, Dream over Duncan.. They're pretty interchangeable, but both deserve to be above Kobe.

This

MTar786
07-14-2011, 07:50 PM
Ohh, sorry... You a little butt hurt that i'd have both of them above Kobe?

Duncan over Dream, Dream over Duncan.. They're pretty interchangeable, but both deserve to be above Kobe.

if you say so. point im arguing here is dream over duncan for the 9th spot..
now stop sucking duncans **** :facepalm:

1-800-STFU
07-14-2011, 07:50 PM
Larry Bird shouldn't be in the top 20 probably, but other than that the list seems alright

210Don
07-14-2011, 07:51 PM
if you say so. point im arguing here is dream over duncan..
now stop sucking duncans dick :facepalm:

no one is sucking duncans dick here obviously so stfu

MTar786
07-14-2011, 07:54 PM
no one is sucking duncans dick here obviously so stfu

dont get frustrated ur hero hasnt been voted in yet lol

anyway.. id call it sucking his dick when u say duncan is top 5 all time

chong2204
07-14-2011, 07:56 PM
Ohh, sorry... You a little butt hurt that i'd have both of them above Kobe?

Duncan over Dream, Dream over Duncan.. They're pretty interchangeable, but both deserve to be above Kobe.


This turns out, is a false statement...:facepalm:

MTar786
07-14-2011, 07:58 PM
This turns out, is a false statement...:facepalm:

big fat facepalm for him. he should atleast give reason to why he feels duncan should be over dream and why both should be over kobe

the other dude thinks duncan is top 5 all time HAHAHAHAHA idiot

210Don
07-14-2011, 08:03 PM
hes not my hero there are no heros in this world you must be 12. :)

PatsSoxKnicks
07-14-2011, 08:06 PM
A statistical snapshot of both Hakeem and Duncan:
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634461

Hakeem has got him slightly beat in both versions but it's a very small gap.

Some more info from basketball-reference:


led NBA DRB% DRtg DWS
Hakeem 1 5 4
Duncan 3 5



Top 3 Block% DRtg DWS Win Shares
Hakeem 4 8 7
Duncan 10 11 5



top 5 Block% Usage% DRtg DWS PER DRB% TRB% Win Shares
Hakeem 7 5 9 11
Duncan 11 12 9 7 6 8



top 10 PER TRB% Blk% DRtg DWS DRB% WS/48
Hakeem 13 8 13 11 13
Duncan 12 12 13 12 13 12


DWS stands for Defensive Win Shares

I got this from these pages:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/most_times_leading.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/most_times_top_3.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/most_times_top_5.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/most_times_top_10.html

JordansBulls
07-14-2011, 08:10 PM
thats just to show how terrible the shooting guards were compared to now in the jordan era.

the best sg's in the 90's (mj not included) were
reggie
mitch
and penny
old clyde

thats like ray allen
a better version of kevin martin
vince carter
and 2006 tmac


Anyway.. Dream to me EASILY should take this. the only argument i can come up with for duncan was his 4 rings and the mvp's he got that truly belonged to shaq

nominate: jason kidd and tracy mcgrady

Mitch Richmond was wayyy better than Kevin Martin. Mitch Richmond nowadays would be like a Carmelo Anthony/Paul Pierce type of player. And Drexler was not old, dude finished 2nd in MVP voting in the early 90's in his prime.
And you obviously never saw Penny play. Dude was like a prime Mcgrady.

Geargo Wallace
07-14-2011, 08:13 PM
I voted Duncan. Could go either way on this one. Two of my favorite players ever. I hope ppl don't forget how agile and athletic Timmy used to be (he moves like a turtle these days compared to how he used to).

mfb_lt1birdman
07-14-2011, 08:19 PM
Hard to go wrong either way here between Timmy and the Dream. Both were great big men, champions, fabulous, and humble teammates. I'm leaning towards Hakeem only because I feel he was a bit better of an athlete and had better footwork/post skillz. More imposing defensive anchor too from what I remember.

But Duncan was the centerpiece that kept a team a title contender for over a decade. More rings/mvp's. Oh man this is tough.

chong2204
07-14-2011, 08:21 PM
Voted Duncan, The dude is a beast..He proved to me that he is the pest PF of all time..

JusBanMeYouPOS
07-14-2011, 08:25 PM
Hakeem over Duncan slighty. He was the better offensive player and defensive player

Hawkeye15
07-14-2011, 08:29 PM
Ohh, sorry... You a little butt hurt that i'd have both of them above Kobe?

Duncan over Dream, Dream over Duncan.. They're pretty interchangeable, but both deserve to be above Kobe.

well, at the moment, I can agree. But Duncan appears done. And Kobe still has another year or two as a top 5-7 player it appears. So the final ranking may very well be Kobe over Duncan. As for the Dream, I think he is cemented in the #7-10 area for a few years, until LeBron enters the conversation

Hawkeye15
07-14-2011, 08:30 PM
Mitch Richmond was wayyy better than Kevin Martin. Mitch Richmond nowadays would be like a Carmelo Anthony/Paul Pierce type of player. And Drexler was not old, dude finished 2nd in MVP voting in the early 90's in his prime.
And you obviously never saw Penny play. Dude was like a prime Mcgrady.

Richmond was derailed by injuries. I think he would have been in the top 20 convo had he had a healthy career. Oh well

BillyHoyle35
07-14-2011, 08:36 PM
tough to call, but i voted Duncan before, either him or hakeem are worthy,

nominate Pippen

kdspurman
07-14-2011, 08:46 PM
Duncan had probably the best footwork since the Dream and could arguably be a better on ball defender than the dream was. I think people see Duncan of the past few years and forget just how dominant he was from his rookie year and the early 2000's. His speed, defense, offense, I mean the only flaw in his game was FT shooting. If anyone watched him then from his rookie year till about 2005, it was really a thing of beauty and he made it look easy. I voted Duncan cause I'm a long time spurs fan and being a top 10 player of all time is not exactly chop liver... Despite the poll here, I think he's solidified his spot.

That said, I'm not mad about The dream winning. Being a spurs fan, I had the unfortunate pleasure of watching him pick my guy david robinson apart in the playoffs. He was something special...

But if anyone has forgotten what timmy did in his prime, I ask you go to youtube, and look up older footage of him. Its tough to argue for a guy who's playing now on his downside cause thats the most recent memory we have vs. a guy who all we see are his highlights.

kdspurman
07-14-2011, 08:47 PM
I voted Duncan. Could go either way on this one. Two of my favorite players ever. I hope ppl don't forget how agile and athletic Timmy used to be (he moves like a turtle these days compared to how he used to).

:clap: Similar to what I posted... But I think that's what happens unfortunately. He was unbelievably quick for a 7 footer.

D-Will4Prez
07-14-2011, 08:50 PM
This is tough.

knightstemplar
07-14-2011, 08:56 PM
Larry Bird shouldn't be in the top 20 probably, but other than that the list seems alright
:laugh:
:facepalm:

NBAfan4life
07-14-2011, 09:10 PM
I went Dream. He was stronger for longer. He is just missing a couple championships.

TrueFan420
07-14-2011, 09:28 PM
timmy d

tredigs
07-14-2011, 09:33 PM
I went Dream. He was stronger for longer. He is just missing a couple championships.

Well, there was this team in Chicago...




I'll take Hakeem here. It's due time that arguably the best all around center in the games history enters this list.

If we're arguing career resume, then you have to give the nod to Duncan. But if we're simply arguing who the better player was (given a proper career resume/accolades to boot)? Then that's easy for me, it's Hakeem. He has a VERY strong case for best defensive center of all time, and would up his offensive production to the point of absolute takeover mode in virtually any playoff series he found himself in. It's a shame he rarely had elite teammates around him in order to fully challenge Jordan's Bulls and some of the other great teams of the time, but he certainly made his mark in playoff successes and accolades as well.

I love and respect Duncan, but outside of Jordan, Hakeem was the best player I've ever seen play the game.

If people choose to challenge those blanket statements, we can take a closer look at the numbers/context of those numbers.

MTar786
07-14-2011, 09:48 PM
Mitch Richmond was wayyy better than Kevin Martin. Mitch Richmond nowadays would be like a Carmelo Anthony/Paul Pierce type of player. And Drexler was not old, dude finished 2nd in MVP voting in the early 90's in his prime.
And you obviously never saw Penny play. Dude was like a prime Mcgrady.

penny was like a PRIME tmac?? hahahahaha.. when did penny even have 1 SEASON with a 30ppg average? obviously YOU never saw penny play. if u wanna compare him to tmac.. then atleast say tmac of 2005 and later.. but no where near tmacs prime :facepalm:
fun fact: penny's BEST ppg season was 21 points as to tmac 32 points

i agree with you. mitch was wayyyy better than kevin. i loved mitch richmond.. and i agree.. u make a better comparison. but by no means does paul pierce and melo even make top 50 all time anyway.. so where are u getting at? drexler was only trougout the 90's. did i say early 90's or did i say the 90's as a whole?

NBAfan4life
07-14-2011, 09:57 PM
Well, there was this team in Chicago...




I'll take Hakeem here. It's due time that arguably the best all around center in the games history enters this list.

If we're arguing career resume, then you have to give the nod to Duncan. But if we're simply arguing who the better player was (given a proper career resume/accolades to boot)? Then that's easy for me, it's Hakeem. He has a VERY strong case for best defensive center of all time, and would up his offensive production to the point of absolute takeover mode in virtually any playoff series he found himself in. It's a shame he rarely had elite teammates around him in order to fully challenge Jordan's Bulls and some of the other great teams of the time, but he certainly made his mark in playoff successes and accolades as well.

I love and respect Duncan, but outside of Jordan, Hakeem was the best player I've ever seen play the game.

If people choose to challenge those blanket statements, we can take a closer look at the numbers/context of those numbers.

^^ This sums it up pretty well in words. If you need numbers take a peak they were dominant.

Chronz
07-14-2011, 10:14 PM
Mitch Richmond was wayyy better than Kevin Martin. Mitch Richmond nowadays would be like a Carmelo Anthony/Paul Pierce type of player. And Drexler was not old, dude finished 2nd in MVP voting in the early 90's in his prime.
And you obviously never saw Penny play. Dude was like a prime Mcgrady.

Ridiculous claims, all of them

Drewlius
07-14-2011, 10:14 PM
So sad how narrow minded so many basketball fans are. The simple fact that Shaq is even mentioned in the same breath as Hakeem and Duncan is an absolute travesty. The fact that Duncan will unfortunately lose in these statistic wars because of his selfless team first attitude is very sad. It became apparent that this was always just going to be about stats as soon as the joke that is Wilt Chamberlain was voted above Bill Russell. Lost all credibility as soon as that happened, imo of course.

TO Rapz
07-14-2011, 10:17 PM
Dream.

Hustlenomics
07-14-2011, 10:29 PM
penny was like a PRIME tmac?? hahahahaha.. when did penny even have 1 SEASON with a 30ppg average? obviously YOU never saw penny play. if u wanna compare him to tmac.. then atleast say tmac of 2005 and later.. but no where near tmacs prime :facepalm:
fun fact: penny's BEST ppg season was 21 points as to tmac 32 points

i agree with you. mitch was wayyyy better than kevin. i loved mitch richmond.. and i agree.. u make a better comparison. but by no means does paul pierce and melo even make top 50 all time anyway.. so where are u getting at? drexler was only trougout the 90's. did i say early 90's or did i say the 90's as a whole?

don't disrespect, Penny he was no scrub

LAKERMANIA
07-14-2011, 10:31 PM
I'm going with Tim Duncan

I nominate Walt "Clyde" Frazier

JordansBulls
07-14-2011, 10:32 PM
penny was like a PRIME tmac?? hahahahaha.. when did penny even have 1 SEASON with a 30ppg average? obviously YOU never saw penny play. if u wanna compare him to tmac.. then atleast say tmac of 2005 and later.. but no where near tmacs prime :facepalm:
fun fact: penny's BEST ppg season was 21 points as to tmac 32 points

i agree with you. mitch was wayyyy better than kevin. i loved mitch richmond.. and i agree.. u make a better comparison. but by no means does paul pierce and melo even make top 50 all time anyway.. so where are u getting at? drexler was only trougout the 90's. did i say early 90's or did i say the 90's as a whole?

Penny was the best player on the 1996 Magic even better than Shaq. Would Prime Tmac be better than prime Shaq any year?

Geargo Wallace
07-14-2011, 10:33 PM
:clap: Similar to what I posted... But I think that's what happens unfortunately. He was unbelievably quick for a 7 footer.

Yeah man. I'm glad I wasn't the only one remembering how well he could move.


...Nominate "Pistol" Pete Maravich. Has anyone read anything on him? He was the original Showtime. Unbelievable talent. He'd flourish in today's NBA. I recommend: http://www.amazon.ca/Pistol-Life-Maravich-Mark-Kriegel/dp/0743284984/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1310697527&sr=8-2

Korman12
07-14-2011, 10:46 PM
I've been voting Duncan for a while, and still am.

LakersMaster24
07-14-2011, 10:53 PM
Hardest decision....Duncan or Hakeem?....Hakeem or Duncan?....

I am going to vote for Hakeem.

Geargo Wallace
07-14-2011, 10:53 PM
I've been voting Duncan for a while, and still am.

It's going to be funny how few total votes there will be this time since Kobe is off of the board.

MTar786
07-14-2011, 11:03 PM
don't disrespect, Penny he was no scrub

no disrespect.. but learn how to debate. i didnt call penny a scrub :facepalm:

MTar786
07-14-2011, 11:07 PM
Penny was the best player on the 1996 Magic even better than Shaq. Would Prime Tmac be better than prime Shaq any year?

That is a TERRIBLE argument.. bringing in would haves and could haves?
penny was never better than shaq :eyebrow: and penny was never better than tmac.

96 penny averaged 21 ppg and 7 assists.
51% shooting is impressive.. but not so much on 15 shots a game. if he shot 50% on near 20 shots a game and averaged 25+ then id find that impressive. but 21 ppg isnt going to cut it. especially if that was the most ppg you ever put up in ur career. Thats also not to mention the fact te penny had like what? 3 good all star type years in the nba? the rest was very average for a good player.
so if you want to call 96 penny better than shaq then be my guest.. but you're only fooling youself ...

prime tmac > prime penny.

LakersIn5
07-14-2011, 11:08 PM
gots to be timmy d

GSRaider
07-14-2011, 11:08 PM
This is a really good list, the only change I would make would be switching Russel and Bird... Jmo

Law25
07-14-2011, 11:13 PM
I had to go with Timmy because his accomplishments out weigh the Dreams, and i believe he sustained greatness for an longer period of time.

airronijordan
07-14-2011, 11:20 PM
Definitely Hakeem

tredigs
07-14-2011, 11:30 PM
I had to go with Timmy because his accomplishments out weigh the Dreams, and i believe he sustained greatness for an longer period of time.

How do ya figure? Let's look at them both at the age of 34 - Timmy's most recent season, their 13th and 14th seasons:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=olajuha01&y1=1997&p2=duncati01&y2=2011

I'd say it's clear Hakeem is the one who sustained longer (take special note of their playoff performance), along with having the stronger prime.

cmellofan15
07-14-2011, 11:50 PM
Make sure you guys nominate Wes Unseld! :)

SoapySweetness
07-15-2011, 12:03 AM
Nominations:

George Gervin
Pete Maravich
Earl Monroe
Bob Pettit
Willis Reed

KingPosey
07-15-2011, 12:14 AM
Doesn't even belong in the top 25..

Thats like, your opinion man.

If you look at some of his accomplishments you COULD argue he was one of the top couple players of his era. That easily puts him in a place to be nominated.

If guys like AI, Peyton, Nash, etc are in the conversation (yes they are all good, except I think AI is way overrated.) Mitch is in the conversation. He had a complete game, on both sides of the floor.

KingPosey
07-15-2011, 12:26 AM
Mitch Richmond was wayyy better than Kevin Martin. Mitch Richmond nowadays would be like a Carmelo Anthony/Paul Pierce type of player. And Drexler was not old, dude finished 2nd in MVP voting in the early 90's in his prime.
And you obviously never saw Penny play. Dude was like a prime Mcgrady.

No way, Mitch Richmond was a year in year out All NBA team, his game was absurdly complete. What kept him off of first teams was the fact Jordan was there, sprinkle in a little Drex, and some Stockton, and its a rough go at the guard spot.. There really isnt a guy comparable to Mitch playing now, no guards play like he and Jordan did.

I wish there was an easy way to watch old films, he saw some of the most absurd night in and night out double and triple teams. He played in Sac, with some of the worst rosters, so people didnt get to see him play. Even his incredible numbers do not do him justice.

KingPosey
07-15-2011, 12:30 AM
thats just to show how terrible the shooting guards were compared to now in the jordan era.

the best sg's in the 90's (mj not included) were
reggie
mitch
and penny
old clyde

thats like ray allen
a better version of kevin martin
vince carter
and 2006 tmac

Anyway.. Dream to me EASILY should take this. the only argument i can come up with for duncan was his 4 rings and the mvp's he got that truly belonged to shaq

nominate: jason kidd and tracy mcgrady

you either were to young to watch that era, or you didnt, because all of that is incorrect, and not comparable at all. Mitch is like KMart? Their games are NOTHING alike, none of it. Clyde was old? He dominated in what, 92? Penny was a PG till his injuries ruined his career.

MTar786
07-15-2011, 12:36 AM
you either were to young to watch that era, or you didnt, because all of that is incorrect, and not comparable at all. Mitch is like KMart? Their games are NOTHING alike, none of it. Clyde was old? He dominated in what, 92? Penny was a PG till his injuries ruined his career.

i had already said i didnt make an accurate comparison.. learn to read forum wall posts or at least reply to the LATEST post. not something that was posted a while ago. and.. i didnt say clyde didnt dominate in 92. i called hhim old THROUGHOUT the 90's.. did he dominate in 97? 96? 95? nope

JordansBulls
07-15-2011, 01:02 AM
penny was like a PRIME tmac?? hahahahaha.. when did penny even have 1 SEASON with a 30ppg average? obviously YOU never saw penny play. if u wanna compare him to tmac.. then atleast say tmac of 2005 and later.. but no where near tmacs prime :facepalm:
fun fact: penny's BEST ppg season was 21 points as to tmac 32 points

i agree with you. mitch was wayyyy better than kevin. i loved mitch richmond.. and i agree.. u make a better comparison. but by no means does paul pierce and melo even make top 50 all time anyway.. so where are u getting at? drexler was only trougout the 90's. did i say early 90's or did i say the 90's as a whole?

Penny would abuse Pippen whenever he played the Bulls. Also Penny led the Magic in WS in the season and playoffs in 1996 and was 3rd in MVP voting while Shaq was 9th. Penny was clearly better that season.

tredigs
07-15-2011, 01:07 AM
i had already said i didnt make an accurate comparison.. learn to read forum wall posts or at least reply to the LATEST post. not something that was posted a while ago. and.. i didnt say clyde didnt dominate in 92. i called hhim old THROUGHOUT the 90's.. did he dominate in 97? 96? 95? nope

You mentioned how weak the SG's were during Jordan's era, and said that Clyde was past his prime I believe. Fact of the matter is that he joined the league at nearly the exact same time as MJ, and Jordan had plenty of formidable 2's during his era.

Hershey Hawkins, Reggie, Hornacek (try taking a play off defensively against this guy... net), Starks, Joe Dumars, Clyde, Sprewell in the 90's, and of course Mitch Richmond. Not taking a night off against any of those dudes.

Loving the Mitch love by the way. Run TMC was a show and a half in Golden State, and Mitch only got better when he went outside the Bay to Sac. The guy was just an amazing talent - just so, so solid. Never had the insane physical gifts of a guy like MJ to take him to the stratospheric level, but watching him night in night out, he truly was a guy who would go toe to toe with anyone he played against (dominating most of them), including Jordan (the one he couldn't). Most nights throughout much of his career, he was the best player on the court.

There's a thread open right now arguing Robert Freakin' Horry's merits for the hall due to his ridiculous ring tally (playing with the greatest players, with the greatest coaches and on the greatest teams of the past few generations), while meanwhile one of the better shooting guards the game has seen is on the outside looking due to playing his prime with sub-par talent. This is why I always mention that context is king.

In other news, I nominate Pippen.

cmellofan15
07-15-2011, 01:11 AM
Last Poll

Tim Duncan = 65 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 59 votes
Oscar Robertson = 19 votes

This Poll

Tim Duncan = 45 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 61 votes
Oscar Robertson = 8 votes


:laugh2:

gotta love the consistency.

Ebbs
07-15-2011, 01:42 AM
46 votes for Duncan and 1 for Malone is kind of surprising. Also let me just wipe the vomit from my mouth seeing Kobe at 8.

cmellofan15
07-15-2011, 01:49 AM
46 votes for Duncan and 1 for Malone is kind of surprising. Also let me just wipe the vomit from my mouth seeing Kobe at 8.

yeah, well it's psd. what did you expect?

Lakersfan2483
07-15-2011, 01:49 AM
Hakeem Olajuwon

CHANGO
07-15-2011, 01:56 AM
Tim Duncan, then The Dream.

Lakersfan2483
07-15-2011, 02:10 AM
I nominate Scottie Pippen, Kevin Mchale, and Willis Reed.

EaglePride615
07-15-2011, 02:41 AM
if timmy d doesnt make top 10... hes the best PF to ever play the game.

YourTeamSucks
07-15-2011, 03:17 AM
seriously charles needs to get some love damn it!

MTar786
07-15-2011, 04:17 AM
yeah, well it's psd. what did you expect?

ya, ur right man! if this wasnt PSD kobe would have went between 5 and 7

MTar786
07-15-2011, 04:19 AM
You mentioned how weak the SG's were during Jordan's era, and said that Clyde was past his prime I believe. Fact of the matter is that he joined the league at nearly the exact same time as MJ, and Jordan had plenty of formidable 2's during his era.

Hershey Hawkins, Reggie, Hornacek (try taking a play off defensively against this guy... net), Starks, Joe Dumars, Clyde, Sprewell in the 90's, and of course Mitch Richmond. Not taking a night off against any of those dudes.

Loving the Mitch love by the way. Run TMC was a show and a half in Golden State, and Mitch only got better when he went outside the Bay to Sac. The guy was just an amazing talent - just so, so solid. Never had the insane physical gifts of a guy like MJ to take him to the stratospheric level, but watching him night in night out, he truly was a guy who would go toe to toe with anyone he played against (dominating most of them), including Jordan (the one he couldn't). Most nights throughout much of his career, he was the best player on the court.

There's a thread open right now arguing Robert Freakin' Horry's merits for the hall due to his ridiculous ring tally (playing with the greatest players, with the greatest coaches and on the greatest teams of the past few generations), while meanwhile one of the better shooting guards the game has seen is on the outside looking due to playing his prime with sub-par talent. This is why I always mention that context is king.

In other news, I nominate Pippen.

i like mitch as much as the next guy.. but dude.. you sound like you wanna ride him dirty

NYKalltheway
07-15-2011, 05:06 AM
Nominations:

George Gervin
Pete Maravich
Earl Monroe
Bob Pettit
Willis Reed

I like your style

btw. Mitch Richmond & Penny Hardaway :drool:
And will someone please remove Lebron and Wade from the polls before it gets ugly? :p

Venomous88
07-15-2011, 06:13 AM
I like your style

btw. Mitch Richmond & Penny Hardaway :drool:
And will someone please remove Lebron and Wade from the polls before it gets ugly? :pWhy? Both players belong in top 30 even if their careers ended today.

NYKalltheway
07-15-2011, 06:53 AM
Why? Both players belong in top 30 even if their careers ended today.

So we got the 8 so far who are better

We got:

Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Moses Malone
Julius Erving
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
John Havlicek
George Mikan
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Bob Cousy
Walt Frazier
Willis Reed
Bernard King
Bob Petit
Gary Payton
Wes Unseld
Earl Monroe
Pete Maravich
Elgin Baylor
James Worthy
Rick Barry
Nate Archibald
Dave deBusschere
George Gervin
Elvin Hayes
Kevin McHale
Robert Parish
Scottie Pippen
Shawn Kemp

among others... You think that both Lebron and Wade are better than any 22 of those? :confused:

sventhedog
07-15-2011, 07:20 AM
hakeem is the dream but hakeem can only dream of titles duncan has won. so duncan wins!

JordansBulls
07-15-2011, 08:01 AM
Last Poll

Tim Duncan = 65 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 59 votes
Oscar Robertson = 19 votes

This Poll

Tim Duncan = 45 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 61 votes
Oscar Robertson = 8 votes


:laugh2:

gotta love the consistency.

Well some of the posters who voted Kobe there votes are split between Hakeem and Duncan.

kdspurman
07-15-2011, 08:53 AM
How do ya figure? Let's look at them both at the age of 34 - Timmy's most recent season, their 13th and 14th seasons:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=olajuha01&y1=1997&p2=duncati01&y2=2011

I'd say it's clear Hakeem is the one who sustained longer (take special note of their playoff performance), along with having the stronger prime.


Actually, you're missing the fact that Tim played 8 less minutes than Hakeem Did at his age. If you look at the per 36 they are very close. Not to mention the number of deep playoff runs Tim has had up until now vs Hakeem did. The wear and tear is affecting Tim more at his age than it did with Hakeem. By the age of 34, Tim Duncan played in 176 playoff games. Hakeem at age 34 played in 131. Big difference and it shows who was consistently greater. Not their stats of their season @ the age of 34.

NYKalltheway
07-15-2011, 09:30 AM
By the age of 34, Tim Duncan played in 176 playoff games. Hakeem at age 34 played in 131. Big difference and it shows who was consistently greater.

Actually it just shows that Duncan played for the better team than Hakeem.

kdspurman
07-15-2011, 09:43 AM
Actually it just shows that Duncan played for the better team than Hakeem.


Hakeem wasn't exactly playing with scrubs. That's a weak argument. Otis Thorpe was solid, Robert Horry, Charles Barkley, Clyde Drexler, Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, Kevin Willis, these aren't exactly scrubs. So that whole better team argument is bs.

Part of the reason Tim is overlooked so much in terms of greatness is cause he did it every single year consistently. Back In 2003, when they won it all David Robinson at times played limited minutes (Age), Tony Parker was getting benched for Speedy Claxton, Malik Rose/Kevin Willis shared heavy minutes, Ginobili/Stephen Jackson were still pretty new. Whoever was on the floor Duncan made them better and fueled that team. Great players get it done regardless who they're on the floor with.

NBAfan4life
07-15-2011, 10:31 AM
Well some of the posters who voted Kobe there votes are split between Hakeem and Duncan.

Kobe last poll, Dream this poll.

NBAfan4life
07-15-2011, 11:02 AM
Hakeem wasn't exactly playing with scrubs. That's a weak argument. Otis Thorpe was solid, Robert Horry, Charles Barkley, Clyde Drexler, Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, Kevin Willis, these aren't exactly scrubs. So that whole better team argument is bs.

Part of the reason Tim is overlooked so much in terms of greatness is cause he did it every single year consistently. Back In 2003, when they won it all David Robinson at times played limited minutes (Age), Tony Parker was getting benched for Speedy Claxton, Malik Rose/Kevin Willis shared heavy minutes, Ginobili/Stephen Jackson were still pretty new. Whoever was on the floor Duncan made them better and fueled that team. Great players get it done regardless who they're on the floor with.

Tim Duncan has been blessed with great teams similar to Kobe. Kobe and Timmy had probably the one and two best teams since they entered the league. That does not take away from their legacy, but trying to say Dream had as great of teammates is silly.

The numbers don't lie. Dream put up better numbers through a much stronger era of centers. His peak is stronger, his career numbers are better. The only thing missing is two championships.

For me it hs to be Dream here.

theheatles
07-15-2011, 11:02 AM
So we got the 8 so far who are better

We got:

Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Moses Malone
Julius Erving
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
John Havlicek
George Mikan
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkins
Bob Cousy
Walt Frazier
Willis Reed
Bernard King
Bob Petit
Gary Payton
Wes Unseld
Earl Monroe
Pete Maravich
Elgin Baylor
James Worthy
Rick Barry
Nate Archibald
Dave deBusschere
George Gervin
Elvin Hayes
Kevin McHale
Robert Parish
Scottie Pippen
Shawn Kemp

among others... You think that both Lebron and Wade are better than any 22 of those? :confused:

lol wade and lebron are greater than any of these guys in bold, today...and with time they'll surpass A LOT more

kdspurman
07-15-2011, 11:16 AM
Tim Duncan has been blessed with great teams similar to Kobe. Kobe and Timmy had probably the one and two best teams since they entered the league. That does not take away from their legacy, but trying to say Dream had as great of teammates is silly.

The numbers don't lie. Dream put up better numbers through a much stronger era of centers. His peak is stronger, his career numbers are better. The only thing missing is two championships.

For me it hs to be Dream here.

I didn't say he had as great of teams, but he was on some great teams. People always say he had a crap team, but the rockets were always a dangerous team from the time he went there. He didnt always have a 2nd all star with him no, but he did at some points in his career.

And i think it's debatable who's peak was stronger. The early 2000's, Tim was a monster on both ends. Dont confuse the Tim you saw vs the grizzlies with the one from 98-2005.

tredigs
07-15-2011, 11:18 AM
Actually, you're missing the fact that Tim played 8 less minutes than Hakeem Did at his age. If you look at the per 36 they are very close. Not to mention the number of deep playoff runs Tim has had up until now vs Hakeem did. The wear and tear is affecting Tim more at his age than it did with Hakeem. By the age of 34, Tim Duncan played in 176 playoff games. Hakeem at age 34 played in 131. Big difference and it shows who was consistently greater. Not their stats of their season @ the age of 34.

... and you're missing the fact that even though Hakeem was playing a full games worth of minutes (and putting up higher production), he was still able to put up 23/11/3.4 with 2stls and 3blks (27.6 PER, 121 Orating, .229 WS/48) in the playoffs while he led the Rockets to the WCF. Meanwhile, Duncan at the same age (don't give me the 40 extra playoff games over a 13 year career nonsense, any of that argument is entirely moot based on his extremely limited minutes as compared to Hakeem in the regular season) was overpowered and dominated in the first round by the 8th seed (12.7 and 10.5 with a PER of 15, 94 Orating and .053 WS/48. Horrible). No longer even the most potent player on his own team.

Don't be so shortsighted to think that the deep playoff runs of Duncan earlier in his career are due to him being the better player than Dream, rather than the situations each was in.

KingPosey
07-15-2011, 11:19 AM
If Shawn Kemp's body of work gets him nominated, then I still ,nominate Mitch.

Da Knicks
07-15-2011, 11:21 AM
Went with duncan since he should of being number 8 but oh well if dream takes it. Dream was very good, i agree both should of being picked before Kobe...

Geargo Wallace
07-15-2011, 11:28 AM
Well some of the posters who voted Kobe there votes are split between Hakeem and Duncan.

lol some. There's been WAY less total votes right now. The Kobe fanboys lost interest, or didn't bother using the accounts that they made to vote for him.... There was 274 total voters in the last poll.

mightybosstone
07-15-2011, 11:34 AM
Hakeem wasn't exactly playing with scrubs. That's a weak argument. Otis Thorpe was solid, Robert Horry, Charles Barkley, Clyde Drexler, Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, Kevin Willis, these aren't exactly scrubs. So that whole better team argument is bs.
For the first Finals, Hakeem didn't have an all-star caliber player on that team and he doubled the scoring average of the second leading scorer in that series (Vernon Maxwell). He only had Drexler, Barkley and Willis for a short time in the twilight of their careers and only had guys like Horry and Cassell for a very short time at the beginning of their careers.

When you consider what happened with the 86 Rockets, who were extremely talented but clearly had off the court issues, Hakeem's career will always be a "what if" to me. If Sampson stayed healthy and his teammates hadn't had coke problems, that Rockets team could have won multiple championships in the late 80s...


Part of the reason Tim is overlooked so much in terms of greatness is cause he did it every single year consistently. Back In 2003, when they won it all David Robinson at times played limited minutes (Age), Tony Parker was getting benched for Speedy Claxton, Malik Rose/Kevin Willis shared heavy minutes, Ginobili/Stephen Jackson were still pretty new. Whoever was on the floor Duncan made them better and fueled that team. Great players get it done regardless who they're on the floor with.
Exactly....which is why Hakeem won two titles. But, IMO, the talent level and the number of quality teams in the NBA in the 90s far surpasses those of the teams in the early 2000s. Essentially there was San Antonio, LA and mostly scrubs. Detroit was the only halfway decent team in the East at the time...

GoPacers33
07-15-2011, 11:35 AM
Timmay

mightybosstone
07-15-2011, 11:38 AM
Actually, you're missing the fact that Tim played 8 less minutes than Hakeem Did at his age. If you look at the per 36 they are very close. Not to mention the number of deep playoff runs Tim has had up until now vs Hakeem did. The wear and tear is affecting Tim more at his age than it did with Hakeem. By the age of 34, Tim Duncan played in 176 playoff games. Hakeem at age 34 played in 131. Big difference and it shows who was consistently greater. Not their stats of their season @ the age of 34.

This is a horrible argument. Look at the teams Hakeem played with in the late 80s, early 90s and you'll see why he didn't have more deep playoff runs. Those teams pale significantly in comparison to the talent Duncan has consistently had since he's been in the league. And that's before the fact that the Spurs had George freakin' Poppovich coaching...

JordansBulls
07-15-2011, 11:47 AM
lol some. There's been WAY less total votes right now. The Kobe fanboys lost interest, or didn't bother using the accounts that they made to vote for him.... There was 274 total voters in the last poll.

There is still a day in like 8 hours left. You are acting like the poll is ending today. Also for the #8 poll we had that one open for 3 days because the #7 poll was a runaway. But for now on, not going to be closing these prior to the 2 day limit unless a player has 75% of the vote or so.

Swashcuff
07-15-2011, 11:51 AM
This is a horrible argument. Look at the teams Hakeem played with in the late 80s, early 90s and you'll see why he didn't have more deep playoff runs. Those teams pale significantly in comparison to the talent Duncan has consistently had since he's been in the league. And that's before the fact that the Spurs had George freakin' Poppovich coaching...

I saw that and laughed. I mean I went Timmy here myself but that certainly was not part of my reasoning. Robert Horry played in more than twice as much playoff games than Kevin Garnett that doesn't mean he's a better PF.

mightybosstone
07-15-2011, 12:02 PM
I saw that and laughed. I mean I went Timmy here myself but that certainly was not part of my reasoning. Robert Horry played in more than twice as much playoff games than Kevin Garnett that doesn't mean he's a better PF.

Based on his logic, Brian Scalabrine has played in 39 playoff games and Kevin Durant only 23. Therefore, Scalabrine is clearly the better player. :facepalm:

todu82
07-15-2011, 01:37 PM
Oscar Robertson

Geargo Wallace
07-15-2011, 02:18 PM
There is still a day in like 8 hours left. You are acting like the poll is ending today. Also for the #8 poll we had that one open for 3 days because the #7 poll was a runaway. But for now on, not going to be closing these prior to the 2 day limit unless a player has 75% of the vote or so.

we'll have to see then meng.

alexander_37
07-15-2011, 03:27 PM
I weep for the NBA forum Kobe over Dream ...... IMO #8 dream #9 Timmy D #10 Kobe

legalize
07-15-2011, 03:52 PM
I weep for the NBA forum Kobe over Dream ...... IMO #8 dream #9 Timmy D #10 Kobe

I weep for biased and irrational opinions. If Kobe hadnt accomplished more and been greater for a longer period of time than both Hakeem and Duncan then youd have a point, but the fact that he has, and its written in stone just makes your point so unfounded. The hate and bias towards the man is irrational. At least have a foundation to the opinion. Dont vote someone out just cuz you dont like him. Lets all be reasonable if possible and give credit where its due.

mightybosstone
07-15-2011, 04:50 PM
I weep for biased and irrational opinions. If Kobe hadnt accomplished more and been greater for a longer period of time than both Hakeem and Duncan then youd have a point, but the fact that he has, and its written in stone just makes your point so unfounded. The hate and bias towards the man is irrational. At least have a foundation to the opinion. Dont vote someone out just cuz you dont like him. Lets all be reasonable if possible and give credit where its due.

At what point in his post did he express "hate" towards Kobe Bryant? In fact, he just stated that he thought Kobe was the tenth greatest player of all time, but that Dream and Duncan were better. You can't say someone's the 10th GOAT and not respect the guy or think he's a phenomenal player.

And I'm not going to go into this argument again, but there were a lot of excellent arguments in the previous thread that made strong cases for Hakeem or Duncan over Kobe. If you can't see both sides of the argument, perhaps you are the "biased" or "irrational" person...

kdspurman
07-15-2011, 05:23 PM
Based on his logic, Brian Scalabrine has played in 39 playoff games and Kevin Durant only 23. Therefore, Scalabrine is clearly the better player. :facepalm:

I think you folks are either misreading, or cant comprehend. My argument was if player A (duncan) plays more games than Player B (hakeem), then PLayer A is more likely to break down earlier in his career and slow down. That was my point in regards to why their numbers are different at the age of 34. Has nothing to do with who ever played more is the better player :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

kdspurman
07-15-2011, 05:25 PM
This is a horrible argument. Look at the teams Hakeem played with in the late 80s, early 90s and you'll see why he didn't have more deep playoff runs. Those teams pale significantly in comparison to the talent Duncan has consistently had since he's been in the league. And that's before the fact that the Spurs had George freakin' Poppovich coaching...

Again, my point is there's a reason 1 player will begin to break down earlier in their career. Has nothing to do with who the better player is. I think people didn't read my posts they're seeing one thing and running with it despite clearly not understanding. I said I'm fine with Hakeem being #9. :facepalm: I brought up the amount of games played when someone tried to compare their stats at age 34 like that has any significance. My point was if 1 guy plays more games and goes deeper in the playoffs year by year, he is likely to have more wear and tear than a guy who played in less playoff games.

legalize
07-15-2011, 05:32 PM
At what point in his post did he express "hate" towards Kobe Bryant? In fact, he just stated that he thought Kobe was the tenth greatest player of all time, but that Dream and Duncan were better. You can't say someone's the 10th GOAT and not respect the guy or think he's a phenomenal player.

And I'm not going to go into this argument again, but there were a lot of excellent arguments in the previous thread that made strong cases for Hakeem or Duncan over Kobe. If you can't see both sides of the argument, perhaps you are the "biased" or "irrational" person...

There are no "strong" arguments which put Hakeem or Duncan above Kobe when its clear Kobe has accomplished more, has been more successfull, and has been a greater individual player than both Hakeem and Duncan. These are all facts that are displayed through each one's career accomplishments and accolades. THeres no disputing that. All the PERs, and Win shares and other made up stats cannot dispute that. The fact that people are arguing and whining because KObe got 8th is bias towards him because his accomplishments and success say he is actually better than 8th.

ReggieTimeGOAT
07-15-2011, 06:00 PM
Olajuwon should go here, and Reggie Miller should be on the list ;)

NBAfan4life
07-15-2011, 06:03 PM
Again, my point is there's a reason 1 player will begin to break down earlier in their career. Has nothing to do with who the better player is. I think people didn't read my posts they're seeing one thing and running with it despite clearly not understanding. I said I'm fine with Hakeem being #9. :facepalm: I brought up the amount of games played when someone tried to compare their stats at age 34 like that has any significance. My point was if 1 guy plays more games and goes deeper in the playoffs year by year, he is likely to have more wear and tear than a guy who played in less playoff games.

Duncan and Hakeems minutes were pretty close, they were separated by like 2500 minutes or so give or take. Hakeem did not start playing in the NBA until 22. If Hakeem started playing at 21 even missing the playoffs he would have more minutes at age 34.

Stuckey#3
07-15-2011, 06:10 PM
I vote Hakeem with Timmy right behind...

It's good to see AI on the list and getting votes. It's too bad we couldn't do it like ESPN and have a ranking system 1-25 weighted with overall votes. I think it would be a little more accurate.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-15-2011, 06:12 PM
There are no "strong" arguments which put Hakeem or Duncan above Kobe when its clear Kobe has accomplished more, has been more successfull, and has been a greater individual player than both Hakeem and Duncan. These are all facts that are displayed through each one's career accomplishments and accolades. THeres no disputing that. All the PERs, and Win shares and other made up stats cannot dispute that. The fact that people are arguing and whining because KObe got 8th is bias towards him because his accomplishments and success say he is actually better than 8th.

BTW, we get it, you're a Kobe fanboy. No need to keep rambling on about him. This thread is about Hakeem and Duncan.

Since I'm sure you'll retort with the "rings argument", Robert Horry has more rings then Kobe, does that mean he's better? Oh and I absolutely love your argument, everyone is a hater. You know who makes those kinds of arguments? Homers and people who don't have the actual brain power to have an intelligent conversation.

and made up? lol

Just because you don't have the brain power to understand a stat, it doesn't mean it's made up. Well, technically I suppose every stat is "made up". Points per game would technically be "made up" too. But thats not the point.

But since you asked:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

Oh and guess what? the guy who "created" (as you say) win shares? Yeah, he's currently working for an NBA team. So are many other advanced stat guys. APBRmetrics is very much involved in the NBA. Just because as a fan, you don't understand something, you don't dismiss it. This is the what less evolved individuals do.

Now, if you wanted to actually address the issues with these stats, instead of calling them made up, be my guest. I'll even help your cause, one of the issues with a lot of stats in general, is they don't do that great of a job capturing defense (although there's been some great advances in that area and at this point, maybe what I'm saying isn't true anymore).

Finally, you don't even have to use advanced stats to come to the conclusion that Kobe isn't as good as Dream or Duncan. You could simply watch the game and say, Kobe doesn't have the same impact on the court that Dream/Duncan do because relative to their position, they were better rebounders, passers and as big men are more important defensively regardless.

PS- As I'm sure you're just interested in Kobe's flashy points per game stats, there's more to the game then just scoring the basketball. Rebounding, passing, playing defense, etc. are all important too.

PSS- Duncan and Dream are quite the accomplished individuals also. They've gotten numerous accolades. Duncan is a two time MVP vs. the 1 that Kobe has. Anyways, each of those 2 are just as accomplished as Kobe. You're just a fanboy who can't see it.

NBAfan4life
07-15-2011, 06:29 PM
BTW, we get it, you're a Kobe fanboy. No need to keep rambling on about him. This thread is about Hakeem and Duncan.

Since I'm sure you'll retort with the "rings argument", Robert Horry has more rings then Kobe, does that mean he's better?

and made up? lol

Just because you don't have the brain power to understand a stat, it doesn't mean it's made up. Well, technically I suppose every stat is "made up". Points per game would technically be "made up" too. But thats not the point.

But since you asked:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

Oh and guess what? the guy who "created" (as you say) win shares? Yeah, he's currently working for an NBA team. So are many other advanced stat guys. APBRmetrics is very much involved in the NBA. Just because as a fan, you don't understand something, you don't dismiss it. This is the what less evolved individuals do.

Now, if you wanted to actually address the issues with these stats, instead of calling them made up, be my guest. I'll even help your cause, one of the issues with a lot of stats in general, is they don't do that great of a job capturing defense (although there's been some great advances in that area).

Finally, you don't even have to use advanced stats to come to the conclusion that Kobe isn't as good as Dream or Duncan. You could simply watch the game and say, Kobe doesn't have the same impact on the court that Dream/Duncan do.

PS- As I'm sure you're just interested in Kobe's flashy points per game stats, there's more to the game then just scoring the basketball. Rebounding, passing, playing defense, etc. are all important too.

PSS- Duncan and Dream are quite the accomplished individuals also. They've gotten numerous accolades. Duncan is a two time MVP vs. the 1 that Kobe has. Anyways, each of those 2 are just as accomplished as Kobe. You're just a fanboy who can't see it.

I understand people being upset with Kobe being picked over Hakeem, but Duncan and Kobe are a toss up. What really bugs me though about these debates on PSD is how Hakeem and Timmy are obviously so superior to Kobe but not Bird. To each his own I guess.

legalize
07-15-2011, 06:34 PM
BTW, we get it, you're a Kobe fanboy. No need to keep rambling on about him. This thread is about Hakeem and Duncan.

Since I'm sure you'll retort with the "rings argument", Robert Horry has more rings then Kobe, does that mean he's better? Oh and I absolutely love your argument, everyone is a hater. You know who makes those kinds of arguments? Homers and people who don't have the actual brain power to have an intelligent conversation.

and made up? lol

Just because you don't have the brain power to understand a stat, it doesn't mean it's made up. Well, technically I suppose every stat is "made up". Points per game would technically be "made up" too. But thats not the point.

But since you asked:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

Oh and guess what? the guy who "created" (as you say) win shares? Yeah, he's currently working for an NBA team. So are many other advanced stat guys. APBRmetrics is very much involved in the NBA. Just because as a fan, you don't understand something, you don't dismiss it. This is the what less evolved individuals do.

Now, if you wanted to actually address the issues with these stats, instead of calling them made up, be my guest. I'll even help your cause, one of the issues with a lot of stats in general, is they don't do that great of a job capturing defense (although there's been some great advances in that area and at this point, maybe what I'm saying isn't true anymore).

Finally, you don't even have to use advanced stats to come to the conclusion that Kobe isn't as good as Dream or Duncan. You could simply watch the game and say, Kobe doesn't have the same impact on the court that Dream/Duncan do because relative to their position, they were better rebounders, passers and as big men are more important defensively regardless.

PS- As I'm sure you're just interested in Kobe's flashy points per game stats, there's more to the game then just scoring the basketball. Rebounding, passing, playing defense, etc. are all important too.

PSS- Duncan and Dream are quite the accomplished individuals also. They've gotten numerous accolades. Duncan is a two time MVP vs. the 1 that Kobe has. Anyways, each of those 2 are just as accomplished as Kobe. You're just a fanboy who can't see it.

Na..actually not a big fan of Kobe or the Lakers. Just a fan of the game, and when people make opinions on players based on their biases its just really annoying. As far as success goes, Kobe has surpassed both Hakeem and Duncan. I mean just looking at their resumes, Kobe has both of them beat. I would just love to see a reasonable poll thats all. If you dont like KObe then nobodys gonna blame you, but if you start making arguments about so and so being better even though their careers speak form themselves, thats just irrational.

And as far as "impact" goes, nobody has dominated their era more in terms of winning than Kobe. Thats more impactful than any individual numbers.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-15-2011, 06:36 PM
I understand people being upset with Kobe being picked over Hakeem, but Duncan and Kobe are a toss up. What really bugs me though about these debates on PSD is how Hakeem and Timmy are obviously so superior to Kobe but not Bird. To each his own I guess.

Personally, I believe ALL of the all-time greats are really close with the exception of MJ, who is head and shoulders above everyone.

However what I don't like and what my post was trying to address is people who are fanboys who sit there and dismiss what Duncan and Hakeem have accomplished and call it laughable that either of them could be ranked ahead of Kobe (which is what that other guy was doing).

It's not at all laughable. As for Bird, I'd have to do more research on him before I'd be comfortable and where I'd rank him. But at first glance, I might have both Hakeem and Duncan ahead of Bird.

One thing I will say is that a big man will always be more valuable then a 2 guard or 3 guard, so I suppose my list would end up being a lot of big men at the top, which maybe isn't fair.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-15-2011, 06:41 PM
Na..actually not a big fan of Kobe or the Lakers. Just a fan of the game, and when people make opinions on players based on their biases its just really annoying. As far as success goes, Kobe has surpassed both Hakeem and Duncan. I mean just looking at their resumes, Kobe has both of them beat. I would just love to see a reasonable poll thats all. If you dont like KObe then nobodys gonna blame you, but if you start making arguments about so and so being better even though their careers speak form themselves, thats just irrational.

You keep going on about their resumes but haven't actually bothered to post anything in regards to accomplishments and accolades. Have you actually seen the list of accolades/accomplishments for Duncan? I'm willing to bet no.

What you are doing is being irrational because you're essentially saying that Duncan and Hakeem have no argument for being better then Kobe? Seriously? Do you watch basketball?

For what its worth, I'm not saying Kobe is a bad player at all. I mean he's in discussion for the top 10 of all-time. Thats an amazing feat. And him being lower than Duncan and/or Hakeem who are also all-time greats is not hating on him. I know Kobe for a fact has a tremendous amount of respect for Hakeem (witness him working out with Hakeem).

I think the big thing you are missing is the fact that a lot of these all-time greats are very close. The only guy who I could really put head and shoulders above everyone else is MJ.



And as far as "impact" goes, nobody has dominated their era more in terms of winning than Kobe. Thats more impactful than any individual numbers.

Robert Horry has 7 rings, therefore, Horry > Kobe.

PS- I was being very sarcastic. Just trying to prove a point on how irrational it is to only look at rings. Basketball is a TEAM sport. Kobe doesn't have 5 rings without Shaq or Gasol, just like Tim doesn't have 4 rings without Manu or Parker. Same goes for MJ and Pippen. You don't seem to get that though...

Geargo Wallace
07-15-2011, 06:45 PM
Na..actually not a big fan of Kobe or the Lakers. Just a fan of the game, and when people make opinions on players based on their biases its just really annoying. As far as success goes, Kobe has surpassed both Hakeem and Duncan. I mean just looking at their resumes, Kobe has both of them beat. I would just love to see a reasonable poll thats all. If you dont like KObe then nobodys gonna blame you, but if you start making arguments about so and so being better even though their careers speak form themselves, thats just irrational.

And as far as "impact" goes, nobody has dominated their era more in terms of winning than Kobe. That's more impactful than any individual numbers.

He did an excellent job explaining that it wasn't bias that made his decision. Many of us share the same opinion of Hakeem/Timmy >Kobe.


Nobody? So Kobe is #1? If you're talking about this era, Duncan has constantly put together winning seasons and playoff appearances as the man on the Spurs squads. How has Kobe been any more impactful than Duncan has been?

astrosmaniac
07-15-2011, 06:53 PM
And as far as "impact" goes, nobody has dominated their era more in terms of winning than Kobe. Thats more impactful than any individual numbers.

I'm pretty sure there's a guy who goes by MJ who dominated more than Kobe. He dominated the league, left, came back, and dominated some more lol

Ebbs
07-15-2011, 06:57 PM
Am I crazy if I already consider putting LeBron higher all time than Kobe?

PatsSoxKnicks
07-15-2011, 06:59 PM
Am I crazy if I already consider putting LeBron higher all time than Kobe?

He's a much better all around player and I'm 100% positive he'll go down as the better player, however I don't think he's been in the league long enough yet. And this is coming from someone who really values peak performance.

IMO, he needs at least 2 more seasons before he even "qualifies" for this kind of discussion.

NBAfan4life
07-15-2011, 07:01 PM
Am I crazy if I already consider putting LeBron higher all time than Kobe?

Hell yeah you're crazy. Off your rocker IMO.

Ebbs
07-15-2011, 07:14 PM
He's a much better all around player and I'm 100% positive he'll go down as the better player, however I don't think he's been in the league long enough yet. And this is coming from someone who really values peak performance.

IMO, he needs at least 2 more seasons before he even "qualifies" for this kind of discussion.

(LeBron has played 7 less years.)

I don't know if I would yet but it's on my mind.

Just some reasons why I consider this.

LeBron took IMO the worst team to ever make the finals by himself. Kobe always had an elite cast.

In 7 more years Kobe's highest PER is 28. LeBron has had 28.1, 29.1, 31.7, 31.1 so 4 better PER's in 7 less years.

LeBron has 2 MVPs Kobe has 1.

Kobe's best ORTG is 115 3 times. LeBron has 115, 116x2, 121, 122

Kobe's best DRTG is 98 And LeBron's is 99 but LeBron has the better career DRTG.

Kobe's best WS/48 is .224 LeBrons had .232, .242, .318, .299, .244

I don't put much stock in career numbers as they either tip the favor one way or the other til their both done but LeBron has the better career EFG% and TS%. Even his 3P% which was heavily criticized most of his career, is only 4% behind Kobe's all time.

In the playoffs per game Kobe is putting up 25, 5, 5 LeBron is putting up 28, 8,7.

20 players of the month for LeBron and 14 for Kobe.

Geargo Wallace
07-15-2011, 07:16 PM
Am I crazy if I already consider putting LeBron higher all time than Kobe?

I think he's been the better player for a few years now. He likely wont end up with all of those team and arbitrary accolades that Kobe has. We'll have to wait til it's all said and done.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-15-2011, 07:32 PM
(LeBron has played 7 less years.)

I don't know if I would yet but it's on my mind.

Just some reasons why I consider this.

LeBron took IMO the worst team to ever make the finals by himself. Kobe always had an elite cast.

In 7 more years Kobe's highest PER is 28. LeBron has had 28.1, 29.1, 31.7, 31.1 so 4 better PER's in 7 less years.

LeBron has 2 MVPs Kobe has 1.

Kobe's best ORTG is 115 3 times. LeBron has 115, 116x2, 121, 122

Kobe's best DRTG is 98 And LeBron's is 99 but LeBron has the better career DRTG.

Kobe's best WS/48 is .224 LeBrons had .232, .242, .318, .299, .244

I don't put much stock in career numbers as they either tip the favor one way or the other til their both done but LeBron has the better career EFG% and TS%. Even his 3P% which was heavily criticized most of his career, is only 4% behind Kobe's all time.

In the playoffs per game Kobe is putting up 25, 5, 5 LeBron is putting up 28, 8,7.

20 players of the month for LeBron and 14 for Kobe.

Thats quite incredible. No doubt in my mind Lebron is the better player. But again, I guess I just need to see him play a couple more years.

BTW, I was just wondering about what Kobe can do better then Lebron right now and I've found the answer is nothing. He's better then Lebron in nothing currently.

I was initially thinking he might be the better 3 point shooter or mid range? Nope.

Lebron shot 33% from the 3 point line, Kobe was at 32.3%. Maybe long range 3's? Nope, Lebron shot 45% from 16-23 feet compared to Kobe shooting 38%. At this point in their careers, there isn't a single thing Kobe does better then Lebron. And yet people still try to compare them. Scoring? Lebron. Efficiency? Lebron. Passing? Lebron. Rebounding? Lebron. Defense? Lebron. Mid-range shooting? Lebron. Getting to the hoop? Lebron. 3 point shooting? Lebron.

Honestly, I have no clue what these Kobe fans are thinking when they say he's better then Lebron right now.

legalize
07-15-2011, 07:33 PM
He did an excellent job explaining that it wasn't bias that made his decision. Many of us share the same opinion of Hakeem/Timmy >Kobe.


Nobody? So Kobe is #1? If you're talking about this era, Duncan has constantly put together winning seasons and playoff appearances as the man on the Spurs squads. How has Kobe been any more impactful than Duncan has been?

Kobe has won 5 titles as the man and been to the finals 7 times in the 10 years of the 00's. Youre using the "as the man" part to discredit someone where credit is due. The early 00 Lakers were not Shaq's lakers. They were the Kobe/Shaq era. A great indication of how important and impact Kobe was on those teams should come from the fact that Kobe has proven he could win more without Shaq than SHaq can win without Kobe.

Duncan was great. One of the top 10 players to ever play without a doubt, but did he dominate his era more? Certainly not. Did he reach more finals? Certainly not. And whats this about championships being a "team accomplishment?" Last time I checked, bball is a team game. Everythings a "team accomplishment." Are MVPs considered an individual accomplishment? Cuz a player doesnt win the MVP unless he has a good team. Duncan was great but he hasnt done more than Kobe has in their respective careers. Give the guy his due. Hes been to the finals more than 50% of the seasons hes been in the league. That would qualify as more dominant.

And of course Kobe's #1 in this era. Nobody has won more, had more success and dominated more. Not Shaq and not Duncna.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-15-2011, 07:42 PM
Kobe has won 5 titles as the man and been to the finals 7 times in the 10 years of the 00's. Youre using the "as the man" part to discredit someone where credit is due. The early 00 Lakers were not Shaq's lakers. They were the Kobe/Shaq era. A great indication of how important and impact Kobe was on those teams should come from the fact that Kobe has proven he could win more without Shaq than SHaq can win without Kobe.

Duncan was great. One of the top 10 players to ever play without a doubt, but did he dominate his era more? Certainly not. Did he reach more finals? Certainly not. And whats this about championships being a "team accomplishment?" Last time I checked, bball is a team game. Everythings a "team accomplishment." Are MVPs considered an individual accomplishment? Cuz a player doesnt win the MVP unless he has a good team. Duncan was great but he hasnt done more than Kobe has in their respective careers. Give the guy his due. Hes been to the finals more than 50% of the seasons hes been in the league. That would qualify as more dominant.

And of course Kobe's #1 in this era. Nobody has won more, had more success and dominated more. Not Shaq and not Duncna.

So what you're essentially saying is that because Kobe got to more finals then he's better then everyone else?

Well, I don't know if you noticed but Derek Fisher has been on each one of Kobe's teams AND started at the PG position. So you could say Fisher is the best PG in the NBA because his teams have been to the Finals in 7 out of the 10 years. Is that what you're essentially telling me?

legalize
07-15-2011, 07:53 PM
So what you're essentially saying is that because Kobe got to more finals then he's better then everyone else?

Well, I don't know if you noticed but Derek Fisher has been on each one of Kobe's teams AND started at the PG position. So you could say Fisher is the best PG in the NBA because his teams have been to the Finals in 7 out of the 10 years. Is that what you're essentially telling me?

No thats not what Im saying at all. Kobe is better than anyone else because he dominated more than anyone else in terms of winning, as the man, as the franchise player. He had more success in his career as the man, as the franchise player than either Duncan or Hakeem. Its not just about rings. Fisher was never a franchise player thats why the same doesnt apply to Fisher. You understand the difference? Kobe just enjoyed more success during his career than Duncan or Hakeem. Its that simple. He simply had the much better career. Furthermore, both Duncan and Kobe had better careers than Bird and they should both be considered higher than Bird in all time rankings, and one day, once theyre retired, im sure they will be.

GhostfaceDrilla
07-15-2011, 08:00 PM
No thats not what Im saying at all. Kobe is better than anyone else because he dominated more than anyone else in terms of winning, as the man, as the franchise player. He had more success in his career as the man, as the franchise player than either Duncan or Hakeem. Its not just about rings. Fisher was never a franchise player thats why the same doesnt apply to Fisher. You understand the difference? Kobe just enjoyed more success during his career than Duncan or Hakeem. Its that simple. He simply had the much better career. Furthermore, both Duncan and Kobe had better careers than Bird and they should both be considered higher than Bird in all time rankings, and one day, once theyre retired, im sure they will be.

Larry Bird is still better than Kobe. Better shooter, passer, rebounder, tougher, etc...

Kobe does have one of the best work ethics of all time though. Kobe is about 10-13 for me.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-15-2011, 08:01 PM
No thats not what Im saying at all. Kobe is better than anyone else because he dominated more than anyone else in terms of winning, as the man, as the franchise player. He had more success in his career as the man, as the franchise player than either Duncan or Hakeem. Its not just about rings. Fisher was never a franchise player thats why the same doesnt apply to Fisher. You understand the difference? Kobe just enjoyed more success during his career than Duncan or Hakeem. Its that simple. He simply had the much better career. Furthermore, both Duncan and Kobe had better careers than Bird and they should both be considered higher than Bird in all time rankings, and one day, once theyre retired, im sure they will be.

Ok, so then in your opinion, Bill Russell is the GOAT? Because he had 11 rings as the man (well not really but thats everyone's opinion)

And just another question for you, how do you decide if a player is "the man"? Because most casual observers believe Shaq was "the man" in the first 3peat. After all, he won all 3 Finals MVPs, that should tell you something shouldn't it? At least using your criteria.

I personally don't agree at all with the way you rank players. It's basically 5>4>3>2 etc. in terms of rings for the all-time greats. Well some of these all-time greats had much better teams then others. Some of these all-time greats actually played with other all-time greats, such as the Shaq-Kobe duo.

Also, the Lakers of the last 2 years have been pretty stacked. So it's not like Kobe hasn't been fortunate.

Since you're so much into accolades and accomplishments, why does Kobe only have 1 MVP? (not that I put any stock into this kind of stuff) PS- Duncan has 2. Hakeem may have had more if it weren't for MJ.

210Don
07-15-2011, 08:14 PM
this thread disgust me.:puke:

Ebbs
07-15-2011, 08:17 PM
Also I would take Duncan over Kobe even though I voted Oscar because I think Duncan was the MVP of his team for most their success where you can argue either Shaq or Pau was better on the Lakers during their runs.

legalize
07-15-2011, 08:25 PM
Larry Bird is still better than Kobe. Better shooter, passer, rebounder, tougher, etc...

Kobe does have one of the best work ethics of all time though. Kobe is about 10-13 for me.

I can say the same about Kobe. Better foot work, better fundamentals, better overall scorer, much much better defender, better finisher, better post game, etc...Bird just never achieved the same amount of success with a great team.

Geargo Wallace
07-15-2011, 08:33 PM
I can say the same about Kobe. Better foot work, better fundamentals, better overall scorer, much much better defender, better finisher, better post game, etc...Bird just never achieved the same amount of success with a great team.

Everything you said pertaining to Bird's skills compared to Kobe's is quite arguable. Now there is a man named Magic, and a man named Kareem that also dominated during Bird's era (among other great players that dominated in the 80's). They (as in Magic and Kareem) were also ranked higher than him. Does that have any weight in your eyes? Or is it all Championship or bust?

Bird's 3 championships were quite impressive if you ask me. If luck or injuries never happened, Bird may have ended up with more. Heck, he may have even won a couple more chips as a second fiddle (like Kobe) if Len Bias never coked out to death.

NBAfan4life
07-15-2011, 08:53 PM
Ok, so then in your opinion, Bill Russell is the GOAT? Because he had 11 rings as the man (well not really but thats everyone's opinion)

And just another question for you, how do you decide if a player is "the man"? Because most casual observers believe Shaq was "the man" in the first 3peat. After all, he won all 3 Finals MVPs, that should tell you something shouldn't it? At least using your criteria.

I personally don't agree at all with the way you rank players. It's basically 5>4>3>2 etc. in terms of rings for the all-time greats. Well some of these all-time greats had much better teams then others. Some of these all-time greats actually played with other all-time greats, such as the Shaq-Kobe duo.

Also, the Lakers of the last 2 years have been pretty stacked. So it's not like Kobe hasn't been fortunate.

Since you're so much into accolades and accomplishments, why does Kobe only have 1 MVP? (not that I put any stock into this kind of stuff) PS- Duncan has 2. Hakeem may have had more if it weren't for MJ.

In that first 3 peat has there ever been a sidekick that put up number as good as Kobe? I'm being serious.

Kobe more than any other player gets his teammates used against him for his legacy. Shaq being one of the most dominant players ever wasn't able to win without Kobe or Wade who was playing at an amazing level.

Almost everyone seems to agree that Kobe is ranked in the top 15, yet his first three championships dont seem to count for anything because he had Shaq.

I understand that Kobe fanboys can be annoying, but discounting what he has done is getting out of hand. I voted Shaq in before Kobe just because Kobe has not matched him yet. He still has a chance but he hasn't surpassed him.

Longevity matters to me which is why I can see Dream at this point being higher than Kobe. I didn't vote that way but I understand it. Duncan is already finished. He came in after Kobe and has already done putting up anything that will enhance his legacy. Kobe is still doing it. That is why I have him higher in my alltime rankings.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-15-2011, 08:54 PM
Everything you said pertaining to Bird's skills compared to Kobe's is quite arguable. Now there is a man named Magic, and a man named Kareem that also dominated during Bird's era (among other great players that dominated in the 80's). They (as in Magic and Kareem) were also ranked higher than him. Does that have any weight in your eyes? Or is it all Championship or bust?

Bird's 3 championships were quite impressive if you ask me. If luck or injuries never happened, Bird may have ended up with more. Heck, he may have even won a couple more chips as a second fiddle (like Kobe) if Len Bias never coked out to death.

His rankings appear to just be are you the man? If so, 5 (Kobe) >4 (Duncan), so 5 is better. Or 4 is better then 3 so Duncan is better then Bird. Or 3 is > 2 so Bird is better then Hakeem. I'm assuming he thinks Bill Russel is the GOAT. Probably thinks Kareem and MJ are equal.

God, there's so many issues with ranking players that way. I can't even begin to start with how horrible a criteria he uses.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-15-2011, 08:59 PM
In that first 3 peat has there ever been a sidekick that put up number as good as Kobe? I'm being serious.

Kobe more than any other player gets his teammates used against him for his legacy. Shaq being one of the most dominant players ever wasn't able to win without Kobe or Wade who was playing at an amazing level.

Almost everyone seems to agree that Kobe is ranked in the top 15, yet his first three championships dont seem to count for anything because he had Shaq.

I understand that Kobe fanboys can be annoying, but discounting what he has done is getting out of hand. I voted Shaq in before Kobe just because Kobe has not matched him yet. He still has a chance but he hasn't surpassed him.

Longevity matters to me which is why I can see Dream at this point being higher than Kobe. I didn't vote that way but I understand it. Duncan is already finished. He came in after Kobe and has already done putting up anything that will enhance his legacy. Kobe is still doing it. That is why I have him higher in my alltime rankings.

I'm not trying to discount what he's done, but it is getting a bit annoying when people just continually point to Kobe's 5 rings or 7 finals in 10 years, etc. and say, "well debate over".

And my initial gripe had to do with the fact that that guy was saying there was no argument to be made for Hakeem or Duncan above Kobe, which I think is pretty stupid. I'm not saying an argument can't be made for Kobe. I'm saying it's ignorant to just assume that Hakeem/Duncan have no argument over Kobe.

As I said earlier, in my opinion, most of the all-time greats are VERY close and the order is like splitting hairs, with the exception being MJ.

Also, I disagree that Duncan is finished. I still think he'll be a productive player for a little while longer. He's no longer a superstar obviously but I don't think Kobe is either. Kobe started to show signs of age/decline last year too.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=duncati01&y1=2011&p2=bryanko01&y2=2011

Advanced stat wise, their numbers aren't that different.

NBAfan4life
07-15-2011, 09:19 PM
I'm not trying to discount what he's done, but it is getting a bit annoying when people just continually point to Kobe's 5 rings or 7 finals in 10 years, etc. and say, "well debate over".

And my initial gripe had to do with the fact that that guy was saying there was no argument to be made for Hakeem or Duncan above Kobe, which I think is pretty stupid. I'm not saying an argument can't be made for Kobe. I'm saying it's ignorant to just assume that Hakeem/Duncan have no argument over Kobe.

As I said earlier, in my opinion, most of the all-time greats are VERY close and the order is like splitting hairs, with the exception being MJ.

Also, I disagree that Duncan is finished. I still think he'll be a productive player for a little while longer. He's no longer a superstar obviously but I don't think Kobe is either. Kobe started to show signs of age/decline last year too.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=duncati01&y1=2011&p2=bryanko01&y2=2011

Advanced stat wise, their numbers aren't that different.

Their numbers are not similar at all for last year. Aging big man that were relatively healthy dont make turnarounds. Duncans numbers were way down last year. Kobe still had an all star year where as Duncan did not, even though he made it I think.

I get an argument can be made (more so for dream than duncan IMO). Anyways I would like to see your advance numbers for Bird if you do end up doing them.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-15-2011, 09:30 PM
Their numbers are not similar at all for last year. Aging big man that were relatively healthy dont make turnarounds. Duncans numbers were way down last year. Kobe still had an all star year where as Duncan did not, even though he made it I think.

I get an argument can be made (more so for dream than duncan IMO). Anyways I would like to see your advance numbers for Bird if you do end up doing them.

Personally, I think both will be productive players but neither will be that great. Kobe's been in the league 15 seasons and I think last year was the start of his rapid decline. His numbers definitely went down. And I think the biggest problem with Kobe is he still thinks he's the best player in the world, so he's going to have problems ceding control to guys like Bynum and Gasol. And I also think he's going to be injured again next year (the nagging injury type), especially with the amount of wear and tear he puts on his body. But maybe I'm just projecting too sharp of a decline for him.

I do plan on doing them for Bird. The big issue I have right now is that he's played both SF and PF in his career and I don't know which years he played SF vs. PF (I need to know this for the PER calculation). I could do his win share numbers though.

NBAfan4life
07-15-2011, 09:58 PM
Personally, I think both will be productive players but neither will be that great. Kobe's been in the league 15 seasons and I think last year was the start of his rapid decline. His numbers definitely went down. And I think the biggest problem with Kobe is he still thinks he's the best player in the world, so he's going to have problems ceding control to guys like Bynum and Gasol. And I also think he's going to be injured again next year (the nagging injury type), especially with the amount of wear and tear he puts on his body. But maybe I'm just projecting too sharp of a decline for him.

I do plan on doing them for Bird. The big issue I have right now is that he's played both SF and PF in his career and I don't know which years he played SF vs. PF (I need to know this for the PER calculation). I could do his win share numbers though.

I hope Kobe can still be a 20+ per game scorer for at least a couple more seasons. I wish he would be more of a distributor, but I'm dreaming. I'm not a delusional fan that thinks he will be competing for MVP next season.

legalize
07-15-2011, 10:07 PM
Everything you said pertaining to Bird's skills compared to Kobe's is quite arguable. Now there is a man named Magic, and a man named Kareem that also dominated during Bird's era (among other great players that dominated in the 80's). They (as in Magic and Kareem) were also ranked higher than him. Does that have any weight in your eyes? Or is it all Championship or bust?

Bird's 3 championships were quite impressive if you ask me. If luck or injuries never happened, Bird may have ended up with more. Heck, he may have even won a couple more chips as a second fiddle (like Kobe) if Len Bias never coked out to death.

In regards to Magic and Kareem, I never said Kobe was better than them. Kareem had as successful and dominant a career as MJ had. In my estimation, Kareem is clearly the greatest big man to ever play the game. But for me, I dont compare perimeter players to big men because its just not a feasible comparison.

In terms of Magic, their careers accomplishments and success are very very similar. A lot of Laker fans view either Kobe or Magic as the greatest Laker ever. Kobe has already surpassed most of Magic's records as a Laker and has brough them just as many championships. In the few years Kobe has left in the league, he could very easily surpass Magic as the greatest Laker and the better all time player. But for now, its too close to call. Bird's 3 championships were indeed remarkable. Any franchise player that carries his team to 3 championships is a remarkable player. Titles are extremely difficult to win, so winning 3 is something truly great. But there are no "what ifs" in sports. It makes no difference what would have happened, what should have happened or what could have happened. Bird's career is over and his accomplishment, titles and successes will never be more than they are now. In my estimation Kobe was a better basketball player than Bird. He was a better scorer, better defender, was just as clutch, and won more and dominated more than Bird.

You like to throw in the "second fiddle" argument a lot when it comes to Kobe. Its funny because Bird had 3 HOFers other than himself on his team, in their primes while he won his titles. Kobe was no second fiddle when it came to his titles. In fact, ive pointed out plenty of times, Kobe proved he can win more without Shaq than Shaq could win without Kobe. Shaq had plenty of opportunities to win in Orlando but got swept by Hakeem the only time he made it to the finals. The only time Shaq was at his best was when he played with Kobe. But lets not forget Kobe won more tiltes without Shaq than Shaq did without Kobe. That should say something about your "second fiddle" argument.

mightybosstone
07-15-2011, 10:08 PM
There are no "strong" arguments which put Hakeem or Duncan above Kobe when its clear Kobe has accomplished more, has been more successfull, and has been a greater individual player than both Hakeem and Duncan. These are all facts that are displayed through each one's career accomplishments and accolades. THeres no disputing that. All the PERs, and Win shares and other made up stats cannot dispute that. The fact that people are arguing and whining because KObe got 8th is bias towards him because his accomplishments and success say he is actually better than 8th.

Yes... it is disputable. That's what the whole point of these polls is. And don't tell me he's "accomplished more" based solely on titles. Robert Horry has more rings than Kobe and that doesn't make him a better player. And statistics CAN be used to dispute the talents of NBA players. That's why we have them. To say otherwise is completely ignorant...

legalize
07-15-2011, 10:23 PM
Yes... it is disputable. That's what the whole point of these polls is. And don't tell me he's "accomplished more" based solely on titles. Robert Horry has more rings than Kobe and that doesn't make him a better player. And statistics CAN be used to dispute the talents of NBA players. That's why we have them. To say otherwise is completely ignorant...

No..its not based solely on titles that hes accomplished more. Its titles as well as accolades, achievements, awards, records, STATS and basically the totality of the circumstances. Nobody said that championships are all we need to look at.

And again, Horry is irrelevant to this argument because he was never a franchise player leading his teams to titles. You cannot compare players like Horry or Fisher to players like Magic, Kobe, Bird. There no logical coorelation. Championships alone dont make one player greater than the next. But championships coupled with all the other factors need to be taken into consideration. And when one player has achieved more and dominated more based on his overall resume, you cannot put a lesser accomplished player ahead of him.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-15-2011, 10:32 PM
No..its not based solely on titles that hes accomplished more. Its titles as well as accolades, achievements, awards, records, STATS and basically the totality of the circumstances. Nobody said that championships are all we need to look at.

And again, Horry is irrelevant to this argument because he was never a franchise player leading his teams to titles. You cannot compare players like Horry or Fisher to players like Magic, Kobe, Bird. There no logical coorelation. Championships alone dont make one player greater than the next. But championships coupled with all the other factors need to be taken into consideration. And when one player has achieved more and dominated more based on his overall resume, you cannot put a lesser accomplished player ahead of him.

What stats do you use? Do you at least realize the flaws that come with looking at points per game? Because it seems to me like you're only looking at Kobe's points per game and saying "Wow".

You may not like advanced stats but the basic advanced stats like TS%, eFG%, Usg% etc. are much better then the stats you're probably using. And THAT is indisputable. Why? Because these stats can be explained to a toddler. They're very simple. And the concepts behind them are very simple.

Geargo Wallace
07-15-2011, 10:35 PM
In regards to Magic and Kareem, I never said Kobe was better than them. Kareem had as successful and dominant a career as MJ had. In my estimation, Kareem is clearly the greatest big man to ever play the game. But for me, I dont compare perimeter players to big men because its just not a feasible comparison.

In terms of Magic, their careers accomplishments and success are very very similar. A lot of Laker fans view either Kobe or Magic as the greatest Laker ever. Kobe has already surpassed most of Magic's records as a Laker and has brough them just as many championships. In the few years Kobe has left in the league, he could very easily surpass Magic as the greatest Laker and the better all time player. But for now, its too close to call. Bird's 3 championships were indeed remarkable. Any franchise player that carries his team to 3 championships is a remarkable player. Titles are extremely difficult to win, so winning 3 is something truly great. But there are no "what ifs" in sports. It makes no difference what would have happened, what should have happened or what could have happened. Bird's career is over and his accomplishment, titles and successes will never be more than they are now. In my estimation Kobe was a better basketball player than Bird. He was a better scorer, better defender, was just as clutch, and won more and dominated more than Bird.

You like to throw in the "second fiddle" argument a lot when it comes to Kobe. Its funny because Bird had 3 HOFers other than himself on his team, in their primes while he won his titles. Kobe was no second fiddle when it came to his titles. In fact, ive pointed out plenty of times, Kobe proved he can win more without Shaq than Shaq could win without Kobe. Shaq had plenty of opportunities to win in Orlando but got swept by Hakeem the only time he made it to the finals. The only time Shaq was at his best was when he played with Kobe. But lets not forget Kobe won more tiltes without Shaq than Shaq did without Kobe. That should say something about your "second fiddle" argument.

To clarify, I was pointing out that Bird had some of the stiffest competition for championships. 3 chips in the 80's is tough ****.

The whole point of the "what if" was to show how one could be more fortunate in their career if it weren't for some circumstances. One championship can make one's career be viewed entirely different by most fans. Do championships necessarily make someone more of a player? Nope. Bird is a top 10 player with his 3 chips? Yes. If Bird were to win a couple more because of Len Bias' immediate help, does it make Bird any greater as a player? Nope. If Kobe lost in his last finals to the Celtics, do you still see him greater than Tim Duncan, or Hakeem?

I wouldn't attribute Shaq being at his best entirely to Kobe's presence. I would say it was more about timing. Shaq was in his prime as a player, and Kobe was mature enough to perform at the highest level. Also give Kobe's teammates some time to be called HOFers. I'm sure Pau will go down as one. Who knows if LO or AB will one day. Shaq was a top 10er on this list. We'll see how high McHale, Parish, Walton, and DJ get ranked.

And no. Kobe did not dominate more than Bird did. 3 straight MVP's is dominance. 4x MVP runner up is dominance. This was in the decade of Moses, Kareem, Michael, Magic and Dr. J's MVP years. There's a reason why Bird was constantly being called "the best all around player in the NBA."

Bruno
07-15-2011, 11:30 PM
I took Duncan.

legalize
07-15-2011, 11:31 PM
To clarify, I was pointing out that Bird had some of the stiffest competition for championships. 3 chips in the 80's is tough ****.

The whole point of the "what if" was to show how one could be more fortunate in their career if it weren't for some circumstances. One championship can make one's career be viewed entirely different by most fans. Do championships necessarily make someone more of a player? Nope. Bird is a top 10 player with his 3 chips? Yes. If Bird were to win a couple more because of Len Bias' immediate help, does it make Bird any greater as a player? Nope. If Kobe lost in his last finals to the Celtics, do you still see him greater than Tim Duncan, or Hakeem?

I wouldn't attribute Shaq being at his best entirely to Kobe's presence. I would say it was more about timing. Shaq was in his prime as a player, and Kobe was mature enough to perform at the highest level. Also give Kobe's teammates some time to be called HOFers. I'm sure Pau will go down as one. Who knows if LO or AB will one day. Shaq was a top 10er on this list. We'll see how high McHale, Parish, Walton, and DJ get ranked.

And no. Kobe did not dominate more than Bird did. 3 straight MVP's is dominance. 4x MVP runner up is dominance. This was in the decade of Moses, Kareem, Michael, Magic and Dr. J's MVP years. There's a reason why Bird was constantly being called "the best all around player in the NBA."

The 80's was a touch decade but the 00s had much more complete and better teams than teh 80s did. While the 80s had great players, the 00s had their fair share of great players, including at least 3 of the top 10 players of all time in their primes (shaq, kob, Timmy), including players like J Kidd, LBJ, Wade, KG, Pierce, Dwight, etc... And yes Bird did win 3 straight MVPs but no way was he more of a dominant player than a guy like Shaq who only won ONE MVP. MVPs are voted on by the media, and is most certainly not a conclusive way to jusge a players greatness.

And Yes, one championship does make a HUGE difference. Ask Karl Malone, and Charles Barkely that. The fact of the matter is Bird was able to win 3. Which is a remarkable achievement, but the fact that he could have won more if certain things happened doesnt change teh fact that he will forever have 3. Look youre entitled to your opinion as am I. But the facts are facts and one's resume is more impressive than the other's. Thats all Im saying. Subjectively you might think Bird is better than Kobe, or Duncan is better than Kobe, but objectively, Kobe has just simply had a better career.

Bruno
07-15-2011, 11:46 PM
Nominate Pippen.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-16-2011, 01:26 AM
Nominate Dwight Howard and TMac

LakersMaster24
07-16-2011, 01:41 AM
I nominate Paul Pierce. Might sound crazy, but the guy is a Top 3 Celtic of All-Time, I think he deserves to be nominated.

NYKalltheway
07-16-2011, 05:27 AM
I nominate Paul Pierce. Might sound crazy, but the guy is a Top 3 Celtic of All-Time, I think he deserves to be nominated.


Bill Russell
Larry Bird
John Havlicek
Bob Cousy
Kevin McHale

You can debate top 5, top 3 is too much with Havlicek around

tredigs
07-16-2011, 10:43 AM
Bill Russell
Larry Bird
John Havlicek
Bob Cousy
Kevin McHale

You can debate top 5, top 3 is too much with Havlicek around

I'd say Cowens has a clear 1 up on Pierce in the Celtic All Time rankings too, just given the fact that he was an MVP (other accolades aside). Highest you could debate Pierce is a top 6 or 7 Celtic imo.

And honestly, Garnett was the one who completely transformed that '08 team and led them to the title, so if you throw in his Defensive POY, multiple all stars/All-Defensive teams and All NBA team with Boston, he himself gives Paul a run for his money as an All Time great Celtic in just his 4 years there.

DODGERS&LAKERS
07-16-2011, 12:11 PM
I got Duncan. He has better numbers, was the anchor of the defense and had a better defensive rating than even the great Dream, won titles in an era where there were more competion at the top. Dream won when talent was spread across the league, but no team except the Bulls had more than 2 good players on the team. Ewing was alone in New York, Admiral had no help in San Antonio, Mourning had no one in Charlotte, Shaq had a young Penny, and it was pretty much like that for everyone in the league. One good to great player, and a bunch of role players around him. So even though Dream seemed to win a title with no help in 04, he beat teams that were not very talented either.

Duncan on the other hand had to go up against teams that loaded up on talent. The bottom of the league may have not been as talented, but the top of the league was much better than the 90's

Swashcuff
07-16-2011, 12:23 PM
I got Duncan. He has better numbers, was the anchor of the defense and had a better defensive rating than even the great Dream, won titles in an era where there were more competion at the top. Dream won when talent was spread across the league, but no team except the Bulls had more than 2 good players on the team. Ewing was alone in New York, Admiral had no help in San Antonio, Mourning had no one in Charlotte, Shaq had a young Penny, and it was pretty much like that for everyone in the league. One good to great player, and a bunch of role players around him. So even though Dream seemed to win a title with no help in 04, he beat teams that were not very talented either.

Duncan on the other hand had to go up against teams that loaded up on talent. The bottom of the league may have not been as talented, but the top of the league was much better than the 90's

When will you guys understand that talent doesn't win Championships?

Many view that Knicks team as one of if not the greatest defensive team of all time. Not because a team is less talented that means that they aren't a top quality team.

GhostfaceDrilla
07-16-2011, 01:37 PM
Oscar Robertson. He averaged a triple double and was fractions of points away a few other times. Big O, Hakeem, and Duncan are the next 3 up. Dirk IS in the top 20 so hopefully he gets voted in. If LeBron gets voted in before Dirk, I think I will scream.

GhostfaceDrilla
07-16-2011, 01:39 PM
I nominate Paul Pierce. Might sound crazy, but the guy is a Top 3 Celtic of All-Time, I think he deserves to be nominated.

Bill Russell? Larry Bird? Kevin McHale? John Havlicek? Bob Cousy?

legalize
07-16-2011, 01:57 PM
Oscar Robertson. He averaged a triple double and was fractions of points away a few other times. Big O, Hakeem, and Duncan are the next 3 up. Dirk IS in the top 20 so hopefully he gets voted in. If LeBron gets voted in before Dirk, I think I will scream.

While the Big O averaged a triple double for a season, it did not translate into much success for him. One title playing with Kareem is not enough to move up the pedestal ahead of guys like Duncan and Hakeem.

LAKERMANIA
07-16-2011, 02:47 PM
While the Big O averaged a triple double for a season, it did not translate into much success for him. One title playing with Kareem is not enough to move up the pedestal ahead of guys like Duncan and Hakeem.

Exactly, he was and still is VERY overrated

astrosmaniac
07-16-2011, 03:19 PM
I got Duncan. He has better numbers, was the anchor of the defense and had a better defensive rating than even the great Dream, won titles in an era where there were more competion at the top. Dream won when talent was spread across the league, but no team except the Bulls had more than 2 good players on the team. Ewing was alone in New York, Admiral had no help in San Antonio, Mourning had no one in Charlotte, Shaq had a young Penny, and it was pretty much like that for everyone in the league. One good to great player, and a bunch of role players around him. So even though Dream seemed to win a title with no help in 04, he beat teams that were not very talented either.

Duncan on the other hand had to go up against teams that loaded up on talent. The bottom of the league may have not been as talented, but the top of the league was much better than the 90's

As a mavs fan you should understand the best team isn't always the most talented (mavs-heat is the perfect example). Hakeem went through some of the best teams of the last 25 years on his way tohis titles.

LA_Raiders
07-16-2011, 03:32 PM
Dont know for sure Duncan & Dream are very close, so ships make the tie break

TD #9

kingbrentg
07-16-2011, 06:02 PM
OP request. On to the next.