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Mile High Champ
07-14-2011, 09:25 AM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.

2011 Off Season SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Paul Pierce
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)



2010 Off Season SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Paul Pierce
5) Danny Granger
6) Gerald Wallace
7) Andre Iguodala
8) Rudy Gay
9) Luol Deng
10) Ron Artest

2009 Off Season SF Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Carmelo Anthony
3) Kevin Durant
4) Paul Pierce
5) Danny Granger
6) Andre Iguodala
7) Caron Butler
8) Hedo Turkoglu
9) Ron Artest
10) Stephen Jackson

2008 Off-Season SF rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Paul Pierce
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Caron Butler
5) Ron Artest
6) Shawn Marion
7) Josh Smith
8) Richard Jefferson
9) Lamar Odom
10) Tayshaun Prince

Mile High Champ
07-14-2011, 09:27 AM
Lets get voting!

NYKalltheway
07-14-2011, 09:34 AM
Iguodala imo. If he scores more and improves his jump shots, he's a top 10-15 player. Right now I got him at around #30-35

ddhulett
07-14-2011, 09:34 AM
This one should be easy...Danny Granger!

Khalifa21
07-14-2011, 09:37 AM
I got Danny Granger here.

gsgs49
07-14-2011, 09:37 AM
Iggy here.

Mikeleafs
07-14-2011, 09:37 AM
Rudy Rudy Rudy!!

Slimsim
07-14-2011, 09:41 AM
iggy

sixer04fan
07-14-2011, 09:49 AM
Iggy. He's not a good scorer, but he does everything else better than just about everyone.

GoPacers33
07-14-2011, 09:51 AM
how can it not be Granger

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 09:59 AM
I got Andre Iguodala here and this is why

Basic stats as compared to the next 5 best players IMO

Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Luol Deng 2010-11 25 82 82 39.1 6.5 14.1 .460 1.4 4.1 .345 3.1 4.1 .753 1.4 4.4 5.8 2.8 1.0 0.6 1.9 2.0 17.4
Rudy Gay 2010-11 24 54 54 39.9 7.6 16.1 .471 1.1 2.7 .396 3.6 4.5 .805 1.5 4.7 6.2 2.8 1.7 1.1 2.5 2.4 19.8
Danny Granger 2010-11 27 79 79 35.0 6.8 15.9 .425 2.0 5.2 .386 5.0 5.9 .848 1.1 4.3 5.4 2.6 1.1 0.8 2.6 2.7 20.5
A Iguodala 2010-11 27 67 67 36.9 5.0 11.3 .445 0.9 2.7 .337 3.1 4.5 .693 0.9 4.9 5.8 6.3 1.5 0.6 2.1 1.6 14.1
G Wallace 2010-11 28 71 63 37.9 5.4 12.0 .454 0.9 2.6 .333 3.9 5.3 .746 1.6 6.5 8.0 2.4 1.5 0.9 2.1 2.6 15.7

While Iggy doesn't have the flashiest #s and clearly isn't the best scorer of the bunch his play making ability makes up for his lack of offensive production in terms of scoring.

Advanced


Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
Luol Deng 2010-11 25 82 3208 15.5 .549 .510 4.4 12.8 8.7 11.9 1.3 1.1 10.7 20.9 111 102 4.7 5.2 9.9 0.149
Rudy Gay 2010-11 24 54 2152 17.8 .548 .503 4.5 14.2 9.3 11.6 2.2 2.2 12.2 23.3 108 105 2.7 2.8 5.5 0.123
Danny Granger 2010-11 27 79 2763 17.8 .554 .487 3.5 13.5 8.5 13.0 1.6 1.6 12.3 26.7 107 106 3.7 3.2 6.9 0.120
A Iguodala 2010-11 27 67 2469 17.3 .530 .486 2.8 15.2 9.0 26.4 2.1 1.2 13.4 19.2 110 104 3.3 3.4 6.7 0.130
G Wallace 2010-11 28 71 2693 16.2 .548 .490 4.9 21.0 12.8 10.9 2.1 1.9 13.0 20.3 107 105 2.6 3.6 6.2 0.111

In terms of WS/48 Iggy ranks 2nd only to Deng (a huge part of Deng's being better than Iggy's is the fact that he plays for a better defensive and offensive team take away that and they'd be equals) while Iggy is right up there with Gay and Granger in PER he betters Wallace and Deng.

Again this shows how complete a player Iggy really is.

Statistical +/-

Player G Min OSPM DSPM SPM
Andre Iguodala 67 2469 1.39 1.65 3.04
Danny Granger 79 2763 2.59 0.04 2.63
Gerald Wallace 71 2693 0.21 2.33 2.53
Rudy Gay 54 2152 1.44 0.91 2.35
Luol Deng 82 3208 1.14 0.55 1.60

In terms of SPM Iggy ranks #1, that's really no surprise see that he is the most valuable two way player of the bunch. He impacts his team's overall effectiveness/efficient more than any other SF left on the board. These are some of the things that don't show up in the box score or among more common advanced stats.

His balance between OSPM (offenseive statistical +/-) and DSPM (defensive statistical +/-) is by far better than anyone else proving again his worth as a two way player being better that that of the other guys on here.


Player tm Min Eff% eWins e484
Luol Deng Chi 39 .540 8.5 1.28
Danny Granger Ind 35 .544 8.4 1.47
Andre Iguodala Phi 37 .520 7.0 1.38

In terms of eWins and e484 (win-producing) rate (similar to WS/48) Granger is arguably the most valuable. Deng however benefited in terms of eWins because of the fact that he played more minutes in more games than both Iggy and Granger. Iggy's e484 (which I view as a better metric than eWins to gauge a player's worth) is better than that of Deng and on that basis could be argued as better overall.

Note: Wallace and Gay both did not rank in the top 50 in the league so I was unable to get their results.

Lastly 82games.com Simple Rating System and Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production (for those who may want to argue that Deng or Wallace is better defensive that Iggy despite the evidence already posted)
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/Swashcuff/Basketball/2011SFs.jpg

In terms of Simple Rating Iggy is unquestionably the best of the bunch, proving his overall value to his team when he's on the floor to be higher than that of any other player on the poll.

As for Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production Iggy features the best #s not only of the players left but of all SFs this past season (better than LeBron even). I see no argument for any SF being more valuable on defense than Andre Iguodala.

All and all Iggy is the most valuable two way player of all the players left. He may not be the scorer that the other players are but his play-making ability makes up for that gap IMO.

There is a reason why he's the only one of the players left that took home any hardware this off season (All NBA Defensive 2nd Team which should have been a first team).

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 10:00 AM
how can it not be Granger

Because Iggy's better.

Granger got 6 IMO.

roshan3ai
07-14-2011, 10:03 AM
:laugh2: Why is CJ Miles on the list but not Gallinari?

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 10:06 AM
:laugh2: Why is CJ Miles on the list but not Gallinari?

Wait till Kashmir see's that he's gonna :bang: then :puke:

ManRam
07-14-2011, 10:07 AM
I went Iggy. More simplistically that what Swash wrote (great work)...

I just think his mix of defense, passing and rebounding is too solid. I thought he was the best wing defender in the NBA this past season. Not as great of a scorer as the rest, but he's a better all-around player IMO.

Master Mind
07-14-2011, 10:10 AM
Granger

theheatles
07-14-2011, 10:36 AM
i like granger here because he's the best all around scorer along with him being the only #1 offensive option on this poll, i think granger and gay still have more room to grow too while every1 else on this list is what u seen is what ur going to get

ILMindState
07-14-2011, 10:37 AM
Well done Swashcuff. I can't not vote for Iggy after reading that. Tough to chose between that group of 5 they are so close.

jp611
07-14-2011, 10:44 AM
Iggy easily

LakersIn5
07-14-2011, 10:58 AM
yeah i know ron artest sucks but i think that he is still better than cj miles or dorrell wright if not just as good.

Gibby23
07-14-2011, 11:01 AM
Gay is better than Iggy. Even by looking at advanced stats you can make a case for Gay.

Da Knicks
07-14-2011, 11:01 AM
Gallinari

LTBaByyy
07-14-2011, 11:03 AM
Rudy Gay easily for me.

LTBaByyy
07-14-2011, 11:04 AM
Gay is better than Iggy. Even by looking at advanced stats you can make a case for Gay.

:clap:

It should be Rudy Gay

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 11:06 AM
Gay is better than Iggy. Even by looking at advanced stats you can make a case for Gay.

What advanced stats are you looking at? TS% and eFG%? Because there's nothing else that could be argued in Gay's favour.

aussie
07-14-2011, 11:07 AM
where is ariza :mad:

Gibby23
07-14-2011, 11:15 AM
What advanced stats are you looking at? TS% and eFG%? Because there's nothing else that could be argued in Gay's favour.

The ones you posted;

TS%, eFG%, RB%, stl%, blk%, to%, and he has a better PER.

The WS would have been about the same if gay would have played 13 more games.

Crackadalic
07-14-2011, 11:15 AM
Iggy but gallo should be on this list. I mean Butler barely played and CJ Miles? Really?

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 11:25 AM
The ones you posted;

TS%, eFG%, RB%, stl%, blk%, to%, and he has a better PER.

The WS would have been about the same if gay would have played 13 more games.

Oh you mean MARGINAL stats?

TRB%, STL%, BLK%, TO% and PER are all separated by decimal points. If you actually read into the stats you would understand their meaning.

As far as WS... WS/48 are a MUCH better metric for evaluating a player's true overall worth. To say something like IF he played 13 more games is a bit confusing? I mean what if his productivity didn't remain the same in those 13 games. What if Andre Iguodala played more minutes? What if Andre Iguodala played for a better team (or at least the Grizz).

And again those weren't the only stats I posted.. Did you not pay attention tot eh SPM, eWins, eWins/484 and SRtg. None of those #s are marginal or separated by minute decimal points. You need to put the stats in context, apparently I didn't do a good enough of a job explain that to you guys earlier.

Hawkeye15
07-14-2011, 11:25 AM
I got Andre Iguodala here and this is why

Basic stats as compared to the next 5 best players IMO

Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Luol Deng 2010-11 25 82 82 39.1 6.5 14.1 .460 1.4 4.1 .345 3.1 4.1 .753 1.4 4.4 5.8 2.8 1.0 0.6 1.9 2.0 17.4
Rudy Gay 2010-11 24 54 54 39.9 7.6 16.1 .471 1.1 2.7 .396 3.6 4.5 .805 1.5 4.7 6.2 2.8 1.7 1.1 2.5 2.4 19.8
Danny Granger 2010-11 27 79 79 35.0 6.8 15.9 .425 2.0 5.2 .386 5.0 5.9 .848 1.1 4.3 5.4 2.6 1.1 0.8 2.6 2.7 20.5
A Iguodala 2010-11 27 67 67 36.9 5.0 11.3 .445 0.9 2.7 .337 3.1 4.5 .693 0.9 4.9 5.8 6.3 1.5 0.6 2.1 1.6 14.1
G Wallace 2010-11 28 71 63 37.9 5.4 12.0 .454 0.9 2.6 .333 3.9 5.3 .746 1.6 6.5 8.0 2.4 1.5 0.9 2.1 2.6 15.7

While Iggy doesn't have the flashiest #s and clearly isn't the best scorer of the bunch his play making ability makes up for his lack of offensive production in terms of scoring.

Advanced


Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
Luol Deng 2010-11 25 82 3208 15.5 .549 .510 4.4 12.8 8.7 11.9 1.3 1.1 10.7 20.9 111 102 4.7 5.2 9.9 0.149
Rudy Gay 2010-11 24 54 2152 17.8 .548 .503 4.5 14.2 9.3 11.6 2.2 2.2 12.2 23.3 108 105 2.7 2.8 5.5 0.123
Danny Granger 2010-11 27 79 2763 17.8 .554 .487 3.5 13.5 8.5 13.0 1.6 1.6 12.3 26.7 107 106 3.7 3.2 6.9 0.120
A Iguodala 2010-11 27 67 2469 17.3 .530 .486 2.8 15.2 9.0 26.4 2.1 1.2 13.4 19.2 110 104 3.3 3.4 6.7 0.130
G Wallace 2010-11 28 71 2693 16.2 .548 .490 4.9 21.0 12.8 10.9 2.1 1.9 13.0 20.3 107 105 2.6 3.6 6.2 0.111

In terms of WS/48 Iggy ranks 2nd only to Deng (a huge part of Deng's being better than Iggy's is the fact that he plays for a better defensive and offensive team take away that and they'd be equals) while Iggy is right up there with Gay and Granger in PER he betters Wallace and Deng.

Again this shows how complete a player Iggy really is.

Statistical +/-

Player G Min OSPM DSPM SPM
Andre Iguodala 67 2469 1.39 1.65 3.04
Danny Granger 79 2763 2.59 0.04 2.63
Gerald Wallace 71 2693 0.21 2.33 2.53
Rudy Gay 54 2152 1.44 0.91 2.35
Luol Deng 82 3208 1.14 0.55 1.60

In terms of SPM Iggy ranks #1, that's really no surprise see that he is the most valuable two way player of the bunch. He impacts his team's overall effectiveness/efficient more than any other SF left on the board. These are some of the things that don't show up in the box score or among more common advanced stats.

His balance between OSPM (offenseive statistical +/-) and DSPM (defensive statistical +/-) is by far better than anyone else proving again his worth as a two way player being better that that of the other guys on here.


Player tm Min Eff% eWins e484
Luol Deng Chi 39 .540 8.5 1.28
Danny Granger Ind 35 .544 8.4 1.47
Andre Iguodala Phi 37 .520 7.0 1.38

In terms of eWins and e484 (win-producing) rate (similar to WS/48) Granger is arguably the most valuable. Deng however benefited in terms of eWins because of the fact that he played more minutes in more games than both Iggy and Granger. Iggy's e484 (which I view as a better metric than eWins to gauge a player's worth) is better than that of Deng and on that basis could be argued as better overall.

Note: Wallace and Gay both did not rank in the top 50 in the league so I was unable to get their results.

Lastly 82games.com Simple Rating System and Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production (for those who may want to argue that Deng or Wallace is better defensive that Iggy despite the evidence already posted)
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/Swashcuff/Basketball/2011SFs.jpg

In terms of Simple Rating Iggy is unquestionably the best of the bunch, proving his overall value to his team when he's on the floor to be higher than that of any other player on the poll.

As for Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production Iggy features the best #s not only of the players left but of all SFs this past season (better than LeBron even). I see no argument for any SF being more valuable on defense than Andre Iguodala.

All and all Iggy is the most valuable two way player of all the players left. He may not be the scorer that the other players are but his play-making ability makes up for that gap IMO.

There is a reason why he's the only one of the players left that took home any hardware this off season (All NBA Defensive 2nd Team which should have been a first team).

perfectly put. Iggy is the best wing defender in the NBA, and is also a legit offensive player.

Gibby23
07-14-2011, 11:31 AM
Oh you mean MARGINAL stats?

TRB%, STL%, BLK%, TO% and PER are all separated by decimal points. If you actually read into the stats you would understand their meaning.

As far as WS... WS/48 are a MUCH better metric for evaluating a player's true overall worth. To say something like IF he played 13 more games is a bit confusing? I mean what if his productivity didn't remain the same in those 13 games. What if Andre Iguodala played more minutes? What if Andre Iguodala played for a better team (or at least the Grizz).

And again those weren't the only stats I posted.. Did you not pay attention tot eh SPM, eWins, eWins/484 and SRtg. None of those #s are marginal or separated by minute decimal points. You need to put the stats in context, apparently I didn't do a good enough of a job explain that to you guys earlier.


Thats why Im not a big fan of advanced stats. if you watch the two play you can see Gay is a better scorer, shooter, can get his own shot almost at a superstar level, better rebounder, and he is a pretty good defender. If Im a GM and I had a pick between those 2, I would take Gay and so would most NBA GM's.

LTBaByyy
07-14-2011, 11:35 AM
Rudy Gay is #5

Yall know how good the Grizzlies are right? Well Rudy is their #1 option!! Over Randolph and Gasol.

Remember this anyone??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRC2_CqQrek&feature=related

Avenged
07-14-2011, 11:36 AM
I voted for Gay on accident! Not that it matters but if it's close towards the end, change my vote to Deng. :)

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 11:41 AM
Rudy Gay is #5

Yall know how good the Grizzlies are right? Well Rudy is their #1 option!! Over Randolph and Gasol.

Remember this anyone??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRC2_CqQrek&feature=related

You do know the Grizzlies played better when Rudy went down right?

ChiTownPacerFan
07-14-2011, 11:51 AM
Anyone who has Granger here does not watch the Pacers play. Granger doesn't even make my top 10.

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Anthony
4. Pierce
5. Iggy
6. Gay
7. Deng
8. Wallace
9. Butler
10. Batum

Granger could potentially go in the 10 spot, but honestly, Batum is essentially a better version of Granger. What can Granger do (besides take more shots) that Batum can't?

LTBaByyy
07-14-2011, 11:53 AM
You do know the Grizzlies played better when Rudy went down right?

That had nothing to do with Rudy Gay???? The reasons they got better was:

1) They traded for Battier (Defense)

2) They started Tony Allen at SG (OJ and Young started at the SG the beginning half of the season)

Tony Allen Started 31 games, how many games did Gay miss?? 28 :)

So dont blame it on Rudy!!! Battier and Allen started to play amazing and stepped up, but its not a down on Rudy Gay. Do you know how many of those wins Rudy Gay won for the Grizzlies???? Go check all the 4th quarters

If the line up was:

Conley
Allen
Gay
Randolph
Gasol

At the beginning of the season!!!!! They would have been playing like the playoffs or even better!

ChiTownPacerFan
07-14-2011, 11:53 AM
You do know the Grizzlies played better when Rudy went down right?

False. Memphis was 12-3 in the 15 games leading up to Gay's injury. The notion that the team played better without him is idiotic. They started playing well considerably before Gay got hurt.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 11:55 AM
Thats why Im not a big fan of advanced stats. if you watch the two play you can see Gay is a better scorer, shooter, can get his own shot almost at a superstar level, better rebounder, and he is a pretty good defender. If Im a GM and I had a pick between those 2, I would take Gay and so would most NBA GM's.

If you're not a fan of advanced stats then why make that your argument earlier? :confused:

Iggy is a worlds better defender, an equal if rebounder (really are were going to call someone who has .2 of a TRB% better?) Iggy facilitates better than any player his size not named LeBron James and in terms of passing efficiency last season he was up there with Magic Johnson for players 6'6 taller with a 6.0 Pure Point Rating that betters even LeBron himself. Iggy also viewed as a great leader and extremely understanding of his role (not my words but the words of Coach K).

My eyes tell me that overall he brings more to the table than Gay and which is why the Grizz actually played better when he went down.

I honestly don't think most GMs would take Rudy over Iggy. It all depends on what their team's needs are.

ChiTownPacerFan
07-14-2011, 12:00 PM
As for Iggy vs. Gay, they are both good enough to be the second best player on a championship team, but neither is really a franchise guy. It's splitting hairs to rank them, but I view a lock-down defender as more of a commodity than a wing scorer, so I have Iggy here.

Avenged
07-14-2011, 12:01 PM
Went with Deng (despite the vote) since he he was a more efficient shooter and lead Iggy and Gay in Win Shares and WS/48. Not to mention he was probably the Bulls best defender despite the majority thinking other wise.

Deng also outplayed Iggy in the playoffs while they went up against the same team (Miami).



Deng Iggy
Game 1 TS 64% Game 1 TS 28%
Game 2 TS 40% Game 2 TS 28%
Game 3 TS 53% Game 3 TS 42%
Game 4 TS 59% Game 4 TS 54%
Game 5 TS 46% Game 5 TS 69%


Iggy PTS - 4, 5, 10, 16, 22.
Deng PTS - 21, 13, 14, 20, 18 on better shooting percentages as well.

And although Lebron was pretty good in the playoffs despite his 4th quarter Finals performances, he was held less efficient due to Deng and the Bulls defense as compared to when the best wing defender in the league matched-up against him.

Used this 1 series because it was the only one Iggy was a part of.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 12:02 PM
False. Memphis was 12-3 in the 15 games leading up to Gay's injury. The notion that the team played better without him is idiotic. They started playing well considerably before Gay got hurt.

With Gay in the line-up the Grizz were 30 - 24 good enough for a .556 winning %.

Without Gay in the line-up the Grizz were 16 - 12 good enough for a .571 winning %.

Also do you want to know the reason for their 12-3 record? TONY ALLEN. Tony Allen being inserted into the starting line-up and finally starting to find his niche in the times he came off the bench had a huge part to play in the Grizz starting and continuing to play better ball. They were a better defensive team ten fold when Rudy was out and Allen started.

LakersIn5
07-14-2011, 12:02 PM
I voted for the rude gay

Gibby23
07-14-2011, 12:02 PM
If you're not a fan of advanced stats then why make that your argument earlier? :confused:

Iggy is a worlds better defender, an equal if rebounder (really are were going to call someone who has .2 of a TRB% better?) Iggy facilitates better than any player his size not named LeBron James and in terms of passing efficiency last season he was up there with Magic Johnson for players 6'6 taller with a 6.0 Pure Point Rating that betters even LeBron himself. Iggy also viewed as a great leader and extremely understanding of his role (not my words but the words of Coach K).

My eyes tell me that overall he brings more to the table than Gay and which is why the Grizz actually played better when he went down. I honestly don't think most GMs would take Rudy over Iggy. It all depends on what their team's needs are.

They didn't play better, that is false.

Iggy is a good defender but he doesn't do enough to cross out a good offensive player. Rudy Gay can do enough to go toe to toe with the best scorers at his position and still hold his own on D, he may not shut down the other guy, but he isn't getting shut down either. Iggy can be a non factor at times on offense and you don't see that with Gay. The same thing with deng to an extent, he plays good D, but will also make the other man guard him because he can shoot.

GhostfaceDrilla
07-14-2011, 12:03 PM
Danny Granger.

Gibby23
07-14-2011, 12:04 PM
With Gay in the line-up the Grizz were 30 - 24 good enough for a .556 winning %.

Without Gay in the line-up the Grizz were 16 - 12 good enough for a .571 winning %.

Also do you want to know the reason for their 12-3 record? TONY ALLEN. Tony Allen being inserted into the starting line-up and finally starting to find his niche in the times he came off the bench had a huge part to play in the Grizz starting and continuing to play better ball. They were a better defensive team ten fold when Rudy was out and Allen started.

They were playing better when Gay went down, they were like 15-3 in the last 18 games.

Hester23Jordan
07-14-2011, 12:04 PM
I believe Iggy is the best passer of the bunch, but I think Deng, Granger, and Gay all had a better season than Iggy.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 12:05 PM
As for Iggy vs. Gay, they are both good enough to be the second best player on a championship team, but neither is really a franchise guy. It's splitting hairs to rank them, but I view a lock-down defender as more of a commodity than a wing scorer, so I have Iggy here.

Iggy's my favourite player in the league currently but I won't say that he's good enough to be the second best player on most championship teams but hey the Mavs really didn't have that clear #2 but yet still they won, so you never know.

LTBaByyy
07-14-2011, 12:06 PM
With Gay in the line-up the Grizz were 30 - 24 good enough for a .556 winning %.

Without Gay in the line-up the Grizz were 16 - 12 good enough for a .571 winning %.

Also do you want to know the reason for their 12-3 record? TONY ALLEN. Tony Allen being inserted into the starting line-up and finally starting to find his niche in the times he came off the bench had a huge part to play in the Grizz starting and continuing to play better ball. They were a better defensive team ten fold when Rudy was out and Allen started.

:facepalm:

Tony Allen only started 31 games last season (3 games before Gay got hurt)

Rudy Gay went down with 28 games left.....

Tony Allen was not the reason for the Grizzlies going 12-3 before Rudy got hurt.

Rudy Gay was, he was BALLIN and so clutch

ChiTownPacerFan
07-14-2011, 12:10 PM
With Gay in the line-up the Grizz were 30 - 24 good enough for a .556 winning %.

Without Gay in the line-up the Grizz were 16 - 12 good enough for a .571 winning %.

Also do you want to know the reason for their 12-3 record? TONY ALLEN. Tony Allen being inserted into the starting line-up and finally starting to find his niche in the times he came off the bench had a huge part to play in the Grizz starting and continuing to play better ball. They were a better defensive team ten fold when Rudy was out and Allen started.

Allen didn't start until Gay went down. So actually, they went 12-3 with him coming off the bench.

I'm not discounting how well Allen played, but wouldn't Memphis be better with Allen and Gay, than with Allen and Young or Allen and Mayo.

JustBanMeYouPOS
07-14-2011, 12:11 PM
rudy gay or granger..iggy has a **** season and was not the reason why the sixers made the playoffs. But Iggy based on potential is better than both Gay or Granger id say, but this poll isn't based on potential so no..

Mile High Champ
07-14-2011, 12:12 PM
I like Granger as he is easily the best offensive SF left on the board. I can't imagine what he could accomplish if he had some better players around him.

ChiTownPacerFan
07-14-2011, 12:13 PM
Iggy's my favourite player in the league currently but I won't say that he's good enough to be the second best player on most championship teams but hey the Mavs really didn't have that clear #2 but yet still they won, so you never know.

I'm saying if you pair Iggy with a superstar (Howard, Durant, CP3, Dirk, etc.) he could be the Pippen to someone's Jordan.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 12:16 PM
They didn't play better, that is false. Their winning % says otherwise.


Iggy is a good defender but he doesn't do enough to cross out a good offensive player. Rudy Gay can do enough to go toe to toe with the best scorers at his position and still hold his own on D, he may not shut down the other guy, but he isn't getting shut down either. Iggy can be a non factor at times on offense and you don't see that with Gay. The same thing with deng to an extent, he plays good D, but will also make the other man guard him because he can shoot.

Iggy was the best wing defender this past season.

Tell me something. What do you quantify as an "offensive player" because if its just scoring then that would mean that KD was a better offensive player than LeBron this pass season and Amar'e was the better offensive player than Kobe. Offensive is much more than scoring and that shows in the OSPM#s.

If you think Iggy can be a non factor on offense then you clearly don't watch 76ers basketball on a consistent basis, his overall worth on offense for them this past season was > Deng's, Gay's and Granger's on their respective teams.

You were there one who said you're going with what your eyes see but I'm guessing your eyes didn't show you when Andre Iguodala dishes out key assists on the fast break after grabbing the defensive rebound. I think your eyes may be deceiving you into believe because a player has a better offensive skill set that he's a more valuable offensive player.

ManRam
07-14-2011, 12:18 PM
Anyone who has Granger here does not watch the Pacers play. Granger doesn't even make my top 10.

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Anthony
4. Pierce
5. Iggy
6. Gay
7. Deng
8. Wallace
9. Butler
10. Batum

Granger could potentially go in the 10 spot, but honestly, Batum is essentially a better version of Granger. What can Granger do (besides take more shots) that Batum can't?

You really think that if Batum was a #1 option he'd be as effective as Granger? I really don't think Batum is at all better than Granger. Can you elaborate more besides "you must not watch him" and "what can Granger do that Batum can't" (which if you can't see what he can do better, well, IDK what to say).

ChiTownPacerFan
07-14-2011, 12:18 PM
I like Granger as he is easily the best offensive SF left on the board. I can't imagine what he could accomplish if he had some better players around him.

Granger is not a better offensive player than Gay, Deng, or Butler. I'd say he's about on par with Batum and Wilson Chandler. Just because he scores 20 ppg, that doesn't mean he's a good offensive player. In fact, he isn't even a scorer. He's a shooter. If he had better players around him, he wouldn't have to shoot so damn much, and he could be great role player, instead of the worst go-to option in the league (wait who is the best player on the Bobcats).

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 12:23 PM
:facepalm:

Tony Allen only started 31 games last season (3 games before Gay got hurt)

Rudy Gay went down with 28 games left.....

Tony Allen was not the reason for the Grizzlies going 12-3 before Rudy got hurt.

Rudy Gay was, he was BALLIN and so clutch

Hey Buddy before ever facepalming me do some research. Ok pumpkim?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allento01/gamelog/2011/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201101020LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201101040MEM.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201101040MEM.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201101070MEM.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201101080OKC.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201101100CHA.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201101100CHA.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201102080OKC.html

Do those look like 3 games?

As I stated after the point where you highlighted it was only after Tony found his Niche and Lionel realised how to effectively put him into the rotation (not starting line-up) was when he showed his true worth.

If you don't follow a team during the regular season please don't come here trying to FP me. It's rude.

Gibby23
07-14-2011, 12:23 PM
Their winning % says otherwise.



Iggy was the best wing defender this past season.

Tell me something. What do you quantify as an "offensive player" because if its just scoring then that would mean that KD was a better offensive player than LeBron this pass season and Amar'e was the better offensive player than Kobe. Offensive is much more than scoring and that shows in the OSPM#s.

If you think Iggy can be a non factor on offense then you clearly don't watch 76ers basketball on a consistent basis, his overall worth on offense for them this past season was > Deng's, Gay's and Granger's on their respective teams.

You were there one who said you're going with what your eyes see but I'm guessing your eyes didn't show you when Andre Iguodala dishes out key assists on the fast break after grabbing the defensive rebound. I think your eyes may be deceiving you into believe because a player has a better offensive skill set that he's a more valuable offensive player.

I watched the Sixers when it mattered and Iggy was a non factor against the Heat.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 12:26 PM
Granger is not a better offensive player than Gay, Deng, or Butler. I'd say he's about on par with Batum and Wilson Chandler. Just because he scores 20 ppg, that doesn't mean he's a good offensive player. In fact, he isn't even a scorer. He's a shooter. If he had better players around him, he wouldn't have to shoot so damn much, and he could be great role player, instead of the worst go-to option in the league (wait who is the best player on the Bobcats).

Tell me what evidence do you have to support this claim?

Sadds The Gr8
07-14-2011, 12:26 PM
Deng, because I can't stand how limited Iggy is scoring wise. I guess i want him to be something he's not. It's really close though and can go to Deng, Gay, Iggy, Granger, or Crash

ChiTownPacerFan
07-14-2011, 12:28 PM
You really think that if Batum was a #1 option he'd be as effective as Granger? I really don't think Batum is at all better than Granger. Can you elaborate more besides "you must not watch him" and "what can Granger do that Batum can't" (which if you can't see what he can do better, well, IDK what to say).

Sure, I'll elaborate. They are each great three-point shooters. However, Batum is leaps and bounds the better defender, he's a better shot creator, better ball-handler, better passer, better rebounder, and he's way more athletic. He had a higher true shooting and effective shooting percentage than Granger last season.

If Batum were traded to the Bobcats, the Kings, or any other lousy team where he would be the focal point of the offense, he could average over 20 points per game, I have no doubt about that.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 12:29 PM
I watched the Sixers when it mattered and Iggy was a non factor against the Heat.

Clearly you didn't watch the same series as everyone else.

And wait are those the same eventual Eastern Conference winning Miami Heat? A perimeter player isn't defined by his ability to score against the best perimeter defense (LeBron and Wade combined) in the league.

Eagles4Lyfe
07-14-2011, 12:30 PM
iggy iggy iggy can't you see

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 12:32 PM
Allen didn't start until Gay went down. So actually, they went 12-3 with him coming off the bench.

I'm not discounting how well Allen played, but wouldn't Memphis be better with Allen and Gay, than with Allen and Young or Allen and Mayo.

Allen played alongside Rudy, he started in spurts before Gay went down. What are you guys talking about?

You guys need to go back and read some game recaps and coach's comments on Tony Allen's impact on the Grizz again.

I agree though IMO they would be better with them both starting. Absolutely. However that was not the case last season.

pebloemer
07-14-2011, 12:32 PM
where is ariza :mad:

Not a Top 10 SF.

I wouldn't get worked up about the other "Not Top 10 SF's" that made the poll. Not like they'll win anything over Gay, Granger, Iggy, Deng, Wallace, Marion

ChiTownPacerFan
07-14-2011, 12:35 PM
Tell me what evidence do you have to support this claim?

Evidence? Do you mean statistical evidence. Well, Granger's TS% and Efg% are lower than any of those other players.

But it's not about statistics, it's about watching the players. Gay, Deng, and Butler, are WAY more versatile offensive players than Danny. They can all get to the rim, finish at the rim, create there own shots, keep their defenders off balance, etc. Granger can't do any of these things. He can shoot the ball from 3 at a decent clip, but he isn't the offensive player that those guys are.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 12:35 PM
Deng, because I can't stand how limited Iggy is scoring wise. I guess i want him to be something he's not. It's really close though and can go to Deng, Gay, Iggy, Granger, or Crash

I think that's the problem with a lot of people they look at Iggy's contract and his perceived role (best player and best scorer which is untrue) and judge him based on that, when that really isn't the player he is. He is a great complimentary player.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 12:38 PM
Evidence? Do you mean statistical evidence. Well, Granger's TS% and Efg% are lower than any of those other players.

But it's not about statistics, it's about watching the players. Gay, Deng, Butler, are WAY more versatile offensive players than Danny. They can all get to the rim, finish at the rim, create there own shots, keep their defenders off balance, etc. Granger can't do any of these things. He can shoot the ball from 3 at a decent clip, but he isn't the offensive player that those guys are.

Are you sure you're a Pacer fan because I think we're talking about two completely different players. I am not going to argue with what your eyes tell you though since I disagree %100.

ChiTownPacerFan
07-14-2011, 12:41 PM
Allen played alongside Rudy, he started in spurts before Gay went down. What are you guys talking about?

You guys need to go back and read some game recaps and coach's comments on Tony Allen's impact on the Grizz again.

I agree though IMO they would be better with them both starting. Absolutely. However that was not the case last season.

He was definitely playing more minutes, but he didn't start starting (ha) until Gay went down.

ChiTownPacerFan
07-14-2011, 12:44 PM
Are you sure you're a Pacer fan because I think we're talking about two completely different players. I am not going to argue with what your eyes tell you though since I disagree %100.

So you think what, Granger has good handles, is athletic, creates his own shot, keeps defender off balance? If so, then yes, we do disagree 100%.

Gibby23
07-14-2011, 12:48 PM
If all 3 guys in Iggy, Gay, Granger are out on the Market asking for the same money, Iggy would go last.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 12:54 PM
He was definitely playing more minutes, but he didn't start starting (ha) until Gay went down.

He started bro. He started sporadically.

mjm07
07-14-2011, 12:56 PM
5th Rudy Gay
6th Danny Granger
7th Luol Deng

Crackadalic
07-14-2011, 01:00 PM
You know there are other ways to define a player then scoring and how efficient they are

Iggy is the best wing defender in the league. He was snub with the 1st team defense. His passing is better then any sf out there not name lebron. He effects the game more then another player on his team without scoring and he isnt even a number 1 option on a championship team

Iggy for me

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 01:02 PM
If all 3 guys in Iggy, Gay, Granger are out on the Market asking for the same money, Iggy would go last.

They are both scorers with a higher ceiling than Andre Iguodala so in that case they'd go before in certain circumstances but yet again as I said earlier it depends on the team's needs. This isn't a question of Melo and KD vs Iggy where its a clear no brainer a lot more will have to go into consideration.

mjm07
07-14-2011, 01:06 PM
Correction: Iggy's the 2nd best wing defender in the League. He is not better than Lebron in that regard either. No snub there.

CHANGO
07-14-2011, 01:10 PM
My list.
5 - Iggy
6 - Granger
7- Deng
8 - Rudy (he is injured)

Baller1
07-14-2011, 01:11 PM
Gerald Wallace.

Still one of the most underrated players in the game.

S-Dot
07-14-2011, 01:27 PM
not that he would get my vote here but what is mike beasley considered?

S-Dot
07-14-2011, 01:31 PM
Gerald Wallace.

Still one of the most underrated players in the game.

I like Gerald, always see him as that missing piece to a championship contender. Sadly, he's been given too much of a bigger role on the Bobcats and the Blazers this year.

smood999
07-14-2011, 01:33 PM
iggy slight edge over gay due to his defense...rudy should be next

Chacarron
07-14-2011, 01:35 PM
A.i.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-14-2011, 01:38 PM
Iggy I guess.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 01:39 PM
Correction: Iggy's the 2nd best wing defender in the League. He is not better than Lebron in that regard either. No snub there.

http://basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1639


First Team - Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia
Iguodala has never gotten enough attention for his defense, but this is his debut on my All-Defensive First Team. A couple of things came together here. First, Iguodala's experience at the FIBA World Championship helped demonstrate the impact he could make at the defensive end. That was backed up by the best defensive coach he's had during his career, Doug Collins. The combination helped Iguodala emerge as the anchor of one of the league's most improved defenses.

Second Team - LeBron James, Miami
In plus-minus terms, the Heat relied more on Wade for offense and James for defense. Miami allowed 5.4 more points per 100 possessions when James hit the bench. His size helped mask the weaknesses of the Heat's frontcourt, especially on the defensive glass. When he locks in defensively, James can swallow up perimeter players in a way essentially unmatched throughout the league.

http://basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=649

Take a read. He was viewed as better than LBJ defensively by most experts. Statistically speaking he was indeed better than LeBron on that end of the floor last season.

LBJ vs AI2 in terms of Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production

http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx187/Swashcuff/Basketball/LBJvsAI2.jpg?t=1310664993

LeBron got the 1st Team nod because of the fact that he's LeBron James and he plays for a better team and overall defensive team in the Heat. Reputation more than anything.

Colts2180
07-14-2011, 01:50 PM
Didnt they move Iggy to SG last year? Iggys a good defender but his scoring is crap and his jump shot is crap. Granger had a down year but he still scored 20 and grabbed 5 boards. Hes far and above better than Iggy.

bbcmillionaire
07-14-2011, 01:52 PM
Deng, how easily yawl forget, Luol

cmellofan15
07-14-2011, 01:56 PM
Rudy Gay

Colts2180
07-14-2011, 01:57 PM
A guy that cant even hit a free throw is the 5th best SF in the leauge lol. I mean really 69%? Come on, my 11 year old sister can shoot better than that lol.

Hustlenomics
07-14-2011, 02:08 PM
A guy that cant even hit a free throw is the 5th best SF in the leauge lol. I mean really 69%? Come on, my 11 year old sister can shoot better than that lol.

he's the best wing defender in the league and his passing is very good

Gibby23
07-14-2011, 02:13 PM
he's the best wing defender in the league and his passing is very good

It has to be good if he cant shoot.

KnicksR4Real
07-14-2011, 02:16 PM
add gallinari you scrub

JustBanMeYouPOS
07-14-2011, 02:20 PM
Granger and Iguodala both had "down" yrs but Granger was a little better. He had a slightly better PER, and more Win shares than Iggy. Granger only missed 3 games while his team won 37 games, yet Iggy missed 15 games and his team still managed to win 41 games.
This past season, Brand was the better sixer than Iguodala and it showed through the playoffs.

UKblazers
07-14-2011, 02:24 PM
Sure, I'll elaborate. They are each great three-point shooters. However, Batum is leaps and bounds the better defender, he's a better shot creator, better ball-handler, better passer, better rebounder, and he's way more athletic. He had a higher true shooting and effective shooting percentage than Granger last season.

If Batum were traded to the Bobcats, the Kings, or any other lousy team where he would be the focal point of the offense, he could average over 20 points per game, I have no doubt about that.

This

Crackadalic
07-14-2011, 02:51 PM
So I guess everyone views offense as a more important stat then defense yet burn Mike for his no defense philosophy. Make up your mind PSD

Brooklyn Mets
07-14-2011, 02:52 PM
i voted for Wallace because he is a beast but Deng Iggy Gay and Granger are all on the same level with Wallace so its really a toss up..

GoPacers33
07-14-2011, 02:59 PM
danny danny danny

tyfreaks brotha
07-14-2011, 03:15 PM
Granger/Gay

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 03:35 PM
So I guess everyone views offense as a more important stat then defense yet burn Mike for his no defense philosophy. Make up your mind PSD

Rajon Rondo was voted the 6th best PG in the NBA (4th best the year before with shooting 62%) he shot 56% from the line know what the league average for PGs is? 82.4%

Andre Iguodala shot 69% from the line know what the league average was for SFs? 78%.

Is is really that bad that Iggy goes here and is ok for Rondo to go at #6?

Smh.

As we all know all there is to basketball is FT%.

Rndy
07-14-2011, 03:37 PM
Granger is a chucker Deng all the way.

Lake_Show2416
07-14-2011, 03:39 PM
Easily went with the Gay guy

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 03:41 PM
Granger and Iguodala both had "down" yrs but Granger was a little better. He had a slightly better PER, and more Win shares than Iggy. Granger only missed 3 games while his team won 37 games, yet Iggy missed 15 games and his team still managed to win 41 games.
This past season, Brand was the better sixer than Iguodala and it showed through the playoffs.

When you do analysis be thorough don't be subjective. With Iggy in the line-up we went 36-31 good enough for a .537 winning %. Without Iggy we went 5-10 good enough for a .333 winning %.

Granger had a slightly better PER yes (by .5 to be exact) but his WS were only more because he played more games than Iggy. WS/48 is a way better metric to gauge a player's worth.

Iguodala was THE most valuable player for the 76ers this past season. Our defense was all over when he went down.

PS with Granger in the line-up the Pacers went 36-43 and without him they went 1-2.

Kashmir13579
07-14-2011, 03:46 PM
Wait till Kashmir see's that he's gonna :bang: then :puke:

LOL. yeah i'm not too happy about being ignored by the OP. whether its intentional or not.

I voted Iggy, here, but just as easily could've voted Wallace.

I could see an argument for Granger, but not for Gay. Grizzlies played their best basketball without him and even when he was healthy he was nothing special this season. Factor his contract into the discussion and he doesn't even make the list. (which is completely hypothetical, i know that isn't how we are rating them)

Deng - he has a pretty looking stat sheet, but i don't think he has quite the impact that Iggy, Wallace, or Granger has. He shouldn't go this high. To his credit though, he fits perfectly with Chicago and knows his role. I actually really like Deng as a player.

Kashmir13579
07-14-2011, 03:56 PM
Iggy but gallo should be on this list. I mean Butler barely played and CJ Miles? Really?

The OP is giving us the cold shoulder.

JustBanMeYouPOS
07-14-2011, 04:24 PM
When you do analysis be thorough don't be subjective. With Iggy in the line-up we went 36-31 good enough for a .537 winning %. Without Iggy we went 5-10 good enough for a .333 winning %.

Granger had a slightly better PER yes (by .5 to be exact) but his WS were only more because he played more games than Iggy. WS/48 is a way better metric to gauge a player's worth.

Iguodala was THE most valuable player for the 76ers this past season. Our defense was all over when he went down.

PS with Granger in the line-up the Pacers went 36-43 and without him they went 1-2.

Yes and whose fault is it for Iggy's missed games. He was injured this season and had a subpar season- he should have been a star by this point imo but that hasn't progressed as planned. Basically you just proved that the sixers had a below average winning % without Iguodala in their line-up, so I dont see your point exactly (Same can be said with Granger). Obviously since Iggy missed many more games than Granger then the amount of losses who be more thus making the Sixers records look worse. Had Granger missed 15 games, I strongly doubt the Pacers would have made the playoffs (or even be close). And it's debatable to say that Iggy was the sixers most valuable player last season while for the Pacers, it was clearly Danny Granger.

ChiTownPacerFan
07-14-2011, 04:34 PM
I don't think the point of this thread is "based solely on last year's production". The question is who is the "best player". Meaning right now. As in, if you could have one of these guys how would you rank them.

The fact that anyone missed some games last year is pretty irrelevant.

SportsFanatic10
07-14-2011, 04:37 PM
wow...good job psd :clap:

i didn't think iggy would get this kinda recognition but he really is a valuable and well rounded player and i like him in this 5 spot.

Southsideheat
07-14-2011, 04:41 PM
I think evey GM in the league would rather have Deng than Iggy.

KnicksR4Real
07-14-2011, 04:54 PM
add gallo!

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 05:06 PM
Yes and whose fault is it for Iggy's missed games. He was injured this season and had a subpar season- he should have been a star by this point imo but that hasn't progressed as planned. Basically you just proved that the sixers had a below average winning % without Iguodala in their line-up, so I dont see your point exactly (Same can be said with Granger). Obviously since Iggy missed many more games than Granger then the amount of losses who be more thus making the Sixers records look worse. Had Granger missed 15 games, I strongly doubt the Pacers would have made the playoffs (or even be close). And it's debatable to say that Iggy was the sixers most valuable player last season while for the Pacers, it was clearly Danny Granger.

1st: Anyone who says Iguodala had a down year last season doesn't deserve to be in a discussion that include him because he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.

2nd: You said earlier that despite missing so many games the 76ers still managed to win 41 games. I PROVED that we one 41 largely because of Iggy and not in-spite of him.

3rd: You try to speak of Iggy being injured. In his first 6 years in the league Andre Iguodala missed a total of 6 games. No player in the NBA played more games than him during that span.

4th: The 76ers had a better team than the Pacers so it's no surprise that they would be an even worst team without him. I could say the same that if Iggy remained healthy the 76ers would have gotten the 6th seed ahead of the Knicks. That fact that it's debatable as to whether Iggy's the 76ers best player is no fault of Iggy it's based on the fact that he had a young stud PG in Jrue Holiday and a resurgent former All Star in Elton Brand playing along side. Had Iggy played on the Pacers there'd be no question that he'd be their best player.

5th: As I have PROVEN time and time again in this thread Iggy's production while he's on the court is > than that of Granger's. Iggy help's his team more offensively and defensively than Granger does despite being and inferior scorer.

6th: RIGHT NOW Iggy is better case closed.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 05:07 PM
I think evey GM in the league would rather have Deng than Iggy.

Why do you say this?

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 05:27 PM
Went with Deng (despite the vote) since he he was a more efficient shooter and lead Iggy and Gay in Win Shares and WS/48. Not to mention he was probably the Bulls best defender despite the majority thinking other wise.

Deng also outplayed Iggy in the playoffs while they went up against the same team (Miami).



Deng Iggy
Game 1 TS 64% Game 1 TS 28%
Game 2 TS 40% Game 2 TS 28%
Game 3 TS 53% Game 3 TS 42%
Game 4 TS 59% Game 4 TS 54%
Game 5 TS 46% Game 5 TS 69%


Iggy PTS - 4, 5, 10, 16, 22.
Deng PTS - 21, 13, 14, 20, 18 on better shooting percentages as well.

And although Lebron was pretty good in the playoffs despite his 4th quarter Finals performances, he was held less efficient due to Deng and the Bulls defense as compared to when the best wing defender in the league matched-up against him.

Used this 1 series because it was the only one Iggy was a part of.

IMO this is really selective and doesn't give a comprehensive understanding of the comparison. I mean I could easily use their per game AST% in those 5 games series and choose Iggy based on that. Their no doubt that Deng is a more efficient scorer but we all know that that isn't Iggy's forte.

Deng's performance was also viewed as better on LeBron because of the fact he was supported by a much better defensive unit. Iggy also had the privilege of having been assigned to both Wade and LeBron at times during that series. As far as WS and WS/48 I think we both know that Deng benefited from playing for a better team.

SteBO
07-14-2011, 05:31 PM
Swashcuff gave every single reason why I chose Iguodala here. I don't see how anyone can say Iguodala had a down year just based on his scoring. Iguodala, to me at least, isn't known as scorer, more of a playmaker. I was tempted to choose Granger, but imo Iguodala does so much more for his team. I'll put Granger at #6 though.

JustBanMeYouPOS
07-14-2011, 05:33 PM
[Quote]1st: Anyone who says Iguodala had a down year last season doesn't deserve to be in a discussion that include him because he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.
He did have a down year to me, look at his stats compare to the previous years. I expected this past season to be his first allstar selection but it wasn't really close to that. And I wasn't saying all the blame goes to him (many of it deserves to be put on Doug Collins, but since they made the playoffs things seemed fine). Iguodala's scoring, shot attempts and PER are the lowest since his second season. He wasn't that aggressive because he wasn't fully healthy.


2nd: You said earlier that despite missing so many games the 76ers still managed to win 41 games. I PROVED that we one 41 largely because of Iggy and not in-spite of him.
Exactly my point. His injury was all on him. If he's supposedly as valuable as you claim he would have done a better job and the team's record without him would have looked worse.



3rd: You try to speak of Iggy being injured. In his first 6 years in the league Andre Iguodala missed a total of 6 games. No player in the NBA played more games than him during that span.
And what's your point?? Are you trying to blame his injury on Doug Collins because that seems rather childish and slightly asinine?


4th: The 76ers had a better team than the Pacers so it's no surprise that they would be an even worst team without him. I could say the same that if Iggy remained healthy the 76ers would have gotten the 6th seed ahead of the Knicks. That fact that it's debatable as to whether Iggy's the 76ers best player is no fault of Iggy it's based on the fact that he had a young stud PG in Jrue Holiday and a resurgent former All Star in Elton Brand playing along side. Had Iggy played on the Pacers there'd be no question that he'd be their best player.
So the sixers had a better team than the Pacers and it's Granger's fault? But like I said, the Sixers isn't really formed as star's team. Its more of team with solid players (coaching can be blamed). And the bolded part is really debatable. If Iggy was on the Pacers alongside Granger, I think the two could possibly co-exist but it would still be Granger's team. Granger would be the #1 option, Iguodala #2. And the the thought that you say "no question" Iguodala would be the best player on the Pacers is pure ridiculous. It's debatable, not "no question"- sounds more like homerism to me :facepalm:


5th: As I have PROVEN time and time again in this thread Iggy's production while he's on the court is > than that of Granger's. Iggy help's his team more offensively and defensively than Granger does despite being and inferior scorer.
And what does this prove about Iggy than Granger?? And how does Iggy help his team more offensively (you mean his versatile scoring?) His defence is greater than Granger's, that is true but it also helps because of the style which the Sixers play- they are more defence oriented and it can deflated his advanced stats.


6th: RIGHT NOW Iggy is better case closed.
Case Closed?? Okay there. And what do you mean by "right now". Nothing has happened yet, the last thing we can base "right now" is the playoffs. And Granger was better than Iguodala in the playoffs. Iguodala underperformed in the playoffs while Granger raised his play- despite playing a better defensive team(CHI). So no, it's now really clearly who is better "right now".

D-Will4Prez
07-14-2011, 05:34 PM
Why. The. ****. Is. CJ. Miles. On. This. List??

Is this a poll for the worst SFs? Or the best?

I went with Granger by the way.

Lil Half Dead
07-14-2011, 05:42 PM
I went Crash over Iggy, but it was so damn close. :pity: At Rudy Gay almost doubling Luol Deng in votes though.

chipurmunki
07-14-2011, 05:44 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 2 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best.


1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Carmelo Anthony
4) Paul Pierce
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


this damn poll is scheisse. 100% worthless. you have MILES on this damn list? how the hell are we supposed to be objective when you have a nobody like miles on here? and paul pierce? top 5??? over granger and iggy??? i've lost all faith in psd nba forum posters. i can guarantee you something, mr. poll-maker... you will NOT be seeing me again. there are not enough emoticons to express how completely ignorant, and asinine, and horses***, and ******** this poll is.
:facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm:
:mad: :confused: :rolleyes: :bang: :crazy: :down: :no: :pity: :pity: :pity: :guns: :guns: :guns: :badidea: :cricket: :drunk: :puke: :burn: :burn: :burn: :bs: :bs: :bs:

Rndy
07-14-2011, 05:44 PM
I went Crash over Iggy, but it was so damn close. :pity: At Rudy Gay almost doubling Luol Deng in votes though.

lol it's a joke I could see Iggy leading over Deng I guess. But Deng out performed Granger and Gay I don't think it's hate it's just stupidity.

SteBO
07-14-2011, 05:46 PM
lol it's a joke I could see Iggy leading over Deng I guess. But Deng out performed Granger and Gay I don't think it's hate it's just stupidity.
I agree. I've noticed that Gay especially gets overrated alot on this site. I don't really know why, but that's reality.

D-Will4Prez
07-14-2011, 05:48 PM
And why the hell is Richard Jefferson not on this list? He's better than half the guys up there. :pity:

JustBanMeYouPOS
07-14-2011, 05:48 PM
this damn poll is scheisse. 100% worthless. you have MILES on this damn list? how the hell are we supposed to be objective when you have a nobody like miles on here? and paul pierce? #5??? over granger and iggy??? i've lost all faith in psd nba forum posters. i can guarantee you something, mr. poll-maker... you will NOT be seeing me again. there are not enough emoticons to express how completely ignorant, and asinine, and horses***, and ******** this poll is.
:facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm:
:mad: :confused: :rolleyes: :bang: :crazy: :down: :no: :pity: :pity: :pity: :guns: :guns: :guns: :badidea: :cricket: :drunk: :puke: :burn: :burn: :burn: :bs: :bs: :bs:

It's 100% wortless because Miles is on the list and Pierce was #5?? Miles is on the list as a option, it isn't as if he'll get selected in the top 10 (Id be surprised if he does, but chances are he wont). There are 15+ players on the list, not everyone will get selected- obviously!

And what's the problem with Pierce over Granger or Gay?? Pierce is better than them both and had a better season than them. There are more stronger arguments claiming Pierce to be better than them, then vice-versa, so I dont get you whinning.

naps
07-14-2011, 05:52 PM
It's Iggy here. His all-round game is hands down better than others on the list. The only thing some of the other guys are better than him is scoring. He's a much better defender, playmaker, and rebounder than others.

Rndy
07-14-2011, 05:52 PM
this damn poll is scheisse. 100% worthless. you have MILES on this damn list? how the hell are we supposed to be objective when you have a nobody like miles on here? and paul pierce? top 5??? over granger and iggy??? i've lost all faith in psd nba forum posters. i can guarantee you something, mr. poll-maker... you will NOT be seeing me again. there are not enough emoticons to express how completely ignorant, and asinine, and horses***, and ******** this poll is.
:facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm:
:mad: :confused: :rolleyes: :bang: :crazy: :down: :no: :pity: :pity: :pity: :guns: :guns: :guns: :badidea: :cricket: :drunk: :puke: :burn: :burn: :burn: :bs: :bs: :bs:

Wtf? I think it's really sad you know that little about basketball. Did you even see his stats? 620 ts% 551 efg% before acting like you're two years old do some research.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 05:59 PM
He did have a down year to me, look at his stats compare to the previous years. I expected this past season to be his first allstar selection but it wasn't really close to that. And I wasn't saying all the blame goes to him (many of it deserves to be put on Doug Collins, but since they made the playoffs things seemed fine). Iguodala's scoring, shot attempts and PER are the lowest since his second season. He wasn't that aggressive because he wasn't fully healthy.

Remember what I said about not deserving to be in this discussion? This right here is what I mean. If you don't understand statistics and how to put them into perspective don't speak of them.

You said he had a down year to you and that's because you don't understand the numbers you are viewing or the context in which he put them up. He was asked to be less aggressive in order to facilitate for the growth of Evan, Jrue and Young. It was rough but he bought into the philosophy.

In your expert opinion though he didn't make an All Star team did his defensive 2nd team nod speak anything to his production this season? Or were they just not enough good Fs this season to take this spot ahead of him?


Exactly my point. His injury was all on him. If he's supposedly as valuable as you claim he would have done a better job and the team's record without him would have looked worse.

This has to be the most foolish thing I've read on here. You're telling me that Iggy isn't good because the 76ers should have been a WORST team when he went down? That's your reasoning? So you winning 5 of 15 games is that great then? Smh The ignorance of posts like this astounds me.

As good as I claim? Go back to page one and read my statistical analysis of Andre's breakdown. I don't claim anything but proven facts.


And what's your point?? Are you trying to blame his injury on Doug Collins because that seems rather childish and slightly asinine?

:confused: Are you a madman I am not trying to blame his injury on anyone you said he wasn't good because he was injured you said it was only his fault he was injured, I counter by saying that it wasn't he has worked on his body a tonne in his career and has remained healthy as a result. Last season he suffered an injury which the law of averages suggests he would.


So the sixers had a better team than the Pacers and it's Granger's fault? But like I said, the Sixers isn't really formed as star's team. Its more of team with solid players (coaching can be blamed). And the bolded part is really debatable. If Iggy was on the Pacers alongside Granger, I think the two could possibly co-exist but it would still be Granger's team. Granger would be the #1 option, Iguodala #2. And the the thought that you say "no question" Iguodala would be the best player on the Pacers is pure ridiculous. It's debatable, not "no question"- sounds more like homerism to me :facepalm:

I meant had Iggy been on the Pacers in place of Granger. Smh. When did I say the Sixers were to blame. I was pointing out the gaping holes in your non argument.


And what does this prove about Iggy than Granger?? And how does Iggy help his team more offensively (you mean his versatile scoring?) His defence is greater than Granger's, that is true but it also helps because of the style which the Sixers play- they are more defence oriented and it can deflated his advanced stats.

What does it PROVE about Iggy? It PROVES that he is the most valuable player of the bunch. His overall offensive effectiveness (playmaking+scoring) is more valuable to his team than Granger which is the reason why his team is at it's most potent offensively when he's on the floor. As for defense I don't even think I need to comment on that.


Case Closed?? Okay there. And what do you mean by "right now". Nothing has happened yet, the last thing we can base "right now" is the playoffs. And Granger was better than Iguodala in the playoffs. Iguodala underperformed in the playoffs while Granger raised his play- despite playing a better defensive team(CHI). So no, it's now really clearly who is better "right now".

Tell me something. Do you understand statistics and context? Do you understand that when we speak of right now we look at a 82 game regular season as having more weight MUCH more weight than an 8 game playoff series against the best perimeter defense (Miami Heat duo of LeBron and Wade) in the league.

chipurmunki
07-14-2011, 06:01 PM
why the ******* is he up there and jefferson isn't? what is batum doing there? this is THE dumbest poll on psd. shameful.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 06:02 PM
I agree. I've noticed that Gay especially gets overrated alot on this site. I don't really know why, but that's reality.

It's sooo true Gay is one of the most overrated players on here while Deng continues to be one of the most underrated.

bulls_world23
07-14-2011, 06:04 PM
Its a toss up between Iggy and Deng. Deng was the Bulls best defender, played the most minutes and didn't miss a game. Still can't figure out why people voted for Granger and Gay over Luol.

save the knicks
07-14-2011, 06:07 PM
lol CJ Miles?

We might as well just go by there "Q scores"

SteBO
07-14-2011, 06:11 PM
It's sooo true Gay is one of the most overrated players on here while Deng continues to be one of the most underrated.
On this one, I was torn between Iggy and Granger, then forgot about how effective Deng was last year. As you already mentioned, alot of Dengs' effectivness was helped by the great defensive system Thibs has in Chicago, but regardless of that, he's still a pretty efficient scorer that rebounds. Granger is a nice scorer, but the knock on him is his inconsistent defense. I went Iggy here due to his "impact" on the Sixers.

People are obssesed with PPG, and knock Andre for his decrease in point production, but don't acknowledge his defense(did a nice job on Wade/LeBron in the first round imo, they didn't really explode in any of the games), and his playmaking ability. He also rebounds well for a SF, as all the statistics you had posted earlier in this thread indicated everything I've said thus far.

bulls_world23
07-14-2011, 06:12 PM
Cj miles? Really? I think Scalabrine would have received more votes

Kashmir13579
07-14-2011, 06:16 PM
See OP, you could've avoided all of this bashing if you did as i asked; put Gallinari on the list and take Miles off of it. :up:

blastmasta26
07-14-2011, 06:19 PM
Iggy here. His all-around game is better than anyone left on this list.

mightybosstone
07-14-2011, 06:59 PM
Incredibly close between Iggy and Granger, IMO. At this point in their careers, I give the edge to Iguodala. In a year, it could be completely different...

DR_1
07-14-2011, 07:42 PM
5. Gay, for his ability to take over on the perimeter
6. Deng, for his all-around consistency
7. Iggy, he's very athletic and a great defender

8. Granger - Too much of a chucker.

So Gay, Deng, Iggy. Granger just sucks.

ChiTownPacerFan
07-14-2011, 08:18 PM
C.J. Miles is a fine player, I see no problem with him being on this list. Calm down people.

Furthermore, Batum is very good player. In fact, I think he should make the top ten. I wouldn't be upset if Gallo were on the list, but he isn't making the top 10, so there's no reason to get mad.

Chacarron
07-14-2011, 08:24 PM
If CJ Miles is on the list, I think Metta World Peace should be as well.

JusBanMeYouPOS
07-14-2011, 08:34 PM
Remember what I said about not deserving to be in this discussion? This right here is what I mean. If you don't understand statistics and how to put them into perspective don't speak of them.


You said he had a down year to you and that's because you don't understand the numbers you are viewing or the context in which he put them up. He was asked to be less aggressive in order to facilitate for the growth of Evan, Jrue and Young. It was rough but he bought into the philosophy.

In your expert opinion though he didn't make an All Star team did his defensive 2nd team nod speak anything to his production this season? Or were they just not enough good Fs this season to take this spot ahead of him?
No, I think you are the one not understandin. I fully stated some of his advanced stats being the lowest since his soph season and you make excuses because of the growth of Evans, Holliday and Young. And I mentioned the thought of him becoming an allstar at this point because of his improvement, but that hasn't happened. He simply had a disappointing season. And where did I say there should have been other forwards to take a spot on the defence team over him?? Honestly at this point, those all-defence teams are bogus. Kobe making it over Wade, or even T. Allen proves my point.



This has to be the most foolish thing I've read on here. You're telling me that Iggy isn't good because the 76ers should have been a WORST team when he went down? That's your reasoning? So you winning 5 of 15 games is that great then? Smh The ignorance of posts like this astounds me.

As good as I claim? Go back to page one and read my statistical analysis of Andre's breakdown. I don't claim anything but proven facts.
You sould re-read what I said because you're just making things up. I never said Iggy wasn't good because his team going 5-10 without him. That doesn't make much sense.




:confused: Are you a madman I am not trying to blame his injury on anyone you said he wasn't good because he was injured you said it was only his fault he was injured, I counter by saying that it wasn't he has worked on his body a tonne in his career and has remained healthy as a result. Last season he suffered an injury which the law of averages suggests he would.
Yes, but that is hardly relivant. Why bother even bringing this up? The poll is based on the past season, not career.



I meant had Iggy been on the Pacers in place of Granger. Smh. When did I say the Sixers were to blame. I was pointing out the gaping holes in your non argument.
If you meant it then you should have stated that. You didn't say anyting about Iggy or Granger switching teams so how was I supposed to know what you meant? Sounds more like a cop-out to me :facepalm:




What does it PROVE about Iggy? It PROVES that he is the most valuable player of the bunch. His overall offensive effectiveness (playmaking+scoring) is more valuable to his team than Granger which is the reason why his team is at it's most potent offensively when he's on the floor. As for defense I don't even think I need to comment on that.
Iguodala is only the better passer than Granger thus making the offense seem as if he does more, but that's also because Iggy is asked to be more of a playmaker


Tell me something. Do you understand statistics and context? Do you understand that when we speak of right now we look at a 82 game regular season as having more weight MUCH more weight than an 8 game playoff series against the best perimeter defense (Miami Heat duo of LeBron and Wade) in the league.
No, you said "right now" and that is referring literally as in right now. But since there is nothing to based it on, "right now" is closer to the playoffs than anything. "Right now" doesn't mean this past 2010-2011 season. And you still cant claim how Iggy had a better playoffs than Granger or that the Heat were a better defensive team than the Bulls.

BTW, mods why did my acct get banned? I logged out, logged back in and it said I was banned for no specific reason?? someone got offended? sensitive much...

VCaintdead17
07-14-2011, 09:05 PM
I don't understand how you could vote for anyone outside Iggy, Deng or Wallace.

But it's Iggy here.

VCaintdead17
07-14-2011, 09:09 PM
this damn poll is scheisse. 100% worthless. you have MILES on this damn list? how the hell are we supposed to be objective when you have a nobody like miles on here? and paul pierce? top 5??? over granger and iggy??? i've lost all faith in psd nba forum posters. i can guarantee you something, mr. poll-maker... you will NOT be seeing me again. there are not enough emoticons to express how completely ignorant, and asinine, and horses***, and ******** this poll is.
:facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm:
:mad: :confused: :rolleyes: :bang: :crazy: :down: :no: :pity: :pity: :pity: :guns: :guns: :guns: :badidea: :cricket: :drunk: :puke: :burn: :burn: :burn: :bs: :bs: :bs:

This. This right here personifies what this forum has turned into.


Dear god....

TrueFan420
07-14-2011, 09:24 PM
iggy and it shouldnt be close. he is the best all around player on the list. i had him over pierce too.

chipurmunki
07-14-2011, 09:42 PM
C.J. Miles is a fine player, I see no problem with him being on this list. Calm down people.

Furthermore, Batum is very good player. In fact, I think he should make the top ten. I wouldn't be upset if Gallo were on the list, but he isn't making the top 10, so there's no reason to get mad.

:facepalm:

spoken like a true pacers fan

:facepalm:

VCaintdead17
07-14-2011, 09:50 PM
:facepalm:

spoken like a true pacers fan

:facepalm:

Says the person who thinks Rudy Gay and Danny Granger are better than Pierce :laugh2:

LakersMaster24
07-14-2011, 11:03 PM
Went with Rudy Gay...I think he is slightly better than Iggy, due to the fact that he can shoot.

im ur fatha
07-14-2011, 11:23 PM
Iggy.

Swashcuff
07-14-2011, 11:48 PM
Should I even bother? :sigh: Let me give this guy one last shot.


No, I think you are the one not understandin. I fully stated some of his advanced stats being the lowest since his soph season and you make excuses because of the growth of Evans, Holliday and Young. And I mentioned the thought of him becoming an allstar at this point because of his improvement, but that hasn't happened. He simply had a disappointing season. And where did I say there should have been other forwards to take a spot on the defence team over him?? Honestly at this point, those all-defence teams are bogus. Kobe making it over Wade, or even T. Allen proves my point.

So wait? Second Team's are bogus but ASG nods aren't? Tim Duncan started this past ASG (was originally voted in by the coaches) in his worst season ever when player's like Lamarcus Aldridge and Zach Randolph were left off. So tell me isn't that bogus as well. At least Iggy's place on the team was warranted and we ALL knew that he deserved the 1st team spot ahead of LeBron.

Please please please don't debate Iggy's stats with me because I will absolutely own you. If you want to debate whether or not he had a down year do so with someone who has no knowledge of the player or the situation then you may feel victorious. If you don't have a comprehensive understanding of his numbers (again I reiterate I posted them earlier take a read and understand) then there is no doubt that you would say he regressed.

I didn't make a single excuse. It wasn't an excuse it was part of our plan going into this season Doug Collins said that. You said something to the extent of blame Collins for Iggy's percieved lack of production IMO that's utter cow manure. Collins was on of the reasons why Iggy had arguably one of his best seasons. PS anyone who say Evans instead of Evan (which obviously wasn't a mistake) needs not hold such a discussion.


You sould re-read what I said because you're just making things up. I never said Iggy wasn't good because his team going 5-10 without him. That doesn't make much sense.

None of what you're saying is making any sense.

please tell me what this means then Shurlock


If he's supposedly as valuable as you claim he would have done a better job and the team's record without him would have looked worse.

Yes, but that is hardly relivant. Why bother even bringing this up? The poll is based on the past season, not career.

Yeah but I guess the fact that he's be healthy his entire career has nothing to do with this discussion right? Again I PROVED to you that Andre is not an injury prone player and his injuries this past season wasn't a result of his own. It wasn't because he didn't put the work in to stay in shape. A ludicrous point which you tried to make when you said it was his fault he was injured.


If you meant it then you should have stated that. You didn't say anyting about Iggy or Granger switching teams so how was I supposed to know what you meant? Sounds more like a cop-out to me :facepalm:

Ok its a cop out ok I admit it. :rolleyes:

SMH if it was my intention to "cop out" I would not have even bother to reply. A normal person with basic comprehension skills would understand my point. You however..... :pity:


Iguodala is only the better passer than Granger thus making the offense seem as if he does more, but that's also because Iggy is asked to be more of a playmaker

Seem as if he does? Hear what then let Swashcuff give you as lesson in simple Math. Very simple

Andre Iguodala averaged 14.1 Points Per Game he also averaged 6.3 assists per game. Stay with me here. 1.4 of those assists were on 3FG while 4.9 were on 2FG.

1.4 * 3= 4.2
4.9 * 2= 9.8

All together Andre Iguodala equaling 14 points per game of offensive assisted production. 14.1 + 14= 28.1 points per game in which Andre Iguodala was accountable for. Philly averaged 99 ppg.

28.1/99 = 28.3% of his team's overall offense.

Now same for Danny

20.5 PPG and 2.5 APG (0.7 3FG and 1.8 2FG)
0.7*3 = 2.1
1.8*2 = 3.6

2.1+3.6=5.7 ppg

20.5 + 5.7= 26.2

Indiana averaged 99.8 ppg

26.2/99.8 ppg= 26.5% of his team's overall offense

So tell me does it still SEEM that is or is it a fact.

Because last I checked 28.3% is > 26.5%

Note to All: This holds true for every other SF on this list for BOTH regular season and playoff production. Iggy accounts for a larger % of his team's offense than any other player on this list and did so in the regular season and the playoffs. So to say that his offense is poor is ignorant. The same should be said about everyone else on this list.


No, you said "right now" and that is referring literally as in right now. But since there is nothing to based it on, "right now" is closer to the playoffs than anything. "Right now" doesn't mean this past 2010-2011 season. And you still cant claim how Iggy had a better playoffs than Granger or that the Heat were a better defensive team than the Bulls.

Again you don't have any part to play in this discussion. In terms of overall offensive production Iggy had a better post season that Granger. Lets not even talk about defense.

And if you think the term Right Now is being used in a literal sense then you really are a piece of work.

SeoulBeatz
07-14-2011, 11:50 PM
This is really all you need to see..... (Scroll down to "victim list")

http://www.depressedfan.com/basketball/sixers/iguodalas-victim-list.php

Iguodala is an extremely good defender. So good that you can go into every game knowing that whoever Iggy's guarding isn't getting double digits tonight.

He is that lock-down and although he doesn't show much emotion his defensive intensity is at 100% all the time and since he's athletic, strong, and fast with freakishly long arms, that makes him a nightmare from any opponent.

If only I could speak this highly of his shooting touch, but otherwise, he is a very good 2nd option and GREAT 3rd option on any contender.

ChiTownPacerFan
07-15-2011, 12:21 AM
:facepalm:

spoken like a true pacers fan

:facepalm:

Hey, I love a good insult, but WTF does that even mean? Are you suggesting that Pacer fans have a propensity to overrate Jazz players? Or that Pacer fans specifically like C.J. Miles? I don't get it.

NYKnicksAllDay
07-15-2011, 12:54 AM
Iggy.

marj987
07-15-2011, 01:21 AM
Take Butler off and place Marion.

marj987
07-15-2011, 01:23 AM
I thought C.J played the 2?

EaglePride615
07-15-2011, 02:37 AM
iggy then rudy then granger. you people forgot how good rudy was because he was hurt. dude is a great player and the grizz will make some noise in the west for a while with him back.

LakersMaster24
07-15-2011, 03:01 AM
Its funny how stats became the only argument you need to prove one player is better than the other. :rolleyes:

Swashcuff
07-15-2011, 09:23 AM
Its funny how stats became the only argument you need to prove one player is better than the other. :rolleyes:

I agree an opinion with nothing to support it is way better. :rolleyes:

We debate on a forum where we are asked to provide facts to back our arguments. What else are we suppose to bring to the table. We state why a player is better in our argument and support it with stats and explain the context in which it was placed.

Mile High Champ
07-15-2011, 10:23 AM
Mods can close, number 6 is up.