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PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2011, 06:45 PM
I had originally posted this in the #8 thread but I know Swash had suggested that I post this in the NBA Stats forum. I'd be open to suggestions. In fact, I already have a few minor tweaks in mind that I'm planning on implementing.

Edit: I just realized, I really need to thank basketball reference. They have such a great site and a lot of these statistical debates wouldn't be possible without bball-ref.

Also, probably need to cite this article, since this is Pelton's method:
http://basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=415


Hey Swash, so I've completed my analysis using Win Shares. I'll get right down to it and explain what I did.

I mostly used Pelton's method but adjusted it a bit to weight the playoffs more.

Anyways, first, I found the career total win shares for each of the 5 players on the list. Next, I found the best 3 seasons for each player, regardless of year.

For example, doing this for Duncan you get 17.8 WS in 01-02, 16.5 in 02-03 and 13.2 in 00-01 and the total is 47.5. The fact that they came in 3 consecutive years is irrelevant. For some of the other players, that wasn't the case.

After, I calculated the best 5 consecutive seasons for each player. This is basically the maximum total of any 5 years in a row. It doesn't necessarily have to be ages 25-30 but I would imagine most of the time, those seasons fall in that age area.

This gave me the 3 regular season components.

After that, I looked at their career playoff numbers (Simply looking at any 1 season is going to skew the results because of the limited sample size of playoff games). I took their career WS in the playoffs and divided that by games played. I could've used WS/48 but I wanted minutes played to be factored in. So anyways, with career WS / games played, you have Win Shares per game. Then I multiplied that by 82 to get essentially a season worth of playoff games.

The following is the results of all these calculations:


career best 3 5 consc playoff WS
Hakeem 162.8 42.5 60.3 12.78
Barkley 177.2 50.1 75.8 13.00
Duncan 170.0 47.5 73.6 13.42
Kobe 156.3 44.0 64.2 10.57
KG 174.7 50.0 77.7 10.00


However, these are all uneven totals and their needs to be some form of weights applied.

So I divided the career total by 10 (yes, its an arbitrary # but it produces a comparable result to the other numbers in the table). I divided the best 3 seasons by 3 and the 5 consecutive best seasons by 5.

This gets you comparable #'s, although slightly different. I then added those 3 numbers up (career/10, best 3/3 and 5 consc/5) and divided by 3 to find the average. This number is the regular season total.

Then it's simply about deciding how much weight you want to place on the playoffs vs. the regular season. Obviously, you have to keep in mind that in the regular season, you have a much larger sample size. At the same time, the playoffs are the ultimate test and show how you do under pressure and against good teams.

I weighted it 40% regular season and 60% playoffs. This was done by
reg season*.4 + playoff WS*.6 = Overall

Here were the results:


career best 3 5 consc reg season Overall
Hakeem 16.28 14.17 12.06 14.17 13.34
Barkley 17.72 16.70 15.16 16.53 14.41
Duncan 17.00 15.83 14.72 15.85 14.39
Kobe 15.63 14.67 12.84 14.38 12.09
KG 17.47 16.67 15.54 16.56 12.62


It's interesting to see Barkley on top, although barely above Duncan. But if you fudge around with how much weight you give to the playoffs- maybe instead of 60-40, you do 70-30- than Duncan will come out on top. It's easy enough to do if you want to mess around with the weights.

There could be some issues with my whole method here. For example, it'd probably make it more accurate if I factored in the % of performance loss from the regular season. KG would be the biggest loser in that regard. And then as Chronz said, if I included 7 seasons and 9 seasons, it could change the entire results around. Another issue is that I've taken career playoff #'s and extrapolated them out, instead of taking some individual playoff runs and giving them any weight. Personally, I don't like the idea of doing that since its such a small sample size.

Anyways, enjoy. Let me know your thoughts. For me personally, I enjoyed doing this and it certainly makes me feel better about picking Duncan here.

I do want to do this out for EWA (PER's cousin) and WARP to see if anything is different.

And Chronz, I'd love it if you weighed in on what I did here.

PS- This only furthers my opinion that Barkley is one of the most underrated players ever. If he had a championship, people's opinion of him would be drastically changed. And thats a shame that a team accomplishment is holding back Chuck in most people's eyes.

I'll continue to do this out for some of the all-time greats. I've already done it for MJ, Shaq and Magic.

In fact, it was when I was doing this out for Shaq that I noticed some few things I'd like to change. Shaq's playoff numbers get watered down from his older days and unfortunately, that gets reflected in his Win Share numbers.

So I plan on rectifying that my talking each players 3 best playoff runs with 500+ minutes and weighting it at 10% each. So the playoff numbers will end up being 70% career playoff numbers and 30% 3 best playoff runs.

NYKalltheway
07-13-2011, 06:48 PM
I'd love to know

Moses Malone
Charles Barkley
Dominique Wilkins
Clyde Drexler
David Robinson
Isaiah Thomas
Gary Payton
John Stockton
Oscar Robertson(?)
Jerry West
George Gervin


You got till the lockout is lifted :laugh2:

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2011, 06:54 PM
Here are the results for PER (or really EWA):


Swash, I have the results for EWA.

For anyone else wondering what the heck I'm talking about, first read this post:
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18525766&postcount=107

Quickly, before I post the results, I'll just let you know what I did for Duncan. I went through 82games.com stats and found that he started playing more at Center from 06-07 onwards (he had a higher % of minutes at C from 06-07 to the present). Up until then, he was mostly at PF. So for the years where he's played mostly at Center, I used the PER positional replacement at C and for the years he played mostly at PF, I used the PER positional replacement at PF.

For his career and playoff totals, I found that "roughly" (and when I say roughly, I mean very roughly) 2/3 of his minutes came at PF and the other 1/3 came at C. So since the PER positional replacement at C is 10.6 and it's 11.5 at PF, I weighted it based on his minutes. This gets you a PER positional replacement of 11.2 (11.5*(2/3)+10.6*(1/3)). So thats what I used when I calculated EWA for his career and playoff numbers.

The rest of the process remained the same- best 3 years, 5 consecutive, career, playoff, etc. The same weightings were applied and so on.

Anyways, here's what I got for EWA.

First, the totals:


career best 3 5 consc playoff EWA
Hakeem 286.01 72.87 110.67 24.42
Barkley 256.33 73.15 113.41 20.43
Duncan 255.31 71.06 108.10 22.88
Kobe 259.64 79.47 112.66 18.90
KG 259.99 79.32 121.26 16.18


Everything weighted and the final results for EWA:


career best 3 5 consc reg season Overall
Hakeem 28.60 24.29 22.13 25.01 24.66
Barkley 25.63 24.38 22.68 24.23 21.95
Duncan 25.53 23.69 21.62 23.61 23.17
Kobe 25.96 26.49 22.53 25.00 21.34
KG 26.00 26.44 24.25 25.56 19.93


Then I averaged out the results for EWA and Win Shares and got a combined total:


Overall WS Overall EWA Combined
Hakeem 13.34 24.66 19.00
Barkley 14.41 21.95 18.18
Duncan 14.39 23.17 18.78
Kobe 12.09 21.34 16.71
KG 12.62 19.93 16.28


PER does like Kobe a lot but again, mainly in the regular season where he's a decimal point behind Hakeem. Kobe's peak is the best when looking at PER. His career playoff PER drags down his numbers though.

As far as WARP is concerned, I can't do it because I don't have Duncan or KG's career numbers. If someone knows where to find those numbers (Chronz maybe?), let me know and I'll do it out. There's no playoff WARP #'s but I can estimate that from the % of performance lost based on PER and WS/48.

I could maybe try emailing bball prospectus and ask if they'd be willing to give the numbers. Don't know if they will though or if they even have it available.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2011, 06:55 PM
I'd love to know

Moses Malone
Charles Barkley
Dominique Wilkins
Clyde Drexler
David Robinson
Isaiah Thomas
Gary Payton
John Stockton
Oscar Robertson(?)
Jerry West
George Gervin


You got till the lockout is lifted :laugh2:

lol, I'll try.

I still have some changes that I'm going to implement first (the ones I talked about). I'll post those hopefully, later today.

flea
07-13-2011, 06:59 PM
Just so I don't have to look through all 18 pages or whatever of that thread, did you do this for the other basketball players already ranked? MJ, Wilt, Bird, Magic, etc.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2011, 07:17 PM
Just so I don't have to look through all 18 pages or whatever of that thread, did you do this for the other basketball players already ranked? MJ, Wilt, Bird, Magic, etc.

I've done this for MJ, Magic and Shaq but I haven't posted it yet.

Win Shares:


career best 3 5 consc playoff WS
Hakeem 162.8 42.5 60.3 12.78
Barkley 177.2 50.1 75.8 13.00
Duncan 170.0 47.5 73.6 13.42
Kobe 156.3 44.0 64.2 10.57
KG 174.7 50.0 77.7 10.00
MJ 214.0 61.9 98.0 18.23
Shaq 181.7 50.4 69.8 11.81
Magic 155.8 48.5 74.8 14.07



career best 3 5 consc reg season Overall
Hakeem 16.28 14.17 12.06 14.17 13.34
Barkley 17.72 16.70 15.16 16.53 14.41
Duncan 17.00 15.83 14.72 15.85 14.39
Kobe 15.63 14.67 12.84 14.38 12.09
KG 17.47 16.67 15.54 16.56 12.62
MJ 21.40 20.63 19.60 20.54 19.16
Shaq 18.17 16.80 13.96 16.31 13.61
Magic 15.58 16.17 14.96 15.57 14.67


PER:


career best 3 5 consc playoff EWA
Hakeem 286.01 72.87 110.67 24.42
Barkley 256.33 73.15 113.41 20.43
Duncan 255.31 71.06 108.10 22.88
Kobe 259.64 79.47 112.66 18.90
KG 259.99 79.32 121.26 16.18
MJ 355.01 101.21 164.56 30.83
Shaq 329.50 88.70 123.75 23.71
Magic 216.67 68.74 105.19 19.26



career best 3 5 consc reg season Overall
Hakeem 28.60 24.29 22.13 25.01 24.66
Barkley 25.63 24.38 22.68 24.23 21.95
Duncan 25.53 23.69 21.62 23.61 23.17
Kobe 25.96 26.49 22.53 25.00 21.34
KG 26.00 26.44 24.25 25.56 19.93
MJ 35.50 33.74 32.91 34.05 32.12
Shaq 32.95 29.57 24.75 29.09 25.86
Magic 21.67 22.91 21.04 21.87 20.31


Overall:


WS EWA Combined peak
Hakeem 13.34 24.66 19.00 36.33
Barkley 14.41 21.95 18.18 39.46
Duncan 14.39 23.17 18.78 37.93
Kobe 12.09 21.34 16.71 38.26
KG 12.62 19.93 16.28 41.45
MJ 19.16 32.12 25.64 53.44
Shaq 13.61 25.86 19.73 42.54
Magic 14.67 20.31 17.49 37.54


This isn't adjusted for the 3 best playoff runs change that I wanted to make.

Swashcuff
07-13-2011, 07:37 PM
I've done this for MJ, Magic and Shaq but I haven't posted it yet.

Win Shares:


career best 3 5 consc playoff WS
Hakeem 162.8 42.5 60.3 12.78
Barkley 177.2 50.1 75.8 13.00
Duncan 170.0 47.5 73.6 13.42
Kobe 156.3 44.0 64.2 10.57
KG 174.7 50.0 77.7 10.00
MJ 214.0 61.9 98.0 18.23
Shaq 181.7 50.4 69.8 11.81
Magic 155.8 48.5 74.8 14.07



career best 3 5 consc reg season Overall
Hakeem 16.28 14.17 12.06 14.17 13.34
Barkley 17.72 16.70 15.16 16.53 14.41
Duncan 17.00 15.83 14.72 15.85 14.39
Kobe 15.63 14.67 12.84 14.38 12.09
KG 17.47 16.67 15.54 16.56 12.62
MJ 21.40 20.63 19.60 20.54 19.16
Shaq 18.17 16.80 13.96 16.31 13.61
Magic 15.58 16.17 14.96 15.57 14.67


PER:


career best 3 5 consc playoff EWA
Hakeem 286.01 72.87 110.67 24.42
Barkley 256.33 73.15 113.41 20.43
Duncan 255.31 71.06 108.10 22.88
Kobe 259.64 79.47 112.66 18.90
KG 259.99 79.32 121.26 16.18
MJ 355.01 101.21 164.56 30.83
Shaq 329.50 88.70 123.75 23.71
Magic 216.67 68.74 105.19 19.26



career best 3 5 consc reg season Overall
Hakeem 28.60 24.29 22.13 25.01 24.66
Barkley 25.63 24.38 22.68 24.23 21.95
Duncan 25.53 23.69 21.62 23.61 23.17
Kobe 25.96 26.49 22.53 25.00 21.34
KG 26.00 26.44 24.25 25.56 19.93
MJ 35.50 33.74 32.91 34.05 32.12
Shaq 32.95 29.57 24.75 29.09 25.86
Magic 21.67 22.91 21.04 21.87 20.31


Overall:


WS EWA Combined peak
Hakeem 13.34 24.66 19.00 36.33
Barkley 14.41 21.95 18.18 39.46
Duncan 14.39 23.17 18.78 37.93
Kobe 12.09 21.34 16.71 38.26
KG 12.62 19.93 16.28 41.45
MJ 19.16 32.12 25.64 53.44
Shaq 13.61 25.86 19.73 42.54
Magic 14.67 20.31 17.49 37.54


This isn't adjusted for the 3 best playoff runs change that I wanted to make.

Great stuff. :clap:

I see what you were saying about MJ :speechless:

IMO they are spot on in each aspect. I think you can safely say that your "method" is indeed reflecting consistently accurate results.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2011, 08:32 PM
Great stuff. :clap:

I see what you were saying about MJ :speechless:

IMO they are spot on in each aspect. I think you can safely say that your "method" is indeed reflecting consistently accurate results.

Thanks.

Although, I can't take all the credit because it's not really my method. It's originally Bill James, and then Kevin Pelton adjusted it for basketball and now I'm adjusting his to include some playoff numbers. And of course, I'm going to continue to try to refine it.

What I can take credit for is doing all the dirty work lol.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-13-2011, 11:01 PM
Even with the changes I made, the Duncan-Hakeem debate still favors the Dream but by a minuscule amount, which actually didn't change at all (the difference between the two).

Unless I further tweak this, I guess I'll be voting for Dream. Unfortunately for Hakeem though, his greatest playoff run was only 4 games and so therefore, he didn't qualify for the minutes cutoff (which I set at 500 minutes in the playoffs).

PatsSoxKnicks
07-14-2011, 02:40 AM
Quickly thought I'd post the new numbers with the changes I included. I'll get into the explanation/thoughts on it tomorrow. Briefly, the main change is that there is weight given to your best playoff runs, rather than just career totals.

Weighted the playoff #'s: 70% career, 10% best playoff run with 500+ minutes, 10% 2nd best playoff run with 500+ minutes, 10% 3rd best playoff run with 500+ minutes.

Also, I need to explain what happened with Barkley and KG. Both of them had very few playoff runs with 500+ minutes, so that automatically disqualified some of the best playoff runs they've had, which were of course only in 4-5 games sometimes. That left about 3-4 seasons where they actually had over 500+ minutes in the playoffs. And of course for KG, one of them was in 2010 where he was obviously out of his prime. Naturally, you can guess that his performance in that playoffs was actually below his career averages.

So what ended up happening for them is that I could only find 2 seasons where they performed above their career playoff averages and I weighted that at 10%. So both KG and Barkley's overall playoff numbers got weighted at 80%.

In addition, I was a bit kind to Barkley because I included one of his seasons where he played 497 minutes in the playoffs. Maybe I shouldn't have included it but it didn't help him all that much.

If anyone is confused about what I just said (since I've made it more complicated), let me know and I'll try to explain it better.

Win Shares:


career best 3 5 consc playoff WS
Hakeem 162.8 42.5 60.3 13.66
Barkley 177.2 50.1 75.8 13.34
Duncan 170.0 47.5 73.6 14.55
Kobe 156.3 44.0 64.2 12.30
KG 174.7 50.0 77.7 10.52
MJ 214.0 61.9 98.0 19.27
Shaq 181.7 50.4 69.8 13.48
Magic 155.8 48.5 74.8 14.87



career best 3 5 consc reg season Overall
Hakeem 16.28 14.17 12.06 14.17 13.86
Barkley 17.72 16.70 15.16 16.53 14.61
Duncan 17.00 15.83 14.72 15.85 15.07
Kobe 15.63 14.67 12.84 14.38 13.13
KG 17.47 16.67 15.54 16.56 12.94
MJ 21.40 20.63 19.60 20.54 19.78
Shaq 18.17 16.80 13.96 16.31 14.61
Magic 15.58 16.17 14.96 15.57 15.15


PER:


career best 3 5 consc playoff EWA
Hakeem 286.01 72.87 110.67 25.71
Barkley 256.33 73.15 113.41 20.76
Duncan 255.31 71.06 108.10 23.87
Kobe 259.64 79.47 112.66 20.94
KG 259.99 79.32 121.26 17.12
MJ 355.01 101.21 164.56 32.11
Shaq 329.50 88.70 123.75 26.45
Magic 216.67 68.74 105.19 20.15



career best 3 5 consc reg season Overall
Hakeem 28.60 24.29 22.13 25.01 25.43
Barkley 25.63 24.38 22.68 24.23 22.15
Duncan 25.53 23.69 21.62 23.61 23.76
Kobe 25.96 26.49 22.53 25.00 22.56
KG 26.00 26.44 24.25 25.56 20.50
MJ 35.50 33.74 32.91 34.05 32.88
Shaq 32.95 29.57 24.75 29.09 27.51
Magic 21.67 22.91 21.04 21.87 20.84



WS EWA Combined
Hakeem 13.86 25.43 19.64
Barkley 14.61 22.15 18.38
Duncan 15.07 23.76 19.42
Kobe 13.13 22.56 17.85
KG 12.94 20.50 16.72
MJ 19.78 32.88 26.33
Shaq 14.61 27.51 21.06
Magic 15.15 20.84 17.99


Actual weights as of now are (this is more for myself lol):
2/15 or 13.33% career
13.33% best 3
13.33% 5 consec
42% career playoff stats
6% best playoff run
6% 2nd best playoff run
6% 3rd best playoff run

JordansBulls
07-14-2011, 01:28 PM
I've done this for MJ, Magic and Shaq but I haven't posted it yet.

Win Shares:


career best 3 5 consc playoff WS
Hakeem 162.8 42.5 60.3 12.78
Barkley 177.2 50.1 75.8 13.00
Duncan 170.0 47.5 73.6 13.42
Kobe 156.3 44.0 64.2 10.57
KG 174.7 50.0 77.7 10.00
MJ 214.0 61.9 98.0 18.23
Shaq 181.7 50.4 69.8 11.81
Magic 155.8 48.5 74.8 14.07



career best 3 5 consc reg season Overall
Hakeem 16.28 14.17 12.06 14.17 13.34
Barkley 17.72 16.70 15.16 16.53 14.41
Duncan 17.00 15.83 14.72 15.85 14.39
Kobe 15.63 14.67 12.84 14.38 12.09
KG 17.47 16.67 15.54 16.56 12.62
MJ 21.40 20.63 19.60 20.54 19.16
Shaq 18.17 16.80 13.96 16.31 13.61
Magic 15.58 16.17 14.96 15.57 14.67


PER:


career best 3 5 consc playoff EWA
Hakeem 286.01 72.87 110.67 24.42
Barkley 256.33 73.15 113.41 20.43
Duncan 255.31 71.06 108.10 22.88
Kobe 259.64 79.47 112.66 18.90
KG 259.99 79.32 121.26 16.18
MJ 355.01 101.21 164.56 30.83
Shaq 329.50 88.70 123.75 23.71
Magic 216.67 68.74 105.19 19.26



career best 3 5 consc reg season Overall
Hakeem 28.60 24.29 22.13 25.01 24.66
Barkley 25.63 24.38 22.68 24.23 21.95
Duncan 25.53 23.69 21.62 23.61 23.17
Kobe 25.96 26.49 22.53 25.00 21.34
KG 26.00 26.44 24.25 25.56 19.93
MJ 35.50 33.74 32.91 34.05 32.12
Shaq 32.95 29.57 24.75 29.09 25.86
Magic 21.67 22.91 21.04 21.87 20.31


Overall:


WS EWA Combined peak
Hakeem 13.34 24.66 19.00 36.33
Barkley 14.41 21.95 18.18 39.46
Duncan 14.39 23.17 18.78 37.93
Kobe 12.09 21.34 16.71 38.26
KG 12.62 19.93 16.28 41.45
MJ 19.16 32.12 25.64 53.44
Shaq 13.61 25.86 19.73 42.54
Magic 14.67 20.31 17.49 37.54


This isn't adjusted for the 3 best playoff runs change that I wanted to make.

Good analysis. Actually I think you should have included David Robinson. He is top 4 in PER all time and #2 in WS/PER 48 minutes in the season. If you use playoffs he underperforms though.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-14-2011, 01:55 PM
Good analysis. Actually I think you should have included David Robinson. He is top 4 in PER all time and #2 in WS/PER 48 minutes in the season. If you use playoffs he underperforms though.

Yeah, I just realized I should've included him. But this was meant mainly for the #8 thread so other guys like Wilt, Bird, Russell etc. I haven't got around to doing yet either.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-14-2011, 02:25 PM
Here were the differences between what I originally calculated (where I only included their career playoff averages) and the new changes I made (where your 3 best playoff runs with 500+ minutes got weighted at 10% each):


diff WS diffEWA difference Combined
Hakeem 0.53 0.77 0.65
Barkley 0.20 0.20 0.20
Duncan 0.68 0.59 0.63
Kobe 1.04 1.23 1.13
KG 0.31 0.56 0.44
MJ 0.62 0.76 0.69
Shaq 1.00 1.65 1.32
Magic 0.48 0.53 0.51


The reason I wanted to include the 3 best playoff runs were because when I did this out for Shaq, I felt that his playoff numbers didn't accurately reflect the dominance he showed in the early part of the decade in the playoffs. He's been in A LOT of playoff battles and a little more then 1/5 of his playoff minutes came at below average levels if you look at WS/48.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html

If you look at his WS/48, from 04-05 onwards (old Shaq), he played at an average to below average level. In total that was 1716 minutes, which was about 21.2% of his career playoff minutes. Prior to this, he had played in 11 playoff runs and in 8 of them, he had a WS/48 of >.200.

So you can see the problem with just using his overall career playoff numbers.

I think this is better then what I originally did but I'll continue to calculate the "old" way for the other players that I do.

And if anyone thinks I should change the weights around, let me know. I do sort of feel like the playoffs are weighted too heavily but then again, it is the playoffs.

Swashcuff
07-15-2011, 12:09 AM
Thanks a bunch for all the great analysis pastSoxknicks. PSD is really fortunate to have a poster of your statistical/mathematical intellect who's willing to put in work and share it with us all. Really good stuff. Appreciate what you're doing a lot. :worthy:

PatsSoxKnicks
07-16-2011, 12:18 AM
Good analysis. Actually I think you should have included David Robinson. He is top 4 in PER all time and #2 in WS/PER 48 minutes in the season. If you use playoffs he underperforms though.

JB, I did the numbers out for DRob, he actually came out worse then Hakeem, Barkley, and Duncan mainly due to the playoff adjustment that I did. His regular season numbers were far superior though. His peak was comparable to Shaq's.

I'll post his numbers when I finish some other players (don't feel like posting the numbers just for 1 player).

I think my next "batch" of players will be Bird, Stockton, Kareem, Malone, and 1 other player

PatsSoxKnicks
07-19-2011, 11:22 PM
I posted a lengthy post (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18595784&postcount=37) in the top 50 list of greatest players of all-time thread but basically, I just went into the whole method so anyone who hadn't seen it didn't see a bunch of numbers thrown together.

However, since I've already explained what I did in this thread, I'm just going to post the numbers.

I'm not sure if I said this earlier in the thread but for Chuck, I was generous in counting a playoff run that had 497 minutes. In addition, for some people, they got their playoff career averages weighted at 80% or even 90% depending on whether or not they had any great playoff runs with 500+ minutes. For example, for Oscar using EWA, he had only 1 great playoff run with 500+ minutes that was better than his career playoff averages.

I'm not sure if this seems inconsistent or arbitrary but I basically looked at every playoff run with 500+ minutes and if you only had 3-4 and only 1 or 2 of them were above your career playoff averages, the weightings changed to 80-10-10 or 90-10.

Edit: I did not include Moses Malone's ABA numbers. I'm not sure how they would translate over and frankly, I don't think it'd make much of a difference since he only played 2 seasons in the ABA, one of which was cut in half due to injuries (I'm guessing, maybe not).

Anyways, here are the results for a bunch of new additions, including every player in the top 10 in PSD voting:

Win Shares (totals):


career best 3 5 consc playoff WS
Hakeem 162.8 42.5 60.3 13.66
Barkley 177.2 50.1 75.8 13.34
Duncan 170.0 47.5 73.6 14.55
Kobe 156.3 44.0 64.2 12.30
KG 174.7 50.0 77.7 10.52
MJ 214.0 61.9 98.0 19.27
Shaq 181.7 50.4 69.8 13.48
Magic 155.8 48.5 74.8 14.87
Drob 178.7 55.8 82.9 12.04
Kareem 273.4 69.6 101.8 14.77
Wilt 247.3 70.0 104.8 18.09
Bill R 163.5 49.7 76.2 15.93
L Bird 145.8 46.7 75.3 13.76
John St 207.7 44.1 71.5 9.99
Dirk 161.3 50.1 77.2 15.08
Karl M 234.6 49.0 77.1 11.30
Oscar 189.2 55.0 88.7 13.29
Moses M 167.1 44.6 70.2 12.69
Jerry W 162.6 49.0 69.1 15.76


EWA (totals):


career best 3 5 consc playoff EWA
Hakeem 286.01 72.87 110.67 25.71
Barkley 256.33 73.15 113.41 20.76
Duncan 255.31 71.06 108.10 23.87
Kobe 259.64 79.47 112.66 20.94
KG 259.99 79.32 121.26 17.12
MJ 355.01 101.21 164.56 32.11
Shaq 329.50 88.70 123.75 26.45
Magic 216.67 68.74 105.19 20.15
Drob 265.98 88.94 132.22 17.75
Kareem 400.12 93.48 139.43 22.02
Wilt 369.06 119.63 181.48 27.41
Bill R 168.17 46.44 73.80 17.84
L Bird 222.77 74.45 118.48 20.14
John St 256.64 56.62 91.50 13.29
Dirk 219.94 70.04 107.86 22.71
Karl M 338.39 75.06 113.16 18.01
Oscar 266.37 82.26 130.76 18.34
Moses M 262.35 72.89 115.06 18.91
Jerry W 221.06 65.31 93.55 21.99


Win Shares:


career best 3 5 consc RegSeas Overall
Hakeem 16.28 14.17 12.06 14.17 13.86
Barkley 17.72 16.70 15.16 16.53 14.614
Duncan 17.00 15.83 14.72 15.85 15.07
Kobe 15.63 14.67 12.84 14.38 13.13
KG 17.47 16.67 15.54 16.56 12.94
MJ 21.40 20.63 19.60 20.54 19.78
Shaq 18.17 16.80 13.96 16.31 14.610
Magic 15.58 16.17 14.96 15.57 15.15
Drob 17.87 18.60 16.58 17.68 14.30
Kareem 27.34 23.20 20.36 23.63 18.31
Wilt 24.73 23.33 20.96 23.01 20.06
Bill R 16.35 16.57 15.24 16.05 15.98
L Bird 14.58 15.57 15.06 15.07 14.29
John St 20.77 14.70 14.30 16.59 12.63
Dirk 16.13 16.70 15.44 16.09 15.48
Karl M 23.46 16.33 15.42 18.40 14.14
Oscar 18.92 18.33 17.74 18.33 15.31
Moses M 16.71 14.87 14.04 15.21 13.70
Jerry W 16.26 16.33 13.82 15.47 15.64


EWA:


career best 3 5 consc RegSeas Overall
Hakeem 28.60 24.29 22.13 25.01 25.43
Barkley 25.63 24.38 22.68 24.23 22.15
Duncan 25.53 23.69 21.62 23.61 23.76
Kobe 25.96 26.49 22.53 25.00 22.56
KG 26.00 26.44 24.25 25.56 20.50
MJ 35.50 33.74 32.91 34.05 32.88
Shaq 32.95 29.57 24.75 29.09 27.51
Magic 21.67 22.91 21.04 21.87 20.84
Drob 26.60 29.65 26.44 27.56 21.68
Kareem 40.01 31.16 27.89 33.02 26.42
Wilt 36.91 39.88 36.30 37.69 31.52
Bill R 16.82 15.48 14.76 15.69 16.98
L Bird 22.28 24.82 23.70 23.60 21.52
John St 25.66 18.87 18.30 20.95 16.35
Dirk 21.99 23.35 21.57 22.30 22.55
Karl M 33.84 25.02 22.63 27.16 21.67
Oscar 26.64 27.42 26.15 26.74 21.70
Moses M 26.24 24.30 23.01 24.51 21.15
Jerry W 22.11 21.77 18.71 20.86 21.54


Combined:


WS EWA Combined
Hakeem 13.86 25.43 19.64
Barkley 14.61 22.15 18.38
Duncan 15.07 23.76 19.42
Kobe 13.13 22.56 17.85
KG 12.94 20.50 16.72
MJ 19.78 32.88 26.33
Shaq 14.61 27.51 21.06
Magic 15.15 20.84 17.99
Drob 14.30 21.68 17.99
Kareem 18.31 26.42 22.37
Wilt 20.06 31.52 25.79
Bill R 15.98 16.98 16.48
L Bird 14.29 21.52 17.90
John St 12.63 16.35 14.49
Dirk 15.48 22.55 19.01
Karl M 14.14 21.67 17.91
Oscar 15.31 21.70 18.50
Moses M 13.70 21.15 17.42
Jerry W 15.64 21.54 18.59

PatsSoxKnicks
07-19-2011, 11:44 PM
I'd love to know

Moses Malone- Check
Charles Barkley- Check
Dominique Wilkins
Clyde Drexler
David Robinson- Check
Isaiah Thomas
Gary Payton
John Stockton- Check
Oscar Robertson(?)- Check
Jerry West- Check
George Gervin


You got till the lockout is lifted :laugh2:

I've done the "Check" marked ones. I'll try to do the rest at some point but I'm going to focus on improving what I've done for the time being.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-20-2011, 02:44 AM
Requiring a player to be a Hall of Famer,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=total&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=Y&pos=&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=0&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=season

Taking out a bunch of the guys at the bottom who played before minutes started being tracked, the median number of seasons for a HOFer comes out to be around 13 and so is the average.

So I'm thinking instead of dividing the career totals by 10 (which was a random number), I'll divide it by 13. And any additional season a player plays is basically a bonus.

Or what I could also do is add up additional Win Shares/EWA after the 13th season and somehow factor this into the numbers.

I'm also thinking I'll do either a best 10 years or a best 10 consecutive years stretch. I think the later makes more sense.

So my plans for now are to add the best 10 consecutive years and either divide the career by 13 or find some other way to give additional value to the players who really produced for longer then 13 years.

NYKalltheway
07-20-2011, 02:02 PM
Question. Do you feel that advanced stats (used as correctly and accurately as possible as you've been trying to) alone is enough to determine and compare players? Doesn't "Minutes played" "FGA/FGM" "PPG etc" come to answer the question?

I mean, advanced stats could make someone look better when everyone could see he wasn't better than the other. (or can they not?)

PatsSoxKnicks
07-20-2011, 02:12 PM
Question. Do you feel that advanced stats (used as correctly and accurately as possible as you've been trying to) alone is enough to determine and compare players? Doesn't "Minutes played" "FGA/FGM" "PPG etc" come to answer the question?

I mean, advanced stats could make someone look better when everyone could see he wasn't better than the other. (or can they not?)

I don't think on its own it could determine who's better necessarily. You obviously still need to take into account the era they played in, who their teammates were, etc. For example, Wilt is often called a stat whore who wouldn't take himself out of games. Well, his stats were very good but maybe that was to the detriment of his team? I can't honestly tell you since I don't know that much about Wilt and his teammates. But different questions like that could certainly alter your opinion.

From what I've done here, the biggest thing you can see is probably that all of the all-time greats are really close. It's like splitting hairs. MJ and Wilt and to a lesser extent Kareem and Shaq are way ahead of everybody but with the exception of those 4 guys, everyone else is really close.

And I think advanced stats do a better job then just looking at PPG, FGM/FGA, MP, there's more to the game then just those 3 stats and most importantly, they don't adjust for pace. That is the biggest difference between per game stats and advanced stats, they attempt to adjust for pace. So a player who plays on a really fast paced team and has more shot attempts is penalized while a player who plays on a slow paced team isn't.

Mile High Champ
07-20-2011, 02:15 PM
Very interesting and insightful read. Thank you for this. I may not agree with just looking at a players 3 year prime or over just a 5 year period but there remains a lot of great information here. Well done!

PatsSoxKnicks
07-20-2011, 02:29 PM
Very interesting and insightful read. Thank you for this. I may not agree with just looking at a players 3 year prime or over just a 5 year period but there remains a lot of great information here. Well done!

Thanks, again I'm still working out the kinks. You brought up some good points in that other thread, which of course, I was already working on trying to implement.

Being great for a decade is something that was on my mind and I thought should be rewarded. The other thing is, as you can see, I found that the average HOFer has played for roughly 13 seasons. So if you're comparing all-time greats, shouldn't those who play longer then the average HOFer get some sort of boost? I'm still working on how I'm going to do this though.

Mile High Champ
07-20-2011, 02:35 PM
Thanks, again I'm still working out the kinks. You brought up some good points in that other thread, which of course, I was already working on trying to implement.

Being great for a decade is something that was on my mind and I thought should be rewarded. The other thing is, as you can see, I found that the average HOFer has played for roughly 13 seasons. So if you're comparing all-time greats, shouldn't those who play longer then the average HOFer get some sort of boost? I'm still working on how I'm going to do this though.

This seems like quite a challenge but the best of luck to you. I do agree it would be nice to see those players get a boost due to their longevity.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-20-2011, 06:27 PM
I think I may have found a solution but I'm not sure. Dividing the career by 13 doesn't really measure longevity. Hakeem played longer then DRob but had less win shares in his career. So his career/13 would still be less.

But what I was thinking is adding up the total win shares after the 13th season and dividing that by the number of seasons after the 13th season. This penalizes you a bit for sticking around too long but you still get some bonus. For players who only played 13 seasons or less, they get a fixed value (0 in reality).

For example, Karl Malone played 6 seasons after his 13th season (he played 19 seasons total) and he accumulated 63.2 Win Shares in that time period. His average during that time period was 10.5. For players who have played less than 13 seasons, they'll get a fixed value- 10 makes sense for win shares- and Malone's 10.5 would be added to the 10 (the fixed value).

So, Malone's total would be 20.5. Others like Bird, Magic and Dirk, who've played 13 seasons would have a total of 10. MJ who played 15 seasons, had 9.5 win shares after his 13th season, which is an average of 4.75. His total would be 14.75 (10 + 4.75). Kareem played 20 seasons in the NBA and had 57.5 win shares after his 13th season. His average in that time span was 8.2 so his total would be 18.2.

I'll probably weight this less then the other categories but I like the idea of this because it gives a bonus for playing longer then 13 seasons and for being productive for longer then 13 seasons. In addition, this solves the Hakeem-DRob problem where DRob actually had higher career totals but didn't play as long.

Any thoughts?

Swashcuff
07-23-2011, 08:54 AM
I think I may have found a solution but I'm not sure. Dividing the career by 13 doesn't really measure longevity. Hakeem played longer then DRob but had less win shares in his career. So his career/13 would still be less.

But what I was thinking is adding up the total win shares after the 13th season and dividing that by the number of seasons after the 13th season. This penalizes you a bit for sticking around too long but you still get some bonus. For players who only played 13 seasons or less, they get a fixed value (0 in reality).

For example, Karl Malone played 6 seasons after his 13th season (he played 19 seasons total) and he accumulated 63.2 Win Shares in that time period. His average during that time period was 10.5. For players who have played less than 13 seasons, they'll get a fixed value- 10 makes sense for win shares- and Malone's 10.5 would be added to the 10 (the fixed value).

So, Malone's total would be 20.5. Others like Bird, Magic and Dirk, who've played 13 seasons would have a total of 10. MJ who played 15 seasons, had 9.5 win shares after his 13th season, which is an average of 4.75. His total would be 14.75 (10 + 4.75). Kareem played 20 seasons in the NBA and had 57.5 win shares after his 13th season. His average in that time span was 8.2 so his total would be 18.2.

I'll probably weight this less then the other categories but I like the idea of this because it gives a bonus for playing longer then 13 seasons and for being productive for longer then 13 seasons. In addition, this solves the Hakeem-DRob problem where DRob actually had higher career totals but didn't play as long.

Any thoughts?

I like it. It seems to be a fair as can be across the board and really doesn't hurt players like Hakeem, Kareem and Malone in the way overall career numbers would.

In this way you are able to garner a better appreciation for the respective players overall production and remain reasonable across the board. It seems good.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-03-2011, 03:37 PM
I've been fiddling around with this some more and here's what I currently have:

I haven't changed anything in regards to the playoff numbers, since I can't really see any way to improve it. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd welcome it.

However, I've made some changes with how the regular season is calculated. First, I've added 2 new categories and modified another. As I said earlier, the average HOFers career is 13 seasons, so I think if you provide any value after that, you should get rewarded. Therefore, as I said before, I summed up the win share totals for a player after his 13th season and then divided that by the number of seasons he played after his 13th season.

For example, Stockton played in the league 19 seasons. After his 13th season, he accumulated 56.1 win shares and played 6 more seasons, which is an average of 9.35 per season. I then added this to 10 (which is a random # but sort of makes sense). So Stockton's "After 13" total (his value after his 13th season) would be 19.35.

And in keeping with the whole idea that an average HOFers career is 13 seasons, I modified the career totals to be divided by 13 instead of 10. Not a major change and actually, it has no effect on the results but it's more logically sound because its not a random # anymore.

The last category I added was best 10 consecutive seasons. So basically, here, you're measuring how good a player was over his best decade. Guys who dominate for a decade will obviously come out higher than guys who just have a high peak/prime.

So that's the changes I made for the regular season. This is the way I weighted it:

best 3 seasons- 30%
best 5 consecutive seasons- 30%
best 10 consecutive seasons- 20%
career/13- 10%
"After 13"- 10%

I'm thinking about adding best season too. Still not sure.

Also, with the "After 13", it doesn't quite work because for example, Wilt played 14 seasons and had 18.5 Win Shares in his 14th season, so his total ends up being much higher (28.5) than Karl Malone, who played 19 seasons and therefore had a lower average after 14 seasons (20.5). I don't really think this is fair, so I need to find a way to make some adjustment there. Any ideas?

Any other thoughts?

I'll post the results in a little while when I've decided on whether I like this new way of doing things.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-19-2011, 04:23 AM
One of the things I planned on doing was standardizing the #'s. How do these guys stack up in relation to each other? So far, I've just given a bunch of #'s and you can sort of compare. But by standardizing the results, we can see how many deviations above average one player was vs. another player.

Just to let you know though, average in this case, is not at all average. It's the average of every player I've done this out for, which is obviously really good. For example, in the best 3 seasons category, I took the average of all of the players I did this out for and found that the average best 3 seasons (for these players) was about 16.8 win shares. Obviously, thats really good. But we're also talking about the top 25 players in the game (I realize some guys are left out that should be in there, I'll add them later) so that makes sense.

Anyways, just keep in mind that, if someone's rating is below average, it only means that it is below the average set of ratings of these particular players. I am by no means saying Hakeem is a below average player!

I've done this for Win Shares but you'll notice I haven't included the playoff numbers yet (not sure why, but I'll do that later). So a guy like Hakeem hasn't gotten the boost of his extraordinary playoff performances.

Anyways, before I post it, what do the #'s mean? It's very simple and easy to understand. 50 is "average". Anything above 65 is very good and if you're above 80, well you're insanely good and easily in contention for GOAT from a stats POV. On the other end of the spectrum, anything below 35 means you're "poor" and anything below 20 means you have no business being in this conversation- wait till top 50!

The above criteria applies for each category. Also, for the Overall #, best 3 and 5 consec were weighted 30% each, 10 consecutive 25% and career was weighted 15%.

Here they are:


nBest 3 nCons5 nCar13 nCon10 Overall
Hakeem 35.26 30.64 46.17 37.68 36.11
Barkley 49.49 49.16 51.36 49.07 49.57
Duncan 44.63 46.53 48.77 47.63 46.57
Kobe 38.07 35.30 43.83 43.28 39.40
KG 49.31 51.43 50.46 48.69 49.96
MJ 71.59 75.70 64.63
Shaq 50.06 41.99 52.99 44.40 46.66
Magic 46.50 47.97 43.65 50.81 47.59
Drob 60.17 57.65 51.90
Kareem 86.01 80.24 86.05 76.83 81.99
Wilt 86.76 84.66 76.64 90.08 85.44
Bill R 48.75 49.64 46.42 52.61 49.63
L Bird 43.13 48.57 40.04
John St 38.26 44.02 62.36 51.18 46.83
Dirk 49.49 50.84 45.63 54.61 50.60
Karl M 47.43 50.72 72.06 61.58 55.65
Oscar 58.67 64.58 55.69 62.57 60.97
MosesM 39.19 42.47 47.72 40.79 41.85
Jerry W 47.43 41.16 46.10 48.69 45.66
Pettit 39.19 38.76 36.51 46.95 40.60
JErving 29.83 31.00 25.76 30.52 29.74
Lebron 58.86 58.96 30.34 40.66 50.06
Elgin B 31.89 28.37 25.04 21.00 27.08


One final note: As I continue to add players into this list, many of these guys will get boosts in their ratings. Elgin Baylor looks really poor right now but when I start to add in guys like Wade, Pippen, Cousy, Iverson, Nash, Dwight, etc., he won't look nearly as bad. In fact, his rating will start to go up (assuming he's better statistically).

Another thing is that when those guys get added in, the "average" of all of these players obviously goes down (don't know about the standard deviation), which means guys like MJ, Wilt and Kareem will only further separate themselves from the pack and maybe one of them pushes pass the 100 mark, which would be utterly insane (I doubt it though).

PatsSoxKnicks
08-28-2011, 03:42 AM
Raw totals of more players that I've done this out for using Win Shares:


career best 3 5 consc playoff 10 consc
Hakeem 162.8 42.5 60.3 13.66 114.1
Barkley 177.2 50.1 75.8 13.34 132.4
Duncan 170.0 47.5 73.6 14.55 130.1
Kobe 156.3 44.0 64.2 12.30 123.1
KG 174.7 50.0 77.7 10.52 131.8
MJ 214.0 61.9 98.0 19.27
Shaq 181.7 50.4 69.8 13.48 124.9
Magic 155.8 48.5 74.8 14.87 135.2
Drob 178.7 55.8 82.9 12.04
Kareem 273.4 69.6 101.8 14.77 177.0
Wilt 247.3 70.0 105.5 18.09 198.3
Bill R 163.5 49.7 76.2 15.93 138.1
L Bird 145.8 46.7 75.3 13.76
John St 207.7 44.1 71.5 9.99 135.8
Dirk 161.3 50.1 77.2 15.08 141.3
Karl M 234.6 49.0 77.1 11.30 152.5
Oscar 189.2 55.0 88.7 13.29 154.1
Moses M 167.1 44.6 70.2 12.69 119.1
Jerry W 162.6 49.0 69.1 15.76 131.8
Pettit 136.0 44.6 67.1 11.11 129.0
JErving 106.2 39.6 60.6 10.50 102.6
Lebron 118.9 55.1 84.0 17.65 118.9
Elgin B 104.2 40.7 58.4 10.91 87.3
Hondo 131.7 37.0 57.3 10.52 97.6
Pippen 125.1 38.1 57.0 10.43 100.2
G Mikan 108.7 65.4 94.4 19.91 108.7
D Wade 82.6 42.1 54.2 13.49 82.6
Ewing 126.4 39.6 60.2 8.74 105.4
R Barry 93.4 37.5 58.1 9.93 93.4
B Cousy 91.1 25.6 38.7 7.88 75.5
W Reed 74.9 39.9 57.8 8.66 74.8
Walt F 113.5 45.1 70.8 14.66 110.0
Clyde D 135.6 38.6 62.6 9.66 104.1
McHale 113.0 36.9 57.5 11.17 101.6

PatsSoxKnicks
09-04-2011, 11:28 PM
I had done this out before and forgot to post it, so here are the same ratings as before (where I normalized everyone) but with more players and playoffs:


nBest3 nCons5 nCar13 nCon10 RegSea playoff Overall
Hakeem 45.00 41.48 54.69 48.42 46.25 55.69 51.91
Barkley 56.42 56.41 59.28 58.21 57.29 54.25 55.47
Duncan 52.51 54.29 56.98 56.98 54.83 59.69 57.75
Kobe 47.25 45.23 52.62 53.23 48.95 49.59 49.33
KG 56.27 58.24 58.48 57.89 57.60 41.57 47.98
MJ 74.15 77.80 71.01 80.94
Shaq 56.87 50.63 60.71 54.20 54.90 54.88 54.89
Magic 54.01 55.45 52.46 59.70 55.63 61.16 58.95
Drob 64.98 63.25 59.76 48.40
Kareem 85.72 81.46 89.95 82.06 84.16 60.69 70.08
Wilt 86.32 85.02 81.63 93.45 87.01 75.65 80.19
Bill R 55.82 56.79 54.91 61.26 57.33 65.90 62.48
L Bird 51.31 55.93 49.27 56.17
John St 47.40 52.27 69.00 60.03 55.26 39.17 45.61
Dirk 56.42 57.76 54.21 62.97 58.13 62.08 60.50
Karl M 54.76 57.66 77.58 68.96 62.60 45.08 52.09
Oscar 63.78 68.84 63.10 69.81 66.70 54.05 59.11
Moses M 48.15 51.01 56.06 51.09 50.93 51.35 51.18
Jerry W 54.76 49.95 54.62 57.89 54.08 65.15 60.72
Pettit 48.15 48.03 46.14 56.39 49.87 44.24 46.49
Dr. J 40.64 41.77 36.64 42.27 40.79 41.48 41.20
Lebron 63.93 64.31 40.69 50.99 57.32 73.66 67.13
Elgin B 42.29 39.65 36.01 34.09 38.50 43.31 41.39
Hondo 36.73 38.59 44.77 39.60 39.21 41.57 40.63
Pippen 38.39 38.30 42.67 40.99 39.65 41.18 40.57
G Mikan 79.41 74.33 37.44 45.53 63.12 83.85 75.56
D Wade 44.40 35.60 29.12 31.57 36.26 54.92 47.46
Ewing 40.64 41.38 43.08 43.77 42.01 33.57 36.95
RBarry 37.49 39.36 32.56 37.35 37.27 38.90 38.25
B Cousy 19.61 20.67 31.83 27.78 23.80 29.68 27.33
Wi Reed 41.09 39.07 26.66 27.40 34.90 33.20 33.88
Walt F 48.90 51.59 38.97 46.23 47.55 60.20 55.14
ClydeD 39.14 43.69 46.02 43.07 42.52 37.69 39.62
McHale 36.58 38.78 38.81 41.74 38.86 44.51 42.25
Nique 33.28 36.27 40.25 39.44 36.76 17.95 25.48
Isiah 24.87 26.06 28.51 27.30 26.38 39.02 33.96
GPayton 40.34 39.26 49.17 47.03 43.01 25.57 32.55
Iverson 32.23 23.85 34.35 31.36 29.81 34.03 32.34


If you prefer the raw totals, I can post those too.

PatsSoxKnicks
11-05-2011, 02:20 PM
I'm going to resume working on this but I think the whole "ratings" idea isn't necessary and I'm just going to stick with the scale Win Shares are normally on (instead of trying to do the 0 to 100 scale which makes no sense). Anyways, here are the raw totals of the players I have so far.


career best 3 5 consc playoff 10 consec
Hakeem 162.8 42.5 60.3 13.66 114.1
Barkley 177.2 50.1 75.8 13.34 132.4
Duncan 170.0 47.5 73.6 14.55 130.1
Kobe 156.3 44.0 64.2 12.30 123.1
KG 174.7 50.0 77.7 10.52 131.8
MJ 214.0 61.9 98.0 19.27
Shaq 181.7 50.4 69.8 13.48 124.9
Magic 155.8 48.5 74.8 14.87 135.2
Drob 178.7 55.8 82.9 12.04
Kareem 273.4 69.6 101.8 14.77 177.0
Wilt 247.3 70.0 105.5 18.09 198.3
Bill R 163.5 49.7 76.2 15.93 138.1
L Bird 145.8 46.7 75.3 13.76
John St 207.7 44.1 71.5 9.99 135.8
Dirk 161.3 50.1 77.2 15.08 141.3
Karl M 234.6 49.0 77.1 11.30 152.5
Oscar 189.2 55.0 88.7 13.29 154.1
Moses M 167.1 44.6 70.2 12.69 119.1
Jerry W 162.6 49.0 69.1 15.76 131.8
Pettit 136.0 44.6 67.1 11.11 129.0
Erving 106.2 39.6 60.6 10.50 102.6
Lebron 118.9 55.1 84.0 17.65 118.9
Elgin B 104.2 40.7 58.4 10.91 87.3
Hondo 131.7 37.0 57.3 10.52 97.6
Pippen 125.1 38.1 57.0 10.43 100.2
G Mikan 108.7 65.4 94.4 19.91 108.7
D Wade 82.6 42.1 54.2 13.49 82.6
Ewing 126.4 39.6 60.2 8.74 105.4
Rbarry 93.4 37.5 58.1 9.93 93.4
Cousy 91.1 25.6 38.7 7.88 75.5
Reed 74.9 39.9 57.8 8.66 74.8
Frazier 113.5 45.1 70.8 14.66 110.0
Drexler 135.6 38.6 62.6 9.66 104.1
McHale 113.0 36.9 57.5 11.17 101.6
Nique 117.5 34.7 54.9 5.27 97.3
Isiah 80.7 29.1 44.3 9.95 74.6
Payton 145.5 39.4 58.0 6.96 111.5
Iverson 99.0 34.0 42.0 8.84 82.2
average 12.39

PatsSoxKnicks
11-11-2011, 01:59 AM
A look at the greatest PGs of all-time. It was weighted based on the following for the regular season:
best 3- 30%
5 consec- 30%
career- 20%
10 consec- 15%
best 1 season- 5%

Then the regular season was weighted at 40% and the postseason at 60%.

Like before, I took a player's 3 best postseason runs with over 500+ mins and weighted that at 10% each. So the career postseason #'s were weighted at 70% and the 3 best playoff runs with 500+ mins were weighted at 10% each. In some cases, players didn't have 3 playoff runs with 500+ mins, so I took their 2 best (or 1) playoff runs with 500+ mins. In the case of CP3, I ignored this all together and just took his overall playoff numbers (he's only had 3 playoff runs total)

Win Shares:


career best 3 5 consc 10consc best 1 playoff RegSeas Overall
Magic 155.8 48.5 74.8 135.2 16.5 14.87 14.59 14.76
Oscar 189.2 55.0 88.7 154.1 20.6 13.29 17.07 14.81
Stock 207.7 44.1 71.5 135.8 15.6 9.99 14.71 11.88
Cousy 91.1 25.6 38.7 75.5 8.8 7.88 7.86 7.87
Walt 113.5 45.1 70.8 110.0 15.6 14.66 12.93 13.97
Isiah 80.7 29.1 44.3 74.6 11.2 9.95 8.49 9.37
GP 145.5 39.4 58.0 111.5 13.9 6.96 12.03 8.99
Iverson 99.0 34.0 42.0 82.2 11.8 8.84 9.27 9.01
Nash 119.5 36.6 56.3 102.3 12.6 8.98 11.04 9.80
Kidd 130.1 31.0 46.4 88.2 11.3 9.14 9.77 9.40
CP3 76.4 50.0 66.1 76.4 18.3 14.26 12.20 13.44
Tiny 83.4 38.3 48.6 74.0 14.2 4.40 9.85 6.58


PER:


career best 3 5 consc 10consc best 1 playoff RegSeas Overall
Magic 216.67 68.74 105.19 188.62 23.12 20.15 20.50 20.29
Oscar 266.37 82.26 130.76 230.52 29.39 18.34 25.10 21.04
Stock 256.64 56.62 91.50 172.50 19.14 13.29 18.65 15.43
Cousy 130.56 43.68 70.22 118.02 15.53 10.11 13.14 11.32
Walt 124.78 46.37 73.64 121.57 16.49 15.88 13.62 14.98
Isiah 125.45 46.18 70.03 111.30 17.21 14.43 13.28 13.97
GP 185.19 58.93 87.60 159.71 21.47 8.16 17.47 11.88
Iverson 185.12 61.53 82.60 154.40 23.00 19.57 17.42 18.71
Nash 156.40 49.83 76.26 140.63 17.11 14.41 14.93 14.62
Kidd 167.24 41.78 63.20 116.87 16.66 12.55 13.13 12.78
CP3 111.35 72.45 96.14 111.35 28.38 26.76 17.82 23.18
Tiny 108.51 62.81 81.84 103.95 26.01 2.54 15.72 7.81


Averaged out EWA and WS to get a "combined" total:


Combined
Magic 17.52
Oscar 17.92
Stock 13.65
Cousy 9.59
Walt 14.47
Isiah 11.67
GP 10.44
Iverson 13.86
Nash 12.21
Kidd 11.09
CP3 18.31
Tiny 7.20

WadeKobe
03-06-2012, 12:15 AM
The only issue I have is that this only quantifies offensive production. So, someone like Nash benefits and looks better than Jason Kidd, even though Kidd was so far superior on the defensive end that it easily makes up a 1.12 difference.

Likewise, how do you account for the addition of the 3-point field goal? Also, what about the "offensive rebound" and "turnover" statistics which were not recorded for guys like Jerry West?

I am a huge fan of Jerry West and think he is one of the most underrated players in NBA history due to the lack of a 3-point field goal and, therefore, a lower TS%.