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es0terik
07-08-2011, 08:51 PM
The mid-season update brings awesome news for Jays fans. With the mid-season prospect rankings posted, three of our players have jumped much higher on the list than where they were at before the season started.


Canadian third baseman Brett Lawrie has been ranked 10th on a list of baseball's mid-season top 50 prospects.

The Toronto Blue Jays prospect from Langley, B.C., jumped from 40th on a pre-season list of 100 players put out by Baseball America.

Other Jays prospects in the top 50 include 29th-ranked catcher Travis d'Arnaud and outfielder Anthony Gose, who made his debut on the list at 45th.

Right-handed pitcher Deck McGuire, Toronto's top pick in last year's draft, failed to crack the top 50 after previously being ranked 95th.

Outfielder Bryce Harper, who the Washington Nationals selected first overall last year, tops the list, followed by outfielder Mike Trout of the Los Angeles Angels and left-handed pitcher Matt Moore of the Tampa Bay Rays.

Lawrie has been batting .354 with 15 homers and 49 RBIs with triple-A Las Vegas.

The former first-round pick was acquired by Toronto in a trade with Milwaukee in December.

Lawrie, 21, had been on the verge of making his major-league debut until being hit by a pitch that broke his left hand in May.

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=371324

wamco
07-09-2011, 04:01 PM
prospect porn!

TO Rapz
07-09-2011, 04:14 PM
prospect porn!
indeed. :D

ILDD
07-09-2011, 07:37 PM
Something interesting that I noticed (well I thought it was interesting anyway) was Casey Kelly.

When he was a Red Sox prospect the sun literally shone out of his butt. He was ranked #22 prospect in all baseball by MiLB in January 2011 and was traded (with others) to San Diego for Adrian Gonzalez. 6 months later several prospects ranked above him have graduated to MLB but he's not a top 50 player any more? Surely he wasn't ranked high just because he's a Red Sox player?

And I still don't get the love for Jesus Montero. From everything I've read he's not a catcher, more like a 1B/DH player and that lowers his value enormously. As soon as he is dealt for a pitcher in the off season his stock will fall and he becomes just a guy who might hit.

Or am I just getting my Yankee & Red Sox hate on?

Toxeryll
07-09-2011, 10:33 PM
Something interesting that I noticed (well I thought it was interesting anyway) was Casey Kelly.

When he was a Red Sox prospect the sun literally shone out of his butt. He was ranked #22 prospect in all baseball by MiLB in January 2011 and was traded (with others) to San Diego for Adrian Gonzalez. 6 months later several prospects ranked above him have graduated to MLB but he's not a top 50 player any more? Surely he wasn't ranked high just because he's a Red Sox player?

And I still don't get the love for Jesus Montero. From everything I've read he's not a catcher, more like a 1B/DH player and that lowers his value enormously. As soon as he is dealt for a pitcher in the off season his stock will fall and he becomes just a guy who might hit.

Or am I just getting my Yankee & Red Sox hate on?

casey kelly had a bad year last year, thats probably why. and i agree with, montero is very overrated

Billyen
07-10-2011, 12:50 AM
Or am I just getting my Yankee & Red Sox hate on?

You can never have enough Yankee & Red Sox hate.

es0terik
07-10-2011, 03:49 PM
I can't believe that somebody is considering that a prospect made the rankings because of what team he was in the farm system for. LOL

FlakeyFool
07-11-2011, 01:25 PM
We could have drafted Trout

Kenny Powders
07-11-2011, 01:31 PM
^^ Along with about 20 other teams. And we took Chad Jenkins. :D

1hardcore
07-11-2011, 01:43 PM
So far none of them have come from the blue jays draft :(

Halladay
07-11-2011, 02:51 PM
Considering the guys age and where he's playing I'm actually surprised Lawrie isn't even higher up. If he stayed in the minors all year he'd probably make the top 5 if he kept that pace up.

bomber0104
07-11-2011, 03:02 PM
Something interesting that I noticed (well I thought it was interesting anyway) was Casey Kelly.

When he was a Red Sox prospect the sun literally shone out of his butt. He was ranked #22 prospect in all baseball by MiLB in January 2011 and was traded (with others) to San Diego for Adrian Gonzalez. 6 months later several prospects ranked above him have graduated to MLB but he's not a top 50 player any more? Surely he wasn't ranked high just because he's a Red Sox player?

And I still don't get the love for Jesus Montero. From everything I've read he's not a catcher, more like a 1B/DH player and that lowers his value enormously. As soon as he is dealt for a pitcher in the off season his stock will fall and he becomes just a guy who might hit.

Or am I just getting my Yankee & Red Sox hate on?

Haha.. i was saying this last year. The guy must have been the most overrated pitching prospect in the minors last year. I do believe a lot of it had to do with being on the Red Sox... funny thing is he is havign a better year than he did last year yet he dropped in the rankings.

its no scret that Red Sox and yankees prospects are overrated, Yankees more than Sox obviously since the Yankees never seem to actually have anyone live to their hype

wamco
07-11-2011, 06:08 PM
The mid-season update brings awesome news for Jays fans. With the mid-season prospect rankings posted, three of our players have jumped much higher on the list than where they were at before the season started.

Wouldn't every team's prospects jump much higher on the lists as some players have graduated from the list into MLB?

es0terik
07-11-2011, 07:10 PM
The mid-season update brings awesome news for Jays fans. With the mid-season prospect rankings posted, three of our players have jumped much higher on the list than where they were at before the season started.

Wouldn't every team's prospects jump much higher on the lists as some players have graduated from the list into MLB?

That's a really poorly thought-out post. Yeah players have graduated into the MLB. So what? How many of the top 50 have actually been promoted? Unless 30 or 40 of the top 50 players have been promoted to MLB, jumping as many ranks as those three players have is an achievement.

Billyen
07-11-2011, 08:28 PM
I can't believe that somebody is considering that a prospect made the rankings because of what team he was in the farm system for. LOL

You must be new to baseball.

wamco
07-11-2011, 10:16 PM
That's a really poorly thought-out post. Yeah players have graduated into the MLB. So what? How many of the top 50 have actually been promoted? Unless 30 or 40 of the top 50 players have been promoted to MLB, jumping as many ranks as those three players have is an achievement.

it's just common sense...players above you graduate, you move up the ranks, whether they be jays, rays, reds, etc.

The real question is....If the AL east powerhouse 3 continue to match our farm system, how do we close the gap in this situation.


Baseball America released its midseason list of the top 50 prospects in the game yesterday and Nationals outfield prospect Bryce Harper and Mike Trout, the recently-promoted Angels outfielder, remain the most highly-regarded prospects in baseball. Rays left-hander Matt Moore, Braves right-hander Julio Teheran and Orioles shortstop prospect Manny Machado round out the publication's top five (click here for a more detailed subscriber-only list).

The Rangers had four prospects in the top 50, more than any other club. The Rays, Yankees, Blue Jays, Royals, Braves, Diamondbacks and Dodgers all had three players on BA's list.


1 Bryce Harper, of, Nationals
2 Mike Trout, of, Angels
3 Matt Moore, lhp, Rays
4 Julio Teheran, rhp, Braves
5 Manny Machado, ss, Orioles
6 Martin Perez, lhp, Rangers
7 Shelby Miller, rhp, Cardinals
8 Jesus Montero, c, Yankees
9 Jameson Taillon, rhp, Pirates
10 Brett Lawrie, 3b, Blue Jays
11 Jacob Turner, rhp, Tigers
12 Jurickson Profar, ss, Rangers
13 Manny Banuelos, lhp, Yankees
14 Drew Pomeranz, lhp, Indians
15 Devin Mesoraco, c, Reds
16 Arodys Vizcaino, rhp, Braves
17 Wil Myers, of, Royals
18 Carlos Martinez, rhp, Cardinals
19 Tyler Skaggs, lhp, Diamondbacks
20 Desmond Jennings, of, Rays
21 Dee Gordon, ss, Dodgers
22 Hak-Ju Lee, ss, Rays
23 Jake Odorizzi, rhp, Royals
24 Aaron Hicks, of, Twins
25 Leonys Martin, of, Rangers
26 Dellin Betances, rhp, Yankees
27 Mike Montgomery, lhp, Royals
28 Wilin Rosario, c, Rockies
29 Travis d'Arnaud, c, Blue Jays
30 Matt Harvey, rhp, Mets
31 Jason Kipnis, 2b, Indians
32 Brett Jackson, of, Cubs
33 Gary Brown, of, Giants
34 Robbie Erlin, lhp, Rangers
35 Zack Wheeler, rhp, Giants
36 Kyle Gibson, rhp, Twins
37 Anthony Ranaudo, rhp, Red Sox
38 Taijuan Walker, rhp, Mariners
39 Zach Lee, rhp, Dodgers
40 Jarrod Parker, rhp, Diamondbacks
41 Jonathan Singleton, of/1b, Phillies
42 Brad Peacock, rhp, Nationals
43 Jarred Cosart, rhp, Phillies
44 Randall Delgado, rhp, Braves
45 Anthony Gose, cf, Blue Jays46 Nolan Arenado, 3b, Rockies
47 Allen Webster, rhp, Dodgers
48 Matt Szczur, of, Cubs
49 Jedd Gyorko, 3b, Padres
50 Paul Goldschmidt, 1b, Diamondbacks

wamco
07-11-2011, 10:34 PM
preseason, with bolded names of graduated that i see:

1. Bryce Harper, of, Nationals
2. Mike Trout, of, Angels
3. Jesus Montero, c, Yankees
4. Domonic Brown, of, Phillies
5. Julio Teheran, rhp, Braves
6. Jeremy Hellickson, rhp, Rays
7. Aroldis Chapman, lhp, Reds
8. Eric Hosmer, 1b, Royals
9. Mike Moustakas, 3b, Royals
10. Wil Myers, of/c, Royals
11. Jameson Taillon, rhp, Pirates
12. Dustin Ackley, 2b, Mariners
13. Shelby Miller, rhp, Cardinals
14. Manny Machado, ss, Orioles
15. Matt Moore, lhp, Rays
16. Michael Pineda, rhp, Mariners
17. Freddie Freeman, 1b, Braves
18. John Lamb, lhp, Royals
19. Mike Montgomery, lhp, Royals
20. Chris Sale, lhp, White Sox
21. Jacob Turner, rhp, Tigers
22. Desmond Jennings, of, Rays
23. Brandon Belt, 1b, Giants
24. Martin Perez, lhp, Rangers
25. Lonnie Chisenhall, 3b, Indians
26. Dee Gordon, ss, Dodgers
27. Chris Archer, rhp, Rays
28. Zach Britton, lhp, Orioles
29. Kyle Drabek, rhp, Blue Jays
30. Gary Sanchez, c, Yankees
31. Casey Kelly, rhp, Padres
32. Tyler Matzek, lhp, Rockies
33. Jarrod Parker, rhp, Diamondbacks
34. Kyle Gibson, rhp, Twins
35. Randall Delgado, rhp, Braves
36. Travis d'Arnaud, c, Blue Jays
37. Mike Minor, lhp, Braves 38. Brett Jackson, of, Cubs
39. Jonathan Singleton, 1b/of, Phillies
40. Brett Lawrie, 2b, Blue Jays
41. Manny Banuelos, lhp, Yankees
42. Jordan Lyles, rhp, Astros
43. Dellin Betances, rhp, Yankees
44. Jenrry Mejia, rhp, Mets
45. Aaron Hicks, of, Twins
46. Tony Sanchez, c, Pirates
47. Alex White, rhp, Indians
48. Trey McNutt, rhp, Cubs
49. Wilin Rosario, c, Rockies
50. Billy Hamilton, ss/2b, Reds

ILDD
07-12-2011, 07:17 AM
preseason, with bolded names of graduated that i see:

1. Bryce Harper, of, Nationals
2. Mike Trout, of, Angels
3. Jesus Montero, c, Yankees
4. Domonic Brown, of, Phillies
5. Julio Teheran, rhp, Braves
6. Jeremy Hellickson, rhp, Rays
7. Aroldis Chapman, lhp, Reds
8. Eric Hosmer, 1b, Royals
9. Mike Moustakas, 3b, Royals
10. Wil Myers, of/c, Royals
11. Jameson Taillon, rhp, Pirates
12. Dustin Ackley, 2b, Mariners
13. Shelby Miller, rhp, Cardinals
14. Manny Machado, ss, Orioles
15. Matt Moore, lhp, Rays
16. Michael Pineda, rhp, Mariners
17. Freddie Freeman, 1b, Braves
18. John Lamb, lhp, Royals
19. Mike Montgomery, lhp, Royals
20. Chris Sale, lhp, White Sox
21. Jacob Turner, rhp, Tigers
22. Desmond Jennings, of, Rays
23. Brandon Belt, 1b, Giants
24. Martin Perez, lhp, Rangers
25. Lonnie Chisenhall, 3b, Indians
26. Dee Gordon, ss, Dodgers
27. Chris Archer, rhp, Rays
28. Zach Britton, lhp, Orioles
29. Kyle Drabek, rhp, Blue Jays
30. Gary Sanchez, c, Yankees
31. Casey Kelly, rhp, Padres
32. Tyler Matzek, lhp, Rockies
33. Jarrod Parker, rhp, Diamondbacks
34. Kyle Gibson, rhp, Twins
35. Randall Delgado, rhp, Braves
36. Travis d'Arnaud, c, Blue Jays
37. Mike Minor, lhp, Braves
38. Brett Jackson, of, Cubs
39. Jonathan Singleton, 1b/of, Phillies
40. Brett Lawrie, 2b, Blue Jays
41. Manny Banuelos, lhp, Yankees
42. Jordan Lyles, rhp, Astros
43. Dellin Betances, rhp, Yankees
44. Jenrry Mejia, rhp, Mets
45. Aaron Hicks, of, Twins
46. Tony Sanchez, c, Pirates
47. Alex White, rhp, Indians
48. Trey McNutt, rhp, Cubs
49. Wilin Rosario, c, Rockies
50. Billy Hamilton, ss/2b, Reds

But you have to remember that 2011 draftees are inserted, along with International Free Agents and the numbers normally just about balance.

Added to the list above are Anthony Rendon, Dylan Bundy, Trevor Bauer, Gerrit Cole, Bubba Starling, Danny Hultzen, Leonys Martin & Archie Bradley.

I count 14 graduated and 8 inserted so while you would expect several to move up it's not as obvious as you'd think, an average of only 6 places not 14.

With this in mind, D'Arnaud has risen about what you'd expect, slightly more but Gose and Lawrie in particular have shot up the rankings.

wamco
07-12-2011, 08:11 AM
eh, not saying its not good news, but people shouldn't think of it in a vacuum where only the jays have prospects, the other AL east powerhouses have very good systems as well. Prospects 30-50 generally could be interchangable in many people's opinions as well, not to mention the high bust rate in general of prospects.

T.O. Fan
07-12-2011, 09:12 AM
It's been awhile since the Jays could consistantly compete with the Yankees, Red Sox and Rays with top prospects, so the fact they are in the same conversation now shows encouraging progress.

es0terik
07-12-2011, 01:02 PM
eh, not saying its not good news, but people shouldn't think of it in a vacuum where only the jays have prospects, the other AL east powerhouses have very good systems as well. Prospects 30-50 generally could be interchangable in many people's opinions as well, not to mention the high bust rate in general of prospects.
Yes you were saying it's not good news, or at least were trying to make a very strong case against it. Who here said that only the Jays had prospects? Nobody did. We don't care about the prospects in the other leagues, this article and this post was to celebrate the JAYS players moving up in the rankings. Nobody said other players didn't move up too.

On top of that, you basically proved exactly what I was saying. I acknowledged the fact that players had been promoted, but I also noted that there was no way that the amount of prospects promoted matched the jump in rankings. 14 players were moved up to the big leagues. 14 out of 50. So while D'Arnaud's jump from 36 to 29 wasn't as impressive, what about Lawrie? Lawrie jumped from 40 to 10. That's not an impressive move? What about Gose? A guy who didn't even crack top 100 just a few months ago is now ranked 45.

es0terik
07-12-2011, 01:03 PM
I really hate when people pick up arguments over nothing, where there really isn't a need for one. Do you really have nothing better to do than to challenge every thread for no reason? Like seriously, it was just a thread made to congratulate three of our prospects, and after making a useless troll first post to the thread, you come back later and try to undermine their accomplishments.

broncosfan_101
07-12-2011, 02:10 PM
Also, most of the Yankees top prospects are having down years. Banuelos has some command issues, Montero is striking out more/walking less/hitting for much less power, and Brackman has ONE more K than BB in 65 innings this year. We've taken a significant step past them this year. Even Sanchez isn't dominating like predicted.

It's too bad Matt Moore has become the best pitcher in the minors...facing him a few times every year is gonna suck balls.

wamco
07-12-2011, 04:47 PM
fangraphs.com


A Dose of Reality for Prospect Watchersby Erik Manning - September 10, 2009

All of the minor league regular seasons are officially over, and it will soon be one of my favorite seasons of the year — prospect evaluation and ranking time. I personally love reading the various scouting reports and rankings; I devour it as much of it as I can stand. Now excuse me while I become a wet blanket.

I think as we look at minor league stats and read scouting reports, if we are not careful we can get rose-colored glasses when it comes to our outlook of the future of these players. The truth is most of these players we find ourselves pulling for simply won’t ever make it.

Victor Wang has done some tremendous research about prospects and their value. In determining their value he had to find the rate of which players bust in each category he divided them into. This is a healthy dose of realism to keep in mind when we’re looking at the any one club’s farm system.

* 10% of top 10 hitting prospects bust.
* 31% of top 10 pitching prospects bust.
* 21% of top 11-25 hitting prospects bust.
* 32% of top 11-25 pitching prospects bust.
* 35% of top 26-50 hitting prospects bust.
* 33% of top 26-50 pitching prospects bust.
* 45% of top 51-75 hitting prospects bust.
* 39% of top 51-75 pitching prospects bust.
* 43% of top 76-100 hitting prospects bust.
* 43% of top 76-100 pitching prospects bust.
* 59% of ‘B grade’ hitting prospects bust.
* 52% of ‘B grade’ pitching prospects bust.
* 83% of ‘C grade’ hitting prospects bust.
* Around 75% of all ‘C grade’ pitching prospects bust.

Top 100 prospects are Baseball America’s. B and C grades are as ranked by prospect wonk John Sickels.

Top ten hitting prospects are just about can’t miss. Not all of them reach the level of stardom, but they seldom fail to bring value to a team. Going on down the line, the rates of attrition obviously get higher and higher. I find the failure rates among top pitchers to be striking, and it’s interesting to see how things even out between hitters and pitchers as you go down the grades.

This isn’t anything really new, but it is something to keep in mind when reading these rankings. Reading some reports you would be almost led to believe that even the majority of C grade hitting or pitching prospects will end up being at least a major league utility players or a middle relievers, but that’s simply not the case.

Feel free to soak up all the prospect hype you can find, but always take it with a grain of salt.

wamco
07-12-2011, 04:48 PM
The real question is....If the AL east powerhouse 3 continue to match our farm system, how do we close the gap in this situation.

broncosfan_101
07-12-2011, 05:23 PM
The real question is....If the AL east powerhouse 3 continue to match our farm system, how do we close the gap in this situation.

Easy. We outspend the Yankees and the Red Sox in free agency...that'll be easier and more cost-effective than trying to build and develop better farm systems than them.

#Ifeeldumberforevensayingthissarcastically

wamco
07-12-2011, 05:32 PM
The real question is....If the AL east powerhouse 3 continue to match our farm system, how do we close the gap in this situation.

fatkev78
07-12-2011, 05:41 PM
fangraphs.com


A Dose of Reality for Prospect Watchersby Erik Manning - September 10, 2009

All of the minor league regular seasons are officially over, and it will soon be one of my favorite seasons of the year — prospect evaluation and ranking time. I personally love reading the various scouting reports and rankings; I devour it as much of it as I can stand. Now excuse me while I become a wet blanket.

I think as we look at minor league stats and read scouting reports, if we are not careful we can get rose-colored glasses when it comes to our outlook of the future of these players. The truth is most of these players we find ourselves pulling for simply won’t ever make it.

Victor Wang has done some tremendous research about prospects and their value. In determining their value he had to find the rate of which players bust in each category he divided them into. This is a healthy dose of realism to keep in mind when we’re looking at the any one club’s farm system.

* 10% of top 10 hitting prospects bust.
* 31% of top 10 pitching prospects bust.
* 21% of top 11-25 hitting prospects bust.
* 32% of top 11-25 pitching prospects bust.
* 35% of top 26-50 hitting prospects bust.
* 33% of top 26-50 pitching prospects bust.
* 45% of top 51-75 hitting prospects bust.
* 39% of top 51-75 pitching prospects bust.
* 43% of top 76-100 hitting prospects bust.
* 43% of top 76-100 pitching prospects bust.
* 59% of ‘B grade’ hitting prospects bust.
* 52% of ‘B grade’ pitching prospects bust.
* 83% of ‘C grade’ hitting prospects bust.
* Around 75% of all ‘C grade’ pitching prospects bust.

Top 100 prospects are Baseball America’s. B and C grades are as ranked by prospect wonk John Sickels.

Top ten hitting prospects are just about can’t miss. Not all of them reach the level of stardom, but they seldom fail to bring value to a team. Going on down the line, the rates of attrition obviously get higher and higher. I find the failure rates among top pitchers to be striking, and it’s interesting to see how things even out between hitters and pitchers as you go down the grades.

This isn’t anything really new, but it is something to keep in mind when reading these rankings. Reading some reports you would be almost led to believe that even the majority of C grade hitting or pitching prospects will end up being at least a major league utility players or a middle relievers, but that’s simply not the case.

Feel free to soak up all the prospect hype you can find, but always take it with a grain of salt.

How many times are you going to post this?

North Yorker
07-12-2011, 05:42 PM
The real question is....If the AL east powerhouse 3 continue to match our farm system, how do we close the gap in this situation.

We count on our core players developing and improving while the Sox and Yanks core age and decline.

And plus if there is a WC added next year we dont have to outplay all 3, just one of them.

I for one am satisfied with our situation going forward. A top 2 or 3 farm along with a top 3 GM, with a core of players locked up at well below market value, with ownership willing to spend heavy in player development and on FAs when it's time.

We have the same financial flexibility as the Yanks and Sox as we could potentially add $60M to our payroll over the next few years. And we have just as much trade ammo as the Rays with our deep farm, and also a GM who probably hasnt "lost" on a trade yet.

No need to be pessimistic about our situation. We cant control what our division rivals do.

wamco
07-12-2011, 06:06 PM
you also can't forget about what your rivals do in relation to the "all is freaking awesome" scenario. Obviously, the latter parts of your post regarding payroll is the key to the whole operation. Unfortunately, we are at a "i'll believe it when I see it" zone.

We've heard about the yanks/sox getting old for 10 years now along with "their system is completely bare" and yet year after year they score more runs, have better records and rate high on prospect rankings and/or trade their prospects for better players than we do.

wolverine
07-12-2011, 06:15 PM
wamco how do you ever quench your thirst when your glass is always half empty?

North Yorker
07-12-2011, 06:17 PM
you also can't forget about what your rivals do in relation to the "all is freaking awesome" scenario. Obviously, the latter parts of your post regarding payroll is the key to the whole operation. Unfortunately, we are at a "i'll believe it when I see it" zone.

.

We have already seen it through the draft and international FA signings. Didnt we spend a record amount last year in the draft? Werent we in it till the end on Chapman? Didnt we sign like 4 of the top 10 IFAs this year and go over slot on like 3/4 our early picks in the draft?


We've heard about the yanks/sox getting old for 10 years now along with "their system is completely bare" and yet year after year they score more runs, have better records and rate high on prospect rankings and/or trade their prospects for better players than we do

If you want to dwell on how badly Ricciardi mis-managed money and assets 8 of the last 10 years then fine, but I believe AA's gameplan will be a lot more successful (see his trades/signings/collecting assets/etc)

wamco
07-12-2011, 06:28 PM
wamco how do you ever quench your thirst when your glass is always half empty?

so the predictable non-answer to the question.

wamco
07-12-2011, 06:32 PM
We have already seen it through the draft and international FA signings. Didnt we spend a record amount last year in the draft?

-Of course, after cheaping out and not paying the top players last year thusly resulting in more picks to pay this year. Do I really have to explain that?

Werent we in it till the end on Chapman?

-Yes we were one of the 7 or so interested teams that came up over 5M short on Chapman which may not have been the wrong decision.


Didnt we sign like 4 of the top 10 IFAs this year

-we did?


and go over slot on like 3/4 our early picks in the draft?

-so what? Don't the sox and yanks do these things as well?


If you want to dwell on how badly Ricciardi mis-managed money and assets 8 of the last 10 years then fine, but I believe AA's gameplan will be a lot more successful (see his trades/signings/collecting assets/etc)

AA is a better GM than JP, much better IMO. Baseball america did rank the jays drafts of the 00's as "above average" and of those prospects JP traded away very few, if any, impact prospects and yet it was deemed that we needed a complete rebuild.

wamco
07-12-2011, 06:34 PM
I like the part where he said the AL east teams have matching farm systems to the Jays. Can we see that part again? It was the funniest.

what exactly is funny about it? Unless you find the truth to be funny, that is.

wamco
07-12-2011, 06:38 PM
baseball america dummy


1.Kansas City Royals
2. Tampa Bay Rays
3. Atlanta Braves
4. Toronto Blue Jays
5. New York Yankees
6. Cincinnati Reds
7. Cleveland Indians
8. San Diego Padres
9. Colorado Rockies
10. Philadelphia Phillies
11. Los Angeles Dodgers
12. Minnesota Twins
13. Washington Nationals
14. Texas Rangers
15. Los Angeles Angels
16. Chicago Cubs
17. Boston Red Sox
18. Seattle Mariners
19. Pittsburgh Pirates
20. New York Mets
21. Baltimore Orioles
22. Arizona Diamondbacks
23. San Francisco Giants
24. St. Louis Cardinals
25. Detroit Tigers
26. Houston Astros
27. Chicago White Sox
28. Oakland Athletics
29. Florida Marlins
30. Milwaukee Brewers

North Yorker
07-12-2011, 06:38 PM
^ Cheap out? lol so you would rather us re-sign Buck, Downs, Olivo, etc instead of gaining multiple high picks in a great draft?? You sir, are impossible.

Billyen
07-12-2011, 08:01 PM
Wamco wants us to spend on FAs or get talent. I see his point as at some point we need to start winning, not just drool about our prospects. I'm fine with a rebuild but great prospects or a good farm don't mean wins, especially in the EAST.

To prove the point look at the team on top of BA list and then see were they are in the less competitive central. Even I thought with all that talent, they'd do better. Now they're in line for a #3 draft pick.

I believe in AA and think we are 3 months away from the most important off-season in 20 years. The Jays need to improve in FA or via trade (taking on expensive talent) . Jose MUST get real protection and we need a real "lightsout" ace.

I think AA will shock everyone in a few months and Rogers will start making move$. AA's trying to build not just for 1 or 2 years but 10. Just 11 more wins puts in first place. EE cost us 6 games himself. the other bunch 5-10 games-we all saw the plays. We are 6th in runs, yet if you take out Jose... where are we? You add another Jose and where are we then? We are 12th in OBP now with the ML walks leader.

Once you get 2-3 OBP/HR guys the other parts of the line up see better pitchs. I've seen this with the Yanks and Soxs over the years. They add good players Granderson, Martin and they become much better players. Now the other team give the solo HR from Jose and then they face EE, Rivera and get 2 outs. I think Lawrie and Loewen with thier high OBP will really change this teams lineup.

I think AA knows you just can't have the best farm and collect your WS ring. He's going to do good thing in the next 6 months.

T.O. Fan
07-12-2011, 09:05 PM
I honestly believe that with the new playoff format coming that the Jays don't have to necessarily be better than the Yankees, Red Sox or Rays over the course of the regular season. All they'll have to do is be better than 1 of them and as I stated earlier the gap is already closing from the bottom up with the Jays ranked right there with the Rays and Yankees for farm systems.

You build a house from the bottom up.

It's coming.

wamco
07-12-2011, 10:44 PM
Wamco wants us to spend on FAs or get talent. I see his point as at some point we need to start winning, not just drool about our prospects. I'm fine with a rebuild but great prospects or a good farm don't mean wins, especially in the EAST.

To prove the point look at the team on top of BA list and then see were they are in the less competitive central. Even I thought with all that talent, they'd do better. Now they're in line for a #3 draft pick.

I believe in AA and think we are 3 months away from the most important off-season in 20 years. The Jays need to improve in FA or via trade (taking on expensive talent) . Jose MUST get real protection and we need a real "lightsout" ace.

I think AA will shock everyone in a few months and Rogers will start making move$. AA's trying to build not just for 1 or 2 years but 10. Just 11 more wins puts in first place. EE cost us 6 games himself. the other bunch 5-10 games-we all saw the plays. We are 6th in runs, yet if you take out Jose... where are we? You add another Jose and where are we then? We are 12th in OBP now with the ML walks leader.

Once you get 2-3 OBP/HR guys the other parts of the line up see better pitchs. I've seen this with the Yanks and Soxs over the years. They add good players Granderson, Martin and they become much better players. Now the other team give the solo HR from Jose and then they face EE, Rivera and get 2 outs. I think Lawrie and Loewen with thier high OBP will really change this teams lineup.

I think AA knows you just can't have the best farm and collect your WS ring. He's going to do good thing in the next 6 months.



-I hope you are right and we drop some big time money into the team. To clarify, I also want to draft the best players available AND sign them. Many times offering arby to get a draft pick is the obvious right move.

wamco
07-12-2011, 10:45 PM
I honestly believe that with the new playoff format coming that the Jays don't have to necessarily be better than the Yankees, Red Sox or Rays over the course of the regular season. All they'll have to do is be better than 1 of them and as I stated earlier the gap is already closing from the bottom up with the Jays ranked right there with the Rays and Yankees for farm systems.


-We certainly may catch a break in that regard (division/playoff system if it happens.


You build a house from the bottom up.

It's coming.

-all teams draft the best they can. Now slot/overslot is a whole other ballgame. The bills keep preaching this mantra as well "build through the draft". Well, no crap, all teams do that.

wamco
07-12-2011, 10:51 PM
I didn't get through all of that. You bore me. And also because I've seen you post it on like 9 other occasions.



I like the part where he said the AL east teams have matching farm systems to the Jays. :p Can we see that part again? It was the funniest. :clap:

Didnt we sign like 4 of the top 10 IFAs this year

-Please let us know who these 4 top 10 IFA's this year were. Then explain what was so funny about bos, tb and nyy having comparable farm systems, even showed you baseball americas ratings (after the adrian gonzalez trade btw)

T.O. Fan
07-12-2011, 11:19 PM
IMO, if I wanted to model my franchise after any organization it would be the Red Sox over both the Yankees and Rays.

The Red Sox have proven they can draft and develop home grown talent while still being able to spend keep them on the team and to plug holes.

When you have that organizational depth and the ability to pay to keep / add to your core you give yourself every opportunity to win year in and year out.

I think this is the model the Jays are working towards. They're spending the money to boost the scouting/development staff, and build the farm system. They've spent the money to lock up core players in Bautista, Romero, Lind, Escobar.

It's just going to take time for this group to continue to build towards that.

wamco
07-13-2011, 07:22 AM
I concur. I'd put the bautista signing and signing guys through their arby years in completely different ballparks though.

wamco
07-13-2011, 07:52 AM
[QUOTE=T.O. Fan;18531639]I honestly believe that with the new playoff format coming that the Jays don't have to necessarily be better than the Yankees, Red Sox or Rays over the course of the regular season. All they'll have to do is be better than 1 of them and as I stated earlier the gap is already closing from the bottom up with the Jays ranked right there with the Rays and Yankees for farm systems.

-Hopefully the players get their way on this issue.

Selig said that he was not interested in radical realignment that would eliminate divisions or make major alterations to the leagues, but it was possible one team could move from the NL to the AL to leave each league with 15 teams. Because the 2012 draft schedule already has been completed, that likely could not occur before 2013 at the earliest. The downside would be that interleague games—which drew 18.3 percent more fans than other games—would have to be spread throughout the regular season.

“Is there massive realignment on the horizon? No there is not,” he said. “Would I go to 15 and 15? I don’t know. … You would then have to play interleague play every day obviously, and I like it the way it is.”

North Yorker
07-13-2011, 08:06 AM
now, dummy, you are just making no sense. We're talking about cheaping out on signing the top draft picks the year prior thusly leading to a large amount spent the next year on the draft and you can't follow obviously as you are talking about buck, downs, and olivo for who knows what reason.

It's ironic that you're calling be a dummy. What "top picks" did we fail to sign in 2010 which led us to having a record amount of draft choices in this past draft?
The only recent high pick that comes to mind that we didnt sign was Paxton and IIRC that was when JP was still GM. And what about paying $1.5M for a 5th rounder? Is that showing not willingness to spend? Every team "cheaps out" then I guess by your standards, the Yanks failed to sign Gerrit Cole, the Red Sox failed to sign R.Romero and Teixeira.

We had a record amount of choices because of the comp. picks we got from not signing Gregg, Downs, Buck, and Olivo, the year before it was Scutaro and Barajas. We are getting lots of high picks because AA is taking advantage of a flawed system, not because we are cheaping out. I would rather they take lots of high talent tough signs and sign half of them rather then them play it safe and end up with a low amount of high ceiling specs.

Good luck next time trying to make a point.

Spiderdan22
07-13-2011, 09:52 AM
It's ironic that you're calling be a dummy. What "top picks" did we fail to sign in 2010 which led us to having a record amount of draft choices in this past draft?
The only recent high pick that comes to mind that we didnt sign was Paxton and IIRC that was when JP was still GM. And what about paying $1.5M for a 5th rounder? Is that showing not willingness to spend? Every team "cheaps out" then I guess by your standards, the Yanks failed to sign Gerrit Cole, the Red Sox failed to sign R.Romero and Teixeira.

We had a record amount of choices because of the comp. picks we got from not signing Gregg, Downs, Buck, and Olivo, the year before it was Scutaro and Barajas. We are getting lots of high picks because AA is taking advantage of a flawed system, not because we are cheaping out. I would rather they take lots of high talent tough signs and sign half of them rather then them play it safe and end up with a low amount of high ceiling specs.

Good luck next time trying to make a point.

Oh Snap! Burn!

JaysFan87
07-13-2011, 10:02 AM
I honestly believe that with the new playoff format coming that the Jays don't have to necessarily be better than the Yankees, Red Sox or Rays over the course of the regular season. All they'll have to do is be better than 1 of them and as I stated earlier the gap is already closing from the bottom up with the Jays ranked right there with the Rays and Yankees for farm systems.

-Hopefully the players get their way on this issue.

Selig said that he was not interested in radical realignment that would eliminate divisions or make major alterations to the leagues, but it was possible one team could move from the NL to the AL to leave each league with 15 teams. Because the 2012 draft schedule already has been completed, that likely could not occur before 2013 at the earliest. The downside would be that interleague games—which drew 18.3 percent more fans than other games—would have to be spread throughout the regular season.

“Is there massive realignment on the horizon? No there is not,” he said. “Would I go to 15 and 15? I don’t know. … You would then have to play interleague play every day obviously, and I like it the way it is.”

Firstly I dont understand how you cant quote a single post correctly yet. Secondly....

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/07/12/davidi_column_changes/



Two more playoff teams in 2012 are on the way – "I like the chances," said Selig – and both sides seem intent on a minor realignment of the leagues to an even 15-15 split. Adjustments to the draft, tweaking the economic system, a revamped schedule and more instant replay – coming soon, likely on balls down the line – are other matters in play.


"Everybody knows historically why we have 16-14, but in a sense it would be akin to having the U.S. Open tennis tournament with a different number of entrants on one side of the draw as opposed to the other," argued Weiner. "Nobody would stand for that. The best reason for 15-15 is that everybody would have four competitors within their division and everybody would have the same number of competitors for the wild card position."


Two more playoff teams in 2012 are on the way – "I like the chances," said Selig – and both sides seem intent on a minor realignment of the leagues to an even 15-15 split. Adjustments to the draft, tweaking the economic system, a revamped schedule and more instant replay – coming soon, likely on balls down the line – are other matters in play.



A by-product of such a switch would be the need for at least one interleague series all season long to keep all the teams playing. That has led to the suggestion that either the NL also adopt the DH, or that the AL eliminate it, but that doesn’t seem to be on the table.

"You would have to have a discussion about the DH if you were going to greatly increase the number of interleague play games," said Weiner. "The ideas that are being discussed now, if we were to reach agreement on a changed schedule, would not greatly change the number of interleague play games, so there hasn’t been serious talk about modifications to the DH."

One possible tweak to interleague play is that AL parks would play under NL rules and vice-versa, an idea Selig said merited some examination to add more intrigue for fans.

As complicated as those issues are, finding common ground on a revamped draft system – including a firm slotting system for player bonuses – the creation of an international draft and an adjustment to the revenue sharing system should prove even tougher.

It is on those areas where the gap between the sides may be widest.

"The objective of the draft is to level the playing field, to be fair," said Selig. "That's what I like about the international draft. All the competitive balance, parity, whatever you want to call it, I really think we ought to do as much as we can to go back internationally – and domestically – and make it fair so that 3-7 teams don't have an inherently huge advantage over everybody else. I feel very strongly about that."

So do some players, who dislike seeing unproven youngsters receive huge signing bonuses eating into the salary pie every player must share in.

Yet the concept of a cap in salaries is one the union is patently against.

I dont know about you but it definitely looks like a 15-15 league, 2 wildcard spots and interleague throughout the year is going to happen.

es0terik
07-13-2011, 10:19 AM
Didnt we sign like 4 of the top 10 IFAs this year

-Please let us know who these 4 top 10 IFA's this year were. Then explain what was so funny about bos, tb and nyy having comparable farm systems, even showed you baseball americas ratings (after the adrian gonzalez trade btw)

What are you bolding? You quote my post, and then you bold a sentence that I never even wrote...

es0terik
07-13-2011, 10:20 AM
Oh Snap! Burn!

lmao that's exactly what I said when I read that post.

bartron_44
07-13-2011, 05:47 PM
Soooo...anyone want to get back to talking about the top 50?

Here's a question...

How many Blue Jays (and who) do you think will be on the BA top 100 list at seasons end?

My picks:

Lawrie-easy money on that pick I think

Drabek- His stock will fall hard unless he rebounds in the second half imo. But I think he stays in top 100.

Gose- on pace to steal over 60 bases this year, with an OBP over .350, and playing a great CF on the best team in the Eastern League at the age of 20.

Molina- He deserves it after the season he has had.

D'Arnaud- Raking in AA with great D, Yes.

McDade- I hope he makes it. He is having a breakout season imo.

Alvarez - throwing almost 100 mph with movement.....He better be.

Hutchison - He sounds very similar to Hellickson. Hellickson was very highly rated, so I can't see why hutch couldn't possibly break the top 100 by seasons end with the year he is having.


Cooper- bash me on this one if you can find a way, but Cooper is hitting .375 with an OPS over 1.000, and is on pace for over 50 doubles. He and Lawrie are the only 2 guys in their first look at the PCL OPS'ing over 1.000 . There are only 10 players in total right now, and most are seasoned vets of that league.



Guys that may be deserving soon:


Marisnick - He is a 5 tool player playing very well this year, I am interested to see if he
cracks the list.

Deck-He should be in AA before the year is over. looking very good in his first pro season...don't think the critics like his supposed ceiling as a #3, so we shall see.

Jimenez - mid season all-star in the FSL, and is on the verge of hitting over .300 with 15+ SB's from the catcher position. That will be 2 years in a row he has been promoted a level and hit over .300. He's good, but I doubt he cracks the top 100 unless he hits about 25 more doubles and 8 or 9 HR's in the second half.

Syndergaard - 19 year old throwing 97 with a 5:1 K/BB

Nicolino - left hander with an ERA of 1.13 so far , throwing in the mid 90's..

Toxeryll
07-13-2011, 06:30 PM
^does drabek still count as a prospect? if he still is i would think hes still in top 100.

I think the good bets are:
1) Lawrie
2) D'arnaud
3) Gose
4) Alvarez
5) Hutchison
6) Marisnick

I think Molina is kinda unknown yet so he might not get the recognition. I doubt Mcdade, Deck and Jimenez make it. I'd like to see Syndergaard make it.

13Lawrie13
07-13-2011, 09:43 PM
^does drabek still count as a prospect? if he still is i would think hes still in top 100.

I think the good bets are:
1) Lawrie
2) D'arnaud
3) Gose
4) Alvarez
5) Hutchison
6) Marisnick

I think Molina is kinda unknown yet so he might not get the recognition. I doubt Mcdade, Deck and Jimenez make it. I'd like to see Syndergaard make it.

I think Drabek has "graduated".

Anyways, I'm almost positive Lawrie, D'Arnaud, Gose and Marisnick will be assuming none of them "graduate" by then, which is a definite possibility with Lawrie.

If I were a betting man, I would place my money on;

1) Lawrie
2) D'Arnaud
3) Gose
4) Marisnick
5) Hutchison
6) Alvarez (Jim Callis is pretty low on him; see the prospects thread for more details)
7) Molina (he should be, but I'm not sure how well known he is)

wamco
07-13-2011, 11:17 PM
It's ironic that you're calling be a dummy. What "top picks" did we fail to sign in 2010 which led us to having a record amount of draft choices in this past draft?


-Look it up, not sure how you can't remember this happening.


The only recent high pick that comes to mind that we didnt sign was Paxton and IIRC that was when JP was still GM.

-Again, look it up, AA's boss handled the negotiations that led to cheaping out and not paying the top picks, not JP.



Good luck next time trying to make a point.

-:facepalm:

wamco
07-13-2011, 11:18 PM
I dont know about you but it definitely looks like a 15-15 league, 2 wildcard spots and interleague throughout the year is going to happen.[/QUOTE]

-I hope so.

bomber0104
07-14-2011, 12:16 AM
I think Drabek has "graduated".

Anyways, I'm almost positive Lawrie, D'Arnaud, Gose and Marisnick will be assuming none of them "graduate" by then, which is a definite possibility with Lawrie.

If I were a betting man, I would place my money on;

1) Lawrie
2) D'Arnaud
3) Gose
4) Marisnick
5) Hutchison
6) Alvarez (Jim Callis is pretty low on him; see the prospects thread for more details)
7) Molina (he should be, but I'm not sure how well known he is)

ur missing Mcguire.. he was on the list before he even pitched an inning and he has pitched very well this year

cdsouz01
07-14-2011, 02:52 AM
So far none of them have come from the blue jays draft :(

no, but remember RickRo, Cecil, Lind, Snider, Thames, Hill, Janssen and Arencibia all were drafted by the Jays. Its tough to have an entire team come from your picks, but when you are able to mix this lot in with Free agents and guys acquired in trades, you can build a helluva team

Nofear
07-14-2011, 06:07 AM
Soooo...anyone want to get back to talking about the top 50?

Here's a question...

How many Blue Jays (and who) do you think will be on the BA top 100 list at seasons end?

My picks:

Lawrie-easy money on that pick I think

Drabek- His stock will fall hard unless he rebounds in the second half imo. But I think he stays in top 100.

Gose- on pace to steal over 60 bases this year, with an OBP over .350, and playing a great CF on the best team in the Eastern League at the age of 20.

Molina- He deserves it after the season he has had.

D'Arnaud- Raking in AA with great D, Yes.

McDade- I hope he makes it. He is having a breakout season imo.

Alvarez - throwing almost 100 mph with movement.....He better be.

Hutchison - He sounds very similar to Hellickson. Hellickson was very highly rated, so I can't see why hutch couldn't possibly break the top 100 by seasons end with the year he is having.


Cooper- bash me on this one if you can find a way, but Cooper is hitting .375 with an OPS over 1.000, and is on pace for over 50 doubles. He and Lawrie are the only 2 guys in their first look at the PCL OPS'ing over 1.000 . There are only 10 players in total right now, and most are seasoned vets of that league.



Guys that may be deserving soon:


Marisnick - He is a 5 tool player playing very well this year, I am interested to see if he
cracks the list.

Deck-He should be in AA before the year is over. looking very good in his first pro season...don't think the critics like his supposed ceiling as a #3, so we shall see.

Jimenez - mid season all-star in the FSL, and is on the verge of hitting over .300 with 15+ SB's from the catcher position. That will be 2 years in a row he has been promoted a level and hit over .300. He's good, but I doubt he cracks the top 100 unless he hits about 25 more doubles and 8 or 9 HR's in the second half.

Syndergaard - 19 year old throwing 97 with a 5:1 K/BB

Nicolino - left hander with an ERA of 1.13 so far , throwing in the mid 90's..


^does drabek still count as a prospect? if he still is i would think hes still in top 100.

I think the good bets are:
1) Lawrie
2) D'arnaud
3) Gose
4) Alvarez
5) Hutchison
6) Marisnick

I think Molina is kinda unknown yet so he might not get the recognition. I doubt Mcdade, Deck and Jimenez make it. I'd like to see Syndergaard make it.


I think Drabek has "graduated".

Anyways, I'm almost positive Lawrie, D'Arnaud, Gose and Marisnick will be assuming none of them "graduate" by then, which is a definite possibility with Lawrie.

If I were a betting man, I would place my money on;

1) Lawrie
2) D'Arnaud
3) Gose
4) Marisnick
5) Hutchison
6) Alvarez (Jim Callis is pretty low on him; see the prospects thread for more details)
7) Molina (he should be, but I'm not sure how well known he is)

Deck is already 95 on the top 100 and none of you have him on your list. Does he somehow get worse in the last month? Makes no sense or you guys are just talking out your ***** either way, all your lists are complete fails for skipping a guy who's already on it.

bartron_44
07-14-2011, 07:46 AM
^^oops ..I thought he should be there, but at a quick glance missed him at the bottom.

But, with all the guys I hope we add to the list that aren't currently there, he could get bumped down the list without getting "worse". Just because other people get better, doesn't mean he had to get worse.From our team alone I am hoping 3 guys crack that list. He has had a great season, but you just never know with these lists.

13Lawrie13
07-14-2011, 07:49 AM
Deck is already 95 on the top 100 and none of you have him on your list. Does he somehow get worse in the last month? Makes no sense or you guys are just talking out your ***** either way, all your lists are complete fails for skipping a guy who's already on it.

Woah, woah, woah.

Calm down. I forget about him, okay?

How old are you, 3? It's not the end of the world.

Go find you soother and go back to sleep.

StayOnBoard
07-14-2011, 08:37 AM
Woah, woah, woah.

Calm down. I forget about him, okay?

How old are you, 3? It's not the end of the world.

Go find you soother and go back to sleep.

Don't mind him - you'll get used to his useless posts over time (or add him to ignore like I did)

As for our top prospects, IMO it goes like this:
1) Lawrie
2) D'Arnaud
3) Gose

Top 3 are no brainers. Drabek would be here too but Im not sure he's still considered a "prospect"

4) Alvarez (I think I like him more than most)
5) McGuire

Honorable mention: Marisnick, Syndergaard and McDade (who I think will be an AAAA player - for the record. But can't knock him for what he's doing right now)

ILDD
07-14-2011, 06:13 PM
Keith Law's updated top 50 list is interesting...

9 Brett Lawrie 3B 6-0 213 Toronto Blue Jays
Analysis: Lawrie hasn't played since May 31 after he was hit on the hand by a pitch just a day before he was going to be called up to the majors. He still profiles as an impact bat who might have to move to right field. Preseason Ranking: 37

20 Travis D'Arnaud C 6-2 195 Toronto Blue Jays
Analysis: The offensive breakout finally happened this year with a .315/.388/.552 line in New Hampshire -- and he's actually been better on the road. It's All-Star production at that position if he can just stay healthy. Preseason Ranking: NR

39 Henderson Alvarez RHP 6-1 195 Toronto Blue Jays
Analysis: Alvarez has No. 1 starter stuff, but as with Casey Kelly, the results don't quite line up with the scouting report. He's hit 100 mph as a starter and already has a plus changeup, but there's effort in that delivery, and he has to show he can miss more bats. Preseason Ranking: NR

48 Drew Hutchison RHP 6-2 165 Toronto Blue Jays
Analysis: He has run it up to 95 but is pitching with more of a solid-average fastball. He's more impressive because of his feel for pitching and fastball command, but he has the projection to throw harder. Preseason Ranking: NR

Nofear
07-14-2011, 06:29 PM
^^oops ..I thought he should be there, but at a quick glance missed him at the bottom.

But, with all the guys I hope we add to the list that aren't currently there, he could get bumped down the list without getting "worse". Just because other people get better, doesn't mean he had to get worse.From our team alone I am hoping 3 guys crack that list. He has had a great season, but you just never know with these lists.

I don't see him getting bumped when he's probably at the beginning of his rise. I think the guys who fall off, are the ones that spent some time on it and don't develop much further.

The top 100 should be 4 strong by seasons end and possibly 5 or 6. Big difference from a couple years ago

wamco
07-17-2011, 02:14 PM
Still waiting...Please let us know who these 4 top 10 IFA's this year were that we signed. Then explain what was so funny about bos, tb and nyy having comparable farm systems, even showed you baseball americas ratings (after the adrian gonzalez trade btw). Also an ackowledgement of the top picks of the draft a few years ago going unsigned, which is odd that anyone wouldn't remember that fiasco anyhow.

North Yorker
07-17-2011, 02:31 PM
Still waiting...Please let us know who these 4 top 10 IFA's this year were that we signed. Then explain what was so funny about bos, tb and nyy having comparable farm systems, even showed you baseball americas ratings (after the adrian gonzalez trade btw). Also an ackowledgement of the top picks of the draft a few years ago going unsigned, which is odd that anyone wouldn't remember that fiasco anyhow.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632751

3 of the top 8 IFA's signed by the Jays and thats not even including Osuna who is the top pitcher left and there are rumours of us signing him. He's still 15 for another few weeks so he cant be signed yet. So if he signs it will be 4 top 8 IFAs we would have signed. If not 3 of the top 10 is great too.

And you can whine and complain all you want about us not signing Paxton but the fact is that every single team has unsigned draft picks. Including the Yanks and Gerrit Cole and the Red Sox with Romero and Teixeira. Do you understand this?

How about spending big $$$ on Hechavarria ($10M) and Cardona, and giving a 5th round pick a $1.5M bonus (Thon)?? Is that showing unwillingness to spend?

One of your arguments was that the reason why we end up with a lot of draft picks was because we dont sign our picks from the previous year, but in reality it's because AA is taking advantage of the compensation system.
Scutaro and Barajas /Olivo,Gregg,Downs,Buck/ and this year with Camp,Frasor,Rauch,Francisco,Dotel,Hill.

THAT is why we have a lot of picks and it's paying off as Keith Law has us as the 2nd best farm in the league.

broncosfan_101
07-17-2011, 02:32 PM
Still waiting...Please let us know who these 4 top 10 IFA's this year were that we signed. Then explain what was so funny about bos, tb and nyy having comparable farm systems, even showed you baseball americas ratings (after the adrian gonzalez trade btw). Also an ackowledgement of the top picks of the draft a few years ago going unsigned, which is odd that anyone wouldn't remember that fiasco anyhow.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'll take the bait...

1. Don't know who these top IFA's are either.

2. Baseball America had Boston at #17 after the Gonzalez trade. Can't see how that's comparable. Right now, Tampa's a notch ahead of us, NYY's a notch below, but both are comparable I'd say.

3. Hello?? Sure we didn't sign a bunch of top picks in 2009, but it's not like we LOST those picks. The year of development we lost was made up for by having AA making the picks over JP. Ricciardi drafted some good players, but right now, the scouting community seems to rave about the players Anthopoulos is bringing in. And that's not to mention that one of the guy's we didn't sign, we ended up getting in this draft anyways (about 40 rounds later than in 09).

Dol-Fan
07-17-2011, 02:40 PM
Still waiting...Please let us know who these 4 top 10 IFA's this year were that we signed. Then explain what was so funny about bos, tb and nyy having comparable farm systems, even showed you baseball americas ratings (after the adrian gonzalez trade btw). Also an ackowledgement of the top picks of the draft a few years ago going unsigned, which is odd that anyone wouldn't remember that fiasco anyhow.

Didn't we sign 14 of our first 15 picks last year as well as going over-slot on a whole bunch? :eyebrow: You're now saying "a few years ago" whereas earlier in the thread you were saying 2010. AA wasn't in charge of any drafts before that so I'm not sure what you're referring to?

http://mopupduty.com/index.php/jays-over-slot-12-times-in-2010-draft/

In terms of IFAs...we have signed 2 of the top 10 right now (according to BA's list of expected bonuses). We are the front runners for Roberto Osuna, which would make 3 of the top 10. We also signed 2 more in the top 40.

BOS and NYY do not have comparable farms to ours. Not sure what you're trying to argue with Boston, they're ranked 17th by BA as you have pointed out yourself. TB I won't argue, they have a nice system. I'm not an expert on the farm systems but my understanding is that NYY has more of a top heavy system. Montero is unlikely to stick at C and his value will decrease subsequently, along with the Yanks system. We've got a **** ton of high upside talent in the lower levels (guys like Nicolino, Molina, Cardona, Syndergaard, Sanchez, Knecht, Thon, etc) that are not near top 100 lists yet. We've got a deep, highly projectable farm with potential to get a heck of a lot better.

wamco
07-18-2011, 12:51 AM
Didn't we sign 14 of our first 15 picks last year as well as going over-slot on a whole bunch? :eyebrow: You're now saying "a few years ago" whereas earlier in the thread you were saying 2010. AA wasn't in charge of any drafts before that so I'm not sure what you're referring to?

-Again, AA's boss was in charge of the botched draft pick signing of JP's last draft, not JP, not AA. It was jps last draft, was that 2010 or 09, whatever it was.Some still only recognize it as one missed draft pick signing for some reason though.

http://mopupduty.com/index.php/jays-over-slot-12-times-in-2010-draft/

In terms of IFAs...we have signed 2 of the top 10 right now (according to BA's list of expected bonuses). We are the front runners for Roberto Osuna, which would make 3 of the top 10. We also signed 2 more in the top 40.

-so not 4 of the top 10, gotcha.
BOS and NYY do not have comparable farms to ours. Not sure what you're trying to argue with Boston, they're ranked 17th by BA as you have pointed out yourself. TB I won't argue, they have a nice system. I'm not an expert on the farm systems but my understanding is that NYY has more of a top heavy system. Montero is unlikely to stick at C and his value will decrease subsequently, along with the Yanks system. We've got a **** ton of high upside talent in the lower levels (guys like Nicolino, Molina, Cardona, Syndergaard, Sanchez, Knecht, Thon, etc) that are not near top 100 lists yet. We've got a deep, highly projectable farm with potential to get a heck of a lot better.

-I posted the baseball america rankings of the systems that everyone gets off on showing tb and ny right there with us and boston at 17 AFTER THE GONZO TRADE WHERE THEY GAVE UP 3 OF THEIR TOP 10 PROSPECTS IN THE TRADE HENCE FALLING TO 17. Pretty sure boston has a solid history of player development recently.
1.Kansas City Royals
2. Tampa Bay Rays
3. Atlanta Braves
4. Toronto Blue Jays
5. New York Yankees
6. Cincinnati Reds
7. Cleveland Indians
8. San Diego Padres
9. Colorado Rockies
10. Philadelphia Phillies
11. Los Angeles Dodgers
12. Minnesota Twins
13. Washington Nationals
14. Texas Rangers
15. Los Angeles Angels
16. Chicago Cubs
17. Boston Red Sox

Dol-Fan
07-18-2011, 09:23 AM
Again, AA's boss was in charge of the botched draft pick signing of JP's last draft, not JP, not AA. It was jps last draft, was that 2010 or 09, whatever it was.Some still only recognize it as one missed draft pick signing for some reason though.

It was 09. If you can't remember how great our draft was in 2010, then I can't take your opinion all that seriously.


so not 4 of the top 10, gotcha.

If you look at the rankings by expected signing bonuses, no. 2 of 10 so far and 3 of 10 when Osuna turns 16 and we (presumably) sign him.

If you look at the rankings by RECEIVED signing bonuses, yes. 3 of 10 so far and 4 of 10 when Osuna turns 16 and we (presumably) sign him.


-I posted the baseball america rankings of the systems that everyone gets off on showing tb and ny right there with us and boston at 17 AFTER THE GONZO TRADE WHERE THEY GAVE UP 3 OF THEIR TOP 10 PROSPECTS IN THE TRADE HENCE FALLING TO 17. Pretty sure boston has a solid history of player development recently.
1.Kansas City Royals
2. Tampa Bay Rays
3. Atlanta Braves
4. Toronto Blue Jays
5. New York Yankees
6. Cincinnati Reds
7. Cleveland Indians
8. San Diego Padres
9. Colorado Rockies
10. Philadelphia Phillies
11. Los Angeles Dodgers
12. Minnesota Twins
13. Washington Nationals
14. Texas Rangers
15. Los Angeles Angels
16. Chicago Cubs
17. Boston Red Sox



I get it...we need to spend in order to keep up with these teams because their farms are comparable. IMO, though, NYY and BOS really don't have comparable farms. If you want rationale for that, go back and read my last post and actually respond to it this time.

wamco
07-18-2011, 01:08 PM
It was 09. If you can't remember how great our draft was in 2010, then I can't take your opinion all that seriously.

I said all along it was a few years ago, didn't want to make a typo so didn't say 09 or 2010, knew it was Jp's last draft. Simmer.

I'm going to go by baseball america's rankings, not yours, no offense. boston going down to 17 after trading away 3 prospects would be similar to the jays going up to 4 after trading away roy halladay and marcum. I'm not willing to trade away Romero just to become number 1. I'm more into titles than minor league rankings, just like 99 percent of baseball fans.

and to reassure, i like AA, doing a great job (B plus in my opinion), and want to draft and develop and sign even if overslot the best players available, but let's not pretend we are going to close the gap on the big 3 via farm system alone. There is going to be a time to trade away 3 good prospects for a stud player and the minors system will take a hit and that is fine and dandy. That is one of the reasons you have prospects, as assets.

broncosfan_101
07-18-2011, 02:39 PM
It was 09. If you can't remember how great our draft was in 2010, then I can't take your opinion all that seriously.

I said all along it was a few years ago, didn't want to make a typo so didn't say 09 or 2010, knew it was Jp's last draft. Simmer.

I'm going to go by baseball america's rankings, not yours, no offense. boston going down to 17 after trading away 3 prospects would be similar to the jays going up to 4 after trading away roy halladay and marcum. I'm not willing to trade away Romero just to become number 1. I'm more into titles than minor league rankings, just like 99 percent of baseball fans.

and to reassure, i like AA, doing a great job (B plus in my opinion), and want to draft and develop and sign even if overslot the best players available, but let's not pretend we are going to close the gap on the big 3 via farm system alone. There is going to be a time to trade away 3 good prospects for a stud player and the minors system will take a hit and that is fine and dandy. That is one of the reasons you have prospects, as assets.

Yea, because Tampa didn't do exactly that.

Jay
07-18-2011, 03:05 PM
Yea, because Tampa didn't do exactly that.

I was going to say just that, but it's kinda overdone by now.

As much as I loveee AA, he ain't Andrew Friedman, either.

broncosfan_101
07-18-2011, 03:36 PM
I was going to say just that, but it's kinda overdone by now.

As much as I loveee AA, he ain't Andrew Friedman, either.

Yet. Comparing timeframes, AA's breakout would happen in 2012. The 2008 season was when Tampa's young pitching came together, and the same could happen for us next year. The biggest differences I see in the rosters are on the bench and in the pen. We don't have a bench corps of Hinske, Aybar and Zobrist, who were absolutely integral to their success that year. And their bullpen was lights out with Howell, Wheeler, Balfour and Miller.

But if AA can build up the depth this offseason, make a couple shrewd signings in both of those areas, and if we get a little luck (Tampa's Pythagorean W-L record was 5 wins less than their actual record), we could make a big push next season.

es0terik
07-18-2011, 04:53 PM
If you look at the rankings by expected signing bonuses, no. 2 of 10 so far and 3 of 10 when Osuna turns 16 and we (presumably) sign him.

If you look at the rankings by RECEIVED signing bonuses, yes. 3 of 10 so far and 4 of 10 when Osuna turns 16 and we (presumably) sign him.
You can add another name to that list.

The Jays signed another major international free agent Manuel Cordova. Was ranked as 33rd IFA on BA's list, and we don't even know how much the Jays spent to acquire him. Could have bumped him up the list for all we know.

es0terik
07-18-2011, 05:08 PM
but let's not pretend we are going to close the gap on the big 3 via farm system alone.

I'm not even going to mention Tampa Bay, since two others have already, and the fact that this thread is talking about farm systems specifically, not contentions or comparisons to the 'big 3'.

New Yorks farm system is very much overrated. They arent nearly as good as their ranking suggests.

ILDD
07-18-2011, 08:36 PM
Sorry to break this up but Baseball America just released their mid-season top 50.

AL East has the most (tied with NL West) propsects in there with 11
Blue Jays have the second most entires with 3 (Texas has 4)
Brett Lawrie at 10
Travis d'Arnaud at 29
Anthony Gose at 45

Link (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/765425-breaking-down-baseball-americas-mid-season-top-50-prospects#/articles/765425-breaking-down-baseball-americas-mid-season-top-50-prospects)

North Yorker
07-18-2011, 08:48 PM
Sorry to break this up but Baseball America just released their mid-season top 50.

AL East has the most (tied with NL West) propsects in there with 11
Blue Jays have the second most entires with 3 (Texas has 4)
Brett Lawrie at 10
Travis d'Arnaud at 29
Anthony Gose at 45

Link (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/765425-breaking-down-baseball-americas-mid-season-top-50-prospects#/articles/765425-breaking-down-baseball-americas-mid-season-top-50-prospects)

Thank you for confirming the information in the OP is correct:)

ILDD
07-18-2011, 08:59 PM
Thank you for confirming the information in the OP is correct:)

My bad, I meant to say that Baseball Prospectus had just come out with their top 50.

12. Brett Lawrie
21. Travis D'Arnaud

Kevin Goldstein (author of BP top 50 list) was asked about Hutchison and Gose and said "I'm not a big Gose fan, but Hutchinson earned consideration."

wamco
07-18-2011, 09:35 PM
Yea, because Tampa didn't do exactly that.

then we are doing it wrong by being a 5oo ball club and should be losing 100 g a year as per the TB model to get higher draft picks.

North Yorker
07-18-2011, 09:40 PM
then we are doing it wrong by being a 5oo ball club and should be losing 100 g a year as per the TB model to get higher draft picks.

:rolleyes:

Yes we are doing it wrong when Keith Law has us as the 2nd best farm in the entire league...

wanna try again?

broncosfan_101
07-18-2011, 09:47 PM
then we are doing it wrong by being a 5oo ball club and should be losing 100 g a year as per the TB model to get higher draft picks.

Lucky us, we built the 2nd-best farm system in baseball and didn't lose 90 games in a season once to do it.

B-Ray
07-18-2011, 10:39 PM
^^ Trading Roy Halladay sure helped

es0terik
07-19-2011, 12:14 AM
^^ Trading Roy Halladay sure helped

Halladay wasn't going to sign. We had to trade him and got the most for him.


wanna try again?

es0terik
07-19-2011, 12:15 AM
then we are doing it wrong by being a 5oo ball club and should be losing 100 g a year as per the TB model to get higher draft picks.
This is when you know somebody has lost in a debate.


wanna try again?

-- Good stuff. I can use this a lot on these forums.

wamco
07-19-2011, 07:47 AM
Halladay wasn't going to sign. We had to trade him and got the most for him.

irrelevant to his point that the major ranking boost was due to trading roy halladay and marcum and rolen.

North Yorker
07-19-2011, 08:15 AM
irrelevant to his point that the major ranking boost was due to trading roy halladay and marcum and rolen.

Well your point is irrelevant too seeing as TB hasnt had a bad season since 2007 and yet they still have the best farm in the league...

and btw their farm also got a major boost from the Garza trade.

Are you still sure TBay's model for success is losing 100 games a year? Or is it making smart trades (like AA), or stockpiling draft picks (like AA) that made it successful?

It looks to me that AA is following the TB model except we actually have the $$$ to re-sign our good players and be active in the IFA market.

And for the record, no, I dont expect you to respond to this post either.

es0terik
07-19-2011, 08:22 AM
irrelevant to his point that the major ranking boost was due to trading roy halladay and marcum and rolen.
You're also completely irrelevant to the actual point because it doesn't matter how we got our prospects, the point is we have them.

Wanna try again?

wamco
07-19-2011, 03:50 PM
the organization goal is to be like the sox, not the rays btw

wamco
07-19-2011, 03:51 PM
the organization goal is to be like the sox, not the rays btw

with of course garza being obtained by stinking and getting delmon young.

T.O. Fan
07-19-2011, 06:13 PM
Agreed the organizational goal is definitely the Red Sox.

Moving along........

BA:
10. Lawrie
29. D'Arnaud
45. Gose

Klaw:
9. Lawrie
20. D'Arnaud
39. Alvarez
48. Hutchison

BP:
12. Lawrie
21. D'Arnaud

Sickels:

?

Looks like so far the Jays top 5 look something like this:

1. Lawrie
2. D'Arnaud
3. Hutchison
4. Alvarez
5. Gose/Marisnick

Just basing that on Hutchison and Marisnick receiving honorable mention from BA and BP as well as the not so ringing endorsement of Gose from Klaw and BP.

FlakeyFool
07-19-2011, 06:19 PM
I'm not high on Gose

wamco
07-19-2011, 06:42 PM
D' has come a long way

broncosfan_101
07-19-2011, 06:45 PM
D' has come a long way

I was not a believer this offseason...consider me learned.

wamco
07-21-2011, 06:46 PM
Catching prospects in general are yawnstipating, with a seemingly high bust rate and/or overrated due to their defensive abilities.

wamco
07-21-2011, 06:47 PM
I saw in an article the other day that Gose had a 700 Plus slug pct this year, is that accurate or is that his OPS?

T.O. Fan
07-21-2011, 07:45 PM
I saw in an article the other day that Gose had a 700 Plus slug pct this year, is that accurate or is that his OPS?

If he had a SLG of .700 plus he'd be the best prospect in baseball.

He has a .735 OPS.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=gose--001ant

wamco
07-21-2011, 10:18 PM
Start in AA next year?

T.O. Fan
07-21-2011, 10:26 PM
Start in AA next year?

If I was running things then yes, definitely.

es0terik
07-22-2011, 01:34 AM
Btw what the hell are we doing with Darin Mastroianni...? He's been in our farm system for the past five years and he's wasting away his career. The guys got ridiculous speed on the base paths and as a batter has posted a .279 AVG. We should either trade him or promote him, at least give a guy a shot at the big leagues. He's been here since he was 21 and he's turning 26 in a month.

JaysFan87
07-22-2011, 10:10 AM
Btw what the hell are we doing with Darin Mastroianni...? He's been in our farm system for the past five years and he's wasting away his career. The guys got ridiculous speed on the base paths and as a batter has posted a .279 AVG. We should either trade him or promote him, at least give a guy a shot at the big leagues. He's been here since he was 21 and he's turning 26 in a month.

He is a fourth outfielder or platoon player that hits righties well. But most likely a career minor leaguer as he just isnt that good.

madmike77
07-22-2011, 12:15 PM
I'm not high on Gose

I didn't used to be but his numbers this year are much better. And he's young for his league. His stolen bases to caught stealing are way up this year. His hitting certainly still needs some work but it looks like it's improving.

ILDD
07-22-2011, 02:28 PM
Gose's stats are showing an improvment this year from last.

Stolen base success rate up from 58.4% to 77.6%
Walk rate up from 7.8% to 10.5%
Strike out relatively steady from 23.0% to 23.9%

Strangely though his OBP is only risen slightly from 0.332 to 0.344

Dol-Fan
07-22-2011, 02:33 PM
Gose's stats are showing an improvment this year from last.

Stolen base success rate up from 58.4% to 77.6%
Walk rate up from 7.8% to 10.5%
Strike out relatively steady from 23.0% to 23.9%

Strangely though his OBP is only risen slightly from 0.332 to 0.344

12 point drop in BA due to 20 point drop in BABIP.

es0terik
07-22-2011, 06:22 PM
He is a fourth outfielder or platoon player that hits righties well. But most likely a career minor leaguer as he just isnt that good.

Which is why I ask the question: why the hell do we still have him. If he's a career minor leaguer then trade him away to someone who needs speed. The Jays took Rajai Davis, someone will take Darin.

ILDD
07-22-2011, 08:00 PM
12 point drop in BA due to 20 point drop in BABIP.

Oh yeah, missed that. Thank god for fangraphs huh?

es0terik
07-22-2011, 09:17 PM
And I dunno about the people saying 'Im not high on Gose' I cant wait till the kid is up here.

wamco
07-23-2011, 11:04 PM
Lucky us, we built the 2nd-best farm system in baseball and didn't lose 90 games in a season once to do it.

built...traded roy halladay, marcum and rolen for...same thing

wamco
07-23-2011, 11:05 PM
that K rate has to be improved upon

Spiderdan22
07-24-2011, 12:35 AM
built...traded roy halladay, marcum and rolen for...same thing

Umm...let's see...high priced mediocrity with the above mentioned players playing 50/50 ball and the worst farm system in baseball and a clueless general manager named JP (who fired some of the scouts that helped build the Jays in the 80s and 90s) and a nitwit for team president...or a team with a bright future playing 50/50 ball while developing players with the second best farm system in baseball with tons of prospects to develop or trade for proven talent when most pieces are in place plus are able to sucure longevity with a smart general manager named AA (who has surrounded himself with smart baseball advisors) and a highly respected proven baseball man as president in Beston...ummmm...which would you choose? I hardly would say it is the same thing.

PabloEscobar
07-24-2011, 07:25 AM
Umm...let's see...high priced mediocrity with the above mentioned players playing 50/50 ball and the worst farm system in baseball and a clueless general manager named JP (who fired some of the scouts that helped build the Jays in the 80s and 90s) and a nitwit for team president...or a team with a bright future playing 50/50 ball while developing players with the second best farm system in baseball with tons of prospects to develop or trade for proven talent when most pieces are in place plus are able to sucure longevity with a smart general manager named AA (who has surrounded himself with smart baseball advisors) and a highly respected proven baseball man as president in Beston...ummmm...which would you choose? I hardly would say it is the same thing.

Nicely put :clap:

I think people tend to forget that we are in stage one right now. We are a rebuilding team and we have everything a team in that position wants/needs going forward. I am very anti Leafs/Raptors management and Alex has put us in a fantastic position moving forward with----->

1.)No bad contracts
2.)A stacked farm system
3.)A number of ML proven youngsters
4.)Money to spend

I fully trust AA to make the right moves in the next few years to give this team a legitimant chance to succeed.

wamco
07-24-2011, 08:38 AM
give me the 18th ranked farm system and roy halladay, shawn marcum and rolen over the 2nd ranked farm system without them every single day of the week.

wamco
07-24-2011, 08:39 AM
Since the end of last season, have we gained on the big 3 in AL east or lost ground on them, and by how much? (answer could be gained on some and lost on others or other way around)

North Yorker
07-24-2011, 08:59 AM
give me the 18th ranked farm system and roy halladay, shawn marcum and rolen over the 2nd ranked farm system without them every single day of the week.

You almost make it sound like Halladay actually wanted to re-sign here so... no.

I would rather d'Arnaud, Gose, and Drabek (all ranked in the top 50 at some time or another) over 2 comp picks.

fatkev78
07-24-2011, 10:50 AM
give me the 18th ranked farm system and roy halladay, shawn marcum and rolen over the 2nd ranked farm system without them every single day of the week.

The Jays had that...where did it get them?
Get over it, AA is going about this the right way/the only way the Jays can compete in the AL East.

Bob_at_york
07-24-2011, 11:08 AM
give me the 18th ranked farm system and roy halladay, shawn marcum and rolen over the 2nd ranked farm system without them every single day of the week.

rolen wanted out and Roy needed a change. I think those are horrible examples. Now you can make an argument about Marcum but I think that trade was needed.

Spiderdan22
07-24-2011, 02:48 PM
give me the 18th ranked farm system and roy halladay, shawn marcum and rolen over the 2nd ranked farm system without them every single day of the week.

Gee...let's just look at how wrong your statement is. And I think we can use the Jays as an example actually. During the mid/late 80s and early 90s the Jays had the best farm system in baseball. Exactly how many pennants and World Series titles did the Jays win during that time?? Yes, the Jays had the highest payroll in baseball but how did they get Alomar and Carter...did they not trade away homegrown talent? Didn't the Jays have the pieces in the farm system like Jeff Kent, who first replaced Gruber when he was hurt, and was then traded for David Cone? Wasn't it the Jays farm system that allowed them to have the prospects to trade for Ricky Henderson and to bring back Tony Fernandez in 93? I could go on.

The Jays under AA will develop as many players as possible, sign a big free agent or two, and then trade pieces from the second best farm system in baseball to aquire pieces to the puzzle to put them over the top. I will take that over having Halladay, Rolen, and one of the major's worst farm systems while playing 50/50 ball any day...especially since JP considered that a team that could actually make the post season.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

heusy_79
07-24-2011, 03:11 PM
Nicely put :clap:

I think people tend to forget that we are in stage one right now. We are a rebuilding team and we have everything a team in that position wants/needs going forward. I am very anti Leafs/Raptors management and Alex has put us in a fantastic position moving forward with----->

1.)No bad contracts
2.)A stacked farm system
3.)A number of ML proven youngsters
4.)Money to spend

I fully trust AA to make the right moves in the next few years to give this team a legitimant chance to succeed.

Along with the four things you mentioned, I'd also add the fact that the system now has so much depth, the Jays are able to package 3 good young arms and a position prospect for a superstar without tearing apart their system. The money and now the assets are there to make that push. Another big positive is that despite being a rebuilding club, this team is more than holding its own in the tough AL East, and is an easy win for no one.

GNick
07-24-2011, 05:42 PM
Nicely put :clap:

I think people tend to forget that we are in stage one right now. We are a rebuilding team and we have everything a team in that position wants/needs going forward. I am very anti Leafs/Raptors management and Alex has put us in a fantastic position moving forward with----->

1.)No bad contracts
2.)A stacked farm system
3.)A number of ML proven youngsters
4.)Money to spend

I fully trust AA to make the right moves in the next few years to give this team a legitimant chance to succeed.

That is quite easy to do for a team in 2nd year of rebuilding program. We'll get a good grip on AA ability if he can swing the big trade or sign the right free agents to put us in playoff contention

wamco
07-24-2011, 06:43 PM
It's all relative...

Since the end of last season, have we gained on the big 3 in AL east or lost ground on them, and by how much? (answer could be gained on some and lost on others or other way around)

JaysFan87
07-24-2011, 06:58 PM
It's all relative...

Since the end of last season, have we gained on the big 3 in AL east or lost ground on them, and by how much? (answer could be gained on some and lost on others or other way around)

What are you trying to say? I dont think anyway knows what your point is because your are talking in hypotheticals and circles. If your trying to say the jays are further from competing year-in-year-out for a championship, then your dead wrong because there has been significant ground work done by this current administration to have a system that can develop players year-in-year-out that can help the team trough performance or trade chips. You cant trade for big time players without good prospects and you cant drain the farm system to the point where you are not producing any home grown talent. The jays are going to be in a great position to trade for current producing players over the next 2 years as their prospects move through the system.

wamco
07-24-2011, 07:06 PM
What are you trying to say? I dont think anyway knows what your point is because your are talking in hypotheticals and circles.

-It was pretty straightforward actually.

If your trying to say the jays are further from competing year-in-year-out for a championship, then your dead wrong because there has been significant ground work done by this current administration to have a system that can develop players year-in-year-out that can help the team trough performance or trade chips. You cant trade for big time players without good prospects and you cant drain the farm system to the point where you are not producing any home grown talent. The jays are going to be in a great position to trade for current producing players over the next 2 years as their prospects move through the system.

-I said nothing of the sort, it was a question. In case you missed it:

"Since the end of last season, have we gained on the big 3 in AL east or lost ground on them, and by how much? (answer could be gained on some and lost on others or other way around)"

FlakeyFool
07-24-2011, 09:17 PM
And I dunno about the people saying 'Im not high on Gose' I cant wait till the kid is up here.

Me too

Twitchy
07-24-2011, 11:07 PM
The Gose thing is mostly because he hasn't shown he can hit for contact. He's hitting 260 in the minors, which isn't the same as hitting 260 in the majors. He has little power and so he strikes out too much, and he's not making good contact. It's a really bad sign when players don't hit for average in the minors.

Even guys with poor BA in the majors like Dunn hit for average in the minors. Contact is one of the most important skills, and the fact he hasn't shown it (even at a young age) is a red flag. The plate discipline is nice, but the lack of contact is not a good sign.

JaysFan87
07-24-2011, 11:47 PM
[QUOTE]-I said nothing of the sort, it was a question. In case you missed it:

Oddly worded question at the least.


"Since the end of last season, have we gained on the big 3 in AL east or lost ground on them, and by how much? (answer could be gained on some and lost on others or other way around)"

And the answered to your oddly worded question is yes. A very very very big yes.

wamco
07-25-2011, 07:29 AM
so have we gained ground or lost ground and your answer is a very very very big yes.

Makes alot of sense.


Halladay leaving was the jays fault for not competing, he showed in the past he wanted to resign here even for below market value.

JaysFan87
07-25-2011, 10:22 AM
so have we gained ground or lost ground and your answer is a very very very big yes.

Makes alot of sense.


Halladay leaving was the jays fault for not competing, he showed in the past he wanted to resign here even for below market value.

Great, he wanted to leave because the jays were not contending for the playoffs in the previous seasons. What would you have done at that point? Keep him for the sake of keeping him because well, I cant think of a reason as to why you would keep him if he is not going to resign. Or would you rather trade him in an effort to rebuild the farm system so that you can continue to produce quality players through your system? If you want to continue to whine and ***** about losing Halladay then go for it, I know that the Jays are in far better position to win championships now then at any time whne Halladay was here. I don't know about you but having a top ranking farm system is what you need to make those trades that you and everyone else here wants the jays to make. Considering that they now have the prospects to do those types of trades while not draining the farm system on one trade, the jays are in a great position to compete for the playoffs over the next 3 years.

Spiderdan22
07-25-2011, 11:05 AM
Halladay leaving was the jays fault for not competing, he showed in the past he wanted to resign here even for below market value.

I would agree with that...if the Jays had a winning formula before AA took over than they'd still have Halladay more than likely.

But since the Jays had one of the worst farm systems, there never was an opportunity to build a winner due to the incompetence of JP. Halladay had to be dealt and I don't think anyone can really complain about the prospects received from that deal. And...with AA rebuilding the farm system so quickly and smartly, there is a chance that maybe a Halladay type pitcher is already in the system just waiting to be developed.

The future is bright for the Jays because of the farm system now. It wasn't bright with Halladay, Rolen, and Wells. The last time I was this excited to be a Jays fan was 1994...but we all know how quickly that season faded away after the Joe Carter led the majors in batting for the month of April that year (yes I was thinking 3peat). I have been waiting ever so patiently since to be this excited again...what is that...16 years? And how was the farm system in those 16 years? Not so good I believe (well more mismanaged during the GA era...the Jays had the prospects).

broncosfan_101
07-25-2011, 08:02 PM
so have we gained ground or lost ground and your answer is a very very very big yes.

Makes alot of sense.


Halladay leaving was the jays fault for not competing, he showed in the past he wanted to resign here even for below market value.

You mean spending huge dollars on AJ Burnett, BJ Ryan and a Vernon Wells extension didn't get us into contention?? Why, why....I never!!

wamco
07-26-2011, 07:47 AM
have we gained ground or lost ground this year?

wamco
07-26-2011, 07:48 AM
You mean spending huge dollars on AJ Burnett, BJ Ryan and a Vernon Wells extension didn't get us into contention?? Why, why....I never!!

I liked zero of those 3 signings at the time, how bout you?

wamco
07-26-2011, 07:52 AM
But since the Jays had one of the worst farm systems, there never was an opportunity to build a winner due to the incompetence of JP. Halladay had to be dealt and I don't think anyone can really complain about the prospects received from that deal. And...with AA rebuilding the farm system so quickly and smartly, there is a chance that maybe a Halladay type pitcher is already in the system just waiting to be developed.

not likely another halladay floating around, hall of fame level sp we are talking about here. JP's drafts were graded "above average" for his tenure by baseball america and he traded few if any impact prospects away yet the cupboard was "empty" and the team needed "a complete rebuild". Hence the problem with prospects. We call up lawrie, the new jesus and tb calls up jennings, so we gain zero on that one.

PabloEscobar
07-26-2011, 02:07 PM
The Gose thing is mostly because he hasn't shown he can hit for contact. He's hitting 260 in the minors, which isn't the same as hitting 260 in the majors. He has little power and so he strikes out too much, and he's not making good contact. It's a really bad sign when players don't hit for average in the minors.

Even guys with poor BA in the majors like Dunn hit for average in the minors. Contact is one of the most important skills, and the fact he hasn't shown it (even at a young age) is a red flag. The plate discipline is nice, but the lack of contact is not a good sign.

Whats with this notion that Gose has little power?

He just hit his 10th home run of the season last night.

Go check out what kind of power numbers someone like Ellsbury or Crawford put up when they were 20 years old in the minors.

T.O. Fan
07-26-2011, 05:08 PM
Whats with this notion that Gose has little power?

He just hit his 10th home run of the season last night.

Go check out what kind of power numbers someone like Ellsbury or Crawford put up when they were 20 years old in the minors.

Crawford slugged 50 point higher than Gose at age 20 in AAA.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=crawfo001car

Ellsbury slugged almost 30 points higher than Gose at age 21 in low A.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=ellsbu001jac

broncosfan_101
07-26-2011, 06:13 PM
Crawford slugged 50 point higher than Gose at age 20 in AAA.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=crawfo001car

Ellsbury slugged almost 30 points higher than Gose at age 21 in low A.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=ellsbu001jac

Slugging takes contact into account. In terms of Isolated Power, Crawford was only 20 points higher, and Ellsbury was 25 points lower. We know Crawford and Ellsbury will make more contact, but in terms of XBH power, Gose is comparable.

JaysFan87
07-26-2011, 06:32 PM
I liked zero of those 3 signings at the time, how bout you?

Aren't you the same guy who says teh jays should just spend anything and everything becasue there is no cap? Or do you just use that argument when its convenient for you?

PabloEscobar
07-26-2011, 06:37 PM
Crawford slugged 50 point higher than Gose at age 20 in AAA.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=crawfo001car

Ellsbury slugged almost 30 points higher than Gose at age 21 in low A.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=ellsbu001jac

Slugging % doesnt always indicate which player has more "power".

Yunel Escobar slugging % this year .445
JP Arencibia slugging % this year .433

Everyone that has watched the Jays knows that JP has more power then Yunel but this statistic wouldnt show it. When someone says player X has little power I usually think they are speaking that they cant hit a home run (Juan Pierre).

Gose has more home runs this season then Ellsbury did thru the entire 06/07 seasons where he put up a total of 9 home runs. Saying Gose has "little power" is more of a myth then anything especially considering his age and the level hes currently playing at.

T.O. Fan
07-26-2011, 08:46 PM
Slugging % doesnt always indicate which player has more "power".

Yunel Escobar slugging % this year .445
JP Arencibia slugging % this year .433

Everyone that has watched the Jays knows that JP has more power then Yunel but this statistic wouldnt show it. When someone says player X has little power I usually think they are speaking that they cant hit a home run (Juan Pierre).

Gose has more home runs this season then Ellsbury did thru the entire 06/07 seasons where he put up a total of 9 home runs. Saying Gose has "little power" is more of a myth then anything especially considering his age and the level hes currently playing at.

I'm not going to argue with you about Gose, but to say that SLG doesn't indicate that a player has more power is just wrong. Players with higher SLG are more consistent at driving the ball to the gaps, walls and possibly over the fence.

If you were to say HR power then you may have a point.

PabloEscobar
07-26-2011, 09:03 PM
I'm not going to argue with you about Gose, but to say that SLG doesn't indicate that a player has more power is just wrong. Players with higher SLG are more consistent at driving the ball to the gaps, walls and possibly over the fence.

If you were to say HR power then you may have a point.

I said it doesnt always indicate who has more power. Sure in alot of instances the statistic is accurate but you can find plenty of comparisons where a player with more contact plus some home runs has a better slugging% then a player with less contact and more home runs. I guess it comes down to someones interpretation of power. When I read the earlier poster say Gose has little power I certainly took it in the sense that he was talking about his HR power.

wamco
07-26-2011, 10:18 PM
Aren't you the same guy who says teh jays should just spend anything and everything becasue there is no cap? Or do you just use that argument when its convenient for you?

obviously not if I didn't like the wells ext, nor the AJ, BJ and Thomas contracts at the time. Think I just said that. Are you one of the guys that pretends like you wouldn't be pumped if the jays signed a huge free agent even if they weren't "one player away"? Are you one of the guys that now hates JP yet defended him while he was here?

JaysFan87
07-26-2011, 11:20 PM
obviously not if I didn't like the wells ext, nor the AJ, BJ and Thomas contracts at the time. Think I just said that.


Huh? SO you complain that the blue jays dont sign big time FA and do not keep their own FA yet complain that they signed AJ, BJ in 2006 who coveted by all of MLB and compalin about extending Wells? But yet still want them to spend like mad because their is no cap?



Are you one of the guys that pretends like you wouldn't be pumped if the jays signed a huge free agent even if they weren't "one player away"?

Yes, of course I would be happy if that player came at good value and fit what they team needed. But not spend because they can. It has to make sense.


Are you one of the guys that now hates JP yet defended him while he was here?

Yes and I still would. He assembled very good teams between 06-09 that had they been in a different division or had a balanced schedule (something that is liekly going to happen in the next CBA) might have made the playoffs. His way of assembling teams is obviously very different than AA. I think his downfall was worrying too much about the present and not enough about the future. Fans and media alike would be much more accepting and patient if they see that the team is building a system that is self sustainable and that can be used to in trades. In AA's case he has built a team that right now is likely going to finish in and around .500 this year but at least fans can look to the future and see the top prospects coming through the system over the next 2-3 years that will make this team a championship contender.



And again to answer your question that you've asked numerous with everyone saying the same thing. Yes they are close simple because they are going to finish with a similar record to what they finsihed with the last 2 years with Doc and Marcum here but the difference is now they are doing it with a lot of younger talent here at the MLB level with even young talent at lower levels making their way through the system.

wamco
07-26-2011, 11:30 PM
Huh? SO you complain that the blue jays dont sign big time FA and do not keep their own FA yet complain that they signed AJ, BJ in 2006 who coveted by all of MLB and compalin about extending Wells? But yet still want them to spend like mad because their is no cap?

It's called having a brain. Giving BJ THE BIGGEST CONTRACT IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL TO A RELIEF PITCHER screamed "risky as F" to me, along with paying for the potential of AJ (and the opt out clause), but fair value was obtained for the price for AJ. Keith law just made a comment about a study they did his last year in TO showing that they shouldn't give a 4 year deal to BJ Ryan and said, so we didn't, we gave him five years.

Wells should have been traded, not given an extension. My quote at the time? "don't give jordan money to pippen". So yes, spend like mad on reyes and fielder

JaysFan87
07-26-2011, 11:42 PM
Huh? SO you complain that the blue jays dont sign big time FA and do not keep their own FA yet complain that they signed AJ, BJ in 2006 who coveted by all of MLB and compalin about extending Wells? But yet still want them to spend like mad because their is no cap?

It's called having a brain. Giving BJ THE BIGGEST CONTRACT IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL TO A RELIEF PITCHER screamed "risky as F" to me, along with paying for the potential of AJ (and the opt out clause), but fair value was obtained for the price for AJ. Wells should have been traded, not given an extension. My quote at the time? "don't give jordan money to pippen". So yes, spend like mad on reyes and fielder

I would not want to touch Firlder with a 10 foot pole as from year 5-8 of the contract he will be a shell of his self with no defensive position. As for Reyas he has a career .340 OBP. He has been incredible average the last 4 years. If all he is worth is steals then why pay him 3 times what you are paying Escobar. Even if your looking to move one of them to 2B I dont really see the hug upside in Reyas. Especially on a 8 year contract that will look very very bad on the back side when he loses his speed. (See carl crawford). I would rather go the trade route and try and acquire a 2B.

wamco
07-27-2011, 07:56 AM
give up assets and money, rather than money? No thanks. Brilliantly yawnstipating descriptions of fielder and reyes.

JaysFan87
07-27-2011, 09:26 AM
give up assets and money, rather than money?

No thanks. Brilliantly yawnstipating descriptions of fielder and reyes.

Yes cause it make far more sense that way. Again just because they are FA doesnt mean they are worth 18M+ a year. More so reyes than Fielder in this case. Going into this season, not one soul in hte baseball community thought that Reyes would get a huge long term contract as he was coming off another injury plagued season while posting a measly .286/.335/.434 with decreasing speed. So the obvious question here is, what exactly are you paying 18M+ a season and 100M+ over the course of the contract for? Again no one though he would get massive contract at the beginning of the season and now you are willing to spend 18M+ on a guy who at best is a replica of Escobar but right now is a lesser hitter than him with more speed? I would consider that poor asset management more so than going into the trade market.

As for Fielder when was the last time you saw a 5'11 250 pound athlete age nicely in their 30's? I would guess nobody, and all you have to do is just look at his father and see what fielder will be in 5 years and possible even less. And that is with his father being lighter than Prince. And while Prince does have better plate discipline than his father Cecil to hit 50HR but his career took a slow but very steady nose dive after that. Once he hit 29-30 years old he was a shell of himself. Largely due that he like Prince didnt take care of himself. Im sorry but i dont see how an 8 year deal for Prince is going to turn out to be anything but a huge waste of money come year 4-5 of the deal when Prince is 31 and the injuries begin.

North Yorker
07-27-2011, 09:52 AM
^Exactly Jaysfan87, I would rather go after a guy like Kendrys Morales in a trade rather than dish out $200M on a DH with that body type. Wamco can complain about what FAs we should and shouldn't have gone after, but when you look back at the FA busts lately like Lackey, Dunn, Crawford, Werth, etc and it's pretty easy to see why people would shy away from giving $25M/yr to a guy that contributes NOTHING defensively or $18M/yr to a guy who's best asset is speed and will diminish in a couple years.

There's a reason why AA has said countless times why he prefers the trade market rather than the FA market.

wamco
07-28-2011, 01:02 AM
Yes cause it make far more sense that way. Again just because they are FA doesnt mean they are worth 18M+ a year. More so reyes than Fielder in this case.

The point was for the jays to see free agents they need and go get them. Take out fielder and reyes and add whatever 2 names you want.

JaysFan87
07-28-2011, 09:41 AM
Yes cause it make far more sense that way. Again just because they are FA doesnt mean they are worth 18M+ a year. More so reyes than Fielder in this case.

The point was for the jays to see free agents they need and go get them. Take out fielder and reyes and add whatever 2 names you want.

Cool but those other two dont exist this offseason. You can't just make up FA and say "go and get them" when they are not there. Plus as you saw yesterday, there is tons of value in the trade market that the jays can exploit using the their #2nd rated farm system that hardly took a hit, if at all yesterday.

North Yorker
07-28-2011, 09:49 AM
Yes cause it make far more sense that way. Again just because they are FA doesnt mean they are worth 18M+ a year. More so reyes than Fielder in this case.

The point was for the jays to see free agents they need and go get them. Take out fielder and reyes and add whatever 2 names you want.

In this case I agree with you. I like Phillips a lot as our future 2B and AA should throw out a good offer for him. I would also think AA would go after RP much like this past offseason, but instead of throwing big $$$ at a CL(ala BJ Ryan) I think he trades for a good set-up man to fill that void (Romo?Pestano?Devine?)

JaysFan87
07-28-2011, 01:01 PM
In this case I agree with you. I like Phillips a lot as our future 2B and AA should throw out a good offer for him. I would also think AA would go after RP much like this past offseason, but instead of throwing big $$$ at a CL(ala BJ Ryan) I think he trades for a good set-up man to fill that void (Romo?Pestano?Devine?)

The reds have a team option on him that they will most likely pick up. I would say look to trade for him in the offseason but I dont think the Reds are loking for prospects as much as players taht can help them now.

wamco
07-28-2011, 05:11 PM
Fielder and Reyes would vastly improve the team, there is no way to dispute it. Will they be overpaid? probably. Is it my money? No. Will I spend my money on the team if they are challenging for the playoffs? Yes. Will my sons root for them if they dont? No, they will like the yankees/sox like everyone else and not spend any money on the jays.

broncosfan_101
07-31-2011, 08:31 PM
Fielder and Reyes would vastly improve the team, there is no way to dispute it. Will they be overpaid? probably. Is it my money? No. Will I spend my money on the team if they are challenging for the playoffs? Yes. Will my sons root for them if they dont? No, they will like the yankees/sox like everyone else and not spend any money on the jays.

Fielder and Reyes will both get 6+ year contracts. Both of them will probably be fairly paid for the first half of those deals. It's the 2nd half of those contracts that will turn ugly. Why not give up a couple decent assets and pay the more consistent Brandon Phillips a lot less money on a shorter term deal? I'm a Reyes fan, but I'd much rather trade away a couple prospects and give Phillips a 5 year, $65M contract than JR an 8 year, $150M deal. It's got a much better chance of working out long term for us than the Reyes option.

If Reyes would agree to a 6 year, $100M contract with us to play 2B, done. But he'll cash in far beyond that, in which case, he'll be wildly overpaid after the 2015 season (at the latest). I would not go beyond 6 years for either him or Fielder.

wamco
07-31-2011, 08:38 PM
when phillips is a free agent, it would be an option, but that is probably after next season.

broncosfan_101
07-31-2011, 09:08 PM
when phillips is a free agent, it would be an option, but that is probably after next season.

An $11M option is big for a mid-market team like Cincy. I believe they've got the payroll room for him, but they might think differently. And also, you may have missed the part where I said we could TRADE for him. May as well use the value AA has stockpiled in the farm to help the big league team when it makes sense to do so.