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Squad13
07-07-2011, 08:14 AM
According to TalkBasket.net, Deron Williams has agreed in principle to play for the Turkish club Besiktas.
The report states that Williams will be eligible to return to the NBA as soon as the lockout was over. We definitely didn't see this one coming, but it looks like Williams may be the first truly big name to head overseas. For what it's worth, this is the same club that Allen Iverson played with for a part of last season. If accurate, this is a major win for Besiktas.

http://rotoworld.com/player/nba/1130/deron-williams

Wow, and so it begins.

gilly
07-07-2011, 08:16 AM
Dear ESPN/Sky Sports/Eurosport,

Please start showing loads of European basketball if all these stars are going to join European clubs.

All my love,
Gilly

thenetslegend
07-07-2011, 08:22 AM
holy ****!

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-07-2011, 08:23 AM
Not surprised that players are doing this.

HeatBBall
07-07-2011, 08:26 AM
It doesn't shock me that players are thinking of doing this (majority being just role players), but it was kind of alarming to see a big name already on the move for now.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-07-2011, 08:28 AM
wow this is big news indeed

NYKalltheway
07-07-2011, 08:45 AM
200,000 euros PER MONTH ;) (less than Rudy haha)

NYKalltheway
07-07-2011, 08:48 AM
Also, Besiktas is not a EuroLeague team and they are the 5th strongest team in Turkey. It'll be interesting in Turkey and the EuroCup(if lockout is season-long) but it's just a WOW signing, nothing very significant for Europe's top guns ;)

EDIT: They also signed Zaza Pachulia and they target Vince Carter as well. Not sure if Iverson is still there, but I remember it being a 2 year deal anyway

daleja424
07-07-2011, 08:50 AM
Awesome. This needed to happen! Players taking a stand. If you insist on capping out earnings we eillgo play in a different market. Good luck NBA.

sixer04fan
07-07-2011, 08:53 AM
He better not get injured, or he's totally ****ed.

NYY 26 to 7
07-07-2011, 09:03 AM
Well chalk this up to a huge move for players. Basically saying we have leverage and options. Problem is that the money is nowhere close to NBA money - which is the whole issue to begin with.

3ballbomber
07-07-2011, 09:06 AM
this will be big "IF" & once he signs. it will be a big middle finger to the nba. cats just wanna ball man.

alencp3
07-07-2011, 09:07 AM
Prokhorov and his russian army are now headed to Turkey

sixer04fan
07-07-2011, 09:17 AM
Let's be honest, he's never playing in a Nets uni again. Sorry Brooklyn.

NYKalltheway
07-07-2011, 09:19 AM
Prokhorov and his russian army are now headed to Turkey

not really. Prokhorov would go back to CSKA if he had any interest but they got a huge investor anyway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMC_Norilsk_Nickel)

No serious team eally wants to sign NBA superstars. Not because of their financial needs, but because they'd need much time to settle in European basketball conditions, different setup, different rules, harder to get used to, 101% team work, two practice sessions per day 5 times a week... Plus no serious team is desperate enough to sign a NBA superstar for 4-12 months (unknown actually)

So only teams that will sign NBA superstars are teams like Besiktas who do it purely for marketing reasons and not to improve their team. Besiktas has been trying to make their fans care about their basketball department but it's gone in vain for the last few years. Perhaps this can sell out 4-5 games in a season... Also Efes, another Turkish team can afford 1-2 NBA superstars plus a few Italian, Russian or Spanish teams, teams that do not have an actual core though.

thenetslegend
07-07-2011, 09:23 AM
Let's be honest, he's never playing in a Nets uni again. Sorry Brooklyn.

just cause he his going to turkey during the lockout?

arkanian215
07-07-2011, 09:56 AM
Williams will sign a contract with Besiktas that will allow him to return to NBA as soon as the lockout ends. Nevertheless it is the greatest summer transfer by a European club, so far.

Williams who was traded to New Jersey Nets earlier this season after a fall out with the former team coach Jerry Sloan would be receiving $16.000.000 this year, but obviously doesn't want to stay inactive during the lockout.

The 27 year old will reportedly receive $200.000 per month.

Club's coach Ergin Ataman has confirmed the move and stated that the club is also very close to Zaza Pachulia, as well.http://www.talkbasket.net/5831-deron-williams-agrees-with-besiktas.html

I thought this was inevitable but I didn't think it would start this soon. 200k a month is a huge discount. Imagine teams in Europe having super teams. Who's next? I think some guys would have a harder time going to Europe b/c of insurance issues though.

LTBaByyy
07-07-2011, 10:23 AM
If he gets hurt or any other big names get hurt that sould be embarrasing!!!

But I am glad he is the first superstar to go overseas now its time for others until the lockout ends

dodie53
07-07-2011, 10:55 AM
they just wanna play and get paid

Punk
07-07-2011, 10:59 AM
Not surprising. He was talked about to be going to Europe if there was a lockout.

I'm surprised he's not staying in the US considering he has a newborn and wife. Let's face it, the Nets are gonna be screwed if he doesn't sign with them in 2012 if there is no season this year.

Ill21
07-07-2011, 11:03 AM
Wow if is was a Nets fan i would be furious over this

roshan3ai
07-07-2011, 11:06 AM
I wish we could watch these games. I wouldn't be surprised to see Gallo going back to play in Italy for a while

jimbobjarree
07-07-2011, 11:18 AM
haha why Besktas of all places! I swear I remember half the USA team hating having to play in Turkey for a month during the world championships. And its not like Besiktas are one of the more prestigious teams.

AK47 offered himself to Real Madrid for $6 million and they said no haha

cheetos185
07-07-2011, 11:40 AM
if this players are willing to play for less in europe than why not here just lower your demands

Ezio
07-07-2011, 11:41 AM
Don't break leg now

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 11:44 AM
I think all of the comments about this being leverage for the players are pretty hilarious. One of the league's best players (top 10 in my book) just went to play for a mediocre team at less than 20% of his NBA salary. The message is that DWill wants to play ball no matter what. I commend him for thinking outside the box to do so, but it is scarcely a demonstration of strength by the players to take way less money to have to leave the States to play for a mediocre team in a crappy league.

still1ballin
07-07-2011, 11:47 AM
its getting bad, real bad

Crackadalic
07-07-2011, 11:50 AM
If he gets hurt doesnt that void his contract of 16+ mil? Ouch

Hellcrooner
07-07-2011, 11:55 AM
tadah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! owners, is the end of the world as you knew it, once stars get a taste of europe, not having to play taxes, playing wherever you want, whenever you want, with whoever mates you want with no limit to what you can earn or te team can spend to be competitive, playing a more relaxed schedule, being able to win not 1 but 3 different championships every year.

players WONT accept any new cba after this unless the new cba is botu FREE MARKET WITH NO DRAFT NO NO SALARY CAP AND NO MORE SLAVERY ****.

stern , start to shiver and shake mofo!!!!!!!!

tbomlad
07-07-2011, 12:10 PM
This is great!! I would love to see more starts do it and really put the pressure on the owners. Their biggest investments and hottest commodities playing over overseas and risking injury, I love it.

cheetos185
07-07-2011, 12:11 PM
tadah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! owners, is the end of the world as you knew it, once stars get a taste of europe, not having to play taxes, playing wherever you want, whenever you want, with whoever mates you want with no limit to what you can earn or te team can spend to be competitive, playing a more relaxed schedule, being able to win not 1 but 3 different championships every year.

players WONT accept any new cba after this unless the new cba is botu FREE MARKET WITH NO DRAFT NO NO SALARY CAP AND NO MORE SLAVERY ****.

stern , start to shiver and shake mofo!!!!!!!!

does europe teams pay there teams best player 16-25 mil a year if so than good for this stars

daleja424
07-07-2011, 12:12 PM
I think all of the comments about this being leverage for the players are pretty hilarious. One of the league's best players (top 10 in my book) just went to play for a mediocre team at less than 20% of his NBA salary. The message is that DWill wants to play ball no matter what. I commend him for thinking outside the box to do so, but it is scarcely a demonstration of strength by the players to take way less money to have to leave the States to play for a mediocre team in a crappy league.

you don't see the leverage?... it is a statement that he would rather play for a fraction of his salary and be appreciated than play for a bunch of greedy business men that are trying to take advantage of the NBA cash cows.

This is personal now. The players made an offer that would get the NBA out of debt... the owners said that wasnt enough... the players are now saying, "screw you! Good luck having an NBA without us" ... and to prove that they are willing to move on... some will go to Europe.

This goes beyond economics at this point. Now it has gotten personal.

Hellcrooner
07-07-2011, 12:19 PM
does europe teams pay there teams best player 16-25 mil a year if so than good for this stars

1 european teams pay the compelte salary because the team pay the taxes.

for example, kobe earns 20 million Dollars but after taxes he gets 10 million dollars wich are 7 million euros.

2 For the moment in europe the more that can be paid is 6 million because since there are no class A start, you dont get that much from gate receipts, tv rights and or sponsors.

3 the minute a kobe or lebron or etc puts a foot on a team in europe, that team will receive a lot of sponsorshuip offer,s will be able to raise ticket prices and earn more from gates and will sign higher tv rights, effectively making them able to pay those 10 million euros contracts. ( lots of basket teams are soccer teams too and they pay even higer contracts to their soccer stars)

4 obviously if the majority of stars in nba do the same than deron has done is quite posible that espn or nbc decide to broadcast euroleague in america, wich means more money for euro clubs and american sponsors keeping on paying money to the paleyrs.


If i was stern /owners i would be highly worried

LakersIn5
07-07-2011, 12:20 PM
the richest person in the world should start a new basketball league and invite all the nba players and have a basketball system like in europe. so the nba can go **** themselves

daleja424
07-07-2011, 12:27 PM
1 european teams pay the compelte salary because the team pay the taxes.

for example, kobe earns 20 million Dollars but after taxes he gets 10 million dollars wich are 13 million euros.

2 For the moment in europe the more that can be paid is 6 million because since there are no class A start, you dont get that much from gate receipts, tv rights and or sponsors.

3 the minute a kobe or lebron or etc puts a foot on a team in europe, that team will receive a lot of sponsorshuip offer,s will be able to raise ticket prices and earn more from gates and will sign higher tv rights, effectively making them able to pay those 10 million euros contracts. ( lots of basket teams are soccer teams too and they pay even higer contracts to their soccer stars)

4 obviously if the majority of stars in nba do the same than deron has done is quite posible that espn or nbc decide to broadcast euroleague in america, wich means more money for euro clubs and american sponsors keeping on paying money to the paleyrs.


If i was stern /owners i would be highly worried

your math is very poor my friend... the euro is worth more than the dollar... so there is NO WAY that 10 million dollars is worth 13 million Euro.

Lets do it this way...

Lets look at Lebron James. He made 15 million dollars last year (aprox). About 40% of that was taxed away... so he actually saw 9 million of that. That would mean he would need to make about 6.2 million Euro a year to break even. Seems doable... especially given that revenue would rise tremendously with players like Lebron playing in the Euroleague.

Then consider that they play about half the number of games in a European season.

A lot NBA guys could EASILY break even abroad... YEAR 1!!!

Sly Guy
07-07-2011, 12:31 PM
I like this move by Deron. I like it for the game of basketball, not necessarily for the NBA.

1. He comes off as a player who cares about playing as much as about his contract.
2. He puts pressure on the owners by demonstrating that the NBA isn't the only league in town, albeit the one with the deepest pockets.
3. He sets a precedent for other players that they can still play, earn and better their bargaining position at the same time.

Stern has always been about the globalization of the game of basketball, and this is a step that is natural in that progress. Having some of the best players in the world can only help to increase the prestige of the league and help to grow the game internationally by allowing fans worldwide to get a closer look at those players. I'm sure Stern would have preferred NBA expansion, or some form of revenue sharing partnership with Euro-leagues to increase the profitability for his league, but losing players overseas will serve to increase exposure of the game. Besides, it might get the owners a little scared that basketball might become a sport like soccer, with several 'top' leagues in the world sharing all the talent.

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 12:32 PM
you don't see the leverage?... it is a statement that he would rather play for a fraction of his salary and be appreciated than play for a bunch of greedy business men that are trying to take advantage of the NBA cash cows.

This is personal now. The players made an offer that would get the NBA out of debt... the owners said that wasnt enough... the players are now saying, "screw you! Good luck having an NBA without us" ... and to prove that they are willing to move on... some will go to Europe.

This goes beyond economics at this point. Now it has gotten personal.

You're fabricating the purported leverage. DWill made no such statement that he would rather play for a fraction of his salary. In fact, he made an unambiguous statement that he would rather play in the NBA for his full salary. That is why he got the full opt-out clause to let him return to the NBA (his unambiguous preference) at any time.

The players are not saying "screw you." Some players are demonstrating that they view some basketball somewhere as being better than no basketball in the US. But until players start signing guaranteed deals in Europe (i.e. deals that require them to spend a season in Europe without an out clause to return to the NBA this season), there is no leverage here. To suggest otherwise is frankly absurd. DWill's deal is a tacit admission that he MUCH prefers to play stateside and he took a deal that is paying him a fraction of his contract.

I understand that some players might appreciate the European experience, but anyone who thinks this is a big strike for the players is fooling themselves. And while I won't both responding to Hellcrooner's post in full (because like most of what he posts, it is logically unsupported drivel), the reality is that until many players go overseas with guaranteed contracts, the owners have lost literally nothing while seeing first hand the significant paycuts the players will have to take to play in Europe. Yeah, I'm sure they're shaking.

jrm2054
07-07-2011, 12:34 PM
Is he the only one so far to commit to a European team

daleja424
07-07-2011, 12:35 PM
You're fabricating the purported leverage. DWill made no such statement that he would rather play for a fraction of his salary. In fact, he made an unambiguous statement that he would rather play in the NBA for his full salary. That is why he got the full opt-out clause to let him return to the NBA (his unambiguous preference) at any time.

The players are not saying "screw you." Some players are demonstrating that they view some basketball somewhere as being better than no basketball in the US. But until players start signing guaranteed deals in Europe (i.e. deals that require them to spend a season in Europe without an out clause to return to the NBA this season), there is no leverage here. To suggest otherwise is frankly absurd. DWill's deal is a tacit admission that he MUCH prefers to play stateside and he took a deal that is paying him a fraction of his contract.

I understand that some players might appreciate the European experience, but anyone who thinks this is a big strike for the players is fooling themselves. And while I won't both responding to Hellcrooner's post in full (because like most of what he posts, it is logically unsupported drivel), the reality is that until many players go overseas with guaranteed contracts, the owners have lost literally nothing while seeing first hand the significant paycuts the players will have to take to play in Europe. Yeah, I'm sure they're shaking.

So you think that Deron is going to play in Europe b/c he really needs a couple hundred k???

Lil Half Dead
07-07-2011, 12:36 PM
When the lockout's over, I'm pretty sure he's going to ditch the Nets.

godolphins
07-07-2011, 12:36 PM
I'm not suprise players are doing this

Hellcrooner
07-07-2011, 12:38 PM
your math is very poor my friend... the euro is worth more than the dollar... so there is NO WAY that 10 million dollars is worth 13 million Euro.

Lets do it this way...

Lets look at Lebron James. He made 15 million dollars last year (aprox). About 40% of that was taxed away... so he actually saw 9 million of that. That would mean he would need to make about 6.2 million Euro a year to break even. Seems doable... especially given that revenue would rise tremendously with players like Lebron playing in the Euroleague.

Then consider that they play about half the number of games in a European season.

A lot NBA guys could EASILY break even abroad... YEAR 1!!!
yeah i fixed it up, i put the converter in the wrong direction :D

FriedTofuz
07-07-2011, 12:47 PM
This is the affect of the lockout, players want to do what theyre best at, and thats play ball, in whatever league they can to keep in game shape.

Hustlenomics
07-07-2011, 12:50 PM
nice, now more star players need to follow suit

ABOMB_56
07-07-2011, 12:51 PM
This is the biggest difference between the NBA and NFL lockouts. The NFL players have nowhere else to turn which gives the owners leverage of the situation, however the NBA players can go to a plethora of leagues around the world and don't necessarily "need" the NBA to play basketball. Deron and a few more big stars will go overseas to play IMO

Sly Guy
07-07-2011, 12:55 PM
so I guess Sonny Weems was the first domino to fall, huh?

sjoerdje
07-07-2011, 12:59 PM
quit saying there are no taxes in europe! Expect to pay over 40% of your income!

Sadds The Gr8
07-07-2011, 01:00 PM
cool. i wonder if they'll air any games if all the star players go to europe.

Lil Half Dead
07-07-2011, 01:04 PM
Deron going this soon should definitely cause a huge ripple effect. If a top 15 player in the league has already decided he's not going to wait around, others will follow.

Heater4life
07-07-2011, 01:07 PM
You're fabricating the purported leverage. DWill made no such statement that he would rather play for a fraction of his salary. In fact, he made an unambiguous statement that he would rather play in the NBA for his full salary. That is why he got the full opt-out clause to let him return to the NBA (his unambiguous preference) at any time.

The players are not saying "screw you." Some players are demonstrating that they view some basketball somewhere as being better than no basketball in the US. But until players start signing guaranteed deals in Europe (i.e. deals that require them to spend a season in Europe without an out clause to return to the NBA this season), there is no leverage here. To suggest otherwise is frankly absurd. DWill's deal is a tacit admission that he MUCH prefers to play stateside and he took a deal that is paying him a fraction of his contract.

I understand that some players might appreciate the European experience, but anyone who thinks this is a big strike for the players is fooling themselves. And while I won't both responding to Hellcrooner's post in full (because like most of what he posts, it is logically unsupported drivel), the reality is that until many players go overseas with guaranteed contracts, the owners have lost literally nothing while seeing first hand the significant paycuts the players will have to take to play in Europe. Yeah, I'm sure they're shaking.

I dont think Daleja is fabricating the idea that the players are taking a stand. Although Deron may not be doing so intentionally, his actions will be opening doors for the players union and really putting a strain on the owners.

The contracts are not guranteed and the Deron is still showing the willingness to come back, but it also shows he is willing to try new buisness ventures and will stick out the lockout. Being a great player in the league i look for many more players to follow suit.

The owners believed they could force the players up against a financial wall, well that doesnt seem to be the case now. So regardless of his intent, D Will is taking a MAJOR stand against the owners. If we lose a season, the owners will lose alot more than any one player and the players now look like they can wait it out.

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 01:15 PM
So you think that Deron is going to play in Europe b/c he really needs a couple hundred k???

Can you point to the part of my post that said anything close to that?

I think that Deron is going to Europe because he loves basketball and would rather play than not play. I respect him greatly for the decision, but don't think it demonstrates strength or solidarity amongst the players. Just shows a love of the game by one player who is willing to play for less money simply to be able to play. Exactly what the owners are hoping to accomplish.

I will sit patiently and wait for anyone to provide an actual reason for the owners to be worried about players taking far less money to leave their young families (or to relocate those families), while playing in a lesser league against weaker competition, on a non-guaranteed deal that allows them to return to their preferred destination of the NBA at the drop of a hat. I have all day.

maddBat
07-07-2011, 01:21 PM
crazy stuff. now it really puts pressure on owners 2 lift the lockout. who wants 2 c their stars play overseas?

Hellcrooner
07-07-2011, 01:22 PM
quit saying there are no taxes in europe! Expect to pay over 40% of your income!

there are taxes in europe.

but the TEAM pays it.


in usa it the team offers you 10 million, they give you those ten million and then you got to pay your taxes.

in europe if the team offers you 10 million they are giving you the full 10 million and they are paying the taxes , so in reality they are oferring you 18 million.

dnewguy
07-07-2011, 01:26 PM
The big news will be Lebron James, I could care less if the rest sign with Togo.

Hellcrooner
07-07-2011, 01:28 PM
The big news will be Lebron James, I could care less if the rest sign with Togo.

not likely, but wade i could see him doint it.

players that have already hinted they will sign in europe if lockout is taking too long.

kobe, stou, both gasols, dirk, kirilenko, artest.

expect more to follow suit.

TheRunKiller
07-07-2011, 01:30 PM
They are probably better than the Nets.

Giantwarrior
07-07-2011, 01:31 PM
NBA is bigger the Deron Williams.

DamnGoat
07-07-2011, 01:31 PM
First Brian Scalabrine, now Deron Williams...which Superstar is next?

Giantwarrior
07-07-2011, 01:34 PM
Deron Williams isnt under contract so he can play where ever he wants.

Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Paul etc. cant sign with another Euro team unless they are willing to pay for their insurance claims in case they get hurt. No Euro Team will take that risk.

nimazahir
07-07-2011, 01:41 PM
If he would be willing to take 200k or euros there a month why wont all the players take paycuts in the NBA? The superstars like lebron, dwight,... deserve their money but 2nd-3rd option guys like joe johnson, boozer, and gay are making too much.
And then there are the players who are clearly overpaid and dont even deserve it:Gilbert, Lewis, and Curry.

Shmontaine
07-07-2011, 01:41 PM
I don't get how this is good for the players... sure, they have options, to make a fraction of what they make here, overseas... wow...

this just gives the owners more reason to hold out... players are willing to play for less, and they will... eventually...

IMO all the owners were thinking was, "see, players will play for less... much less"

you guys think after a year long lockout, and the owners offer 20-30%% more than their euroleague counterparts, the players would stay in europe? I do not...

more money to be made through endorsements here in the US...

MacFitz92
07-07-2011, 01:49 PM
The whole thing makes me sick. But, more power to the players to go play in different leagues.

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 01:54 PM
I don't get how this is good for the players... sure, they have options, to make a fraction of what they make here, overseas... wow...

this just gives the owners more reason to hold out... players are willing to play for less, and they will... eventually...

IMO all the owners were thinking was, "see, players will play for less... much less"

you guys think after a year long lockout, and the owners offer 20-30%% more than their euroleague counterparts, the players would stay in europe? I do not...

more money to be made through endorsements here in the US...

This is the point that I have been making and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have yet to see anyone present an actual reason this is good for the players.

JerseysFinest
07-07-2011, 01:55 PM
This is good news. This is a move from the players side of the negotiations, they're basically saying we can go overseas and make money and play while you guys (owners) will be sitting her twiddling your thumbs. This hopefully speeds up the arrival to an agreement. Good job D-Will.

airronijordan
07-07-2011, 01:56 PM
This is good news. This is a move from the players side of the negotiations, they're basically saying we can go overseas and make money and play while you guys (owners) will be sitting her twiddling your thumbs. This hopefully speeds up the arrival to an agreement. Good job D-Will.

I see your point of view, but I actually think the owners are laughing b/c thats a massive paycut going from around 2.5 mill/month in the nba to 200k/month in turkey

It shows the players are more desperate than the owners

JerseysFinest
07-07-2011, 01:57 PM
Deron Williams isnt under contract so he can play where ever he wants.

Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Paul etc. cant sign with another Euro team unless they are willing to pay for their insurance claims in case they get hurt. No Euro Team will take that risk.

Deron Williams IS under contract with the Nets, he is in theory risking his health playing overseas because he isn't insured.

JerseysFinest
07-07-2011, 01:58 PM
I see your point of view, but I actually think the owners are laughing b/c thats a massive paycut going from around 2.5 mill/month in the nba to 200k/month in turkey

It shows the players are more desperate than the owners

That is also true too. We'll have to see if FIBA clears him to play there first though.

Cubs Win
07-07-2011, 02:01 PM
I see your point of view, but I actually think the owners are laughing b/c thats a massive paycut going from around 2.5 mill/month in the nba to 200k/month in turkey

It shows the players are more desperate than the owners

It may show the players are more desperate than the owners, but they should be. It's the whole "only" millionaires vs. billionaires argument. At the same time, the players can choose to go overseas and play and get paid (maybe not as much, but paid). What will the owners do with no players?

Not saying this gives a huge advantage to the players, just playing devil's advocate.

Heater4life
07-07-2011, 02:06 PM
This is the point that I have been making and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have yet to see anyone present an actual reason this is good for the players.

Its good for the players because they actually have an option and a source of income to wait it out. Although they want to go back to the NBA, there no desperation on their end. They will lose millions compared to their NBA deals, but what you fail to realize is that the NBA owners face losing billions by waiting it out. This isnt the NFL where the players have their backs against a wall with no second option.

Also to note, the longer this plays out the more likely the NBA losses a low-tier star ,young prospects, or solid role players to a european contract.

JerseysFinest
07-07-2011, 02:10 PM
I don't get how this is good for the players... sure, they have options, to make a fraction of what they make here, overseas... wow...

this just gives the owners more reason to hold out... players are willing to play for less, and they will... eventually...

IMO all the owners were thinking was, "see, players will play for less... much less"

you guys think after a year long lockout, and the owners offer 20-30%% more than their euroleague counterparts, the players would stay in europe? I do not...

more money to be made through endorsements here in the US...
The players would be making the point that there is a market out there for them. Maybe D-Will is the first domino, but say other superstars say they'll play for teams in Europe, that is putting a lot of pressure on the owners. The owners know without these types of players in the league profit gains will plummet even further.

knicksfan42
07-07-2011, 02:10 PM
It may show the players are more desperate than the owners, but they should be. It's the whole "only" millionaires vs. billionaires argument. At the same time, the players can choose to go overseas and play and get paid (maybe not as much, but paid). What will the owners do with no players?


Nothing, if they're losing money than not having a season is a benefit for them they won't lose money from their NBA franchise.

Shmontaine
07-07-2011, 02:11 PM
It may show the players are more desperate than the owners, but they should be. It's the whole "only" millionaires vs. billionaires argument. At the same time, the players can choose to go overseas and play and get paid (maybe not as much, but paid). What will the owners do with no players?

Not saying this gives a huge advantage to the players, just playing devil's advocate.

not lose money??

if a guy slated to make 60 mil/5years settles for 2.5mil/year, what does that say to everyone...

the players don't 'need' as much as the owners 'need'... if a star like dwill crumbles, the lesser players have got to be losing their minds...

Dash
07-07-2011, 02:14 PM
And so it beginssssssssssss

knicksfan42
07-07-2011, 02:14 PM
The players would be making the point that there is a market out there for them. Maybe D-Will is the first domino, but say other superstars say they'll play for teams in Europe, that is putting a lot of pressure on the owners. The owners know without these types of players in the league profit gains will plummet even further.

The market for NBA players in Europe has been refuted. Secondly the profits won't plummet further, because there weren't profits to begin with. If there is no league the owners aren't paying anyone and therefor aren't losing anything from their NBA franchise.

Rivera
07-07-2011, 02:15 PM
man this is more proof that this lock out is not gonna get done anytime soon and a real possibility that we may miss a whole NBA season

if more players go especially the superstars like kobe dwight durant rose wade james paul so on and so forth it could be viewed as a mass exodus from the players leaving to other teams and leagues and it could force owners to make a deal sooner to get their stars back

but nba teams are loosing money and i think they are content with sitting out a year...i heard an owner say in the news (dont know which) that if there was a lockout for a whole year they would loose less money than if they did have a season


so at the end of it alll GOOD BYE NBA BASKETBALL UNTIL 2012-2013 season

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 02:19 PM
Its good for the players because they actually have an option and a source of income to wait it out. Although they want to go back to the NBA, there no desperation on their end. They will lose millions compared to their NBA deals, but what you fail to realize is that the NBA owners face losing billions by waiting it out. This isnt the NFL where the players have their backs against a wall with no second option.

Also to note, the longer this plays out the more likely the NBA losses a low-tier star ,young prospects, or solid role players to a european contract.

It is not desperation to move halfway across the world for a contract at less than 20% of your current salary????? Really????? That is your argument as to why this benefits the players. I can't imagine how hard my boss would laugh if I threatened to take an 80% pay cut to go elsewhere and relocate my family.

What you fail to realize, despite the facts being right in front of you, is that the owners in the NBA as a whole are losing money rather than making money. This isn't the NFL where every team is profitable because of the league's monstrous TV contracts and thus, the owners are losing money through a lockout. Sure the long-term effects on the league may hurt, but in the meantime, many of the owners will actually be saving money through a lockout. Moreover, even those that are profitable are more than capable of sustaining the lost profit from one season. It is absurd to suggest that a billionaire, whose money was made in other industries and ventures, will be hurting from losing one year of potential profit more than a player whose only income is tied to basketball (some certainly have marketing dollars as well), and who does not have tons of money from prior ventures.

These arguments are ridiculous. The owners would laugh at the players for even suggesting them. And the owners are laughing and rubbing their hands together today at the "threat" of players going overseas for quarters on the dollar.

Heater4life
07-07-2011, 02:20 PM
Nothing, if they're losing money than not having a season is a benefit for them they won't lose money from their NBA franchise.

The owners dont lose money????

Really??? What about the multi-million dollar investments they spent on purchasing a franchise? Franchises like Orlando that built a new stadium, what thats free now?

Arena leases? Taxes? Lost revenue from games? The money they have to pay back for advertising? Apparel/Memrobilia sales?

There losing a ton of money by not having a season, dont kid yourself.

Hellcrooner
07-07-2011, 02:21 PM
if the players come here massively, and they stay in the mid term the salarays offered will be the SAME than they were offered in usa, you got to draw the interest of investors first, and that you dont do overnight, may take 1 year or two.

for the moment

the find that.

1 team pay theyr taxes, they get full salary.
2 theres no draft, they can go to any team they want just by the team paying some money for it.
3 they dont need to end a contract to sign a new better one or bolt to other team, only thing needed is an a greement between teams on money
4 when you bolt to other team vias trade the other tread does not have to lose potential by trading a palyer back
5 you can join as many stars as you want in 1 team
6 team can NEVER reteins you with rfa ****.
7 you have not 1 but three competitions to win a year, 1 cup 1 national league 1 internaional league
8 you play half the games than in nba, wich makes a big injury less likely and extends your career beign able to play more years and earn more.

9 teams provides you of the big home and the car you dont have to buy it yourself.

wahts not to like?

it INDEED IS a bIG RISK for the owners that this plyaers that TEST being an overpaid EMPLOYEE decide its better than being an overpaid SLAVE:

assisi805
07-07-2011, 02:38 PM
Take that NBA

Heater4life
07-07-2011, 02:48 PM
It is not desperation to move halfway across the world for a contract at less than 20% of your current salary????? Really????? That is your argument as to why this benefits the players. I can't imagine how hard my boss would laugh if I threatened to take an 80% pay cut to go elsewhere and relocate my family.


The difference being that you dont result in 100% of the income coming into your bosses company. Nor is that company existent without you their. What the players are making overseas truly does not matter, thats what you guys are focusing on and its negligible. Why? Because it allows players to still have a viable source of income to play this out.

I understand this is not a crushing blow to the owners, but the mere fact that the players have an option and can seek work else where puts strain on the owners.

Trust me, there owners rather lose 7 million a year than a 300 million dollar investment as a whole. No matter what their other ventures make.

Heater4life
07-07-2011, 02:57 PM
And this is only now. Let a season get cancelled and see how many players flock overseas.

Remember, guys like D Will arent at the arguing table for a new CBA. They just know theres no league and there not getting paid. So they go collect a check from someone else.

The NBA Players Union has a lot more room to holdout than does the NFL's.

Silent
07-07-2011, 02:58 PM
200,000 euros PER MONTH ;) (less than Rudy haha)

true but he gets to leave anytime after the lock out not a bad deal if u ask me

Baller1
07-07-2011, 03:02 PM
**** David Stern.

Bruno
07-07-2011, 03:02 PM
Good for D-will.

Evolution23
07-07-2011, 03:08 PM
Good for Deron. Next he will leave the Nets for the Knicks. ;)

netsgiantsyanks
07-07-2011, 03:22 PM
Good for Deron. Next he will leave the Nets for the Knicks. ;)

lawl

The Final Boss
07-07-2011, 03:37 PM
The owners won the second the locked the players out.

cheetos185
07-07-2011, 03:38 PM
crazy stuff. now it really puts pressure on owners 2 lift the lockout. who wants 2 c their stars play overseas?

owners dont care about the stars they care about $$$

albertc86
07-07-2011, 03:39 PM
Awesome. This needed to happen! Players taking a stand. If you insist on capping out earnings we eillgo play in a different market. Good luck NBA.

What about us? It's market that we don't have access too.

northsider
07-07-2011, 03:49 PM
Damn that is crazy man.

northsider
07-07-2011, 03:52 PM
owners dont care about the stars they care about $$$

What do you think generates that money. I know I sure as **** don't want to watch or go to a game where the best player is Keith Bogans.

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 03:54 PM
if the players come here massively, and they stay in the mid term the salarays offered will be the SAME than they were offered in usa, you got to draw the interest of investors first, and that you dont do overnight, may take 1 year or two.

for the moment

the find that.

1 team pay theyr taxes, they get full salary.
2 theres no draft, they can go to any team they want just by the team paying some money for it.
3 they dont need to end a contract to sign a new better one or bolt to other team, only thing needed is an a greement between teams on money
4 when you bolt to other team vias trade the other tread does not have to lose potential by trading a palyer back
5 you can join as many stars as you want in 1 team
6 team can NEVER reteins you with rfa ****.
7 you have not 1 but three competitions to win a year, 1 cup 1 national league 1 internaional league
8 you play half the games than in nba, wich makes a big injury less likely and extends your career beign able to play more years and earn more.

9 teams provides you of the big home and the car you dont have to buy it yourself.

wahts not to like?

it INDEED IS a bIG RISK for the owners that this plyaers that TEST being an overpaid EMPLOYEE decide its better than being an overpaid SLAVE:

Your post has so many flaws that it barely warrants a response but I will try anyways. First, we all know that you are located in Spain and are a fan of European basketball players moreso than you are a fan of the NBA. You call yourself a Laker fan, but are much more a Gasol fan. The point is that your perspective on this situation can scarcely be considered as unbiased. Second, the premise in your opening paragraph that the salaries are the same is flawed and incorrect. Repeat it as many times as you want, it still won't be true.

I will address your other points in turn.

1. They get their full salary, which is a mere fraction of what they get paid in the NBA. The taxes are irrelevant if the salaries are still much less (as a take home) than it is in the NBA. The reality is Deron Williams makes about $10M a year after taxes in the US and far far less than that under his new contract (even with his team paying the taxes -- and who knows for sure whether the team is even paying the taxes). Thus, this argument is illusory. 67% of a dollar is still more than 100% of a quarter. It isn't that complicated.

2. This is an interesting point. Except that the team has to want them and many Euro teams (read: the top teams) will resist taking on NBA players with no guarantee of the length of their stay as it isn't worth disrupting team chemistry to have a player leave in two months.

3. They don't have the right to just bolt. You are overstating reality to make a point. Rather, the player can request a transfer or the team can agree to one. This is no different than a player's ability to hold out in the NBA or to request a trade. There is no mechanism in Europe that just allows a player to leave, as you are incorrectly implying.

4. Teams in the NBA scarcely have to trade talent in order for players to switch teams. There are numerous examples of trades based on cash considerations, picks that don't come into play for several years, or players with minimal upside. This point is quite frankly worthless.

5. Same thing as in the NBA. In the NBA, the only constraint is the salary cap. In Europe, the constraint is the owner's ability to pay. If NBA players wanted to take $200K a month to play on the same team, an all star team could be formed. Conversely, if players wanted $15M per year, Euro teams would not be able to afford to put an all star team together. Once again, this point ignores the facts and reality of the situation to speak in hypotheticals that don't work in the real world.

6. You don't like the RFA system. Fair enough. I can't argue with that. I can say that if the players wanted to avoid it, they could just go play in Europe even with a CBA in place. So far, in the past decade, the only player that I can think of doing that is Josh Childress. The players have clearly demonstrated they mind the RFA system much less than you do. And they clearly and overwhelmingly (nearly unanimously) prefer it to playing in Europe.

7. How many American players grew up dreaming of winning any of those 3 competitions? Heck, how many American players have heard of those three titles? Contrast that to the number that have dreampt of winning an NBA title?

8. You receive none of the recognition in the US that you obtain through the NBA. You don't get to compare stats and historical significance with the all-time greats. You play far less of the game that you love. I can keep going if you want.

9. At $15M a year, you can afford to live in a very nice house and drive a very nice car (that you can keep afterwards). Totalling all of the benefits financially of playing in Europe still pales in comparison to the compensation in the NBA. It really isn't close. Period.

The bottom line is that if playing in Europe was better or preferable, then players would do it more often rather than waiting for a lockout. This isn't that complicated. The players have voted with their feet on this issue for years. They prefer the NBA. Period.

As an aside, the comparison to slavery is wholly inappropriate and frankly offensive to make a comparison to a terrible part of American history (in the context of multimillionaire basketball players with numerous options). The comparison is illusory because the players can leave at any time. They simply have chosen not to.

cheetos185
07-07-2011, 04:00 PM
What do you think generates that money. I know I sure as **** don't want to watch or go to a game where the best player is Keith Bogans.

but they are not making profit so why would they bother so guys like eddy curry and rashard lewis get big $$$ again and again

Hellcrooner
07-07-2011, 04:01 PM
Your post has so many flaws that it barely warrants a response but I will try anyways. First, we all know that you are located in Spain and are a fan of European basketball players moreso than you are a fan of the NBA. You call yourself a Laker fan, but are much more a Gasol fan. The point is that your perspective on this situation can scarcely be considered as unbiased. Second, the premise in your opening paragraph that the salaries are the same is flawed and incorrect. Repeat it as many times as you want, it still won't be true.

I will address your other points in turn.

1. They get their full salary, which is a mere fraction of what they get paid in the NBA. The taxes are irrelevant if the salaries are still much less (as a take home) than it is in the NBA. The reality is Deron Williams makes about $10M a year after taxes in the US and far far less than that under his new contract (even with his team paying the taxes -- and who knows for sure whether the team is even paying the taxes). Thus, this argument is illusory. 67% of a dollar is still more than 100% of a quarter. It isn't that complicated.

2. This is an interesting point. Except that the team has to want them and many Euro teams (read: the top teams) will resist taking on NBA players with no guarantee of the length of their stay as it isn't worth disrupting team chemistry to have a player leave in two months.

3. They don't have the right to just bolt. You are overstating reality to make a point. Rather, the player can request a transfer or the team can agree to one. This is no different than a player's ability to hold out in the NBA or to request a trade. There is no mechanism in Europe that just allows a player to leave, as you are incorrectly implying.

4. Teams in the NBA scarcely have to trade talent in order for players to switch teams. There are numerous examples of trades based on cash considerations, picks that don't come into play for several years, or players with minimal upside. This point is quite frankly worthless.

5. Same thing as in the NBA. In the NBA, the only constraint is the salary cap. In Europe, the constraint is the owner's ability to pay. If NBA players wanted to take $200K a month to play on the same team, an all star team could be formed. Conversely, if players wanted $15M per year, Euro teams would not be able to afford to put an all star team together. Once again, this point ignores the facts and reality of the situation to speak in hypotheticals that don't work in the real world.

6. You don't like the RFA system. Fair enough. I can't argue with that. I can say that if the players wanted to avoid it, they could just go play in Europe even with a CBA in place. So far, in the past decade, the only player that I can think of doing that is Josh Childress. The players have clearly demonstrated they mind the RFA system much less than you do. And they clearly and overwhelmingly (nearly unanimously) prefer it to playing in Europe.

7. How many American players grew up dreaming of winning any of those 3 competitions? Heck, how many American players have heard of those three titles? Contrast that to the number that have dreampt of winning an NBA title?

8. You receive none of the recognition in the US that you obtain through the NBA. You don't get to compare stats and historical significance with the all-time greats. You play far less of the game that you love. I can keep going if you want.

9. At $15M a year, you can afford to live in a very nice house and drive a very nice car (that you can keep afterwards). Totalling all of the benefits financially of playing in Europe still pales in comparison to the compensation in the NBA. It really isn't close. Period.

The bottom line is that if playing in Europe was better or preferable, then players would do it more often rather than waiting for a lockout. This isn't that complicated. The players have voted with their feet on this issue for years. They prefer the NBA. Period.

As an aside, the comparison to slavery is wholly inappropriate and frankly offensive to make a comparison to a terrible part of American history (in the context of multimillionaire basketball players with numerous options). The comparison is illusory because the players can leave at any time. They simply have chosen not to.
1 you ar elookign short term, im looking mid term, if the best players STAY in europe, the market to pay them the SAME salarys will be created.
2 you dont have to take the word slavery directly, is just a rethoric image, but anyway, is not only a sad part of americas history, is a sad part of WORLDS history, and the saddest part is in some zones of the planet it still exists.

John Walls Era
07-07-2011, 04:17 PM
I don't think he will go. Hes getting paid 18 M in the nba, if he suffers a career ending injury (never know), he will not be insured an lose out on all of it.

el_primo_nano
07-07-2011, 04:22 PM
Deron Williams is a smart man. He stays in shape. and will get to learn a few things in Europe

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 04:36 PM
1 you ar elookign short term, im looking mid term, if the best players STAY in europe, the market to pay them the SAME salarys will be created.
2 you dont have to take the word slavery directly, is just a rethoric image, but anyway, is not only a sad part of americas history, is a sad part of WORLDS history, and the saddest part is in some zones of the planet it still exists.

1. You are suggesting that the NBA players should risk their livelihood by taking the chance that by staying in Europe, the market to pay them the same may hypothetically be created. That is one heck of a risk. It is not reasonable to expect that the players would accept that risk. In fact, that is the reason they play in the NBA in the first place. And because, you know, it is the foremost basketball league in the world. There's that too of course.

2. I hear what you are saying, but as you pointed out, slavery is a sad part of the world's history. Comparing basketball players who choose to be part of one league and to make millions at the cost of their "freedom" to choose teams to the notion of slavery is absurd and trivializes the plight of actual slaves.

Shmontaine
07-07-2011, 05:01 PM
1. You are suggesting that the NBA players should risk their livelihood by taking the chance that by staying in Europe, the market to pay them the same may hypothetically be created. That is one heck of a risk. It is not reasonable to expect that the players would accept that risk. In fact, that is the reason they play in the NBA in the first place. And because, you know, it is the foremost basketball league in the world. There's that too of course.

2. I hear what you are saying, but as you pointed out, slavery is a sad part of the world's history. Comparing basketball players who choose to be part of one league and to make millions at the cost of their "freedom" to choose teams to the notion of slavery is absurd and trivializes the plight of actual slaves.

i've never gotten the comparison of players in a sports league to slaves being owned by slavemasters/team owners... i call it a job... it's definitely a slap in the face to actual slaves who weren't paid and who's lives were held with such little regard..

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 05:06 PM
i've never gotten the comparison of players in a sports league to slaves being owned by slavemasters/team owners... i call it a job... it's definitely a slap in the face to actual slaves who weren't paid and who's lives were held with such little regard..

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

210Don
07-07-2011, 05:12 PM
when does their basketball start?

Tony_Starks
07-07-2011, 05:54 PM
Good move for DWill. If more stars follow suit this lockout will end sooner than later. It's one thing for the owners to be willing to lose a season but I doubt they're willing to risk losing a superstar to injury

imagesrdecievin
07-07-2011, 06:44 PM
It scares me as a fan that DWill might get hurt - imagine how much fear it puts into an owner.

The more players that sign overseas - the more pressure is put on owners to end this thing.

Those making the argument that owners aren't losing money because of the lockout are completely misinformed. There are a lot of costs involved with owning a team besides salaries. maybe the owners thought to themselves that they can afford to miss a season in the pursuit of a better deal - but I don't think they can or would want to miss anything more than a year.

The players seem to be much better prepared than the last lockout. I'm not expecting the owners to crumble anytime soon - but they will definitely have to come off of their hardline stance sooner rather than later. Especially the newer owners who have a lot to lose if this were to drag on longer than a season.

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 06:53 PM
It scares me as a fan that DWill might get hurt - imagine how much fear it puts into an owner.

The more players that sign overseas - the more pressure is put on owners to end this thing.

Those making the argument that owners aren't losing money because of the lockout are completely misinformed. There are a lot of costs involved with owning a team besides salaries. maybe the owners thought to themselves that they can afford to miss a season in the pursuit of a better deal - but I don't think they can or would want to miss anything more than a year.

The players seem to be much better prepared than the last lockout. I'm not expecting the owners to crumble anytime soon - but they will definitely have to come off of their hardline stance sooner rather than later. Especially the newer owners who have a lot to lose if this were to drag on longer than a season.


Your post ignores the fact that the owners have a lot of revenue coming in even without a season and that the owners will trim a ton of their other costs if the lockout continues (which sucks for the other employees who will be affected by the lockout and who are not millionaires).

The owners can easily afford to miss a season. Much easier than the players could. But it is in nobody's best interests to do so. It will be interesting to see how things play out.

I am not sure what makes you suggest that the players are better prepared. I don't think most players view it as a viable alternative to go to Europe for a fraction of the price.

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 06:55 PM
Good move for DWill. If more stars follow suit this lockout will end sooner than later. It's one thing for the owners to be willing to lose a season but I doubt they're willing to risk losing a superstar to injury

Injuries can happen at any time, even if the players aren't playing ([I]see[I] Radmanovic, Vlad or Ellis, Monta or Williams, Jay). The owners might prefer their stars to not play overseas, but they aren't going to cave because of the moderately enhanced injury risk.

imagesrdecievin
07-07-2011, 06:59 PM
Your post ignores the fact that the owners have a lot of revenue coming in even without a season and that the owners will trim a ton of their other costs if the lockout continues (which sucks for the other employees who will be affected by the lockout and who are not millionaires).

The owners can easily afford to miss a season. Much easier than the players could. But it is in nobody's best interests to do so. It will be interesting to see how things play out.

I am not sure what makes you suggest that the players are better prepared. I don't think most players view it as a viable alternative to go to Europe for a fraction of the price.

It's only a fraction of the price because DWill signed a month to month. If he gave them a year commit he'd be making a lot more. Also you are ignoring that their seasons are a lot shorter - so on a per game basis it may not be as big of a hit as you think.

Also there are certain expenses (like the interest on loans to build arenas) that cannot be reduced.

Most players probably don't consider it viable to go to Europe to play - but it only takes enough stars to sign deals in Euro to put the pressure on. Face it - the NBA is a star driven league. If the stars show they can survive without the league then all the leverage is on their side.

daleja424
07-07-2011, 07:12 PM
It's only a fraction of the price because DWill signed a month to month. If he gave them a year commit he'd be making a lot more. Also you are ignoring that their seasons are a lot shorter - so on a per game basis it may not be as big of a hit as you think.

Also there are certain expenses (like the interest on loans to build arenas) that cannot be reduced.

Most players probably don't consider it viable to go to Europe to play - but it only takes enough stars to sign deals in Euro to put the pressure on. Face it - the NBA is a star driven league. If the stars show they can survive without the league then all the leverage is on their side.

I agree with this post in it's entirety.

Raph12
07-07-2011, 07:20 PM
I'd love for all of the leagues stars to just start playing internationally, that would really show the NBA owners...

NYKalltheway
07-07-2011, 07:23 PM
when does their basketball start?

Depends on the competition... Besiktas would probably start their games in late September

daleja424
07-07-2011, 07:25 PM
While I generally think this shifts leverage to the players... there is one other angle that worries me.

Might Stern call this bluff and see it as a chance to continue to globalize the NBA brand. Wouldn't it be his dream to have NBA players on exhibition around the globe strutting their stuff...and then bring in entire markets when the NBA comes back?

NYKalltheway
07-07-2011, 07:26 PM
Deron's contract btw is not a yearly one. It's a month-to-month contract worth 200,000 EUROS for the first month. It will definitely be increasing. And if there's no new CBA agreement in January or February(whenever the deadline for the league to start is) he'll definitely sign a 5-6 month contract with either Besiktas or another European team, probably a Euroleague team which is in the Top 16 stage and would want a run for the Euroleague Final Four. Deron is not committed to Besiktas, they're just agreeing to pay him to be their marketing stud. Fair deal for both. Deron can earn much more than Besiktas as long as the lockout is season-long..

NYKalltheway
07-07-2011, 07:28 PM
While I generally think this shifts leverage to the players... there is one other angle that worries me.

Might Stern call this bluff and see it as a chance to continue to globalize the NBA brand. Wouldn't it be his dream to have NBA players on exhibition around the globe strutting their stuff...and then bring in entire markets when the NBA comes back?

1) European teams would never agree on joining the NBA under Stern's conditions

2) Some European investors, or even Americans, might risk to purchase or build arenas and create NBA teams for the new expanded league. There would be absolutely no fans for that team though except some rare cases. You'll find that when the Bobcats, or Nuggets, or Bucks, or Cavs are in town, there would be too many empty seats and too few fans. Only big market teams would have interest. So it's a bad deal for new investors

3) European sports model >>>> American sports model. No way Europeans will accept a salary cap, no way there's European teams involved in a NBA style draft and not a chance the EU would allow it anyway... It's illegal over here.

daleja424
07-07-2011, 07:37 PM
Here is a bit of a money breakdown for some of you:

Last year Deron Williams contract was for 14.9 million dollars. He would have been taxed around 40% of that... so he netted around 9 million dollars. When you convert that to Euros, Williams would have made 6.3 million Euros. Divide that by 82 games and Williams made nearly 77,000 Euro per game last year in the NBA.

Flash forward to this year. This year Deron Williams will net 5 million according to ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=6745426)... about 3.5 million euro for the season. The team Deron is going to sign with plays 40 games in a season. That means that next year in Europe, Deron will be making 87,000 Euro a game.

Moral of the story... he isn't take a pay cut. Deron will make more money per game in Turkey next year than he made in the NBA this year.

WORD

daleja424
07-07-2011, 07:39 PM
1) European teams would never agree on joining the NBA under Stern's conditions

2) Some European investors, or even Americans, might risk to purchase or build arenas and create NBA teams for the new expanded league. There would be absolutely no fans for that team though except some rare cases. You'll find that when the Bobcats, or Nuggets, or Bucks, or Cavs are in town, there would be too many empty seats and too few fans. Only big market teams would have interest. So it's a bad deal for new investors

3) European sports model >>>> American sports model. No way Europeans will accept a salary cap, no way there's European teams involved in a NBA style draft and not a chance the EU would allow it anyway... It's illegal over here.

Not at all what I meant. I just meant that some of the superstars would go play for European clubs and play really well and gather a following...and that some Euro fans might follow those players back to the NBA...thus expanding the NBA market.

For instance... if Lebron went to play in China for a year... I am sure there would be an influx of Chineese HEAT fans when he came back.

NYKalltheway
07-07-2011, 07:47 PM
Misunderstood you then :) I thought you were on the NBA European conference/division bandwagon :D

daleja424
07-07-2011, 07:49 PM
I repeat...

Deron Williams will make ten thousand more Euro per game next year than he made in the NBA this year

The money is there people...

Punk
07-07-2011, 07:51 PM
I do not want a long lockout at all and I know nobody does but the way the NBA is handling the lockout by limiting players and fining them for **** on twitter. I honestly want the see the players win this just to see the owners and league's ridiculousness come to an end.

FYI, Euroleague Basketball begins in Late October/Early November.

daleja424
07-07-2011, 07:56 PM
^This team is not a Euroleague team... they should be starting in late September...

NetsPaint
07-07-2011, 08:00 PM
Iverson and D-Will backcourt, baby!

NYKalltheway
07-07-2011, 08:01 PM
Iverson and D-Will backcourt, baby!

add Kobe there too (European teams tend to play with 3 guards very often)
Zaza Pachulia at C and some random guys rotating at PF :p

NetsPaint
07-07-2011, 08:03 PM
add Kobe there too (European teams tend to play with 3 guards very often)
Zaza Pachulia at C and some random guys rotating at PF :p
That's it....Whoever is the starting PF for that team is going to be a legend.

Punk
07-07-2011, 08:11 PM
^This team is not a Euroleague team... they should be starting in late September...

Actually, they are listed in the new group of Euroleague regular season schedule.

NYKalltheway
07-07-2011, 08:26 PM
Actually, they are listed in the new group of Euroleague regular season schedule.

The draw was today. They are not part of it, end of story ;)

JerseysFinest
07-07-2011, 08:34 PM
@Chris_Broussard Sources say Deron Williams' one-year deal in Turkey is worth $5 million. about 3 hours ago
Via Twitter

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 08:44 PM
Via Twitter

This is a fair amount more than originally reported. Still not nearly the statement for players that others are making it out to be, but much better than it would have been based on the earlier reports of the dollars involved.

daleja424
07-07-2011, 08:51 PM
This is a fair amount more than originally reported. Still not nearly the statement for players that others are making it out to be, but much better than it would have been based on the earlier reports of the dollars involved.

How is it not a statement? The guy is actually going to make more per game there than he did in the NBA last year... 15% more per game in fact...

daleja424
07-07-2011, 08:53 PM
I have a feeling he wont see most of that money b/c it seems that they deal will become more lucrative each successive month he plays for them... and I am sure the NBA will come back at some point.

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 08:55 PM
I agree with this post in it's entirety.

I will get to this momentarily. But suffice it to say that you are agreeing with a post that is factually incorrect.



Here is a bit of a money breakdown for some of you:

Last year Deron Williams contract was for 14.9 million dollars. He would have been taxed around 40% of that... so he netted around 9 million dollars. When you convert that to Euros, Williams would have made 6.3 million Euros. Divide that by 82 games and Williams made nearly 77,000 Euro per game last year in the NBA.

Flash forward to this year. This year Deron Williams will net 5 million according to ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=6745426)... about 3.5 million euro for the season. The team Deron is going to sign with plays 40 games in a season. That means that next year in Europe, Deron will be making 87,000 Euro a game.

Moral of the story... he isn't take a pay cut. Deron will make more money per game in Turkey next year than he made in the NBA this year.

WORD


I repeat...

Deron Williams will make ten thousand more Euro per game next year than he made in the NBA this year

The money is there people...

I am surprised that I have to explain this to you, but it is irrelevant to DWill how much he makes per game. He doesn't get to buy things at per game rates. Rather, his total salary controls his spending power. And that salary is less in Europe, even after adjusting for taxes and for his subsidized living expenses. Period. End of story. Giving per game figures is irrelevant.

Put in different terms: a person who makes $40/hour and works 2000 hours makes a lot more money than a person who makes $100/hour and works 500 hours. When they go to buy something, no one would care that the second person's hourly wage is higher, they would only look at total spending power.

Your argument only has any merit if you think DWill is going to play for another team as well or that he hates playing basketball so much that avoiding playing games holds some intrinsic value to him. Heck, perhaps you will argue that this could add years to his career, but the reality is that players have shown decline in their 30s regardless of games played (though I concede that more games does equal more wear and tear), and Deron isn't likely to play nearly enough extra years to make up for the lost total compensation in the meantime and the huge losses in time value of money.

Your point is illusory. It demonstrates that the Euro clubs have solid spending power, but is totally irrelevant to quality of life for the players. More to the point, no NBA owner is going to worry about that because they know that the players spend money based on total dollars earned, not per game dollars. READ: the players are still making LESS money in total. That is what matters.

WORD.

Btw, I am still waiting for you to provide your reasoning as to why the owners should be scared. Any day now, right?

daleja424
07-07-2011, 09:06 PM
His quality of life will not change. 5 million or 9 million... honestly... that does not effect his quality of life. He is still going to be pulling in millions...except now he will make that money having to do a fraction of the work and having far smaller toll taken on his body.

I understand totally that 9M>5M... but the 5M allows Deron to hold out in comfort until the owners get reasonable with their offers.

The pay is on par with the NBA overseas. There is money there... that is the point.

The owners plan has always been to sweat out the players once the checks stop coming. Well if players start defecting into European leagues... the owners lose some of that leverage. There is very little doubt of that. How can finding someone else to pay them NOT give the players more leverage?

If I am making 100k at one firm, and they want me to to take a 40% paycut... I might have to take their offer once the bills start to pile up. But if some other firm is willing to pay me 50k a year to do half of the work while I wait it out... my original firm loses some of the leverage they had against me... b/c now that I can pay my bills and live my life. I no longer feel pressured to accept their offer.

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 09:07 PM
It's only a fraction of the price because DWill signed a month to month. If he gave them a year commit he'd be making a lot more. Also you are ignoring that their seasons are a lot shorter - so on a per game basis it may not be as big of a hit as you think.

Also there are certain expenses (like the interest on loans to build arenas) that cannot be reduced.

Most players probably don't consider it viable to go to Europe to play - but it only takes enough stars to sign deals in Euro to put the pressure on. Face it - the NBA is a star driven league. If the stars show they can survive without the league then all the leverage is on their side.

I will take your paragraphs one by one. Each is fatally flawed, but you are making an effort here, so I will do the same.

1. We agree that the contract is for much less money because it is month to month instead of providing a full year commitment (or more). However, the argument is whether the owners should be worried and this is the exact reason that they shouldn't be -- a star player went overseas and took much less money to avoid having to give up an NBA season/paycheck. In other words, DWill actually demonstrated his overwhelming preference to play in the NBA by the way in which this deal is structured. If players signed guaranteed deals, then the owners might be concerned. But that simply isn't the reality at this time. The reality is that a star took much less money because he was scared to commit to a Euro team at the risk of his NBA dollars and in so doing demonstrated a preference to play in the NBA. Also, the bottom line is he took less money. As I stated in my post just above, the reality is that players don't spend money based on per game salary, they get to spend based on total salary. The per game argument is wholly irrelevant. It is nothing more than a red herring designed to ignore the fact that DWill took a paycut. A fact that remains irrefutable even as many of you waste time trying to refute it.

2. You are correct that certain expenses cannot be reduced. However, there are many revenues that continue to come in regardless of games being played. Specifically, tickets are still being sold (teams are still requiring payments for season tickets for example), merchandise is still being sold, and TV deals are generally for guaranteed dollars. In other words, the teams (read: the owners) are still making huge dollars despite the lockout while being freed from their biggest expense. On a one-year basis, many teams will do much better with the lockout than without. However, after the first year, there will be no such additional ticket revenues (in fact, refunds would likely be required) and the league will face substantial backlash in terms of irreparable relationship damage with the fans and corresponding reductions in merchandise and ticket sales (and n future TV contracts). It is not a stretch to posit that the owners will benefit from up to a one year lockout, while being harmed by anything more than that. It is tough to conceive of a lockout of any period that benefits the players in any way.

3. You say "face it" as if anyone is denying that the NBA is a star driven league or is suggesting that numerous stars heading to Europe would be a problem for the owners of the NBA. No one is saying such a thing. It just hasn't happened yet and DWill's gambit does not reflect that situation. If a bunch of stars leave for Europe with gauranteed deals, it will go a long way to breaking the owners. What happened today goes nowhere towards doing so. As an NBA fan, you would do well to "face" that fact.

daleja424
07-07-2011, 09:07 PM
Also, we are comparing that 5 mil that Deron will make this year to the 9 mil he made last year...and not considering that the NBA wants him to take a massive paycut off of his pay from last year...

making the money even closer...

hard_candy
07-07-2011, 09:10 PM
Solid move by Deron. I almost forgive him for driving Sloan out of town.

Take that, shady NBA owners!

daleja424
07-07-2011, 09:12 PM
I will take your paragraphs one by one. Each is fatally flawed, but you are making an effort here, so I will do the same.

1. We agree that the contract is for much less money because it is month to month instead of providing a full year commitment (or more). However, the argument is whether the owners should be worried and this is the exact reason that they shouldn't be -- a star player went overseas and took much less money to avoid having to give up an NBA season/paycheck. In other words, DWill actually demonstrated his overwhelming preference to play in the NBA by the way in which this deal is structured. If players signed guaranteed deals, then the owners might be concerned. But that simply isn't the reality at this time. The reality is that a star took much less money because he was scared to commit to a Euro team at the risk of his NBA dollars and in so doing demonstrated a preference to play in the NBA. Also, the bottom line is he took less money. As I stated in my post just above, the reality is that players don't spend money based on per game salary, they get to spend based on total salary. The per game argument is wholly irrelevant. It is nothing more than a red herring designed to ignore the fact that DWill took a paycut. A fact that remains irrefutable even as many of you waste time trying to refute it.

2. You are correct that certain expenses cannot be reduced. However, there are many revenues that continue to come in regardless of games being played. Specifically, tickets are still being sold (teams are still requiring payments for season tickets for example), merchandise is still being sold, and TV deals are generally for guaranteed dollars. In other words, the teams (read: the owners) are still making huge dollars despite the lockout while being freed from their biggest expense. On a one-year basis, many teams will do much better with the lockout than without. However, after the first year, there will be no such additional ticket revenues (in fact, refunds would likely be required) and the league will face substantial backlash in terms of irreparable relationship damage with the fans and corresponding reductions in merchandise and ticket sales (and n future TV contracts). It is not a stretch to posit that the owners will benefit from up to a one year lockout, while being harmed by anything more than that. It is tough to conceive of a lockout of any period that benefits the players in any way.

3. You say "face it" as if anyone is denying that the NBA is a star driven league or is suggesting that numerous stars heading to Europe would be a problem for the owners of the NBA. No one is saying such a thing. It just hasn't happened yet and DWill's gambit does not reflect that situation. If a bunch of stars leave for Europe with gauranteed deals, it will go a long way to breaking the owners. What happened today goes nowhere towards doing so. As an NBA fan, you would do well to "face" that fact.

For someone who thinks he has all the answers... you are the one with a fatal flaw in your argument. Deron's contract in Turkey has an NBA out b/c it is REQUIRED. FIBA cannot sign off on him playing without that clause b/c he is currently under contract with the Nets.

If he COULD commit fully for this year to Turkey he would probably have gotten even more money... but unfortunately he cannot do that b/c FIBA honors NBA contracts.

I agree that a single player going overseas doesn't do much... I think the point is that if this is the beginning of a trend... the NBA undoubtedly loses leverage.

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 09:13 PM
His quality of life will not change. 5 million or 9 million... honestly... that does not effect his quality of life. He is still going to be pulling in millions...except now he will make that money having to do a fraction of the work and having far smaller toll taken on his body.

I understand totally that 9M>5M... but the 5M allows Deron to hold out in comfort until the owners get reasonable with their offers.

The pay is on par with the NBA overseas... and there is money there... that is the point.

The owners plan has always been to sweat out the players once the check stop coming. Well if players start defecting into European leagues... the owners loses some of that leverage. There is very little doubt of that. How can finding someone else to pay them NOT give the players more leverage.

If I am making 100k at one firm, and they want me to to take a 40% paycut... I might have to take their offer once the bills start to pile up. But if some other firm is willing to pay me 50k a year to do half of the work while I wait it out... my original firm loses some of the leverage they had against me... b/c now that I can pay my bills and live my life I no longer feel pressured to accept their offer.

Your point about quality of life would generally be a good one. But I suspect that many athletes spend a fairly substantial portion of their money, so while there should be no tangible effect on quality of life, I imagine that the approximately 50% after tax pay cut does have a pretty dramatic influence on the players.

Your example at the bottom actually proves the flaw in your argument. You would be worried about bills piling up at 60% of 100K, but not at 50k? How does that make sense? The bills would be piling higher. Your point is that you would be working less for a comparable wage and I get that. But the reality is that this isn't half the work (an athlete trains year round regardless of the number of games, so reducing the games actually removes the most fun part of the demands of the job) and the total comp situation is still worse. Your example might fly with you (presumably you prefer to bill less hours as do most lawyers), but it doesn't work with Deron, nor does it take into account the many magnitudes removed the dollars in an NBA player's example are from yours.

Make no mistake about it -- I am not saying that the players aren't getting a bit of a raw deal if they have to just cave, after all they are the talent. I am just saying that the leverage is still all with the owners and Deron's move without any guaranteed deal being in place does literally nothing to change that. If other stars follow suit (especially with guaranteed deals), then we can talk.

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 09:16 PM
For someone who thinks he has all the answers... you are the one with a fatal flaw in your argument. Deron's contract in Turkey has an NBA out b/c it is REQUIRED. FIBA cannot sign off on him playing without that clause b/c he is currently under contract with the Nets.

If he COULD commit fully for this year to Turkey he would probably have gotten even more money... but unfortunately he cannot do that b/c FIBA honors NBA contracts.

I agree that a single player going overseas doesn't do much... I think the point is that if this is the beginning of a trend... the NBA undoubtedly loses leverage.

Wait, why is that a fatal flaw? The point remains the same -- the NBA still has the right to the players. Let's see if 2011 free agents head overseas with guaranteed deals. Blame the FIBA rules if you must, but I suspect that DWill had no interest in giving up his NBA ties to make a little more overseas. This is just a diversion for some cash flow and to keep him in shape. To assume it is anything more is asinine. There is an established history of players wanting to play in the NBA, not in Europe, regardless of the money (don't forget rumors of a $50M offer to Lebron not so long ago).

I assume you are a lawyer, but I am waiting for you to make an argument that is supported by facts or even some consistent logic. This move did nothing to help the players. If you want to amend your argument to take the position that this is the first raindrop that may start a flood, than I will agree that anything is possible. But until that happens this is just one raindrop in an ocean.

daleja424
07-07-2011, 09:26 PM
Your point about quality of life would generally be a good one. But I suspect that many athletes spend a fairly substantial portion of their money, so while there should be no tangible effect on quality of life, I imagine that the approximately 50% after tax pay cut does have a pretty dramatic influence on the players.

Your example at the bottom actually proves the flaw in your argument. You would be worried about bills piling up at 60% of 100K, but not at 50k? How does that make sense? The bills would be piling higher. Your point is that you would be working less for a comparable wage and I get that. But the reality is that this isn't half the work (an athlete trains year round regardless of the number of games, so reducing the games actually removes the most fun part of the demands of the job) and the total comp situation is still worse. Your example might fly with you (presumably you prefer to bill less hours as do most lawyers), but it doesn't work with Deron, nor does it take into account the many magnitudes removed the dollars in an NBA player's example are from yours.

Make no mistake about it -- I am not saying that the players aren't getting a bit of a raw deal if they have to just cave, after all they are the talent. I am just saying that the leverage is still all with the owners and Deron's move without any guaranteed deal being in place does literally nothing to change that. If other stars follow suit (especially with guaranteed deals), then we can talk.

I am not claiming I cannot get by on 60% of my intial salary though... and neither are the players. It is about the principle. Asking me to take a 40% paycut b/c you don't know how to run your business is offensive. So while I wait for you to come up with a better offer, I am okay living on 50k from another firm and leaving you in limbo.


Wait, why is that a fatal flaw? The point remains the same -- the NBA still has the right to the players. Let's see if 2011 free agents head overseas with guaranteed deals. Blame the FIBA rules if you must, but I suspect that DWill had no interest in giving up his NBA ties to make a little more overseas. This is just a diversion for some cash flow and to keep him in shape. To assume it is anything more is asinine. There is an established history of players wanting to play in the NBA, not in Europe, regardless of the money (don't forget rumors of a $50M offer to Lebron not so long ago).

I assume you are a lawyer, but I am waiting for you to make an argument that is supported by facts or even some consistent logic. This move did nothing to help the players. If you want to amend your argument to take the position that this is the first raindrop that may start a flood, than I will agree that anything is possible. But until that happens this is just one raindrop in an ocean.
NBA doesn't have absolute rights however... b/c without a CBA Deron can continue to earn money overseas. The NBA has their rights IF the lockout ends...which the players have to agree to... so that players have more power in this than you give them credit for.

Also, there have been a number of smaller players that have defected for guarantees in Europe.

I have no doubt that these guys would rather play in the NBA for their normal salaries, but I feel it would be silly to say this move was purely a financial one for Deron. If he desperately just needed 5 million bucks he would just take a paycut from the NBA. This move is about BOTH financial security...AND about sending a message.

Will the NBA feel this message? Maybe not so much... But already the talk has shifted to a number of other guys (including Kobe) who are looking into overseas offers. Given enough raindrops... sea level will rise...

Even if you don't think this is big deal... the players are in a better place to get their way today than they were yesterday (even if only slightly so).

Hellcrooner
07-07-2011, 09:35 PM
istanbul is not so nice

but how bout this, where woudl you rather live, cleveland ohio* or milano italy, london, paris , berlin or barcelona.


its not even close.

*nothing against cleveland ( i actually was there and seemed an ok place) just using it as an example of small market, small city in usa terms adn cold winter.

drobe86
07-07-2011, 09:35 PM
Good Move by Deron. In fact, Idk why all the NBA players just don't take their games overseas until the NBA gets its head out of its ***. Once the domino effects start and stars begin to leave, then what will the NBA do?

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 09:39 PM
1. I am not claiming I cannot get by on 60% of my intial salary though... and neither are the players. It is about the principle. Asking me to take a 40% paycut b/c you don't know how to run your business is offensive. So while I wait for you to come up with a better offer, I am okay living on 50k from another firm and leaving you in limbo.


2. NBA doesn't have absolute rights however... b/c without a CBA Deron can continue to earn money overseas. The NBA has their rights IF the lockout ends...which the players have to agree to... so that players have more power in this than you give them credit for.

Also, there have been a number of smaller players that have defected for guarantees in Europe.

I have no doubt that these guys would rather play in the NBA for their normal salaries, but I feel it would be silly to say this move was purely a financial one for Deron. If he desperately just needed 5 million bucks he would just take a paycut from the NBA. This move is about BOTH financial security...AND about sending a message.

Will the NBA feel this message? Maybe not so much... But already the talk has shifted to a number of other guys (including Kobe) who are looking into overseas offers. Given enough raindrops... sea level will rise...

Even if you don't think this is big deal... the players are in a better place to get their way today than they were yesterday (even if only slightly so).

This is a much different approach than your earlier efforts. Rather than trying to argue that this was a big strike for the players, that the owners were feeling it, or that the money is very comparable, you now are being realistic. I numbered your points for ease.

1. If your argument is that the players are willing to make less money on principle and as a way of gaining leverage, than that is a different perspective than arguing that they have a legitimate option. If this is about principle, then a bunch of players better get behind it, or the group as a whole is making a mistake. Particularly because the players could be focussing their efforts on negotiating and bridging the gap (no one could realistically believe that the owners' position is take it or leave it), rather than making admittedly less and standing on principle. Again, as a lawyer, you are (or at least should be) aware that it is a dangerous client who makes decisions on principle rather than based on strict business reasons. There is value in principle and again I commend DWill for making a tough decision. But let's not get carried away with the merits on principle of the decision.

2. You are reducing your points to the extent that they don't require much argument. If we agree that the players prefer to play in the NBA and make more money there, then this is about principle. The players will do better negotiating a deal with the owners with a pay cut included (though not the original demand of a 40% pay cut, than they will by going overseas). We seem to agree on this. With that in mind, it becomes clear that it will take a deluge of players heading overseas to have an impact and those numbers aren't there yet. The "smaller players" that you reference simply don't have the impact. But if some fellow stars join Deron there could be nothing. Which brings us full circle -- this without more means very little. It could be the start of "sometihng personal" as you put it or it could be one star's decision. This thread is interesting for the strong reactions on the player's side that it garnered, but without more players following suit, there is little to discuss here.

Whomewhome
07-07-2011, 09:41 PM
Instead of hating on the Nets, people should thank Deron Williams for what he is doing. He is putting a huge amount of pressure on the owners and the NBA to strike a deal pretty darn quickly. If reports are true that they are pursuing Kobe next, this will change the owner's stance on the new labor agreement.

So stop hating and start appreciating.

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 09:43 PM
Instead of hating on the Nets, people should thank Deron Williams for what he is doing. He is putting a huge amount of pressure on the owners and the NBA to strike a deal pretty darn quickly. If reports are true that they are pursuing Kobe next, this will change the owner's stance on the new labor agreement.

So stop hating and start appreciating.

Please read the whole thread. There is very little hating and lots of discusison of the issue you set out above.

Whomewhome
07-07-2011, 09:48 PM
Please read the whole thread. There is very little hating and lots of discusison of the issue you set out above.
I have read the whole thread, and I do agree towards the end the hating seems to diminish quite a lot. The hating is mainly by Knicks fans.

But let's face it this is about the best move for the NBA right now. If we want to see the NBA next year I hope Kobe follows Deron.

daleja424
07-07-2011, 09:50 PM
Here is the thing... the NBA has only been locked out for a week now...and already Deron is going to Europe... Kobe, Rose, and others have been linked to China... a number of rookies are taking money in Europe.

The players aren't even desperate for a paycheck yet (b/c they are used to getting no check in the summer) and already there has been some movement. In the coming weeks/months I am confident that even more guys will HAVE to make the move if progress is not made.

The fact that Williams and others are already making these moves makes me think that they are in this for the long haul. They simply will not be hosed by this deal.

The players have said repeatedly that they are better prepared for this lockout then they were in the past. These guys saw this coming a while ago and decided that they will not cave in and agree to a bad deal.

A deal will get done when the NBA makes a more reasonable starting offer. I think most people agree that 50-52% is reasonable for the players. The players have proposed 54%. If the owners made a proposition in the mid to high 40%s, a deal could come together quickly... but the owners have low balled the players at every step...

anyways...its been fun bud

NYKalltheway
07-07-2011, 09:51 PM
Just bring me Dirk for a year in Athens and I'll be a happy man there's a lockout :D

TO to the CHI
07-07-2011, 09:59 PM
Here is the thing... the NBA has only been locked out for a week now...and already Deron is going to Europe... Kobe, Rose, and others have been linked to China... a number of rookies are taking money in Europe.

The players aren't even desperate for a paycheck yet (b/c they are used to getting no check in the summer) and already there has been some movement. In the coming weeks/months I am confident that even more guys will HAVE to make the move if progress is not made.

The fact that Williams and others are already making these moves makes me think that they are in this for the long haul. They simply will not be hosed by this deal.

The players have said repeatedly that they are better prepared for this lockout then they were in the past. These guys saw this coming a while ago and decided that they will not cave in and agree to a bad deal.

A deal will get done when the NBA makes a more reasonable starting offer. I think most people agree that 50-52% is reasonable for the players. The players have proposed 54%. If the owners made a proposition in the mid to high 40%s, a deal could come together quickly... but the owners have low balled the players at every step...

anyways...its been fun bud

It certainly has been fun.

As for the rumors -- they mean little to me. There were rumors of Lebron and Kobe hearing to Europe a few years ago without a lockout. Contracts matter to me. Not rumors. If Kobe and Rose do head overseas it will be a different ballgame.

And both sides need to be reasonable, but a deal is going to require the players to appear to be the losers simply because they do have more to lose and the owners can better afford to dig their heels. Hopefully, the players will be realistic and come to the table with that in mind. They can get a good deal and remain super wealthy, but they are better served with the NBA than without it.