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JordansBulls
07-06-2011, 08:08 PM
Voting for #4 has concluded and PSD's Official #4 Player of all time is....

Earvin Magic Johnson


19.5 PPG | 7.2 RPG | 11.2 AST | 1.9 SPG | .520% FG | 24.11 PER


Achievements:
12 time All-Star
5 NBA Championships
3 Time MVP
3 Time Finals MVP
2 Time AllStar Game MVP
9 Time All-NBA First Teamer
Led the League in Assists 4 times
Led the League in Steals 2 times
138 Career Triple Doubles


Magic Johnson = 81 votes
Bill Russell = 20 votes
Larry Bird = 11 votes
Kobe Bryant = 11 votes
Shaquille O'Neal = 7 votes
Tim Duncan = 2 votes
Oscar Robertson = 1 vote
Jerry West = 1 vote


The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)
4. Magic Johnson (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632690)



NOTE:

Need you guys to start nominating so that we can do a top 25 or even top 50.

Requirement for nomination is: Player had to be an allstar at least 3+ times as a minimum or have won League MVP or an allstar 2+ times with finals MVP.
Doing it this way gets rid of posters who would put guys like Cedric Maxwell who although he has a finals mvp never was an allstar.

NYKalltheway
07-06-2011, 08:09 PM
Larry Bird, before the poll is up :)

Sadds The Gr8
07-06-2011, 08:11 PM
gotta be Russell here.

Chacarron
07-06-2011, 08:12 PM
Voted for Russell, nominate The Admiral.

Raoul Duke
07-06-2011, 08:14 PM
I voted Larry Bird, and I nominate John Stockton.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-06-2011, 08:14 PM
Russell. Nominate Elgin Baylor.

JordansBulls
07-06-2011, 08:15 PM
I think after #5 it gets real interesting from that 6 to 9 range. Any of Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan can pretty much make a case for that #6.


Nomination: David Robinson

Chacarron
07-06-2011, 08:17 PM
I think after #5 it gets real interesting from that 6 to 9 range. Any of Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan can pretty much make a case for that #6.


Nomination: David Robinson

You forgot Larry Legend.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-06-2011, 08:20 PM
I hope no one ruins this and puts Kobe here.

210Don
07-06-2011, 08:21 PM
timmy

Ebbs
07-06-2011, 08:30 PM
Larry Legend! I think he is better than Magic but he needsto go immediately after Magic regardless.

Nominate John Stockton

GoPacers33
07-06-2011, 08:32 PM
B Russ

GoPacers33
07-06-2011, 08:33 PM
Nominate Miller

Heediot
07-06-2011, 08:35 PM
Duncan, nominate David Robinson

Bruno
07-06-2011, 08:37 PM
Went with the all time leader in championships and defensive win-shares. I think prime, 2000 Shaq represents the highest peak out of any player left, but I think Russ had the better career. He's also conveniently 5th in total MVP award shares.

knightstemplar
07-06-2011, 08:47 PM
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

NYKalltheway
07-06-2011, 08:51 PM
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

8. Hakeem
9. Oscar Robertson
10. Duncan
:clap:

knightstemplar
07-06-2011, 08:52 PM
8. Hakeem
9. Oscar Robertson
10. Duncan
:clap:

lol
oscar - his 1 ring and inflated fast paced 60s stats
kobe>>oscar

and if you dont believe me that the pace was way faster - http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

thats the only reason he averaged a triple double, and he only won one championship, not top 10 worthy

1961-62: 118.8 PPG, 107.7 FGA, 71.4 RPG
2010-11: 99.6 PPG, 81.2 FGA, 41.4 RPG

Heediot
07-06-2011, 08:57 PM
Duncan won three titles without help from another Hall of Famer (Ginobili is borderline at best and its probably unlikely he makes it). He did this going twice against a squad with two top 15 players of all-time (Lakers Kobe & Shaq) in their prime. He won the first with David Robinson, but he was not the same after injuries. The Admiral was still a good player, but not the great player he was before the injury. The final ship was a cake walk. He was a top 2 defender during his prime years. Ben Wallace deserves the nod in half of those years. All NBA first team 9 times comparable to Shaq and Kobe. Two time MVP comparable to Shaq and Kobe.

Hawkeye15
07-06-2011, 08:58 PM
Larry Legend

My irrationality comes out here. Larry was an idol of mine, and I think he might be the most skilled player to ever step on a basketball floor

JordansBulls
07-06-2011, 09:00 PM
You forgot Larry Legend.

Yeah, I guess 6 thru 10.


Poster by the name of "Colts" came up with this. So I am interested to see those Shaq vs Bird debates as well



I don't get why anyone would have Bird ahead of Shaq. Literally makes no sense.

More seasons: 19-13
More prime seasons: 15-12
Better Prime: Shaq was 30-15 for 3 straight playoffs
Longer Peak: 12 years-10 years
All-star games: 15-12
All-NBA teams: 15-10 (Shaq had harder competition)
Better Peak: Shaq 2000-2002>Bird 84-86
Better PER and WS
More rings: 4 to 3
Better defender
-Shaq had 5 straight PER titles, and 10 FG% titles
Playoffs:
-Shaq's Pts, rebs, asts went up
-Bird's numbers declined in the playoffs
This is what Shaq did in the playoffs from 98-03:
31-10-3
27-12-2
31-15-3
30-15-3
29-13-3
27-15-4


If you just put up Shaq's first 13 seasons vs. Bird, it's no comparison.

Shaq averaged 26-12-3, 3 blks, 58 FG%, Better PER, better WS. In the playoffs he averaged 27-13-3.

I don't think anyone in history can compare to Shaq's 98-03 6 year prime other than MJ and Kareem.

JordansBulls
07-06-2011, 09:04 PM
Duncan won three titles without help from another Hall of Famer (Ginobili is borderline at best and its probably unlikely he makes it). He did this going twice against a squad with two top 15 players of all-time (Lakers Kobe & Shaq) in their prime. He won the first with David Robinson, but he was not the same after injuries. The Admiral was still a good player, but not the great player he was before the injury. The final ship was a cake walk. He was a top 2 defender during his prime years. Ben Wallace deserves the nod in half of those years. All NBA first team 9 times comparable to Shaq and Kobe. Two time MVP comparable to Shaq and Kobe.

Duncan came in with prime Robinson on his team who was averaging 21/11/3

Also let's not forget that the Spurs were tied 2-2 with the Mavs in 2003 and then Dirk was out the rest of the series.


In 2005 RS

Duncan 11.2 WS in 2005
Manu 11.0 WS in 2005


2005 Playoffs

Duncan 24.9 PER
Manu 24.8 PER

Duncan 3.5 WS
Manu 4.2 WS


2007 he had two other guys with 21+ PER and his teammate won Finals mvp.


In 1999 RS

Duncan 8.7 WS
Robinson 8.4 WS

Duncan 23.2 PER
Robinson 24.9 PER

CHANGO
07-06-2011, 09:06 PM
Bill Russell

Raoul Duke
07-06-2011, 09:07 PM
Poster by the name of "Colts" came up with this. So I am interested to see those Shaq vs Bird debates as well

Shaq had too many flaws in his game for me to put him ahead of Bird. You could foul the hell out of him and a lot of times minimize his impact, although through most of his good years he had great wing players to help with that. There really wasn't anything you could do to stop Bird. People just had to hope that he would have an off night. Plus I think Bird was a better defender because although he wasn't very athletic he had some of the best instincts in basketball history and he understood and executed team defense. Shaq was great to have defensively because he was a space eater.

Shaq was the ****ing man, but I'd take Bird over him in a draft.

Heediot
07-06-2011, 09:18 PM
Duncan came in with prime Robinson on his team who was averaging 21/11/3

Also let's not forget that the Spurs were tied 2-2 with the Mavs in 2003 and then Dirk was out the rest of the series.


In 2005 RS

Duncan 11.2 WS in 2005
Manu 11.0 WS in 2005


2005 Playoffs

Duncan 24.9 PER
Manu 24.8 PER

Duncan 3.5 WS
Manu 4.2 WS


2007 he had two other guys with 21+ PER and his teammate won Finals mvp.


In 1999 RS

Duncan 8.7 WS
Robinson 8.4 WS

Duncan 23.2 PER
Robinson 24.9 PER

Yeah Ginobli played better than normal in the 2005 run. David Robinson was on the tail end of his prime, comparable to how Duncan played last year (09-10). He was borderline good/great. Robinson was still highly effective nonethless. Still 3 finals MVP is pretty damn good.

X12Celtics3
07-06-2011, 09:49 PM
Bill Russell, followed by Larry Bird. Personally I think that Russell should have gone earlier than this, but I guess that could be do to my fairly obvious bias. I voted for Russell in the past two polls, too...

NBAfan4life
07-06-2011, 10:11 PM
Kobe being my all time favorite player I still think Shaq deserves to be the 5th greatest player of alltime.

I have Kobe at 6.

I dont want to waste my vote here and vote for Shaq so i guess I'm going to wait to vote

Master Mind
07-06-2011, 10:15 PM
Bill Russell

gmckenziejr82
07-06-2011, 10:38 PM
Gotta go Shaq here. I understand Russell was a winner and larry is the legend, but considering shaq could be even better than he was is part of why I choose him here. Will explain more tomorrow, just needed to get my vote in before bed.

gmckenziejr82
07-06-2011, 10:39 PM
Oh I nominate Elgin Baylor

Bruno
07-06-2011, 10:47 PM
Gotta go Shaq here. I understand Russell was a winner and larry is the legend, but considering shaq could be even better than he was is part of why I choose him here. Will explain more tomorrow, just needed to get my vote in before bed.

Thats funny, I'm the opposite. I hesitate to pick him because I feel he underachieved. Like Phil Jackson said when he joined the Lakers in 1999, the MVP award should have been named after Shaq by the time he was done.

Phil isn't hesitant to express that belief, even today, and I tend to agree with him.

Lloyd Christmas
07-06-2011, 10:49 PM
Bird. Nominate Rick Barry.

Venomous88
07-06-2011, 11:04 PM
Between Kobe and Bird for me. I can go with either one

John Walls Era
07-06-2011, 11:28 PM
No matter what, the Greatest Celtic player will be chosen.

Jewelz0376
07-07-2011, 12:03 AM
I look at Russell and Magic in the same way kind of...Russell is one of the best defensive players of all-time but was offensively challenged (never shot above 50% from field)... Magic was one of the greatest offensive players of all time but defensively challenge... Both of them are as good as it gets when it comes to leadership and other intangibles...

I went with Russell here, and then I'll probably go Bird next.... Then its between Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan

WadeKobe
07-07-2011, 12:35 AM
Jerry West.... again. :sigh:

kozelkid
07-07-2011, 12:45 AM
Larry Legend

My irrationality comes out here. Larry was an idol of mine, and I think he might be the most skilled player to ever step on a basketball floor

Same. I concede to the fact that Shaq and probably Hakeem are better, but I just can't have Larry not be right after Magic. They are synonymous for me. :laugh2:

tredigs
07-07-2011, 12:56 AM
I'll take Russell. Basketball IQ, "neurotic drive to win", defensive and rebounding prowess that are only matched by the GOATS at each of the above categories, and none of them possess all at the same time. A highly underrated offensive game as well, the man could indeed score if his team needed it, and did so in bulk on many occasions against Wilt in the Finals (I have read about many occasions where Russell was outscoring Wilt throughout the game, but the Celtics put the game out of contention by the beginning of the 4th, at which point Wilt would put up empty points and finish the game with the higher total. By no means was he the scorer that Wilt was, but it goes to show that he was capable of it if that's what it was going to take to win that night. FAR from some liability as some here like to contest. He was very good at it). His passing was also among the upper echelon we've seen from the center position.


Now, the guy was not a saint. When he left the team (after posting 21 boards in his last NBA game as a PLAYER/COACH and beating the heavily favored Lakers in the Finals), he just up and retired and cut all ties with the team. The Celtics were terrible the next season and didn't even make the playoffs. He just flat out never felt he owed anybody a thing. But, his borderline unhealthy drive to dominate everyone in his path made for the greatest winner in not just basketball, but arguably any sport.

There are dozens upon dozens of quotes, stats, video to back up Russell and his immense worth as a player in comparison to some of the others on this list that somebody with more time and dedication should start posting. I'm gonna head to sleep myself. But Russell is very due at 5, and I was actually hoping that better arguments would have been made for him at this point.

Kashmir13579
07-07-2011, 01:09 AM
Shaq has had my vote since the 2 spot.

naps
07-07-2011, 01:12 AM
Gotta be Bill Russell here.

MTar786
07-07-2011, 01:17 AM
its gotta be kobe or russel. but bird???????? wtf?????????? no way. bird should be after guys like Oscar and shaq! and THEN on par with a player like dream.
then you can go with the likes of a tim duncan, jerry west type

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 01:21 AM
Kobe no one is as close to Jordan as Kobe then you add in all Kobe has accomplished and he rightfully should be number 5 and at the very least #6 but I don't really care about where psd has Kobe ranked, I'll go by what most analyst say and that's that Kobe is top 5 ever already! At the end of the day when it's all said and done and written in stone I truly believe Kobe will be #2 or #3 all-time!

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 01:22 AM
its gotta be kobe or russel. but bird???????? wtf?????????? no way. bird should be after guys like Oscar and shaq! and THEN on par with a player like dream.
then you can go with the likes of a tim duncan, jerry west type

This!

MTar786
07-07-2011, 01:22 AM
its sad to think with shaqs potential. he could have UNARGUABLY been number 1 on this list. why did he have to just settle for being fat :(

MTar786
07-07-2011, 01:26 AM
Kobe no one is as close to Jordan as Kobe then you add in all Kobe has accomplished and he rightfully should be number 5 and at the very least #6 but I don't really care about where psd has Kobe ranked, I'll go by what most analyst say and that's that Kobe is top 5 ever already! At the end of the day when it's all said and done and written in stone I truly believe Kobe will be #2 or #3 all-time!

totally agree. in my eyes kobe is already top 3. if someone told me kobe is better than magic id hear him out. and if someone told me magic is better than kobe id still hear him out. fine. mj and kareem at 1 and 2. but 3a and 3b are kobe and magic.
at the end of kobes career id give him the 3 spot for sure and maybe even the 2.

i have no idea why bird is rated so high. he had a super team and still only got 3 rings.

I can deal with russel getting 5 over kobe only because of his 11 rings. but that would be the last straw for me. seeing bird over kobe would be the last straw for me. COMPLETE ignorance

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 01:31 AM
totally agree. in my eyes kobe is already top 3. if someone told me kobe is better than magic id hear him out. and if someone told me magic is better than kobe id still hear him out. fine. mj and kareem at 1 and 2. but 3a and 3b are kobe and magic.
at the end of kobes career id give him the 3 spot for sure and maybe even the 2.

i have no idea why bird is rated so high. he had a super team and still only got 3 rings.

I can deal with russel getting 5 over kobe only because of his 11 rings. but that would be the last straw for me. seeing bird over kobe would be the last straw for me. COMPLETE ignorance


Especially since Kobe has more championships, has the better stats, was the better defensive player, and Most importantly he has won more with less talent not to mention he holds alot more records then bird, and should probably have about 3 Mvps by now!

MiamiBoy77
07-07-2011, 01:49 AM
Voted Russell, Nominating Lebron

Chronz
07-07-2011, 02:07 AM
Went with the all time leader in championships and defensive win-shares. I think prime, 2000 Shaq represents the highest peak out of any player left, but I think Russ had the better career. He's also conveniently 5th in total MVP award shares.
Just so we're clear you do know that WinShares are calculated differently for his era.


Shaq had too many flaws in his game for me to put him ahead of Bird. You could foul the hell out of him and a lot of times minimize his impact, although through most of his good years he had great wing players to help with that.
Heres the problem, when the weakest you could minimize Shaq came to holding him to what essentially amounts to +.500FG% and at the cost of entering the penalty, then its not much of a weakness. If Bird wasnt as flawed then what prevented him from ever pouring it on? Why did he have so many bad series?


There really wasn't anything you could do to stop Bird. People just had to hope that he would have an off night.
You cant be serious, Bird had several series where he did indeed have off nights, he always made an impact on the game regardless of those struggles scoring, but so did Shaq. The REAL difference is that Shaq would never be held to low% scoring.


Plus I think Bird was a better defender because although he wasn't very athletic he had some of the best instincts in basketball history and he understood and executed team defense. Shaq was great to have defensively because he was a space eater.

Larry Bird got so bad defensively as he aged that the team had to put their PF on any SF that could score. Yes he was a great team defender but you never had to hide Shaq 1 on 1, throughout his prime he was a good defender and at his peak a historically imposing one. Bird was never that dominant defensively.

Chronz
07-07-2011, 02:19 AM
I'll take Russell. Basketball IQ, "neurotic drive to win", defensive and rebounding prowess that are only matched by the GOATS at each of the above categories, and none of them possess all at the same time. A highly underrated offensive game as well, the man could indeed score if his team needed it, and did so in bulk on many occasions against Wilt in the Finals
High IQ so long as he never had to worry about scoring. A man with an underrated game would have made his team better offensively with his addition. The Celtics werent ever offensive powerhouses, they won on defense. If you want to hype him up on that end (even though Hakeem is better on both ends) then go ahead, but his offense was far from underrated. His own teammates said he couldnt score for ****.


(I have read about many occasions where Russell was outscoring Wilt throughout the game, but the Celtics put the game out of contention by the beginning of the 4th, at which point Wilt would put up empty points and finish the game with the higher total.
Hardly, Wilt usually dominated Russell, what your referring to is basically Wilt's catch-22. If you read some of the literature of the days and even now, you will find that Russ would make the claim that he would "allow" Wilt to score alot early and totally change the game plan in the 4th. On the other hand when Wilt would rally his team late, only to come up short, they said the stats were hollow. I would appreciate game examples because Im sure I can come up with twice as many in which Wilt thoroughly outplayed Russ.


By no means was he the scorer that Wilt was, but it goes to show that he was capable of it if that's what it was going to take to win that night. FAR from some liability as some here like to contest. He was very good at it). His passing was also among the upper echelon we've seen from the center position.

I respect your intelligence tre, I really do but why would you take him before Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan?


Now, the guy was not a saint. When he left the team (after posting 21 boards in his last NBA game as a PLAYER/COACH and beating the heavily favored Lakers in the Finals), he just up and retired and cut all ties with the team. The Celtics were terrible the next season and didn't even make the playoffs. He just flat out never felt he owed anybody a thing. But, his borderline unhealthy drive to dominate everyone in his path made for the greatest winner in not just basketball, but arguably any sport.

Having the most talent in a really small league with little player movement certainly doesnt hurt in that conquest does it? Im not saying that was always the case, Im saying we should compare their playoff runs in depth.

Chronz
07-07-2011, 02:21 AM
Larry Legend

My irrationality comes out here. Larry was an idol of mine, and I think he might be the most skilled player to ever step on a basketball floor


Same. I concede to the fact that Shaq and probably Hakeem are better, but I just can't have Larry not be right after Magic. They are synonymous for me. :laugh2:

EMO kids

Lakersfan2483
07-07-2011, 02:27 AM
Bill Russell.

Nomination for the top 25: Isaiah Thomas and Moses Malone.

WadeKobe
07-07-2011, 03:38 AM
:cry: if Jerry West doesn't go top 10 I will murder someone. Oh the tragedy. The guy shot 47% from the field as a wing in an era where the league average was 43%. He is a top 5 pure shooter in league history, was averaging 7 rebounds a game some years as a 6'5'' combo guard, and has some of the best PER numbers in the history of the game when you account for all the stats he's missing. I don't understand. :(

ChiSox219
07-07-2011, 03:48 AM
EMO kids

:laugh2:

Korman12
07-07-2011, 04:26 AM
Russell, nominate Havlicek

gsgs49
07-07-2011, 07:50 AM
Shaquille O'neal
I nominate David Robinson.

Mochalman
07-07-2011, 07:51 AM
Its obviously Tim Duncan. B-Russ played with how many HoF'ers?

J-Relo
07-07-2011, 07:55 AM
Especially since Kobe has more championships, has the better stats, was the better defensive player, and Most importantly he has won more with less talent not to mention he holds alot more records then bird, and should probably have about 3 Mvps by now!

Kobe won when he had the best talent in his team compared to other teams that year. SHAQ?

Raoul Duke
07-07-2011, 08:30 AM
Heres the problem, when the weakest you could minimize Shaq came to holding him to what essentially amounts to +.500FG% and at the cost of entering the penalty, then its not much of a weakness. If Bird wasnt as flawed then what prevented him from ever pouring it on? Why did he have so many bad series?

It is my understanding that he poured it on quite frequently. And my problem with Shaq was that it hurt his teams at the end of games. Shaq was often a non-factor at the end of close games becuase he was a liability at the line, whereas with Bird it was a forgone conclusion that he was getting the ball and making the play.


You cant be serious, Bird had several series where he did indeed have off nights, he always made an impact on the game regardless of those struggles scoring, but so did Shaq. The REAL difference is that Shaq would never be held to low% scoring.

Yeah, Bird had a few big playoff series where he shot his team right out of the game. Thats why I don't have him ranked any higher.


Larry Bird got so bad defensively as he aged that the team had to put their PF on any SF that could score. Yes he was a great team defender but you never had to hide Shaq 1 on 1, throughout his prime he was a good defender and at his peak a historically imposing one. Bird was never that dominant defensively.

Bird didn't have to age to be a terrible one on one defender. He got eaten alive by inferior players with superior athleticism. However, he did have bigs that could check small forwards and he did play elite team defense, so it's kind of a moot point. It also proves my point because despite his many flaws Bird was a much more reliable and versatile defender than Shaq. Shaq had a huge body that took up lots of space, and thats great for the NBA, but he couldn't defend anyone more than two feet from the basket. How often did you ever see Shaq chase a ball? How often did you ever see him really lay himself out for a block?

Larry Bird's peak stretch numbers per 36 minutes...

25.8ppg, 8.9rpg, 6.2apg, 1.6st, .8blk, 2.2a/to, all up in the 50/40/90 club.

I'm not as good with the stats interpretation as you are, Chronz, but I find nothing to dislike about Bird's peak numbers. They stack up against pretty much anybody.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-07-2011, 08:44 AM
Kobe won when he had the best talent in his team compared to other teams that year. SHAQ?

I was just about to say that.

MiamiWadeCounty
07-07-2011, 08:47 AM
Larry. Nominate Stockton

mfb_lt1birdman
07-07-2011, 09:09 AM
Looks like Russell is going to take this. I feel it should be between Russell and Kobe. I will save my Bird vs Kobe for #6 but there are very few stats and accolades that Bird surpasses Kobe at today, let alone a few years from now when Kobe retires.

Not having seen Russell play its hard to argue being an 11 time champ, and 5x MVP winner. But in a small league, playing amongst a dynasty and multiple hall off famers, its hard to know just how to value all that. His offensive stats are unimpressive. A rebounding monster for sure. People praise his defense, but he only made all defensive first team once. NBA first team 3 times. I dunno really. Those trophies are hard to argue against though.

Geargo Wallace
07-07-2011, 10:36 AM
I went with Bird again for the same reasons as before.

Crackadalic
07-07-2011, 11:49 AM
Vote for Russel. Nominated Jerry West

Hawkeye15
07-07-2011, 11:54 AM
EMO kids

oh I am not stupid. I know a case can be made for a few players over Bird here. But I idolized him as a kid, he was my Dad's favorite player, and we watched him throughout the 80's, so its a completely irrational, biased opinion on my part. Its not as if I am comparing KG to Shaq here. I am simply sticking with my idol on this one. Hell, at least I can admit it, unlike some fans of players here (not naming names, but you know exactly who you are)

Da Knicks
07-07-2011, 11:59 AM
Bird goes in here and i nominate Stockton

Jetsguy
07-07-2011, 12:05 PM
man Shaq is being underrated here. I would of liked to see how many chips he would have won on Russell's teams

Geargo Wallace
07-07-2011, 12:05 PM
Bird would **** on Russel.

THE GIPPER
07-07-2011, 12:09 PM
Looks like Russell is going to take this. I feel it should be between Russell and Kobe. I will save my Bird vs Kobe for #6 but there are very few stats and accolades that Bird surpasses Kobe at today, let alone a few years from now when Kobe retires.

Not having seen Russell play its hard to argue being an 11 time champ, and 5x MVP winner. But in a small league, playing amongst a dynasty and multiple hall off famers, its hard to know just how to value all that. His offensive stats are unimpressive. A rebounding monster for sure. People praise his defense, but he only made all defensive first team once. NBA first team 3 times. I dunno really. Those trophies are hard to argue against though.

ewww kobe is so overrated its not even funny

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Kobe won when he had the best talent in his team compared to other teams that year. SHAQ?

So Kobe teams are > birds teams?? Hells no the celtics were stacked

Minimal
07-07-2011, 12:25 PM
Most underrated player of all time - Big O

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 12:27 PM
ewww kobe is so overrated its not even funny

Or maybe you hate him so much that you don't want him to be ranked so high, look up at the names still up there, then look at what Kobe has accomplished compared to the others, then come tell me he's still overrated

THE GIPPER
07-07-2011, 12:29 PM
Or maybe you hate him so much that you don't want him to be ranked so high, look up at the names still up there, then look at what Kobe has accomplished compared to the others, then come tell me he's still overrated

Hes still extremely overrated.

juno10
07-07-2011, 12:31 PM
Hes still extremely overrated.

agree

JordansBulls
07-07-2011, 12:38 PM
This is where it gets tricky because you can make a case for anyone know with Bird, Shaq, Russell, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan depending on what you value.

Bird came into a team that the year before wasn't that great, but still he went to a winning franchise that had just won 2 titles in the prior 6 years before he arrived.
Shaq turned Orlando into contenders and then jumped shipped to a winning organization in LA.
Duncan was able to finally put the Spurs over the top but then again he didn't really inherit a terrible team. Sure recordwise he did but that was due to Robinson being out all year the season before. Would have been intestering had a gone somewhere else with no star from the get go.
Hakeem came to the Rockets a team that had the #1 pick th year before and immediately played with a star player for 4 years before that player got injured.
And Kobe went to LA where he was with Shaq who was a top 4 player in the league at the time.

I'm not really sure who to go with right now, but putting together how each won as the man, it is very interesting.

Thus far the top 4 all time that we have voted each of them have at least 3 MVP's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html

Here are the MVP shares of these guys.


3. Larry Bird* 5.693
5. Bill Russell* 4.827
6. Shaquille O'Neal 4.380
9. Tim Duncan 4.205
10. Kobe Bryant 3.763
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 2.611


Bird has the highest MVP shares here and he finished top 2 on 7x times and top 3 on 8x times.
That's significant because only MJ and Kareem and Russell are tied or ahead of him in finishing that many times in the top 2 and 3 in MVP voting.

Hakeem 9-2 in series with HCA
Russell 22-1 in series with HCA
Bird 24-7 in series with HCA (has the most losses with HCA but interesting tidbit is 0-3 without it.
Duncan 21-5 in Series with HCA
Shaq 24-5 in Series with HCA
Kobe 24-2 in series with HCA

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 12:53 PM
Lol laker fans who have no argument to justify kobe being as good as they say he is!

It's all in kobes resume buddy I don't need to know anything else to know he is the best player still on the board!

Put it this way you take away russells 11 rings and kobes 5 rings and if both had no rings Kobe still ***** all over russells career accomplishments

You do the same with Larry bird and Kobe>Bird

Idk why you say he's overrated without stating anything that proves your case

juno10
07-07-2011, 01:03 PM
It's all in kobes resume buddy I don't need to know anything else to know he is the best player still on the board!

Put it this way you take away russells 11 rings and kobes 5 rings and if both had no rings Kobe still ***** all over russells career accomplishments

You do the same with Larry bird and Kobe>Bird

Idk why you say he's overrated without stating anything that proves your case

played behind shaq for five rings which some seemed rigged. than he finally won his own in his 30's, the title he won last year arguably pau deserved to be finals mvp.
before he got pau he put up big numbers on mediocre teams.

Heediot
07-07-2011, 01:06 PM
played behind shaq for five rings which some seemed rigged. than he finally won his own in his 30's, the title he won last year arguably pau deserved to be finals mvp.
before he got pau he put up big numbers on mediocre teams.

his record without a good/great big man hovers 500!

todu82
07-07-2011, 01:10 PM
Bill Russell

Raoul Duke
07-07-2011, 01:10 PM
It's all in kobes resume buddy I don't need to know anything else to know he is the best player still on the board!

Put it this way you take away russells 11 rings and kobes 5 rings and if both had no rings Kobe still ***** all over russells career accomplishments

You do the same with Larry bird and Kobe>Bird

Idk why you say he's overrated without stating anything that proves your case

Kobe had a longer peak but Bird's peak was more impressive, at least in my opinion. Bird took better care of the ball, scored more efficiently and impacted the game in more ways than Kobe.

Also, how many players on this poll did Bird have as teammates? Kobe won three championships with a guy that'll likely place ahead of him on this poll.

I know it's tough to look past the 81pt game and the 35ppg season, but you really should pull up Bird's career #'s and give them a look. Even if they don't change your opinion, you'll at least see how thin the margin is that seperates any of these all-time talents.

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 01:13 PM
played behind shaq for five rings which some seemed rigged. than he finally won his own in his 30's, the title he won last year arguably pau deserved to be finals mvp.
before he got pau he put up big numbers on mediocre teams.

Played behind shaq for 5 rings? Last time I checked they only won 3 together, and Kobe had as much to do with them as shaq! Kobe is the greatest #2 option ever! And last years finals MVP should have been gasols? Did you forget analyst after game 5 of the finals were even saying that if the lakers lost the championship that Kobe should still get the finals MVP. So idk what you were watching but Kobe absolutely deserved both his 2 finals Mvps. And what did you expect him to do with those teams? Did you expect him to be a 20ppg player? Ofcourse he averaged big numbers and that's because he wanted to make the playoffs and for that he was giving it his all for the lakers!

Kobe is top 5 and will be top 3 when it's all said and done.

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 01:21 PM
Kobe had a longer peak but Bird's peak was more impressive, at least in my opinion. Bird took better care of the ball, scored more efficiently and impacted the game in more ways than Kobe.

Also, how many players on this poll did Bird have as teammates? Kobe won three championships with a guy that'll likely place ahead of him on this poll.

I know it's tough to look past the 81pt game and the 35ppg season, but you really should pull up Bird's career #'s and give them a look. Even if they don't change your opinion, you'll at least see how thin the margin is that seperates any of these all-time talents.

LARRY BIRD:
3 NBA Champion (1981, 1984, 1986)
3 NBA Most Valuable Player (19841986)
12 NBA All-Star (19801988, 19901992)
2 NBA Finals MVP (1984, 1986)
9 All-NBA First Team (19801988)
All-NBA Second Team (1990)
3 NBA All-Defensive Second Team (19821984)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1980)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1980)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1982)
3 Three-point Shootout champion (19861988)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team


KOBE BRYANT
5 NBA Champion (2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010)
2 NBA Finals MVP (20092010)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2008)
13 NBA All-Star (1998, 20002011)
2 NBA scoring champion (20062007)
9 All-NBA First Team (20022004, 20062011)
2 All-NBA Second Team (20002001)
2 All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2005)
9 All-Defensive First Team (2000, 20032004, 20062011)
2 All-Defensive Second Team (20012002)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1997)
4 NBA All-Star Game MVP (2002, 2007, 2009, 2011)
NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1997)



Now you add the fact that Kobe holds alot of NBA RECORDS and his team weren't as talented as birds overall, and how did Larry impact the game more overall if Kobe is absolutely the better offensive and defensive player

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 01:24 PM
his record without a good/great big man hovers 500!

Yeah having Chris mihm as your center kwame brown at PF and smash Parker at pg is really gonna make his team a contender lmfao

Raoul Duke
07-07-2011, 01:25 PM
^I said numbers, not accolades and awards. And how is Kobe "absolutely the better offensive and defensive player" when Bird scored way more efficiently and killed Kobe in assists and rebounding along with the advanced stats associated with each?

Avenged
07-07-2011, 01:30 PM
Voted for Larry Bird.

Heediot
07-07-2011, 01:38 PM
Yeah having Chris mihm as your center kwame brown at PF and smash Parker at pg is really gonna make his team a contender lmfao

If he was as good as you claim he wouldn't be a 500 player after Shaq left and before Pau came. Besides he got pieces for Shaq like Odom, Butler, Grant, and not like Shaq got away as a FA. Also if he's as good as you claim it doesn't matter who's around him, he would make his teammates better. He's not the type of player that elevates his teammates. He's a amazing individual player that you need when you have other pieces around.

WadeKobe
07-07-2011, 01:39 PM
Most underrated player of all time - Big O

How is Big O underrated? The dude gets mad cred.

Sixerlover
07-07-2011, 01:42 PM
Vote SHAQ

juno10
07-07-2011, 01:52 PM
Yeah having Chris mihm as your center kwame brown at PF and smash Parker at pg is really gonna make his team a contender lmfao

lebron would have taken them to the finals maybe kobe could have done it if he didn't quit against the suns.

J-Relo
07-07-2011, 02:00 PM
Kobe shouldn't be ahead of Shaq or Duncan.

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 02:01 PM
If he was as good as you claim he wouldn't be a 500 player after Shaq left and before Pau came. Besides he got pieces for Shaq like Odom, Butler, Grant, and not like Shaq got away as a FA. Also if he's as good as you claim it doesn't matter who's around him, he would make his teammates better. He's not the type of player that elevates his teammates. He's a amazing individual player that you need when you have other pieces around.

Lol have you heard what caron butler and all his ex teammates have said after they left the lakers? He said Kobe made him a better Player! Btw caron was only with the lakers for 1 year and that the year the lakers didn't make the playoffs because Kobe and Lamar were injured a combined half a year

WadeKobe
07-07-2011, 02:04 PM
Why do LA fans like Kobe better than Shaq? I don't get it.

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 02:05 PM
lebron would have taken them to the finals maybe kobe could have done it if he didn't quit against the suns.

What makes you think Lebrik would have taken them to the finals? Lebron was an immature little brat in 06' an he still is Kobe was by far the best player in the league, no way Lebron would have taken them to the finals! I mean Lebron couldn't even bring a championship to the heat with wade and Chris bosh on his team hahaha don't overrated Lebron buddy

Sadds The Gr8
07-07-2011, 02:05 PM
Why do LA fans like Kobe better than Shaq? I don't get it.

he's been there his whole career and brought them more titles i'd guess...

Geargo Wallace
07-07-2011, 02:06 PM
Imagine Kobe made someone better in his career. His coach even has to tell him to pass the rock. Kobe shouldn't be mentioned with great team players like Bird, Magic, Timmy D, Hakeem etc...

Geargo Wallace
07-07-2011, 02:07 PM
What makes you think Lebrik would have taken them to the finals? Lebron was an immature little brat in 06' an he still is Kobe was by far the best player in the league, no way Lebron would have taken them to the finals! I mean Lebron couldn't even bring a championship to the heat with wade and Chris bosh on his team hahaha don't overrated Lebron buddy

LeBron played 1 season in Miami so far... didn't they lose in 6 to the team that swept Kobe in 4?

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 02:08 PM
Why do LA fans like Kobe better than Shaq? I don't get it.

Because he has always been a Laker and he has brought us 5 championships an is arguably the greatest Laker ever! Shaq left on bad terms, trashed our owner, and then to top it all off he said MIAMI>LA! I mean I like shaq compared to other laker fans but you have to be stupid not to rank Kobe as the better lakers and the better overall player as well and once Kobe retired this won't even be a debate!

naps
07-07-2011, 02:09 PM
It's all in kobes resume buddy I don't need to know anything else to know he is the best player still on the board!

Put it this way you take away russells 11 rings and kobes 5 rings and if both had no rings Kobe still ***** all over russells career accomplishments


lmao! Why would you even take away championships anyway? Because you think that helps you to make your case here? lmao. Remember, Russell has 5 league MVPs, and his rebounding average is almost close to Kobe ppg avg, and he's probably the greatest defender of all time. Nah...taking away rings ain't helping you much either. Stop being so foolish. You don't take away anything. It is what it is. Russell was the man for most of his championships (that time I believe they didn't have finals MVPs, he would have gotten 9/10 finals MVPs as well). Kobe has one league MVP and only 2 finals MVPs. Shaq was the leader of those lakers teams. Russell ****s over Kobe in all the major catagories. So yea, it's not even close to close.

Heediot
07-07-2011, 02:09 PM
Lol have you heard what caron butler and all his ex teammates have said after they left the lakers? He said Kobe made him a better Player! Btw caron was only with the lakers for 1 year and that the year the lakers didn't make the playoffs because Kobe and Lamar were injured a combined half a year

Kobe makes him teammates better professionals. The intangibles, sure I don't disagree like work ethic, effort, desire, etc. . But on the court his style of play is individualistic and does not elevate the team or his teammates. Know the difference.

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 02:11 PM
LeBron played 1 season in Miami so far... didn't they lose in 6 to the team that swept Kobe in 4?

Wasn't it because pau gasol was playing like a little *****, our whole team was fatigued from playing so many games the past 3 years and etc. But hey the only reason why the heat didn't get swept was because of Dwayne wade, Lebron didnt even bother showing up in the 4th quarters!

psperry34116
07-07-2011, 02:14 PM
Vote russell. Nominate jkidd

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 02:15 PM
lmao! Why would you even take away championships anyway? Because you think that helps you to make your case here? lmao. Remember, Russell has 5 league MVPs, and his rebounding average is almost close to Kobe ppg avg, and he's probably the greatest defender of all time. Nah...taking away rings ain't helping you much either. Stop being so foolish. You don't take away anything. It is what it is. Russell was the man for most of his championships (that time I believe they didn't have finals MVPs, he would have gotten 9/10 finals MVPs as well). Kobe has one league MVP and only 2 finals MVPs. Shaq was the leader of those lakers teams. Russell ****s over Kobe in all the major catagories. So yea, it's not even close to close.

Lol 5 mvps in a watered down league lol, Russell would be nothing more then a role player in today's NBA! Hahaha nice try though trying to convince me, it's not gonna work and sure shaq might have been the leader of the 3-peat but Kobe was the one taking over games and guarding the other teams best player, he had just as much to do with those 3 championships as shaq! So yeah it's not even close to close Kobe>russell

naps
07-07-2011, 02:15 PM
^I said numbers, not accolades and awards. And how is Kobe "absolutely the better offensive and defensive player" when Bird scored way more efficiently and killed Kobe in assists and rebounding along with the advanced stats associated with each?

haha...I know. May be he's too young. Bird is one of the greatest offensive players of time. He was better offensive player, better passer, better rebounder. I give Kobe the defensive edge. But it's not really that close. Ask Magic Johnson, the guy who actually competed Bird for his entire career.

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 02:16 PM
Kobe makes him teammates better professionals. The intangibles, sure I don't disagree like work ethic, effort, desire, etc. . But on the court his style of play is individualistic and does not elevate the team or his teammates. Know the difference.

Or maybe it's the triangle offense??

naps
07-07-2011, 02:18 PM
Lol 5 mvps in a watered down league lol, Russell would be nothing more then a role player in today's NBA! Hahaha nice try though trying to convince me, it's not gonna work and sure shaq might have been the leader of the 3-peat but Kobe was the one taking over games and guarding the other teams best player, he had just as much to do with those 3 championships as shaq! So yeah it's not even close to close Kobe>russell

Who is trying to convince you? If you really think you are that important then you have to take a nap. I am pointing out blatant nonsense. I put up facts to backup my opinion whereas you are putting up your same blind opinions in every single posts. A rational debate doesn't require opinions much, it's all about facts. Kobe's offensive numbers are better than Ruseell (but Kobe is also inefficient), besides that I don't see aspects of the game where Kobe tops Russell. And Russell's accolades **** the **** out of Kobe.

Heediot
07-07-2011, 02:19 PM
Lol 5 mvps in a watered down league lol, Russell would be nothing more then a role player in today's NBA! Hahaha nice try though trying to convince me, it's not gonna work and sure shaq might have been the leader of the 3-peat but Kobe was the one taking over games and guarding the other teams best player, he had just as much to do with those 3 championships as shaq! So yeah it's not even close to close Kobe>russell

Fine if Wilt or Russell averages 100 PPG 30 Rebs, Won 15 straight Tiltles, 15 Finals MVP,15 League MVPs, and 15 DOPs, it would mean squadoosh to you to you because they played in the 60's.

What does one have to do in that era to convince you than????

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 02:21 PM
Imagine Kobe made someone better in his career. His coach even has to tell him to pass the rock. Kobe shouldn't be mentioned with great team players like Bird, Magic, Timmy D, Hakeem etc...

Phil jackson said Kobe was uncoachable in 2003 but I'm pretty sure things have changed haven't they?? He has clearly said that Kobe has become a better teammate and become a better team player, I mean look at Ronny turiaf, Trevor Ariza, caron butler, smash Parker, kwame brown? Where are they now? Some aren't in the NBA, the others barely play, or they absoulely suck! Trevor Ariza averages more points but his fg percentage is horrible! Caron butler wouldn't be the player he is today without Kobe Bryant! Who was Shannon brown before he came to the lakers? He was a nobody! Pau gasol wasnt as big as he was today, Kobe actually made him better! Sure he was a good player already but Kobe made him a consistent all-star! Anything else?

naps
07-07-2011, 02:23 PM
LeBron played 1 season in Miami so far... didn't they lose in 6 to the team that swept Kobe in 4?

:laugh: good one.

Heediot
07-07-2011, 02:23 PM
Or maybe it's the triangle offense??

Triangle my butthole. The triangle has nothing to do with how he improved the player, its a system.

WadeKobe
07-07-2011, 02:24 PM
Because he has always been a Laker and he has brought us 5 championships an is arguably the greatest Laker ever! Shaq left on bad terms, trashed our owner, and then to top it all off he said MIAMI>LA! I mean I like shaq compared to other laker fans but you have to be stupid not to rank Kobe as the better lakers and the better overall player as well and once Kobe retired this won't even be a debate!

:facepalm:

Shaq belongs in discussions with guys like Michael, Wilt, and West. Kobe bows before such a throne. lol.

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 02:27 PM
haha...I know. May be he's too young. Bird is one of the greatest offensive players of time. He was better offensive player, better passer, better rebounder. I give Kobe the defensive edge. But it's not really that close. Ask Magic Johnson, the guy who actually competed Bird for his entire career.

He might have been the more efficient scorer but no way was he better offensively, I doubt he could attack the lane like Kobe can, I don't think bird ever had a post game, heck I'd doubt he would be able to make a jump shot over 2-4 defenders and I seriously doubt he had such a good left hand who unlike Kobe doesn't have a hook shot either!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyKgaeAoa-g&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Please be honest with me and tell me if Larry could do half the things Kobe does in this video!

RaidersLakers24
07-07-2011, 02:30 PM
:facepalm:

Shaq belongs in discussions with guys like Michael, Wilt, and West. Kobe bows before such a throne. lol.

Lol look at your username your a joke!

Heediot
07-07-2011, 02:41 PM
He might have been the more efficient scorer but no way was he better offensively, I doubt he could attack the lane like Kobe can, I don't think bird ever had a post game, heck I'd doubt he would be able to make a jump shot over 2-4 defenders and I seriously doubt he had such a good left hand who unlike Kobe doesn't have a hook shot either!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyKgaeAoa-g&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Please be honest with me and tell me if Larry could do half the things Kobe does in this video!

Wow he's more athletic, that doesn't make him a better player. Even if the guy can do a million things, but if he doesn't do it efficiently it doesn't matter. Bird does more than the minimum required to be called a great offensive player. Vince Carter can do so many things that others could only dream of, does that him a great player? Athleticism doesn't equate to better.

What I give Kobe over Bird is his ability to create his own shot.

naps
07-07-2011, 02:41 PM
He might have been the more efficient scorer but no way was he better offensively, I doubt he could attack the lane like Kobe can, I don't think bird ever had a post game, heck I'd doubt he would be able to make a jump shot over 2-4 defenders and I seriously doubt he had such a good left hand who unlike Kobe doesn't have a hook shot either!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyKgaeAoa-g&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Please be honest with me and tell me if Larry could do half the things Kobe does in this video!

Seriously were you old enough to watch Bird play? Don't post highlight links here if you are looking for a rational debate. Bird's offensive game was unreal. I would have put up details but you are not worth for that. But I know for sure Hawkeye will do that at the right time. Stay tuned.

WadeKobe
07-07-2011, 02:41 PM
Lol look at your username your a joke!

Hey, nice comeback. :clap:

Btw, it's "you're a joke!" If you're going to insult me, do it right. Kids today can't understand the difference between "your" and "you're" or "there" and "their." No wonder they think Kobe is #2 or 3, lol.

Khalifa21
07-07-2011, 02:45 PM
Phil jackson said Kobe was uncoachable in 2003 but I'm pretty sure things have changed haven't they?? He has clearly said that Kobe has become a better teammate and become a better team player, I mean look at Ronny turiaf, Trevor Ariza, caron butler, smash Parker, kwame brown? Where are they now? Some aren't in the NBA, the others barely play, or they absoulely suck! Trevor Ariza averages more points but his fg percentage is horrible! Caron butler wouldn't be the player he is today without Kobe Bryant! Who was Shannon brown before he came to the lakers? He was a nobody! Pau gasol wasnt as big as he was today, Kobe actually made him better! Sure he was a good player already but Kobe made him a consistent all-star! Anything else?

The only player you mentioned who isn't in the league anymore is Smush. Turiaf still plays 20 minutes a game for the Knicks and had his best seasons as a Warrior. Trevor Ariza was a product of being a good role player on an extremely talented team. He had his best seasons in LA because he was in the role he should be, athletic, defensive spark off the bench, not because Kobe made him better. Caron Butler? Really? He played one season with Kobe... Caron's best years came when he was able to step out of the ball hogging shadow of Kobe when he went to Washington. Gasol? Again, really? The guy was considered a top 5 big guy in the league before he was gift wrapped for the Lakers. He's an ideal 2nd option and going to LA allowed him to expand his game as Kobe drew more attention than Mike Miller and Damon Stoudamire in Memphis... Kobe didn't make him better through his playmaking ability.


Lol look at your username your a joke!

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=629814

So 61% of PSD's a joke as well right?

Geargo Wallace
07-07-2011, 02:53 PM
Hey, nice comeback. :clap:

Don't worry, his used to be Kobe24>LeBron23. :)

ChiSox219
07-07-2011, 03:05 PM
Hey, nice comeback. :clap:

Btw, it's "you're a joke!" If you're going to insult me, do it right. Kids today can't understand the difference between "your" and "you're" or "there" and "their." No wonder they think Kobe is #2 or 3, lol.

:clap:

That's a quality burn.

D-Will4Prez
07-07-2011, 03:20 PM
Nominate John Stockton and Isiah Thomas

Bill Russell gets my vote here. Also, Shaq > Kobe.

bigA9331
07-07-2011, 03:20 PM
Has to be Russell here

D-Will4Prez
07-07-2011, 03:29 PM
Imagine Kobe made someone better in his career. His coach even has to tell him to pass the rock. Kobe shouldn't be mentioned with great team players like Bird, Magic, Timmy D, Hakeem etc...

:laugh: :facepalm:

Magic didn't even remotely resemble a team player.

Geargo Wallace
07-07-2011, 03:37 PM
:laugh: :facepalm:

Magic didn't even remotely resemble a team player.

wtf iz u sayin?

GSRaider
07-07-2011, 03:57 PM
You can't just go off stats...

I've seen/watched Bill Russell play and he doesn't come close to Shaq... Shaq would dominate Bill...

JordansBulls
07-07-2011, 03:59 PM
Most underrated player of all time - Big O

Disagree. He was probably the most overrated when you got some people putting him in the top 3 all time. The guy won 1 league mvp and won a title as the 2nd best player on his team and you got some having him in the top 5 all time?

JordansBulls
07-07-2011, 04:03 PM
Nominate John Stockton and Isiah Thomas

Bill Russell gets my vote here. Also, Shaq > Kobe.

I'm only taking one player nomination at a time. So who are you nominating, Stockton or Isiah?

THE GIPPER
07-07-2011, 04:15 PM
shaq>kobe. i just dont get all the kobe overratedness. like people say bird had more help than kobe? shaq was better than anyone bird played with.

WadeKobe
07-07-2011, 04:37 PM
Disagree. He was probably the most overrated when you got some people putting him in the top 3 all time. The guy won 1 league mvp and won a title as the 2nd best player on his team and you got some having him in the top 5 all time?

Agreed. Oscar's stats were reflective not of how great he was, but by how inefficiently the game was played at the time.

When O averaged a triple-double, the average game saw 92 field goals made on 215 shots taken, shooting 42.6% (74/162 today). If the game was close, that would mean that O saw about 10 more shots made by his team which could be assists than anyone today, and saw about 40 more live balls to grab for rebounds (including FT).

He never posted an AST% above 38, and was just barely over 30 for his career. Compare that to JKidd, whose career rate is right at 40. For assists, Oscar averaged 9.2 per 36 minutes while his team averaged 36 shots made per 36 minutes, so that's roughly 25%. He also made 9, so he assisted 33% of the baskets made by his teammates. Kidd's team made 28 per 36 minutes in 2011 (the twighlight of his career), of which he averaged 8.9 assists, which is about 32% of total baskets, and 35% of shots made by his teammates.

As for rebounding, adjusting for his 44 minutes played per game that season, Oscar saw about 128 live balls to grab for rebounds, and grabbed roughly 10% of them. That was actually his highest volume season for rebounds, and possibly most efficient rebounding season - and it barely equates to JKidd's career TRB%.

Oscar Robertson is massively overrated.

Kashmir13579
07-07-2011, 04:59 PM
Can somebody PLEASE explain to me why Larry Legend couldn't shoot a 3ball to save his life from 81-84?

Kashmir13579
07-07-2011, 04:59 PM
and Shaq should be off the board by now.

Jewelz0376
07-07-2011, 05:54 PM
shaq>kobe. i just dont get all the kobe overratedness. like people say bird had more help than kobe? shaq was better than anyone bird played with.

Yea Shaq was better than anyone else the Celtics had...but 3-12 Celtics were better...

THE GIPPER
07-07-2011, 06:08 PM
Yea Shaq was better than anyone else the Celtics had...but 3-12 Celtics were better...

that is very true but guys like fisher, horry and fox all new their roles and could shoot it/play defense.

NBAfan4life
07-07-2011, 06:12 PM
Kobe shouldn't be ahead of Shaq or Duncan.

I agree with you about Shaq, but not with Duncan.

Sixerlover
07-07-2011, 06:14 PM
^ If you agree with Shaq, you should agree with Duncan too. Just as dominate stats wise and production wise

Mr Haha
07-07-2011, 06:17 PM
Russel. It's not close.

Nomination: Ewing and Reggie

THE GIPPER
07-07-2011, 06:19 PM
^ If you agree with Shaq, you should agree with Duncan too. Just as dominate stats wise and production wise

Ya but I would put shaq one spot ahead of duncan

tredigs
07-07-2011, 06:53 PM
Looks like Russell is going to take this. I feel it should be between Russell and Kobe. I will save my Bird vs Kobe for #6 but there are very few stats and accolades that Bird surpasses Kobe at today, let alone a few years from now when Kobe retires.

Not having seen Russell play its hard to argue being an 11 time champ, and 5x MVP winner. But in a small league, playing amongst a dynasty and multiple hall off famers, its hard to know just how to value all that. His offensive stats are unimpressive. A rebounding monster for sure. People praise his defense, but he only made all defensive first team once. NBA first team 3 times. I dunno really. Those trophies are hard to argue against though.

You have to put some of those accolades in perspective. Although he was only AllNBA 1st team 3 times, he was 2nd Team in virtually every other year (with the reason being arguably the most dominant regular season offensive force in the games history playing the same position as him during his prime), and still won the league MVP award multiple times despite being on the 2nd team - and multiple times while on 1st team as well. One of these should've gone to Wilt ('61-'62), but he was also robbed of one himself.

As for his defensive praise... it was legit. He is arguably the GOAT defender, as evidenced by the fact that he was the absolute anchor of the greatest dynasty in sports history despite having a mediocre team offense. That is impossible to do unless you are insanely dominant defensively. The All-NBA Defensive teams did not exist until his final season (at the point where he was actually a player/coach, and literally leading his team to NBA championships while they were heavy underdogs versus a Lakers team featuring Wilt and Jerry West).

If All-NBA Defensive 1st teams, All-NBA Defensive Player of the Year, or All-NBA Finals MVP's existed, Bill Russell would have 8+ of each. I'm not sure everyone realizes that. They just flat out named the Finals MVP the Bill Russell award as retribution for not having it during his leadership of that dynasty.

I'll have some more analysis on the guy later, but I had to clear that up real quick.

NBAfan4life
07-07-2011, 07:04 PM
^ If you agree with Shaq, you should agree with Duncan too. Just as dominate stats wise and production wise

I disagree about Shaq and Duncan being just as dominate. Shaq was more dominate and had more longevity. They have the same number of rings. Shaq also has thousands more rebounds and points.

Fact is Shaq has 28596 on .582 shooting.

I still believe Shaq needs to be off the board before Kobe even though Kobe is my alltime favorite player.

TBH Shaq had a 10 year stretch where he could of been MVP. He was so valuable and every team he played worked their game plan around him.

Shaq maybe makes my top 20 all time favorite players, but there is no denying he deserves to be in the top 5 all time greatest players.

Jewelz0376
07-07-2011, 07:26 PM
that is very true but guys like fisher, horry and fox all new their roles and could shoot it/play defense.

yup they def did

daleja424
07-07-2011, 08:23 PM
Id go with Larry Legend here

knightstemplar
07-07-2011, 08:35 PM
his record without a good/great big man hovers 500!

MJs record without Pippen is way below .500
he has 0 winning seasons without Pippen

Geargo Wallace
07-07-2011, 08:39 PM
Can somebody PLEASE explain to me why Larry Legend couldn't shoot a 3ball to save his life from 81-84?

He didn't shoot too many in those years. 3's were relatively new to the game, and he didn't have a 3 point line in college. I would give him props for mastering the art of the 3 after those years. Bill Simmons wrote something about it in his book, but I don't quite remember what his reasoning was.

knightstemplar
07-07-2011, 08:55 PM
shaq>kobe. i just dont get all the kobe overratedness. like people say bird had more help than kobe? shaq was better than anyone bird played with.

Kobe won 2 rings and went to 3 finals without Shaq

THE GIPPER
07-07-2011, 08:57 PM
Kobe won 2 rings and went to 3 finals without Shaq

Cool. How does that make him better?

knightstemplar
07-07-2011, 09:20 PM
Cool. How does that make him better?

no that wasnt my point
my point is that he didnt have as much help his WHOLE career like bird

THE GIPPER
07-07-2011, 09:33 PM
no that wasnt my point
my point is that he didnt have as much help his WHOLE career like bird

But he did have as much or more help. He went from having shaq to having pau, bynum and odom. And for the few years in between when he didnt have help he was whining and demanding to be traded.

knightstemplar
07-07-2011, 09:36 PM
But he did have as much or more help. He went from having shaq to having pau, bynum and odom. And for the few years in between when he didnt have help he was whining and demanding to be traded.

how many HOFs did Kobe have, and how many did Bird have

Shaq and Pau will go to Hall, so thats 2 for Kobe
how much for Bird?

Heediot
07-07-2011, 10:24 PM
how many HOFs did Kobe have, and how many did Bird have

Shaq and Pau will go to Hall, so thats 2 for Kobe
how much for Bird?

There's no guarantee Pau will make if to the HoF. On the other-hand, Duncan won 3 titles with no HoF's (I highly doubt Manu gets in) and 1 title with one HoF (Admiral). Bird had McHale and Parrish, and to a lesser extent Dennis Johnson (How did he get in? I guess the same reasons as Rodman, defense).

tredigs
07-07-2011, 10:33 PM
There's no guarantee Pau will make if to the HoF. On the other-hand, Duncan won 3 titles with no HoF's (I highly doubt Manu gets in) and 1 title with one HoF (Admiral). Bird had McHale and Parrish, and to a lesser extent Dennis Johnson (How did he get in? I guess the same reasons as Rodman, defense).

Could care less about your guys' Kobe/Bird debate right now, but Manu and Pau are absolute locks for the Hall. Their international + NBA success makes it a non-debate for those who actually have votes and are not NBA-centric (which even if it was just this, they both have terrific resumes).

Bruno
07-07-2011, 10:37 PM
^Totally 'digs. The Basketball HOF pays tribute to ball around the world, at at the college level. Not all about the NBA in regards to the HOF. Manu and Pau are locks, IMO. Maybe not first ballots, but within five years of eligibility for sure.

knightstemplar
07-07-2011, 10:48 PM
There's no guarantee Pau will make if to the HoF. On the other-hand, Duncan won 3 titles with no HoF's (I highly doubt Manu gets in) and 1 title with one HoF (Admiral). Bird had McHale and Parrish, and to a lesser extent Dennis Johnson (How did he get in? I guess the same reasons as Rodman, defense).

david robinson was on the 2003 team
manu ginobili is making the hall of fame, so is gasol
so duncan always had a hofer, except in 03 drob was old and manu was young

knightstemplar
07-07-2011, 10:48 PM
Could care less about your guys' Kobe/Bird debate right now, but Manu and Pau are absolute locks for the Hall. Their international + NBA success makes it a non-debate for those who actually have votes and are not NBA-centric (which even if it was just this, they both have terrific resumes).

yep i agree

Chronz
07-07-2011, 11:56 PM
It is my understanding that he poured it on quite frequently.
Hardly, compared to Shaq he was easier to hold down. Its part of the reason why he lost so many series despite having the better team (the other being his own physical fragility), even during his statistical prime when he was winning back2back2back MVP's his post-season performances were beneath him.
In fact he never won a series without HCA (more importantly his play in those series was often subpar), in 31 Finals games, he shot BELOW 40% as often as he shot over 50% (11 games each), his career Finals FG% of .455 belies just how inconsistent he truly was at that stage.


Birds Playoff Blunders include:

1980 vs Sixers: Celtics finished with the highest SRS and held HCA. Largest margin of defeat was 12PTS, Bird shot 5/19 in the elimination game.

1982 Playoffs: Again lost to the Sixers in what will forever be known as the birth of the BEAT LA chant, it was the only solace Celtic fans could find after once again falling to Philly despite the higher SRS/HCA, Bird lost a close series with him playing horribly inefficient all playoffs.
G.7 Footage:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl52TXOFGqc


1983 vs Bucks: Eliminated by an inferior team with Bird posting inefficient offensive #'s for his playoff run. Bird played one game with the flu and was playing hurt, you can use that as a valid excuse for his play but not his makeup as a player. When a player has proven to be an injury risk throughout his career, then those risks should be weighed as part of the players worth, particularly when they dont stay healthy for the playoffs.


1988 ECF vs Pistons: Shoots 35% from the field this series after one of his greatest regular seasons to that point.




Even his title runs arent all that impressive, he averaged only 15PPG on .419% in the 81 Finals

In G.7 of the 1984 Finals, Bird throws up a 6-18 stinker in which the Celtics have their greatest spurt with him on the bench.
Not to mention that if the Lakers GIFTED him that series (it was the Tragic Johnson series), it was an odd series in which the Lakers dominated but played HORRENDOUSLY down the stretch, by all accounts it should have been a sweep (even Bird admitted as much). But you cant take back mistakes, Im not trying to take Birds title away, just saying he was very fortunate.




And my problem with Shaq was that it hurt his teams at the end of games. Shaq was often a non-factor at the end of close games becuase he was a liability at the line, whereas with Bird it was a forgone conclusion that he was getting the ball and making the play.
Heres the problem I have with your complaint. Your vaguely nitpicking about Shaqs performances at the end of games, Im specifically complaining about Birds play THROUGHOUT ENTIRE SERIES.



Yeah, Bird had a few big playoff series where he shot his team right out of the game. Thats why I don't have him ranked any higher.

A few? Compared to Shaq it was a trend. In Bird's 4 best statistical regular seasons ('85, '86 '87, and '88 aka his PRIME) he played MUCH worse in the post-season.



Bird didn't have to age to be a terrible one on one defender. He got eaten alive by inferior players with superior athleticism. However, he did have bigs that could check small forwards and he did play elite team defense, so it's kind of a moot point.
Moot point? Im sorry but I dont see why your giving Bird credit for having players who could cover his weaknesses. So Bird is only as great as he was if he has the perfect set of teammates, whereas Shaq is dominant regardless of his, I think thats an important quality. Besides McHale wasnt always capable of checking 3's, after he broke his foot those days were all but over, not surprisingly they coincided with the end of Bostons defensive dominance as well.


It also proves my point because despite his many flaws Bird was a much more reliable and versatile defender than Shaq. Shaq had a huge body that took up lots of space, and thats great for the NBA, but he couldn't defend anyone more than two feet from the basket.
Luckily for Shaq this isnt a discussion where their defensive worth as NCAA/FIBA players comes into play. I disagree with your assessment of Shaqs defense, he underachieved on that end and he became a PnR liability later in his career but (something that shouldnt matter in a comparison vs Bird) throughout his peak he was a very good defender, possessing strength that made him impossible to post up, mobility that allowed him to recover.


How often did you ever see Shaq chase a ball? How often did you ever see him really lay himself out for a block?

Not as often as Bird but for a guy his size, alot actually. I recall a few instances where the big guy chased the ball and riled up the troops. How often was Bird considered a top2 defender in the game? Bird wasnt the liability Magic was because he could actually defend other positions and provide superb help in the post. Possibly the player with the greatest hand-eye coordination of all time. Its just hard for me to have him above a far more imposing/intimidating presence who could defend his own position.


Larry Bird's peak stretch numbers per 36 minutes...

25.8ppg, 8.9rpg, 6.2apg, 1.6st, .8blk, 2.2a/to, all up in the 50/40/90 club.

I'm not as good with the stats interpretation as you are, Chronz, but I find nothing to dislike about Bird's peak numbers. They stack up against pretty much anybody.

Yes his #'s are epic, even if he did feast on the defensively challenged SF of his era, but you add in the fact that during that peak stretch you mentioned, he managed lose most of his efficiency come playoff time doesnt help him in this argument.


Shaq is easily the best PEAK player left, the fact that he also had a longer career makes this a no brainer. I mean Bird entered the game at 23 and suffered his career altering injury at 31, so basically his BEST years dont even amount to Shaqs Laker career.

Chronz
07-08-2011, 12:06 AM
He didn't shoot too many in those years. 3's were relatively new to the game, and he didn't have a 3 point line in college. I would give him props for mastering the art of the 3 after those years. Bill Simmons wrote something about it in his book, but I don't quite remember what his reasoning was.

How about explaining why his 3pt shot deserted him in the playoffs? Any idea what BS excuse, BS came up with on that one?

Geargo Wallace
07-08-2011, 07:14 AM
How about explaining why his 3pt shot deserted him in the playoffs? Any idea what BS excuse, BS came up with on that one?

don't quite remember. My book is at my other home.

Raidaz4Life
07-08-2011, 08:14 AM
I say Bird

LongIslandIcedZ
07-08-2011, 10:20 AM
Can someone explain to me why Kobe is better than Shaq. I always though Shaq was the better player and I'm a little surprised he's this far behind, I'd appreciate a little clarification.

THE GIPPER
07-08-2011, 10:32 AM
Can someone explain to me why Kobe is better than Shaq. I always though Shaq was the better player and I'm a little surprised he's this far behind, I'd appreciate a little clarification.

I cant do that for you and I dont think anyone else can either because shaq was clearly better. But be ready for a large number of kobe fans to come in with the old "kobe has 5 rings!!!" argument.

Raoul Duke
07-08-2011, 01:31 PM
Hey Chronz, my net is **** right now so it'll take me a bit to post a proper response. I might not be able to post it until the next thread goes up, but it's a-comin'.

Chronz
07-08-2011, 02:42 PM
Hey Chronz, my net is **** right now so it'll take me a bit to post a proper response. I might not be able to post it until the next thread goes up, but it's a-comin'.

Thank god bro, this new kid cant present a coherent argument if his life depended on it. It would be a damn shame if his was the only rebuttal I had to work with.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-08-2011, 03:40 PM
Thank god bro, this new kid cant present a coherent argument if his life depended on it. It would be a damn shame if his was the only rebuttal I had to work with.

LOL. You've been shutting down people in these G.O.A.T threads so far.

MTar786
07-08-2011, 10:35 PM
Just my opinion. Shaq is wayy better than bird was.
just my opinion. Shaq had the POTENTIAL to be the GOAT
just my opinion. Shaqs PEAK although very short (00-02) was second to none including mj


people tend to just say larry bird is top 5 all time because they heard his name. put larry at number 9 or 10 for me maybe.

i see kobe, shaq, oscar, and possibly dream all ahead of him. tim duncan and larry could be considered equals in my eyes.

It'sMyTime
07-08-2011, 10:55 PM
Nominate Stockton

MTar786
07-08-2011, 11:04 PM
I cant do that for you and I dont think anyone else can either because shaq was clearly better. But be ready for a large number of kobe fans to come in with the old "kobe has 5 rings!!!" argument.

il do it for you

shaqs peak was better than kobes. imo shaqs prime was the best prime in the history of the league. But kobe had a better career and was great for a longer period of time.

shaqs prime>kobes prime
kobes career>shaqs career

it depends what you're looking for i guess

MTar786
07-08-2011, 11:18 PM
legen3303.. what is wrong with you?

you said shaq barely beat the kings twice?

the only series the kings gave us trouble in was the 02 wcf
we swept the kings in 01 and beat them in the first round in 00

shaq had no competition in the 90's? thats why he went to the finals and that was when he was in his 3rd year in the league. AT a time when the league had ewing, mutombo, hakeem, and david robinson ALL in their primes. not to mentions mourning, vlade, sabonis.

if shaq was what you say he was then why did the league fear shaq from 00-03? why did everyone wish to play with him? why was he in the finals 4 out of 5 years?
why did he 3peat? dont tell me his competition.
the spurs were in their prime at the time. the kings were INSANELY good. dallas was winning 50+ every season with nash, finley and dirk..
portland had
pippen
smith
sabonis
wallace
wells
mighty mouse
davis
jermaine oneal
randolph
brian grant
THAT IS CRAZY. even though oneal and randolph didnt get PT

kings had
divac
webber
peja
bibby
hedo
christie
jackson

knightstemplar
07-09-2011, 12:14 AM
#6 is gonna be interesting

Law25
07-09-2011, 12:59 AM
I say Kobe at 5th. He was an better all around player than everyone on this list. Russel was and is know for his defense and only that. Bird was and is know for his offense and is an known bad defender. Kobe is and was known for both. He gets pushed aside because he's not likable and because he played with Shaq. Russell had an stacked team and played with an alltime great in Cusey (who dosent get his just due). Bird was apart of an big three for an reason Parish and McHale were pretty amazing for celtics. My number one reason is because Kobe is and was more exciting. Highlight dunks, clutch shots, crazy shot making ability,shut down defense, and his career has an better storyline. An unbias person would have to agree Kobe is top five.

airforceones25
07-09-2011, 01:32 AM
Elgin Baylor is better than half these players. So much disrespect

cmellofan15
07-09-2011, 02:22 AM
LeBron.