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JordansBulls
07-06-2011, 01:05 AM
Voting for #3 has concluded and PSD's Official #3 NBA Player of all time is....

Wilt Chamberlain

30.1 PPG | 22.9 RPG | 4.4 AST | .540% FG |

Achievements
4 Time MVP
13 Time All-Star
1 Time Finals MVP
'60 Rookie Of The Year
'60 All Star Game MVP
8 time All-NBA First Teamer
2 time All-NBA Second Teamer
2 time All-Devensive First Teamer
Led the league in scoring 7 times
Led the league in rebounding 11 times
All Time rebound leader
Led the league in assists once
Led the league in PER 8 times

Wilt Chamberlain = 101 votes
Magic Johnson = 100 votes
Bill Russell = 30 votes
Kobe Bryant = 24 votes
Shaquille O'Neal = 12 votes
Larry Bird = 10 votes
Oscar Robertson = 5 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 3 votes
Tim Duncan = 3 votes
Jerry West = 1 vote



The List:
1. Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631585)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632046)




NOTE:

Need you guys to start nominating so that we can do a top 25 or even top 50.

Requirement for nomination is: Player had to be an allstar at least 3+ times as a minimum or have won League MVP or an allstar 2+ times with finals MVP.
Doing it this way gets rid of posters who would put guys like Cedric Maxwell who although he has a finals mvp never was an allstar.

NYKalltheway
07-06-2011, 01:09 AM
dayuuuum 1 vote :p Why the f- did people vote for Kobe and not Magic :laugh2:

CHANGO
07-06-2011, 01:10 AM
Magic... He should be the 3rd.

210Don
07-06-2011, 01:11 AM
timmy

Ebbs
07-06-2011, 01:22 AM
Have to go Larry Legend here. I know alot of people like Magic better but I think Bird was the better player. I also think people might be mad I went Bird over Russell but what can you do.

WadeKobe
07-06-2011, 01:22 AM
Jerry West, and it's not even close. PSD lacks so much perspective. LOGO is #2 of all time, and I will vote for him until somehow PSD finds a place for him amongst his inferiors.

WadeKobe
07-06-2011, 01:23 AM
Have to go Larry Legend here. I know alot of people like Magic better but I think Bird was the better player. I also think people might be mad I went Bird over Russell but what can you do.

Magic said Bird was the GOAT. So you're in good company.

NYKalltheway
07-06-2011, 01:26 AM
I do prefer Bird as a player to Magic as well, but we're talking about success and other stuff here. If it was according to who was the better player, I'd take Nique over both of them even if his defending wasn't up to standards. Nique was definitely the guy who almost beat the Celtics on his own in a 7 game series, don't think many players single handedly did anything as close on a non-winning team ;) But since the NBA is all about winning and winning in style, Magic>Bird/Russell imo

Lloyd Christmas
07-06-2011, 01:28 AM
This was the toughest vote so far. I took Magic over Bird.

Bruno
07-06-2011, 01:29 AM
Magic.

Ebbs
07-06-2011, 01:30 AM
lol if winning is the most important thing to you how do you not take Russell here?

Ebbs
07-06-2011, 01:30 AM
Magic said Bird was the GOAT. So you're in good company.

I never heard about that do you have any kind of link to it?

NYKalltheway
07-06-2011, 01:32 AM
lol if winning is the most important thing to you how do you not take Russell here?

i rate the 80s much higher than 60s plus Celtics back then were a super team. Same for both Celtics & Lakers in 80s (hence why I like Nique more than both, I always go for the underdog :cool: )

MJ-BULLS
07-06-2011, 01:49 AM
The Magic man.

ink
07-06-2011, 01:57 AM
Magic. I would have even taken him at #2 because of his effect on his teammates. To me he's the alter-ego of MJ, brilliant, capable, talented, able to lead, but always facilitating at the same time. More us than me, which is where Jordan excelled. Better team ball is Magic's legacy.

bulls_world23
07-06-2011, 02:01 AM
Magic!!

Chronz
07-06-2011, 02:02 AM
James Worthy called Shaq the greatest Laker ever, and he wasnt even there long. Im taking Shaq but wont argue against Magic here.

GREATNESS ONE
07-06-2011, 02:20 AM
Magic Man.

John Walls Era
07-06-2011, 02:33 AM
Im picking Magic. He makes his teammates better.


Actually you are, and your doing a bad job at that. Wilt won 2 titles in an era when the greatest dynasty (relative to their league) of all time played. Of course he didnt win many titles, one team was basically monopolizing the titles with talent that would never leave, and a GM that could find phenoms to replenish the ranks. Besides there werent always 8 teams in the league.

Name to me these players Magic made better, Im not saying your wrong I would just like to see you back your opinion.

Ok I will back my opinion (I'm not going to show every year because that would be too much, also most of the Lakers remained intact during his tenure so I wasn't able to use as many players as I wanted to use). Here goes:

When he entered the league:
First lets talk about the 2nd G.O.A.T.
Kareem's ORTG, which was already high at the time when even higher. From 113 and 115 (2 years before Magic came in) to a bunch of 118 seasons and some 120 seasons. Had some seasons where it was around 116 too. That is a small improvement and rarely anything to take note of. BUT Kareem was past his prime. The 120 ORTG season was when he was 37 years old! Small evidence of what playing with a guy like Magic could do.

Someone else who played with Magic a lot - Jamaal Wilkes.
The previous season before Magic entered the league he had: 20 PPG, 104 ORTG and shot about 50% (I dont use TS because I feel it benefits good FT shooters to a certain extent). After Magic joined in 79 his PPG and especially his ORTG went through the roof (115 ORTG and continued in the 100 and teens until it dipped in his 30s -- didn't start).

After Magic Retired in 91:
The Lakers were just avg after Magic retired. Most of the players stats dropped after Magic retired. 3 notable players that played heavily with Magic before he retired: James Worthy, Byron Scott.

James Worthy - ORTG of 104, WS of 3.1 and had a FG% of less than 50% for the FIRST time. Coincidence? Maybe, but his previous low was 54%. And the season before Magic retired his ORTG was 113.

Byron Scott - He began to age when Magic retired, and I understand that. But his numbers dipped heavily when Magic began to age as well: He dropped from a 21.7 scorer to a 14.5 PPG guy. With his ORTG dipping by about 10.

Magic won the most championships out of any player during his playing career (Bird coming in 2nd, Pistons in 3rd). Also improved his teammates and his team.

Chacarron
07-06-2011, 02:57 AM
Magic Johnson.

naps
07-06-2011, 03:07 AM
It could either be Russell or Magic on my book. I went with Magic anyway.
So my next pick is Russell. If Russell is out of top 5, I'll lose my respect to this list. He deserves to be in top 5 with that resume. He's the greatest winner in nba history.

I nominate next to be added on the poll: Elgin Baylor. The man is very very underrated.

gmckenziejr82
07-06-2011, 07:22 AM
James Worthy called Shaq the greatest Laker ever, and he wasnt even there long. Im taking Shaq but wont argue against Magic here.

I'm going with magic here. Some players may have similar or better stats but I believe magic definitely helped make his teammates better. Also, had shaq devoted more time to staying in shape he would have been more dominant than he already was. His accomplishments and stats are beastly. I remember wondering why shaq didn't win more mvp's during their run. I can still see mutumbo's face as shaq's elbow smashed him in the nose during the 01 finals. I will be picking bird next and nominate Isiah Thomas

Heediot
07-06-2011, 07:34 AM
Tim Duncan

Tough call but it was between Russell and Duncan. I am biased toward big men. I will probably vote Shaq and Hakeem before I vote for Magic and Bird. But it looks like Magic will win anyhow.

X12Celtics3
07-06-2011, 08:10 AM
Russell... again.

DR_1
07-06-2011, 08:28 AM
Magic, followed closely by Shaq.

gmckenziejr82
07-06-2011, 08:33 AM
Scratch the Isiah Thomas nomination and change that to Elgin Baylor

DR_1
07-06-2011, 08:33 AM
I nominate Dirk Nowitzki for the next poll; was gonna ask later, but I don't want to forget lol .

knightstemplar
07-06-2011, 08:37 AM
James Worthy called Shaq the greatest Laker ever, and he wasnt even there long. Im taking Shaq but wont argue against Magic here.

No
James Worthy called Shaq the Greatest Laker of the Decade (2000-2009)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYmxBa9JLXY

knightstemplar
07-06-2011, 08:44 AM
its gonna be interesting how kobe, shaq, and duncan are gonna be ranked

Swashcuff
07-06-2011, 08:58 AM
I'm going Magic here.

NYKalltheway
07-06-2011, 09:06 AM
its gonna be interesting how kobe, shaq, and duncan are gonna be ranked

Kobe will not get top 10, Duncan #10, Shaq #6-8

stejay
07-06-2011, 09:26 AM
I'm going Russell.

knightstemplar
07-06-2011, 09:40 AM
Kobe will not get top 10, Duncan #10, Shaq #6-8

all 3 are top 10

SpeeMN
07-06-2011, 10:37 AM
Magic would have been 3rd if the youngsters didn't vote for Kobe! Kobe isn't better than Russel, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Duncan and Shaq.

Geargo Wallace
07-06-2011, 10:39 AM
I went with Bird. I feel that he was a better player than Magic. Shorter prime, but a much more dominant one. From 84-86 Bird was unstoppable. He was better than Magic til around 87 IMO. Incredibly productive and clutch. I have a hard-on for Bird though so don't bother arguing with me. I just love that hardworking, blue collar style of play, matched with his lack of athleticism. The Great White Hope has me in a daze... I love the Magic man too though.

THE GIPPER
07-06-2011, 11:22 AM
Kobe will not get top 10, Duncan #10, Shaq #6-8

Kobe doesnt deserve top 10 but he'll probably get it because of the homerism on this forum

Swashcuff
07-06-2011, 11:29 AM
Kobe doesnt deserve top 10 but he'll probably get it because of the homerism on this forum

Why?

Sadds The Gr8
07-06-2011, 11:51 AM
this should just be closed...obvious blowout

Da Knicks
07-06-2011, 11:57 AM
Kobe doesnt deserve top 10 but he'll probably get it because of the homerism on this forum

Yeah too many youngsters on psd will rank him alot higher than what he should be. Imo he sits in the 12-15 range...

Chronz
07-06-2011, 12:00 PM
Tim Duncan

Tough call but it was between Russell and Duncan. I am biased toward big men. I will probably vote Shaq and Hakeem before I vote for Magic and Bird. But it looks like Magic will win anyhow.
Duncan is a good vote, hopefully people share your opinion and vote the bigs before the Legend.


I'm going with magic here. Some players may have similar or better stats but I believe magic definitely helped make his teammates better. Also, had shaq devoted more time to staying in shape he would have been more dominant than he already was. His accomplishments and stats are beastly. I remember wondering why shaq didn't win more mvp's during their run. I can still see mutumbo's face as shaq's elbow smashed him in the nose during the 01 finals. I will be picking bird next and nominate Isiah Thomas
Do you know WHO he made better? Its a fine choice Im just a sucker for things like details.

Also, who cares about how long Shaq dominated when his comparison is Magic, he crushes Magics longevity. He didnt win more MVP's because the league held him to ridiculous standards, simply being the best player with the best case wasnt good enough.



No
James Worthy called Shaq the Greatest Laker of the Decade (2000-2009)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYmxBa9JLXY
It was a joke but Ill change that argument to, if Shaq was so dominant in 4-5 years there he was voted ahead of Kobe despite an entire decade worth of games, then he mustve been good enough to qualify here.

NYMetros
07-06-2011, 12:01 PM
I'll keep voting Russell until he gets on here. The greatest winner in sports history deserves more respect than this.

todu82
07-06-2011, 12:38 PM
Magic Johnson

knightstemplar
07-06-2011, 12:40 PM
Kobe doesnt deserve top 10 but he'll probably get it because of the homerism on this forum

give me 10 players that are better than kobe

Raoul Duke
07-06-2011, 12:49 PM
I went with Bird. I feel that he was a better player than Magic. Shorter prime, but a much more dominant one. From 84-86 Bird was unstoppable. He was better than Magic til around 87 IMO. Incredibly productive and clutch. I have a hard-on for Bird though so don't bother arguing with me. I just love that hardworking, blue collar style of play, matched with his lack of athleticism. The Great White Hope has me in a daze... I love the Magic man too though.

I was torn, but I went with Magic.

In my opinion, Bird's peak season numbers straight kill just about anybody's (EDIT: I meant anyone left on the list). He just didn't have any offensive weaknesses, and his defense was so underrated. He's 25th all-time in DWS, led the league in that category in four seasons, and ranks 84th all time in defensive rating.

Geargo Wallace
07-06-2011, 01:03 PM
I was torn, but I went with Magic.

In my opinion, Bird's peak season numbers straight kill just about anybody's (EDIT: I meant anyone left on the list). He just didn't have any offensive weaknesses, and his defense was so underrated. He's 25th all-time in DWS, led the league in that category in four seasons, and ranks 84th all time in defensive rating.

I'm sure if Bird's body could have held up and/or Len Bias didn't pass away, Bird would have had a few more titles under his belt. But I'm sure if Magic didn't bang so many dusties he'd have had a chance at another title or two.

Hawkeye15
07-06-2011, 01:04 PM
Magic. His individual advanced numbers don't reflect the way he raised the level of play of his teammates.

Raoul Duke
07-06-2011, 01:15 PM
I'm sure if Bird's body could have held up and/or Len Bias didn't pass away, Bird would have had a few more titles under his belt. But I'm sure if Magic didn't bang so many dusties he'd have had a chance at another title or two.

True dat to the bolded part.

The most interesting thing to me about the comparison is how much each guy meant to the other's legacy.

Geargo Wallace
07-06-2011, 01:22 PM
True dat to the bolded part.

The most interesting thing to me about the comparison is how much each guy meant to the other's legacy.

The most interesting thing to me is how Kobe has more votes than Bird. Kobe has ppl hypnotized or something.

Hawkeye15
07-06-2011, 01:29 PM
shoot, I still have 4 players on this board ahead of Kobe for sure

Ironman5219
07-06-2011, 01:38 PM
Yo Jordanbulls, you place Moses Malone on here but where is Karl Malone? He should at least be on the list!!!!

John Walls Era
07-06-2011, 01:43 PM
Magic made his teammates so much better. Not even a debate here.

Lakersfan2483
07-06-2011, 01:44 PM
Magic Johnson. He should have been no. 3 though.

JordansBulls
07-06-2011, 01:46 PM
Yo Jordanbulls, you place Moses Malone on here but where is Karl Malone? He should at least be on the list!!!!

Moses Malone was nominated during poll #1 or #2. People have stopped nominating players. If you nominate players that have legit cases they are added in the next poll. Reason I mention nomination is in case we want to go past the top 10 and do something like the top 25 or even top 50 all time.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-06-2011, 01:52 PM
Russell. I nominate Elgin Baylor.

GoPacers33
07-06-2011, 01:56 PM
Bill Russel. Should of been 2

NYKalltheway
07-06-2011, 01:57 PM
Moses Malone was nominated during poll #1 or #2. People have stopped nominating players. If you nominate players that have legit cases they are added in the next poll. Reason I mention nomination is in case we want to go past the top 10 and do something like the top 25 or even top 50 all time.

we should go till 25 at least... lockout won't end before that :whistle:

Heediot
07-06-2011, 03:38 PM
we should go till 25 at least... lockout won't end before that :whistle:

even top 100 will last longer than the lockout

WadeKobe
07-06-2011, 03:43 PM
give me 10 players that are better than kobe

Jordan
West
Wilt
Shaq
Kareem
Magic
Hakeem
Duncan
Bird
Russell

Jetsguy
07-06-2011, 04:05 PM
I voted for Shaq but am fine with and understand Magic here

Bruno
07-06-2011, 04:36 PM
Kobe will not get top 10, Duncan #10, Shaq #6-8

Yes he will. You've bashed the idea of his name even being an option from the start of this thread series. He is a top ten player and you'll see that the vast majority of the fans agree (as do most analysts, coaches, and other players).

JordansBulls
07-06-2011, 04:37 PM
Need you guys to start nominating so that we can do a top 25 or even top 50.

Requirement for nomination is: Player had to be an allstar at least 3+ times as a minimum or have won League MVP or an allstar 2+ times with finals MVP.
Doing it this way gets rid of posters who would put guys like Cedric Maxwell who although he has a finals mvp never was an allstar.

Bruno
07-06-2011, 04:39 PM
I nominate Karl Malone.

Heediot
07-06-2011, 04:42 PM
Yes he will. You've bashed the idea of his name even being an option from the start of this thread series. He is a top ten player and you'll see that the vast majority of the fans agree (as do most analysts, coaches, and other players).

Yeah at worse he's a borderline top 10 player. The Individual accomplishments and stats speak for themselves. Me personally I think there are at least 25 guys all time I would take to start a team before I would take Kobe. However, I would still put him in my top ten or close to it. He's not the most efficient but he's damn clutch. LeBron is more efficient but disappears in the big moments. Big moments have to count for something. But I do agree with some of the counter arguments of Kobe being on some stacked teams. Still his results have to stand up and this is coming from one of the biggest Kobe HATERS on PSD, I just don't go out of my way to vilify or degrade the man. My O.O2$

Lloyd Christmas
07-06-2011, 04:45 PM
I nominate Rick Barry.

naps
07-06-2011, 04:56 PM
Could go with either Russell or Magic. I went with Magic here anyway.
So my #5 is Russell. If he's out of top 5 then it's a blasphemy. He's probably the greatest winner in pro-sports history.

JordansBulls
07-06-2011, 04:59 PM
Probably going to start the next one in a few hours as it looks like Magic has this wrapped up. Just waiting for a few more nominations.

Hustlenomics
07-06-2011, 05:00 PM
I nominate Allen Iverson,Dirk, and Pippen

Heediot
07-06-2011, 05:01 PM
Probably going to start the next one in a few hours as it looks like Magic has this wrapped up. Just waiting for a few more nominations.

Karl Malone for sure. Way too early for AI.

Raoul Duke
07-06-2011, 05:03 PM
I nominate John Stockton. He has a case for being the greatest PG of all time if you're a fan of sustained excellence.

Bruno
07-06-2011, 05:06 PM
Yeah at worse he's a borderline top 10 player. The Individual accomplishments and stats speak for themselves. Me personally I think there are at least 25 guys all time I would take to start a team before I would take Kobe. However, I would still put him in my top ten or close to it just because the results speak for themselves and you cannot take that away from someone. He's not the most efficient but he's damn clutch. LeBron is more efficient but disappears in the big moments. Big moments have to count for something. But I do agree with some of the counter arguments of Kobe being on some stacked teams. Still his results have to stand up. My O.O2$

I'm not going to make an argument for him here at the #4 spot, I'm just saying that he's gona get top ten and that nobody should get their hopes up on him possibly not making the cut this time.

His efficiency isn't far off from some of the other greatest of all time either. Bryants career TS% of .556 isn't far behind Jordans (.569), Birds (.564), Robertson (.564), Dr. J's (.558) and it is higher than Russells (.471), Wilts (.547), Mikans (.483), Wests (.550), and Hakeem Olajuwons (.553).

If somebody wants to explain to me why TS% shouldn't be used as the main measuring stick of a players scoring efficiency, I'd like to hear why.

That's another reason why I'm a sucker for Magic here. Career TS% of .61. He was the greatest high octane offense facilitator ever, but when he wanted to score, he did so on fantastic efficiency.

It is has been league consensus for years that Magics Lakers were greater than the sum of their parts, and that Magic Johnson was more responsible for that than any other player. As the ultimate team player, he gets a lot of credit for making his teammates better. This is the historical consensus; if anyone has a problem with that claim the burden of proof is on them to present why it's not true, not the other way around

JordansBulls
07-06-2011, 05:08 PM
I nominate Allen Iverson,Dirk, and Pippen

Only one player at a time. Only one player is selected in each thread so he needs to be replaced.

tcav701
07-06-2011, 05:27 PM
I nominate Ewing, KG, Payton, Stockton, Malone, David Robinson, Kidd, Dirk, Drexler, Dominique, Barkley, Parish, Barkley, Unseld, Reggie Miller, Pippen, Isiah, Lambeer, Gervin, Baylor, Pettit, Kidd, Dirk, Fraizer, Macadoo, LeBron, Maravich, Havlichek.....

That should be a good feild after 10 lol

Heediot
07-06-2011, 05:42 PM
I'm not going to make an argument for him here at the #4 spot, I'm just saying that he's gona get top ten and that nobody should get their hopes up on him possibly not making the cut this time.

His efficiency isn't far off from some of the other greatest of all time either. Bryants career TS% of .556 isn't far behind Jordans (.569), Birds (.564), Robertson (.564), Dr. J's (.558) and it is higher than Russells (.471), Wilts (.547), Mikans (.483), Wests (.550), and Hakeem Olajuwons (.553).

If somebody wants to explain to me why TS% shouldn't be used as the main measuring stick of a players scoring efficiency, I'd like to hear why.

That's another reason why I'm a sucker for Magic here. Career TS% of .61. He was the greatest high octane offense facilitator ever, but when he wanted to score, he did so on fantastic efficiency.

It is has been league consensus for years that Magics Lakers were greater than the sum of their parts, and that Magic Johnson was more responsible for that than any other player. As the ultimate team player, he gets a lot of credit for making his teammates better. This is the historical consensus; if anyone has a problem with that claim the burden of proof is on them to present why it's not true, not the other way around

This takes away from Shaq, and Wilt. For every FG Attemp Wilt makes he shoots a FT (basically). His FG/FT attempt ratio is 1.069 and Shaq is 1.723. I guess its strategic to foul guys like Shaq and Wilt since they are piss poor FT shooters. TS% is slightly overrated in that one FT counts the same as one FG. Wherein FG is contested, and FT uncontested and coordinated/repetitive (same spot) shot. I give Kobe props because he got to the live at a higher rate than Jordan, Hakeem, Kareem when calculating FGA/FTA. However, back in the 80's and early 90's the rules were alot different. Nowadays the NBA is like marine land all you see is flopping.

Master Mind
07-06-2011, 05:44 PM
Is Magic's son named Voodoo Johnson?

:sigh: I'm bored

Master Mind
07-06-2011, 05:45 PM
Anyways Magic could have went anywhere between 2 and 4

gmckenziejr82
07-06-2011, 05:46 PM
Duncan is a good vote, hopefully people share your opinion and vote the bigs before the Legend.


Do you know WHO he made better? Its a fine choice Im just a sucker for things like details.

Also, who cares about how long Shaq dominated when his comparison is Magic, he crushes Magics longevity. He didnt win more MVP's because the league held him to ridiculous standards, simply being the best player with the best case wasnt good enough.



It was a joke but Ill change that argument to, if Shaq was so dominant in 4-5 years there he was voted ahead of Kobe despite an entire decade worth of games, then he mustve been good enough to qualify here.

I wasn't comparing Magic and Shaq by longevity, that would be unfair because we all know why Magic's career was cut short. I was giving him some constructive criticism on how he could have gotten more out of his career than he did had he kept himself in better shape. The Lakers decision to keep Kobe was made even easier due to the fact of Shaq's injuries and poor physical conditioning. Just a quick example, although shaq played 5 more seasons than Wilt, Wilt only played 162 less regular season games than shaq. Kareem played one less season than Shaq and still played 300 more games than shaq. But I'm not taking anything away from Shaq because he still had a beast career. Just saying he could have gotten more out of it which amazing. Also I was speaking in terms of magic's leadership that made his teammates better, he was anchoring the lake show for a decade. Guy stepped in a finals game 6 his rookie season and put up 42 points, 15 boards, 7 assists and 3 steals, if that doesnt earn you respect from your teammates I don't know what does. You ask who he made better, lets just say everyone on his team.

John Walls Era
07-06-2011, 05:49 PM
Do you know WHO he made better? Its a fine choice Im just a sucker for things like details.


I already replied to this (QUOTE-ING MYSELF):

Ok I will back my opinion (I'm not going to show every year because that would be too much, also most of the Lakers remained intact during his tenure so I wasn't able to use as many players as I wanted to use). Here goes:

When he entered the league:
First lets talk about the 2nd G.O.A.T.
Kareem's ORTG, which was already high at the time when even higher. From 113 and 115 (2 years before Magic came in) to a bunch of 118 seasons and some 120 seasons. Had some seasons where it was around 116 too. That is a small improvement and rarely anything to take note of. BUT Kareem was past his prime. The 120 ORTG season was when he was 37 years old! Small evidence of what playing with a guy like Magic could do.

Someone else who played with Magic a lot - Jamaal Wilkes.
The previous season before Magic entered the league he had: 20 PPG, 104 ORTG and shot about 50% (I dont use TS because I feel it benefits good FT shooters to a certain extent). After Magic joined in 79 his PPG and especially his ORTG went through the roof (115 ORTG and continued in the 100 and teens until it dipped in his 30s -- didn't start).

After Magic Retired in 91:
The Lakers were just avg after Magic retired. Most of the players stats dropped after Magic retired. 3 notable players that played heavily with Magic before he retired: James Worthy, Byron Scott.

James Worthy - ORTG of 104, WS of 3.1 and had a FG% of less than 50% for the FIRST time. Coincidence? Maybe, but his previous low was 54%. And the season before Magic retired his ORTG was 113.

Byron Scott - He began to age when Magic retired, and I understand that. But his numbers dipped heavily when Magic began to age as well: He dropped from a 21.7 scorer to a 14.5 PPG guy. With his ORTG dipping by about 10.

Magic won the most championships out of any player during his playing career (Bird coming in 2nd, Pistons in 3rd). Also improved his teammates and his team.

tredigs
07-06-2011, 05:51 PM
Magic absolutely decimating Bill Russel here? Interesting. I did go with Magic, but Bill has a fantastic case for #2 in many regards, surprised to see him get blown out this badly at #4.

I'll have to help make his argument in the next round.

Due time somebody nominates Lebron. That will be me - his peak (past 3 years and rolling) rivals the GOATS, as well as 3 Top-5 in the NBA years before that. Longevity and two sub-standard Finals performances to this point have him rightfully outside of those listed, but he's right there - and on a pure talent level hangs with the GOATS as well. People love to hate him, but his dominance (both personal and team well into the playoffs) with mediocre at best squads in Cleveland is something that only a very, very small handful of players in NBA history could've pulled off for a half decade consecutively.

PrettyBoyJ
07-06-2011, 05:52 PM
Magic!

Nominate Rick Barry he deserves a mention for top players

* NBA Champion (1975)
* NBA Finals MVP (1975)
* ABA Champion (1969)
* 8 NBA All-Star (19661967 19731978)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1967)
* 4 ABA All-Star (19691972)
* 5x All-NBA First Team (19661968, 19741976)
* All-NBA Second Team (1973)
* 4 All-ABA First Team (19691972)
* NBA Rookie of the Year (1966)
* NBA All-Rookie First Team (1966)
* Consensus NCAA All-American First Team (1965)
* NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
* #24 Retired by the Golden State Warriors

Career NBA and ABA statistics
Points 25,729 (24.8 ppg)
Rebounds 6,863 (6.7 rpg)
Assists 4,952 (4.9 apg)

Heediot
07-06-2011, 05:56 PM
Something Interesting when dividing FGA/FTA

Bird 3.876
Jordan 2.797
Irving 2.902
Wilkins 2.902

Wade 2.01
LeBron 2.30
Melo 2.45
Kobe 2.546
Iverson 2.43

The newer generation wings get to the line more than the older generation, is this because of rule changes and the lack of imposing interior defenders? Is it because they allow more flopping? Or is it because there is a lack of elite centers? Maybe a combination of many things.

Chrisstyles
07-06-2011, 06:23 PM
Why is magic so overrated, people have him rated as high as second on their list. Magic helped his team win but not more than Russell. Russell did everything he could to win and player/coached at the end of his career. Russell was not a great offensive player but neither was Magic. People say look at what the Lakers were without Magic, but look at what the Celtics were without Russell.
Magic is the second best assist man of all time and Russell is the second best rebounder of all time so that evens out. Defense definitely goes to Russell and offense barely goes to Magic.
Matter fact Bird won less than Magic but people fail to realize in the eighties, the West was VERY weak compared to the east. In the playoffs the Celtics had to face the Pistons who beat the Lakers for the title, the Milwalkee Bucks, the Philadelphia 76ers with Erving and Moses Malone. The only threat in the west was the Houston Rockets so if Bird was in the West he would have won more than Magic so stop overrating the man

Bruno
07-06-2011, 06:43 PM
Why is magic so overrated, people have him rated as high as second on their list. Magic helped his team win but not more than Russell. Russell did everything he could to win and player/coached at the end of his career. Russell was not a great offensive player but neither was Magic. People say look at what the Lakers were without Magic, but look at what the Celtics were without Russell.
Magic is the second best assist man of all time and Russell is the second best rebounder of all time so that evens out. Defense definitely goes to Russell and offense barely goes to Magic.
Matter fact Bird won less than Magic but people fail to realize in the eighties, the West was VERY weak compared to the east. In the playoffs the Celtics had to face the Pistons who beat the Lakers for the title, the Milwalkee Bucks, the Philadelphia 76ers with Erving and Moses Malone. The only threat in the west was the Houston Rockets so if Bird was in the West he would have won more than Magic so stop overrating the man

Offense goes to Magic by a large margin.

Speculation. Although Bird played in the tougher conference, well never know what would have happened had he been out west.

Jewelz0376
07-06-2011, 06:43 PM
Why is magic so overrated, people have him rated as high as second on their list. Magic helped his team win but not more than Russell. Russell did everything he could to win and player/coached at the end of his career. Russell was not a great offensive player but neither was Magic. People say look at what the Lakers were without Magic, but look at what the Celtics were without Russell.
Magic is the second best assist man of all time and Russell is the second best rebounder of all time so that evens out. Defense definitely goes to Russell and offense barely goes to Magic.
Matter fact Bird won less than Magic but people fail to realize in the eighties, the West was VERY weak compared to the east. In the playoffs the Celtics had to face the Pistons who beat the Lakers for the title, the Milwalkee Bucks, the Philadelphia 76ers with Erving and Moses Malone. The only threat in the west was the Houston Rockets so if Bird was in the West he would have won more than Magic so stop overrating the man

Lol I'd love to hear you explain these two points

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-06-2011, 06:46 PM
Need you guys to start nominating so that we can do a top 25 or even top 50.

Requirement for nomination is: Player had to be an allstar at least 3+ times as a minimum or have won League MVP or an allstar 2+ times with finals MVP.
Doing it this way gets rid of posters who would put guys like Cedric Maxwell who although he has a finals mvp never was an allstar.

Elgin Baylor.

RaidersLakers24
07-06-2011, 07:45 PM
Magic would have been 3rd if the youngsters didn't vote for Kobe! Kobe isn't better than Russel, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Duncan and Shaq.

Russell was a winner and great defensive player but give me Kobe who is also a winner the the better overall player, umm Kobe is in fact better then Larry bird check the all NBA teams all defensive all star game selections championships and stats Kobe is the better player, although Hakeem was a beast and a top 10 player Ill still take Kobe he has won 5 championships and overall his career looks alot better then hakeems, Duncan ehh his prime was great but he was rarely regarded as the best player in the league, that title belonged to shaq and Kobe, now Kobe and shaq are very close but the fact that Kobe is still playing at a great level compared to a player who already retired I'll take Kobe as well!

1.MJ
2.KAJ
3.Magic
4.Wilt
5.Kobe (IMO)

JordansBulls
07-06-2011, 07:54 PM
I nominate Karl Malone for the next round.

NYKalltheway
07-06-2011, 07:57 PM
I say remove Kobe from the next round :)

Korman12
07-06-2011, 08:04 PM
Magic. I'd have him at #2 personally, but whatever.

Hawkeye15
07-06-2011, 08:11 PM
Closed per OP request. #5 to come, thanks for voting