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Hans delbruk
07-03-2011, 04:50 PM
The NYR may have the best young defense corp in the NHL with Staal, McDonough, Erixon, Girardi and Sauer. The last serious hole to be filled is with an offensive defensemen who can improve the PP. The only remaining FA left to fill this void would be Kaberle and Babchuk and to a lesser extent Anton Stralman. Who do you think the NYR are considering and who makes sense? If none of these options are moved on quickly do they look at the trade front with RFA like Doughty (too expensive), Weber, Yandle or Alzner or elsewhere?

My hope is Babchuk who would be reasonable at between 2.5-3 mil per but doesnt play the physical game that Tortarella demands.

thoughts?

MentalHockey
07-03-2011, 05:07 PM
I think after Richards and the signing of our RFAs the Rangers won't have much money left under the cap, people estimate it will be like 3 mil. Unless the Rangers do something like get rid of Wolski and/or Avery I don't think they're going to go after anyone with that big of a name. Maybe they'll hope Del Zotto steps up.

nyanks79
07-03-2011, 05:16 PM
Yea I think MDZ will be up next year and play well. Like Gordie Clark said a couple weeks ago, MDZ was only supposed to be going down for a couple games, and then he got hurt. He just turned 21 and I think he will be really good in a couple of years. Plus I think Staal is going to continue to get better offensively and IMO Mcdounagh is too good of a skater to not be able to contribute more offensively too.

bsi
07-03-2011, 05:45 PM
I don't think we're adding D, the only way that happens is if McCabe decides he's gonna resign at a very VERY low rate, which given his last contract I doubt he does.

apdamico
07-03-2011, 05:56 PM
Resigning Eminger is also still an option. I would think the Rangers will add one veteran defenseman, either by trade or FA signing.

Hans delbruk
07-03-2011, 06:07 PM
The NYR have alot of options when it comes to freeing up $. I don't think this will prevent them from signing anyone else they think is necessay and I actually think a PP dfensemen is just that. I also don't think Del Zotto is a realistic option. I know a lot of NYR fans got high on him during his rookie season but reality is he cannot play defense at the NHL level and he is a long way off.

Does the team really make the investment it just did on Richards (to put them in the top 4 teams in the east) and not complete the biggest hole left? This team doesnt need to be an offensive powerhouse with their D and all hands on deck gritty play. But a strong PP is eesential to making any real noise in the playoffs.

apdamico
07-03-2011, 06:11 PM
The Rangers want to add a left-handed defenseman to the group.

I wouldn’t count out Ilkka Heikkinen, isn’t he suppose to come back to the US this coming season. He would provide the most experience out of the young available defensive talent, but I wouldn’t count out the shot-blocking machine, Pavel Valentenko or even Tomas Kundratek. All 3 are lefties and one of them certainly could make the jump this season.

We could also pull off a trade and get Fedor Tuytin back.

gabby10
07-03-2011, 10:22 PM
tyutin is an underachiever.. we dont need him back

Redfish
07-03-2011, 11:25 PM
With Staal, McDonagh and Erixon on defense, I really don't understand why the Rangers would be specifically wanting a left-handed defenseman. I could see wanting a right-handed d-man to balance things out, and Anton Babchuk not only fits that role, but also can handle power play duties. I also recall reports of the Rangers having interest in him the last time he was a free agent. I am not familiar, though, with the overall quality of his play, and he seems to get very few penalty minutes for such a big defender.

If we do not acquire another defenseman, then I hope we simply let a prospect, who is ready, get the NHL experience needed to further develop his game. I've heard a lot about Valentenko and think his physicality is sorely needed on the back line; and his shot blocking acumen would fit nicely into our defense well.

I do not believe Del Zotto is ready to assume NHL responsibilities. To me, he has struggled since the first half of his rookie season, and never really seemed to progress from there. I just question whether he will make the team, as much as we all would like to see him back.

Maybe there are more players available via trade than we realize. This free agency period saw a number of players get very high contracts, and that may require some shedding of salaries as we get further into the pre-season.

The next few weeks ought to be an interesting period, as we have some RFA singings to address and could see further personnel changes via the trade market.

nyrfan06
07-04-2011, 02:21 AM
Has anyone heard anything about how much McCabe is looking for or any possible destinations haven't heard much about him. Seems like a good option if the money is right as has been said. Also anyone think Eminger actually gets the chance to compete with some of the young guys for the last spot? Shouldn't be too expensive and is seemingly popular amongst many teammates.

RangersMets
07-04-2011, 04:24 AM
Babchuck is pretty much only good for the PP but Richards is a PPQB.

NOOOO THANK YOU to McCabe, the guy was skating in mud last year.

Sather doesn't do offer sheets so don't worry about Alzner.

Doughtly is undoubtedly too expensive.

Weber...just no.

Yandle would cost much much more than any of us, including the organization, would be willing to pay.

I'd rather resign Eminger at a reasonable rate or someone of that nature - not some old withered back end guy.

Staal - Girardi
Sauer - McDonaugh
Erixon - Eminger

Desert Plains
07-04-2011, 07:21 AM
I don't think we're adding D, the only way that happens is if McCabe decides he's gonna resign at a very VERY low rate, which given his last contract I doubt he does.

McCabe's not coming back. He was a bust for the few games he played.

He's old, slow, and not a good defender. He couldn't help the Power Play at all, so he has no use.

Desert Plains
07-04-2011, 07:32 AM
If we do not acquire another defenseman, then I hope we simply let a prospect, who is ready, get the NHL experience needed to further develop his game. I've heard a lot about Valentenko and think his physicality is sorely needed on the back line; and his shot blocking acumen would fit nicely into our defense well.

I do not believe Del Zotto is ready to assume NHL responsibilities. To me, he has struggled since the first half of his rookie season, and never really seemed to progress from there. I just question whether he will make the team, as much as we all would like to see him back.

I agree with you about MDZ. Though, I assume he'll be given a fair chance to make the team. But, I don't think he's ready, and I wonder if he'll ever be more then a 6th or 7th defensemen in the NHL (to me, he was never as good as he was given credit for his first year.).

As for Valentenko, my first thought was that he'd be the perfect guy to fill the 3rd pair. He's physical, plays with an edge and is a shot blocker. But, I've also heard his skating is poor, not good enough for the NHL. (But, hopefully, someone put him in touch with the woman who worked with Boyle last summer).

TFleury14
07-04-2011, 09:05 AM
Why not somebody like Sami Lepisto or Anton Stralman???

Redfish
07-04-2011, 09:56 AM
I read on another board that Valentenko's contract status is such that if he does not make the Rangers this season, he must go through waivers in order to go back to the AHL; and that he would very likely be claimed by another club. The inference being he stands a good chance of making the team this season, and that his situation is similar to Sauer's contract status last season.

Does anyone understand this and why this is so? If it is?

ernie.tarducci
07-04-2011, 10:59 AM
if Richards is to run the PP from the point and he is a left handed shot, then it would seem to make sense that the Rangers will be looking for someone with a cannon from the point to bury those one time passes, likely a right handed shot which Babchuk is...just my thought

apdamico
07-04-2011, 04:28 PM
I agree with you about MDZ. Though, I assume he'll be given a fair chance to make the team. But, I don't think he's ready, and I wonder if he'll ever be more then a 6th or 7th defensemen in the NHL (to me, he was never as good as he was given credit for his first year.).

As for Valentenko, my first thought was that he'd be the perfect guy to fill the 3rd pair. He's physical, plays with an edge and is a shot blocker. But, I've also heard his skating is poor, not good enough for the NHL. (But, hopefully, someone put him in touch with the woman who worked with Boyle last summer).

The one negative I heard about Valentenko was that he didn't play up to his size and was roughed up pretty good in the 1st half of last season.

That may not have been the case in the 2nd half of the season and he's a great shot blocker and plus/minus guy.

I think Erixon already has a slot on the team, but I hope Valentenko gets a fair shot at making the team. I believe the competition will come down to Valentenko versus MDZ for the final (7th) defensive spot on the team next season.

Pavel is more of a stay at home defenseman, which we already have, so MDZ could beat him out if the team is looking for the better skater. I still think Pavel fits the Tort-system better though because of his shot-blocking ability!

Redfish
07-04-2011, 04:36 PM
Valentenko was one of the last cuts last season, losing out to Sauer, Gilroy and Eminger, and he had an overall solid season in Hartford last year. I think Tortorella really appreciates the physicality he brings to the back line, along with his shot-blocking skills. Unless we trade for a player such as Yandle, I hope we go with a rookie and Eminger as our 6th & 7th defenseman. I particularly would like some more "snarl" from our defenseman, and Valentenko does have that.

nyanks79
07-04-2011, 11:22 PM
Flames sign Babchuck.

dashripdot
07-05-2011, 07:57 AM
The one negative I heard about Valentenko was that he didn't play up to his size and was roughed up pretty good in the 1st half of last season.

That may not have been the case in the 2nd half of the season and he's a great shot blocker and plus/minus guy.

I think Erixon already has a slot on the team, but I hope Valentenko gets a fair shot at making the team. I believe the competition will come down to Valentenko versus MDZ for the final (7th) defensive spot on the team next season.

Pavel is more of a stay at home defenseman, which we already have, so MDZ could beat him out if the team is looking for the better skater. I still think Pavel fits the Tort-system better though because of his shot-blocking ability!

If MDZ doesn't win a spot in the top 6, he'll be back in the AHL for another season. There's no point in having him as a healthy scratch while he should still be developing his game.

Redfish
07-05-2011, 11:42 AM
Regardless of who fills in our #6 and #7 defensive unit, I am hoping Tortorella is in a better position to allocate minutes/ice time throughout the three pairings a bit more evenly than last season. I thought Marc Staal and Dan Girardi were nearly tapped out going into the 1st round of playoffs last season, and had a strong view there was no way they could both make it deep into the playoffs without their performance suffering.

He rode our top pairing the way he rode Hank before we got Biron; it was necessary at the time I suppose. But McDonagh and Sauer can shoulder a larger burden this year. And Erixon and whoever pairs with him should be an upgrade over Eminger and Gilroy last year, so I hope a more balanced allocation of ice time is an objective this year.

apdamico
07-05-2011, 01:06 PM
Valentenko was one of the last cuts last season, losing out to Sauer, Gilroy and Eminger, and he had an overall solid season in Hartford last year. I think Tortorella really appreciates the physicality he brings to the back line, along with his shot-blocking skills. Unless we trade for a player such as Yandle, I hope we go with a rookie and Eminger as our 6th & 7th defenseman. I particularly would like some more "snarl" from our defenseman, and Valentenko does have that.

I'd love for Valentenko to make the club this season, but I don't know if he has that snarl you are looking for in a defensemen. It was my understanding that players were testing his will in the first 1/2 of last season in Hartford and he needed help from his teammates on a few occasions. I believe that was the exact reason for the call up of Big Mac instead of Pavel.

Again, I think he fits the Totorella system perfectly because he's a blocking machine and I think he started standing up for himself in the 2nd half of last season. I think he makes the club this season or the Rangers would have attempted to trade him. I just can't see him passing through waivers, which I believe he must do in order to play for the Whale next season.

apdamico
07-05-2011, 01:12 PM
If MDZ doesn't win a spot in the top 6, he'll be back in the AHL for another season. There's no point in having him as a healthy scratch while he should still be developing his game.

I fully agree and believe the same should hold true for Valentenko. I say sign Eminger as that veteran presents 6/7 defensemen. He wants to return and will likely take less money to do so.

We have so many great young defensemen in our system and lost Gilroy to FA, but I don't think the Rangers ever envisioned him on this year's team.

Some of the rest of the young defensemen in the system might be used as trade bait down the road. We just need Eminger for a year until DMac is ready for the bright lights.

dashripdot
07-05-2011, 01:38 PM
I fully agree and believe the same should hold true for Valentenko. I say sign Eminger as that veteran presents 6/7 defensemen. He wants to return and will likely take less money to do so.

We have so many great young defensemen in our system and lost Gilroy to FA, but I don't think the Rangers ever envisioned him on this year's team.

Some of the rest of the young defensemen in the system might be used as trade bait down the road. We just need Eminger for a year until DMac is ready for the bright lights.

Sather wanted Gilroy back as the 7th at a drastically reduced cap hit (hence, the non-tender), but Gilroy believes he can crack TB's top 6 (he's one of 8 defensemen TB has right now, most of which are mediocre-to-poor). Good luck to him, perhaps he will have more success there. He signed for 1 year at $1 mil, I believe.

bsi
07-05-2011, 01:46 PM
I really don't see Valentenko making this team, if he couldn't crack it last year he'll never crack it. We were desperate for someone to take a spot last year and had a revolving door of D-men until we finally got McCabe.

Redfish
07-05-2011, 02:12 PM
I really don't see Valentenko making this team, if he couldn't crack it last year he'll never crack it. We were desperate for someone to take a spot last year and had a revolving door of D-men until we finally got McCabe.

I hope this is not the case, and tend to think this conclusion is too much of stretch. McDonagh was only called up, initially, to be the 7th defenseman but then either Girardi or Eminger got hurt. He surprised management when he got his shot and only got better from there.

I really don't think we were desperate for a prospect to crack the lineup last year. Eminger was playing fine, for the most part, and it was in the Rangers best interest to give Gilroy every opportunity to show himself going into his UFA period. McCabe was necessary because we were desperate for a defenseman that could handle power play responsibilities; that, we were definitely desperate for.

We'll see. If not Paveltenko, which other prospects have a shot? I actually recall reading that Kundratek was highest on the depth chart at end of last season amongst defenseman.

If our prospects aren't ready, I've always thought Shane O'Brien would be a good fit on our 3rd pairing and could come for less than $2mm.

bsi
07-05-2011, 06:12 PM
I hope this is not the case, and tend to think this conclusion is too much of stretch. McDonagh was only called up, initially, to be the 7th defenseman but then either Girardi or Eminger got hurt. He surprised management when he got his shot and only got better from there.

I really don't think we were desperate for a prospect to crack the lineup last year. Eminger was playing fine, for the most part, and it was in the Rangers best interest to give Gilroy every opportunity to show himself going into his UFA period. McCabe was necessary because we were desperate for a defenseman that could handle power play responsibilities; that, we were definitely desperate for.

We'll see. If not Paveltenko, which other prospects have a shot? I actually recall reading that Kundratek was highest on the depth chart at end of last season amongst defenseman.

If our prospects aren't ready, I've always thought Shane O'Brien would be a good fit on our 3rd pairing and could come for less than $2mm.

We weren't desperate for someone to crack the lineup but with all the injuries and call ups, it's surprising that he never got a chance once last year, DelZotto was sent down and then immediately called back up we were so desperate for someone to fill in if Valentenko was in their plans at all I think they would have given him a shot at some point with all the ups and downs we had on D.

Hans delbruk
07-05-2011, 09:21 PM
Some good points and a few things to consider...

Valentenko should have a good shot to make the team this year. For all of his solid defensive play he suppossedly has a cannon shot from the point. Is he the PP guy?

Gilroy was never given the credit he deserved for his talent level here and if you were him would sign back to be a 7th D? My bet is given the cgance to play regularly and PP time he will be fine in TB. Torts chased him away so be it.

Eminger is a perfect 7th-8th D who can fill in but should not be expected to offer more than some veteran depth.

Lastly, the NYR actually have quite a bit of depth at F. There has been numerous rumors of them making a deal involving one of their RFAs. I can see them offering either Dubinsky or Anisimov for a solid offensive D. Here the possibilities become interesting as I already noted there are some very good Defense RFAs out there.

Dubinsky, Del Zotto (or Sauer), and a 1st or 2nd rounder for a Weber or Yandle could happen.

Hans delbruk
07-05-2011, 09:25 PM
Also, in looking at what Babchuk signed for how wasn't he the perfect fit with the salary cap considered (2yrs 2.5m)?

dashripdot
07-05-2011, 10:41 PM
Some good points and a few things to consider...

Valentenko should have a good shot to make the team this year. For all of his solid defensive play he suppossedly has a cannon shot from the point. Is he the PP guy?

Gilroy was never given the credit he deserved for his talent level here and if you were him would sign back to be a 7th D? My bet is given the cgance to play regularly and PP time he will be fine in TB. Torts chased him away so be it. Eminger is a perfect 7th-8th D who can fill in but should not be expected to offer more than some veteran depth.

Lastly, the NYR actually have quite a bit of depth at F. There has been numerous rumors of them making a deal involving one of their RFAs. I can see them offering either Dubinsky or Anisimov for a solid offensive D. Here the possibilities become interesting as I already noted there are some very good Defense RFAs out there.

Dubinsky, Del Zotto (or Sauer), and a 1st or 2nd rounder for a Weber or Yandle could happen.

His talent is limited to his speed and an average shot, but not a shot you want to see from the point. More importatnly, he was 26 going on 27. He's 5-6 years older than, but at about the same point on the learning curve that McDonagh and MDZ are on, yet and he showed no more improvement than MDZ and less than McDonagh. I'm no fan of Tortorella, but he didn't chase Gilroy. Gilroy's style of play (no hitting and all wheels) may well be better suited to TB's philosophy, but he wasn't going to crack the top 6 with the Rangers.

Hans delbruk
07-05-2011, 11:17 PM
I undertsand your point but my opinion is that Gilroy was never given the opportunity to show what he could do here. Especially considering how MDZ was handled in comparison. DelZotto was given every opportunity until it was painfully clear he couldn't play defense at the NHL level. I'm not saying this was a strength of Gilroy's but he was better. I can't count how many games Del Zotto literally lost on the defensive side of the puck and was still played over Gilroy who also was lucky to get 20 seconds of PP time when he was given any PP time at all. It took until this year's playoffs for them to recognize that he was their best skating and offensive D and was given serious playing consideration.

The point about Tortarella is that it is a mistake to expect every player to play the same way. Some guys skate and some guys shoot and to get the best out of your players is to let them do what they bring to the game. When you can only trust a handful of players to play your style then you get what happened in the playoffs this year. Staal and Girardi exhausted and logging more minutes than Ovechkin did resulting in tired errors like giving the puck away in OT (for Staal game 1). Its like watching a high school coach who only uses one line.

saintant182
07-06-2011, 04:57 AM
I undertsand your point but my opinion is that Gilroy was never given the opportunity to show what he could do here. Especially considering how MDZ was handled in comparison. DelZotto was given every opportunity until it was painfully clear he couldn't play defense at the NHL level. I'm not saying this was a strength of Gilroy's but he was better. I can't count how many games Del Zotto literally lost on the defensive side of the puck and was still played over Gilroy who also was lucky to get 20 seconds of PP time when he was given any PP time at all. It took until this year's playoffs for them to recognize that he was their best skating and offensive D and was given serious playing consideration.

The point about Tortarella is that it is a mistake to expect every player to play the same way. Some guys skate and some guys shoot and to get the best out of your players is to let them do what they bring to the game. When you can only trust a handful of players to play your style then you get what happened in the playoffs this year. Staal and Girardi exhausted and logging more minutes than Ovechkin did resulting in tired errors like giving the puck away in OT (for Staal game 1). Its like watching a high school coach who only uses one line.

gilroy played 132 games for the rangers.. so add to that pre season and practices i think they would have seen everything they needed to see to make a well informed decision about his ability and how he fits within the team. i agree players play different styles but if gilroys style is a hindrance to torts system then he isn't going to give him 20 mins a game. for the record i thought gilroy was one dimensional and was rarely a difference maker, and for someone who is supposed to be an offensive dman, he didnt do himself any favours

dashripdot
07-06-2011, 09:46 AM
I undertsand your point but my opinion is that Gilroy was never given the opportunity to show what he could do here. Especially considering how MDZ was handled in comparison. DelZotto was given every opportunity until it was painfully clear he couldn't play defense at the NHL level. I'm not saying this was a strength of Gilroy's but he was better. I can't count how many games Del Zotto literally lost on the defensive side of the puck and was still played over Gilroy who also was lucky to get 20 seconds of PP time when he was given any PP time at all. It took until this year's playoffs for them to recognize that he was their best skating and offensive D and was given serious playing consideration.

The point about Tortarella is that it is a mistake to expect every player to play the same way. Some guys skate and some guys shoot and to get the best out of your players is to let them do what they bring to the game. When you can only trust a handful of players to play your style then you get what happened in the playoffs this year. Staal and Girardi exhausted and logging more minutes than Ovechkin did resulting in tired errors like giving the puck away in OT (for Staal game 1). Its like watching a high school coach who only uses one line.

Because MDZ initially had surprising success moving the puck, both at even strength and on the PP, in the absence of any other PMD -- and particularly because of Redden's failure to be the guy they signed him to be -- the Rangers forced the issue, although the 19-year old didn't continue to develop as fast as the organization needed him to. I agree that his defense has been bad (especially his positioning), but he at least has a physical aspect to his game that some thought didn't exist. So, now he is starting all over in the hope that he fulfills his potential and can play in the NHL again. I think he will, but I don't know if that's this season or next, or the one after that. They still don't have a PMD, unless Erixon has improved in that area, but he's more of an all-around defenseman than one you think of as your primary offensive weapon from the point.

I didn't see Gilroy showing either the level of offensive potential that exists for MDZ, nor the willingness to play the body. MDZ's defensive problems can be fixed over time. Gilroy's lack of desire to engage the opposition cannot. Could the Rangers have gone with one "soft" defenseman in the top six? They could have, but chose not to. I agree with that decision because I personally favor the physical style of play. I also agree that Tortorella's style/philosphy excludes some players who might otherwise help a team, but I don't think Gilroy would have been one of those players in any event. I would rather they brought him back as , essentially, a "swing-man" who could serve as both the 7th defenseman and a healthy-scratch forward, saving them cap space by filling two roles for the team. Ultimately, I think any success he has in the NHL will come in that form, not as a top-6 defenseman.

Redfish
07-06-2011, 10:22 AM
Suffice to say, our defense this upcoming season is poised to be much better than last year.

Eminger, Gilroy and Del Zotto comprised our 5th through 7th defenseman last season, and when Del Zotto showed he needed extended time in the AHL, McCabe was brought in.

This season, Gilroy and McCabe are not with the club, and Eminger will be our 7th defenseman with veteran experience. Ranger management is obviously convinced Erixon is an upgrade over all four which filled in the holes last year; and are also comfortable that either Valentenko or Kundratek are an upgrade over Gilroy, or whoever filled the 6th slot last season. This assumes Del Zotto will require further time in the AHL, which is my personal view, but who is to say with certainty that he has not gotten his head straight and is prepared to assume a role on the club again.

Add to all this the fact that McDonagh and Sauer will start the season with experience and a ton of confidence from their success last season, and I think we are clearly much stronger than last. There will be no sophomore slumps for either player.

Redfish
07-12-2011, 10:13 AM
** this is translation from a Finnish paper **

Sami Lepistö might enjoy next season in Manhattan's bright lights.

Defenseman Sami Lepistö is currently without a club. According to a source, the Helsinki native is negotiating a contract with the New York Rangers.

- More than one club has shown interest. I do not want to mention any team names, things are still open. I do not yet know where I will play next season, Lepistö commented to MTV3.


I don't know what kind of player Lepisto is other than what his stats suggest, which is a sound 3rd pairing type defenseman. If the Rangers are indeed negotiating with him, does it mean they intend to go with Lepisto and Eminger as 6th/7th defenseman? Or might Eminger be advised to sign with another team to make room for a rookie and Lepisto?

dashripdot
07-12-2011, 10:52 AM
I suspect Lepisto, if signed by the Rangers, would be the 7th, since none of the prospects fighting for a spot on the bottom pair would gain anything from being the 7th defenseman. Either play nightly in the NHL or play nightly in the AHL for the sake of their development.

Dernelle
07-12-2011, 03:16 PM
No reason to rush McIlrath to the NHL although I am excited for him in the future. I know the 20 prospects series on the Rangers' website is all propaganda to get us fans excited for prospects that really may not be anything, but based on the reviews of some of these prospects, I can see it being a pretty interesting and exciting battle for the 5-7 spots. I don't think Erixon is guaranteed to make the team (I recall everyone saying McDonagh was going to make it out of camp last year and that didn't come to pass). I can see Valentenko and the other Russian getting real shots as well as Kundratek. I also feel there is no guarantee that McDonagh is in the top 4 pairing despite his strong play last year. Regardless it should be fun to watch.

Redfish
07-13-2011, 12:45 PM
As for Gilroy and Avery, I am surprised some still are of the view that Tortorella has not given these players ample opportunity to flourish with this club. Sauer, McDonagh, and Boyle are all excellent examples of players which either took advantage of the opportunity given or, in the case of Boyle, simply played his way into a core role with the team. Gilroy had two seasons to finally switch his performance into higher gear, and was slow to progress. Same goes for Avery; he appears to have the skills, but he simply has not learned to bring it on a consistent basis. It has nothing to do with the refs or the coach, and everything to do with Avery. Tortorella is not simply trying to construct a roster; he is trying to construct a roster which translates into an upper echelon club. I am very pleased we have a coach that holds his players to a standard of excellence and commitment; that's the differencebetween most clubs, and Stanley Cup winning clubs.

fingerbang
07-13-2011, 01:17 PM
As for Gilroy and Avery, I am surprised some still are of the view that Tortorella has not given these players ample opportunity to flourish with this club. Sauer, McDonagh, and Boyle are all excellent examples of players which either took advantage of the opportunity given or, in the case of Boyle, simply played his way into a core role with the team. Gilroy had two seasons to finally switch his performance into higher gear, and was slow to progress. Same goes for Avery; he appears to have the skills, but he simply has not learned to bring it on a consistent basis. It has nothing to do with the refs or the coach, and everything to do with Avery. Tortorella is not simply trying to construct a roster; he is trying to construct a roster which translates into an upper echelon club. I am very pleased we have a coach that holds his players to a standard of excellence and commitment; that's the differencebetween most clubs, and Stanley Cup winning clubs.


Gilroy was a fine third pairing defenseman last season. He played a great series against Washington. I think he'll have some success in Tampa.

Avery just doesn't get the minutes anymore. People try to say that he only plays when he wants to but in reality I don't see him dogging it during any of his shifts. Avery always skates hard to pucks on the boards. You can't expect the guy to put up good offensive numbers when he's not getting the ice time or playing with guys who can create. Back when Renne was coaching he was one of our more important players. Torts will probably bury him on the fourth line and we'll get a new whipping boy next season.

dashripdot
07-13-2011, 01:35 PM
Gilroy was a fine third pairing defenseman last season. He played a great series against Washington. I think he'll have some success in Tampa.

Avery just doesn't get the minutes anymore. People try to say that he only plays when he wants to but in reality I don't see him dogging it during any of his shifts. Avery always skates hard to pucks on the boards. You can't expect the guy to put up good offensive numbers when he's not getting the ice time or playing with guys who can create. Back when Renne was coaching he was one of our more important players. Torts will probably bury him on the fourth line and we'll get a new whipping boy next season.

[1] Gilroy doesn't have what it takes to play defense in the NHL. He has value as an offensive player coming from the blueline, but I don't see him having success as a defender. [2] When Avery was having success for the Rangers he was keeping the opposition off its game and drawing penalties. I can't recall the last time he had any success doing that consistenly, because since he came back from Dallas the officials just won't call anything where he's involved unless it's blatant retaliation. He's occasionally had success because of his skating ability and willingness to fight for pucks along the boards but he lacks the size and strength to do it enough, and he's sometimes been a drag on the team for the past two seasons. [3] Tortorella is slowly getting to the point where the roster has nothing but his guys (Richards, Fedotenko) or his type of guy (Callahan, Prust), but he's still got Wolski and Avery to kick around for another season, at most.

fingerbang
07-13-2011, 01:59 PM
[1] Gilroy doesn't have what it takes to play defense in the NHL. He has value as an offensive player coming from the blueline, but I don't see him having success as a defender. [2] When Avery was having success for the Rangers he was keeping the opposition off its game and drawing penalties. I can't recall the last time he had any success doing that consistenly, because since he came back from Dallas the officials just won't call anything where he's involved unless it's blatant retaliation. He's occasionally had success because of his skating ability and willingness to fight for pucks along the boards but he lacks the size and strength to do it enough, and he's sometimes been a drag on the team for the past two seasons. [3] Tortorella is slowly getting to the point where the roster has nothing but his guys (Richards, Fedotenko) or his type of guy (Callahan, Prust), but he's still got Wolski and Avery to kick around for another season, at most.


While Gilroy didn't dominate in the defensive end he still got the job done. Like I said he was fine as a 3rd pairing guy. Redfish said that he was given more than enough opportunities. Well, Gilroy is an offensive defenseman that really didn't see much PP time...

Avery always drew a few and took some stupid ones too. Avery has value because he's a hard working hockey player that doesn't hesitate to throw his body into the corner and fight for a puck. He always skates hard and he actually moves the puck around well unlike 3/4 of our roster. That hasn't gone away, the ice time has. He's not getting as many calls as he used to but lets not act like that was the main reason he was out there in the first place. He's still a pest when he's out on the ice.

It's ironic because because Avery's style of play is exactly what Torts wants from his other players. Torts just doesn't like Avery as a person and that's why he doesn't 'fit' the team.

dashripdot
07-13-2011, 02:43 PM
While Gilroy didn't dominate in the defensive end he still got the job done. Like I said he was fine as a 3rd pairing guy. Redfish said that he was given more than enough opportunities. Well, Gilroy is an offensive defenseman that really didn't see much PP time...

Avery always drew a few and took some stupid ones too. Avery has value because he's a hard working hockey player that doesn't hesitate to throw his body into the corner and fight for a puck. He always skates hard and he actually moves the puck around well unlike 3/4 of our roster. That hasn't gone away, the ice time has. He's not getting as many calls as he used to but lets not act like that was the main reason he was out there in the first place. He's still a pest when he's out on the ice.

It's ironic because because Avery's style of play is exactly what Torts wants from his other players. Torts just doesn't like Avery as a person and that's why he doesn't 'fit' the team.

This is no defense of Tortorella, but once he realized that Avery wasn't gonna get anymore calls, there wasn't much Tortorella could do about it ("Hey, why don't you guys let my agitator agitate?"), and Avery, despite the good things he does, just isn't physically substantial enough to contribute. He works pretty well along the boards, but gets knocked off the puck too easily away from the boards, has good speed, but gets knocked off of his skates too easily. I don't dislike him, but I don't see that he has the same value he once had.

fingerbang
07-13-2011, 03:16 PM
This is no defense of Tortorella, but once he realized that Avery wasn't gonna get anymore calls, there wasn't much Tortorella could do about it ("Hey, why don't you guys let my agitator agitate?"), and Avery, despite the good things he does, just isn't physically substantial enough to contribute. He works pretty well along the boards, but gets knocked off the puck too easily away from the boards, has good speed, but gets knocked off of his skates too easily. I don't dislike him, but I don't see that he has the same value he once had.

I don't agree with your analysis of avery. He's one of the better dump and chasers on the team with his speed. He also cycles the puck well. He's well worth the two million he makes. If Renne was still coaching this team he'd be a candidate for the top line considering our depth at LW.

Redfish
07-13-2011, 05:02 PM
I don't agree with your analysis of avery. He's one of the better dump and chasers on the team with his speed. He also cycles the puck well. He's well worth the two million he makes. If Renne was still coaching this team he'd be a candidate for the top line considering our depth at LW.

Maybe this is an example of why Renney isn't the coach here. Honestly, Avery has never been a top line winger in his career. And, if he hasn't learned to play at a high level on a consistent basis at this point in his career, he likely will not ever. Hence, he is a quality 4th line winger who, on better clubs, may or may not be in the lineup each night.

fingerbang
07-13-2011, 05:23 PM
I just think it's hypocritical of Torts to play dump and chase playoff hockey and then leave Avery out of the lineup for a game. Avery was one of the few players that was actually winning races to the puck.

His personality might not fit but his game certainly does.

bsi
07-13-2011, 05:44 PM
I just think it's hypocritical of Torts to play dump and chase playoff hockey and then leave Avery out of the lineup for a game. Avery was one of the few players that was actually winning races to the puck.

His personality might not fit but his game certainly does.

Avery needs to look no further than the mirror if he wants to find out who's keeping him out of the lineup. He has to be more like Callahan, Dubinsky, Staal, Girardi, Prospal, Prust, and bring it every night, not taking nights off or taking dumb penalties.

Mr.Wiskers
07-13-2011, 08:32 PM
Maybe we're not watching the same Ranger games. Avery gets penalized for things others don't get penalized for because he has a bad rep. Avery plays hard, he's watched under a microscope and every little thing gets called against him. I've seen Talbot, Cooke, and even Ovechkin do worse and get away with more. As far as Valentenko, I've read scouting reports about him being an agitator who has a rocket shot and a better shot blocker than Sauer. He's already proven himself in the AHL.

Mr.Wiskers
07-13-2011, 08:36 PM
Hockey futures.com says Valentenko plays a physical game that borders on dirty. Had the hardest shot in 07-08.

Mr.Wiskers
07-13-2011, 08:37 PM
Sorry it's hockeysfuture.com and it says borders but never crosses dirty play.

Mr.Wiskers
07-13-2011, 08:43 PM
I don't know how to cut and paste the scouting report, hope someone can.

Redfish
07-13-2011, 11:07 PM
In my view, the primary reason for Avery's performance and consistency shortfalls is hockey is a means to an end for him. By this, I mean he uses the game of hockey to feed a personal life that he cares more about, than the game itself. For the vast majority of players, hockey is everything, and hockey players are "who they are." For Avery, I personally think he uses the game of hockey to fuel his off-ice interests (clothing lines, restaurants, public advocacy, etc..). And, for this reason, his interest level, team dedication, mental focus, and overall commitment is less than a majority of players. He simply has other interests not related to hockey.

I am looking forward to the day he is no longer with the club. I think it is a situation of addition by subtraction, even if it won't happen until the end of this upcoming season.

Garden Faithful
07-14-2011, 01:33 AM
In my view, the primary reason for Avery's performance and consistency shortfalls is hockey is a means to an end for him. By this, I mean he uses the game of hockey to feed a personal life that he cares more about, than the game itself. For the vast majority of players, hockey is everything, and hockey players are "who they are." For Avery, I personally think he uses the game of hockey to fuel his off-ice interests (clothing lines, restaurants, public advocacy, etc..). And, for this reason, his interest level, team dedication, mental focus, and overall commitment is less than a majority of players. He simply has other interests not related to hockey.

I am looking forward to the day he is no longer with the club. I think it is a situation of addition by subtraction, even if it won't happen until the end of this upcoming season.

I'm not sure you can really make that argument seeing as he played pro hockey for almost 9 years before he did any of that. I'm not saying he is the greatest or he cares as much or more than others I'm just saying to call this guy out as not caring is a bit much. He doesn't dog it out on the ice by any stretch of the imagination and honestly he hasn't done so much off-ice. He had his internship and that's pretty much it aside from designing a line of men's **** last year. He opened up a bar with some people and a restaurant with hank and he did one ad for gay rights. It's not like he has a reality show. I personally don't get all the hatred for Avery on these forums but I guess to each his own.

Mr.Wiskers
07-14-2011, 10:26 AM
I agree totally with Garden Faithful, Avery hasn't been arrested for anything, so what if he has a clothing line, Jeter has a colgne and does commercials for Ford. Companies design clothes and all Avery does is decide whether he wants his name on it or not. You make it sound like he's in his house with a sewing machine making each and every piece of garment or he's cooking in the back or tending bar--please !! All those are investments for him. As I said before he. Plays hard and is watched under a microscope thus penalized more than others. Torts doesn't give him the playing time because of that( every time he's on the ice could be a penalty waiting to happen).

Redfish
07-14-2011, 12:50 PM
I'm not sure you can really make that argument seeing as he played pro hockey for almost 9 years before he did any of that. I'm not saying he is the greatest or he cares as much or more than others I'm just saying to call this guy out as not caring is a bit much. He doesn't dog it out on the ice by any stretch of the imagination and honestly he hasn't done so much off-ice. He had his internship and that's pretty much it aside from designing a line of men's **** last year. He opened up a bar with some people and a restaurant with hank and he did one ad for gay rights. It's not like he has a reality show. I personally don't get all the hatred for Avery on these forums but I guess to each his own.

What he did prior to the Rangers is irrelevant to my opinion that as a Ranger, he may have off-ice interests that are more important to him than hockey. That's just an opinion, based on it being the only logical reason to me that he is so inconsistent on the ice; whereas most other players have responded to the challenges presented to them by this coaching staff. This opinion may not be accurate, and I do not at all begrudge Avery for having a life outside of hockey. Frankly, I don't care about his off-ice interests. I care about his on-ice performance and it has been very spotty; undisciplined; streaky; and, overall, just mediocre. He simply isn't contributing much to the club. At nearly a $2mm cap hit, the organization ought to be getting something of tangible value that improves the club. I just don't understand why fans seem to give Avery a pass...."it's the referees....it's the coach..." After so many years in the NHL, perhaps he simply doesn't have much talent? He is a fourth line winger,in my view, and one that wouldn't make the roster on any top 6 teams. Again, Tortorella is trying to construct a cup winning team; not simply a roster. I don't see Avery as being part of that winning team.

If he proves this assessment wrong this season, I'd be very happy, and first to admit my misjudgement. I don't think this will be the case though, unfortunately.

Redfish
07-14-2011, 12:58 PM
I agree totally with Garden Faithful, Avery hasn't been arrested for anything, so what if he has a clothing line, Jeter has a colgne and does commercials for Ford. Companies design clothes and all Avery does is decide whether he wants his name on it or not. You make it sound like he's in his house with a sewing machine making each and every piece of garment or he's cooking in the back or tending bar--please !! All those are investments for him. As I said before he. Plays hard and is watched under a microscope thus penalized more than others. Torts doesn't give him the playing time because of that( every time he's on the ice could be a penalty waiting to happen).

This is a reasonable view. And, putting aside whether this is fair, it is reality. All coaches have to deal with reality. If this is reality, then the only conclusion is Avery does not offer much to the team, given the microscope, scrutiny and penalty risk. We may not like it, but again, this is reality. I'd rather spend $2mm on a guy that can consistently put up 30 points each season and be good along the boards and in special situations. Or perform some other role for the team. But, it is fair to ask: what role does Avery serve on this team? I just don't see it.....

fingerbang
07-14-2011, 02:14 PM
What he did prior to the Rangers is irrelevant to my opinion that as a Ranger, he may have off-ice interests that are more important to him than hockey. That's just an opinion, based on it being the only logical reason to me that he is so inconsistent on the ice; whereas most other players have responded to the challenges presented to them by this coaching staff. This opinion may not be accurate, and I do not at all begrudge Avery for having a life outside of hockey. Frankly, I don't care about his off-ice interests. I care about his on-ice performance and it has been very spotty; undisciplined; streaky; and, overall, just mediocre. He simply isn't contributing much to the club. At nearly a $2mm cap hit, the organization ought to be getting something of tangible value that improves the club. I just don't understand why fans seem to give Avery a pass...."it's the referees....it's the coach..." After so many years in the NHL, perhaps he simply doesn't have much talent? He is a fourth line winger,in my view, and one that wouldn't make the roster on any top 6 teams. Again, Tortorella is trying to construct a cup winning team; not simply a roster. I don't see Avery as being part of that winning team.

If he proves this assessment wrong this season, I'd be very happy, and first to admit my misjudgement. I don't think this will be the case though, unfortunately.


How long have you been watching Rangers games? Up until Torts **** on his ice time he was amazing for us and a bargain to boot.

Remember all of those statistics comparing our record with Sean in the lineup vs. Sean out of the lineup?

It's funny because this time last season me and some of the other Rangers fans on the site(cough in this thread) were sticking up for him in the main forum. He has one mediocre season and all of a sudden he's a guy that's going to prevent us from being a successful team.

BTW* You say that after so many years maybe he doesn't have any talent? The guy was GREAT for the Rangers four out of his five years.

Don't be that NY sports fan.

thegame248
07-14-2011, 02:37 PM
How long have you been watching Rangers games? Up until Torts **** on his ice time he was amazing for us and a bargain to boot.

Remember all of those statistics comparing our record with Sean in the lineup vs. Sean out of the lineup?

It's funny because this time last season me and some of the other Rangers fans on the site(cough in this thread) were sticking up for him in the main forum. He has one mediocre season and all of a sudden he's a guy that's going to prevent us from being a successful team.

BTW* You say that after so many years maybe he doesn't have any talent? The guy was GREAT for the Rangers four out of his five years.

Don't be that NY sports fan.

This ^^. There was also a time that Avery was the top line left wing on a line with Dubinsky and Jagr, and that line was pretty good for us for a little while.

Redfish
07-14-2011, 04:40 PM
How long have you been watching Rangers games? Up until Torts **** on his ice time he was amazing for us and a bargain to boot.

Remember all of those statistics comparing our record with Sean in the lineup vs. Sean out of the lineup?

It's funny because this time last season me and some of the other Rangers fans on the site(cough in this thread) were sticking up for him in the main forum. He has one mediocre season and all of a sudden he's a guy that's going to prevent us from being a successful team.

BTW* You say that after so many years maybe he doesn't have any talent? The guy was GREAT for the Rangers four out of his five years.

Don't be that NY sports fan.

Well, for whatever it is worth, I've been watching the Rangers for 33 years now. Amazing? Great? Wow, those are pretty strong adjectives to describe for a player with his performance record.

During his best years with the Rangers, recall that we were a lousy team. It's not hard being a solid player on a lousy team. It is hard being a good player on a good team, and Avery right now is a 4th line player with the Rangers. And, as we get better, I am of the view his role gets more diminished, to the point where he will no longer make our team. I hope he proves me wrong, though. I do believe he can be a solid 4th line winger. But, he just doesn't seem to have learned, after all these seasons in the NHL, how to put together an entire season of playing at a high performance level.

While I think the referees and coach are used as excuses by fans of Avery, let's all attribute his inconsistency to Tortorella, for discussion purposes, ok? I'm fine with the notion that Tortorella is much more valuable to the club than Avery and, if Avery cannot play for Tortorella, then let's move him. An approximate $2mm cap hit should generate much more production than what the team is getting out of Avery.

Anyway, I've probably spent too much time on this. Thanks for the back and forth dialogue around Avery.

commonsense12
07-14-2011, 05:44 PM
Here is my take on Avery:

Avery is a very useful player in the right situations. He gets under the skin of opposing players (Brodeur, Kovie just to name a few) and that allows him to draw penalties and take players off their games. Nothing is better then seeing a player go crazy because they respond to Avery's antics and end up in the penalty box. We score a PP goal and that player loses their minds, essentially checking out of the game and allowing us to get the win. He will also put in a goal and occasionally throw down with someone. Def not bad for a little less then 2 mill cap hit.

Here is the problem. The League has caught up with his act and they are basically ignoring so many penalties against him. Basically i think they are sick of him. All that being said because his act has been caught up too, it has hurt us many times in the recent past. Torts sees this and it has cost him in playing time and prob the team in wins (due to his penalties).

Avery to be effective has to play on the line and if the refs dont call anything he is not as useful. In terms of grit and toughness he has been replaced by guys like Prust and now Rupp. So the simple fact is if he is not getting players off their game and drawing penalties he is easily replaceable. Especially on this team because we have so many 3rd and 4th line players.

Personally i like Avery because he has made a big difference in years past but for this upcoming year i think we could be better without him. His points production could be replaced and we have already replaced his fiestiness. The only thing we cant replace is his ability to be a top pest to opposing players, but again if the refs have had enough and it doesnt work, we need to move on from his antics and use his roster spot for someone who can make more of a difference.

fingerbang
07-14-2011, 07:46 PM
Well, for whatever it is worth, I've been watching the Rangers for 33 years now. Amazing? Great? Wow, those are pretty strong adjectives to describe for a player with his performance record.

During his best years with the Rangers, recall that we were a lousy team. It's not hard being a solid player on a lousy team. It is hard being a good player on a good team, and Avery right now is a 4th line player with the Rangers. And, as we get better, I am of the view his role gets more diminished, to the point where he will no longer make our team. I hope he proves me wrong, though. I do believe he can be a solid 4th line winger. But, he just doesn't seem to have learned, after all these seasons in the NHL, how to put together an entire season of playing at a high performance level.

While I think the referees and coach are used as excuses by fans of Avery, let's all attribute his inconsistency to Tortorella, for discussion purposes, ok? I'm fine with the notion that Tortorella is much more valuable to the club than Avery and, if Avery cannot play for Tortorella, then let's move him. An approximate $2mm cap hit should generate much more production than what the team is getting out of Avery.

Anyway, I've probably spent too much time on this. Thanks for the back and forth dialogue around Avery.


Avery's minutes have gone from a 16 average to about 11 under Torts. You're not going to get any more production from a 2 million player seeing that kind of ice time. We just gave Mike Rupp 1.5 and he's most likely not going to match Avery's production assuming Torts plays them equally.

For arguments sake, what kind of production do you expect from a guy who's making that kind of money?

jpfunk86
07-14-2011, 07:57 PM
Just cause wete paying him 2 doesn't mean he's making 2. The mans making 4 a year

jpfunk86
07-14-2011, 07:58 PM
We're*, and what I'm trying to say is you can't compare him to Rupp, the price tag isn't remotely close

fingerbang
07-14-2011, 08:06 PM
He costs us 1.9 on the books. That's what we'd free up by getting rid of him. It's been a ****ing awesome contract for us.

Redfish
07-14-2011, 10:12 PM
Avery's minutes have gone from a 16 average to about 11 under Torts. You're not going to get any more production from a 2 million player seeing that kind of ice time. We just gave Mike Rupp 1.5 and he's most likely not going to match Avery's production assuming Torts plays them equally.

For arguments sake, what kind of production do you expect from a guy who's making that kind of money?

Well, for arguments sake, Tyler Kennedy, Blake Wheeler, Anthony Stewart, Brian Boyle, Fedetenko, Prust, etc....are all players which contribute more to their teams for that kind of $$, or less.

Look, like I said, Avery can be a solid 4th line winger. But let's be serious and not make him out to a potential 2nd or 1st line player, as some have suggested. He isn't even a 3rd line winger on the Rangers, or most other teams. And, he is very inconsistent. He looks great in a few games and then the next 7-10 games does nothing or, worse, hurts the team.

Rupp may or may not match Avery's production; time will tell. Yet, Rupp in my view will make many other contributions that Avery will not.

Finally, Avery's minutes are a function of his performance, not the other way around. If his play dictated more ice time, I am sure he would get it.

commonsense12
07-14-2011, 11:05 PM
Fust an FYI look at Avery's production while he has been a Ranger:

06-07 GP 29 G 8 A 12 PTS 20
07-08 GP 57 G 15 A 18 PTS 33
08-09 GP 18 G 5 A 7 PTS 12
09-10 GP 69 G 11 A 20 PTS 31
10-11 GP 76 G 3 A 21 PTS 24

So in terms of production he hasnt been a force in the last 2 yrs and 3 yrs ago it was only for a very small amount of games.

bsi
07-14-2011, 11:11 PM
I think Avery is a better player than he shows on most nights, and that's what frustrates me. He can play but he seems to only play against certain teams and he's inconsistant, so for a coach that's hard to figure out, which Avery are you gonna get tonight because he can help you win when he's on but when he's not on, he costs us games. It may be different this year if our powerplay gets going and we have more offense with Richards where a penalty here or there doesn't hurt us but the last couple years we were winning our games by a goal and a penalty was the difference between winning and losing. I really liked how he played with Boyle and Prust in the playoffs, but he has to show up like he did in playoffs from day 1.

fingerbang
07-15-2011, 01:11 AM
Well, for arguments sake, Tyler Kennedy, Blake Wheeler, Anthony Stewart, Brian Boyle, Fedetenko, Prust, etc....are all players which contribute more to their teams for that kind of $$, or less.

Look, like I said, Avery can be a solid 4th line winger. But let's be serious and not make him out to a potential 2nd or 1st line player, as some have suggested. He isn't even a 3rd line winger on the Rangers, or most other teams. And, he is very inconsistent. He looks great in a few games and then the next 7-10 games does nothing or, worse, hurts the team.

Rupp may or may not match Avery's production; time will tell. Yet, Rupp in my view will make many other contributions that Avery will not.

Finally, Avery's minutes are a function of his performance, not the other way around. If his play dictated more ice time, I am sure he would get it.


Four of those guys were signed as RFA's and Avery has given us just as much as Prust and IMO more. Avery would put up more points than Fedetenko if you flipped their ice time. Torts doesn't like Avery. The second Torts took over he cut his minutes.

commonsense12
07-15-2011, 02:27 AM
Four of those guys were signed as RFA's and Avery has given us just as much as Prust and IMO more. Avery would put up more points than Fedetenko if you flipped their ice time. Torts doesn't like Avery. The second Torts took over he cut his minutes.

Honestly who cares about those guys. The reality is that Avery has only broken 40 pts once in his career and that was way back in 06-07. Christ in less games last year scored more pts then him and he had a lot less playing time then Avery.

2 mill is a lot of money for a guy that if he has a good season puts up 30 pts while registering 174 penalty minutes unless he is an enforcer and Avery is not an enforcer by any means. We all know Prust and Rupp will be our enforcers. Christ as much as i want him gone is a better offensive option for less money.

Like i said before the only thing avery brings is his ability to agitate and we all know its not working anymore. Refs are onto him and his antics are not flying anymore. He is a redundency on this team, thats why some of us want him gone.

fingerbang
07-15-2011, 01:53 PM
Honestly who cares about those guys. The reality is that Avery has only broken 40 pts once in his career and that was way back in 06-07. Christ in less games last year scored more pts then him and he had a lot less playing time then Avery.

2 mill is a lot of money for a guy that if he has a good season puts up 30 pts while registering 174 penalty minutes unless he is an enforcer and Avery is not an enforcer by any means. We all know Prust and Rupp will be our enforcers. Christ as much as i want him gone is a better offensive option for less money.

Like i said before the only thing avery brings is his ability to agitate and we all know its not working anymore. Refs are onto him and his antics are not flying anymore. He is a redundency on this team, thats why some of us want him gone.

It really isn't. Throw in the fact that points aren't everything. Avery skates hard, digs in the corners, and throws his body around.

I'm done arguing. It's funny how quickly the fans turn on a player.

*BTW Avery prorates to about a 40 pt average given legitimate ice time and a full season worth of games.

2011 free agents signings similar to Avery's Cap hit:

Chris Higgins: 1.9
Max Talbot: 1.8
Andrew Brunette: 2

MentalHockey
07-15-2011, 04:04 PM
How did a thread on defense get turned into an Avery argument? It's the second thread that its happened to.

ElementCo27
07-15-2011, 10:37 PM
How did a thread on defense get turned into an Avery argument? It's the second thread that its happened to.

XD hahaha. Well to put my $.02 in, I feel like Avery could put up the points IF he tried hard enough, which in turn would give him more time. Those nights he was digging for the puck every time he was out were great examples, but the next time he'd play that would disappear and Torts would sit/scratch him. Brian Boyle was getting the same treatment until night in and night out he was putting in endless effort for the team. I don't think its as much of a problem with Torts as you think it is. I feel like Torts probably doesn't like him, but he's still a professional. He just needs to work a little harder. He did great in the assist dept., but I'd like to see between 10-15 goals from the guy. Technically he is earning 4mil. I've loved Avery since he's been in NY so don't say I'm hating on him, I'd just like to see a little more production out of him.

And whoever said he has more production than Prust, you're out of your freakin mind. Prust sticks up for everyone. He's always skating his hardest. He can also score some goals too and set people up. I'm not knocking either of them, but Prust is a better pest/enforcer. He keeps it within the boundaries so he won't get dogged by zebras every night he plays.

And how bout that defense huh? To get back on topic, I'd like to say our defense has evolved a lot over the past couple years. No more Redden or Rozy (even though I have his autograph haha), our young guys are proving themselves (McDonaugh, Sauer, and others soon), and hopefully our vets will give them a thing or two to learn.

dashripdot
07-16-2011, 08:38 AM
Yeah, back on topic: 'Hawks signed Lepisto for $750k (no great loss to the Rangers), and have decided in advance to walk away from Campoli's arbitration award, so he will be an UFA. Problem is his cap hit was $1.4 mil last season and combined with whatever bump he gets in arbitration, the Rangers won't have the room to sign him. I suppose it's looking more like Eminger is coming back as the 7th, but they're likely to go into camp with just the kids and after that gets sorted out add Eminger or someone like him before they head overseas for the opener.

saintant182
07-16-2011, 09:02 AM
Yeah, back on topic: 'Hawks signed Lepisto for $750k (no great loss to the Rangers), and have decided in advance to walk away from Campoli's arbitration award, so he will be an UFA. Problem is his cap hit was $1.4 mil last season and combined with whatever bump he gets in arbitration, the Rangers won't have the room to sign him. I suppose it's looking more like Eminger is coming back as the 7th, but they're likely to go into camp with just the kids and after that gets sorted out add Eminger or someone like him before they head overseas for the opener.

not to once again go off topic... but i will be at the rangers v ducks game in stockholm!!!!! cant wait!!! :)

commonsense12
07-16-2011, 11:55 AM
It really isn't. Throw in the fact that points aren't everything. Avery skates hard, digs in the corners, and throws his body around.

I'm done arguing. It's funny how quickly the fans turn on a player.

*BTW Avery prorates to about a 40 pt average given legitimate ice time and a full season worth of games.

2011 free agents signings similar to Avery's Cap hit:

Chris Higgins: 1.9
Max Talbot: 1.8
Andrew Brunette: 2

We have plenty of guys who dig pucks out from the boards, body check and skate hard. BTW Avery doesnt do this every game. In fact he was invisible for large portions of the season. Hence why his ice time was cut.

How quickly people turn? His worst seasons as a Ranger were his last 2. So 2 seasons is pretty quick? Plus on top of that last season was not just bad it was terrible. 3 goals is just unacceptable for any player that is not a goon.

You cant prorate ice time and say thats how players will perform. The reality is Avery did not perform last season while he was on the ice so he got less ice time. Others players that were doing better then him received more ice time. I mena who are you going to take ice time away from? Christ, Prust and MZA all were better players then him last year and more effective.

Also comparing him to FA signings doesnt make sense. When Avery hit FA he got signed for 4 mill per year, its only after our waiver claim we got him for 2 mill. Plus the cap was way lower back then so in theory similar players should make more money today in free agency as players of a few years ago.

nyr1980
07-16-2011, 12:08 PM
Avery can neither play every night, nor get significant icetime on this team anymore. With all back in the fold, which I think we're all assuming will be the case, there are too may forwards in the mix in front of him to make that option realistic or justifiable.

Assuming all are back, the top 9 forwards are likely to be:
Richards, Gaborik, Dubinsky, Callahan, Anisimov, Stepan, Boyle, Prust, and Fedotenko.

That's 8 of 9 from last year, and Richards is certainly in that group.

That list excludes Wolski, MZA, and Christensen, all of whom out-produced Avery last year. And those guys are all on the bubble in their own way.

It is possible that Wolski and MZA play top 9 minutes/roles, but if that is the case, then some combo of Boyle Prust and Feds is the 4th line. With the addition of Rupp, and the slight possibility of own of the prospects making the team out of camp, Avery has his work cut out for him.

I think he'll make the team, but I think he's an extra forward at this point.

As it stands right now, assuming Dubi and Cally are back, there are 5 guys playing for those last 3 starting spots among the forward group.

nyr1980
07-16-2011, 12:31 PM
To get back on the topic of the thread, this is where the defense sits, IMO.

Staal, Girardi, McDonagh, and Sauer are for sure there.

Erixon and MDZ likely make the team.

The other young defensemen in the sytem, like Valentenko, McIlraith, Kundratek, and maybe Pashnin have a shot at the 7th spot. But I think that they will probably invite a couple of FA vets to camp this year in the hopes that one of them can step up and win a spot as the 6th or 7th defenseman, giving them the option of not having to play 2 really young kids at the 5 and 6 spots on D every night.

dashripdot
07-16-2011, 01:12 PM
No rookie will regularly be in the 7th spot; it would be counterproductive to that player's development to sit every night. They'll sign/trade for somebody for $1 mil or less to fill that role.

bsi
07-16-2011, 03:12 PM
MDZ will be on a short leash, I still think Eminger is going to be resigned once Callahan and Dubinsky are signed as well. Valentenko and Pashnin will get a chance there.

fingerbang
07-16-2011, 03:43 PM
We have plenty of guys who dig pucks out from the boards, body check and skate hard. BTW Avery doesnt do this every game. In fact he was invisible for large portions of the season. Hence why his ice time was cut.

How quickly people turn? His worst seasons as a Ranger were his last 2. So 2 seasons is pretty quick? Plus on top of that last season was not just bad it was terrible. 3 goals is just unacceptable for any player that is not a goon.

You cant prorate ice time and say thats how players will perform. The reality is Avery did not perform last season while he was on the ice so he got less ice time. Others players that were doing better then him received more ice time. I mena who are you going to take ice time away from? Christ, Prust and MZA all were better players then him last year and more effective.

Also comparing him to FA signings doesnt make sense. When Avery hit FA he got signed for 4 mill per year, its only after our waiver claim we got him for 2 mill. Plus the cap was way lower back then so in theory similar players should make more money today in free agency as players of a few years ago.


Of course it does. It's called opportuinity cost.

You said 2 million dollars was too much money for Avery and I'm comparing him to other players recievering that kind of money... which he compares favorably to.

Garden Faithful
07-16-2011, 04:26 PM
We have plenty of guys who dig pucks out from the boards, body check and skate hard. BTW Avery doesnt do this every game. In fact he was invisible for large portions of the season. Hence why his ice time was cut.

How quickly people turn? His worst seasons as a Ranger were his last 2. So 2 seasons is pretty quick? Plus on top of that last season was not just bad it was terrible. 3 goals is just unacceptable for any player that is not a goon.

You cant prorate ice time and say thats how players will perform. The reality is Avery did not perform last season while he was on the ice so he got less ice time. Others players that were doing better then him received more ice time. I mena who are you going to take ice time away from? Christ, Prust and MZA all were better players then him last year and more effective.

Also comparing him to FA signings doesnt make sense. When Avery hit FA he got signed for 4 mill per year, its only after our waiver claim we got him for 2 mill. Plus the cap was way lower back then so in theory similar players should make more money today in free agency as players of a few years ago.


Of course it does. It's called opportuinity cost.

You said 2 million dollars was too much money for Avery and I'm comparing him to other players recievering that kind of money... which he compares favorably to.

The thing is with Avery you can compare him to a FA because we picked him up from another team at a specific price. He was picked up by the Rangers for 2 million a year whether he makes 4 or not is irrelevant because it is as if we signed him for 2 million. For us the comparison should be to others making that money not 4 million because the other 2 million has nothing to do with us. And in reality I would take him over a lot of other players making the money he does. And honestly its easy to say how can you take ice time from a player like Christensen who has a lot of potential but in reality he disappears for games at a time just like Wolski does. And let's be real even if Avery is not that good or is overpaid he clearly is not on favorable terms with Torts and is not going to be given the benefit of the doubt or as opportunities as others would in the same position under Torts. Torts doesn't like him plain and simple.

nyr1980
07-16-2011, 06:01 PM
We can sing the Avery song all we like, but he's not the same player he was a few years back, he doesn't provide the same spark with consistency as he used to, he takes too may penalties for a guy who played 11 mins a night last year, and he is a liability even when he is inside the rules because of his reputation with the refs.

That's enough to keep him out of the line up or down below 10 mins a night as it is. When you throw in the facts that Torts is not exactly in love with him, and there are 10 forwards on this team (I won't name them, it's not hard to figure out who they are) that give you more than Avery does, how is it possible that his playing time increases?

Dallas overpaid for Avery in the summer of '08, and $2 million is probably too much for him now, as he's likely a 4th liner at best on this team moving forward.

fingerbang
07-16-2011, 08:48 PM
We can sing the Avery song all we like, but he's not the same player he was a few years back, he doesn't provide the same spark with consistency as he used to, he takes too may penalties for a guy who played 11 mins a night last year, and he is a liability even when he is inside the rules because of his reputation with the refs.

That's enough to keep him out of the line up or down below 10 mins a night as it is. When you throw in the facts that Torts is not exactly in love with him, and there are 10 forwards on this team (I won't name them, it's not hard to figure out who they are) that give you more than Avery does, how is it possible that his playing time increases?

Dallas overpaid for Avery in the summer of '08, and $2 million is probably too much for him now, as he's likely a 4th liner at best on this team moving forward.


You can't tell me that he's not worth 2 million and then completely disregard any scale or measuring stick. When compared to signings this seasons, players that we would be looking to replace him with, Avery is very comparable.

You guys are arguing that his play has reduced his ice time (inconsistency). I'm arguing that his ice time was cut by Torts unfairly which results in what you call inconsistency.

I think it's a load of ******** to single out Avery for his inconsistency especially when the same could be said about half of the roster.

Gabs, MZA, Christensen, Boyle, Wolski, Prospal, etc.. were all pretty damn inconsistent at times too.

The bottom line is that the second Torts came here he cut his minutes. We all new that Torts didn't like Sean when we signed him to be our coach. You can't expect consistency out of a guy who isn't getting consistent minutes or being used properly.

nyr1980
07-17-2011, 02:04 AM
Dallas did over pay for him. A $4 mil a year cap hit for a guy who has never exceeded 15 goals in a saeason, nor topped the wopping plateau of 40 pts. That's too much money, in any economy, in any market, with or without a salary cap.

To put that in perspective, lets stroll down memory lane way back to the summer of 08, shall we. Guess who else signed a deal that summer worth $4mil a year against the cap.? Who's that you say, Brad Boyes?

Yes, Brad Boyes. Who got $4 mil a year off a 40 goal season. And Dallas s**t the bed giving that amount of money to a guy who had only once scored 15 in a season. Not to mention the fact that he spends 3 mins a night or better in the box, and has a tendency to run his big f***ing mouth in the press.

And I've seen a few people in this forum saying that they had wished the Rangers had gotten Boyes as cheaply as Buffalo had.

As for Avery being worth $2mil? Well I said he's PROBABLY not worth that money. But if he comes out this season, earns the icetime, stays out of the box, is an agitator, and scores 15-20 goals, then he's worth it. If he has another season like the last 2, then he's not.

Over the last 2 years, he hasn't been worth his contract.

Brian Boyle had 21 goals last year, is 5 years younger than Avery, and he didn't get $2mil a year.

Everyone needs to accept the fact that until he shows otherwise, Avery is a 1 game in 10 performer, a liability, and should play 4th line minutes.

nyr1980
07-17-2011, 02:09 AM
And you can't compare him to signing this season. The cap is much bigger now as opposed to when Avery signed the deal he's on.

I don't think anyone in this forum would be upset if by some miracle Avery was traded.

Redfish
07-17-2011, 09:15 AM
MDZ will be on a short leash, I still think Eminger is going to be resigned once Callahan and Dubinsky are signed as well. Valentenko and Pashnin will get a chance there.

With MDZ, he has to have an outstanding pre-season to make the team and lead management to forget about last year. The last thing they want with him this season is to give him a roster spot, and then have to send him down to the AHL mid-season. For this reason, unless MDZ has a great camp, literally, I think he will start the year in Connecticut until it is painfully obvious he has recaptured his mental focus and improved his defensive skills.

Redfish
07-17-2011, 09:16 AM
Dallas did over pay for him. A $4 mil a year cap hit for a guy who has never exceeded 15 goals in a saeason, nor topped the wopping plateau of 40 pts. That's too much money, in any economy, in any market, with or without a salary cap.

To put that in perspective, lets stroll down memory lane way back to the summer of 08, shall we. Guess who else signed a deal that summer worth $4mil a year against the cap.? Who's that you say, Brad Boyes?

Yes, Brad Boyes. Who got $4 mil a year off a 40 goal season. And Dallas s**t the bed giving that amount of money to a guy who had only once scored 15 in a season. Not to mention the fact that he spends 3 mins a night or better in the box, and has a tendency to run his big f***ing mouth in the press.

And I've seen a few people in this forum saying that they had wished the Rangers had gotten Boyes as cheaply as Buffalo had.

As for Avery being worth $2mil? Well I said he's PROBABLY not worth that money. But if he comes out this season, earns the icetime, stays out of the box, is an agitator, and scores 15-20 goals, then he's worth it. If he has another season like the last 2, then he's not.

Over the last 2 years, he hasn't been worth his contract.

Brian Boyle had 21 goals last year, is 5 years younger than Avery, and he didn't get $2mil a year.

Everyone needs to accept the fact that until he shows otherwise, Avery is a 1 game in 10 performer, a liability, and should play 4th line minutes.

Amen....

saintant182
07-17-2011, 11:09 AM
Amen....

also agreed

fingerbang
07-17-2011, 02:20 PM
And you can't compare him to signing this season. The cap is much bigger now as opposed to when Avery signed the deal he's on.

I don't think anyone in this forum would be upset if by some miracle Avery was traded.

Yea you can. I don't know why you disagree with this. You compare him to other players that he could have been replaced with this season. You can't go back in time four years and sign a player. That's the foregone opportunity of having Avery on the team.

Saying Avery shows up once out of every ten games is complete ********. A huge exaggeration

Garden Faithful
07-17-2011, 05:46 PM
Everyone needs to accept the fact that until he shows otherwise, Avery is a 1 game in 10 performer, a liability, and should play 4th line minutes.

As opposed to Wolski and Christensen who show up for every game

bsi
07-17-2011, 05:53 PM
As opposed to Wolski and Christensen who show up for every game

Only differences are that you can't trust Avery in a close game to not take a dumb penalty and Wolski is only a kid and has potential to be better, it appears as though Avery's already peaked two years ago.

Redfish
07-17-2011, 06:39 PM
Only differences are that you can't trust Avery in a close game to not take a dumb penalty and Wolski is only a kid and has potential to be better, it appears as though Avery's already peaked two years ago.

There is also the "small" difference in skill. Wolski has scored 60+ points in a season, and has that capacity; maybe more if he could ever put it all together. At his best, Avery is a 35-40 point type of player, and that seems ages ago.

fingerbang
07-17-2011, 08:06 PM
There is also the "small" difference in skill. Wolski has scored 60+ points in a season, and has that capacity; maybe more if he could ever put it all together. At his best, Avery is a 35-40 point type of player, and that seems ages ago.

There's also a big difference in defensive ability and toughness. Avery gets his hands dirty, Wolski doesn't. Offensive ability is extremely overrated when it's all that a player can bring to the table. Wolski plays like Zherdev.

Avery also makes half of what Wolski does.

commonsense12
07-17-2011, 08:11 PM
There's also a big difference in defensive ability and toughness. Avery gets his hands dirty, Wolski doesn't. Offensive ability is extremely overrated when it's all that a player can bring to the table. Wolski plays like Zherdev.

Avery also makes half of what Wolski does.

This team has enough gritty players it needs scoring. Wolski is way better then Avery in that department and its not even close.

saintant182
07-17-2011, 08:16 PM
There's also a big difference in defensive ability and toughness. Avery gets his hands dirty, Wolski doesn't. Offensive ability is extremely overrated when it's all that a player can bring to the table. Wolski plays like Zherdev.

Avery also makes half of what Wolski does.

wolly isnt afraid of the corners at all, and gets in there. he may not do it as much as avery at alll but thats because avery has to as thats his game, wolly has more to offer so doent just need to play a boards game every shift.

fingerbang
07-17-2011, 08:22 PM
This team has enough gritty players it needs scoring. Wolski is way better then Avery in that department and its not even close.

Well, we were physically beaten down by Washington in the playoffs. They outworked us and won all the races to the puck.

Everyone says, "the players play hard for Torts". What should we be basing off of. The fact that they showed up for one game in the playoffs.

nyr1980
07-18-2011, 12:31 AM
As opposed to Wolski and Christensen who show up for every game

No, I agree. None of those guys are consistent. That's why none of them are likely better than 3rd liners on their best days.

But we weren't talking about Wolski and Christensen. And both of them have more skill then Avery.

Garden Faithful
07-18-2011, 02:31 AM
No, I agree. None of those guys are consistent. That's why none of them are likely better than 3rd liners on their best days.

But we weren't talking about Wolski and Christensen. And both of them have more skill then Avery.

The reason I bring them up is because others have talked about them on the first line with Gabs and Richards and the fact that we are paying Wolski 4 mill when, unless he plays consistently in terms of effort, he is not worth that and people are *****ing about Avery making 2 a year from us.

dashripdot
07-18-2011, 08:25 AM
There's also a big difference in defensive ability and toughness. Avery gets his hands dirty, Wolski doesn't. Offensive ability is extremely overrated when it's all that a player can bring to the table. Wolski plays like Zherdev.

Avery also makes half of what Wolski does.

No, he makes more than Wolski. The Rangers pay him less. The Rangers were right not to sign Avery for what Dallas agreed to pay him. He's never had that kind of value. It was great to get him for half that, but because of what he put himself through in Dallas and how the league has perceived and treated him since then, he was damaged goods once the Rangers got him back and, ultimately, not worth even what the Rangers pay him now.

fingerbang
07-18-2011, 12:49 PM
The fact that Dallas still pays Avery is completely irrelevant to us and this discussion. Stop bringing it up. He has a 1.9 cap hit which is half of what Wolski makes.

"Damaged goods" Sean (I guess he was raped in Dallas) played pretty well for us when we got him back.

beast023
07-18-2011, 01:37 PM
well i think as far as this conversation goes it doesnt really matter that avery is making 4 mil. im sure he makes more than that with all of his side endeavors... he could be making that extra 2 mil selling high heals on canal street for all we know but the fact is he is being paid by our team 2 mil and that is how much counts against our cap, so that's his designated value to our team.

but for the sake of comparisons lets compare him to prust... similar games played... Avery 76, Prust 82; similar points Avery 24, Prust 29; similar minutes Avery 11:14, Prust 13:48; similar pims Avery 174 Prust 160 (excluding fighting majors Avery 110, Prust 70); and i'm sure Prust will get a similar contract extension in the 1.5 to 2 mil range next summer or sooner and i realize Prust has slightly more value playing pk mins and takes a few less dumb penalties, but they are somewhat comparable. Avery is being paid like a 3rd/4th line winger and those are the minutes he's getting and how he's producing. from what i watched of the playoff games he played this year, he meshed very well with prust and boyle. i think if hes matched with those two next season most of us will be quite content with his place on this team. he may have lost a step or two as an agitator, but still has pretty good speed and play making ability for a 3rd/4th liner. he fits that role better than christensen and wolski especially in our system. he needs to be a little smarter when it comes to penalties, but i think he's capable of that. its not like he did what ben eager did in the playoffs against the canucks. i'd say he's at least smarter than that.

dashripdot
07-18-2011, 02:40 PM
The fact that Dallas still pays Avery is completely irrelevant to us and this discussion. Stop bringing it up. He has a 1.9 cap hit which is half of what Wolski makes.

"Damaged goods" Sean (I guess he was raped in Dallas) played pretty well for us when we got him back.

No, it's not, if either of them are to stay on this roster -- and particularly beyond this season. I'm not interested in keeping either of them now if they're not going to play well enough this season to warrant discussion of keeping them beyond this season. And if that happened, do you think Avery is going to want to re-sign for $2 mil, or will he want something closer to the $4 mil he currently makes? Under no circumstances is he worth $4 mil to the Rangers, so of course it's relevant. "Stop bringing it up"? When Avery wants to negotiate his next deal, do you think a GM would say "Well, you were only paid $1.9 by the Rangers, so ... this is what we're willing to offer ..."? What would Avery say to that?

bsi
07-18-2011, 04:26 PM
well i think as far as this conversation goes it doesnt really matter that avery is making 4 mil. im sure he makes more than that with all of his side endeavors... he could be making that extra 2 mil selling high heals on canal street for all we know but the fact is he is being paid by our team 2 mil and that is how much counts against our cap, so that's his designated value to our team.

but for the sake of comparisons lets compare him to prust... similar games played... Avery 76, Prust 82; similar points Avery 24, Prust 29; similar minutes Avery 11:14, Prust 13:48; similar pims Avery 174 Prust 160 (excluding fighting majors Avery 110, Prust 70); and i'm sure Prust will get a similar contract extension in the 1.5 to 2 mil range next summer or sooner and i realize Prust has slightly more value playing pk mins and takes a few less dumb penalties, but they are somewhat comparable. Avery is being paid like a 3rd/4th line winger and those are the minutes he's getting and how he's producing. from what i watched of the playoff games he played this year, he meshed very well with prust and boyle. i think if hes matched with those two next season most of us will be quite content with his place on this team. he may have lost a step or two as an agitator, but still has pretty good speed and play making ability for a 3rd/4th liner. he fits that role better than christensen and wolski especially in our system. he needs to be a little smarter when it comes to penalties, but i think he's capable of that. its not like he did what ben eager did in the playoffs against the canucks. i'd say he's at least smarter than that.

I'm doubtful anyone here would say Avery has more worth to this team than Prust.Also everyone likes to compare Avery to Wolski, well the only problem is that Wolski is a goal scorer, he's young and he could still turn into a 30 goal scorer, something Avery will never do at this point in his career. Wolski is only 25, I do believe he's being paid too much at this point in his career but I'd personally like to resign him next year for a lot lighter contract for a couple years and see if he matures. Keep in mind the guy had doubled his point total from the time he started in the OHL until the time he left and he had 128 points in his final year of the OHL with Brampton and had 18 points in the playoffs in 11 games then too. I think the skill is there, it's a matter of maturity and when he matures someone is going to have a oood hockey player on their hands, something that may have been said about Avery 6 years ago, but not anymore.

saintant182
07-18-2011, 06:56 PM
I'm doubtful anyone here would say Avery has more worth to this team than Prust.Also everyone likes to compare Avery to Wolski, well the only problem is that Wolski is a goal scorer, he's young and he could still turn into a 30 goal scorer, something Avery will never do at this point in his career. Wolski is only 25, I do believe he's being paid too much at this point in his career but I'd personally like to resign him next year for a lot lighter contract for a couple years and see if he matures. Keep in mind the guy had doubled his point total from the time he started in the OHL until the time he left and he had 128 points in his final year of the OHL with Brampton and had 18 points in the playoffs in 11 games then too. I think the skill is there, it's a matter of maturity and when he matures someone is going to have a oood hockey player on their hands, something that may have been said about Avery 6 years ago, but not anymore.

definitely but this has in part to do with the fact that colorado let him go as a ufa after a very decent 4 years with them,aswell as being young still, so his value was inflated due to the teams bidding for his services, either way it is what he is being paid and thats the simple fact of it i guess.

thegame248
07-18-2011, 10:27 PM
definitely but this has in part to do with the fact that colorado let him go as a ufa after a very decent 4 years with them,aswell as being young still, so his value was inflated due to the teams bidding for his services, either way it is what he is being paid and thats the simple fact of it i guess.

Colorado didnt let him walk as a FA. They traded him to Phoenix for Peter Mueller. I think that trade was a case of both young players in need of a change of scenery/ new system to play in.

fingerbang
07-18-2011, 11:39 PM
No, it's not, if either of them are to stay on this roster -- and particularly beyond this season. I'm not interested in keeping either of them now if they're not going to play well enough this season to warrant discussion of keeping them beyond this season. And if that happened, do you think Avery is going to want to re-sign for $2 mil, or will he want something closer to the $4 mil he currently makes? Under no circumstances is he worth $4 mil to the Rangers, so of course it's relevant. "Stop bringing it up"? When Avery wants to negotiate his next deal, do you think a GM would say "Well, you were only paid $1.9 by the Rangers, so ... this is what we're willing to offer ..."? What would Avery say to that?

I never said he was worth 4 million dollars, in fact, I'd be singing an entirely different tune if that's what his cap hit looked like.

We pay him 1.9 so that's what's relevant. It's pretty reasonable.

Redfish
07-19-2011, 08:58 AM
well i think as far as this conversation goes it doesnt really matter that avery is making 4 mil. im sure he makes more than that with all of his side endeavors... he could be making that extra 2 mil selling high heals on canal street for all we know but the fact is he is being paid by our team 2 mil and that is how much counts against our cap, so that's his designated value to our team.

but for the sake of comparisons lets compare him to prust... similar games played... Avery 76, Prust 82; similar points Avery 24, Prust 29; similar minutes Avery 11:14, Prust 13:48; similar pims Avery 174 Prust 160 (excluding fighting majors Avery 110, Prust 70); and i'm sure Prust will get a similar contract extension in the 1.5 to 2 mil range next summer or sooner and i realize Prust has slightly more value playing pk mins and takes a few less dumb penalties, but they are somewhat comparable. Avery is being paid like a 3rd/4th line winger and those are the minutes he's getting and how he's producing. from what i watched of the playoff games he played this year, he meshed very well with prust and boyle. i think if hes matched with those two next season most of us will be quite content with his place on this team. he may have lost a step or two as an agitator, but still has pretty good speed and play making ability for a 3rd/4th liner. he fits that role better than christensen and wolski especially in our system. he needs to be a little smarter when it comes to penalties, but i think he's capable of that. its not like he did what ben eager did in the playoffs against the canucks. i'd say he's at least smarter than that.

While the statistics shown between Avery and Prust are similar, I think most would say there is a vast difference between the contributions the two players make to the team. The stats do not show forechecking effectiveness; consistency game to game; and on-ice leadership. These are some of the reasons why Prust has been discussed as a potential alternate captain, and are also the reasons why there is frustration with Avery's performance. The PIMs ex-fighting minutes was very interesting, actually, and does reveal how smart and disciplined each player is as well.

All things considered, I think the performance and contributions from Avery the past two seasons were closer to $1mm in value, than $2mm. I'm just not a fan of Avery; he doesn't get it done for me. Players such as Prust, Fedetenko and likely Rupp, have marginalized the need for Avery, and possibly opened up a role for a more skilled player such as Mats Zuccarella Assen. Also, let's not overlook the fact each of those players (Prust, Feds and Rupp) brings something to the identity of this team the coach is trying to construct. Avery detracts from that objective, and is one of the reasons why Tortorella, just days after hired as coach of the Rangers, stated Avery is not his type of player but will work with him. That was a concession from a new coach to his new boss (Sather). The clock is ticking for Avery's future on this team.

dashripdot
07-19-2011, 10:50 AM
I never said he was worth 4 million dollars, in fact, I'd be singing an entirely different tune if that's what his cap hit looked like.

We pay him 1.9 so that's what's relevant. It's pretty reasonable.

He's not making the same contribution to the Rangers that he was prior to leaving for Dallas (yeah, I know, the Rangers have a different coach, so he's being used a bit differently). Based on his performance over the last two seasons, and projecting that he'll be used the same way this season (it's a pipe-dream for those who say he's going to get a regular shot at playing on the top line with Gaborik and Richards), I'm convinced the Rangers don't bring him back on a new deal, even at $2 mil.

commonsense12
07-19-2011, 11:06 AM
Well, we were physically beaten down by Washington in the playoffs. They outworked us and won all the races to the puck.

Everyone says, "the players play hard for Torts". What should we be basing off of. The fact that they showed up for one game in the playoffs.

We were not physically beaten down by washington, we lacked skill. We didnt pass well, we cant shoot, we were way too slow and frankly they just skated around us. That series had nothing to do with physical presense.

commonsense12
07-19-2011, 11:17 AM
I still cant believe people are debating about a player who had only 3 goals last year and a -4 rating. On top of that he makes almost 2 mill lol Really?

saintant182
07-19-2011, 12:24 PM
I still cant believe people are debating about a player who had only 3 goals last year and a -4 rating. On top of that he makes almost 2 mill lol Really?

...and in a thread that is supposed to discuss our defense

Isca92
07-19-2011, 12:36 PM
according to brooks via twitter, Rangers are close to resigning Eminger as 6/7 defenseman.

bsi
07-19-2011, 01:16 PM
We were not physically beaten down by washington, we lacked skill. We didnt pass well, we cant shoot, we were way too slow and frankly they just skated around us. That series had nothing to do with physical presense.

I agree, if anything one of the few bright spots of our series was our physicality. Our PP sucked and we couldn't score. Missing Ryan Callahan was huge.

fingerbang
07-19-2011, 01:59 PM
We were not physically beaten down by washington, we lacked skill. We didnt pass well, we cant shoot, we were way too slow and frankly they just skated around us. That series had nothing to do with physical presense.

Both Washington and NYR played pretty simple brand of hockey. Washington didn't even open up until we took the 3 goal lead in game 4.

If we had plenty of gritty players we wouldn't have gotten beaten down by Washington's dump and chase. That series was about fighting for the puck and we got killed.

jetsfan89
07-19-2011, 02:30 PM
Both Washington and NYR played pretty simple brand of hockey. Washington didn't even open up until we took the 3 goal lead in game 4.

If we had plenty of gritty players we wouldn't have gotten beaten down by Washington's dump and chase. That series was about fighting for the puck and we got killed.

No offense but were you living under a rock the entire season? We don't have a lot of gritty players? Well then we would have missed the playoffs because we certainly didn't make it because we had the most talent. Washington didn't outwork us, they were able to finish their goal scoring opportunities and we didn't.

bsi
07-19-2011, 04:04 PM
Both Washington and NYR played pretty simple brand of hockey. Washington didn't even open up until we took the 3 goal lead in game 4.

If we had plenty of gritty players we wouldn't have gotten beaten down by Washington's dump and chase. That series was about fighting for the puck and we got killed.

I disagree with this yet just for humour sake, do you think more Sean Avery would have won that series? Or would another skilled forward have helped more? Because as I saw it, Avery was getting plenty of ice time with Boyle and Prust, and all he mustered up was 1 assist. How many gritty players does this team need? We have Boyle, Prust, Avery, Fedotenko, Dubinsky, Callahan, and now Rupp...should we add more? If anything we have one of the grittiest teams in the league. That series was lost because of lingering injuries and lack of goal scoring from Gaborik and our PP.

Redfish
07-19-2011, 07:09 PM
according to brooks via twitter, Rangers are close to resigning Eminger as 6/7 defenseman.

This solidifies the view the Rangers will be going with Erixon and a prospect as 5th/6th defenseman. Either Valentenko, Del Zotto, or Kundratek I suppose. I am betting MDZ starts in the AHL this season and is called up mid-year. I don't think the Rangers want to start him with the club unless there is no doubt he is ready, and last year's issues are no longer a concern.

saintant182
07-19-2011, 07:48 PM
This solidifies the view the Rangers will be going with Erixon and a prospect as 5th/6th defenseman. Either Valentenko, Del Zotto, or Kundratek I suppose. I am betting MDZ starts in the AHL this season and is called up mid-year. I don't think the Rangers want to start him with the club unless there is no doubt he is ready, and last year's issues are no longer a concern.

i feel the same with regards to del zotto, if he comes into camp and storm's it, then fair play to him and im sure he earns a spot. but if there are one or two question marks i say start him with the whale, it just starts him where he left off last season and gives him something to work towards, rather than keeping him in longer than necessary and killing is confidence with another demotion. The coaches down there, along with redden shall surely get his defensive game to where it needs to be if this is to happen

from following the guys that i have followed on twitter, it looks like many of them are starting to get themselves ready for camp allready so sounds like everyone is gunning to get right into it once camp rolls around.

i am happy bringing eminger back also, he will make a perfect 6/7th dman for the team, he is nothing outstanding but will consistantly give a decent effort and has some grit to add and is effectively a veteran presence as far as our young d goes. hopefully its for something cheap. i know brooksie has said it will likely get done soon but i wonder if they hold out until the arb hearings are done so sather has an idea of cap

fingerbang
07-19-2011, 08:06 PM
I disagree with this yet just for humour sake, do you think more Sean Avery would have won that series? Or would another skilled forward have helped more? Because as I saw it, Avery was getting plenty of ice time with Boyle and Prust, and all he mustered up was 1 assist. How many gritty players does this team need? We have Boyle, Prust, Avery, Fedotenko, Dubinsky, Callahan, and now Rupp...should we add more? If anything we have one of the grittiest teams in the league. That series was lost because of lingering injuries and lack of goal scoring from Gaborik and our PP.


Hey, I'm all for adding a PPG scorer but it's not going to happen for 1.9 million. At least Sean fits on a third line unlike an MZA or Wolski. Torts likes to pair these guys up with grinders and they just can't complement each others style of play.

Our big competitors in the east (Boston, Pittsburgh, Washington) grind us out even with all these 'gritty players' that we supposedly have.

Washington mopped the floor with us. I really don't think an extra skill guy would have helped. They had control of the puck for most of the series.

commonsense12
07-19-2011, 08:25 PM
Both Washington and NYR played pretty simple brand of hockey. Washington didn't even open up until we took the 3 goal lead in game 4.

If we had plenty of gritty players we wouldn't have gotten beaten down by Washington's dump and chase. That series was about fighting for the puck and we got killed.

Yeah this could be the worst analysis i have seen on a series ever. This is not how it went down at all. Go watch those games again.

hughest4
07-19-2011, 08:33 PM
Yeah this could be the worst analysis i have seen on a series ever. This is not how it went down at all. Go watch those games again.

Haha, exactly what i was just thinking.

commonsense12
07-19-2011, 08:41 PM
Hey, I'm all for adding a PPG scorer but it's not going to happen for 1.9 million. At least Sean fits on a third line unlike an MZA or Wolski. Torts likes to pair these guys up with grinders and they just can't complement each others style of play.

Our big competitors in the east (Boston, Pittsburgh, Washington) grind us out even with all these 'gritty players' that we supposedly have.

Washington mopped the floor with us. I really don't think an extra skill guy would have helped. They had control of the puck for most of the series.

Maybe you have a different defintion of a grinder because washington and pitts are not grinding teams.

Wash did beat us pretty bad but that was because of skill not toughness. We lost 2 of those games in OT so another skilled guy scoring a well timed goal could have made a huge difference. The other 2 games we lost by 2 goals so yeah again a skilled guy could have made a huge difference.

I really feel we watched a different series.

jetsfan89
07-19-2011, 09:09 PM
I can't believe you think Washington is a grinding team. I mean, really? Sure Ovechkin is physical. The thought of Alex Semin, Nicklas Backstrom, and Mike Green playing dump and chase hockey is hilarious. Partly because of how it would be a gross misuse of their abilities.

bsi
07-19-2011, 11:52 PM
Hey, I'm all for adding a PPG scorer but it's not going to happen for 1.9 million. At least Sean fits on a third line unlike an MZA or Wolski. Torts likes to pair these guys up with grinders and they just can't complement each others style of play.

Our big competitors in the east (Boston, Pittsburgh, Washington) grind us out even with all these 'gritty players' that we supposedly have.

Washington mopped the floor with us. I really don't think an extra skill guy would have helped. They had control of the puck for most of the series.

Semin, Backstrom, Ovechkin, Green, Alzner aren't what I'd call grind it out players, I really don't know what series you were watching. If what you say were true, which it isn't, then why would we keep Sean around if he didn't prevent the Caps from "mopping the floor with us"? Or should we go out and sign Steve Ott, Rafi Torres, and Matt Cooke to play against Ovechkin and Backstrom to bring us to the cup? This makes no sense whatsoever.

fingerbang
07-20-2011, 12:02 AM
Maybe you have a different defintion of a grinder because washington and pitts are not grinding teams.

Wash did beat us pretty bad but that was because of skill not toughness. We lost 2 of those games in OT so another skilled guy scoring a well timed goal could have made a huge difference. The other 2 games we lost by 2 goals so yeah again a skilled guy could have made a huge difference.

I really feel we watched a different series.

Pittsburgh has been a grinding team ever since Bylsma took over. That was the big change that was made when Therrien left. He preaches get the puck in deep. Even a guy like Crosby who's arguably the most skilled player in the league gets his hands dirty and does it really well. IMO their one of the best in the league at that.

Did Washington not simplify their style of play this time around? They dumped the puck in all series and outmuscled us.

fingerbang
07-20-2011, 12:09 AM
Semin, Backstrom, Ovechkin, Green, Alzner aren't what I'd call grind it out players, I really don't know what series you were watching. If what you say were true, which it isn't, then why would we keep Sean around if he didn't prevent the Caps from "mopping the floor with us"? Or should we go out and sign Steve Ott, Rafi Torres, and Matt Cooke to play against Ovechkin and Backstrom to bring us to the cup? This makes no sense whatsoever.

Hey, I'd take Steve Ott over Wolski or MZA. When I think of a 'skill' player I think of a Euro player that doesn't like to hit or backcheck (MZA, Frolov, Zherdev). Crosby, Ovechkin, Eric Staal etc.. those guys are the complete package and do it all. You're not going to get a guy who skilled and a hard worker/grinder for the price of Avery. Remember this conversation is all about what we lose by keeping Avery around (1.9 million).

fingerbang
07-20-2011, 12:22 AM
I can't believe you think Washington is a grinding team. I mean, really? Sure Ovechkin is physical. The thought of Alex Semin, Nicklas Backstrom, and Mike Green playing dump and chase hockey is hilarious. Partly because of how it would be a gross misuse of their abilities.

What about Arnott, Laich, Knuble, Chimera? Those guys all played pretty well in that series and they weren't using skill to beat us. Backstrom probably has the most skill on that team and I didn't see him do anything.

jetsfan89
07-20-2011, 12:27 AM
What about Arnott, Laich, Knuble, Chimera? Those guys all played pretty well in that series and they weren't using skill to beat us. Backstrom probably has the most skill on that team and I didn't see him do anything.

they're all bottom 6 players.

fingerbang
07-20-2011, 12:40 AM
they're all bottom 6 players.

In other words, their grinders player pretty well against us?

Isca92
07-20-2011, 12:49 AM
I think the agruement is based on opinions of players and how would you build your team. I'm interested to see what comes out of camp. IMO the signing of Eminger will be a good signing, as we saw last season he could sit out and then jump right in as the last defenseman. I personally see Eminger as the 7th guy unless all the d prospects come up short. The top 4 spots are given and one of the last 3 to Eminger (if hes signed). It would be stupid to have a rookie be the 7th d let play top minutes in their respective leagues.

There are several players all fighting for 2 spots and I don't believe that anyone is crossed out or pencilled in. Its arguable to say that even Sauer could be fighting one of those spots. While I think hes safe because hes a sound defenseman that brings the same thing shift in shift out and Torts knows what he can do for him but who knows who brings what.

Why has everyone written off Del Zotto? No one thinks that last year could have been a wake up call?

dashripdot
07-20-2011, 01:21 AM
I think the agruement is based on opinions of players and how would you build your team. I'm interested to see what comes out of camp. IMO the signing of Eminger will be a good signing, as we saw last season he could sit out and then jump right in as the last defenseman. I personally see Eminger as the 7th guy unless all the d prospects come up short. The top 4 spots are given and one of the last 3 to Eminger (if hes signed). It would be stupid to have a rookie be the 7th d let play top minutes in their respective leagues.

There are several players all fighting for 2 spots and I don't believe that anyone is crossed out or pencilled in. Its arguable to say that even Sauer could be fighting one of those spots. While I think hes safe because hes a sound defenseman that brings the same thing shift in shift out and Torts knows what he can do for him but who knows who brings what.

Why has everyone written off Del Zotto? No one thinks that last year could have been a wake up call?


No it's not. Sauer (and McD) would be top 4 on a lot of teams in the NHL, not just the Rangers.

MDZ has a shot to make the team out of camp, but it's unlikely. His injury and the time he missed down the stretch last year didn't help; he hadn't made any great strides before that happened, so he will have to make a great leap in maturity and style of play between then and now without having played in any meaningful competition before camp opens.

commonsense12
07-20-2011, 01:25 AM
Pittsburgh has been a grinding team ever since Bylsma took over. That was the big change that was made when Therrien left. He preaches get the puck in deep. Even a guy like Crosby who's arguably the most skilled player in the league gets his hands dirty and does it really well. IMO their one of the best in the league at that.

Did Washington not simplify their style of play this time around? They dumped the puck in all series and outmuscled us.

Are you seriously going to say crosby is a grinding player lol. Crosby does not get his hands dirty at all. I dont even know what you are looking at he is known in the league as a diver who avoids contact at all costs. With his concussion problem it is only going to get worse.

Again i dont think you watched the Wash series because they didnt out muscle us at all. They won on skill and skill alone.

fingerbang
07-20-2011, 01:32 AM
Are you seriously going to say crosby is a grinding player lol. Crosby does not get his hands dirty at all. I dont even know what you are looking at he is known in the league as a diver who avoids contact at all costs. With his concussion problem it is only going to get worse.

Again i dont think you watched the Wash series because they didnt out muscle us at all. They won on skill and skill alone.

Next time you watch Crosby play pay attention to how strong he is on the boards. He may not throw his body around a lot but he's a great backchecker and he's one of the best at fighting for a puck. This stuff stays out of the highlight reels but he does it really well.

commonsense12
07-20-2011, 01:32 AM
Hey, I'd take Steve Ott over Wolski or MZA. When I think of a 'skill' player I think of a Euro player that doesn't like to hit or backcheck (MZA, Frolov, Zherdev). Crosby, Ovechkin, Eric Staal etc.. those guys are the complete package and do it all. You're not going to get a guy who skilled and a hard worker/grinder for the price of Avery. Remember this conversation is all about what we lose by keeping Avery around (1.9 million).

So you would rather have Averys 3 goals over say 20 from a zherdev type player? Especially on a team where we already have a bunch of guys that can fill Averys shoes and we cant score?

BTW Prust was better then Avery last year and he makes 800k. Rupp had more goals and we just signed him for a less then what avery made. Boyle had a better year and he just signed for less then Avery. Thats 3 guys that are on this team that scored more then Avery.

commonsense12
07-20-2011, 01:35 AM
Next time you watch Crosby play pay attention to how strong he is on the boards. He may not throw his body around a lot but he's a great backchecker and he's one of the best at fighting for a puck. This stuff stays out of the highlight reels but he does it really well.

I watch Crosby all the time and he is not grinding along the boards. He gets the puck and uses his speed, puck control and vision to dominate teams. He does not battle along the boards that would just be stupid of him because teams would just keep taking shots at him.

fingerbang
07-20-2011, 01:40 AM
So you would rather have Averys 3 goals over say 20 from a zherdev type player? Especially on a team where we already have a bunch of guys that can fill Averys shoes and we cant score?

BTW Prust was better then Avery last year and he makes 800k. Rupp had more goals and we just signed him for a less then what avery made. Boyle had a better year and he just signed for less then Avery. Thats 3 guys that are on this team that scored more then Avery.

Well, you're comparing these guys to Avery's absolute worst goal scoring season of his career. Can we also compare passing ability too, because that's not even close?

Boyle and Prust have yet to hit free agency and therefore don't make as much as they will in the future. I really like Rupp but I don't see how he has nearly as much offensive skill as Avery.

Isca92
07-20-2011, 01:43 AM
I understand your thinking about Sauer as I agree he should be on the team, but lets remember his camp last year put him in. Theres Erixon, MDZ, Valentenko, Mcilrath, Pashnin, Kundratek, while I don't think 3 of them will beat out Sauer it is very well possible that they could. I threw Kundratek in cause others have talked about him possibly being the last guy but I don't see him beating out Sauer.

As for the rest of the list I an see 3 of those guys making the team. Valentenko was the last cut before Sauer, so he can make it. Erixon has alot talk about him making the team. Mcilrath and MDZ are coming off injuries but its not like they were serious injuries that they cant come back from. Pashnin was loved by the staff last year but wasn't able to try to make the team as he was property of his KHL club.

Again I assume Sauer will be on the team but I don't think hes as safe as everybody thinks.

fingerbang
07-20-2011, 01:45 AM
Just for ***** here's a video of Byslma talking to the team.

Bylsma: "Let's Grind These *****es Down" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpgKZc86G1w)

Isca92
07-20-2011, 01:55 AM
Fingerbang, you said the G-word, watch out for this word on this board. Last time I talked about players and grinding I got jumped all over.

commonsense12
07-20-2011, 01:57 AM
Well, you're comparing these guys to Avery's absolute worst goal scoring season of his career. Can we also compare passing ability too, because that's not even close?

Boyle and Prust have yet to hit free agency and therefore don't make as much as they will in the future. I really like Rupp but I don't see how he has nearly as much offensive skill as Avery.

Well you are using Wolski's worst season ever too, whats the difference?

Lets also add fighting ability because Rupp and Prust are better enforcers. How about being better locker room guys? Rupp and Prust are better teammates. They also dont cost their teams games because of stupid penalties like Avery has done numerous times in the past.

No matter how you cut it Avery was a waste last year. He played terrible and didnt even deserve the ice time he saw. Maybe he comes back this year and plays better but Averys numbers have been decling for yrs.

i can tell you are an Avery fan but lets be real on this team there are too many guys that do the same thing he does for less money. You can say they havent hit free agency or whatever but the reality is that we have them on our team. His role is being filled by players who are cheaper and who performed better then he did. I am sorry there is no way you replace them with Avery. The team has other needs it needs filled and Avery does not help with them.

fingerbang
07-20-2011, 02:12 AM
Well you are using Wolski's worst season ever too, whats the difference?

Lets also add fighting ability because Rupp and Prust are better enforcers. How about being better locker room guys? Rupp and Prust are better teammates. They also dont cost their teams games because of stupid penalties like Avery has done numerous times in the past.

No matter how you cut it Avery was a waste last year. He played terrible and didnt even deserve the ice time he saw. Maybe he comes back this year and plays better but Averys numbers have been decling for yrs.

i can tell you are an Avery fan but lets be real on this team there are too many guys that do the same thing he does for less money. You can say they havent hit free agency or whatever but the reality is that we have them on our team. His role is being filled by players who are cheaper and who performed better then he did. I am sorry there is no way you replace them with Avery. The team has other needs it needs filled and Avery does not help with them.

First off, there's still room in the bottom six for Avery. He hasn't taken anyone's spot.

Secondly, Avery did not get in the way of any of our RFA resigning.

Thirdly, the only way to replace Sean Avery would be through A) our system or B) free agency.

I already posted this but players that make Sean Avery money that also happened to be in free agency were guys like Talbot, Brunette, and Chris Higgins. You need to accept the fact that 2 million dollars doesn't get you very much and therefore we didn't have a whole lot of options to replace Avery with.

bsi
07-20-2011, 08:24 AM
Hey, I'd take Steve Ott over Wolski or MZA. When I think of a 'skill' player I think of a Euro player that doesn't like to hit or backcheck (MZA, Frolov, Zherdev). Crosby, Ovechkin, Eric Staal etc.. those guys are the complete package and do it all. You're not going to get a guy who skilled and a hard worker/grinder for the price of Avery. Remember this conversation is all about what we lose by keeping Avery around (1.9 million).

I don't know where you are going here? Do you want Steve Ott ,Sean Avery types or do you want skilled players like Crosby , Staal and Ovechkin, because none of those three guys are on any planet are considered grinders.

bsi
07-20-2011, 08:38 AM
First off, there's still room in the bottom six for Avery. He hasn't taken anyone's spot.

Secondly, Avery did not get in the way of any of our RFA resigning.

Thirdly, the only way to replace Sean Avery would be through A) our system or B) free agency.

I already posted this but players that make Sean Avery money that also happened to be in free agency were guys like Talbot, Brunette, and Chris Higgins. You need to accept the fact that 2 million dollars doesn't get you very much and therefore we didn't have a whole lot of options to replace Avery with.

Rupp just replaced Avery for a savings of about $400, 000, Brandon Prust does the same job and more for half the salary....it's really not hard to replace a 3rd or 4th liner. Heck if we're talking about 2 million dollar players I'd take Thomas Holmstrom, Chris Neil,Tyler Kennedy, Mike Knuble just to name a few forwards any day of the week over Avery. 2 million gets you something, it gets you more than a well dressed guy in the team box seat.

dashripdot
07-20-2011, 08:55 AM
Hey, I'm all for adding a PPG scorer but it's not going to happen for 1.9 million. At least Sean fits on a third line unlike an MZA or Wolski. Torts likes to pair these guys up with grinders and they just can't complement each others style of play.

Our big competitors in the east (Boston, Pittsburgh, Washington) grind us out even with all these 'gritty players' that we supposedly have.

Washington mopped the floor with us. I really don't think an extra skill guy would have helped. They had control of the puck for most of the series.

Rangers took the regular season series from each of these teams (3-1 over Washington and Boston and 4-1 over Pittsburgh). As for the playoff series with Washington, if the Rangers finish on any two of the several good chances in front of the net that they had in those losses they likely go on to to the next round. Rangers have enough grinders. Time to bring in the scorers.

Redfish
07-20-2011, 11:21 AM
First off, there's still room in the bottom six for Avery. He hasn't taken anyone's spot.

Secondly, Avery did not get in the way of any of our RFA resigning.

Thirdly, the only way to replace Sean Avery would be through A) our system or B) free agency.

I already posted this but players that make Sean Avery money that also happened to be in free agency were guys like Talbot, Brunette, and Chris Higgins. You need to accept the fact that 2 million dollars doesn't get you very much and therefore we didn't have a whole lot of options to replace Avery with.

Is there? I am not so sure.

We have 10 forwards with essentially guaranteed spots: Richards, Gaborik, Fedotenko, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Callahan, Stepan, Boyle, Prust, Rupp.

It comes down to Wolski, Avery, MZA and Christenson for thefinal 2-3 spots. Hagelin may also prove during training camp he deserves to be in the mix, but let's leave him out for now.

The question is, which 2-3 players best enhance the club, given the mix of skills of the initial 10 forwards?

It seems to me this team needs more skill over more body banging. That places Wolski and MZA on the inside track, and that is who I believe rounds out the roster, as wingers for Stepan.

Don't underestimate the signing of Rupp. He was specifically targeted by Sather and Tortorella during off-season meetings, and he essentially replaces the roles previously reserved for both Boogard and Avery.

If there is room for Avery in the bottom six, it is a thread of room; that's it.

On a side note, when you step back and evaluate MZA's initial season in North America, I think the conclusion has to be it was a big success. He stumbled along the way, but overall it was a success, given the new league, larger ice adjustments dictated to his game, and the big stage of playing for the Rangers who were in a fight for a playoff spot. Look for MZA to have a strong season.

fingerbang
07-20-2011, 01:15 PM
Is there? I am not so sure.

We have 10 forwards with essentially guaranteed spots: Richards, Gaborik, Fedotenko, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Callahan, Stepan, Boyle, Prust, Rupp.

It comes down to Wolski, Avery, MZA and Christenson for thefinal 2-3 spots. Hagelin may also prove during training camp he deserves to be in the mix, but let's leave him out for now.

The question is, which 2-3 players best enhance the club, given the mix of skills of the initial 10 forwards?

It seems to me this team needs more skill over more body banging. That places Wolski and MZA on the inside track, and that is who I believe rounds out the roster, as wingers for Stepan.

Don't underestimate the signing of Rupp. He was specifically targeted by Sather and Tortorella during off-season meetings, and he essentially replaces the roles previously reserved for both Boogard and Avery.

If there is room for Avery in the bottom six, it is a thread of room; that's it.

On a side note, when you step back and evaluate MZA's initial season in North America, I think the conclusion has to be it was a big success. He stumbled along the way, but overall it was a success, given the new league, larger ice adjustments dictated to his game, and the big stage of playing for the Rangers who were in a fight for a playoff spot. Look for MZA to have a strong season.


Well, I'll take Avery over Christensen and MZA any day of the week.

MZA and Christensen are offensive minded players that don't exactly produce a whole lot of offense. Complete waste on the bottom 6 IMO.

I wasn't that impressed MZA. For a guys who's 5'5" he really doesn't skate as well as I thought he would.

fingerbang
07-20-2011, 01:20 PM
Rangers took the regular season series from each of these teams (3-1 over Washington and Boston and 4-1 over Pittsburgh). As for the playoff series with Washington, if the Rangers finish on any two of the several good chances in front of the net that they had in those losses they likely go on to to the next round. Rangers have enough grinders. Time to bring in the scorers.

You guys make it sound like I want Sean Avery over Steve Stamkos. For 1.9 million who we bringing in?

If you really want to ***** about a contract start talking about Wolski!!!!!

3.8 millions a lot of money. Now we're talking about opening up some serious cash to make room for a trade. I'm all for bringing in scoring but I'm not a ****** and I understand that you can't make that kind of room by getting rid of Sean Avery.

commonsense12
07-20-2011, 01:30 PM
Well, I'll take Avery over Christensen and MZA any day of the week.

MZA and Christensen are offensive minded players that don't exactly produce a whole lot of offense. Complete waste on the bottom 6 IMO.

I wasn't that impressed MZA. For a guys who's 5'5" he really doesn't skate as well as I thought he would.

You are way too high on Avery and are not really looking at the facts. MZA put up almost as many points in almost half the games that Avery played. Christ put up more points in less games and had 11 goals to Averys 3. Plus both of them helped win games in shootouts. Avery was invisible on offense last year and was so inconsistent it was mind boggling. Add that to the fact he takes so many dumb penalties and what do you have? We shall find out once camp starts.

We understand you like Avery but he is not the player you make him out to be. He once was but he hasnt been that player in a few yrs now. You really are just basing this whole conversation on the fact that you like Avery and not the fact that this is a team sport. There are other guys who are better for this team then him, thats just reality.

commonsense12
07-20-2011, 01:34 PM
You guys make it sound like I want Sean Avery over Steve Stamkos. For 1.9 million who we bringing in?

If you really want to ***** about a contract start talking about Wolski!!!!!

3.8 millions a lot of money. Now we're talking about opening up some serious cash to make room for a trade. I'm all for bringing in scoring but I'm not a ****** and I understand that you can't make that kind of room by getting rid of Sean Avery.

If Wolski puts up 60 points 3.8 mill is great for us. You keep saying 1.9 is not much but its wasted money. Avery is not really giving us anything that we dont have in excess of already. If we traded him in the beginning of the season we could bring in a guy making almost 4 mill halfway through the season. That could be a huge trade that puts us in cup contention. You never really know what that money could be used for.

Again we all realize you like Avery but he isnt that player that you make him out to be anymore he just isnt.

fingerbang
07-20-2011, 01:34 PM
You are way too high on Avery and are not really looking at the facts. MZA put up almost as many points in almost half the games that Avery played. Christ put up more points in less games and had 11 goals to Averys 3. Plus both of them helped win games in shootouts. Avery was invisible on offense last year and was so inconsistent it was mind boggling. Add that to the fact he takes so many dumb penalties and what do you have? We shall find out once camp starts.

We understand you like Avery but he is not the player you make him out to be. He once was but he hasnt been that player in a few yrs now. You really are just basing this whole conversation on the fact that you like Avery and not the fact that this is a team sport. There are other guys who are better for this team then him, thats just reality.


And I understand that you, like most others on PSD, rank players based on points.

fingerbang
07-20-2011, 01:38 PM
Every team in the league could have a 3rd/4th line full of little European skill players if they wanted to. It doesn't work that way. It's not all about points, especially when the playoffs start.

ElementCo27
07-20-2011, 06:27 PM
Every team in the league could have a 3rd/4th line full of little European skill players if they wanted to. It doesn't work that way. It's not all about points, especially when the playoffs start.

In a world where Avery is playing his best night in and night out, sure, he's more than worth the 1.9 he's getting from just the Rangers. We don't need european players on our 3rd/4th lines, but we are going to use what we have. Like Redfish said, it's what we have left that's going to fill up those spots. It's not who we can get. Placing guys like Zuccarello and Christensen on the third line is fine. I feel like Tortorella's purpose for that line is to switch in and out players to experiment lines with new players and such. We have a solid 1st, 2nd, and 4th line and I don't mind seeing a flexible 3rd line too adjust to bring a different presence every game. We don't need two scoring lines and 2 checking lines. That fourth line we'll have will pack a REALLY powerful punch with 3 tough guys surrounding it that can, surprisingly for a 4th line, score. That 3rd line will be the line that teams will possibly have trouble with just because of its flexibility, who knows? But to make that line exceptional, it needs to have hard working players who will do anything to be on the team. Avery could be that type of player if he can bring his game almost every night, if not every single one. Avery absolutely has the ability to be a skilled player with the shot he has and the ability to go in for the puck, but I'm not going to play someone who isn't going to do that every night, I'm sorry.

dashripdot
07-20-2011, 06:47 PM
Every team in the league could have a 3rd/4th line full of little European skill players if they wanted to. It doesn't work that way. It's not all about points, especially when the playoffs start.

What exactly is Avery's role if not an instigator? Since he's no longer effective at that, most of his hockey skill lies in his skating speed. In truth, he is no grinder. He's not even very strong on his skates along the boards, although he tries. He throws checks but, more often than not, he's the one who bounces off and winds up on his can. Last year he began trying to set up plays from behind the net, but was only marginally successful at it. He's outlived his usefulness to this team.

commonsense12
07-21-2011, 11:22 AM
And I understand that you, like most others on PSD, rank players based on points.

No your wrong i look at team needs and this team needs goals not an extra forward who cant score and who wont be seeing that much time like Avery.

So you want a team full of Avery's? That will net you a grand total of 36 goals for your forwards congrats.

Redfish
07-22-2011, 09:54 AM
Right now, this team has very good and even balance between "body bangers" and "scorers." Thanks to Dubinsky and Callahan especially, which produce above average in both roles.

Not to beat a dead horse, but it is this very even balance which brings into question whether Avery has a role with this team. Do you go with one more body banger, or add some skill into the lineup with either MZA or Christenson.

Tortorella may simply let things play out and see who emerges to make this decision an easy one for him; or he may have answered this question already in his mind. As is clear with my prior posts, I think he will opt for more skill; simply because this has been a primary unmet need in recent seasons. And MZA, by far, brings the most skill amongst the three.

Look for MZA to benefit greatly from last year's experience and have a very solid season.

commonsense12
07-22-2011, 10:19 AM
Right now, this team has very good and even balance between "body bangers" and "scorers." Thanks to Dubinsky and Callahan especially, which produce above average in both roles.

Not to beat a dead horse, but it is this very even balance which brings into question whether Avery has a role with this team. Do you go with one more body banger, or add some skill into the lineup with either MZA or Christenson.

Tortorella may simply let things play out and see who emerges to make this decision an easy one for him; or he may have answered this question already in his mind. As is clear with my prior posts, I think he will opt for more skill; simply because this has been a primary unmet need in recent seasons. And MZA, by far, brings the most skill amongst the three.

Look for MZA to benefit greatly from last year's experience and have a very solid season.

Like i said in the other thread if we can trade AVery for anything of use i think we do it but it has to be after mid august i believe. If not MZA could be moved to the whale because he doesnt need to pass through waivers.

NECKLOCK
07-22-2011, 11:51 PM
I don't get whether it's ignorance or some people in this forum take things about Avery so personally that you would think they are paying his salary. The changing of topic over and over again even after people try and put the forum back on track is just childish and absurd. This site use to be a great place to discuss and debate hockey but the fact that some can't stay on topic takes all the fun out of this. The biggest laugher is those that think that watching the sport for 30yrs or so means you know anything about the sport but the opinions posted by those show they have never have competed at such a sport so you should just ignore the "Arm chair quarterbacks" opinions. Maybe this forum should just be deleted and start a new one if we want to discuss our D core. Maybe the bitter Avery haters in here are really Dion Phaneuf under multiple screen names/ I can't believe all the pages of banter repeated over and over. Lets get some quality hockey talk started.

Redfish
07-23-2011, 09:30 AM
I don't get whether it's ignorance or some people in this forum take things about Avery so personally that you would think they are paying his salary. The changing of topic over and over again even after people try and put the forum back on track is just childish and absurd. This site use to be a great place to discuss and debate hockey but the fact that some can't stay on topic takes all the fun out of this. The biggest laugher is those that think that watching the sport for 30yrs or so means you know anything about the sport but the opinions posted by those show they have never have competed at such a sport so you should just ignore the "Arm chair quarterbacks" opinions. Maybe this forum should just be deleted and start a new one if we want to discuss our D core. Maybe the bitter Avery haters in here are really Dion Phaneuf under multiple screen names/ I can't believe all the pages of banter repeated over and over. Lets get some quality hockey talk started.

The Avery dialogue took a life of its own. No harm, no foul. You need to relax. All of the dialogue, from all who contributed, was respectful of others' views and opinions. Yours was the first post using strong terms such as childish, ignorance, absurd, laugher, etc.... Since I posted I've been watching hockey for over 30 years, I presume you were referring to me. If you represented things accurately, you would have pointed out that I answered a question from another post who wanted to know how long I was watching the Rangers. And I prefaced my reply with "for what it is worth" which means I don't think it means a great deal. However, you chose to misrepresent this.

You make a good point about this being a topic regarding our defense, so I apologize if I contributed to some non-topical dialogue which offended you.

Other than that, you should temper your anger and frustration, or bring it elsewhere if that is your notion of "fun".

commonsense12
07-23-2011, 10:52 AM
I don't get whether it's ignorance or some people in this forum take things about Avery so personally that you would think they are paying his salary. The changing of topic over and over again even after people try and put the forum back on track is just childish and absurd. This site use to be a great place to discuss and debate hockey but the fact that some can't stay on topic takes all the fun out of this. The biggest laugher is those that think that watching the sport for 30yrs or so means you know anything about the sport but the opinions posted by those show they have never have competed at such a sport so you should just ignore the "Arm chair quarterbacks" opinions. Maybe this forum should just be deleted and start a new one if we want to discuss our D core. Maybe the bitter Avery haters in here are really Dion Phaneuf under multiple screen names/ I can't believe all the pages of banter repeated over and over. Lets get some quality hockey talk started.

The only ignorant and childish post is this one. No need to come on here and insult people if you dont like it go somewhere else or simply dont read it.

nyr1980
07-23-2011, 03:47 PM
Who hates Avery? I don't think it's a question of that, it's just there are 10 forwards on this team right now who warrant more ice time than Avery does, and that's where it both starts and ends IMO.

Can we talk about the Defense in here please?

Redfish
07-23-2011, 11:02 PM
Let's assume, for discussion purposes, Del Zotto starts the season with the Whale.

Who them becomes our 6th defenseman? Based on press reports only, a great deal of positive commentary seems to suggest it would be Valentenko. However, I've never seen one Whale game, and I recall a late season article last year which actually suggested Kundratek had risen to #1 on the defensive depth chart; so, I really have no clue.

Does anyone have insight into how our Whale defenseman played last season and who stands a good chance at competing for a spot with the Rangers this year?

bsi
07-24-2011, 10:14 AM
Let's assume, for discussion purposes, Del Zotto starts the season with the Whale.

Who them becomes our 6th defenseman? Based on press reports only, a great deal of positive commentary seems to suggest it would be Valentenko. However, I've never seen one Whale game, and I recall a late season article last year which actually suggested Kundratek had risen to #1 on the defensive depth chart; so, I really have no clue.

Does anyone have insight into how our Whale defenseman played last season and who stands a good chance at competing for a spot with the Rangers this year?

Just wondering if you were including Pashnin in this 5?

Redfish
07-24-2011, 06:09 PM
Just wondering if you were including Pashnin in this 5?

Oh, I guess that would help. I am assuming the 5th defenseman is Erixon.

dashripdot
07-25-2011, 08:05 AM
So the Rangers are looking at Erixon, MDZ, Valentenko, Kundratek and Pashnin to fill the 5 and 6 spots (because they presently don't have the cap room to get a 5 or 6 through UFA, and McIlrath is at least another year away) and we're assuming Eminger (or someone like him) will be back as a 7th. Should be an interesting competition in camp.

commonsense12
07-25-2011, 11:31 AM
So the Rangers are looking at Erixon, MDZ, Valentenko, Kundratek and Pashnin to fill the 5 and 6 spots (because they presently don't have the cap room to get a 5 or 6 through UFA, and McIlrath is at least another year away) and we're assuming Eminger (or someone like him) will be back as a 7th. Should be an interesting competition in camp.

Personally i dont mind 2 rookies making up our 3rd d-line pairing. I think that the edge is going to go to Erixon and Valentenko or Erixon and MDZ. After watching last years preseason games i really liked what valentenko has to offer. MDZ could vastly improve our PP but he was so bad in our zone so many times. Its still going to be very interesting and i cant wait for hockey season.

dashripdot
07-25-2011, 12:22 PM
Eminger re-signed, reportedly at $800k. If accurate it's a steal for the Rangers. A 7th d-man who was third on the team in blocked shots last season.

ElementCo27
07-28-2011, 02:55 PM
This is just a big WHAT IF, so do not take it seriously at all haha.

What if the Predators and Weber don't come to terms on a contract? And what if the team doesn't want his contract that he's awarded? Do you think Glenny boy would be able to pull some rabbits outta hats for him? Maybe send out McIlrath who is supposedly a similar style player to Weber? Or bundle together some other players? Just a thought however. I think Shea Weber would be the exact defenseman we are looking for. Also, he would look great in broadway blue haha.

Gimme your thoughts.

commonsense12
07-28-2011, 06:26 PM
This is just a big WHAT IF, so do not take it seriously at all haha.

What if the Predators and Weber don't come to terms on a contract? And what if the team doesn't want his contract that he's awarded? Do you think Glenny boy would be able to pull some rabbits outta hats for him? Maybe send out McIlrath who is supposedly a similar style player to Weber? Or bundle together some other players? Just a thought however. I think Shea Weber would be the exact defenseman we are looking for. Also, he would look great in broadway blue haha.

Gimme your thoughts.

Oh of course if we can land weber you do it. Problem is what does it cost and what kind of contract do you give him?

MentalHockey
07-28-2011, 06:29 PM
Oh of course if we can land weber you do it. Problem is what does it cost and what kind of contract do you give him?

We'd have to shed contracts to give him the deal he would be looking for so I'd say Wolski, Girardi and a prospect/pick or two.

QUBobcats550
07-28-2011, 07:20 PM
We'd have to shed contracts to give him the deal he would be looking for so I'd say Wolski, Girardi and a prospect/pick or two.

That sounds about right. Weber is a monster who contributes at both ends of the ice. He'd be a perfect fit for us, but it's certainly a long shot.

ElementCo27
07-28-2011, 10:56 PM
That sounds about right. Weber is a monster who contributes at both ends of the ice. He'd be a perfect fit for us, but it's certainly a long shot.

Yeah it's definitely a long shot, but if all the pieces fall perfectly we could potentially get him if Nashville is going to stiff him. I would love to have Weber on this team. The Rangers would definitely go places haha.

Isca92
07-29-2011, 01:23 AM
I would love to see Weber but IF Nashville would accept the contract and deal him the players going would not be Girardi and Wolski. It would start with Staal; have to remember almost every team would be making offers.

Redfish
07-29-2011, 10:21 AM
Brett Burns and Ryan Suter are both UFAs at the end of this season. As much as I would love a guy like Shea Weber, who can carry the right team to Stanley Cup victory, I prefer the UFA route with a more than acceptable 2nd-choice type alternative, such as Burns and Suter. Otherwise, we have to lose some existing core, young players that the organization has invested in.

nyr1980
07-30-2011, 11:50 AM
Weber is probably not an option as a UFA next summer. The indication is still that he'll sign a long-term deal before his arb hearing this coming Tuesday.

But depending on what happens with the younger defensemen this season, Suter and Burns certainly could deserve a look if they are available next summer.

Redfish
08-30-2011, 09:48 AM
Interesting article regarding the waiver status of Del Zotto, and how it could raise the bar in terms of him starting the season with the Rangers.

http://www.blueseatblogs.com/

I always thought it was best for MDZ to start the year off in CT until it was painfully obvious he was ready; but this waiver status issue makes things a bit more complex.

jetsfan89
08-30-2011, 11:42 AM
Shouldn't change anything. MDZ will have to earn his way in camp. If he's not ready, he'll be in the AHL. Everyone penciled in McDonagh to start the season and it turned out he needed more time.

TFleury14
08-31-2011, 10:33 AM
Agreed, I think MDZ will basically go the same route as McDonagh. He will most likely start the season in the AHL to work on his defensive fundamentals. If he improves on those key fundamentals which he lacks I can see him coming up sometime in the first couple of months