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Mile High Champ
07-03-2011, 03:38 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 3 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best

2011 SG Rankings

1) Dwyane Wade
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Manu Ginobili
4) Joe Johnson
5) Monta Ellis
6) Kevin Martin
7) Ray Allen
8) Eric Gordon
9)
10)



2010 Off-Season SG Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Manu Ginobili
6) Monta Ellis
7) Ray Allen
8) Stephen Jackson
9) O.J. Mayo
10) Jason Richardson

2009 Off-Season SG Rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Vince Carter
6) Manu Ginobili
7) Ray Allen
8) Kevin Martin
9) Ben Gordon
10) Richard Hamilton

2008 Off-Season SG rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Tracy McGrady
4) Allen Iverson
5) Manu Ginobili
5) Vince Carter
7) Joe Johnson
8) Ray Allen
9) Brandon Roy
10) Kevin Martin

Mile High Champ
07-03-2011, 03:40 PM
New poll is up, sorry for the delay. Long weekend has been crazy busy! Enjoy!

LTBaByyy
07-03-2011, 03:47 PM
This has Jason Terry ALL OVER IT!!!!

Especially last season, playoffs, and finals :clap:

Lake_Show2416
07-03-2011, 03:50 PM
Stephen Jackson

Chacarron
07-03-2011, 03:52 PM
James Harden.

LTBaByyy
07-03-2011, 03:58 PM
If we are talking about RIGHT NOW, this is Jason Terry

especially after the playoffs/finals

Sadds The Gr8
07-03-2011, 04:08 PM
The JET

CHANGO
07-03-2011, 04:12 PM
Jason Terry

SportsFanatic10
07-03-2011, 04:16 PM
i'm torn between terry/harden/crawford. went with harden because i love his versatility but nothing wrong with picking terry and i think crawford is starting to get disrespected at this point as well.

WorldWideJames
07-03-2011, 04:20 PM
I don't believe that Jason Terry is a better player than Tyreke Evans or Jamal Crawford, he's just in a better situation and in a more advanced point in his career (in terms of skills developed from repetition i.e. jump shooting).

Unfortunately, there's no way to separate or distinguish between situations in terms of current greatness. Give me 2011 Dallas Mavericks Jason Terry over anyone else on the list.

FriedTofuz
07-03-2011, 04:27 PM
Its between Jason Terry and Stephen Jackson. They both have rings.

LTBaByyy
07-03-2011, 04:27 PM
I think people forgot how great Jason Terry played in the year 2011

and def how he played in the playoffs and finals!!!!! They need to go watch the playoffs again

JerseysFinest
07-03-2011, 04:29 PM
Stephen Jackson.

LTBaByyy
07-03-2011, 04:31 PM
The #2 option on the NBA Championship team!!!!

Give him some credit

SportsFanatic10
07-03-2011, 04:32 PM
Its between Jason Terry and Stephen Jackson. They both have rings.

lol i love how laker fans always seem to think rings(team achievements) define how good you are as a player individually.

Avenged
07-03-2011, 04:34 PM
Stephen Jackson does not belong in the top 10 SGs in my opinion.

Going Harden here.

Ebbs
07-03-2011, 04:36 PM
I think it's between Terry and Tyreke. Terry has been better longer though and is coming off a strong playoff performance and Tyreke was hurt alot of last year and played below potential. So Terry should IMO get the nod here.

LTBaByyy
07-03-2011, 04:41 PM
Stephen Jackson, Nick Young, Jason Richardson, and Harden (1 amazing playoff series) deserving votes :facepalm:

Shaolin718
07-03-2011, 04:43 PM
JR Smith

barreleffact
07-03-2011, 04:45 PM
So Nick Young can be an option, but Tony Allen Can't?

Sadds The Gr8
07-03-2011, 04:52 PM
Tyreke Evans is getting votes? did people watch him this year or are they looking at his rookie numbers and assuming he was good this year?

Even though he was injured, he was terrible, and should not be in the top 10

MiamiWadeCounty
07-03-2011, 04:52 PM
Tyreke Evans :p.

LTBaByyy
07-03-2011, 04:57 PM
Hahaha okay people wanna have fun with this vote

Call me when the SF votes start, I am just happy Jason Terry and the Mavs are champions!!!

ReedBoshMarleau
07-03-2011, 05:03 PM
Its between Jason Terry and Stephen Jackson. They both have rings.

Robert Horry best SF evarrrr, I mean, he has more rings then Mike... smh

NYKnicksAllDay
07-03-2011, 05:18 PM
Had to go with 210Don's favorite.. Captain Jack.

John Walls Era
07-03-2011, 05:58 PM
Reke sucked this year

Demon11
07-03-2011, 05:59 PM
Tyreke Evans is getting votes? did people watch him this year or are they looking at his rookie numbers and assuming he was good this year?

Even though he was injured, he was terrible, and should not be in the top 10

How exactly was he terrible?
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3983/tyreke-evans
He improved his 3 point shooting, mid range game, and freethrow shooting.

His field goal percentage dropped to 40%, which is attributed to his ankle and foot hurt all year, which is vital to him getting his points at the rim.

He actually improved last year, in all aspects of the game. So how is he terrible?

MJ-BULLS
07-03-2011, 06:46 PM
Im going with James Harden.

GoPacers33
07-03-2011, 07:06 PM
jamal c

blastmasta26
07-03-2011, 08:00 PM
How exactly was he terrible?
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3983/tyreke-evans
He improved his 3 point shooting, mid range game, and freethrow shooting.

His field goal percentage dropped to 40%, which is attributed to his ankle and foot hurt all year, which is vital to him getting his points at the rim.

He actually improved last year, in all aspects of the game. So how is he terrible?

Not that per game stats mean much, but 40% is terrible, so there's your answer. But if you wanna go deeper, look at his advanced stats here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/evansty01.html).

A decrease across the board. He dropped in PER, true shooting, effective field goal, o rating, win shares, you name it.

EDIT: I'm going for Harden here. He was more efficient than Terry in the regular season and playoffs. Terry was big in the playoffs so that makes it close, but I'd take Harden.

knightstemplar
07-03-2011, 08:34 PM
jason terry, he outplayed lebron in the finals

Catfish1314
07-03-2011, 08:34 PM
Not that per game stats mean much, but 40% is terrible, so there's your answer. But if you wanna go deeper, look at his advanced stats here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/evansty01.html).

A decrease across the board. He dropped in PER, true shooting, effective field goal, o rating, win shares, you name it.

EDIT: I'm going for Harden here. He was more efficient than Terry in the regular season and playoffs. Terry was big in the playoffs so that makes it close, but I'd take Harden.

He played every game in 2010-2011 with plantar fasciitis. Most players make a soap opera out of walking with such a condition. Granted, plantar fasciitis isn't like a broken bone. When you play with it, there's not a huge risk of causing worse/permanent damage. But it's still painful as hell to play with. It destroys any degree of explosiveness you have. So of course his stats dropped.

That's not to say there are no flawed aspects of Tyreke's game. He has a lot to improve on. But he's clearly the best guard left on this list and he doesn't even have a jumpshot.

TrueFan420
07-03-2011, 08:44 PM
That's not to say there are no flawed aspects of Tyreke's game. He has a lot to improve on. But he's clearly the best guard left on this list and he doesn't even have a jumpshot.

that sums it up right there you said guard. id agree that tyreke is the best player left on the list but the problem is i and im sure others dont see him as a sg. he is a combo guard. not a pg but not a sg.

Catfish1314
07-03-2011, 08:52 PM
that sums it up right there you said guard. id agree that tyreke is the best player left on the list but the problem is i and im sure others dont see him as a sg. he is a combo guard. not a pg but not a sg.

I agree. He is a guard. But he wasn't on the point guard list and he is on this list. That's why I voted for him here.

I can definitely understand why people would choose Terry.

BkOriginalOne
07-03-2011, 09:03 PM
I would've put Evans, but after that disastrous sophomore season and Terry's Finals play.
I have to go with the Jet plane.

Htownballa1622
07-03-2011, 09:34 PM
jason terry, he outplayed lebron in the finals

Thats the criteria? outplaying lebron?

Id take harden

TheRunKiller
07-03-2011, 09:37 PM
lol at tyreke evans having more votes than james harden

Sadds The Gr8
07-03-2011, 09:39 PM
He played every game in 2010-2011 with plantar fasciitis. Most players make a soap opera out of walking with such a condition. Granted, plantar fasciitis isn't like a broken bone. When you play with it, there's not a huge risk of causing worse/permanent damage. But it's still painful as hell to play with. It destroys any degree of explosiveness you have. So of course his stats dropped.

That's not to say there are no flawed aspects of Tyreke's game. He has a lot to improve on. But he's clearly the best guard left on this list and he doesn't even have a jumpshot.

you're just basing that off of his rookie season. Tyreke was injured but it doesn't hide the fact that he was terrible this season. If Brandon Roy gets penalized on this list for being injured and not being able to play at his full potential then Tyreke should.

CHANGO
07-03-2011, 09:44 PM
WOW... Terry is so underrated. Tyreke has more votes than him... Laughter.

Jason Terry in regular season - 15.8ppg, 4.1apg, 1.9rpg, .451fg% in 31.3 minutes per game.
Tyreke Evans in regular season - 17.8ppg, 5.6apg, 4.8rpg, .409fg% in 37.0 minutes per game.

The fact is that Jason Terry played in the playoffs while Tyreke didn't. And Jason Terry was the second best player on the champion team, and not only that look at his stats.

Which is better?
17.5ppg, 3.2apg, 1.9rpg, .478fg%, 32.6mpg in playoffs.
17.8ppg, .409fg% and 37mpg in regular season.

unwantedplayer
07-03-2011, 09:51 PM
Harden's beard was the tie-breaker.

blastmasta26
07-03-2011, 09:58 PM
He played every game in 2010-2011 with plantar fasciitis. Most players make a soap opera out of walking with such a condition. Granted, plantar fasciitis isn't like a broken bone. When you play with it, there's not a huge risk of causing worse/permanent damage. But it's still painful as hell to play with. It destroys any degree of explosiveness you have. So of course his stats dropped.

That's not to say there are no flawed aspects of Tyreke's game. He has a lot to improve on. But he's clearly the best guard left on this list and he doesn't even have a jumpshot.
These rankings are based off of the performance of last season, not years prior. Yes, Tyreke has the most potential out of the rest of the list and had a great rookie season, but that has no bearing on these rankings. I know he was slowed down by injury, but that's irrelevant in a simple ranking like this. All that matters is how he performed. I'm sure Reke will be higher in next year's rankings, but based on the criteria, he shouldn't be in the top 10 over Harden and Terry.

Knicks21
07-03-2011, 10:08 PM
DeRozan, guy is very underrated.

jimbobjarree
07-03-2011, 10:22 PM
wesley matthews my baby

Chacarron
07-03-2011, 10:49 PM
Hahaha okay people wanna have fun with this vote

Call me when the SF votes start, I am just happy Jason Terry and the Mavs are champions!!!

Is Baby in your user name because you like to cry so much?

NYKnicksAllDay
07-03-2011, 11:20 PM
How is Tyreke winning this?

TrueFan420
07-03-2011, 11:33 PM
How is Tyreke winning this?

i was thinking the same thing it should be harden but he is in 3rd

roshan3ai
07-04-2011, 12:16 AM
I think people forgot how great Jason Terry played in the year 2011

and def how he played in the playoffs and finals!!!!! They need to go watch the playoffs again

I think you need to realize that Harden had a kick *** playoffs too. He had 2.2 WS (2nd on the Team behind KD), had an absurd 63% TS%, 56% EFG%, 126 ORTG, 19 PER, 19% AST%. He had a great playoffs. In fact in the playoffs, Harden had a better TS%, WS/48, EFG%, AST%, TRB%, and ORTG. Terry did have a great post season but so did Harden.

TheRunKiller
07-04-2011, 01:02 AM
What has Tyreke Evans done this season for people to think he's better than James Harden? 1 thing let me hear it...this is going to be good.

GREATNESS ONE
07-04-2011, 01:05 AM
What has Tyreke Evans done this season for people to think he's better than James Harden? 1 thing let me hear it...this is going to be good.

To be honest I voted Tyreke but I have Harden right behind him at 10. I love both these guards and they're interchangeable for me at 9/10.

Swashcuff
07-04-2011, 01:06 AM
I can't believe that after the very compelling argument which no one could even attempt to refute that I gave in the last thread Tony Allen is still not an option.

sf-fanatic
07-04-2011, 01:34 AM
I wish I could change my vote from Stephen Jackson to Jason Terry.

LTBaByyy
07-04-2011, 01:36 AM
Jason Terry needs more love, especially if we are doing these rankings for how we see them RIGHT NOW.

Coming off that playoffs/performance should bump him up

Baller1
07-04-2011, 02:04 AM
Can't believe Harden has fallen this far, and still might not win here. Ridiculous.

M.Bibby2.0
07-04-2011, 02:16 AM
Who you vote for is based on your own criteria for player rankings. Yes, statistically Evans had an off year, but I still think that he has a more vast skill set than the remaining players, and is more talented. Other than shooting the ball I'm not sure what Jason Terry does better than Evans. "second best player on championship team" means nothing, we're comparing individuals; a championship is a team accomplishment and there's not much separating JET from Kidd, JJ barea, Tyson chandler, etc in terms of their impact.
I voted Tryeke because he is a 6'6, 220lb and is arguably the best in the league at getting to the rim (lead the league as a ROOKIE in FGA at the rim). Even this year with Plantar Faciitis impeding his ability to push off his leg and explode during a drive he was top 8 or something in FGA at the rim.
Those were my honest criteria, not just being a homer here, truly think he's most talented in terms of skill set and the impact he has on both ends of the floor. (Though i wouldn't say Harden is far behind).

GREATNESS ONE
07-04-2011, 03:01 AM
Who you vote for is based on your own criteria for player rankings. Yes, statistically Evans had an off year, but I still think that he has a more vast skill set than the remaining players, and is more talented. Other than shooting the ball I'm not sure what Jason Terry does better than Evans. "second best player on championship team" means nothing, we're comparing individuals; a championship is a team accomplishment and there's not much separating JET from Kidd, JJ barea, Tyson chandler, etc in terms of their impact.
I voted Tryeke because he is a 6'6, 220lb and is arguably the best in the league at getting to the rim (lead the league as a ROOKIE in FGA at the rim). Even this year with Plantar Faciitis impeding his ability to push off his leg and explode during a drive he was top 8 or something in FGA at the rim.
Those were my honest criteria, not just being a homer here, truly think he's most talented in terms of skill set and the impact he has on both ends of the floor. (Though i wouldn't say Harden is far behind).

Excellent post. :clap:

Swashcuff
07-04-2011, 08:23 AM
Can't believe Harden has fallen this far, and still might not win here. Ridiculous.

What does James Harden do better than any one of the guys who was voted ahead of him. There's NO way he makes the top 8. You highly overrate him.

John Walls Era
07-04-2011, 10:18 AM
I could see Harden here. Tyreke is a huge no. He played PG last year, started to play more SG this year and didn't perform up to standards (he was injured though).

Sadds The Gr8
07-04-2011, 10:36 AM
Harden is efficient but he doesn't get enough touches...he doesn't have the impact on games that the people above him has. that's why he's fallen. i don't think he should be in the top 10 but if he plays like he did in the playoffs next season, or maybe if he starts, he'll be in the top 10.

cubbybear2290
07-04-2011, 11:30 AM
Went with JET, he was coldblooded in the playoffs, and he's a real nice option at the 2 guard.

Greet
07-04-2011, 01:17 PM
I can't believe that after the very compelling argument which no one could even attempt to refute that I gave in the last thread Tony Allen is still not an option.

This. It's amazing that Elite defensive players get NO recognition.

Plus, how the **** could you vote for Reke, he's really a PG not even a SG. Not to mention he sucks.

You can't vote Harden because he's not better then Terry, both do the same thing as 6th men, and Terry is a better 6th man.

roshan3ai
07-04-2011, 01:46 PM
This. It's amazing that Elite defensive players get NO recognition.

Plus, how the **** could you vote for Reke, he's really a PG not even a SG. Not to mention he sucks.

You can't vote Harden because he's not better then Terry, both do the same thing as 6th men, and Terry is a better 6th man.

Love the in-depth analysis of why Terry is better than Harden.

WS: Harden (7.1) > Terry (5.3)
WS/48: Harden (.156) > Terry (.100)

Harden is a more efficient scorer than Jet Terry:
TS%: Harden (60%) > Terry (55%)
eFG%: Harden (52%) > Terry (51%)

Harden makes more of an impact on the court offensively than Terry does:
ORTG: Harden (119) > Terry (106)

The team benefits more from Harden's presence on the floor than the team does of Terry's presence on the floor:
Statistical Plus/Minus: Harden (2.32) > Terry (1.9)

Also, just because a young player has played the role of sixth man his entire two year career doesn't mean he's confined to that role. He'd be a fine starter

LTBaByyy
07-04-2011, 02:26 PM
^^^^ Harden will be the 6th man for the Thunder for however long Westbrook is there

Their bench would suck with:

Maynor
Cook
Thabo
Collison
Mohammed

Unless they get a 6th man quality player, Harden will be the 6th man

Baller1
07-04-2011, 02:55 PM
What does James Harden do better than any one of the guys who was voted ahead of him. There's NO way he makes the top 8. You highly overrate him.

Well here's something to consider:


Love the in-depth analysis of why Terry is better than Harden.

WS: Harden (7.1) > Terry (5.3)
WS/48: Harden (.156) > Terry (.100)

Harden is a more efficient scorer than Jet Terry:
TS%: Harden (60%) > Terry (55%)
eFG%: Harden (52%) > Terry (51%)

Harden makes more of an impact on the court offensively than Terry does:
ORTG: Harden (119) > Terry (106)

The team benefits more from Harden's presence on the floor than the team does of Terry's presence on the floor:
Statistical Plus/Minus: Harden (2.32) > Terry (1.9)

Also, just because a young player has played the role of sixth man his entire two year career doesn't mean he's confined to that role. He'd be a fine starter

Also, when comparing the numbers, Martin is the only one of these players that is visibly better. However, everyone likes to rave about Martin's scoring, but fail to realize Harden scores just as efficiently (just very slightly less efficient).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=hardeja01&y1=2011&p2=terryja01&y2=2011&p3=gordoer01&y3=2011&p4=ellismo01&y4=2011&p5=martike02&y5=2011

Monta Ellis is a chucker, Terry is nothing more than a scorer, and Martin is a pathetic defender.

I can see an argument for Gordon and Martin, but Ellis is overrated and Terry is just a scorer off the bench. After the Jeff Green departure, Harden was by far the best sixth man in the league. If Harden is given the starting spot he deserves, then he'll shoot up the list of SG's.

There's more to basketball than just scoring, and Harden is the best all around player of the bunch. He's a two-way player, which none of these other players can claim to be.

alencp3
07-04-2011, 03:18 PM
James Harden followed by Reke

Greet
07-04-2011, 03:37 PM
Love the in-depth analysis of why Terry is better than Harden.

WS: Harden (7.1) > Terry (5.3)
WS/48: Harden (.156) > Terry (.100)

Harden is a more efficient scorer than Jet Terry:
TS%: Harden (60%) > Terry (55%)
eFG%: Harden (52%) > Terry (51%)

Harden makes more of an impact on the court offensively than Terry does:
ORTG: Harden (119) > Terry (106)

The team benefits more from Harden's presence on the floor than the team does of Terry's presence on the floor:
Statistical Plus/Minus: Harden (2.32) > Terry (1.9)

Also, just because a young player has played the role of sixth man his entire two year career doesn't mean he's confined to that role. He'd be a fine starter

Nice job posting a bunch of "Advanced" stats that have more flaws then the Iraqi government. "Advanced" stats (I put it in quotations because the only reason they're advanced is because the rest of the stats suck) favor the good teams. First of all, using +/- is a laughable thing, that's a ****ing useless stat.

I use to use WS a lot in my arguments, until I saw that Derrick Rose had a higher DWS then CP3/Rondo/D-Will, then I knew all these "Advanced" stats are ********. The only real "Advanced" stat I look at is TS%, but then I never realized why the **** free-throws are accounted for. Flaws, flaws, flaws my friend.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-04-2011, 04:00 PM
I would have gone with Tyreke Evans here.

I think a lot of people forgot that he put up 20-5-5 as a 19 year old rookie.

Last year he had ankle issues all season. His upside is tremendous, and he has plenty of time to reach it.

Swashcuff
07-04-2011, 04:16 PM
Well here's something to consider:

Well Roshan's post had nothing to due with what I asked even tho he stated Harden's #s.

I will add to his post and compare the 3 players who went ahead of Harden that you brought up in this post.

Statiscal +/-


Player G Min OSPM DSPM SPM
Kevin Martin 80 2603 5.83 -1.97 3.86
James Harden 82 2189 2.32 0.08 2.40
Monta Ellis 80 3227 3.19 -0.93 2.26
Eric Gordon 56 2112 4.05 -1.90 2.15

Offensive statistical +/-


Player G Min OSPM
Kevin Martin 80 2603 5.83
Eric Gordon 56 2112 4.05
Monta Ellis 80 3227 3.19
James Harden 82 2189 2.32

Look at how much they differ. 2-4 are actually not very far apart. As far as WS/48, WS and ORtg. When comparing players on these basis you have to have a comprehensive understanding of all the factors that are being assessed. These stats are highly influenced by situation, role, team and supporting casts. Harden benefits from all these more than any one else here. Don't get me wrong I am an advocate for the #s and am impressed by Harden's impact and production but one needs to understand them before being sold on them.


Also, when comparing the numbers, Martin is the only one of these players that is visibly better. However, everyone likes to rave about Martin's scoring, but fail to realize Harden scores just as efficiently (just very slightly less efficient).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=hardeja01&y1=2011&p2=terryja01&y2=2011&p3=gordoer01&y3=2011&p4=ellismo01&y4=2011&p5=martike02&y5=2011

I think you guys who base your entire arguments on offensive efficiency really are lacking the understanding of exactly how offensive efficiency works.

You can't compare a 6th man (who scores at half the rate) to a #1 option and say that a player is a better scorer because he's more efficient. There is more that goes into efficiency than what we look at on basketball reference.

On your basis of efficiency you should not be voting for Harden but rather for Arron Afflalo.


Monta Ellis is a chucker, Terry is nothing more than a scorer, and Martin is a pathetic defender.

Monta is a chucker? So then what is Kevin Durant? KD's 35.2 % pass was 2nd worst among all SFs. He chucks more than Ellis (whose % pass last season was 52.2 %), but that is with good reason within his skill set. Well same as Monta though he may get ahead of himself more times than not.

See the problem is you guys take stats as you see it without an attempt to analyse why they are the way they are. Without applying them to the actual game itself. A common thing is the misinterpretation of the #s. Harden's eFG% shows how he benefits in his role and the fact he makes 39% of his FGs from beyond the 3pt line as compared to Monta's 18%.

It's widely known than Harden has a knack for getting fouled at a high rate while Monta does not. It shows by Harden's higher TS%.

In a nutshell while Harden does indeed hold he edge on Monta in these regards a better understanding of the numbers would show you the reasons as to why there is such a difference and why these #s can't be can't be taken seriously when comparing a 40 min + per game first option and a 6th man.


I can see an argument for Gordon and Martin, but Ellis is overrated and Terry is just a scorer off the bench. After the Jeff Green departure, Harden was by far the best sixth man in the league. If Harden is given the starting spot he deserves, then he'll shoot up the list of SG's.

I agree that Harden will be a good starter I also agree that Ellis is overrated but based on Harden's production he is not better than Monta. I don't think you can see any argument for Gordon or Martin because if I remember correctly you voted Harden ahead of Gordon for the #8.


There's more to basketball than just scoring, and Harden is the best all around player of the bunch. He's a two-way player, which none of these other players can claim to be.

Of which bunch you mean the bunch left right? Because he is not a better defensive player than Eric Gordon. Of the players who are left on the poll I can see your argument for that.

Swashcuff
07-04-2011, 04:28 PM
Nice job posting a bunch of "Advanced" stats that have more flaws then the Iraqi government. "Advanced" stats (I put it in quotations because the only reason they're advanced is because the rest of the stats suck) favor the good teams. First of all, using +/- is a laughable thing, that's a ****ing useless stat.

I use to use WS a lot in my arguments, until I saw that Derrick Rose had a higher DWS then CP3/Rondo/D-Will, then I knew all these "Advanced" stats are ********. The only real "Advanced" stat I look at is TS%, but then I never realized why the **** free-throws are accounted for. Flaws, flaws, flaws my friend.

They don't suck bro and SPM is golden trust me.

The problem with advanced stats is the people who use them without understanding. The guy who posted them knows his stuff so he isn't one of them.

All advanced stats could be explained. With the proper understanding we would all appreciate them a bit more.

When people see them and use them based solely on face value they become abused.

Rose doesn't have more DWS than Rondo they are equal and a better indicator would be DWS/48 which Rondo has him trumped big time. DWS is a stat which incorporates DRtg which incorporates Team DRtg and margin per WIN. Derrick Rose's DWS was HIGHLY influenced by the Bulls team and not just his defense.

Once you understand that the stats themselves would make sense though it may seem inaccurate. ;)

Greet
07-04-2011, 04:49 PM
They don't suck bro and SPM is golden trust me.

The problem with advanced stats is the people who use them without understanding. The guy who posted them knows his stuff so he isn't one of them.

All advanced stats could be explained. With the proper understanding we would all appreciate them a bit more.

When people see them and use them based solely on face value they become abused.

Rose doesn't have more DWS than Rondo they are equal and a better indicator would be DWS/48 which Rondo has him trumped big time. DWS is a stat which incorporates DRtg which incorporates Team DRtg and margin per WIN. Derrick Rose's DWS was HIGHLY influenced by the Bulls team and not just his defense.

Once you understand that the stats themselves would make sense though it may seem inaccurate. ;)

I know that basics of advanced stats for NBA, I never really cared much to get into it though. It's not nearly as advanced as baseball is.

LTBaByyy
07-04-2011, 06:58 PM
Terry won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got my Joe Johnson at #4 and my Terry at #9 :dance:

Good day! Now Tyreke to finish it out.

Lets start these SF's

LTBaByyy
07-04-2011, 06:59 PM
Mavs might not have a 2nd superstar but they have a top 10 player at every position

DR_1
07-04-2011, 08:00 PM
Terry then Jackson

sixer04fan
07-04-2011, 08:20 PM
Not yet James Harden, damn he is overrated on this forum

marj987
07-05-2011, 12:30 AM
For some reason.....I think Marcus Thornton should be on here.....He had an way much better season than Reke....Well no he didn't he was unstoppable toward the end of the season....

Chronz
07-05-2011, 01:02 AM
Also, when comparing the numbers, Martin is the only one of these players that is visibly better. However, everyone likes to rave about Martin's scoring, but fail to realize Harden scores just as efficiently (just very slightly less efficient).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=hardeja01&y1=2011&p2=terryja01&y2=2011&p3=gordoer01&y3=2011&p4=ellismo01&y4=2011&p5=martike02&y5=2011

Harden is actually the more efficient offensive player, sadly the gap in usage discredits that being the foundation of an argument. Its why WS (a stat meant to favor efficiency and exposes bad defenders on bad teams to the fullest) still measures ahead.


Nice job posting a bunch of "Advanced" stats that have more flaws then the Iraqi government. "Advanced" stats (I put it in quotations because the only reason they're advanced is because the rest of the stats suck) favor the good teams. First of all, using +/- is a laughable thing, that's a ****ing useless stat.

I use to use WS a lot in my arguments, until I saw that Derrick Rose had a higher DWS then CP3/Rondo/D-Will, then I knew all these "Advanced" stats are ********. The only real "Advanced" stat I look at is TS%, but then I never realized why the **** free-throws are accounted for. Flaws, flaws, flaws my friend.
I was taking your post seriously up until the very end, shame too because I was getting excited for a minute. If you cant even understand why FTs are accounted for then its no wonder you prefer baseball metrics, you want the #'s to do ALL the thinking for you.

Greet
07-05-2011, 12:12 PM
Harden is actually the more efficient offensive player, sadly the gap in usage discredits that being the foundation of an argument. Its why WS (a stat meant to favor efficiency and exposes bad defenders on bad teams to the fullest) still measures ahead.


I was taking your post seriously up until the very end, shame too because I was getting excited for a minute. If you cant even understand why FTs are accounted for then its no wonder you prefer baseball metrics, you want the #'s to do ALL the thinking for you.

Just because a player hits a free-throw doesn't make him more efficient then someone else.

roshan3ai
07-05-2011, 01:48 PM
Just because a player hits a free-throw doesn't make him more efficient then someone else.

:laugh: What about getting to the free throw line chief?

Swashcuff
07-05-2011, 02:06 PM
Just because a player hits a free-throw doesn't make him more efficient then someone else.

Come on bro don't be difficult. It absolutely does.

If two players average shoot 45% from the field on 14 shots (4 3s per at 38% each) and get to the line at the same clip. The only difference is their FT% would you not say that the person who shoots a higher % is a more efficient scorer?

Greet
07-05-2011, 02:32 PM
Come on bro don't be difficult. It absolutely does.

If two players average shoot 45% from the field on 14 shots (4 3s per at 38% each) and get to the line at the same clip. The only difference is their FT% would you not say that the person who shoots a higher % is a more efficient scorer?

That's not how it works. If you compare a pure shooter too someone who shoots and drives, FT% could be a big difference.

Chronz
07-05-2011, 04:09 PM
Just because a player hits a free-throw doesn't make him more efficient then someone else.

Well first of all, yes it does, secondly its the act of being able to get to the FT line that makes you efficient.


That's not how it works. If you compare a pure shooter too someone who shoots and drives, FT% could be a big difference.
Thats why TS% gives credit to guys who can make 3pt shots as well.
And thats exactly how it works and not a single statistician would disagree.

KnicksorBust
07-05-2011, 04:20 PM
Tyreke Evans.

smith&wesson
07-05-2011, 04:26 PM
demar derozan

Heediot
07-05-2011, 04:39 PM
Off topic but Eric Gordon shoulda been number 5.

KingPosey
07-05-2011, 05:03 PM
WOW... Terry is so underrated. Tyreke has more votes than him... Laughter.

Jason Terry in regular season - 15.8ppg, 4.1apg, 1.9rpg, .451fg% in 31.3 minutes per game.
Tyreke Evans in regular season - 17.8ppg, 5.6apg, 4.8rpg, .409fg% in 37.0 minutes per game.

The fact is that Jason Terry played in the playoffs while Tyreke didn't. And Jason Terry was the second best player on the champion team, and not only that look at his stats.

Which is better?
17.5ppg, 3.2apg, 1.9rpg, .478fg%, 32.6mpg in playoffs.
17.8ppg, .409fg% and 37mpg in regular season.

The bold is a pointless statement for so many reasons. One played on a veteran, good team,and one didnt. Dont be stupid.

Sadds The Gr8
07-05-2011, 05:06 PM
Just because a player hits a free-throw doesn't make him more efficient then someone else.

wtf?

Greet
07-05-2011, 05:34 PM
Well first of all, yes it does, secondly its the act of being able to get to the FT line that makes you efficient.


Thats why TS% gives credit to guys who can make 3pt shots as well.
And thats exactly how it works and not a single statistician would disagree.

What if I wanted to compare Kyle Korver's efficiency to James Harden's?

Chronz
07-05-2011, 05:52 PM
What if I wanted to compare Kyle Korver's efficiency to James Harden's?
What would stop you?

Greet
07-05-2011, 05:58 PM
What would stop you?

Harden has a much higher TS%, but I think we all know who the better shooter is.

TrueFan420
07-05-2011, 06:16 PM
Well first of all, yes it does, secondly its the act of being able to get to the FT line that makes you efficient.


Thats why TS% gives credit to guys who can make 3pt shots as well.
And thats exactly how it works and not a single statistician would disagree.

thats not complete true. superstars get calls that they dont always deserve and rookies and role players tend to get shafted. its common knowledge that the league favors players.

J-Relo
07-05-2011, 06:45 PM
Tyreke and Terry for the last two spots.

Chronz
07-05-2011, 06:48 PM
Harden has a much higher TS%, but I think we all know who the better shooter is.
Im not seeing your point, if you want a tool to help you measure 3pt shooting you look at 3P%, if you want to know midrange shooting you look at mid range shooting, if you want a measurement to give you the results from the field in general then you look at eFG%, if you want to know whos better at scoring efficiency you use TS%, if you want to know whos most efficient offensively in general you look at how efficient they are on a per possession basis.

All of these are descriptor stats, based on last year Harden is the better offensive player because he can score more PTS for you team without needing to take many possessions. Thats the definition of efficiency, its pretty close but the fact that Harden can handle the bigger load without losing much of his efficiency in this comparison makes him the better offensive player. Regardless of what you make of their shooting ability.

MiamiWadeCounty
07-05-2011, 06:49 PM
:(, Tyreke better get number 10 :p.

Chronz
07-05-2011, 06:52 PM
thats not complete true. superstars get calls that they dont always deserve and rookies and role players tend to get shafted. its common knowledge that the league favors players.
Its an overblown simplification that fans use to degrade a player/team.

If superstars are the ones who get all the calls then how did Maggette lead the league in drawn fouls rate all those years? Maybe hes just that good at getting to the line?

Superstars dont get calls, they get the benefit of the doubt in 50/50 situations. Now assessing that split is all opinion, Ive seen fans argue that Kobe gets too many ticky tack calls and others argue the opposite. I really dont care because in the end, they are still GETTING TO THE LINE. That act is making them more efficient. I dont care if the Refs are giving you calls, just so long as your giving me points.

Sportfan
07-06-2011, 08:08 AM
Tyreke

Sportfan
07-06-2011, 08:11 AM
It's amazingly sad how underrated Evans is. He should have been 8th

DR_1
07-06-2011, 08:38 AM
Where is the #10 thread lol

Swashcuff
07-06-2011, 08:55 AM
Tony Allen BETTER be an option in the #10 poll. :mad:

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-06-2011, 01:55 PM
When are we going to move on to the next one? This poll has been closed for days now.

KnicksR4Real
07-06-2011, 02:07 PM
stephen jackson...

Sadds The Gr8
07-06-2011, 02:12 PM
When are we going to move on to the next one? This poll has been closed for days now.

i don't think MHC has been on in the last couple days

Hawkeye15
07-06-2011, 03:21 PM
Poll has closed, so I am closing the thread. #10 will be up when MHC gets online with a few minutes to spare. Thanks for voting