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ManRam
07-01-2011, 12:30 AM
So voting is over for the #1 player and your #1 player of all time is...

Michael Jordan (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631361)


http://www.soleredemption.com/pics/2006/04/michael_jordan.JPG

30.1 PPG | 6.2 RPG | 5.3 APG | 2.3 STL | .497 FG% |

Achievements:
14 time All-Star
6 NBA Championships
'85 Rookie Of The Year
5 Time MVP
6 Time Finals MVP
3 Time All-Star Game MVP
'88 Defensive Player of the Year
10 Time All-NBA First Teamer
1 Time All-NBA Second Teamer
9 Time All-Defensive First Teamer
Led the League in scoring 10 times
Led the League in steals 3 times
Led the League in PER 8 times

Michael Jordan = 150 votes
Magic Johnson = 4 votes
Shaquille O'neal = 3 votes
Bill Russell = 2 votes
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar = 2 votes
Oscar Robertson = 2 votes
Kobe Bryant = 2 votes
Wilt Chamberlain = 1 vote
Larry Bird = 1 vote
Tim Duncan = 1 vote
Julius Erving = 1 vote


Link (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242529)


Voting will now begin for the second best player of all time.

stawka
07-01-2011, 12:33 AM
I'm going with Magic on this one

210Don
07-01-2011, 12:41 AM
my man.
timmy d

Hustlenomics
07-01-2011, 12:44 AM
Skyhook or Magic

JordansBulls
07-01-2011, 12:46 AM
This comes down to Kareem and Russell for me.

Russell dominated in his time defensively, but Kareem dominated both ends of the floor. Russell won more and Kareem had better numbers, but overall Kareem had the stats, accolades, productively and rings as well. I usually go with Kareem for #2 because I feel that to be the best you have to be one of the top players of all time namely top 2 you need to play well on offense and defense.

For Nomination I am going with Moses Malone. A 3x MVP and 1x Finals MVP winner.

knicksfan42
07-01-2011, 12:48 AM
Skyhook or Magic

No love for Bird.

tredigs
07-01-2011, 12:53 AM
I just erased my post for Kareem. God Damnit.

Anyway, very arguably the top career in NBA history. 19X All Star (record), 15 time All-NBA (record), 11 time All NBA defensive, most points in the games history, most MVP's in the games history, ROY, Finals MVP's, rarely missed a game (in 20 years!), probably the most unstoppable shot in the games history, etc. etc. etc. I could go on for much longer including advanced stats, All-Time ranks, etc.

The guy's accolades and dominance know no bounds. Throw in best high school + college player of all time for good measure (I know, NBA thread).

Just a monster. #2 for me.

YourTeamSucks
07-01-2011, 12:57 AM
Shaq!

JordansBulls
07-01-2011, 12:59 AM
I just erased my post for Kareem. God Damnit.

Anyway, very arguably the top career in NBA history. 19X All Star (record), 15 time All-NBA (record), 11 time All NBA defensive, most points in the games history, most MVP's in the games history, ROY, Finals MVP's, rarely missed a game (in 20 years!), probably the most unstoppable shot in the games history, etc. etc. etc. I could go on for much longer including advanced stats, All-Time ranks, etc.

The guy's accolades and dominance know no bounds. Throw in best high school + college player of all time for good measure (I know, NBA thread).

Just a monster. #2 for me.

Yep

Kareem is already routinely mentioned in GOAT discussions, and in 80+% of lists is no lower than #3. He has the best case for GOAT imo after Jordan, and I have him at #2 all time. Had he not played with another top 5 all-time player for 9 years (and been the second best player on 2-3 of his title teams), he'd have an even stronger case. KAJ has ridiculous accolades, longevity, and is one of the 3 most statistically dominant players in history along with MJ and Wilt.

ManRam
07-01-2011, 01:00 AM
I voted Kareem as well.

Crackadalic
07-01-2011, 01:00 AM
I want to pick Russell but getting rings has so much to do with team play. He had I believe 4-5 hall of famers on his team. Not knocking Russell because he was a hell of a player but Kareem for me has the resume the make him number 2 all time. Not as many rings but he has so many achievements on both sides on the floor

tredigs
07-01-2011, 01:05 AM
Yep

Kareem is already routinely mentioned in GOAT discussions, and in 80+% of lists is no lower than #3. He has the best case for GOAT imo after Jordan, and I have him at #2 all time. Had he not played with another top 5 all-time player for 9 years (and been the second best player on 2-3 of his title teams), he'd have an even stronger case. KAJ has ridiculous accolades, longevity, and is one of the 3 most statistically dominant players in history along with MJ and Wilt.

Agreed, but I can't even fault Kareem for the fact that he was joined by another legend when he was already in his 30's and they were able to dominate the league together.

Imagine if it was a early 20's Kareem who had joined an early 30's Magic rather than the other way around? Those Finals MVP's are likely flipped in KAJ's favor. The guy was a 30/16/5 player while leading the league in blocks fresh out of college. Absolutely dominant. And actually, we basically saw this play out in the fact that he was joined by an early 30's Oscar Robertson in his 2nd year who Kareem led to a title...

Not to take anything away from Magic's brilliance, but it's definitely food for thought. Also consider that Magic would almost certainly not be an NBA champion in year 1 without lucking out on the Lakers draw (and Kareem).

JordansBulls
07-01-2011, 01:07 AM
I want to pick Russell but getting rings has so much to do with team play. He had I believe 4-5 hall of famers on his team. Not knocking Russell because he was a hell of a player but Kareem for me has the resume the make him number 2 all time. Not as many rings but he has so many achievements on both sides on the floor

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/marty_burns/news/2002/06/13/lakers_follow/



Boston's 1962-63 squad featured eight future Hall of Famers (Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, Tom Heinsohn, Sam Jones, John Havlicek, Frank Ramsey, K.C. Jones and Clyde Lovellette). Not exactly two stars and a bunch of role players, like today's champions.

GREATNESS ONE
07-01-2011, 01:08 AM
I have to wait to vote lol my heart is saying Magic but my mind is saying The Captain. What I still believe is the highest competition era/decade the 80's. These 2 men help lead us to 5 Championships ! I'm going to hold my vote for a moment.

It'sMyTime
07-01-2011, 01:10 AM
I say Bill Russell. He, and his team, dominated an era like no one has ever seen. 11 rings in 13 years is unbelievable in my opinion so i vote for Russell.

Mochalman
07-01-2011, 01:11 AM
Stilt.

Hawkeye15
07-01-2011, 01:12 AM
The tall PG from MSU

Sadds The Gr8
07-01-2011, 01:15 AM
The tall PG from MSU

this.

tredigs
07-01-2011, 01:15 AM
Even in Magic's year one when he had his amazing game six and clinched the trophy after KAJ sprained his ankle, it was Kareem who was leading them to the 3-2 edge in the series while putting up 33 a game (plus probably leading in blocks+rebounds as he usually did).

Looking at it now, and he actually led the entire league in playoff PER + Win Shares during that run. He would've DEFINITELY been Finals MVP had he not sprained his ankle and allowed for Magic to showcase his (undoubted) mastery in that final game.

MrfadeawayJB
07-01-2011, 01:16 AM
I chose Wilt....one of the first really dominate big men, cant argue with 100 pts

JordansBulls
07-01-2011, 01:21 AM
Even in Magic's year one when he had his amazing game six and clinched the trophy after KAJ sprained his ankle, it was Kareem who was leading them to the 3-2 edge in the series while putting up 33 a game (plus probably leading in blocks+rebounds as he usually did).

Looking at it now, and he actually led the entire league in playoff PER + Win Shares during that run. He would've DEFINITELY been Finals MVP had he not sprained his ankle and allowed for Magic to showcase his (undoubted) mastery in that final game.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1980.htm#

33 and 14

Not to mention in game 6 people forget that Wilkes put up 37 and 10.

Hawkeye15
07-01-2011, 01:27 AM
Magic doesn't live up to the stats of some of the other top 5 players. But measure his rosters stats with him around vs him not around to get the actual effect.

He just made teams win. Period

knightstemplar
07-01-2011, 01:27 AM
Kareem
6 rings, 6 mvps, alltime leader in points
best case for goat other than jordan

Kobes a Killer
07-01-2011, 01:28 AM
I just erased my post for Kareem. God Damnit.

Anyway, very arguably the top career in NBA history. 19X All Star (record), 15 time All-NBA (record), 11 time All NBA defensive, most points in the games history, most MVP's in the games history, ROY, Finals MVP's, rarely missed a game (in 20 years!), probably the most unstoppable shot in the games history, etc. etc. etc. I could go on for much longer including advanced stats, All-Time ranks, etc.

The guy's accolades and dominance know no bounds. Throw in best high school + college player of all time for good measure (I know, NBA thread).

Just a monster. #2 for me.

Wow I did not know all of this, my lack of the games history dissapoints me. Very very impressive stats unbelievable

Lloyd Christmas
07-01-2011, 01:32 AM
Wilt. Put him on the Celtics instead of Russell and he would probably be considered the GOAT. Those Celtics teams were just too good.

Kobes a Killer
07-01-2011, 01:42 AM
Wilt. Put him on the Celtics instead of Russell and he would probably be considered the GOAT. Those Celtics teams were just too good.

hahahahahaha sweet sig pic

Lloyd Christmas
07-01-2011, 01:44 AM
hahahahahaha sweet sig pic

Thanks buddy

THE GIPPER
07-01-2011, 01:46 AM
The tall PG from MSU

Yup

SanPitte
07-01-2011, 02:08 AM
Voted for Wilt...he had monster stats (50 pts/game, 20+rebounds, assists, blocks...), scored 100 points in a game, had to play against the hall of famers celtics, and won two nba titles (when he got a good team around him)
he also was the first superstar in the league

Romo2Bryant
07-01-2011, 02:08 AM
Has anyone on PSD ever watch Bill Russell or Chamberlain play??.. Just saying.. Yes I respect what they done in their careers, but it get's annoying when people keep on saying how good they were, when they never watch one game of them.

Romo2Bryant
07-01-2011, 02:10 AM
I chose Wilt....one of the first really dominate big men, cant argue with 100 pts

Have you watch any of his games? ;)

Lloyd Christmas
07-01-2011, 02:11 AM
^ Do you ever watch ESPN Classic?

broncosfan4eva
07-01-2011, 02:12 AM
Magiccc

GREATNESS ONE
07-01-2011, 02:35 AM
^ Do you ever watch ESPN Classic?

I do. all the time and the 100 point game was never televised.

Lakersfan2483
07-01-2011, 03:01 AM
The Captain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Spiggity_ace
07-01-2011, 03:04 AM
gotta be wilt, his accomplishments are unbelievable, he made the nba look like a video game

freedas
07-01-2011, 03:16 AM
Wilt chamberlain. Most powerful force in his era probably ever. Also averaged 8 assist a game one year.

Denver-boy
07-01-2011, 03:32 AM
Wilt! c'mon people

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-01-2011, 04:40 AM
I voted Magic Johnson...but it was really tough to make that choice. It will only continue to be this tough.

Ebbs
07-01-2011, 04:51 AM
I know the competition was lesser and whatever else. But I choose to be ignorant. Wilt was a monster who regardless of minutes and possesions dominated the game. He is #2

Rosh
07-01-2011, 05:36 AM
The fact that Wilt and Magic have 20 votes apiece while Russell has only 3 is astonishing. I voted for Kareem myself, but my goodness. Wilt was a shameless underachiever.

Bruno
07-01-2011, 07:16 AM
I took KAJ. I think him and Magic are interchangeable here. After that I'd take Russell, all time leader in defensive win-shares and championships, and its not close.

I'd nominated Moses Malone for the #3 thread.

Bruno
07-01-2011, 07:26 AM
I take Magic as the greatest Laker of all-time. But in overall career rankings I give the nod to KAJ. Those first six years in Milwaukee were big for his career; one ring, one finals MVP, three regular season MVPs, five all-star game appearances.

KAJ has more win-shares than any other player in NBA history. He lead the league in PER nine times, leading scorer in NBA history, 2nd in all-time MVP award shares. Six championships, six regular season MVPs, two finals MVPs. He holds the record for most all-nba teams made with fifteen appearances. 19 all-star game appearances.

NYKalltheway
07-01-2011, 07:29 AM
Kobe with 5 votes? :facepalm:

LakersIn5
07-01-2011, 07:39 AM
i voted for wilt. yeah russell got the blings but russell had a better supporting cast. meh

LakersIn5
07-01-2011, 07:41 AM
damn wilt,kareem and magic so tight for the no.2 spot

DR_1
07-01-2011, 08:38 AM
For me, it was Kareem or Wilt. Kareem got it from me because of the skyhook and the fact that competition was a bit harder during Kareem's time.

BklynKnicks3
07-01-2011, 10:15 AM
Kobe 1

JordansBulls
07-01-2011, 11:21 AM
Kobe 1

No he is not, and don't troll these threads promoting an agenda and hijacking threads.

Swashcuff
07-01-2011, 11:24 AM
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar here for me.

Swashcuff
07-01-2011, 11:29 AM
The fact that Wilt and Magic have 20 votes apiece while Russell has only 3 is astonishing. I voted for Kareem myself, but my goodness. Wilt was a shameless underachiever.

Shameless underachiever?

You mean in team accomplishments right?

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-01-2011, 11:45 AM
Russell here. He would always beat Wilt who is my number three. Nominate Elgin Baylor for the next one. Also how are people voting for Kobe.

Lloyd Christmas
07-01-2011, 11:56 AM
I do. all the time and the 100 point game was never televised.

That is correct. The 100 point game was a meaningless game and wasn't televised. However, there has been plenty of game action of Wilt and Russell shown on NBA TV and ESPN.

MagicBucsSox
07-01-2011, 11:58 AM
98% of you never seen some these guys play unless your 40yo+

jim51990
07-01-2011, 12:24 PM
i actually believe magic was better then mj so i think hes the clear choice here
coming from a celtics fan who hates the lakers

Swashcuff
07-01-2011, 12:27 PM
98% of you never seen some these guys play unless your 40yo+

And what does that have to do with anything.

Don't you think there is enough film, articles, statistics and books out there that would give us a healthy understanding of exactly how great those players were?

Master Mind
07-01-2011, 12:29 PM
Wilt Chamberlain

MagicBucsSox
07-01-2011, 12:39 PM
And what does that have to do with anything.

Don't you think there is enough film, articles, statistics and books out there that would give us a healthy understanding of exactly how great those players were?

Alot, every generation think the players of their time was the best. Your going off what your father n old school people say. Hell if I show my kid all kwame brown or Darius miles good highlights, he'll run around to all his friends saying how good they were in this day and age.

Stats don't tell you all the favorable rules wilt n Russell played with. Not to mention the weak players in a predominantly white league back then. Hell the last white all star was who brad miller? I don't respect none them old school players stats

Swashcuff
07-01-2011, 12:50 PM
Alot, every generation think the players of their time was the best. Your going off what your father n old school people say. Hell if I show my kid all kwame brown or Darius miles good highlights, he'll run around to all his friends saying how good they were in this day and age.

Stats don't tell you all the favorable rules wilt n Russell played with. Not to mention the weak players in a predominantly white league back then. Hell the last white all star was who brad miller? I don't respect none them old school players stats

So in your opinion the books that some of us have read doesn't give us an understanding of that competition the player's skill set or anything of that sort. Books and articles written by the "experts" many of whom also didn't see those players in their prime become null and void in these sorts of discussions.

If one has a comprehensive understand of the statistics they'd be able to tell you that yes indeed they understand those players opposition. I won't make the argument but one can certainly be made that due to the fact that there were fewer teams the concentration of talent was totally different which made it harder for some players/teams. Now I don't subscribe by it but someone once gave me a very compelling argument such a case.

You won't respect those stats because you don't attempt to put them into perspective.

I believe I have done enough reading to give me a better understanding of those players than many who have seen them play.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-01-2011, 01:06 PM
Alot, every generation think the players of their time was the best. Your going off what your father n old school people say. Hell if I show my kid all kwame brown or Darius miles good highlights, he'll run around to all his friends saying how good they were in this day and age.

Stats don't tell you all the favorable rules wilt n Russell played with. Not to mention the weak players in a predominantly white league back then. Hell the last white all star was who brad miller? I don't respect none them old school players stats

Actually Kevin Love this year.

Swashcuff
07-01-2011, 01:07 PM
Actually Kevin Love this year.

Dirk, Nash for quite some time.

naps
07-01-2011, 01:09 PM
lmfao! Kobe with 6 votes and Russell with 4!

KnicksR4Real
07-01-2011, 01:14 PM
russell

Chrisstyles
07-01-2011, 01:29 PM
Kareem is good but to put him ahead of Wilt is ridiculous. A lot of you guys dont no how dominant Wilt was. Wilt was so dominant that the plan was to get him the ball inside and his teammates would get stagnant, thats why his teams couldnt beat Boston. Than he was asked to completely change his game and not score as much but pass and screen in the post so the guards can get shots and not be stagnant.
So for those who always make excuses about if Wilt played when Kareem played think about this, the game was played different when Kareem played and the coaches would have figured out a way to ultilize such a dominant player like Wilt.
It is also known that Wilt was averageing at least 7 or 8 blocks per game and theres even records of him having a game with i think 24 blocked shots in a game.
Also for all those who say well Wilt was dominated by Russell. Believe me when I say Russell couldnt stop him but he could contain him. Also if you remember Kareem was being completely dominated by Moses Malone and Ralph Sampson in the 1980's

Lloyd Christmas
07-01-2011, 01:40 PM
Oh and I nominate Moses Malone as well

JordansBulls
07-01-2011, 01:47 PM
Kareem is good but to put him ahead of Wilt is ridiculous. A lot of you guys dont no how dominant Wilt was. Wilt was so dominant that the plan was to get him the ball inside and his teammates would get stagnant, thats why his teams couldnt beat Boston. Than he was asked to completely change his game and not score as much but pass and screen in the post so the guards can get shots and not be stagnant.
So for those who always make excuses about if Wilt played when Kareem played think about this, the game was played different when Kareem played and the coaches would have figured out a way to ultilize such a dominant player like Wilt.
It is also known that Wilt was averageing at least 7 or 8 blocks per game and theres even records of him having a game with i think 24 blocked shots in a game.
Also for all those who say well Wilt was dominated by Russell. Believe me when I say Russell couldnt stop him but he could contain him. Also if you remember Kareem was being completely dominated by Moses Malone and Ralph Sampson in the 1980's

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History


2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History

3. Kareem - 75
4. West -74
5. Baylor - 60

Wilt played more playoff games than both West and Baylor and yet they have more 40+ and 30+ point games than him and they played in the same era.

Rosh
07-01-2011, 02:18 PM
Shameless underachiever?

You mean in team accomplishments right?


No, I mean total package. Go read up on Wilt sometime. Wilt set out with a personal agenda every season, whatever he felt like doing to please himself. The man wasted so much of his talents and was an insufferable ballhog intermittently. The Book of Basketball, especially, unmasks him.

Rosh
07-01-2011, 02:20 PM
Kareem is good but to put him ahead of Wilt is ridiculous. A lot of you guys dont no how dominant Wilt was. Wilt was so dominant that the plan was to get him the ball inside and his teammates would get stagnant, thats why his teams couldnt beat Boston. Than he was asked to completely change his game and not score as much but pass and screen in the post so the guards can get shots and not be stagnant.
So for those who always make excuses about if Wilt played when Kareem played think about this, the game was played different when Kareem played and the coaches would have figured out a way to ultilize such a dominant player like Wilt.
It is also known that Wilt was averageing at least 7 or 8 blocks per game and theres even records of him having a game with i think 24 blocked shots in a game.
Also for all those who say well Wilt was dominated by Russell. Believe me when I say Russell couldnt stop him but he could contain him. Also if you remember Kareem was being completely dominated by Moses Malone and Ralph Sampson in the 1980's

Good Lord.


And I'm sure you're glossing over how Kareem won 2 Finals MVPs...14 years apart. Think about that for a second.

knightstemplar
07-01-2011, 03:20 PM
damn its close

gsgs49
07-01-2011, 03:43 PM
Lew Alcindor AKA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,his longevity gives him the edge over Magic imo,and I nominate Karl Malone.

Jewelz0376
07-01-2011, 03:47 PM
I had to go with Magic here...It was close for me though between him and Kareem...If you take into account that Magic had to retire at 31/32 because of hiv....he still had a good 5 or 6 years left... Obviously not prime years, but still some good years...

I see Wilt is leading right now, and yea he was an amazing individ talent...but the fact that he only has 2 titles as dominate as he was...Not to mention back in the beginning of his career their were only 4 players in the league over 6'6....

I have much respect for Wilt and what he's done, but because of his lack of post season success in comparison to magic or kareem, I can't put him ahead of them...

WizFan3
07-01-2011, 03:56 PM
kobe!!

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-01-2011, 03:58 PM
Ok so Russell only has 4 votes but yet Kobe has 7.

jtsunami
07-01-2011, 04:00 PM
For those picking Wilt, read Bill Simmons "The Book of Basketball". You will never find a fault in Wilt's numbers. He had the talent to be the GOAT, but he had too big of an ego and obsession with his personal accomplishments. That drops him down to 4-5 for me.

jason6692
07-01-2011, 04:06 PM
cus bill russell doesn't deserve it
robert horry is a poor mans bill russell
its hard to put kobe here but anyone can make a case
for him. jus cus he livbes in our era doesn't mean he's not as good
baseball reference: it's like saying don mattingly is better than albert pujols

Bruno
07-01-2011, 04:49 PM
Really hope Wilt doesn't win the #2 spot again. He shouldn't be ahead of KAJ, IMO.

Bruno
07-01-2011, 04:53 PM
Ok so Russell only has 4 votes but yet Kobe has 7.

Russell is getting shafted here. But forget about Kobe, look at how many votes Wilt has. It must suck to beat up on a guy for your entire career, only to have him surpass you in countless player ranking polls decades later by people who never watched that domination.


For those picking Wilt, read Bill Simmons "The Book of Basketball". You will never find a fault in Wilt's numbers. He had the talent to be the GOAT, but he had too big of an ego and obsession with his personal accomplishments. That drops him down to 4-5 for me.

I have Wilt after MJ, KAJ, Magic, and Russell, at least.

Rosh
07-01-2011, 05:03 PM
For those picking Wilt, read Bill Simmons "The Book of Basketball". You will never find a fault in Wilt's numbers. He had the talent to be the GOAT, but he had too big of an ego and obsession with his personal accomplishments. That drops him down to 4-5 for me.


Winning post.

Rosh
07-01-2011, 05:04 PM
Really hope Wilt doesn't win the #2 spot again. He shouldn't be ahead of KAJ, IMO.


Russell is getting shafted here. But forget about Kobe, look at how many votes Wilt has. It must suck to beat up on a guy for your entire career, only to have him surpass you in countless player ranking polls decades later by people who never watched that domination.



I have Wilt after MJ, KAJ, Magic, and Russell, at least.


These too. That book really opened my eyes to a lot of the older players. Wilt does not deserve #2 all time in the slightest.

MiamiWadeCounty
07-01-2011, 05:30 PM
Lou Alcindor :D.

Chronz
07-01-2011, 05:50 PM
Wilt Chamberlain

Give me one good reason why not

Chronz
07-01-2011, 05:53 PM
For those picking Wilt, read Bill Simmons "The Book of Basketball". You will never find a fault in Wilt's numbers. He had the talent to be the GOAT, but he had too big of an ego and obsession with his personal accomplishments. That drops him down to 4-5 for me.

Ive read it, riddled with flaws just like any opinion, but his just doesnt pass the sniff test once you begin to inspect some of his claims.

Rosh
07-01-2011, 06:09 PM
Wilt Chamberlain

Give me one good reason why not

Give US reasons why.

Wilt was an incessant ballmongerer who never used his talents to his full potential. Stepped up in the clutch sporadically at best. He got by on talent and his immense size advantage alone, something that held back Shaq from being even greater than he ended up being.

Chronz
07-01-2011, 06:16 PM
Give US reasons why.
It seems pretty obvious to me, no matter the role, Wilt could fill it better than anyone. When his owners asked him to score he did so like few others, when he had great coaches he bought in to become a passer, when he had the talent to play a Russell role he did so with higher efficiency. Russ isnt even in the conversation, personally, if you want to argue KAJ Id love to hear your take, lets just ignore Russy for now.


Wilt was an incessant ballmongerer who never used his talents to his full potential.
Few players have ever lived up to their FULL potential, thats not what matters, AT ALL. All that matters is who was superior given their talent.


Stepped up in the clutch sporadically at best. He got by on talent and his immense size advantage alone, something that held back Shaq from being even greater than he ended up being.
Do you have something more compelling than opinion?

Rosh
07-01-2011, 06:33 PM
not what matters, AT ALL. All that matters is who was superior given their talent.

Hmm. I thought we wanted something more compelling than opinion.

KAJ had one of the most unstoppable moves in the history of the game in the sky hook. If a coach needed two points, he went to the sky hook. Who else could say that and also claim that he played within the offense.

Wilt too often would work his own agenda into the game to the detriment of it, and if I recall correctly, quarreled with multiple coaches. Sounds like other greats, but the difference is he never really figured out how to quell this at any point of his career, apart from the couple of times he shat horseshoes and won a couple of championships. Doesn't sound like the #2 player of all time to me.

And then the longevity. KAJ stayed dominant and effective for many, many years, winning two Finals MVP 14 years apart each other. He was the most crucial component for a team that won the championship twice...almost a decade and a half apart. You want to talk about adjusting the game as he got older? KAJ did it with the best of them.

[quote]Few players have ever lived up to their FULL potential, thats not what matters, AT ALL. All that matters is who was superior given their talent.

Oh fine, Chronzy. KAJ it is.

Chronz
07-01-2011, 06:56 PM
KAJ had one of the most unstoppable moves in the history of the game in the sky hook. If a coach needed two points, he went to the sky hook. Who else could say that and also claim that he played within the offense.
Too much hyperbole, not enough analysis. KAJ was a great offensive player, but even he (and his "unstoppable" shot) was contained and that was by an old Wilt. Wilt so intimidated Kareem in their Final playoff series that he was invisible throughout quarters and important stretches when the team "NEEDED" a basket. This happened to KAJ more than once but Wilt was among the best at defending him, I dont have the #'s on me but he held a guy who was usually an efficient offensive player into the low 40's and he visibly intimidated his play, now imagine what a PRIME Wilt wouldve done.



Wilt too often would work his own agenda into the game to the detriment of it, and if I recall correctly, quarreled with multiple coaches. Sounds like other greats, but the difference is he never really figured out how to quell this at any point of his career, apart from the couple of times he shat horseshoes and won a couple of championships. Doesn't sound like the #2 player of all time to me.
I have yet to see any evidence that Wilts individual goals were to a detriment of his team(in fact some coaches utilized it), the beauty about Wilt is that he played and perfected many roles, they werent all out of line with what the team wanted/needed as your attempting to portray. He feuded with ignorant coaches and people who didnt command or give much respect/leeway. Wilt was a primadonna but youve got to have actual basketball reasons pertaining to how it effected his team.



And then the longevity. KAJ stayed dominant and effective for many, many years, winning two Finals MVP 14 years apart each other. He was the most crucial component for a team that won the championship twice...almost a decade and a half apart. You want to talk about adjusting the game as he got older? KAJ did it with the best of them.
Yes hes king in terms of pure seasons worth of games, Wilt closes the gap in terms of minutes but considering the superior play during his career, Ill take a guy who played the 5th most amount of minutes of all time if hes a superior player. Your argument is one similar to the only argument Kobe fans have for his supremacy above MJ. The fact that he played at a less impressive level for longer period of time.



Oh fine, Chronzy. KAJ it is
Based solely on longevity?

Chronz
07-01-2011, 07:07 PM
Really hope Wilt doesn't win the #2 spot again. He shouldn't be ahead of KAJ, IMO.
Let me put out a hypothetical, lets say the late 90's Lakers made the Finals, and
a young teenaged Kobe faced off vs a PEAK MJ, now imagine Kobe absolutely LOCKING DOWN MJ and eliminating him in the process. Would you think differently of their careers?

Rosh
07-01-2011, 07:15 PM
I don't have the particular numbers I want in front of me as I'm at home, but we'll continue this when I get back on campus.


Based solely on longevity?

Surely not. Superiority, dear Chronzy.

Chronz
07-01-2011, 07:20 PM
Russell is getting shafted here. But forget about Kobe, look at how many votes Wilt has. It must suck to beat up on a guy for your entire career, only to have him surpass you in countless player ranking polls decades later by people who never watched that domination.
Old timers want to relive the past. They will always tell the tale of how Goliath fell, coincidentally they labeled Kareem in much the same way once he became the games most dominant athlete and Wilt got to play the hero role for a few years, Wilts incredible return from knee surgery prompted this narrative. Sadly, that same injury prevented the only shot we had at a semi peak Wilt vs Kareem, but what Wilt did in spite of his debilitating injuries was impressive enough to warrant a higher stature.

Concepts like Russ being anything more than a fringe top 25 player are a result of him winning titles with stacked squads including Finals "Runs" in which all he had to do was defeat sub .500 teams on route to a somewhat compelling Finals.

Chronz
07-01-2011, 07:26 PM
I don't have the particular numbers I want in front of me as I'm at home, but we'll continue this when I get back on campus.



Surely not. Superiority, dear Chronzy.

If you wish but you dont need precise #'s to get your point across as I did by citing Kareems struggles in his series vs Wilt. If you wanted more information I could provide the exact output and scenarios involved, I would gladly assess such an epic series.

GoPacers33
07-01-2011, 07:27 PM
Bill Russell

Bruno
07-01-2011, 07:35 PM
Let me put out a hypothetical, lets say the late 90's Lakers made the Finals, and
a young teenaged Kobe faced off vs a PEAK MJ, now imagine Kobe absolutely LOCKING DOWN MJ and eliminating him in the process. Would you think differently of their careers?

I would. Is that what happened between KAJ and Wilt? Clue me in.

I read a few of your other posts. Aged Wilt locked up KAJ? But how young of a KAJ? How far into his career? I don't know if I'd emphasize a one time match-up considering their age difference. Did it happen more than once?

It's always been my estimation that Wilt posted brilliant numbers, even after adjusting for pace. He won, scored, rebounded, played defense. I think he is an all-time great. I just don't think his resume surpasses KAJ. Wilts peak few years surpasses KAJs by a hair, but KAJ did it for so long. He won six MVPs, six championships, played for 19 years at a very high level. League leader in WSs, 2nd in MVP award shares (Wilt is 8th).

Wilt wasn't that efficient for a big man. His career TS% is .547. Kobe Bryant has a higher career TS% than Wilt Chamberlain, to but Wilts efficiency into perspective. Even when he got over the hump with the Lakers in '72 for his second ring, he posted a PER of 17.8 for the '72 playoffs (at 35).

Wilts efficiency as a scorer, and his success in the playoffs are why it's impossible for me to give him the nod over KAJ. KAJs career TS% is .592.

KAJs teams won four more rings than Wilts. KAJ has two more MVPs than Wilt, and one more post-season MVP.

Wilts production dropped from the regular season, to the post season. That's a major pep-peeve of mine. His regular season career PER is 26.1 His playoff career PER is 22.8. When I say he underachieved in the post-season, I'm not just talking about the championships; his on-court production dropped off. I don't think a guy who notoriously dropped off in the post-season should sniff #2, IMO. KAJs PER also drops off slightly in the post-season, but the drop off isn't as drastic as Wilts, and his teams still won three times as many titles.

Also Chronz, I'm anticipating your Wilt break down analysis. I'd like to be more of a believer, but I need some assistance. I'd take your analysis as seriously as anything I'd read anywhere ese; I know it's time consuming, but are you still working on that thing we talked about last month?

Bruno
07-01-2011, 07:43 PM
Old timers want to relive the past. They will always tell the tale of how Goliath fell, coincidentally they labeled Kareem in much the same way once he became the games most dominant athlete and Wilt got to play the hero role for a few years, Wilts incredible return from knee surgery prompted this narrative. Sadly, that same injury prevented the only shot we had at a semi peak Wilt vs Kareem, but what Wilt did in spite of his debilitating injuries was impressive enough to warrant a higher stature.

Concepts like Russ being anything more than a fringe top 25 player are a result of him winning titles with stacked squads including Finals "Runs" in which all he had to do was defeat sub .500 teams on route to a somewhat compelling Finals.

Right.

Bill Russell is the hardest for me to place. I don't know where to put the guy. On one hand, he has won more than any player in league history, and he is the all-time leader in defensive win-shares (it's not close). On the other hand, he isn't a top 25 scorer of all-time, he played in a league with eight teams, and only two playoff rounds. I don't know what to do with the guy, when it comes to his all-time rank. A part of me wants to put him at #3, the other @ #10.

If so many respectable coaches, including Phil Jackson didn't refer to him as the greatest Center of all-time, I'd be more of a skeptic of what he accomplished. But these great basketball minds put him up there at the very top; I don't know if I can go against those opinions that I so respect. :shrug:

Redbull
07-01-2011, 07:50 PM
Kareem.

JordansBulls
07-01-2011, 07:54 PM
Wilt had to be traded in order to win (twice) while Kareem won a title with the franchise that drafted him. However, Kareem only won one title with the franchise that drafted him and then he went to LA and the rest is history.
Wilt's biggest strength was scoring and in the playoffs two guys in his own era had more 40+ and 30+ point games despite playing in less games.

GREATNESS ONE
07-01-2011, 08:27 PM
Ok thought about it and I'm going The Captain.

Chronz
07-01-2011, 08:50 PM
I would. Is that what happened between KAJ and Wilt? Clue me in.

I read a few of your other posts. Aged Wilt locked up KAJ? But how young of a KAJ? How far into his career? I don't know if I'd emphasize a one time match-up considering their age difference. Did it happen more than once?
Firstly, my "official" stance on the matter is that the 2 are deadlocked based on neither one being flawless and having similarly compelling strengths in the Peak vs Prime argument. Being forced to choose between one or the other, Wilt stands ahead, their battles against one another is part of the reason. I had been taking the time to write a well thought out piece detailing the matter but the importance of this question can wait no longer. Ill try to give as much information as I can right now.

We only saw 1 matchup of Wilt near his prime vs Kareem and that was their first matchup, before his season ending, career altering knee injury. In that 1 matchup Wilt took home the W and outplayed him in the process. (25-20 9/14 3BLKS vs 23-20 9-21 2BLKS)

A year after that injury Wilt leads a SEVERELY undermanned Lakers team past the 2nd best team in the league in a grueling 7 game series for the right to face the eventual champs. Now its readily acknowledged that Kareem outplayed Wilt.... BUT.... what Wilt accomplished, at age 34, post Knee OP, with a depleted team earned him respect in Milwaukee as fans began applauding and chanting his name. He played Kareem to a statistical draw and, as would usually be the case, outrebounded him.

Overall for the year, Head 2 Head, Kareem averaged roughly 30PTS (less than his average), Wilt 23 (more than average).
In the Playoffs he held Kareem to 25.0 ppg, while scoring 22.0 ppg and of course outrebounding him.


For the encore series the following year, Kareem abused the Lakers, in the first 2 games. Over the course of the growingly crucial games, Wilts strength begun to chip away at Kareem. Kareem was held to .414 shooting the final 4 games, and was outplayed in the clinching game, when Wilt heroically took over the game and came back from a double digit 4th quarter deficit, in which KAJ became Mr. Invisible. Ill post the press clippings and relevant stats when I can, while in retrospect Wilt is given too much credit for his superior teams victory, you cannot underscore what his defensive ability did to a guy who was suppose to be the games best scorer. And the bad thing is, this wouldnt be the first time KAJ looked mortal.




It's always been my estimation that Wilt posted brilliant numbers, even after adjusting for pace. He won, scored, rebounded, played defense. I think he is an all-time great. I just don't think his resume surpasses KAJ. Wilts peak few years surpasses KAJs by a hair, but KAJ did it for so long. He won six MVPs, six championships, played for 19 years at a very high level. League leader in WSs, 2nd in MVP award shares (Wilt is 8th).
When I first got your PM the first thing I wanted to emphasize was that one aspect that you neglect to consider is the sheer amount of minutes Wilt played. I know you mentioned adjusting for pace, but thats not what Im mentioning, Im speaking about the load those minutes entail. Pace adjustments hurt Wilt because those measures would likely improve if Wilt was optimized with current coaching philosophies. Studies have shown no direct correlation, if anything players improve the more PT they get, but personally I have found there is an optimal zone (generally 30-36MPG). I know there are TONS of variables to consider on top of these, but from an initial, statistical starting point, this would have to be considered.



Wilt wasn't that efficient for a big man. His career TS% is .547. Kobe Bryant has a higher career TS% than Wilt Chamberlain, to but Wilts efficiency into perspective. Even when he got over the hump with the Lakers in '72 for his second ring, he posted a PER of 17.8 for the '72 playoffs (at 35).

I wouldnt be surprised to see Wilt post Kobe like #'s offensively and Kareem posting MJ type #'s but could you show me your estimates for Wilts usage. When Wilt was asked to lessen the load, he responded by posting EPIC efficiency and this was a much older Wilt. Kobe has yet to display this trait.

Unlike MJ however, Kareem was often exposed or outplayed, ultimately resulting in some playoff blunders of which cant be ignored in this comparison.


Wilts efficiency as a scorer, and his success in the playoffs are why it's impossible for me to give him the nod over KAJ. KAJs career TS% is .592.

KAJs teams won four more rings than Wilts. KAJ has two more MVPs than Wilt, and one more post-season MVP.

Its only when you dissect the HOW and WHY of their accomplishments that you see the flaws in mentioning them as equally important credentials. Its quickly becoming one of the more annoying cliche lines, that Kareem best combined Wilts individual supremacy with Russell's team dominance. If only it were true, why would Kareem winning a title as a defensive liability who couldnt rebound separate him from Wilt? As impressive as Kareem was for an old guy, he was indeed removed from his prime. Wilt was always his teams best player during his title runs.

Regarding Wilts playoff success, I argue that he had more success than Kareem based on the teams talent level.



Wilts production dropped from the regular season, to the post season. That's a major pep-peeve of mine. His regular season career PER is 26.1 His playoff career PER is 22.8. When I say he underachieved in the post-season, I'm not just talking about the championships; his on-court production dropped off. I don't think a guy who notoriously dropped off in the post-season should sniff #2, IMO. KAJs PER also drops off slightly in the post-season, but the drop off isn't as drastic as Wilts, and his teams still won three times as many titles.

Yea but how do you factor in the fact that Wilt was never exposed as severely as Kareem was, on both ends? Also there are more intricate playoff vs regular season measures, the lack of context in this method is that you weigh all the games equally regardless of the point in the players career. Im not saying your wrong Im just citing the first variable we must account for.

Chronz
07-01-2011, 08:56 PM
Wilt had to be traded in order to win (twice) while Kareem won a title with the franchise that drafted him. However, Kareem only won one title with the franchise that drafted him and then he went to LA and the rest is history.
Wilt's biggest strength was scoring and in the playoffs two guys in his own era had more 40+ and 30+ point games despite playing in less games.

Wilt would have won more had he stayed in Philly, his squads there were stacked they just had bad luck with their health the year prior.

Bruno
07-01-2011, 09:02 PM
Firstly, my "official" stance on the matter is that the 2 are deadlocked based on neither one being flawless and having similarly compelling strengths in the Peak vs Prime argument. Being forced to choose between one or the other, Wilt stands ahead, their battles against one another is part of the reason. I had been taking the time to write a well thought out piece detailing the matter but the importance of this question can wait no longer. Ill try to give as much information as I can right now.

We only saw 1 matchup of Wilt near his prime vs Kareem and that was their first matchup, before his season ending, career altering knee injury. In that 1 matchup Wilt took home the W and outplayed him in the process. (25-20 9/14 3BLKS vs 23-20 9-21 2BLKS)

A year after that injury Wilt leads a SEVERELY undermanned Lakers team past the 2nd best team in the league in a grueling 7 game series for the right to face the eventual champs. Now its readily acknowledged that Kareem outplayed Wilt.... BUT.... what Wilt accomplished, at age 34, post Knee OP, with a depleted team earned him respect in Milwaukee as fans began applauding and chanting his name. He played Kareem to a statistical draw and, as would usually be the case, outrebounded him.

Overall for the year, Head 2 Head, Kareem averaged roughly 30PTS (less than his average), Wilt 23 (more than average).
In the Playoffs he held Kareem to 25.0 ppg, while scoring 22.0 ppg and of course outrebounding him.


For the encore Kareem abused the Lakers, in the first 2 games. Over the course of the growingly crucial games, Wilts strength begun to chip away at Kareem. Kareem was held to .414 shooting, and was outplayed n the clinching game, when Wilt heroically took over the game and came back from a double digit 4th quarter deficit, in which KAJ became Mr. Invisible. Ill post the press clippings and relevant stats when I can, while in retrospective Wilt is given too much credit for his superior teams victory, you cannot underscore what his defensive ability did to a guy who was suppose to be the games best scorer. And the bad thing is, this wouldnt be the first time KAJ looked mortal.




When I first got your PM the first thing I wanted to emphasize was that one aspect that you neglect to consider is the sheer amount of minutes Wilt played. I know you mentioned adjusting for pace, but thats not what Im mentioning, Im speaking about the load those minutes entail. Pace adjustments hurt Wilt because those measures would likely improve if Wilt was optimized with current coaching philosophies. Studies have shown no direct correlation, if anything players improve the more PT they get, but personally I have found there is an optimal zone (generally 30-36MPG). I know there are TONS of variables to consider on top of these, but from an initial, statistical starting point, this would have to be considered.



I wouldnt be surprised to see Wilt post Kobe like #'s offensively and Kareem posting MJ type #'s but could you show me your estimates for Wilts usage. When Wilt was asked to lessen the load, he responded by posting EPIC efficiency and this was a much older Wilt. Kobe has yet to display this trait.

Unlike MJ however, Kareem was often exposed or outplayed, ultimately resulting in some playoff blunders of which cant be ignored in this comparison.


Its only when you dissect the HOW and WHY of their accomplishments that you see the flaws in mentioning them as equally important credentials. Its quickly becoming one of the more annoying cliche lines, that Kareem best combined Wilts individual supremacy with Russell's team dominance. If only it were true, why would Kareem winning a title as a defensive liability who couldnt rebound separate him from Wilt? As impressive as Kareem was for an old guy, he was indeed removed from his prime. Wilt was always his teams best player during his title runs.

Regarding Wilts playoff success, I argue that he had more success than Kareem based on the teams talent level.



Yea but how do you factor in the fact that Wilt was never exposed as severely as Kareem was, on both ends? Also there are more intricate playoff vs regular season measures, the lack of context in this method is that you weigh all the games equally regardless of the point in the players career. Im not saying your wrong Im just citing the first variable we must account for.

Good stuff. I'm about to go out of town for a couple of days; I want to give any responses time so I can soak in everything that you mentioned. We'll probably finish this convo at a later point assuming this thread will be closed by then :cheers:

I think this is a great debate, with a lot of different things to consider.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-01-2011, 09:19 PM
Russell is getting shafted here. But forget about Kobe, look at how many votes Wilt has. It must suck to beat up on a guy for your entire career, only to have him surpass you in countless player ranking polls decades later by people who never watched that domination. [/B]



I have Wilt after MJ, KAJ, Magic, and Russell, at least.

Yeah I said that in another post. I didn't watch him in the sixties but from what I've read and from what I've seen on TV it felt like Russell would always beat Wilt in a playoff series no matter what team Wilt was on. Also to let everyone know the NBA Final's MVP is named after Bill Russell, not MJ, not Kareem, not Magic, not Wilt, but Russell.

Jewelz0376
07-01-2011, 09:44 PM
Yeah I said that in another post. I didn't watch him in the sixties but from what I've read and from what I've seen on TV it felt like Russell would always beat Wilt in a playoff series no matter what team Wilt was on. Also to let everyone know the NBA Final's MVP is named after Bill Russell, not MJ, not Kareem, not Magic, not Wilt, but Russell.

So what does that mean?

D-Will4Prez
07-01-2011, 10:19 PM
Wilt. That guy is inhuman. Followed by Kareem, Bird, and Russell (in that order).

D-Will4Prez
07-01-2011, 10:30 PM
Wilt averaged 48.5 minutes per game in 61-62 season. Only the best in the world could average more than a full basketball game per game. Yes, Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest basketball player ever.

JordansBulls
07-01-2011, 10:37 PM
Wilt averaged 48.5 minutes per game in 61-62 season. Only the best in the world could average more than a full basketball game per game. Yes, Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest basketball player ever.

Um, no he is not.


You talk about what Wilt did in the regular season, which is fine and all, but when talking about the best, what they did in the playoffs and finals is what matters. Wilt getting 55 rebounds against Russell in a meaningless regular season game doesn't matter much does it? Especially when in the finals he averages 11.7 ppg against him one year.

Wilt lost 5 series with Homecourt Advantage, 5 of them.

Here were the years.

Wilt Chamberlain (lost in ’60-61, ’65-66, ’67-68, ’68-69, ’72-73)

Now I know what you are going to say that Jordan never played the Celtics. Well how about why did Wilt lose with Homecourt Advantage to the Syracuse Nationals in Round 1 when the Nationals were 38-41. Not only did he lose but he got swept.

Wilt's scoring from regular season to playoffs went down every single year of his career (sometimes by a lot) on lower efficiency (.547 to .523). Obviously facing better teams and facing Russell (who held Wilt to 5.7 ppg under his career average in their 147 meetings) had something to do with it, but Wilt failed to step up his game and it didn't help his teams in the playoffs.

In the regular season , Wilt was on some of the best teams in his era. Most seem to assume that Wilt just didn't have the supporting cast to contend with the greatest dynasty ever. This is not the case. His 1967 Sixers were named the best team ever in 1980, and he had that team's core (Wilt, Greer, Walker, Cunningham, Jackson) for 3 years straight, and also had the best SG in West and best SF in Baylor (up to that point) for a couple years after, forming a trio that Wilt himself said he thought could go down as the greatest team of all time. Talented rosters that won a lot in the regular season and had high expectations in the playoffs.

When the playoffs arrived, however, it was a different story. Wilt's failures:

1961: Wilt's 46-33 Warriors are swept by the 38-41 Nationals

1962: Wilt, at the height of his scoring prowess having averaged 50.4 ppg in the regular season, is held to a season-low 22 points in the 7th and deciding game by Bill Russell

1966: Wilt's 55-25 Sixers lose 4-1 to the 54-26 Celtics

Explain to me how the Sixers could go 40-40 in 1964-1965 and only lose game 7 by 1 point against the Celtics who were 62-18. But yet the next year the Sixers have the HCA and better record and are 55-25 and the Celtics are 54-26 and then the Sixers lose quicker despite being a much better team in '65-66 than in '64-65 and the Celtics being a worse team in '65-66 than in '64-65?



1967: Wilt's single impressive playoff run, nearly averaging a triple double. The 68-13 Sixers soundly beat the Celtics 4-1, proving that this was a championship caliber core

1968: The same Sixers (with Wilt winning season MVP) go 62-20 and lose to the 54-28 Celtics in 7 games after being up 3-1. In Game 7 Wilt did not attempt a field goal in the 2nd half

1969: One of the most talented trios ever in Wilt, West, and Baylor go 55-25 and win the regular season series 4-2 against the 48-34 Celtics, proving again Wilt had the talent to beat them. The Lakers were heavily favored against the Celtics in the Finals. But again, Wilt laid another 7th game egg against the Celtics when he "hurt his leg" with 6 minutes to go and did not play the rest of the game

1970: Wilt's Lakers return to the Finals, this time against the Knicks. Reed missed game 6 due to injury and Wilt demolished the Knicks to send it to a 7th game. So what happened in Game 7? You guessed it: another stinker by Wilt's 21 points (1-11 from the line) against a hobbling, injured Reed and his backups.


And let's be real about something: In the 1970 Finals, the Lakers were up 20 points in Game 5 and Willis Reed was hurt and the Knicks still won that game. Game 6, Willis Reed missed that game and the Lakers won and in game 7 Willis Reed was still hurt and he came in to play in the game. He only scored like 4 points in it and thus that is why his stats were down. So don't give me this mess about how good Wilt was when he couldn't dominate a player that was injured.
Frazier took over Game 7 and that's why the Knicks won. Thus what was Wilt doing in Game 7 in the Finals? He couldn't even dominate a hubbled Willis Reed.


1973: Wilt's 60-22 Lakers lose 4-1 to the 57-25 Knicks


Wilt lost 5 series when his teams were the higher seed. He failed to step up in 4 Game 7s. By what standards was Wilt an excellent playoff performer if he couldn't lead his teams to victory when he had great opportunities to do so? Certainly not GOAT standards. Jordan never lost a series in which the Bulls were the higher seed/better record or even same record.

Wilt, despite all his individual brilliance in the regular season, was a chronic underachiever in the playoffs. To paraphrase Barry, Wilt was simply a loser.


Now tell me, how do you average 50 ppg for a season but in game 7 of the playoffs you score 22? How could anyone be considered the best when in the most important games they show up like that?

Also what about this what Bill Russell even noticed.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1969.htm

The Lakers were heavily favored to win the 1969 NBA Finals against the old, battered Celtics, but then Chamberlain became the victim of one of the most controversial coaching decisions in NBA history. In Game 7, Wilt hurt his leg with six minutes left to play, with the Lakers trailing by nine points. The Celtics won, 108-106. When Chamberlain had asked out of the game, the Lakers had been trailing by nine points, but then mounted a comeback to pull within one by the time he asked back in; this caused some to assume that Chamberlain had not really been injured, but instead had given up and "copped out" of the game when it looked as though the Lakers would lose. Because of this, some branded him a scapegoat and a quitter. Even Bill Russell ridiculed him, which almost caused Chamberlain to end their friendship..


In 1970, the acquisition of the sharpshooting guard Gail Goodrich helped with the Lakers' offensive firepower with the loss of Baylor. In the NBA Finals, the Lakers were matched up against the New York Knicks, one of the best defensive teams of the post-Russell-Celtics era. Both teams fought a hard, grueling series, but in Game 5, Chamberlain's opposing center Willis Reed suffered a serious thigh injury. The Knicks won that game, but they were demolished in Game 6 with Chamberlain's strong offense, and they looked doomed in Game 7 without their starting center. However, Reed limped onto the court, won the opening tip-off against Chamberlain, and scored the first four points, inspiring his team to one of the most famous playoff upsets of all time. Although Reed was able to play only a fraction of the game, and could hardly move when he did play, Chamberlain still scored only 21 points (his season average had been 27.3) on only 16 shots, quite few in a Game 7. Further, he shot an abysmal 1-of-11 from the foul line, making the game perhaps his greatest on-court failure.

1-11 from the foul in Game 7 of the NBA Finals and this is supposed to be the GOAT?

Series with HCA.

Michael Jordan 24-0 in series with HCA
Kareem 34-5 in series with HCA
Russell 22-1 in series with HCA
Magic 29-3 in series with HCA
Bird 24-7 in series with HCA
Wilt 13-5 in series with HCA

D-Will4Prez
07-01-2011, 10:53 PM
That **** about Wilt "copping out" is ********. Why would a player who knocked the Celts out of what would have been their 12th finals appearance in 12 years, won finals MVP in '72, and would've won finals MVP in '67 had there been such a thing, chicken out of the finals minutes of game 7 in the NBA finals? It makes no sense.

D-Will4Prez
07-01-2011, 10:57 PM
His FT shooting was horrible yes, but I have a hard time giving GOAT to a guy who's career season averages were so much lower than Wilt's and couldn't even play close to the same # of minutes Wilt could. I don't get into advanced stats and whatnot so you can discount whatever I say if you like, but with all the records Wilt broke and still holds today, I don't see how it could be anyone else.

JordansBulls
07-01-2011, 11:03 PM
His FT shooting was horrible yes, but I have a hard time giving GOAT to a guy who's career season averages were so much lower than Wilt's and couldn't even play close to the same # of minutes Wilt could. I don't get into advanced stats and whatnot so you can discount whatever I say if you like, but with all the records Wilt broke and still holds today, I don't see how it could be anyone else.

And what records did he set when it mattered in the playoffs? Scoring was his best feat. He played in more playoff games than Jerry West and Elgin Baylor and yet both West and Baylor had more 40+ games and 30+ games than Wilt.
Not only that but Wilt had to get traded in order to win. Part of being the best is turning a franchise into a champion. Anyone can win going to another team getting traded where established stars are.
Wilt went to the Lakers when West had already been in the finals 6x before Wilt got there.
West averaged 37.9 ppg in the finals in Wilt's first year there while Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg.

Chronz
07-01-2011, 11:06 PM
So what does that mean?

That coming first = greater player

D-Will4Prez
07-01-2011, 11:10 PM
Meh, it just depends on how much value you put on playoff statistics to factor who is better between MJ and Wilt, but I don't see how Kareem/Bird/Russell/Magic are better than Wilt overall like you seem to be arguing in earlier posts, JB.

JordansBulls
07-01-2011, 11:14 PM
Meh, it just depends on how much value you put on playoff statistics to factor who is better between MJ and Wilt, but I don't see how Kareem/Bird/Russell/Magic are better than Wilt overall like you seem to be arguing in earlier posts, JB.

MJ/Kareem and Russell all have not only more titles but more overall accolades than Wilt.

MJ has the highest PER in the season and playoffs and the highest WS/PER 48 in the season and playoffs along with the most total playoff win shares.

Kareem has the most career points, most total season win shares.

MJ/Kareem/Russell have 5 and 6 MVP's with MJ having 7 Sporting News MVP's to Kareem's 6. Wilt has 4 overall. So Wilt has less MVP's and less titles and overall once PACE is factored in is not even at the top in production.

avrpatsfan
07-01-2011, 11:37 PM
I can't believe Russell isn't getting more praise. I guess most voters didn't read the NBA bible, the book of basketball.

D-Will4Prez
07-01-2011, 11:37 PM
PER is not an accurate system of measurement. It's great for general use, but you can't say one player > another based on PER, but once again, I don't really put a lot of worth in advanced statistics.

Bill Russell should NOT have won regular season MVP in '62 over Chamberlain, it's just ridiculous that that even happened. Kareem has a case, but he had Magic passing to him for his whole career, whereas Wilt never played with any all-time greats (sorry Cousy) until he got to LA. He played on good teams yes, but again, no all-time greats. By the time he got to LA he had a difficult time fitting where he wasn't the hands down #1 option on the team, which explains the 11.7ppg. Plus he was fairly old by that time.

tredigs
07-01-2011, 11:52 PM
^ You do not know Kareem was already past his prime by the time he had Magic on board in LA (though still entirely dominant - and the best player on the championship team in Magic's first season despite not winning Finals MVP)? You should do yourself a favor and read up/watch Kareem's truly dominant years with the Bucks before posting in this thread again my man.

Chest Rockwell
07-01-2011, 11:54 PM
Abdul-Jabbar for me.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2011, 12:06 AM
Chronz, you are a great basketball mind. Its difficult, yet rewarding, to debate you.

WorldWideJames
07-02-2011, 12:09 AM
#2 is so hard for me. It fluctuates constantly and I can make a legitimate argument for Bird, KAJ, Magic, Wilt, or even Hakeem and Shaq. I went with Wilt today.

I know Wilt wasn't the greatest winner, but Magic was 5-4 in finals and Bird was 3-2. They lost too. You can't overlook his stats or the fact that he eventually figured IT out and became a team player.

Tight race.

MinVikesFan
07-02-2011, 12:14 AM
Where's lebron haha?

tredigs
07-02-2011, 12:16 AM
Chronz, you are a great basketball mind. Its difficult, yet rewarding, to debate you.

It honestly just takes a great deal of time/effort in an argument like this. When I disagree and have strong counterpoints (Kareem V. Wilt, for example), his comments are thorough enough that they can't just be lambasted, and if you're not ready to begin a 3 page diatribe, don't even bother. Relentless to make said points, young Chronz iz. Respect - booyakasha.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-02-2011, 12:29 AM
When is number three going to go up? Is it going up tomorrow or Tuesday because of Independence Day weekend?

Chronz
07-02-2011, 12:29 AM
You talk about what Wilt did in the regular season, which is fine and all, but when talking about the best, what they did in the playoffs and finals is what matters. Wilt getting 55 rebounds against Russell in a meaningless regular season game doesn't matter much does it? Especially when in the finals he averages 11.7 ppg against him one year.
No the Regular Season still matters but Im all for considering their playoff history.


Wilt lost 5 series with Homecourt Advantage, 5 of them.

Here were the years.
These facts mean nothing on their own so yes, lets review the years.


Wilt Chamberlain (lost in ’60-61, ’65-66, ’67-68, ’68-69, ’72-73)

Now I know what you are going to say that Jordan never played the Celtics. Well how about why did Wilt lose with Homecourt Advantage to the Syracuse Nationals in Round 1 when the Nationals were 38-41. Not only did he lose but he got swept.

LOL you should stop copying and pasting your arguments, MJ has already been voted AHEAD of Wilt so NO, this has NOTHING to do with MJ.

Anyways back to Wilt, he lost to the Nationals because they were the superior TEAM. Ive gone through this with you before MJ but measuring teams by simple win-loss tallies isnt sufficient enough to determine any sort of team placement, not when there are more useful measures available.

Consider the ENTIRETY of the statistics. The Nationals had both the higher offensive and defensive efficiency ranks. Then consider that Wilts best sidekick (Arizin) was nearing retirement and shot a horrible % that series. Couldve been an injury or considering he had become more and more reliant on his shot, he couldve just had experienced a cold stretch.


Wilt's scoring from regular season to playoffs went down every single year of his career (sometimes by a lot) on lower efficiency (.547 to .523). Obviously facing better teams and facing Russell (who held Wilt to 5.7 ppg under his career average in their 147 meetings) had something to do with it, but Wilt failed to step up his game and it didn't help his teams in the playoffs.

Thats all well and good but its as if you can completely ignore his dominating playoff runs all for the sake of overselling his failures. He didnt have the talent Russ had, he usually lost to better teams, and he usually pushed his teams beyond their limit imo.


In the regular season , Wilt was on some of the best teams in his era. Most seem to assume that Wilt just didn't have the supporting cast to contend with the greatest dynasty ever. This is not the case. His 1967 Sixers were named the best team ever in 1980, and he had that team's core (Wilt, Greer, Walker, Cunningham, Jackson) for 3 years straight,
LMFAO, well at least you had more sense than Simmons did when he tried to claim Wilt had the teammates in place to defeat the Celtics starting from year 1. But you skip to the mid 60's and claim him failing to win after a midseason trade and after losing his entire frontcourt to injury somehow dissolves the notion that Wilt didnt have the teammates.



and also had the best SG in West and best SF in Baylor (up to that point) for a couple years after, forming a trio that Wilt himself said he thought could go down as the greatest team of all time. Talented rosters that won a lot in the regular season and had high expectations in the playoffs.
Nice story but it completely ignores the fact that Baylor was only healthy once (their first year together, the Breda Kolf season) and had already declined after a previous injury so by the time Wilt came around he was done as a superstar. He was a nice role player but Russ had the depth to go with the talent.


When the playoffs arrived, however, it was a different story. Wilt's failures:

1961: Wilt's 46-33 Warriors are swept by the 38-41 Nationals
Already detailed above, he lost to a better team with his sidekick being a no show.


1962: Wilt, at the height of his scoring prowess having averaged 50.4 ppg in the regular season, is held to a season-low 22 points in the 7th and deciding game by Bill Russell

Explain to me how Wilt pushing one of the greatest dynasties to 7 games with the talent around him is a bad thing.


1966: Wilt's 55-25 Sixers lose 4-1 to the 54-26 Celtics
The Sixers lost but Wilt dominated Russell, outscored him 28-14, outrebounding him 30-26 including a magnificent game 5 (46-34) vs Russ (18-31 game). And AGAIN, the Celtics had the superior TEAM. Look at the roster and efficiency scores for evidence.


Explain to me how the Sixers could go 40-40 in 1964-1965 and only lose game 7 by 1 point against the Celtics who were 62-18. But yet the next year the Sixers have the HCA and better record and are 55-25 and the Celtics are 54-26 and then the Sixers lose quicker despite being a much better team in '65-66 than in '64-65 and the Celtics being a worse team in '65-66 than in '64-65?

That is odd, without making any accusations I dont see the correlation your trying to allude to. I cant explain how it happen, I can offer theories but they will fall on deaf ears, all I can tell you is that it wasnt because of Wilt, he was largely the same player. Just because you have a miraculous run one year doesnt mean you will replicate it the following year.


1967: Wilt's single impressive playoff run, nearly averaging a triple double. The 68-13 Sixers soundly beat the Celtics 4-1, proving that this was a championship caliber core

The season that puts him at #2 convincingly IMO.


1968: The same Sixers (with Wilt winning season MVP) go 62-20 and lose to the 54-28 Celtics in 7 games after being up 3-1. In Game 7 Wilt did not attempt a field goal in the 2nd half

He got like 2-6 touches during that span (some offensive rebounds), more importantly he didnt have any of his teammates from that championship core. The sole strength of the Sixers was their frontcourt dominance, first they lost Billy Cunningham to a wrist injury, then in G.5 Luke Jackson gos down with a leg injury, all this with Wilt already nursing 2 arthritic knees. Despite all this Wilt lost that game seven, by 4 points. Thats a good showing in my book.


1969: One of the most talented trios ever in Wilt, West, and Baylor go 55-25 and win the regular season series 4-2 against the 48-34 Celtics, proving again Wilt had the talent to beat them. The Lakers were heavily favored against the Celtics in the Finals. But again, Wilt laid another 7th game egg against the Celtics when he "hurt his leg" with 6 minutes to go and did not play the rest of the game
Celtics were an old team with a modern approach to the game, they limited veterans minutes and rode/developed the youngsters. Again, if you examine their efficiency scores, the Celtics posted the better #'s during the regular season. And any chance the Lakers had of winning that series went out the window when Butch refused to allow his star to finish the game.


1970: Wilt's Lakers return to the Finals, this time against the Knicks. Reed missed game 6 due to injury and Wilt demolished the Knicks to send it to a 7th game. So what happened in Game 7? You guessed it: another stinker by Wilt's 21 points (1-11 from the line) against a hobbling, injured Reed and his backups.

Yea lets completely ignore the fact that Wilt had just gotten back from what many considered a career threatening injury, virtually every medical opinion wrote him off for the season, he was back in time to lead his team to the Finals against the heavily FAVORED Knicks.



1973: Wilt's 60-22 Lakers lose 4-1 to the 57-25 Knicks
Look I know its easy to ignore the variables but at least you finally found a series where the Lakers had better #'s during the regular season. And while you can hold that against him, I know the Lakers that year were decimated by injuries, their best players were all at the very end of their careers, West had no knees, Happy had just come back from injury. The Knicks were loaded with 6 HOF'ers who were much healthier and despite that 5 game romp, every game was contested down to the final moments.


Wilt lost 5 series when his teams were the higher seed. He failed to step up in 4 Game 7s. By what standards was Wilt an excellent playoff performer if he couldn't lead his teams to victory when he had great opportunities to do so? Certainly not GOAT standards. Jordan never lost a series in which the Bulls were the higher seed/better record or even same record.

I question your ability to measure a teams level of performance and therefore its expectations.


Series with HCA.

Michael Jordan 24-0 in series with HCA
Kareem 34-5 in series with HCA
Russell 22-1 in series with HCA
Magic 29-3 in series with HCA
Bird 24-7 in series with HCA
Wilt 13-5 in series with HCA
Refer to this thread for a clue: http://prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=544496

D-Will4Prez
07-02-2011, 12:35 AM
Chronz, you are a god. :worthy:

LakersIn5
07-02-2011, 01:59 AM
of all the legends in the poll. wilt had the worst supporting cast.

Chronz
07-02-2011, 02:34 AM
of all the legends in the poll. wilt had the worst supporting cast.
Agreed, he got to play with an old Arizin, an old Baylor and people take it to mean as if he always had stars around him.

THE GIPPER
07-02-2011, 02:57 AM
why does kobe have 14 votes :facepalm:

Sadds The Gr8
07-02-2011, 03:04 AM
Chronz went hammer on this thread...

Baller1
07-02-2011, 03:04 AM
I'll say Kareem, despite the fact that he's a douche.

Baller1
07-02-2011, 03:12 AM
Holy **** Chronz... :laugh:

jimm120
07-02-2011, 03:39 AM
Why isn't Patrick Ewing an option and why is Hakeem there? Ewing was definitely better than him!!!!


:mad::(:confused::cry:

LakersIn5
07-02-2011, 03:52 AM
Agreed, he got to play with an old Arizin, an old Baylor and people take it to mean as if he always had stars around him.

not to take anything away from russell but if he and wilt exchanged teams before im pretty sure that wilt would have had won more than what russell had won.



and the finals mvp will be named after him. :p

Raph12
07-02-2011, 04:12 AM
Kareem gets the nod here...

A list like this is extremely debatable though; you could argue accolades vs stats vs skills vs dominance, etc, etc.

Raoul Duke
07-02-2011, 10:33 AM
Awesome debate, but the most convincing stuff has been in favor of KAJ.

KnicksorBust
07-02-2011, 11:15 AM
of all the legends in the poll. wilt had the worst supporting cast.

You could make an argument for Hakeem. That '94 team had Vernon Maxwell as it's #2 option.

In regards to the poll, I refuse to put Wilt #2 because he was obsessed with stats to the detriment of his teams. I'll take Magic.

Brief Resume
19.5ppg / 11.2 apg / 7.2 rpg career averages
3x Regular Season MVP
3x Finals MVP
9x All-NBA First Team
5x NBA Champion

NYKalltheway
07-02-2011, 11:20 AM
I got Magic too.. Can't believe he fell so much in the votes from the other two guys.

1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbaar
4) Larry Bird
5) Oscar Robertson
6) Wilt Chamberlain

if the list was up to me

WorldWideJames
07-02-2011, 12:08 PM
I always think Oscar and Russell get too much love. Top 10 players, certainly. But I don't think Oscar is top 5. That guy couldn't get out of the first round until he had Kareem.

Chronz
07-02-2011, 01:47 PM
You could make an argument for Hakeem. That '94 team had Vernon Maxwell as it's #2 option.

In regards to the poll, I refuse to put Wilt #2 because he was obsessed with stats to the detriment of his teams. I'll take Magic.

Care to explain how Magic wanting to dominate the ball while getting rid of a teammate and a coach along the way is any different of a character flaw? I don't believe you know enough about these 2 if that's your sole argument. Surely you have some actual examples of their career performance to lend credence to your claim of cancerous play, what you will find is that an example will hold true fire both of these players.

Chronz
07-02-2011, 01:48 PM
Awesome debate, but the most convincing stuff has been in favor of KAJ.

Can you plz link me to these posts, I haven't gone through the entire thread yet.

Chronz
07-02-2011, 01:52 PM
I got Magic too.. Can't believe he fell so much in the votes from the other two guys.

1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson
3) Kareem Abdul-Jabbaar
4) Larry Bird
5) Oscar Robertson
6) Wilt Chamberlain

if the list was up to me

That's an awful list, big o? Seriously? I rly how you have a better reason other than triple double omg

JordansBulls
07-02-2011, 01:52 PM
of all the legends in the poll. wilt had the worst supporting cast.

Disagree.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1967.htm#

PHI. G FG-FGA FT-FTA REB AST PF PTS
Greer 6 59-148 38-46 48 37 23 156
Walker 6 46-102 48-62 53 20 23 140
Jones 6 50-110 21-28 21 32 22 121
Cunningham 6 48-107 22-40 34 18 27 118
Chamberlain 6 42-75 22-72 171 41 16 106


He was 5th in scoring on his team in 1967 Finals and he got to play with West who averaged nearly 38 ppg in the finals and Baylor. Not only that but they had been in the finals 6x prior to Wilt ever coming.

Chronz
07-02-2011, 01:53 PM
I always think Oscar and Russell get too much love. Top 10 players, certainly. But I don't think Oscar is top 5. That guy couldn't get out of the first round until he had Kareem.

Big o can't cut top 10, he's more in the 14/20 range with guys like d rob

jp611
07-02-2011, 01:58 PM
Bill Russell>Wilt Chamberlain

Don't get that confused people

jp611
07-02-2011, 02:00 PM
It's wrong to say that Chamberlain had a worst supporting cast than Russell... he didnt, he just wasnt a team player and was a ME ME ME guy, he wanted to break every record, he had like 9 different coaches in his 14 year career or whatever it was, he was a cancer to teams and thats why he was traded twice for next to nothing

Raoul Duke
07-02-2011, 02:28 PM
Can you plz link me to these posts, I haven't gone through the entire thread yet.

Thats cute. You quoted most of it already.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-02-2011, 02:39 PM
Why is Kobe even on this poll? Doesn't even deserve to be on the poll.

GREATNESS ONE
07-02-2011, 02:44 PM
Why is Kobe even on this poll? Doesn't even deserve to be on the poll.

:punish

Chronz
07-02-2011, 02:45 PM
It's wrong to say that Chamberlain had a worst supporting cast than Russell... he didnt, he just wasnt a team player and was a ME ME ME guy, he wanted to break every record, he had like 9 different coaches in his 14 year career or whatever it was, he was a cancer to teams and thats why he was traded twice for next to nothing
No im positive that russ had better teammates, in most cases he had a huge advantages.

I welcome any. analysis which backs your opinion tho.

Chronz
07-02-2011, 02:46 PM
Thats cute. You quoted most of it already.

I wasnt trying to be clever, I really was hoping you found something I didn't. If theres something I didn't quote that you find compelling point me to it plz. Most of the stuff I found was misleading or downright false.

Did you make any claims of your own?

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-02-2011, 02:50 PM
:punish

He doesn't though.

Chronz
07-02-2011, 02:54 PM
Disagree.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1967.htm#

PHI. G FG-FGA FT-FTA REB AST PF PTS
Greer 6 59-148 38-46 48 37 23 156
Walker 6 46-102 48-62 53 20 23 140
Jones 6 50-110 21-28 21 32 22 121
Cunningham 6 48-107 22-40 34 18 27 118
Chamberlain 6 42-75 22-72 171 41 16 106

Nice, thank you for proving his point. Its shame Wilt didn't get this kind of support often, heck even when he had the same teammates they didn't have the same luck in terms of health.



He was 5th in scoring on his team in 1967 Finals
A team he would only have intact for 1 season, a team he led to one of the most impressive seasons ever.


and he got to play with West who averaged nearly 38 ppg in the finals and Baylor. Not only that but they had been in the finals 6x prior to Wilt ever coming.
Yes, SIX FINALS. Meaning the duo had aged considerably before Wilt arrived. He had Baylor for one season.

TRY AGAIN

KnicksorBust
07-02-2011, 03:05 PM
Care to explain how Magic wanting to dominate the ball while getting rid of a teammate and a coach along the way is any different of a character flaw? I don't believe you know enough about these 2 if that's your sole argument. Surely you have some actual examples of their career performance to lend credence to your claim of cancerous play, what you will find is that an example will hold true fire both of these players.

By my recollection Magic had huge issues with two coaches early in his career. Wilt had issues with 7 coaches throughout his career. Magic had an issue sharing the ball with Norm Nixon, another PG, early in his career. Wilt publicly berated teammates throughout his career and was so disliked around the league that the Lakers voted down trading for him in 1965 by a vote of 9 to 2. Wilt was traded multiple times for discounts because he was such a cancer. Magic wasn't going anywhere.

There is Wilt's desire to never foul out of a game to the point where he would stop playing defense when he got in foul trouble. There is Chamberlain leading the league in assists and becoming so obsessed with it that he was questioning scorekeepers during the games about assists and checking during timeouts to see how many he had.

This is not even scratching the surface of his flaws in the playoffs. He's on a short list of All-Time Greats whose numbers got significantly worse in the and whose game shrank in countless big moments. Also let's not forget that he was a liability at the end of games because he couldn't shoot free throws.

I'm interested to hear you make a compelling case against Magic other than he was a jerk early in his career. It's not much of a character flaw when you are winning titles in 2 of the first 3 seasons of your career. However if you are Wilt Chamberlain averaging over 44.8ppg, your teammates don't like you, and your team goes 31-49... that's a different story.

Raoul Duke
07-02-2011, 03:16 PM
I wasnt trying to be clever, I really was hoping you found something I didn't. If theres something I didn't quote that you find compelling point me to it plz. Most of the stuff I found was misleading or downright false.

Did you make any claims of your own?

Dude I was so late to the party that pretty much everything I had to say had been said. I doubt I saw anything of substance that you missed or that would change your opinion.

It's a really close call, and the kicker for me is probably the fact that I actually got to see Kareem play a little. It's a comparison that forces people to reach a little on both sides, if you ask me.

JordansBulls
07-02-2011, 03:17 PM
Nice, thank you for proving his point. Its shame Wilt didn't get this kind of support often, heck even when he had the same teammates they didn't have the same luck in terms of health.


A team he would only have intact for 1 season, a team he led to one of the most impressive seasons ever.


Yes, SIX FINALS. Meaning the duo had aged considerably before Wilt arrived. He had Baylor for one season.

TRY AGAIN
How is it proving that he didn't have support when scoring was his greatest attibute and he is in his prime and he gets outscored by his teammates (4 of them) in the finals? It means needed a butt load of talent to even win. Not to mention he had to get traded in order to win.

PatsSoxKnicks
07-02-2011, 03:26 PM
I went with Magic, although admittedly I didn't think about it in that much detail.

Edit: Maybe should've gone Wilt instead.

I nominate Charles Barkley, probably one of the more underrated players.

Chronz
07-02-2011, 07:56 PM
How is it proving that he didn't have support when scoring was his greatest attibute and he is in his prime and he gets outscored by his teammates (4 of them) in the finals?
Because you had to fast forward like 6 years to find a single team and your barometer for measuring his supporting cast is limited to a glance at what I'm assuming are the scoring ranks of the finals.

Then you had to resort to mentioning elgin baylor as if name recognition tops actual analysis.


It means needed a butt load of talent to even win. Not to mention he had to get traded in order to win.
False, it means he needed talent comparable to the top teams of his time. Your statistical evidence isn't backing your opinion.

Chronz
07-02-2011, 08:02 PM
Dude I was so late to the party that pretty much everything I had to say had been said. I doubt I saw anything of substance that you missed or that would change your opinion.
I thought you felt otherwise, whatever the case its not too late to voice your opinion until the thread closes. It doesn't have to change my opinion but if it could weaken the importance of my facts that would be a great start.

Here's hoping you don't rely on flawed cliches like him having an unstoppable shot even though he was stopped plenty. I rather discuss actual basketball events that you know about.

sixer04fan
07-02-2011, 08:11 PM
If Wilt doesn't win this then I've lost complete faith in this forum.

D-Will4Prez
07-02-2011, 08:50 PM
If Wilt doesn't win this then I've lost complete faith in this forum.
x2

I have a hard time believing that Wilt wouldn't have had the same success as MJ if he had played with Pippen/Rodman/Harper

Mr Haha
07-02-2011, 09:25 PM
How can anyone say this isn't Wilt? I can IMAGINE someone arguing for Russell, but the man averaged over 50 points a game!!!!!

Jewelz0376
07-02-2011, 09:58 PM
x2

I have a hard time believing that Wilt wouldn't have had the same success as MJ if he had played with Pippen/Rodman/Harper

lol idk why you put his name in there

Mishmin
07-02-2011, 10:08 PM
More for for Kobe than for Russell? Please

knightstemplar
07-02-2011, 10:55 PM
my man.
timmy d

lol

Chronz
07-02-2011, 11:30 PM
By my recollection Magic had huge issues with two coaches early in his career. Wilt had issues with 7 coaches throughout his career.
There was a less publicized rift later in his career between magic and dumbleavy for sure and im not sure how many wilt truly clashed with. The point I'm making is that these things happen, not every set of egos are going to mesh and the problem with weighing them equally as your attempting is that not all coaches are worthy of respect. Its one thing to completely detest the likes of Butch but great coaches knew how to manage wilt. Lest we forget that even Phil once labeled kobe uncoachable.



Magic had an issue sharing the ball with Norm Nixon, another PG, early in his career. Wilt publicly berated teammates throughout his career and was so disliked around the league that the Lakers voted down trading for him in 1965 by a vote of 9 to 2.
IIRC One of the 2 being Jerry West, you know one of the 2 guys that wouldn't have to worry about relocation. LOL this was Bills funniest stance, the importance of that vote. Just imagine that scenario, "hey guys, I know we've built a championship team and that you have all developed some nice chemistry together, BUT whaddya say about a trade for Wilt? Some of you will have to go but its for wilt ****ing chamberlain.

Anyways yes, both clashed with teammates they felt were holding them or the team back. In Wilts case he was more right than Magic.



Wilt was traded multiple times for discounts because he was such a cancer. Magic wasn't going anywhere.
False, Wilt left Philly (Sixers) because he was promised shares of the team by his soon to be dead friend and owner. When philly denied, he wanted out, there was alot of work and effort done to repair the relationship, Philly WANTED to keep Wilt, even selling him on the idea of coaching the team, (a move btw, that his teammates agreed to) but Wilt was using all the leverage he had (aba) to get to LA. I don't recall the specifics for leaving the Warriors but it had something to do with his medical well being and confidence with the teams doctors. Still how exactly is being traded suppose to diminish a players stature?



There is Wilt's desire to never foul out of a game to the point where he would stop playing defense when he got in foul trouble.
Look I know this is technically true because it happened on occasion but your not listing how or when this hurt the team, players play less agressive defensively when in foul trouble, this holds true for all players, Wilt had displayed over and over that he could dominate defensively whilst in foul trouble the exaggerated rumor stems from Wilt showing pride in what was basically a regular season occurence. Come playoff time Wilt didn't let foul trouble take him out of the game.



There is Chamberlain leading the league in assists and becoming so obsessed with it that he was questioning scorekeepers during the games about assists and checking during timeouts to see how many he had.
I'm sorry but are we talking about the GOAT? MJ did the same when he became obsessed with triple doubles. Again your not explaining how this hurt the team.



This is not even scratching the surface of his flaws in the playoffs. He's on a short list of All-Time Greats whose numbers got significantly worse in the and whose game shrank in countless big moments. Also let's not forget that he was a liability at the end of games because he couldn't shoot free throws.
Agreed, can we start scratching the surface of this debate?



I'm interested to hear you make a compelling case against Magic other than he was a jerk early in his career. It's not much of a character flaw when you are winning titles in 2 of the first 3 seasons of your career.
LOL the fact that he's winning and still not satisfied with the direction of the team some how validates his opinion? Even KAJ wasnt happy with the credit magic was getting. Its almost as if you've completely forgotten how dysfunctional they were at one point, that same selfish mentality cost his team. When you have the player your defending admitting he was at fault for the rift and poor play of the team, Id say it counts as a character flaw.

Anyways, the argument against Magic is simple, he could only dominate on one end, you harp on Wilt for not playing the same level of defense while in foul trouble, Magic had to be hidden defensively ALL GAME. If you couldn't hide magic on bad forwards he was getting torched by quick pgs.



However if you are Wilt Chamberlain averaging over 44.8ppg, your teammates don't like you, and your team goes 31-49... that's a different story.
I've written my entire post on my phone so I wont delve deep but I would love to continue this even after the thread closes.

D-Will4Prez
07-03-2011, 12:30 AM
lol idk why you put his name in there
I like Harper :shrug:

knightstemplar
07-03-2011, 04:16 AM
lol kobe got 18 votes

JordansBulls
07-03-2011, 10:29 AM
x2

I have a hard time believing that Wilt wouldn't have had the same success as MJ if he had played with Pippen/Rodman/Harper

Is this some type of sick joke?

He couldn't even win with Jerry West and Elgin Baylor guys who made 6 finals before Wilt ever played with them and who are both top 15 all time.
West averaged 26 ppg, 7 apg and 4 rpg and Baylor averaged 25 ppg/ 10 rpg and 5 apg and he couldn't even win with that in 1969 and Wilt was 4th on his team in scoring.

West was 30 at the time Baylor was 34 and Wilt 32.

Bulls in 1996, MJ was 33, Pippen 31 and Rodman 35. And then you look at 1998 when MJ was 35, Pippen 33 and Rodman 37.

Just face it Wilt didn't show up. Also interesting is the fact that both West and Baylor played 153 games and 134 games respectively while Wilt played 160 games in the playoffs and yet both of them have more 40+ and 30+ point games than him.

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History
3. Kareem - 75
4. West -74
5. Baylor - 60

JordansBulls
07-03-2011, 10:31 AM
Because you had to fast forward like 6 years to find a single team and your barometer for measuring his supporting cast is limited to a glance at what I'm assuming are the scoring ranks of the finals.

Then you had to resort to mentioning elgin baylor as if name recognition tops actual analysis.


False, it means he needed talent comparable to the top teams of his time. Your statistical evidence isn't backing your opinion.

If you are the 5th leading scorer on your team in the finals it means you had substantial help.

JordansBulls
07-03-2011, 10:38 AM
If Wilt doesn't win this then I've lost complete faith in this forum.

Quite the opposite actually. He has less titles and less accolades than the guys in front of him and got beat down by Russell even when Wilt had HCA 3 of the 4 years. Not to mention got outplayed by his own teammates when he went to LA, not to mention had to get traded to just win.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
07-03-2011, 10:55 AM
Quite the opposite actually. He has less titles and less accolades than the guys in front of him and got beat down by Russell even when Wilt had HCA 3 of the 4 years. Not to mention got outplayed by his own teammates when he went to LA, not to mention had to get traded to just win.

That's why I voted for Russell.

Chronz
07-03-2011, 02:53 PM
If you are the 5th leading scorer on your team in the finals it means you had substantial help.

No it means you scored the 5th most points in a single series. TRY AGAIN, this time assess the entirety of their careers vs those of another, hopefully with better barometers.

I mean what you did would be like me pointing out how KAJ won a title as defensive liability who couldn't even rebound, then me extrapolating that ONE season to mean he had help his entire career, neglecting to mention the little support he had post bigo/pre magic.

Chronz
07-03-2011, 03:17 PM
Is this some type of sick joke?
The only sick joke I see is one you perpetuate by naming ELGIN.


He couldn't even win with Jerry West and Elgin Baylor guys who made 6 finals before Wilt ever played with them and who are both top 15 all time.
Again, your only helping his argument by mentioning this stat. Alot can change with that much time.



West averaged 26 ppg, 7 apg and 4 rpg and Baylor averaged 25 ppg/ 10 rpg and 5 apg and he couldn't even win with that in 1969 and Wilt was 4th on his team in scoring.
I LOVE how you completely ignore efficiency, that may work on your casual fan but not here. Butch was the reason the team lost, not just because of his hatred for Wilt, but because of his offensive philosophy. Choosing to favor Elgin and having Wilt clear out baseline when he clearly couldn't handle the load anymore was something his replacement didn't do.



West was 30 at the time Baylor was 34 and Wilt 32.
Before we get to your insane comparison, know that age isn't the SOLE determinant in how a player develops. But as usual, you neglect to look at the entire picture, focusing on age instead of ability.

Basically Wilt and an always hurt West carried a 2 man team within the brink of a chip if not for their coach. The celtics meanwhile had the superior efficiency differentials all year and came to war with a more complete team.




Bulls in 1996, MJ was 33, Pippen 31 and Rodman 35. And then you look at 1998 when MJ was 35, Pippen 33 and Rodman 37.
So which one of the 3 suffered a knee injury when medical procedures were archaic, also when did that Bulls team face a dynasty? One more question, when did that team ever have to be managed by the likes of Butch?

More importantly, why are you always mentioning MJ, wouldn't your argument become somewhat credible if you cited the support of a player that hasn't already made the cut? You should reread his post.



Just face it Wilt didn't show up. Also interesting is the fact that both West and Baylor played 153 games and 134 games respectively while Wilt played 160 games in the playoffs and yet both of them have more 40+ and 30+ point games than him.
Its much more likely that you didnt pay close attention to his performances. Ill add to this when I have the #s.