PDA

View Full Version : #6 SG In The NBA? (Volume IV)



Mile High Champ
06-28-2011, 06:34 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 3 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best

2011 SG Rankings

1) Dwyane Wade
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Manu Ginobili
4) Joe Johnson
5) Monta Ellis
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)



2010 Off-Season SG Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Manu Ginobili
6) Monta Ellis
7) Ray Allen
8) Stephen Jackson
9) O.J. Mayo
10) Jason Richardson

2009 Off-Season SG Rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Vince Carter
6) Manu Ginobili
7) Ray Allen
8) Kevin Martin
9) Ben Gordon
10) Richard Hamilton

2008 Off-Season SG rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Tracy McGrady
4) Allen Iverson
5) Manu Ginobili
5) Vince Carter
7) Joe Johnson
8) Ray Allen
9) Brandon Roy
10) Kevin Martin

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 06:35 PM
Kevin Martin (again)

Mile High Champ
06-28-2011, 06:37 PM
Lets vote!

Hustlenomics
06-28-2011, 06:38 PM
Ray Allen. He's the best shooter in the league. His clutch gene is out of this world and he's a great defender.(forced Kobe to shoot 6-24 in game 7 last year)

Lakersfan2483
06-28-2011, 06:40 PM
Ray Allen

Bunta
06-28-2011, 06:41 PM
Kmart

Bruno
06-28-2011, 06:42 PM
Ray-Ray.

I'd take Martin for a full 82 game regular season (if he could finish it, not exactly an iron-man), I'd take Ray in a best of seven. :shrug:

It's close. no doubt.

J-Relo
06-28-2011, 06:44 PM
Kevin Martin (again)

again? so you pick him over Monta too?

Avenged
06-28-2011, 06:44 PM
:laugh2: Now Ray is going to win this instead of Martin??

Damn. I can't believe the guy who produces the most out of the last 2 picked might now be beat by another. Martin is so undervalued.

Hustlenomics
06-28-2011, 06:47 PM
:laugh2: Now Ray is going to win this instead of Martin??

Damn. I can't believe the guy who produces the most out of the last 2 picked might now be beat by another. Martin is so undervalued.

Ray Allen produces on both sides offense and defense. The game is more than scoring. Kevin Martin is such a bad defender while Ray's D is great

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 06:48 PM
again? so you pick him over Monta too?

I picked him at 4. Explained my reasoning for my votes over and over again. See #4 and #5 threads for insight.

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 06:50 PM
Ray Allen produces on both sides offense and defense. The game is more than scoring. Kevin Martin is such a bad defender while Ray's D is great

Stop saying Allen's D is great that couldn't be more false. Because Kobe went 6-24 in a game does not make Allen a great defensive player. Kobe played against the Celts not Ray Allen.

Hustlenomics
06-28-2011, 06:51 PM
Stop saying Allen's D is great that couldn't be more false. Because Kobe went 6-24 in a game does not make Allen a great defensive player. Kobe played against the Celts not Ray Allen.

Watch that game over. Ray Allen put the clamps on Kobe..how many players can do that? and Kobe isn't the only player Ray plays good D against. Don't try and tell me his defense is not good when I see him play all the time

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 06:52 PM
:laugh2: Now Ray is going to win this instead of Martin??

Damn. I can't believe the guy who produces the most out of the last 2 picked might now be beat by another. Martin is so undervalued.

:nod:

Bruno
06-28-2011, 06:52 PM
:laugh2: Now Ray is going to win this instead of Martin??

Damn. I can't believe the guy who produces the most out of the last 2 picked might now be beat by another. Martin is so undervalued.

Martin belongs in the top five along with Ray Allen, Manu, Kobe and Wade.

I don't think Allen potentially winning this over Martin is in the same ball-park of a crime as Johnson getting #4.

Ray Allen just had a brilliant playoffs, and showed the he could produce at an equal, if not even higher level than Martin does when it mattered most. Allens numbers from the playoffs exceeded Martins regular season production.

To be blunt, I don't trust Martin. Before last season- he missed half of the season three years in a row. He is yet to show us what he can do in the playoffs. I don't know if he's the type who will rise to the occasion and post better post-season numbers relative to his regular season, or if he'd be like the countless others who collapse and under-perform in the post season.

I'm sure he has the potential; but until I see that, or until he can string two healthy years in a row together, I'll go iron-man Ray Allen who just killed it in the playoffs.

*I think Martin will win this poll.

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 06:52 PM
Watch that game over. Ray Allen put the clamps on Kobe..how many players can do that? and Kobe isn't the only player Ray plays good D against. Don't try and tell me his defense is not good when I see him play all the time

Now you say good. Make up your mind.

theheatles
06-28-2011, 06:53 PM
Jesus shuttlesworth!!!!!

GREATNESS ONE
06-28-2011, 06:54 PM
I didn't even vote on the last one but going Martin here.

Bruno
06-28-2011, 06:55 PM
Ray Allen playoffs 2011:
PER- 19.6 (led Celtics)
WS- 1.7 (led Celtics)
WS/48- 0.225 (led Celtics)
TS%- .708% (led Celtics)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allenra02.html

Hustlenomics
06-28-2011, 06:59 PM
Ray Allen playoffs 2011:
PER- 19.6 (led Celtics)
WS- 1.7 (led Celtics)
WS/48- 0.225 (led Celtics)
TS%- .708% (led Celtics)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allenra02.html

amazing. I like how Martin fans haven't brought up win shares during the regular season also

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 06:59 PM
Ray Allen playoffs 2011:
PER- 19.6 (led Celtics)
WS- 1.7 (led Celtics)
WS/48- 0.225 (led Celtics)
TS%- .708% (led Celtics)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allenra02.html

Don't forget the fact that he also shot the highest 3 FG% of all the players in the post season who qualified. Still IMO does not mean that he's better than Martin.

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 07:00 PM
amazing. I like how Martin fans haven't brought up win shares during the regular season also

Smh. You just don't get it don't you.

Martin has less WS during the regular season than Allen basically because he played 4 less minutes a games.

xxplayerxx23
06-28-2011, 07:01 PM
Is it that you dont think Martin can do it again??? Kevin martin Is the better sg then allen at this point

jason6692
06-28-2011, 07:07 PM
this is the first of these threads i have responded on
but why is joe johnson 4th ?!

xxplayerxx23
06-28-2011, 07:07 PM
I think martin and ellis are better sg then JOhnson

jason6692
06-28-2011, 07:09 PM
if we talkin bout right now it's martin
career its allen
jus like how yall voted wade over kobe..

jason6692
06-28-2011, 07:13 PM
agree ellis>martin>johnson

murphturph
06-28-2011, 07:18 PM
Lets go derozan

BkOriginalOne
06-28-2011, 07:21 PM
Kmart is gonna score more, but Ray Allen's shooting and clutch factor should get him over the hump.

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 07:21 PM
After Allen, Martin, Gordon is off the board (no matter what order you'd figure they'd be the next 3 to go) Mile High Champ could you please include the name Tony Allen. I think he deserves to at least be in the conversation.

LTBaByyy
06-28-2011, 07:23 PM
Ray Allen!!!!!

Bruno
06-28-2011, 07:23 PM
amazing. I like how Martin fans haven't brought up win shares during the regular season also

Martins WS/48 was good, so was his total WS; I think it was at about 10.0. I'm fine with Martin getting the nod here, he had a good season. But I think it's close and I have my reservations with Martin. He's especially frail, and missed half of three seasons before last year. We also don't know if he's the type who would shrink or play big in the playoffs; not a knock against him, we just don't have anything to refer back to. Allen is proven, and just showed us all that he's still got it. He's also an iron man.


Don't forget the fact that he also shot the highest 3 FG% of all the players in the post season who qualified. Still IMO does not mean that he's better than Martin.

These two are close; Martin is great, no serious beef here.

Joe Johnson at # 4 is the only real crime here. Jason Terry is better than Joe Johnson.

jim51990
06-28-2011, 07:26 PM
healthy gordon is alot better then martin and allen
as a celts fan i will say rays getting way to many votes

Bruno
06-28-2011, 07:29 PM
healthy gordon is alot better then martin and allen
as a celts fan i will say rays getting way to many votes

He carried the Celtics this post-season though, didn't he?

Delfiffer
06-28-2011, 07:47 PM
Kevin Martin should get this one, Ray Allen no. 7

NBA-GMaster
06-28-2011, 07:55 PM
Kmart for sure..

5ass
06-28-2011, 07:58 PM
It looks like eric gordon is going to be #8, that guy is so underrated.

jason6692
06-28-2011, 08:03 PM
gordon isn't better than martin or allen plus he plays for the clippers.

xxplayerxx23
06-28-2011, 08:03 PM
It looks like eric gordon is going to be #8, that guy is so underrated.

He hasnt done it enough. Lets see him continue. Kmart is better, Joe johnson is rated wayyy to high

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-28-2011, 08:09 PM
Allen. Voted for him in the last two so I'm doing it again.

JLynn943
06-28-2011, 08:11 PM
Martin should have been 4th, so Martin.

RaidersLakers24
06-28-2011, 08:16 PM
Wow Martin over gordan and Allen? WTF is going on with psd? Martin is just a scorer and ray Allen is a much better scorer then Martin the you have Eric Gordon who can do it all yes he missed half the season but he's a stud and was clearly the best out of the 3 smh at psd

Gordan
Allen
Martin

Redbull
06-28-2011, 08:17 PM
Ray Ray.

RaidersLakers24
06-28-2011, 08:20 PM
gordon isn't better than martin or allen plus he plays for the clippers.

Haha what a joke, prove it! And what does playing for the clippers have yo do with anything!
He's a better offensive player then both his defense is good and his passing ability is the best of the 3!

Giraffes Rule
06-28-2011, 08:22 PM
Kevin Martin, again. Even though this list is already ****ed up.

pebloemer
06-28-2011, 08:35 PM
Surprised Stephen Jackson hasn't gotten more attention. Very well rounded player for a long time now. Martin is certainly a better scorer, but Jackson's overall game is better IMO.

DR_1
06-28-2011, 08:48 PM
Martin is so overrated.

tyfreaks brotha
06-28-2011, 08:55 PM
Martin

JamaicanYouth
06-28-2011, 09:00 PM
Eric Gordon....super underrated

Ebbs
06-28-2011, 09:02 PM
Martin should have gone last thread agruably 2 threads ago lol.

Delfiffer
06-28-2011, 09:04 PM
Eric Gordon could surpass Martin this coming season but this poll is based on who is better right now (who had the better 2010-2011 season), and it was most definitely Kevin Martin. Eric Gordon got off to a great start but he got injured midway throuh the season and never got back to bein fully healthy. He only played 56/82 games while Martin played 80/82.
The choice is clear, it's K-Mart

Lake_Show2416
06-28-2011, 09:06 PM
its Ray Allen

KW93KB24
06-28-2011, 09:09 PM
wow wade over kobe? really? wow. sorry i know it's late, but this is my first time in any of these threads.

Hustlenomics
06-28-2011, 09:16 PM
I like how we ignore defense,rebounding,passing just to favor Kevin martin :laugh2:

Jewelz0376
06-28-2011, 09:26 PM
voting for Martin for the 3rd time in a row lol

LTBaByyy
06-28-2011, 09:26 PM
Martin is so overrated.

:clap:

He would be just a role player on a contending team

LTBaByyy
06-28-2011, 09:27 PM
Ray Allen had one of his best seasons and he isnt a top 6 SG!!!! And he plays DEFENSE also!!!!!

Martin is not better than him

Romo2Bryant
06-28-2011, 09:35 PM
Eric Gordon!

Martin is overrated.. and has a very ugly shot lol.

ManRam
06-28-2011, 09:55 PM
K-Mart, pretty easily for me.

ManRam
06-28-2011, 09:55 PM
Eric Gordon!

Martin is overrated.. and has a very ugly shot lol.

Doesn't matter how ugly it is, he's a more efficient scorer than everyone left on this list just about. :nod:

Raidaz4Life
06-28-2011, 10:02 PM
Gotta go with my boy Tyreke Evans. Kevin Martin is ridiculously overrated here. He is a one dimensional shooter that isn't even all that great at shooting. Plus his assist to turnover ratio is pretty awful.

LTBaByyy
06-28-2011, 10:09 PM
Gotta go with my boy Tyreke Evans. Kevin Martin is ridiculously overrated here. He is a one dimensional shooter that isn't even all that great at shooting. Plus his assist to turnover ratio is pretty awful.

:clap: Forgot his lack of defense

LTBaByyy
06-28-2011, 10:11 PM
Eric Gordon!

Martin is overrated.. and has a very ugly shot lol.

:clap:

Snowman23
06-28-2011, 10:13 PM
Ray,Gordon,Martin

ManRam
06-28-2011, 10:17 PM
He doesn't play great defense, but who on here plays really solid difference.

Knock his FG%, like I once did, but it's wrong to do so. I used to think he was inefficient, but he's actually incredibly efficient.

No SG in the league averages more point per shot. He average 1.48 points per every shot taken: that's tremendous. He's the best pure scoring SG in the NBA, bar none. In fact, the only guard or SF that averages more points per shot is Chauncey. LeBron, Pierce, KD, Paul, Nash etc. don't score as efficiently in that regard.

His TS% is 10th in the league.

He's an amazing scorer, period. Don't downplay him as a "one-dimensional" who can't shoot. He scores amazingly well, period. Enough to make him worthy of going here.


I'd LOVE to hear an argument as to why Ray is better right now. Same with Gordon. Ray plays OK defense, but it isn't amazing any more. EG is a less efficient scorer, and also doesn't bring much else to the table.

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 10:19 PM
Could someone who keeps saying Martin is overrated PLEASE give us a reason to believe you. I mean your opinions are just that and nothing more with your lack of evidence.

He plays NO D yes, we got you but he also was the #1 option (and best player) of a fairly successful team that just missed making the postseason out west. Tell me, who else on this list can fit that mold?

Saying Martin is overrated with nothing to back up your comments is getting really stale.

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 10:21 PM
He doesn't play great defense, but who on here plays really solid difference.

Knock his FG%, like I once did, but it's wrong to do so. I used to think he was inefficient, but he's actually incredibly efficient.

No SG in the league averages more point per shot. He average 1.48 points per every shot taken: that's tremendous. He's the best pure scoring SG in the NBA, bar none. In fact, the only guard or SF that averages more points per shot is Chauncey. LeBron, Pierce, KD, Paul, Nash etc. don't score as efficiently in that regard.

His TS% is 10th in the league.

He's an amazing scorer, period. Don't downplay him as a "one-dimensional" who can't shoot. He scores amazingly well, period. Enough to make him worthy of going here.


I'd LOVE to hear an argument as to why Ray is better right now. Same with Gordon. Ray plays OK defense, but it isn't amazing any more. EG is a less efficient scorer, and also doesn't bring much else to the table.

Go back to the last few pages of the #5 thread. Another poster tried to debate me on that. His basis... PER sucks and Allen is a better scorer due to the fact that he's a more efficient scorer. That and Bruno87's arguments were basically the only time in these threads anyone even attempted to make a case for Allen.

85BearsDefense
06-28-2011, 10:28 PM
no keith bogans option?

Delfiffer
06-28-2011, 10:46 PM
I think the people who are sayin 'Kevin Martin is overrated' are the one's who haven't watched him play this past season and are just looking at his per-game stats. The Rockets were a few bad calls away from making the playoffs as the 8th seed, and that is quite remarkable considering they didn't have Yao, and Scola was basically their 2nd best player on the team.
Also Martin was only the 4th sg in the league with a 20+ PER (Wade, Kobe, Manu the others). If anything, Kevin Martin is underrated.

Chupi
06-28-2011, 10:48 PM
You guys are really underrating Eric Gordon, holy ****.....

Every year you guys underrate the hell out of someone and overrate someone else. This time its Eric Gordon. I guarantee net year he will be top 3

Delfiffer
06-28-2011, 11:01 PM
You guys are really underrating Eric Gordon, holy ****.....

Every year you guys underrate the hell out of someone and overrate someone else. This time its Eric Gordon. I guarantee net year he will be top 3


I dont see that at all. Eric Gordon is a good player but what is holding him back from being ranked higher on the list is the fact he only played 56 games. He didn't have a better season than any other sg on the list so far (except Joe Johnson IMO). Im a fan of his and I think when he's fully healthy, he can easily be a top 5 sg.

ManRam
06-28-2011, 11:07 PM
You guys are really underrating Eric Gordon, holy ****.....

Every year you guys underrate the hell out of someone and overrate someone else. This time its Eric Gordon. I guarantee net year he will be top 3

Besides just telling me I'm overrating him, tell me why. Better yet, tell me why Gordon deserves to go ahead any of these guys.

MTar786
06-28-2011, 11:23 PM
it should be ray no contest over martin. :facepalm:

LTBaByyy
06-28-2011, 11:33 PM
it should be ray no contest over martin. :facepalm:

:clap:

People are loving Martin too much

The dude would be just a solid role player on the contending teams

ManRam
06-28-2011, 11:44 PM
it should be ray no contest over martin. :facepalm:

Why?

And LTBaby, I totally disagree. Probably the best pure scoring SG in the NBA. That's not the pedigree of a role player. Hell, put him on a team where there's less pressure on him (ie, good offensive players around him, unlike what he had last year) and he'd probably become more efficient.

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 11:45 PM
Why?

Exactly. Why?

Chronz
06-28-2011, 11:46 PM
You guys are really underrating Eric Gordon, holy ****.....

Every year you guys underrate the hell out of someone and overrate someone else. This time its Eric Gordon. I guarantee net year he will be top 3

Are you even a Clippers fan?

CHANGO
06-28-2011, 11:48 PM
I said it... :cool:


For me is:
4 - Joe Johnson
5 - Monta Ellis
6 - Kevin Martin
7 - Ray Allen
8 - Jason Terry
9 - Eric Gordon
10 - Stephen Jackson

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 11:50 PM
:clap:

People are loving Martin too much

The dude would be just a solid role player on the contending teams

You keep saying these sorts of things without any basis.

You said earlier Kevin Martin is the worst #1 option in the entire NBA. That worst #1 option lead his team to the 14th best record in the league last season while playing in the Western Conference.

Martin is a better #1 than Elton Brand, Michael Beasley, Tyreke Evans, Andrea Bargnani, Rodney Stuckey, Joe Johnson, Monta Ellis, etc etc

You have now reached to the point where people will start saying you are hating on Martin. You have failed to formulate is single argument against Martin. All you've done is spew garbage.

Corey
06-28-2011, 11:59 PM
I'd LOVE to hear an argument as to why Ray is better right now.

Last season, both played 80 games.

Ray: .615 TS% - .577 eFG% - 5.8 TRB% - 12.7 AST% - 9.8 TOV% - 116 ORtg - 104 DRtg - 10 WS - .166 WS/48

Martin: .601 TS% - .506 eFG% - 5.6 TRB% - 13.0 AST% - 10.5 TOV% - 117 ORtg - 111 DRtg - 9.5 WS - .175 WS/48

Look pretty comparable to me.

Swashcuff
06-29-2011, 12:13 AM
Last season, both played 80 games.

Ray: .615 TS% - .577 eFG% - 5.8 TRB% - 12.7 AST% - 9.8 TOV% - 116 ORtg - 104 DRtg - 10 WS - .166 WS/48

Martin: .601 TS% - .506 eFG% - 5.6 TRB% - 13.0 AST% - 10.5 TOV% - 117 ORtg - 111 DRtg - 9.5 WS - .175 WS/48

Look pretty comparable to me.

Last season leaders in SPM (Statistical +/-)



Player G Min OSPM DSPM SPM
Chris Paul 80 2865 6.34 2.91 9.25
LeBron James 79 3063 7.30 1.46 8.76
Dwight Howard 78 2935 2.56 4.68 7.24
Dwyane Wade 76 2824 5.89 0.79 6.68
Manu Ginobili 80 2426 5.50 1.01 6.51
Kobe Bryant 82 2779 6.75 -1.08 5.67
Derrick Rose 81 3026 6.41 -1.03 5.38
Kevin Love 73 2611 5.33 0.05 5.37
Kevin Garnett 71 2220 0.86 4.20 5.06
Kevin Durant 78 3038 5.59 -0.61 4.97
Dirk Nowitzki 73 2504 4.93 -0.04 4.89
Paul Pierce 80 2774 3.28 1.41 4.70
Ru Westbrook 82 2847 4.88 -0.42 4.46
Deron Williams 65 2465 5.61 -1.18 4.43
Tony Allen 72 1494 0.65 3.58 4.23
Nene Hilario 75 2291 2.06 2.08 4.15
Rajon Rondo 68 2527 1.18 2.71 3.89
Pau Gasol 82 3037 3.23 0.65 3.88
Kevin Martin 80 2603 5.83 -1.97 3.86
Jason Kidd 80 2653 0.89 2.89 3.78
Joakim Noah 48 1576 0.30 3.47 3.77
Al Horford 77 2704 2.08 1.53 3.61
Josh Smith 77 2645 0.43 3.08 3.51
Blake Griffin 82 3112 3.34 0.05 3.39
Lamar Odom 82 2639 2.12 1.07 3.19
Zach Randolph 75 2724 3.80 -0.66 3.14
Melo Anthony 77 2751 4.39 -1.27 3.12
Stephen Curry 74 2489 3.80 -0.68 3.12
Kyle Lowry 75 2563 2.74 0.30 3.04
Andre Iguodala 67 2469 1.39 1.65 3.04
Tyson Chandler 74 2059 0.33 2.67 2.99
Paul Millsap 76 2593 2.09 0.90 2.98
J.R. Smith 79 1968 2.00 0.86 2.86
Carlos Boozer 59 1882 0.79 1.98 2.77
Tony Parker 78 2528 3.47 -0.77 2.70
Danny Granger 79 2763 2.59 0.04 2.63
C Billups 72 2310 4.09 -1.53 2.56
Gerald Wallace 71 2693 0.21 2.33 2.53
Mike Conley 81 2872 1.68 0.80 2.47
Carlos Delfino 49 1590 0.44 1.97 2.41
James Harden 82 2189 2.32 0.08 2.40
Rudy Gay 54 2152 1.44 0.91 2.35
Baron Davis 58 1649 2.39 -0.04 2.35
Steve Nash 75 2497 4.46 -2.15 2.32
Andrew Bynum 54 1500 0.41 1.91 2.32
Ray Allen 80 2890 2.75 -0.46 2.29
J Richardson 80 2715 2.11 0.18 2.29
Monta Ellis 80 3227 3.19 -0.93 2.26

Martin is 20th overall and 5th among SGs Ray Allen 47th an 9th among SGs.

Last season's league leaders in OSPM (Offensive Statistical +/-).


Player G Min OSPM
LeBron James 79 3063 7.30
Kobe Bryant 82 2779 6.75
Derrick Rose 81 3026 6.41
Chris Paul 80 2865 6.34
Dwyane Wade 76 2824 5.89
Kevin Martin 80 2603 5.83
Deron Williams 65 2465 5.61
Kevin Durant 78 3038 5.59
Manu Ginobili 80 2426 5.50
Kevin Love 73 2611 5.33
Dirk Nowitzki 73 2504 4.93
Ru Westbrook 82 2847 4.88
Steve Nash 75 2497 4.46
Melo Anthony 77 2751 4.39
C Billups 72 2310 4.09
Eric Gordon 56 2112 4.05
Zach Randolph 75 2724 3.80
Stephen Curry 74 2489 3.80
Louis Williams 75 1747 3.71
Tony Parker 78 2528 3.47
Blake Griffin 82 3112 3.34
Paul Pierce 80 2774 3.28
Pau Gasol 82 3037 3.23
Monta Ellis 80 3227 3.19
Ty Lawson 80 2103 2.97
L Aldridge 81 3211 2.96
Ray Allen 80 2890 2.75

Kevin Martin 6th overall and 3rd among SGs, Ray Allen 27th overall and 8th among SGs

I also like the fact that you conveniently felt to leave PER out of your post.


Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Ray Allen 2010-11 35 80 2890 16.4 .615 .577 2.3 9.0 5.8 12.7 1.4 0.4 9.8 19.8 116 104 5.8 4.2 10.0 0.166
2 Kevin Martin 2010-11 27 80 2603 21.4 .601 .506 1.2 10.0 5.6 13.0 1.6 0.4 10.5 29.6 117 111 8.0 1.5 9.5 0.175

It's not really that close.

Take into consideration that Martin scores at a higher rate than any other player in the NBA. I don't see how someone could base an entire argument for Allen being superior offensively based solely on offensive efficiency and a marginal difference defensively.

Swashcuff
06-29-2011, 12:25 AM
Rk Player Season Age G MP TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 A. Afflalo 2010-11 25 69 2324 .620 .581 2.3 9.9 6.2 10.9 0.7 1.0 9.2 14.8 123 111 4.8 1.4 6.2 0.128
2 R. Allen 2010-11 35 80 2890 .615 .577 2.3 9.0 5.8 12.7 1.4 0.4 9.8 19.8 116 104 5.8 4.2 10.0 0.166

Looks pretty comparable to me

MagicBucsSox
06-29-2011, 12:25 AM
Watch that game over. Ray Allen put the clamps on Kobe..how many players can do that? and Kobe isn't the only player Ray plays good D against. Don't try and tell me his defense is not good when I see him play all the time

LolOlololololololololoolol if ray Allen could shut down kobe any game he'd be a top 5 player all time. Like wtf

Chronz
06-29-2011, 12:39 AM
Celtics would cream themselves if the Rockets were to offer them Kevin Martin for Ray Allen. Even if the 2 are comparable now, it wont remain true next season. Still Kevin vs Ray isnt bad comparison personally. The fact that Monta is above them both is what pains me.

Bruno
06-29-2011, 01:00 AM
Celtics would cream themselves if the Rockets were to offer them Kevin Martin for Ray Allen. Even if the 2 are comparable now, it wont remain true next season. Still Kevin vs Ray isnt bad comparison personally. The fact that Monta is above them both is what pains me.

totally.

What about Joe Johnson at #4?

Chronz
06-29-2011, 01:22 AM
totally.

What about Joe Johnson at #4?

Ive always been on board with JJ being the Hawks 3rd best player for the past 2 years, possibly 3, but hes not that bad. Hes a good defender who can apply himself at either guard spot. Hes a glorified Stephen Jackson, but even Stephen Jackson played a greater role for his team than Monta when the 2 were together.

JJ and Jacko have something else in common, IMO they make their teammates better to the degree that Ive not seen from Monta. Usually guys who hog the ball do so to maximize the efficiency of their teammates, like Jacko did when he went to Charlotte, or JJ being asked to run the point, be the primary scorer, whatever need be. Not saying these guys are elite at it, but Monta is a special kind of cancerous. Again this is just my opinion, but it is based on the efficiency trends of Monta's teammates. Some day Ill investigate but I really dont care enough to back this up.

Bishnoff
06-29-2011, 02:46 AM
The league is so weak at the SG and C positions at present.

THE GIPPER
06-29-2011, 02:57 AM
why isnt arron afflalo a poll option?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBJI64qIoGQ&feature=related

NYKnicksAllDay
06-29-2011, 04:04 AM
It's gotta Martin here.

ChiSox219
06-29-2011, 04:25 AM
Eric Gordon and James Harden are better than Monta Ellis, I'd say Kevin Martin is equal if not better.

jtsunami
06-29-2011, 09:14 AM
why isnt arron afflalo a poll option?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBJI64qIoGQ&feature=related

Exactly, Afflalo wouldn't win this poll. But he is hands down better than Tyreke, DeRozan, Nick Young (lol), etc.

jtsunami
06-29-2011, 09:16 AM
How I think this should have went:

Wade
Ginobili
Kobe
Ray
Martin
JJ
Monta
Gordon
Terry
Afflalo

cavsbluejackets
06-29-2011, 09:24 AM
It has to be Ray Ray

cavsbluejackets
06-29-2011, 09:24 AM
Ray rat is better than 6 to

CHANGO
06-29-2011, 09:27 AM
Today NBA.com came out a list of the top 25 players present at each position. Sam Smith wrote it. This was his Top 10 of SG.

Shooting Guards

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Manu Ginobili
4. Joe Johnson
5. Ray Allen x2
6. Monta Ellis
7. Kevin Martin
8. Jason Terry
9. Eric Gordon
10.Stephen Jackson

Full article - http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_110627.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

Up one space.
Down one space.
x2 = Up/Down 2 spaces.

Some things I did not like... Kobe first(Over Wade). Ray Allen 5th(Over Monta and Kevin). The rest well for me in the Top 10. In his Top 25 are some atrocious things like Ben Gordon over Jamaal Crawford and Tony Allen. :speechless:

X12Celtics3
06-29-2011, 09:40 AM
Its about time that Kevin Martin wins one of these polls.

JJwayATL
06-29-2011, 10:07 AM
Joe Johnson at no.4?? What!!? he's WAY better than MAN-U. JJ is so underrated its ridiculous. JJ should be at no.3 hands up, possibly even no.2

Delfiffer
06-29-2011, 10:15 AM
Joe Johnson at no.4?? What!!? he's WAY better than MAN-U. JJ is so underrated its ridiculous. JJ should be at no.3 hands up, possibly even no.2

Joe Johnson really shouldn't be in the top 5 period. He's overrated and not the Hawks best player. He had a bad season. ATL should build around Harford, Johnson is getting old now, he's 30 today and already showing signs of declining.

Rivera
06-29-2011, 10:24 AM
Ray ray

JJwayATL
06-29-2011, 10:25 AM
You obviously dont watch ATL play, JJ has always been the best hawk on the Hawks by far. If he weren't playin with scrubs the hawks would make it further in the playoffs every year.

King Drew
06-29-2011, 10:35 AM
Sure Kevin Martin is younger and talented but Ray Allen is the greatest 3 point shooter the league has ever seen. he's super clutch. with good defense. Ray Allen is obviously the better player.

blastmasta26
06-29-2011, 11:08 AM
You obviously dont watch ATL play, JJ has always been the best hawk on the Hawks by far. If he weren't playin with scrubs the hawks would make it further in the playoffs every year.
Joe Johnson is so overrated its ridiculous. I don't watch the Hawks a lot, but every time I watch them Joe Johnson is underwhelming for a player that you claim is their best. Josh Smith and Al Horford are equal to, if not better than, Johnson. And in the context of shooting guards, he's not close to any of the top 5 in terms of efficiency and production, putting him at 3 or even 2 as you claim would be a huge insult to every SG.

It seems like I vote for Kevin Martin every time, first Joe Johnson beats him out then Monta :sigh: hopefully he can win this poll but if Ray Allen somehow wins it I'd be fine with that, good arguments can be made for Allen since he is a better shooter and defender than Martin. But K-Mart's overall offensive efficiency is great.

Avenged
06-29-2011, 11:13 AM
You obviously dont watch ATL play, JJ has always been the best hawk on the Hawks by far. If he weren't playin with scrubs the hawks would make it further in the playoffs every year.

By far? JJ is fortunate he's playing with 2 players whom are better than him since he gets all the credit. If JJ didn't have those 2, everyone would notice how overrated he is since they wouldn't even be sniffing the playoffs.

MiamiWadeCounty
06-29-2011, 11:24 AM
Exactly, Afflalo wouldn't win this poll. But he is hands down better than Tyreke, DeRozan, Nick Young (lol), etc.
:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
Tyreke is hands down better than Affalo. DeRozan and Young are both inefficient players so you can make a case for Affalo over them but not Tyreke.

LakersIn5
06-29-2011, 11:31 AM
KMART IS no.6! SO THIS POLL IS RIGHT! BUT RAY SHOULDVE BEEN no. 5 and ELLIS no.4 then JJ no.7!

Hustlenomics
06-29-2011, 01:09 PM
since when has Joe Johnson not been the best player on the Hawks

roshan3ai
06-29-2011, 01:25 PM
why isnt arron afflalo a poll option?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBJI64qIoGQ&feature=related

I really like Afflalo's game but did you really just use a youtube video as a reason he should be on the list?

theheatles
06-29-2011, 01:34 PM
[QUOTE=CHANGO;18415497]Today NBA.com came out a list of the top 25 players present at each position. Sam Smith wrote it.

[B]Full article - http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_110627.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

damn this sam smith guy is on crack...he got blake griffin as the 2nd best PF and tyson chandler as the 9th best center just to name a few

RaidersLakers24
06-29-2011, 01:39 PM
How I think this should have went:

Wade
Ginobili
Kobe
Ray
Martin
JJ
Monta
Gordon
Terry
Afflalo

:facepalm:

RaidersLakers24
06-29-2011, 01:41 PM
Today NBA.com came out a list of the top 25 players present at each position. Sam Smith wrote it. This was his Top 10 of SG.

Shooting Guards

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Manu Ginobili
4. Joe Johnson
5. Ray Allen x2
6. Monta Ellis
7. Kevin Martin
8. Jason Terry
9. Eric Gordon
10.Stephen Jackson

Full article - http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_110627.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

Up one space.
Down one space.
x2 = Up/Down 2 spaces.

Some things I did not like... Kobe first(Over Wade). Ray Allen 5th(Over Monta and Kevin). The rest well for me in the Top 10. In his Top 25 are some atrocious things like Ben Gordon over Jamaal Crawford and Tony Allen. :speechless:

And once again Kobe wins! I guess I'm the smart one here and not psd like I said when people who are really close to the NBA say things like Kobe is the best then it must be true, especially when the coaches,players, and analyst say the same thing!

Only thing I don't agree with is he has Eric gordan as the #9 shooting guard when he should be top 6! and one thing that made me laugh was he had Andrew Bynum as the 11th best center in the league hahaha hes easily #2

jason6692
06-29-2011, 01:51 PM
did he really say affalo over tyreke ? CRAZY

Avenged
06-29-2011, 02:01 PM
And once again Kobe wins! I guess I'm the smart one here and not psd like I said when people who are really close to the NBA say things like Kobe is the best then it must be true, especially when the coaches,players, and analyst say the same thing!

Only thing I don't agree with is he has Eric gordan as the #9 shooting guard when he should be top 6! and one thing that made me laugh was he had Andrew Bynum as the 11th best center in the league hahaha hes easily #2

Okay so you pretty much agree with his terrible rankings when they benefit your argument, but when they don't, you disagree.

Got it.

THE GIPPER
06-29-2011, 02:02 PM
I really like Afflalo's game but did you really just use a youtube video as a reason he should be on the list?

Haha I originally just posted the comment then I was just on YouTube after and looked up Arron afflalo and I thought that vid was pretty sick so I posted it.

RaidersLakers24
06-29-2011, 02:20 PM
Okay so you pretty much agree with his terrible rankings when they benefit your argument, but when they don't, you disagree.

Got it.

Actually yes, but that Andrew Bynum as the #11 C is crap! Besides shouldn't you have my back? We're both Laker fans after all!

KingPosey
06-29-2011, 02:22 PM
Ray Allen produces on both sides offense and defense. The game is more than scoring. Kevin Martin is such a bad defender while Ray's D is great

Ray Allen's defense isnt "GREAT" imo. He is a good situational help defender on a good defensive team like the Celtics. Which is nice in its own right.

KingPosey
06-29-2011, 02:25 PM
You obviously dont watch ATL play, JJ has always been the best hawk on the Hawks by far. If he weren't playin with scrubs the hawks would make it further in the playoffs every year.

Well for the most part JJ has played by far his worst basketball in the playoffs. He had a couple solid ones this season but he has been bad in the playoffs (with the Hawks) before then.

Htownballa1622
06-29-2011, 02:43 PM
Actually yes, but that Andrew Bynum as the #11 C is crap! Besides shouldn't you have my back? We're both Laker fans after all!

Doesn't mean he can't be logical.
Just saying.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-29-2011, 02:45 PM
And once again Kobe wins! I guess I'm the smart one here and not psd like I said when people who are really close to the NBA say things like Kobe is the best then it must be true, especially when the coaches,players, and analyst say the same thing!

Only thing I don't agree with is he has Eric gordan as the #9 shooting guard when he should be top 6! and one thing that made me laugh was he had Andrew Bynum as the 11th best center in the league hahaha hes easily #2
Horford, Gasol and Noah are easily better. Anyways back on topic Ray should go here.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-29-2011, 02:48 PM
doesn't mean he can't be logical.
Just saying.

lol. X2.

GSW 2012 CHAMPS
06-29-2011, 03:08 PM
Went with Ray Allen.

greg_ory_2005
06-29-2011, 03:30 PM
Taking KMart.

smith&wesson
06-29-2011, 03:38 PM
Demar dorozan :D

jtsunami
06-29-2011, 03:46 PM
:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:
Tyreke is hands down better than Affalo. DeRozan and Young are both inefficient players so you can make a case for Affalo over them but not Tyreke.

Wait, DeRozan and Young are inefficient, but Tyreke isn't??? :laugh:

Ahhhhhahahahahahhaaahahaha

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=afflaar01&y1=2011&p2=evansty01&y2=2011&p3=youngni01&y3=2011&p4=derozde01&y4=2011

:facepalm:

RaidersLakers24
06-29-2011, 03:50 PM
Horford, Gasol and Noah are easily better. Anyways back on topic Ray should go here.

Yeah when Bynum is injured but when he's healthy no one can touch him! He's easily the #2 C in the NBA! He would easily be a 20-10-3 guy on any other team not named the lakers,heat, mavericks or Celtics! Other then that he would be a #1 or #2 option everywhere else!

CHANGO
06-29-2011, 03:57 PM
Yeah when Bynum is injured but when he's healthy no one can touch him! He's easily the #2 C in the NBA! He would easily be a 20-10-3 guy on any other team not named the lakers,heat, mavericks or Celtics! Other then that he would be a #1 or #2 option everywhere else!

And when he will be completely healthy? I can also say that about Yao, Oden, Roy etc...

jtsunami
06-29-2011, 04:02 PM
Yeah when Bynum is injured but when he's healthy no one can touch him! He's easily the #2 C in the NBA! He would easily be a 20-10-3 guy on any other team not named the lakers,heat, mavericks or Celtics! Other then that he would be a #1 or #2 option everywhere else!

Says the Laker fan.

Sadds The Gr8
06-29-2011, 04:08 PM
Wait, DeRozan and Young are inefficient, but Tyreke isn't??? :laugh:

Ahhhhhahahahahahhaaahahaha

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=afflaar01&y1=2011&p2=evansty01&y2=2011&p3=youngni01&y3=2011&p4=derozde01&y4=2011

:facepalm:

ownage

SportsFanatic10
06-29-2011, 04:11 PM
martin for me

Lazaro305201
06-29-2011, 04:46 PM
Im going out on a limb and will say Brandon Roy(when healthy).

king4day
06-29-2011, 04:57 PM
Jackson is so much better than Ray Allen on both sides of the ball right now. I don't get how Allen has so many votes.

king4day
06-29-2011, 05:04 PM
Same for Richardson. If Boston could swap out Jrich for Allen, they would.

KingPosey
06-29-2011, 05:13 PM
^
I dont think so.

haggis
06-29-2011, 05:44 PM
Wait, DeRozan and Young are inefficient, but Tyreke isn't??? :laugh:

Ahhhhhahahahahahhaaahahaha

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=afflaar01&y1=2011&p2=evansty01&y2=2011&p3=youngni01&y3=2011&p4=derozde01&y4=2011

:facepalm:

:laugh2:


Yeah when Bynum is injured but when he's healthy no one can touch him! He's easily the #2 C in the NBA! He would easily be a 20-10-3 guy on any other team not named the lakers,heat, mavericks or Celtics! Other then that he would be a #1 or #2 option everywhere else!

Why do you use so many exclamation points?


Im going out on a limb and will say Brandon Roy(when healthy).

Roy is easily #3 if healthy.

Mile High Champ
06-29-2011, 06:06 PM
#7 is now up guys..

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-29-2011, 06:20 PM
and when he will be completely healthy? I can also say that about yao, oden, roy etc...

x2.