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Mile High Champ
06-27-2011, 03:38 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 3 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best

2011 SG Rankings

1) Dwyane Wade
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Manu Ginobili
4) Joe Johnson
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)



2010 Off-Season SG Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Manu Ginobili
6) Monta Ellis
7) Ray Allen
8) Stephen Jackson
9) O.J. Mayo
10) Jason Richardson

2009 Off-Season SG Rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Vince Carter
6) Manu Ginobili
7) Ray Allen
8) Kevin Martin
9) Ben Gordon
10) Richard Hamilton

2008 Off-Season SG rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Tracy McGrady
4) Allen Iverson
5) Manu Ginobili
5) Vince Carter
7) Joe Johnson
8) Ray Allen
9) Brandon Roy
10) Kevin Martin

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 03:39 PM
Joe Johnson got 4th!!!! :dance:

Thats my dude, Okay now its Monta Ellis or Ray Allen

Hmmmm...

Testaverde16
06-27-2011, 03:43 PM
after watching what terry did in the finals, and the fact that he is cool with a bench role, im taking him over those guys.

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 03:44 PM
after watching what terry did in the finals, and the fact that he is cool with a bench role, im taking him over those guys.

Is it just me or should the 5th best shooting guard in the NBA not be a starter??

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 03:45 PM
Yeah I have Terry will go 7-9 range

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 03:46 PM
I don't think it has anything to do with being a starter or not in all honesty. However, I'd personally want more size from a 2 than Terry.

haggis
06-27-2011, 03:46 PM
I can't believe Joe F'n Johnson won the last go around...

I'll stick with Martin.

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 03:46 PM
Is it just me or should the 5th best shooting guard in the NBA not be a starter??

Go look at the polls the last 3 years

Manu Ginobili- 5, 6, and 5

He came off the bench those years

Bryrob58
06-27-2011, 03:47 PM
As I stated in the last thread, I feel that a full, healthy year from Eric Gordon could push him to 3rd in next year's poll. So assuming that happens, my vote goes to him. Probably a year too early, but it just says what I think of his game. Ellis should win this poll, however.

jtsunami
06-27-2011, 03:47 PM
Give me Ray Ray.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 03:49 PM
Not going to complain about prior rankings. I got Kevin Martin here.

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 03:49 PM
Ellis, Allen, Gordon, Martin, Terry, then Harden or Tony Allen (Best Defensive SG should bump him up to #10)

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-27-2011, 03:49 PM
easily K-Mart

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-27-2011, 03:50 PM
Ellis, Allen, Gordon, Martin, Terry, then Harden or Tony Allen (Best Defensive SG should bump him up to #10)

:facepalm:

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 03:52 PM
Martin Gordon Ellis Allen

Mile High Champ
06-27-2011, 03:53 PM
Kevin Martin for me. His efficiency, win shares, PER and shooting percentages are all very impressive and I like him here. I would accept Ray Allen winning this spot as well.

Rivera
06-27-2011, 03:54 PM
ellis/allen/martin

i rather have ray on my team

if i need someone to start my team ill take monta over martin and ray is what? 34 35 so i wouldnt want him to start my team

i just feel monta is more feared and respected by NBA defenses than kevin martin

ray is a far superior defender than either of these 2

im going with monta

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 03:57 PM
Martin Gordon Ellis Allen

:nod:

I love Gordon so I would be a bit biased when choosing between him and Monta

Snowman23
06-27-2011, 03:58 PM
Monta, martin, allen

24/7
06-27-2011, 03:58 PM
voted for the 2nd best player on the 2011 champions.

ChitownSports16
06-27-2011, 04:01 PM
JJ at 4 lol is a joke... Ray Ray should have gotton that one. Any I guess Ray at 5

Jays Claw
06-27-2011, 04:01 PM
Is it just me or should the 5th best shooting guard in the NBA not be a starter??

You know very well that Terry could be a starter on every other team. Plus, an above poster mentioned how Ginobili (the Spurs' 6th man) was considered a top 5-6 SG in previous years.

As for my vote, I'll go with Martin. Dude can score the ball with ease from field goals to free-throws to three pointers. Just take a look at his advanced stats from this past year.

P.S - Did it ever occur to anyone that Brandon Roy is a top 3 SG injuries aside? I guess his injuries did him in then.

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 04:03 PM
When choosing a player, you have to look at the whole package.

Scoring, Man Defense, Help Defense, Passing skills, Clutch, Experience, Shooting, Ball Handling, Size, Durability, etc.

There are so many things that Ray Allen does right. People fail to realize basketball requires a lot more than offense. Kevin Martin is one hell of a scorer, and probably the most efficient/best scorer on the list. But there are SO many things he doesn't do well or bring to the table that Allen does: defense (both help and man), experience, passing, better release, better shooter, more clutch, durability, etc.

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 04:03 PM
voted for the 2nd best player on the 2011 champions.

But #1 is the 2nd best player on the runner up team??? By that logic number 6 should be the 4th best player on the 5th best team then?

Bruno
06-27-2011, 04:04 PM
I don't get the Mavs fans here. Terrys numbers this season trumped Joe Johnsons, and in the playoffs it wasn't even close. No Terry, no ring. But some of you guys are talking about him at 7-8, after voting Johnson at the four?

I picked Ray Allen.

ddhulett
06-27-2011, 04:07 PM
Monta Ellis

He has a better Shooting %, more points pg, more assist and more steals than Martin. He's a better defender and not as injury prone.

He get's very over looked because he's a combo guard and plays for the warriors

Giraffes Rule
06-27-2011, 04:08 PM
Kevin Martin (again)

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 04:09 PM
I don't get the Mavs fans here. Terrys numbers this season trumped Joe Johnsons, and in the playoffs it wasn't even close. No Terry, no ring. But some of you guys are talking about him at 7-8, after voting Johnson at the four?

I picked Ray Allen.

Jason Terry played well in the playoffs, but his size is a liability. Not every team has a 6'4" HOF PG that can still play great defense on 2s and 3s.

jtsunami
06-27-2011, 04:14 PM
Wow, no love for Ray Allen. More efficient and a better defender than KMart and Ellis.

sixer04fan
06-27-2011, 04:14 PM
Ellis
Martin

Allen





Anyone else

Kashmir13579
06-27-2011, 04:16 PM
Crawford is going to go overlooked on here once again and its pathetic. Look at the previous years and tell me Crawford didn't deserve a spot over Tony Allen, OJ Mayo, SJax, Gordon, Hamilton, etc.

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 04:16 PM
Monta FINALLY took the lead

The dude is a beast, wish he was a couple inches taller :(

Bruno
06-27-2011, 04:25 PM
Jason Terry played well in the playoffs, but his size is a liability. Not every team has a 6'4" HOF PG that can still play great defense on 2s and 3s.

That goes both ways. His small stature and quickness is also why one of the top perimeter defenders in the NBA (LBJ) could not guard him for the second half of the series. Martin, Ray Allen, Joe Johnson, and Monta all also play along side other bigger/smaller players who can take a defensive assignment when their match-up doesn't suit them. Joe Johnson and Jason Terrys defensive rating is essentially the same. Terry is more efficient, more productive and plays bigger on the biggest stages. Terry>Johnson, IMO.


Wow, no love for Ray Allen. More efficient and a better defender than KMart and Ellis.

x2. He's being written off because of his age. In a seven game series I'd still take Ray over either of those guys (depending on the match-up).

allSUAVE
06-27-2011, 04:36 PM
Monta Ellis
jason terry

K.martin

Hawkeye15
06-27-2011, 04:44 PM
Kevin Martin here

SportsFanatic10
06-27-2011, 04:50 PM
i went with ellis here...dudes got his flaws but hes a baller.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-27-2011, 05:10 PM
Had Allen in the last one, have him again in this one.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-27-2011, 05:11 PM
That goes both ways. His small stature and quickness is also why one of the top perimeter defenders in the NBA (LBJ) could not guard him for the second half of the series. Martin, Ray Allen, Joe Johnson, and Monta all also play along side other bigger/smaller players who can take a defensive assignment when their match-up doesn't suit them. Joe Johnson and Jason Terrys defensive rating is essentially the same. Terry is more efficient, more productive and plays bigger on the biggest stages. Terry>Johnson, IMO.



x2. He's being written off because of his age. In a seven game series I'd still take Ray over either of those guys (depending on the match-up).

X3. If I were an opposing team in the playoffs I would be scared when Ray pulls up for three. He also just came off one of his best seasons.

sf-fanatic
06-27-2011, 05:19 PM
Its weird how Joe Johnson didnt even finish second on the poll for the 3rd best SG and he outright won the 4th best SG by a wide margin. A lot of PSD voters are voting based on name. They didn't want to see Gordon/Monta/Martin/Ray Ray winning 4th best SG.

Hustlenomics
06-27-2011, 05:21 PM
I'd rather Ray Allen on my team but there's no denying Monta Ellis talent, he gets my vote

macc
06-27-2011, 05:23 PM
Why isn't Vince Carter on this list? He's not #5 or 6 but he is arguablly still top 10.

Sadds The Gr8
06-27-2011, 05:25 PM
Why isn't Vince Carter on this list? He's not #5 or 6 but he is arguablly still top 10.

no he isn't. Wince Carter is finished he isn't a top 10 SG

KingPosey
06-27-2011, 05:28 PM
Kevin Martin is better than Monte, and Joe Johnson is not #4. That guys is overrated, and is absolutely non existent in the playoffs.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-27-2011, 05:30 PM
Why isn't Vince Carter on this list? He's not #5 or 6 but he is arguablly still top 10.

LOL. What?

Delfiffer
06-27-2011, 05:41 PM
kevin martin should have gotten 4th but whatever. He had a better season than ellis and ray allen. And goin into mext season, IMO he'll be better than both of them again

Hustlenomics
06-27-2011, 05:43 PM
Kevin martin never in his life was better than Ray Allen

alencp3
06-27-2011, 05:45 PM
can anyone explain to me how are ellis and martin better than gordon

..im waiting

Delfiffer
06-27-2011, 06:00 PM
Kevin martin never in his life was better than Ray Allen

What??? Martin was better than Allen in 2011. Compare thier stats, most of them favour Martin. Allen at this point in his career is best as a role player, he's old and washed up now. Martin's in his prime. So, Martin > Allen, easily

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 06:02 PM
can anyone explain to me how are ellis and martin better than gordon

..im waiting

I am one of the biggest Gordon defenders on here but I really can't put him ahead of Martin. Next season once he remains healthy IMO he'll solidify himself as the #3 best SG in the NBA. Based on his production last season however and given the fact that it was his "break out" year that he missed 26 games (almost 2/3 of the season) I can't formulate an argument that he is indeed THAT good. If we look at it from a statistical POV Martin has him beat very easily.

What Eric does offer more than any other All Star calibre SG not named Kobe or Dwyane is his + defense. IMO he's better defensively than every name on this list and that in itself holds great ground. The difference between him and Martin/Ellis on D is MUCH larger than say Allen, Johnson, Terry. That can indeed be used as a huge reason as to why he should be ahead of them.

Chupi
06-27-2011, 06:37 PM
Eric Gordon is by far the best player their...

VCaintdead17
06-27-2011, 06:43 PM
Eric Gordon is a much better all round player than Ellis

Delfiffer
06-27-2011, 06:49 PM
Tyreke Evans fully healthy is better than Eric Gordon fully healthy IMO

Avenged
06-27-2011, 06:54 PM
JOKES.

I'll just vote without discussing from now on, that's what everyone who voted for JJ and Monta are doing anyways.

Not one person gave a logical reasoning why JJ is #4.

Al Horford and Josh Smith are better than him.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-27-2011, 06:55 PM
wow ellis leads:facepalm:

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-27-2011, 06:56 PM
Monta FINALLY took the lead

The dude is a beast, wish he was a couple inches taller :(

a beast wo cant win games as a 1st option:facepalm:

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-27-2011, 06:59 PM
JOKES.

I'll just vote without discussing from now on, that's what everyone who voted for JJ and Monta are doing anyways.

Not one person gave a logical reasoning why JJ is #4.

Al Horford and Josh Smith are better than him.

this

JJ and Ellis as a 4th and 5th is a discrace.
What a joke:sigh:

KnicksR4Real
06-27-2011, 06:59 PM
gordon. but the sg position isnt the strongest when it comes to the players.

ManRam
06-27-2011, 07:02 PM
I voted Kevin Martin. I'd take him any day over Ellis. Much, much, much more efficient scorer. Neither bring much else to the table...

Gordon is close.

jtsunami
06-27-2011, 07:03 PM
What??? Martin was better than Allen in 2011. Compare thier stats, most of them favour Martin. Allen at this point in his career is best as a role player, he's old and washed up now. Martin's in his prime. So, Martin > Allen, easily

:laugh2: What? How about you go look up the stats and see that Martin doesn't have better stats than Allen.

I'll help you out. Go here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=allenra02&y1=2011&p2=martike02&y2=2011).

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 07:16 PM
:laugh2: What? How about you go look up the stats and see that Martin doesn't have better stats than Allen.

Yes he does


Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1 Ray Allen 2010-11 35 80 80 36.1 6.0 12.2 .491 2.1 4.7 .444 2.4 2.7 .881 0.6 2.8 3.4 2.7 1.0 0.2 1.5 1.8 16.5
2 Kevin Martin 2010-11 27 80 80 32.5 6.9 15.8 .436 2.2 5.7 .383 7.4 8.4 .888 0.4 2.9 3.2 2.5 1.0 0.2 2.3 1.9 23.5


Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Ray Allen 2010-11 35 80 2890 16.4 .615 .577 2.3 9.0 5.8 12.7 1.4 0.4 9.8 19.8 116 104 5.8 4.2 10.0 0.166
2 Kevin Martin 2010-11 27 80 2603 21.4 .601 .506 1.2 10.0 5.6 13.0 1.6 0.4 10.5 29.6 117 111 8.0 1.5 9.5 0.175

In terms of shooting Allen is indeed the better shooter than Martin I don't think anyone would debate that, as far as overall offensive efficiency however, Martin does indeed have him beat hands down no questions asked.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 07:17 PM
this

JJ and Ellis as a 4th and 5th is a discrace.
What a joke:sigh:

Ikr... smh

tredigs
06-27-2011, 07:28 PM
JOKES.

I'll just vote without discussing from now on, that's what everyone who voted for JJ and Monta are doing anyways.

Not one person gave a logical reasoning why JJ is #4.

Al Horford and Josh Smith are better than him.

I gave a number of reasons why Monta goes ahead of J.J., and why he can absolutely be debated to be ahead of Martin in the prior thread.

Being that it looks like he'll win, I'll let off the gas. But just check out SG#4 thread again if you want to see my/the reasoning.

But yes, J.J. at four after that porous season is funny.

Hawkeye15
06-27-2011, 08:09 PM
I gave a number of reasons why Monta goes ahead of J.J., and why he can absolutely be debated to be ahead of Martin in the prior thread.

Being that it looks like he'll win, I'll let off the gas. But just check out SG#4 thread again if you want to see my/the reasoning.

But yes, J.J. at four after that porous season is funny.

I would rather you type another Daniel Steele novel on the chucker

:)

DR_1
06-27-2011, 08:14 PM
It's between Allen and Monta; Allens D makes him better IMO.

Baller1
06-27-2011, 08:18 PM
When you're the most feared shooter in the game, you're a top 5 player at your respected position.

I'll take Ray Ray.

Baller1
06-27-2011, 08:23 PM
James Harden will be anywhere from #4-7 next year. Can't wait.

dtmagnet
06-27-2011, 08:26 PM
Went with Ellis over Kmart.

roshan3ai
06-27-2011, 08:27 PM
James Harden is awesome! :)

Hustlenomics
06-27-2011, 08:41 PM
you guys make it seem like Joe Johnson and Ellis are scrubs

blastmasta26
06-27-2011, 08:49 PM
you guys make it seem like Joe Johnson and Ellis are scrubs
It's not about being a scrub, it's about being top 5 SGs, which Joe Johnson definitely isn't. Monta's been improving and 5 is a good spot for him, but Joe Johnson at 4? :pity:

I'm going K-Mart here, people are really undervaluing his offensive efficiency.

tredigs
06-27-2011, 08:50 PM
I would rather you type another Daniel Steele novel on the chucker

:)

Aha. I want my $300k advance first.

jtsunami
06-27-2011, 08:53 PM
Yes he does


Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1 Ray Allen 2010-11 35 80 80 36.1 6.0 12.2 .491 2.1 4.7 .444 2.4 2.7 .881 0.6 2.8 3.4 2.7 1.0 0.2 1.5 1.8 16.5
2 Kevin Martin 2010-11 27 80 80 32.5 6.9 15.8 .436 2.2 5.7 .383 7.4 8.4 .888 0.4 2.9 3.2 2.5 1.0 0.2 2.3 1.9 23.5


Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Ray Allen 2010-11 35 80 2890 16.4 .615 .577 2.3 9.0 5.8 12.7 1.4 0.4 9.8 19.8 116 104 5.8 4.2 10.0 0.166
2 Kevin Martin 2010-11 27 80 2603 21.4 .601 .506 1.2 10.0 5.6 13.0 1.6 0.4 10.5 29.6 117 111 8.0 1.5 9.5 0.175

In terms of shooting Allen is indeed the better shooter than Martin I don't think anyone would debate that, as far as overall offensive efficiency however, Martin does indeed have him beat hands down no questions asked.

Please tell me you aren't referring to PER when saying he's more efficient. PER doesn't measure efficiency. TS% and eFG% measure efficiency. PER sucks.

blastmasta26
06-27-2011, 09:10 PM
Please tell me you aren't referring to PER when saying he's more efficient. PER doesn't measure efficiency. TS% and eFG% measure efficiency. PER sucks.
Isn't PER fine when used in conjunction with other stats? Besides, K-Mart has a slightly higher offensive rating, more offensive win shares, and more win shares per 48.

AntiG
06-27-2011, 09:20 PM
Ray Allen. He actually plays good defense.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 11:18 PM
Please tell me you aren't referring to PER when saying he's more efficient. PER doesn't measure efficiency. TS% and eFG% measure efficiency. PER sucks.

Wow. Just wow. Did you not see me bold the statistics. You said Allen is better statistically which could be more wrong. I also highlighted WS, WS/48, OWS, ORtg.

So because you think PER sucks mean that we should disregard it all together then. Because of your opinion we should banish it from every argument. PER sums up the positive accomplishments and subtracts the negative accomplishments of a player thus giving you an essential value as to the worth of a player. It's more comprehensive that conventional advanced stats. I would not say it sucks but it does have its worth. Not the best by any means because it tends to favour certain players but it surely does not suck.

blastmasta26
06-27-2011, 11:24 PM
Wow. Just wow. Did you not see me bold the statistics. You said Allen is better statistically which could be more wrong. I also highlighted WS, WS/48, OWS, ORtg.

So because you think PER sucks mean that we should disregard it all together then. Because of your opinion we should banish it from every argument. PER sums up the positive accomplishments and subtracts the negative accomplishments of a player thus giving you an essential value as to the worth of a player. It's more comprehensive that conventional advanced stats. I would not say it sucks but it does have its worth. Not the best by any means because it tends to favour certain players but it surely does not suck.
General question: PER is known to favor volume shooters, correct?

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 11:34 PM
General question: PER is known to favor volume shooters, correct?

Shot creators. Derick Rose, Chris Paul, Deron Williams etc.

LakersIn5
06-28-2011, 01:01 AM
ellis should be 4th. JJ is so overated. then ray should be 5th. kmart 6th. THEN JJ 7th

hugepatsfan
06-28-2011, 01:58 AM
Wade
Kobe
Manu
Eric Gordon
K-Mart
JJ
Ray
Monta
Jet Terry
Wes Matthews

Maybe I overrated Gordon a little, but his #s in an injury shortened season have him up here and he's a 2 way player). I'll probably forget to vote on a lot of these, so I just threw out my top 10 now.

D-Will4Prez
06-28-2011, 03:02 AM
Ellis has a better supporting cast than Martin and the Warriors ended up with a worse record...I rest my case.

Ebbs
06-28-2011, 04:22 AM
Ellis over Martin come on PSD.... How was Ellis better than Martin?

Venomous88
06-28-2011, 05:32 AM
JJ should have never been 4

X12Celtics3
06-28-2011, 06:16 AM
Good god, what the hell did Joe Johnson and Monta Ellis to have such a big goddamn following? Neither of them have any business getting votes this early...

alencp3
06-28-2011, 06:42 AM
can anyone explain to me how are ellis and martin better than gordon

..im waiting

as i expected no one replied . u guys are full of ****

Mishmin
06-28-2011, 07:16 AM
Martin and Ellis are revolving doors on defense. The answer here is Ray Allen.

alexander_37
06-28-2011, 07:32 AM
Good god, what the hell did Joe Johnson and Monta Ellis to have such a big goddamn following? Neither of them have any business getting votes this early...

Everyone says oooohhhhhh pretty dunks then votes based on that.

jtsunami
06-28-2011, 08:23 AM
Wow. Just wow. Did you not see me bold the statistics. You said Allen is better statistically which could be more wrong. I also highlighted WS, WS/48, OWS, ORtg.

So because you think PER sucks mean that we should disregard it all together then. Because of your opinion we should banish it from every argument. PER sums up the positive accomplishments and subtracts the negative accomplishments of a player thus giving you an essential value as to the worth of a player. It's more comprehensive that conventional advanced stats. I would not say it sucks but it does have its worth. Not the best by any means because it tends to favour certain players but it surely does not suck.

Kevin Martin does not have more win shares. Also, Kevin Martin is on a team that has the 4th highest team ORtg. Boston is 19th. That has to factor in how efficient one player is on a given team. Kevin Martin was the worst defender on a bad defensive team.

Kevin Martin has more OWS, WS/48 and PER because he takes 5 more FGA and 6.5 more FTA per game.

Ray Allen is the more efficient scorer, deadliest shooter in the game (still), and the better defender. Rebounding and assists are a wash. So your reasoning why Kevin Martin is a better player is because he shoots more?

And yes, PER does suck because it's an attempt to evaluate players with one stat (which is a bunch of concepts from other stats all boiled into one). And all of the flaws of each stat are combined and are magnified. PER is for entertainment as described by the creator John Hollinger. There's nothing to take from it that you can't get from other statistics in a much clearer way.

Explain besides saying he has a higher _____ so he's better. Otherwise you are just using stats without knowing how they work.

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 09:52 AM
as i expected no one replied . u guys are full of ****

Are you blind? I responded to you right after you posted.

Kobes a Killer
06-28-2011, 09:56 AM
ellis should be 4th. JJ is so overated. then ray should be 5th. kmart 6th. THEN JJ 7th

:facepalm: just because JJ is overpaid doesn't mean he's overrated. No way is kmart and Ellis better then a more well rounded Joe Johnson

LakersIn5
06-28-2011, 10:46 AM
:facepalm: just because JJ is overpaid doesn't mean he's overrated. No way is kmart and Ellis better then a more well rounded Joe Johnson

he is not overated because of his contract. he is overated because he was named as PSDs 4th best SG.

even if joe johnson had a $1 a year contract he still doesnt deserve the 4th spot.

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 11:18 AM
Kevin Martin does not have more win shares.

My bad I thought I saw Martin with 10 and Allen with 9.5. Either way WS/48 is a better indicator that WS only reason Allen has more WS is because he played close to 4 more minutes a game.


Also, Kevin Martin is on a team that has the 4th highest team ORtg. Boston is 19th. That has to factor in how efficient one player is on a given team. Kevin Martin was the worst defender on a bad defensive team.

Wait? You know it goes both ways right? Kevin Martin's offensive efficiency and scoring also affects his team's ORtg. So despite the fact that his team is 4th in ORtg or not he himself has a huge impact on that.

eg.
w/ Leading Scorer w/o Leading Scorer
Team Leading Scorer G Pts Poss ORtg avRtg vsAvg G Pts Poss ORtg avRtg vsAvg Diff
HOU Kevin Martin 80 8465 7572.8 111.8 108.1 3.7 2 202 181.2 111.4 104.6 6.8 -3.1


Kevin Martin has more OWS, WS/48 and PER because he takes 5 more FGA and 6.5 more FTA per game.

You say that as if it is a bad thing. He is relied on to be the #1 offensive option of his team, which means more attention is paid to him by opposing defenses. You say he attempts more but ignore the fact that he also converts at a respectable rate. Martin does not have more WS/48 because he attempts more shots that is absolutely ridiculous. He has more WS/48 because he plays 4 fewer minutes than Allen. By that basis had he played the same amount of MPG as Ray he would also have more WS as well.

Had a 35 year old Ray Allen been placed in such a system and be asked to play such a role there is no chance that he produces the way Martin does. Allen thrives now from being a complementary on one of the most complete teams in the entire NBA.


Ray Allen is the more efficient scorer, deadliest shooter in the game (still), and the better defender. Rebounding and assists are a wash. So your reasoning why Kevin Martin is a better player is because he shoots more?

Shoots more? So we shall ignore the fact that he scores more too right? We shall just act as though all he does is shoot more than Allen but as far as offensive output he has the same right? You say rebounds and assists but not points. Why? Because all we look at is efficiency? So then by that notion is Arron Afflalo better than Ray Allen too right? Because assists and rebounds are a wash he is more efficient and plays MUCH better defense.

Lets not be selective in our arguments please if you wanted to hold a debate don't pick and choose what you think matters because by your basis there are other players who is better is those selective aspects.


And yes, PER does suck because it's an attempt to evaluate players with one stat (which is a bunch of concepts from other stats all boiled into one). And all of the flaws of each stat are combined and are magnified. PER is for entertainment as described by the creator John Hollinger. There's nothing to take from it that you can't get from other statistics in a much clearer way.

So by your reasoning it holds ZERO ground? It's a complete and utter waste of a statistic and should be banished from every single statistical debate? I must say that is indeed interesting that your opinion is better than that of a universally accepted (for the most part accurate) statistic of evaluating a players efficiency. I fully agree that it indeed has many flaws and should NOT be used as the end all to all stats BUT to say its garbage and should never be used is a garbage statement. That is my opinion.



Explain besides saying he has a higher _____ so he's better. Otherwise you are just using stats without knowing how they work.

Wait weren't you the one who said Allen is the better player statistically? Completely ignoring PER because in your personal opinion it does not exist in these sorts of discussions.

So I could say the same "besides saying he has a higher _____ so he's better". Martin scores at a higher volume than than Ray Allen at a respectable rate in less time thus leading his team in scoring and leading them to a respectable record out west. I question if Ray Allen will have that sort of effect on a team such as the Rockets.

When Rondo started off last season tossing assists every which way and en route to breaking Celtics records many said he was the best passer in the game, then the question was asked... had Chris Paul have such a formidable support cast would he average more assists than Rondo.... eyebrows raised and most said yes.

A player benefits from those around them and the system in which they play (depending on whether the system is a good one or not). It would be ignorant for me to say that Allen is not a better defensive player because he indeed is. However one would be unwise to ignore the fact that he does have a better supporting cast and had no choice but to buy into their defensive philosophy. Place Martin there and I am confident that he would be in improved (not good) defensive player.

Quick question. What means did you use to evaluate Martin's defensive efficiency or rather inefficiency?

DR_1
06-28-2011, 11:56 AM
I just don't get why Ray Allen is being so underrated. He's still a very good player who does exactly what shooting guard should do, which is shoot and defend. I'm not criticizing Ellis, I just think Ray is a much more efficient player at his position. And I'm not even a fan of the Celtics!

I-4_Fan
06-28-2011, 12:14 PM
How did Johnson get 4? I can see why Allen and Martin are being argued but Johnson not as good as those guys.

GoPacers33
06-28-2011, 12:35 PM
B-roy

vdv36
06-28-2011, 01:06 PM
Ray should be TOP 5 out of respect!!! he's numbers are great and has been more consistent then anyone on this list through his career...

WADE
BRYANT
JOHNSON
EVANS
ALLEN

kenzo400
06-28-2011, 01:08 PM
Joe Johnson should not be ahead of Monta Ellis. Just compare their stats this year.

jtsunami
06-28-2011, 01:40 PM
My bad I thought I saw Martin with 10 and Allen with 9.5. Either way WS/48 is a better indicator that WS only reason Allen has more WS is because he played close to 4 more minutes a game.
Agreed.


Wait? You know it goes both ways right? Kevin Martin's offensive efficiency and scoring also affects his team's ORtg. So despite the fact that his team is 4th in ORtg or not he himself has a huge impact on that.

eg.
w/ Leading Scorer w/o Leading Scorer
Team Leading Scorer G Pts Poss ORtg avRtg vsAvg G Pts Poss ORtg avRtg vsAvg Diff
HOU Kevin Martin 80 8465 7572.8 111.8 108.1 3.7 2 202 181.2 111.4 104.6 6.8 -3.1

I never said it as if it was a bad thing. This isn't about Kevin Martin being bad at scoring because he isn't. He's very good. My point is that Ray Allen scores at an extremely high efficiency on a relatively inefficient team. And I can't discredit him for not taking/getting more shots which would raise his scoring. At what expense to his efficiency? We don't know that answer. All I know is that he's the most feared shooter in league. More feared than Kevin Martin.

You say that as if it is a bad thing. He is relied on to be the #1 offensive option of his team, which means more attention is paid to him by opposing defenses. You say he attempts more but ignore the fact that he also converts at a respectable rate. Martin does not have more WS/48 because he attempts more shots that is absolutely ridiculous. He has more WS/48 because he plays 4 fewer minutes than Allen. By that basis had he played the same amount of MPG as Ray he would also have more WS as well.
But it's true. WS, OWS, and WS/48 all use pure points produced. Not the efficiency at which those points are produced. So whoever scores more relative to their team's output is going to have higher OWS which factors into WS and WS/48.

Had a 35 year old Ray Allen been placed in such a system and be asked to play such a role there is no chance that he produces the way Martin does. Allen thrives now from being a complementary on one of the most complete teams in the entire NBA.
We can't argue this because we don't know. I don't see a difference in today's Ray Allen and 2007 Ray Allen. You can't say for certain what his numbers would be on the Rockets. Yes, he enjoys a complimentary role on a team with no dominant player. Is that supposed to work against him?


Shoots more? So we shall ignore the fact that he scores more too right? We shall just act as though all he does is shoot more than Allen but as far as offensive output he has the same right? You say rebounds and assists but not points. Why? Because all we look at is efficiency? So then by that notion is Arron Afflalo better than Ray Allen too right? Because assists and rebounds are a wash he is more efficient and plays MUCH better defense.
I never said anything about Ray Allen being the far superior player. What I was trying to get across to all the people voting for Kevin Martin is that Ray Allen is just as good at scoring as Kevin Martin. Factor in that Kevin Martin is Steve Nash on defense, and I'll take Ray Allen everytime. If Kevin Martin even became passable on defense the Rockets' defensive efficiency would move up enough for them maybe to be in the playoffs.

Lets not be selective in our arguments please if you wanted to hold a debate don't pick and choose what you think matters because by your basis there are other players who is better is those selective aspects.
How am I being selective? Because I discard PER? Although very close, I give the offensive edge to Ray Allen because of his reputation. I said assists and rebounds are wash from pure production standpoint and TRB%, AST%, and TO%. The only thing left to compare is defense, and Allen is superior on defense to Kevin Martin.

So by your reasoning it holds ZERO ground? It's a complete and utter waste of a statistic and should be banished from every single statistical debate? I must say that is indeed interesting that your opinion is better than that of a universally accepted (for the most part accurate) statistic of evaluating a players efficiency. I fully agree that it indeed has many flaws and should NOT be used as the end all to all stats BUT to say its garbage and should never be used is a garbage statement. That is my opinion.

Yes, it holds zero ground and shouldn't be used in any argument. You can achieve comparing players much easily without as many flaws without it being included in any argument. It's universally accepted because it is fed to us by the global leader in sports. You really think front offices talk about PER in meetings? C'mon. If you want to know who the top 100 players are in any order, go ahead use PER.


Wait weren't you the .... defensive player.
Already covered everything you said. We don't know what would happen if players switch places besides an accepted variance of their numbers. For all we know. although unlikely, Ray Allen could score 30 ppg in Martin's role. We don't know.

Quick question. What means did you use to evaluate Martin's defensive efficiency or rather inefficiency?
He gives up a .508 eFG% against opposing SGs (82games.com) and has 116 Drtg on a team that has a 108 Drtg.

KingPosey
06-28-2011, 04:48 PM
Kevin martin never in his life was better than Ray Allen

Hes better than him right now. That is more because of the fact Ray is diminishing than KMart actually passing him up.

Chacarron
06-28-2011, 05:24 PM
Why the **** is Monta winning this?

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 06:23 PM
I never said it as if it was a bad thing. This isn't about Kevin Martin being bad at scoring because he isn't. He's very good. My point is that Ray Allen scores at an extremely high efficiency on a relatively inefficient team. And I can't discredit him for not taking/getting more shots which would raise his scoring. At what expense to his efficiency? We don't know that answer. All I know is that he's the most feared shooter in league. More feared than Kevin Martin.

Either way, right now Kevin Martin produces at a higher rate as the leading score on a respected team. Though not a playoff team he did have a great impact on their winning record, that is something which can't be denied.

He is indeed the most feared shooter in the league I %100 agree. However is he a more feared scorer? In their prime Allen was more feared than T-Mac in terms of shooting but not as a scorer. YES Allen is a more efficient scorer than Martin but in terms of a volume scorer he currently does not stack up. Efficiency isn't everything when comparing players. As I said Afflalo would be the best SG in the game if we are talk purely efficiency.


But it's true. WS, OWS, and WS/48 all use pure points produced. Not the efficiency at which those points are produced. So whoever scores more relative to their team's output is going to have higher OWS which factors into WS and WS/48.


So tell me something. Is it not true that the reason that Martin has a higher WS/48 despite have less WS than Allen is because he produces at a higher rate than Allen in less time. Is that not a fact? So isn't the fact that Martin's points produced rating better than that of Allen a good thing?

Also are we forgetting DWS. Don't DWS does that not take DRtg into consideration (something which you used in your case for Martin being inferior to Allen). DWS (and all that it is made up of) has just as much to do with WS and WS/48 as all that makes up OWS. So to say that the only reason Martin has a superior WS/48 is because he shoots more (which is wrong) is ignorant of other factors IMO.



We can't argue this because we don't know. I don't see a difference in today's Ray Allen and 2007 Ray Allen. You can't say for certain what his numbers would be on the Rockets. Yes, he enjoys a complimentary role on a team with no dominant player. Is that supposed to work against him?

No one knows, however conventional wisdom and understanding of their respective games tells us that on the Houston Rockets Allen's game would not have the same weight as on the Boston Celtics. I mean it is no surprise that at 35 he posted the highest DWS of his career. He indeed benefits from those around and they are very impactful on his overall worth.

If you say you see no difference in 07 Ray and today's Ray then that's fine that's what your eyes tell you, my eyes and the statistics tell me different. He is still a dead eye shooter but there is a whole lot more to his game than his shooting efficiency.


I never said anything about Ray Allen being the far superior player. What I was trying to get across to all the people voting for Kevin Martin is that Ray Allen is just as good at scoring as Kevin Martin. Factor in that Kevin Martin is Steve Nash on defense, and I'll take Ray Allen everytime. If Kevin Martin even became passable on defense the Rockets' defensive efficiency would move up enough for them maybe to be in the playoffs.

This Ray Allen is NOT as good as Martin at scoring. That is wrong. If that was the case then Arron Afflao would be the best scoring SG in the entire NBA.

Your problem is is that you make your case for scoring solely on efficiency and completely ignoring scoring volume. There are too many holes in your logic. By you reasoning Reggie Miller is a better scorer than Michael Jordan. You ignore various factors while focusing on others to formulate your case. You are indeed being selective in favouring Allen.


How am I being selective? Because I discard PER? Although very close, I give the offensive edge to Ray Allen because of his reputation. I said assists and rebounds are wash from pure production standpoint and TRB%, AST%, and TO%. The only thing left to compare is defense, and Allen is superior on defense to Kevin Martin.

You are being selective because the only things you mention are scoring efficiency and ignore the fact that Martin scores more and at a higher rate. You say he takes more shots like if it is a bad thing but at no point in any of your arguments have you mentioned that Martin scores more. You say Allen is a better scorer, based solely on the fact that he's more efficient. As I said before if that is your reason for calling his a better scorer then he is clearly The Elite offensive SG in the NBA.


Yes, it holds zero ground and shouldn't be used in any argument. You can achieve comparing players much easily without as many flaws without it being included in any argument. It's universally accepted because it is fed to us by the global leader in sports. You really think front offices talk about PER in meetings? C'mon. If you want to know who the top 100 players are in any order, go ahead use PER.

You act as if I say PER is the end it all to all stats. You act as if I say PER is the God of stats. You act as if I was being as ignorant as yourself and saying paying attention to one stat alone and not everything else.

You really think front offices talk about WARP, WARP2, WS, WS/48, SPM (Martin finished 20th last season 3.86 where as Ray Allen failed to place in the top 50 2.29), VORP, EWA, etc etc etc?

Because front offices don't speak of these statistics in their meetings does that mean that we shouldn't debate them here? That makes no sense to me. Just because you have your opinion on a statistic that does NOT mean that it holds no ground in our discussions. We all have our opinions I however understand and embrace the basis on which these statistics are based, not ignoring their flaws but applying them where necessary.


Already covered everything you said. We don't know what would happen if players switch places besides an accepted variance of their numbers. For all we know. although unlikely, Ray Allen could score 30 ppg in Martin's role. We don't know.

To speak again of Martin's offensive worth last season he finished 3rd among all SGs int the NBA in OSPM (Offensive Statistical +/-).


Player G Min OSPM
LeBron James 79 3063 7.30
Kobe Bryant 82 2779 6.75
Derrick Rose 81 3026 6.41
Chris Paul 80 2865 6.34
Dwyane Wade 76 2824 5.89
Kevin Martin 80 2603 5.83
Deron Williams 65 2465 5.61
Kevin Durant 78 3038 5.59
Manu Ginobili 80 2426 5.50
Kevin Love 73 2611 5.33
Dirk Nowitzki 73 2504 4.93
Ru Westbrook 82 2847 4.88
Steve Nash 75 2497 4.46
Melo Anthony 77 2751 4.39
C Billups 72 2310 4.09
Eric Gordon 56 2112 4.05
Zach Randolph 75 2724 3.80
Stephen Curry 74 2489 3.80
Louis Williams 75 1747 3.71
Tony Parker 78 2528 3.47
Blake Griffin 82 3112 3.34
Paul Pierce 80 2774 3.28
Pau Gasol 82 3037 3.23
Monta Ellis 80 3227 3.19
Ty Lawson 80 2103 2.97
L Aldridge 81 3211 2.96
Ray Allen 80 2890 2.75

As you see Allen is 8th among league SGs.


He gives up a .508 eFG% against opposing SGs (82games.com) and has 116 Drtg on a team that has a 108 Drtg.

I will not dispute any sensible argument on his defensive I was just interested in knowing where you got your information from. I don't buy into the sole use of DRtg, whether it be in a team base use or on an individual basis. It has great flaws and can't be used independently. Though I can also debate eFG% I won't because there is no doubt in my mind that Allen is indeed superior to Martin on that end of the floor.

Lakersfan2483
06-28-2011, 06:34 PM
Ray Allen

Mile High Champ
06-28-2011, 06:37 PM
#5 Thread is now complete, 6 is up..

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 07:05 PM
Really a shame that Monta won this poll with just one poster (Tredigs) taking the time to actually make a case for him.

tredigs
06-28-2011, 07:46 PM
Really a shame that Monta won this poll with just one poster (Tredigs) taking the time to actually make a case for him.

Someone's gotta up that trade value! ; ]

With/possibly slightly ahead of Martin - I actually do think he had the best case for #4, though (let alone 5).

Swashcuff
06-28-2011, 09:37 PM
Someone's gotta up that trade value! ; ]

With/possibly slightly ahead of Martin - I actually do think he had the best case for #4, though (let alone 5).

Honestly I don't mind if Kieth Bogans wins the poll.... lol. I would just like to see reason behind it. Had posters given logical reasons for their choice and swayed the opinion of others (I must admit I lightened my stance on Monta after reading your posts) I will have no gripe with any of these polls.