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Mile High Champ
06-26-2011, 05:52 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 3 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best

2011 SG Rankings

1) Dwyane Wade
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Manu Ginobili
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)



2010 Off-Season SG Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Manu Ginobili
6) Monta Ellis
7) Ray Allen
8) Stephen Jackson
9) O.J. Mayo
10) Jason Richardson

2009 Off-Season SG Rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Vince Carter
6) Manu Ginobili
7) Ray Allen
8) Kevin Martin
9) Ben Gordon
10) Richard Hamilton

2008 Off-Season SG rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Tracy McGrady
4) Allen Iverson
5) Manu Ginobili
5) Vince Carter
7) Joe Johnson
8) Ray Allen
9) Brandon Roy
10) Kevin Martin

Mile High Champ
06-26-2011, 05:56 PM
Poll is now up. Lets vote.

haggis
06-26-2011, 05:57 PM
Kevin Martin.

Swashcuff
06-26-2011, 05:58 PM
I got Kevin Martin here

Ryan328
06-26-2011, 05:58 PM
I like Joe Johnson here

heatbb
06-26-2011, 05:59 PM
Between Kevin Martin and Eric Gordon imo. Gordon has so much potential still to show so I went with him.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 05:59 PM
Joe Johnson for sure!!

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 06:00 PM
Kevin Martin doesnt have an all around game like Johnson

He just scores and thats it. Johnson scores but also passes, play defense, rebounds, is a leader, and I rather have him as my 1st option than Kevin Martin

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2011, 06:01 PM
I got Ray Allen. He's better all-around than Martin.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 06:02 PM
Joe Johnson is only 29 and already a 5 time all star and made an all NBA team and will have many more

Martin wont even do that his whole career and is already 28

Avenged
06-26-2011, 06:02 PM
Kevin Martin followed by Eric Gordon.

Initially I had Martin, Ellis, Gordon.. But now I'm going with Martin, Gordon, and Ellis.

Mile High Champ
06-26-2011, 06:03 PM
Kevin Martin for me though it is a hard choice. It was between him, Ray Allen and Joe Johnson for me.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 06:04 PM
Plus I would have Johnson, Ellis, Gordon, and Ray Allen over Martin

If I wanted a perfect 6th man thats the 2nd option on my team like Terry

I would love to have Martin, Martin is the 7th-8th best SG

Mile High Champ
06-26-2011, 06:04 PM
Joe Johnson is only 29 and already a 5 time all star and made an all NBA team and will have many more

Martin wont even do that his whole career and is already 28

All star selections really don't prove anything.

Avenged
06-26-2011, 06:05 PM
:laugh2: I completely forgot about Ray Allen..

5-7 will be very interesting..

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2011, 06:05 PM
looking at the stats, probably shoulda voted for Kevin Martin...oh well.

Avenged
06-26-2011, 06:06 PM
I posted this in the other thread, i'll put it here too:


Not sure why Martin is getting so disrespected here.

He holds a higher PER than Ellis, JJ, Gordon, and Tyreke.

He has a higher TS% than those I mentioned.

He's tied in eFG% with Gordon but beats everyone else out.

He leads them in Win Shares and WS/48.

Martin averages 23 efficient points with a higher 3 point % and FT%.

This is not to mention he plays the less minutes than them all but produces more.

This was before looking at Ray, but I think Martin/Gordon/Ray/Ellis are all a bit close.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 06:07 PM
All star selections really don't prove anything.

The ones that the coaches select does :eyebrow:

They pick very critically the best NBA players THAT YEAR

GREATNESS ONE
06-26-2011, 06:07 PM
I have Martin here followed by Ellis.

jp611
06-26-2011, 06:09 PM
Nick Young :laugh2:

sixer04fan
06-26-2011, 06:09 PM
Joe Johnson - Kevin Martin - Monta Ellis... Should be a good man race...

Swashcuff
06-26-2011, 06:09 PM
Joe Johnson is only 29 and already a 5 time all star and made an all NBA team and will have many more

Martin wont even do that his whole career and is already 28

What does any of this have to do with who is better RIGHT NOW. Joe Johnson is arguably the most underwhelming 5 time all star in NBA history.

Mile High Champ
06-26-2011, 06:10 PM
The ones that the coaches select does :eyebrow:

They pick very critically the best NBA players THAT YEAR

The West has always had deeper talent at the guard position. I am not surprised that a guy like Martin has not had many selections though we are talking about which player is better right now. Not which player has the better track record.

KB24PG16
06-26-2011, 06:10 PM
I got johnson here martin isn't as good

Swashcuff
06-26-2011, 06:11 PM
The ones that the coaches select does :eyebrow:

They pick very critically the best NBA players THAT YEAR

No. Jason Kidd was picked by the coaches last year when there were players who were more deserving. Players get snubbed across the board whether it be by coaches or fans.

Swashcuff
06-26-2011, 06:12 PM
Kevin Martin followed by Eric Gordon.

Initially I had Martin, Ellis, Gordon.. But now I'm going with Martin, Gordon, and Ellis.

Its tough to put Martin ahead of Gordon for me. IMO had Gordon remained healthy all season long he would have challenged Manu for the 3rd spot and would have been a certainty here at 4.

KB24PG16
06-26-2011, 06:12 PM
Johnson
Ellis
Martin
In that order imo

MELO7NYK/DENfan
06-26-2011, 06:14 PM
I went with Ray Allen best 3 point shooter in the game and with a well rounded game.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 06:14 PM
I got johnson here martin isn't as good

:clap:

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 06:15 PM
Teague
Martin
Williams
Smith
Horford

Would have a way worse record IMO

tredigs
06-26-2011, 06:16 PM
I'll go ahead and take Ellis here. I wavered between him and Martin - the only two #1 options left (I think Gordon could pass both this season, just not quite there yet), but Monta was so clutch in 4th quarters this season (even if the W's still lost most of them, he was always killing it). I didn't know how Martin was in the clutch, but after checking it out on '82games', it seems he was pretty terrible: 37% FG, 22% from three - and terribly weak play-making for the team. Link to their clutch-time stats: http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

Martin's ability to get to the line sets him up as a more efficient scorer throughout the game (gives him a solid ts%) but his atrocious clutch play in contrast to Monta's elite clutch play set the two apart for me.

Avenged
06-26-2011, 06:17 PM
I don't think we should evaluate the postseason as much when some players weren't fortunate enough to make it, but JJ had a poor one. The guy was barely on the league avg on PER, shot a bad percentage, and turned the ball over at a high rate.

This is not to mention his regular season was not as great as some of these other guys. The guy is getting voted on pure reputation now. JJ is not even the best player on his own team. Josh Smith and Al Horford are better.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 06:17 PM
If we are going on stats, I guess we might as well put Randolph for best PF lol

But no Dirk is the best PF. Joe Johnson is a better PLAYER and SG than Martin

Martin is just a better scorer

tredigs
06-26-2011, 06:20 PM
You'll have to scroll a ways past Kevin Martin to get to Joe Johnson on that list I linked for 82games' top clutch performers. He was also terrible in the clutch, and as always - an overwhelming disappointment in the playoffs. Despite his contract, the guy is not a top 5 shooting guard. I'll take Eric Gordon over him 10 out of 10 times.

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2011, 06:22 PM
Teague
Martin
Williams
Smith
Horford

Would have a way worse record IMO

u do know Joe Johnson sucked this year right?

Rivera
06-26-2011, 06:26 PM
i like kevin martin and he had a special year i just dont trust the guy

in all honesty id rather have monta as my #1 option/threat than kevin martin

to me i think its between ray/JJ/monta JJ/monta are #1 options while rays game clutchness is so sexy and hes actually the best defender on this list IMO

ima surprise some ppl and take monta

if you looked soley at the advanced stats the choice is kevin martin and it isnt even close really

tredigs
06-26-2011, 06:28 PM
You guys have to realize that Joe Johnson also regressed this season - he wasn't a good player. His rebounding was down, defense was lazy, 3pt shooting plummeted down to 29%, scoring dropped to 18 a game and the guy was just a generally mediocre/pretty good talent throughout the season/playoffs.

Yet, he's leading this poll early on and has a contract that is going to fork him 25 Million in 2016! This man is a sorcerer...

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-26-2011, 06:32 PM
Allen. JJ and Martin are overrated.

haggis
06-26-2011, 06:32 PM
Yet, he's leading this poll early on and has a contract that is going to fork him 25 Million in 2016! This man is a sorcerer...

That is still unbelievable. Atlanta has essentially killed themselves for years with that contract.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 06:33 PM
If we are going for best contracts I guess Eric Gordon should be the #1 SG

I didnt know this was the best SG contracts

haggis
06-26-2011, 06:35 PM
If we are going for best contracts I guess Eric Gordon should be the #1 SG

I didnt know this was the best SG contracts

The whole significant declining production thing really doesn't do it for you, huh?

Avenged
06-26-2011, 06:38 PM
If we are going for best contracts I guess Eric Gordon should be the #1 SG

I didnt know this was the best SG contracts

What are you providing for your argument? If you think JJ is better, prove it. Because currently, there are a couple more SG's that have produced more than him, while JJ has actually digressed. If it isn't about stats, then what does JJ do better than these other SG's

Cano4prez
06-26-2011, 06:42 PM
Johnson for me

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-26-2011, 06:43 PM
What are you providing for your argument? If you think JJ is better, prove it. Because currently, there are a couple more SG's that have produced more than him, while JJ has actually digressed. If it isn't about stats, then what does JJ do better than these other SG's

He gets more money than he should.

Jewelz0376
06-26-2011, 06:47 PM
It was between Ellis and Martin for me...

The way I looked at it is this...Neither play defense...so that's a wash... Martin is a better scorer...He gets 24ppg on 16 shots...Not to mention he's getting that in about 33 mins...compared to ellis who's playing 40.... Ellis can setting up teammates better, but not enough to make up for Martins scoring advantage...

tredigs
06-26-2011, 07:06 PM
Johnson is leading the poll, somebody please make a case for me that he was better than Monta Ellis this year.

Here are some of JJ, Martin and Ellis' raw numbers from this past year:





Player Season Age FG% 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS

Joe J. 2010-11 29 .443 .297 2.7 3.4 .802 0.8 3.2 4.0 4.7 0.7 0.1 2.0 1.8 18.2

Martin 2010-11 27 .436 .383 7.4 8.4 .888 0.4 2.9 3.2 2.5 1.0 0.2 2.3 1.9 23.5

Monta 2010-11 25 .451 .361 4.3 5.4 .789 0.6 3.0 3.5 5.6 2.1 0.3 3.2 2.5 24.1



And some of their per-48-minute adjusted Clutch numbers (last 5 minutes of close games).

Joe J: 29.6 pts (35% FG, 31% 3pt), 4.9 rbs, 5.4 ast, 4.5 TO's, 0 blks, 0.4 steals.

K. Martin: 36.9 pts (38% FG, 23% 3pt), 2.3 rbs, 1.7 ast, 2.3 TO's, 0.6 blks, 1.2 stls.

Monta: 44.4 pts (48% FG, 44% 3pt), 3.7 rbs, 4.0 ast, 3.1 TO's, 0 blks, 2.5 stls.

I think Martin, Gordon, Ray and Monta is a good debate, but Joe Johnson is truly not in the discussion for me. And given those clutch numbers from Monta being significantly better than these two, I think he's the most logical pick here.

Hawkeye15
06-26-2011, 07:07 PM
Kevin Martin for me. Many will complain he only does one thing. But that thing he does, scoring, he does more efficiently than anyone else. Ray Ray deserves a nod here as well, but he just doesn't carry as much of a load as Martin anymore.

Lakers + Giants
06-26-2011, 07:13 PM
I voted Joe Johnson. I do however think he's overrated despite so many people saying he's underrated.

believeinNYK
06-26-2011, 07:21 PM
went with ellis, JJ had a bad year and ellis had highest efficiency out of Johnson, Allen, Gordon and Martin

astrosmaniac
06-26-2011, 07:29 PM
to anyone trying to make the argument that JJ does other stuff much better than martin, here are some stats:

JJ: DRTG - 110, DWS 1.8, STL % - 1.0

Martin: DRTG - 111, DWS 1.5, STL% 1.6

so on D they are virtually identical, while martin kills him on offense

as for the debate about ray ray/ellis/gordon/martin ill take martin but can understand why some might say otherwise

tredigs
06-26-2011, 07:30 PM
went with ellis, JJ had a bad year and ellis had highest efficiency out of Johnson, Allen, Gordon and Martin

Efficiency? No, he was more efficient than Johnson, but the other three were very efficient.


I voted Joe Johnson. I do however think he's overrated despite so many people saying he's underrated.

Seriously, I'm curious. What is the argument for Joe Johnson over these other guys? I think people could make a case that Wes Johnson was better than J.J.

He's leading the poll, but nobody can articulate why?

DetroitBadBoy
06-26-2011, 07:39 PM
Tyreke Evans, injury held him back last season but he had the 20-5-5 in his rookie season. I see him coming back good.

theheatles
06-26-2011, 07:40 PM
jesus shuttlesworth all day

blastmasta26
06-26-2011, 07:49 PM
I'm going with Kevin Martin, his efficiency in terms of scoring as a whole is tremendous.

And if Joe Johnson wins this poll, that is a travesty. Statistically, he was clearly behind Martin, Ellis, Eric Gordon, and Ray Allen. Anything higher than the 8 spot is overrating Johnson in my opinion, and shows that many people here are voting purely based on past reputation rather than objective analysis of the present.

Jewelz0376
06-26-2011, 07:52 PM
I think some of you voting for JJ are just thinking of Joe Johnson from pasts years

Giraffes Rule
06-26-2011, 07:57 PM
I'm going with Kevin Martin, his efficiency in terms of scoring as a whole is tremendous.

And if Joe Johnson wins this poll, that is a travesty. Statistically, he was clearly behind Martin, Ellis, Eric Gordon, and Ray Allen. Anything higher than the 8 spot is overrating Johnson in my opinion, and shows that many people here are voting purely based on past reputation rather than objective analysis of the present.

You can look at the point guard list and see that.

tredigs
06-26-2011, 08:00 PM
to anyone trying to make the argument that JJ does other stuff much better than martin, here are some stats:

JJ: DRTG - 110, DWS 1.8, STL % - 1.0

Martin: DRTG - 111, DWS 1.5, STL% 1.6

so on D they are virtually identical, while martin kills him on offense

as for the debate about ray ray/ellis/gordon/martin ill take martin but can understand why some might say otherwise

D-Rating, especially at a guard slot, is a team stat though. That's why we saw Ray Allen's jump from 112 and 116 his final years in Seatle immediately down to a near elite 103 once he joined Garnett/Perkins in Boston.

Kashmir13579
06-26-2011, 08:02 PM
I think Ray Allen gets this spot.

Its too early for him, but I hope Crawford doesn't get snubbed from the list again this year.

Hustlenomics
06-26-2011, 08:05 PM
Joe Johnson is the best all around player here

TheRunKiller
06-26-2011, 08:06 PM
who voted for demar derozen? lol

AKAYaReal
06-26-2011, 08:09 PM
testing the sickest sig in the world made by knicksr4real

NBA-GMaster
06-26-2011, 08:10 PM
Kevin Martin..

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 08:15 PM
Ellis is actually passing Martin!!!

This is gonna be a 3 way race, Go Johnson

Ill21
06-26-2011, 08:17 PM
testing the sickest sig in the world made by knicksr4real

Bryrob58
06-26-2011, 08:18 PM
I'd like to see what Eric Gordon can do in a full, healthy season. I feel like he will average 24+ ppg and become a great number 2 option. My vote went to Gordon based on that thinking, though Ellis should probably be winning this poll.

Joe Johnson? Seriously, PSD?

Kashmir13579
06-26-2011, 08:18 PM
Johnson is leading the poll, somebody please make a case for me that he was better than Monta Ellis this year.

Here are some of JJ, Martin and Ellis' raw numbers from this past year:





Player Season Age FG% 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS

Joe J. 2010-11 29 .443 .297 2.7 3.4 .802 0.8 3.2 4.0 4.7 0.7 0.1 2.0 1.8 18.2

Martin 2010-11 27 .436 .383 7.4 8.4 .888 0.4 2.9 3.2 2.5 1.0 0.2 2.3 1.9 23.5

Monta 2010-11 25 .451 .361 4.3 5.4 .789 0.6 3.0 3.5 5.6 2.1 0.3 3.2 2.5 24.1



And some of their per-48-minute adjusted Clutch numbers (last 5 minutes of close games).

Joe J: 29.6 pts (35% FG, 31% 3pt), 4.9 rbs, 5.4 ast, 4.5 TO's, 0 blks, 0.4 steals.

K. Martin: 36.9 pts (38% FG, 23% 3pt), 2.3 rbs, 1.7 ast, 2.3 TO's, 0.6 blks, 1.2 stls.

Monta: 44.4 pts (48% FG, 44% 3pt), 3.7 rbs, 4.0 ast, 3.1 TO's, 0 blks, 2.5 stls.

I think Martin, Gordon, Ray and Monta is a good debate, but Joe Johnson is truly not in the discussion for me. And given those clutch numbers from Monta being significantly better than these two, I think he's the most logical pick here.

Monta sticks our like a sore thumb, here.

douglas
06-26-2011, 08:20 PM
Monta Ellis

Ill21
06-26-2011, 08:22 PM
jj

KnicksR4Real
06-26-2011, 08:24 PM
jj

KnicksR4Real
06-26-2011, 08:25 PM
its joe, he had a really down year, but besides that, hes a great player

tredigs
06-26-2011, 08:26 PM
Nobody cares about the single name answers fellas, that's what the poll is for. Make a case.

I've still yet to see anyone make anything but the most bland/general lines possible as to why Johnson is better than any of these guys.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 08:26 PM
I wish the Mavs had JJ!!!!! :(

Kidd
Johnson
Butler
Dirk
Chandler

Avenged
06-26-2011, 08:28 PM
Joe Johnson?? Monta? Come on now..

Bryrob58
06-26-2011, 08:36 PM
LT really needs to stop.. Just because NBA 2K11 makes a dude a high rating doesn't mean it's accurate.. Go look at some stats. If the Mavs had JJ, they wouldn't be able to afford Chandler, and therefore the team would be worse. Stop making yourself look silly, and as Tredigs has said, back up your opinion.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-26-2011, 08:41 PM
This is a joke.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 08:41 PM
LT really needs to stop.. Just because NBA 2K11 makes a dude a high rating doesn't mean it's accurate.. Go look at some stats. If the Mavs had JJ, they wouldn't be able to afford Chandler, and therefore the team would be worse. Stop making yourself look silly, and as Tredigs has said, back up your opinion.

Thats just the starting line up :) I traded JJ Barea, Brewer, Haywood, Marion, 1 First round pick, 2 Second round picks for Johnson haha

Kidd
Johnson
Butler (signs for way less)
Dirk
Chandler

Roddy
Terry
Fernandez
Cardinal
Mahinmi

tredigs
06-26-2011, 08:42 PM
Joe Johnson?? Monta? Come on now..

Martin's great at drawing contact/knocking down the gimme (and draws higher efficiency numbers as a result - despite having a similar eFG%), but he can't take over an offense when it counts like Monta did this past season. Those '82games' clutch stats I posted were pretty telling, I thought: http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM. Ellis nestled in right between Lebron and Durant while being FAR more efficient than both? Not to mention clearly ahead of Martin/JJ. I think that says something about the level of production he produced.

He still takes over to a fault at times, but truth be told it proved damn effective/important for the Warriors late in games this year when Curry refused to push; just a more explosive/better playmaker than Martin also. I'm on board with an argument of Martin over him, but it's not as if it's a clear answer whatsoever. And as much as I've bagged on Monta through the years, I'd say he's a better player than Martin at this point. With the right team/coach, Monta would be such a good piece.

And we're still yet to see one argument for JJ... haha.

believeinNYK
06-26-2011, 08:43 PM
I wish the Mavs had JJ!!!!! :(Kidd
Johnson
Butler
Dirk
Chandler

For 120 million you wouldnt...

Avenged
06-26-2011, 08:48 PM
Martin's great at drawing contact/knocking down the gimme (and draws higher efficiency numbers as a result - despite having a similar eFG%), but he can't take over an offense when it counts like Monta did this past season. Those '82games' clutch stats I posted were pretty telling, I thought: http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM. Ellis nestled in right between Lebron and Durant while being FAR more efficient than both? Not to mention clearly ahead of Martin/JJ. I think that says something about the level of production he produced.

He still takes over to a fault at times, but truth be told it proved damn effective/important for the Warriors late in games this year when Curry refused to push; just a more explosive/better playmaker than Martin also. I'm on board with an argument of Martin over him, but it's not as if it's a clear answer whatsoever. And as much as I've bagged on Monta through the years, I'd say he's a better player than Martin at this point. With the right team/coach, Monta would be such a good piece.

And we're still yet to see one argument for JJ... haha.

Agreed on Monta, I just don't think he's better than Martin for this spot. I have Monta right at #5, maybe 6 since I do like Gordon but nothing less. I think he needs to improve a lot on the defensive end.

As far as JJ goes, i'd be quick to argue Josh Smith and Al Horford to be better than him.

Bryrob58
06-26-2011, 08:49 PM
I think I could make an argument for a healthy Tyreke to be better than Johnson.. Along with Gordon, Ellis, Ray, and Martin. At this point, Johnson probably isn't a top 50 player in the league.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 08:53 PM
I think I could make an argument for a healthy Tyreke to be better than Johnson.. Along with Gordon, Ellis, Ray, and Martin. At this point, Johnson probably isn't a top 50 player in the league.

Hahaha you make me laugh :)

Bryrob58
06-26-2011, 08:57 PM
Are you at all aware of how Johnson played last year, or are you just assuming it wasn't that bad?

tredigs
06-26-2011, 09:13 PM
Hmmm... roughly...

1. Lebron
2. Dwight
3. Cp3
4. Wade
5. Dirk
6. Durant
7. Kobe
8. Rose
9. D. Williams
10. Pau
11. Westbrook
12. Melo
13. Amare
14. Z-Bo
15. Blake Griffin
16. Bosh
17. Pierce
18. Rondo
19. Ginobili
20. Nash
21. Lemarcus Aldridge
22. K. Love
23. J Smoove
24. Garnett
25. Igoudala
26. Bogut
27. Al Jefferson
28. Rudy Gay
29. Al Horford
30. Monta
31. David West
32. Tony Parker
33. Bynum
34. Kevin Martin
35. Eric Gordon

Now... with guys like Millsap, Brook Lopez, Scola, Odom, Curry, etc. we're getting into Joe Johnson territory. I'd say he WAS a top 20 player for a few years, and last year did not play like a top 40 player.

Bryrob58
06-26-2011, 09:19 PM
He absolutely was a top 20 player at one point, but going forward, your list looks fairly accurate. It needs to be noted that there arent that many good SGs in the league, just like Centers. I'd rather have a guy like Jrue Holiday, who would have been around #13 in point guards, over Johnson, who should be like, #8 or so under SGs.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-26-2011, 09:25 PM
Hmmm... roughly...

1. Lebron
2. Dwight
3. Cp3
4. Wade
5. Dirk
6. Durant
7. Kobe
8. Rose
9. D. Williams
10. Pau
11. Westbrook
12. Melo
13. Amare
14. Z-Bo
15. Blake Griffin
16. Bosh
17. Pierce
18. Rondo
19. Ginobili
20. Nash
21. Lemarcus Aldridge
22. K. Love
23. J Smoove
24. Garnett
25. Igoudala
26. Bogut
27. Al Jefferson
28. Rudy Gay
29. Al Horford
30. Monta
31. David West
32. Tony Parker
33. Bynum
34. Kevin Martin
35. Eric Gordon

Now... with guys like Millsap, Brook Lopez, Scola, Odom, Curry, etc. we're getting into Joe Johnson territory. I'd say he WAS a top 20 player for a few years, and last year did not play like a top 40 player.

Where's Ray Ray?

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 09:26 PM
Joe Johnson is the 4th best SG but not the in top 50 players in the NBA? hahahaha

Good thing this is just PSD not professional analyst :)

bigA9331
06-26-2011, 09:28 PM
Ray!

THE GIPPER
06-26-2011, 09:29 PM
i voted for ray allen and i thought he would get more votes tbh i wasnt too impressed wth jj in the playoffs and kevin martin is just too bad at D

Bryrob58
06-26-2011, 09:34 PM
Joe Johnson is the 4th best SG but not the in top 50 players in the NBA? hahahaha

Good thing this is just PSD not professional analyst :)

Again, back up your statements. Why is he 4th best, in your opinion? I'm not looking to single you out here, but I'm interested in knowing your reasoning.

blastmasta26
06-26-2011, 09:34 PM
Joe Johnson is the 4th best SG but not the in top 50 players in the NBA? hahahaha

Good thing this is just PSD not professional analyst :)
Joe Johnson is NOT the 4th best SG in the league. Check his stats if you don't believe it.

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2011, 09:40 PM
Joe Johnson completely sucked this year...people are just voting him because of his name. What a joke.

And respect to the guys who voted for Derozan. RAPS 4 LYFE

tredigs
06-26-2011, 09:41 PM
Where's Ray Ray?

Close. 35 to 50 tier for me.

Htownballa1622
06-26-2011, 10:05 PM
Again, back up your statements. Why is he 4th best, in your opinion? I'm not looking to single you out here, but I'm interested in knowing your reasoning.

I just want one person to defend joe johnson because I'd honestly like to know.

I haven't heard anything yet.

Bruno
06-26-2011, 10:14 PM
Joe Johnson?! What are you people talking about??

He has to be the most over-rated player in the NBA. At least top 3.

Hustlenomics
06-26-2011, 10:21 PM
Joe Johnson?! What are you people talking about??

He has to be the most over-rated player in the NBA. At least top 3.

he's been vastly underrated since he signed that lucrative contract

Romo2Bryant
06-26-2011, 10:21 PM
joe johnson I guess..

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2011, 10:25 PM
he's been vastly underrated since he signed that lucrative contract

lol are u kidding me? the guy sucked this year. he's so overrated.

Ill21
06-26-2011, 10:27 PM
Monta

DR_1
06-26-2011, 10:27 PM
Joe Johnson - most complete player on the list.

Crackadalic
06-26-2011, 10:36 PM
People are getting confuse. JJ is a talented sg but he had a down year meaning his ranking should be lower. If your play doesnt show then it doesnt matter how good you were last year. Its about this year. JJ leading the way proves the basketball intelligence on this forum is low.

Between Ray allen, Kevin Martin, Monta, and JJ I think Ray Allen should take the 4th spot.

He has a higher TS% and efg then the other 3. His ORtg is 116 and only 2nd to Martin 117. He by far has a better DRtg then the other 3. Has the best WS then the other 3 and shot the best 3pt% with 44 and is the least turnover prone.

Ray Allen for me

Delfiffer
06-26-2011, 10:37 PM
joe johnson is overrated. I find it funny how he gets the most credit for the Hawks success yet the guy is the Hawks third best player. Anyone who watched ATL this season would know that Harford and Josh Smith were both better than Joe Johnson.
Kevin Martin should be 4th IMO

Revolu7i9n
06-26-2011, 10:41 PM
Where's Keith Bogans?

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 11:04 PM
If 18 pts 4 ast and 4 reb a game his down and horrible year I want him on my team lol :)

Just imagine a good year!!

$KnicksAndKobe$
06-26-2011, 11:08 PM
Ray Allen is a better SG than Manu and J.J.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 11:09 PM
Manu avg 17 pts, 5 ast, and 4 rebs a game this past year!!! JJ avg 18, 4, and 4

Basically same stats as Johnson, but JJ had the horrible and down year :)

Yall said nothing about Manu

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 11:11 PM
He had the same stats as Manu this season!!! And yall didnt say a word about Manu

Stop looking at his contract

Delfiffer
06-26-2011, 11:18 PM
manu clearly had a better season than joe johnson

Bruno
06-26-2011, 11:18 PM
Does anyone who voted for Monta/Ray/Martin prefer Johnson over two of the first three they didn't vote for?

GREATNESS ONE
06-26-2011, 11:21 PM
Does anyone who voted for Monta/ Ray/Martin prefer Johnson over two of the first three they didn't vote for?

No not even close.

Hustlenomics
06-26-2011, 11:24 PM
Does anyone who voted for Monta/Ray/Martin prefer Johnson over two of the first three they didn't vote for?

I prefer Johnson over Martin and Monta

Jewelz0376
06-26-2011, 11:33 PM
Does anyone who voted for Monta/Ray/Martin prefer Johnson over two of the first three they didn't vote for?

Nope I have all 3 of them ranked ahead of JJ..JJ just didn't have a good season this yr... at least not compared to his previous seasons

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 11:43 PM
Poll is looking good so far

JJ, Ellis, Ray Allen, then Martin

Then it should be Gordon, Terry, and Tony Allen/James Harden should round out the rest of the list

theheatles
06-26-2011, 11:45 PM
i hope ray can at least get #5

Delfiffer
06-26-2011, 11:45 PM
why are there so many more votes for ellis than martin? kevin martin had a better season than monta and was a bad call away from making the playoffs. Ellis's stats are inflated because he plays in the warriors fast paced system. Curry > Ellis last season IMO

D-Will4Prez
06-26-2011, 11:50 PM
Between Martin and Joe Johnson for me...went with Martin.

Ellis is overrated.

CountSackula
06-26-2011, 11:51 PM
Joe Johnson completely sucked this year...people are just voting him because of his name. What a joke.

First thing I thought when I rechecked the poll. Totally agree.

tredigs
06-26-2011, 11:54 PM
Besides Joe Johnson's poor season this past year (16.4 PER, terrible 'clutch' numbers), and down numbers across the board, his career playoff numbers border on comedy (given the fact that this is a 'Max' player).

Career playoff numbers: 16.9 pts (.418 FG%, .500 TS%... yikes), 4.5 rebs, 3.6 asts. PER of 14.1 and WS/48 of .037. He's actually posted negative WinShares in two different playoff years, and as we all know the Hawks have never made it past the 2nd round despite great 2nd/3rd options (who ironically are both better players than JJ).

Given these poll results and the fact that this guy will make 25 million in 2016, we may be talking about the most overrated player in NBA history.

Giraffes Rule
06-27-2011, 12:00 AM
Manu avg 17 pts, 5 ast, and 4 rebs a game this past year!!! JJ avg 18, 4, and 4

Basically same stats as Johnson, but JJ had the horrible and down year :)

Yall said nothing about Manu

lol per game stats

I don't even need to use advanced stats to show how misleading that is - just look at the minutes and shot attempts per game.

Bruno
06-27-2011, 12:06 AM
Besides Joe Johnson's poor season this past year (16.4 PER, terrible 'clutch' numbers), and down numbers across the board, his career playoff numbers border on comedy (given the fact that this is a 'Max' player).

Career playoff numbers: 16.9 pts (.418 FG%, .500 TS%... yikes), 4.5 rebs, 3.6 asts. PER of 14.1 and WS/48 of .037. He's actually posted negative WinShares in two different playoff years, and as we all know the Hawks have never made it past the 2nd round despite great 2nd/3rd options (who ironically are both better players than JJ).

Given these poll results and the fact that this guy will make 25 million in 2016, we may be talking about the most overrated player in NBA history.

:laugh2: :clap:

Based off his contract, and baring players with max deals who went through a serious injury- he'd be in the running. Ive been talking smack about that contract from day one; his playoff performances through the years (and this years) only continue to support my initial opinion. Vastly over-rated. Thats why I asked earlier if the monta/allen/martin voters would take Johnson last after those guys; I feel like everyone who finds Johnson to be over-rated are split between Allen/Martin/Ellis and that's why Johnson is running away with this poll.

tredigs
06-27-2011, 12:15 AM
:laugh2: :clap:

Based off his contract, and baring players with max deals who went through a serious injury- he'd be in the running. Ive been talking smack about that contract from day one; his playoff performances through the years (and this years) only continue to support my initial opinion. Vastly over-rated. Thats why I asked earlier if the monta/allen/martin voters would take Johnson last after those guys; I feel like everyone who finds Johnson to be over-rated are split between Allen/Martin/Ellis and that's why Johnson is running away with this poll.

Aha hmm... yeah, very possible. I definitely have all of those guys over him - and think those three are debatable.

iFYouSeekAmy
06-27-2011, 12:19 AM
why are there so many more votes for ellis than martin? kevin martin had a better season than monta and was a bad call away from making the playoffs. Ellis's stats are inflated because he plays in the warriors fast paced system. Curry > Ellis last season IMO

This shows that you know nothing.

Warriors were barely a fast paced team that season. They actually slowed it down tryna play defense. Curry was not better than Ellis last season. In fact, Curry was horrible last season. :laugh2: He was on the bench quite some time because he couldn't defend to save his life. Ellis was had an efficient year and carried the team on his back. He was the sole reason why they were winning games, or were close to winning.

haggis
06-27-2011, 12:20 AM
Holy ****

Joe ****ing Johnson is winning this poll?

Seriously, did anybody watch the NBA this year?

Sadds The Gr8
06-27-2011, 12:22 AM
Holy ****

Joe ****ing Johnson is winning this poll?

Seriously, did anybody watch the NBA this year?

The NBA forum fails miserably.

RaidersLakers24
06-27-2011, 12:27 AM
Joe Johnson and Kevin Martin are overrated! Eric Gordon is a beast I got him #3

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 12:28 AM
I completely disagree with the way this vote has gone.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 12:29 AM
Joe Johnson and Kevin Martin are overrated! Eric Gordon is a beast I got him #3

There is no bigger Eric Gordon advocate than me, but sadly his health is something that should not be forgotten. As I said before had he stayed healthy all of last season I am certain that he would have had that #3 spot locked up but his inability to stay healthy and sustain such a high level of play over say 75+ games this far in his career has hurt him a ton in voting thus far.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 12:32 AM
Joe Johnson winning the poll for the 4th best SG in the league after having his worst season in years just proves to the fact that he is indeed one of if not the most overrated player in all of the NBA.

Bruno
06-27-2011, 12:34 AM
I completely disagree with the way this vote has gone.

I think a lot feel the same way. I think that at least half of the voters would put Johnson closer to 7-8 but because all of them are split over monta/allen/martin JJ is taking the poll.

CountSackula
06-27-2011, 12:38 AM
Do over!

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 12:40 AM
I am just happy JJ, Ellis, Ray Allen are all over Martin

Ebbs
06-27-2011, 12:43 AM
I don't mind JJ here. But if Martin falls behind Ellis or Ray I will jump off my balcony. (Only about 8 feet high should live.)

Delfiffer
06-27-2011, 12:48 AM
This shows that you know nothing.

Warriors were barely a fast paced team that season. They actually slowed it down tryna play defense. Curry was not better than Ellis last season. In fact, Curry was horrible last season. :laugh2: He was on the bench quite some time because he couldn't defend to save his life. Ellis was had an efficient year and carried the team on his back. He was the sole reason why they were winning games, or were close to winning.

I watched the warriors a lot this season and they did play at a fast past. Whether you think they did or not, doesn't changed the fact that they were one of the top teams in the league in ppg and possesions. And saying Ellis was more "efficient" than Curry is plain foolish. Curry may not have been clearly better than Ellis but he has the slight edge. How I view it is, threw the first half of the season (pre-asb) Ellis was the better player, but post allstar, Curry was by far better.
Overall, Curry had a higher PER, ORtg, DRtg, WS, OWS, and DWS than Ellis

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 12:52 AM
I want Johnson to get 100 votes :mad:

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 12:56 AM
Food for thought on Kevin Martin:

Missed 88 games in three seasons from 07-10, this is his first healthy season.

He had the worst Drtg for those who qualified on both SAC(08-09) and HOU(10-11). He's often regarded as the worst defender in the NBA, and deservingly so. He can't stay in front of 2s to save his life, and he's way too small to guard 3s (To put in perspective, every starting West Playoff SF was 30+ lbs bigger than him besides one. [15 lbs. bigger])

So he's extremely skinny, horrific defender (statistically worst defender on two different teams), has had serious injury problems in the past, he's a poor rebounder, and not a good passer.

People need to quit looking at PPG... Good lord...

Bruno
06-27-2011, 01:01 AM
Have any of the Johnson people presented an argument in his favor? What's the argument?

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 01:02 AM
Joe Johnson winning the poll for the 4th best SG in the league after having his worst season in years just proves to the fact that he is indeed one of if not the most overrated player in all of the NBA.

One season doesn't define you as a player. Joe Johnson was still a better rebounder, passer, defender, and leader then the competition right now last year. He had a down year offensively.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 01:05 AM
Let's put and end to this statistical debate and people quoting a few stats here and there just to make a case for one player over the other.

Basic


Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1 Ray Allen 2009-10 34 80 80 35.2 5.8 12.2 .477 1.8 5.0 .363 2.9 3.2 .913 0.6 2.6 3.2 2.6 0.8 0.3 1.6 2.3 16.3
2 Monta Ellis 2010-11 25 80 80 40.3 9.1 20.1 .451 1.7 4.7 .361 4.3 5.4 .789 0.6 3.0 3.5 5.6 2.1 0.3 3.2 2.5 24.1
3 Eric Gordon 2010-11 22 56 56 37.7 7.6 16.9 .450 1.9 5.2 .364 5.1 6.2 .825 0.8 2.1 2.9 4.4 1.3 0.3 2.7 2.1 22.3
4 Joe Johnson 2010-11 29 72 72 35.5 7.1 16.1 .443 1.2 4.2 .297 2.7 3.4 .802 0.8 3.2 4.0 4.7 0.7 0.1 2.0 1.8 18.2
5 Kevin Martin 2010-11 27 80 80 32.5 6.9 15.8 .436 2.2 5.7 .383 7.4 8.4 .888 0.4 2.9 3.2 2.5 1.0 0.2 2.3 1.9 23.5

Advanced


Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Ray Allen 2009-10 34 80 2819 15.2 .601 .551 2.0 8.8 5.5 12.3 1.2 0.7 10.6 20.2 115 108 5.1 2.9 7.9 0.135
2 Monta Ellis 2010-11 25 80 3227 18.6 .536 .493 1.5 8.5 4.9 23.4 2.6 0.5 12.3 28.1 107 112 4.3 1.7 6.0 0.089
3 Eric Gordon 2010-11 22 56 2112 18.5 .566 .506 2.5 6.6 4.5 20.7 1.7 0.7 12.0 26.5 112 112 4.2 1.1 5.3 0.120
4 Joe Johnson 2010-11 29 72 2554 16.4 .517 .481 2.8 10.9 6.9 24.0 1.0 0.2 10.3 26.3 105 110 2.5 1.8 4.2 0.080
5 Kevin Martin 2010-11 27 80 2603 21.4 .601 .506 1.2 10.0 5.6 13.0 1.6 0.4 10.5 29.6 117 111 8.0 1.5 9.5 0.175

Now tell me based on that anyone who adequately knows how to understand statistics how can you possibly say than JJ is better statistically that Martin? I mean to say that is absolutely ludicrous.

As far as the respective players simple rating goes


Rk Player Name S/Rtg

1. Kevin Martin 7.1
2. Ray Allen 6.7
3. Eric Gordon 6.0
4. Joe Johnson 5.9
5. Monta Ellis 0.4

Johnson was by far the worst player in the clutch among all the players being considered. I mean Martin's team flat out played at it's best when he was on the floor. The same cannot be said about JJ.

Need evidence of this well.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10BOS7.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1011/10LAC6.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1011/10GSW4.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1011/10ATL6.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1011/10HOU7.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

So to those who chose JJ based on stats I would really love for you to explain to us your reasoning behind it.

Delfiffer
06-27-2011, 01:06 AM
Food for thought on Kevin Martin:

Missed 88 games in three seasons from 07-10, this is his first healthy season.

He had the worst Drtg for those who qualified on both SAC(08-09) and HOU(10-11). He's often regarded as the worst defender in the NBA, and deservingly so. He can't stay in front of 2s to save his life, and he's way too small to guard 3s (To put in perspective, every starting West Playoff SF was 30+ lbs bigger than him besides one. [15 lbs. bigger])

So he's extremely skinny, horrific defender (statistically worst defender on two different teams), has had serious injury problems in the past, he's a poor rebounder, and not a good passer.

People need to quit looking at PPG... Good lord...

His defense may be below average but so is the other shooting guards on the list (Ellis, Johnson, Allen). Martin's defense is argurably worse than the others but it's by a close margin. Unlike his offense, he was far an efficient scorer than Johnson, Allen and Ellis in 2011. People sayin Ellis bein better than Martin in 2011 need to check the stats. He averaged only .6 less ppg than Ellis depite playing 7.8 less mpg and taking 4.3 less shots per game. He also got to the line alot and made a high number of free throws (he was no.1 in made free throws). And you mention DRtg but you missing that Martin had a better DRtg than Ellis in 2011. The only thing considerably that Ellis has over Martin is apg.
Besides, out of all the rest of the sg's on the list, he's the only one with a 20+ PER. If anything people are underrated him because they rarely get to watch him or the Rockets

Sadds The Gr8
06-27-2011, 01:11 AM
One season doesn't define you as a player. Joe Johnson was still a better rebounder, passer, defender, and leader then the competition right now last year. He had a down year offensively.

we're basing it off of this year, not career.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 01:12 AM
Food for thought on Kevin Martin:

Missed 88 games in three seasons from 07-10, this is his first healthy season.

He had the worst Drtg for those who qualified on both SAC(08-09) and HOU(10-11). He's often regarded as the worst defender in the NBA, and deservingly so. He can't stay in front of 2s to save his life, and he's way too small to guard 3s (To put in perspective, every starting West Playoff SF was 30+ lbs bigger than him besides one. [15 lbs. bigger])

So he's extremely skinny, horrific defender (statistically worst defender on two different teams), has had serious injury problems in the past, he's a poor rebounder, and not a good passer.

People need to quit looking at PPG... Good lord...

You do know that DRtg is a team based stat and holds no basis as to who is a better defensive player than whom right? Carlos Boozer had a MUCH better DRtg than Al Horford, Serge Ibaka, Tyson Chandler etc.

You do know that of all the players on this poll Kevin Martin was able to hold opposing SGs to as equal or better PER than as compared to the other right.

Trust me people aren't just looking at PPG. I surely am not. I am looking at how he gets those points per game and the impact it not only has on his team but the way other teams play them.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 01:12 AM
Have any of the Johnson people presented an argument in his favor? What's the argument?

Not a single argument.

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 01:13 AM
Joe Johnson on the current Rockets team would be avg Dwayne Wade numbers

Martin on the Hawks would be avg Jamal Crawford numbers especially with Horford and Smith on the team taking shots

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 01:15 AM
Let's put and end to this statistical debate and people quoting a few stats here and there just to make a case for one player over the other.

Basic


Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1 Ray Allen 2009-10 34 80 80 35.2 5.8 12.2 .477 1.8 5.0 .363 2.9 3.2 .913 0.6 2.6 3.2 2.6 0.8 0.3 1.6 2.3 16.3
2 Monta Ellis 2010-11 25 80 80 40.3 9.1 20.1 .451 1.7 4.7 .361 4.3 5.4 .789 0.6 3.0 3.5 5.6 2.1 0.3 3.2 2.5 24.1
3 Eric Gordon 2010-11 22 56 56 37.7 7.6 16.9 .450 1.9 5.2 .364 5.1 6.2 .825 0.8 2.1 2.9 4.4 1.3 0.3 2.7 2.1 22.3
4 Joe Johnson 2010-11 29 72 72 35.5 7.1 16.1 .443 1.2 4.2 .297 2.7 3.4 .802 0.8 3.2 4.0 4.7 0.7 0.1 2.0 1.8 18.2
5 Kevin Martin 2010-11 27 80 80 32.5 6.9 15.8 .436 2.2 5.7 .383 7.4 8.4 .888 0.4 2.9 3.2 2.5 1.0 0.2 2.3 1.9 23.5

Advanced


Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Ray Allen 2009-10 34 80 2819 15.2 .601 .551 2.0 8.8 5.5 12.3 1.2 0.7 10.6 20.2 115 108 5.1 2.9 7.9 0.135
2 Monta Ellis 2010-11 25 80 3227 18.6 .536 .493 1.5 8.5 4.9 23.4 2.6 0.5 12.3 28.1 107 112 4.3 1.7 6.0 0.089
3 Eric Gordon 2010-11 22 56 2112 18.5 .566 .506 2.5 6.6 4.5 20.7 1.7 0.7 12.0 26.5 112 112 4.2 1.1 5.3 0.120
4 Joe Johnson 2010-11 29 72 2554 16.4 .517 .481 2.8 10.9 6.9 24.0 1.0 0.2 10.3 26.3 105 110 2.5 1.8 4.2 0.080
5 Kevin Martin 2010-11 27 80 2603 21.4 .601 .506 1.2 10.0 5.6 13.0 1.6 0.4 10.5 29.6 117 111 8.0 1.5 9.5 0.175

Now tell me based on that anyone who adequately knows how to understand statistics how can you possibly say than JJ is better statistically that Martin? I mean to say that is absolutely ludicrous.

As far as the respective players simple rating goes


Rk Player Name S/Rtg

1. Kevin Martin 7.1
2. Ray Allen 6.7
3. Eric Gordon 6.0
4. Joe Johnson 5.9
5. Monta Ellis 0.4

Johnson was by far the worst player in the clutch among all the players being considered. I mean Martin's team flat out played at it's best when he was on the floor. The same cannot be said about JJ.

Need evidence of this well.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10BOS7.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1011/10LAC6.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1011/10GSW4.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1011/10ATL6.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1011/10HOU7.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

So to those who chose JJ based on stats I would really love for you to explain to us your reasoning behind it.

How about some defensive statistics, advanced rebounding numbers, and assist numbers in favor of KMart?

There isn't any.

He might be a fairly efficient scorer, but he's not good at anything else in all honesty.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 01:15 AM
Joe Johnson on the current Rockets team would be avg Dwayne Wade numbers

Martin on the Hawks would be avg Jamal Crawford numbers especially with Horford and Smith on the team taking shots

Are you a psychic?

This statement has NO factual evidence or no semblance of a common sensed based reasoning. If you ask me this is plain and simple ignorant.

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 01:17 AM
You do know that DRtg is a team based stat and holds no basis as to who is a better defensive player than whom right? Carlos Boozer had a MUCH better DRtg than Al Horford, Serge Ibaka, Tyson Chandler etc.

You do know that of all the players on this poll Kevin Martin was able to hold opposing SGs to as equal or better PER than as compared to the other right.

Trust me people aren't just looking at PPG. I surely am not. I am looking at how he gets those points per game and the impact it not only has on his team but the way other teams play them.

Oh ofcourse. DRtg can't really be used externally, but internally it's golden (within one team).

On two different teams, he has the worst DRtg on both teams.

DRtg is a formula based on which defenses are the most effective, and in two different scenarios (SAC and HOU), when he was on the floor, it resulted in the worst ratings on both teams. He's awful.

mttwlsn16
06-27-2011, 01:19 AM
wow, no love for EJ :facepalm:

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 01:21 AM
How about some defensive statistics, advanced rebounding numbers, and assist numbers in favor of KMart?

There isn't any.

He might be a fairly efficient scorer, but he's not good at anything else in all honesty.

Did you not pay attention to the defensive statistics in the links that I posted? Did you not pay attention to the comparative analysis in which I gave or don't you understand them? Martin had the 2nd highest rebounding % of all the SGs listed.

I already explained the reason as to why Martin's style of play and his offensive impact helps his teammates in ways that you wouldn't understand unless you have an objective and unbiased eye for the game and are able to analyze what he brings to the court game in game out.

I can't wait for the PF topic because even though I think Dirk is the best PF in the game based on your reasoning (Points, Defense, Rebounds, Assists) he will not stack up to the likes of Pau Gasol. I hope you hold true then and choose Pau based on your reasoning on judging this player.

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 01:22 AM
Some people are gettin upset over Kevin Martin lol

People voted Johnson, Ellis, and Ray Allen over him!!

Its not just JJ

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 01:23 AM
wow, no love for EJ :facepalm:

If he had Blake Griffin on his team, and his team was the 3rd worst team in the West, he's not going to get as much credit as he deserves, not that he should even be mentioned at #4.

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 01:27 AM
Did you not pay attention to the defensive statistics in the links that I posted? Did you not pay attention to the comparative analysis in which I gave or don't you understand them? Martin had the 2nd highest rebounding % of all the SGs listed.

I already explained the reason as to why Martin's style of play and his offensive impact helps his teammates in ways that you wouldn't understand unless you have an objective and unbiased eye for the game and are able to analyze what he brings to the court game in game out.

I can't wait for the PF topic because even though I think Dirk is the best PF in the game based on your reasoning (Points, Defense, Rebounds, Assists) he will not stack up to the likes of Pau Gasol. I hope you hold true then and choose Pau based on your reasoning on judging this player.

And Ellis, Gordon, and Allen aren't good rebounders lol..

He isn't the rebounder Johnson is..

He isn't the passer Johnson is..

He isn't the defender Johnson is..

Dirk is a solid defender, solid passer, solid rebounder, and the best scorer in the league. Anyone is entitled to their opinion, but anyone who thinks anyone is a better PF than Dirk is just flat our wrong.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 01:30 AM
Oh ofcourse. DRtg can't really be used externally, but internally it's golden (within one team).

On two different teams, he has the worst DRtg on both teams.

DRtg is a formula based on which defenses are the most effective, and in two different scenarios (SAC and HOU), when he was on the floor, it resulted in the worst ratings on both teams. He's awful.

So wait wait wait.

Martin's 111 DRtg is THAT much worst than Courtney Lee's and Kyle Lowry's 110? or Shane Battier's 108? Note. These are the 3 men who were viewed as the best perimeter defensive players on the team 2 of whom are viewed as elite league wide at their position but for some reason their respective ratings only differ by 1 and 3 points? So if Martin is awful what does that make them? SMH.

As far as your Sacramento reference goes that has NOTHING to do with this (though the differential between teammates were basically identical). Also DRtg is NOT golden in a team setting. That is absolutely ridiculous. That would tell me that Carlos Boozer and Derrick Rose are better defensively than Luol Deng which couldn't be more wrong.

Trust me dude if you want to come at me statistically you are going to have to do MUCH better than that.

I agree that YES Martin is a sub par defensive player, BUT if you are going to base your argument on stats you better do much better than you currently are if you think you are going to win this debate.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 01:34 AM
And Ellis, Gordon, and Allen aren't good rebounders lol..

He isn't the rebounder Johnson is..

He isn't the passer Johnson is..

He isn't the defender Johnson is..

Dirk is a solid defender, solid passer, solid rebounder, and the best scorer in the league. Anyone is entitled to their opinion, but anyone who thinks anyone is a better PF than Dirk is just flat our wrong.

If you hold true to your opinion then you would be flat out wrong.

Dirk is NOT a better passer, defender or rebounder than Pau. Based on your opinion he is not better than Pau because all he does better is score. Just like JJ vs Martin.

You said why didn't I mention anything about rebounds, defense or passing I did. I posted them clear as day. I don't understand your gripe. When corrected now you say because JJ is better in those categories he's better. SMH.

The position is called a shooting guard for a reason. Anyone who has ever played basketball would understand the argument I am making more Martin. His offensive worth makes the game MUCH easier for his teammates. JJ overall game does NOT.

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 01:34 AM
So wait wait wait.

Martin's 111 DRtg is THAT much worst than Courtney Lee's and Kyle Lowry's 110? or Shane Battier's 108? Note. These are the 3 men who were viewed as the best perimeter defensive players on the team 2 of whom are viewed as elite league wide at their position but for some reason their respective ratings only differ by 1 and 3 points? So if Martin is awful what does that make them? SMH.

As far as your Sacramento reference goes that has NOTHING to do with this (though the differential between teammates were basically identical). Also DRtg is NOT golden in a team setting. That is absolutely ridiculous. That would tell me that Carlos Boozer and Derrick Rose are better defensively than Luol Deng which couldn't be more wrong.

Trust me dude if you want to come at me statistically you are going to have to do MUCH better than that.

I agree that YES Martin is a sub par defensive player, BUT if you are going to base your argument on stats you better do much better than you currently are if you think you are going to win this debate.

You don't understand DRtg.

Lol at you thinking 3 points "isn't a big difference". Starters on the same team aren't going to have huge differences 99% of the time.

To sum it up for you, when KMart is in the game (for both SAC and HOU), the defense was the least efficient regardless of the lineups.

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 01:37 AM
If you hold true to your opinion then you would be flat out wrong.

Dirk is NOT a better passer, defender or rebounder than Pau. Based on your opinion he is not better than Pau because all he does better is score. Just like JJ vs Martin.

You said why didn't I mention anything about rebounds, defense or passing I did. I posted them clear as day. I don't understand your gripe. When corrected now you say because JJ is better in those categories he's better. SMH.

The position is called a shooting guard for a reason. Anyone who has ever played basketball would understand the argument I am making more Martin. His offensive worth makes the game MUCH easier for his teammates. JJ overall game does NOT.

Lol.

Dirk guarded Pau, and Pau primarily guard Dirk (although L.A. tried a lot of different guys on him) Dirk dominated Pau. He scored more, and more efficiently against the Lakers. Pau scored an EXTREMELY inefficient 13.1 ppg when Dirk guarded him.

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 01:38 AM
For your sake, and per PSD rules, let's keep this on topic: 4th best SG.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 01:41 AM
You don't understand DRtg.

Lol at you thinking 3 points "isn't a big difference". Starters on the same team aren't going to have huge differences 99% of the time.

To sum it up for you, when KMart is in the game (for both SAC and HOU), the defense was the least efficient regardless of the lineups.

I don't what?

You tell me a bunch nothing and tell me I don't understand it.

Based on your moot point of it being golden in a team setting 3 points isn't that big of a difference. Tell me this then a lot of people view Kyle Lowry as the best defensive PG in the entire NBA based on your DRtg they couldn't be more wrong right? SMH.

To sum it up for me? Dude you don't understand what it means to sum something up for anyone. Take a look at the 82games #s of Martin before basing your point on DRtg.

I can't believe you dodge so many points that spotlight gaping holes in your baseless reasoning and then say I don't understand. You really are a funny person.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 01:44 AM
Lol.

Dirk guarded Pau, and Pau primarily guard Dirk (although L.A. tried a lot of different guys on him) Dirk dominated Pau. He scored more, and more efficiently against the Lakers. Pau scored an EXTREMELY inefficient 13.1 ppg when Dirk guarded him.

And what does any of that prove? A 4 game series? 4 games? As opposed to an entire season? Players have tough times guarding other players. Dwight Howard NEVER played Yao Ming well that does NOT mean Yao was the better defensive player. Again your reason is baseless. You hold no solid reasoning for anything.

Why only highlight defender? Why not highlight the total package that you so smartly brought to the table?

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 01:44 AM
I (honestly) don't understand you're argument.

Kevin Martin has been the least efficient defender on both teams he's been on. Fact.

He's a bad rebounder.

He's a bad passer.

He missed 88 games from 07-10.

Which point do you disagree with and why?

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 01:46 AM
For your sake, and per PSD rules, let's keep this on topic: 4th best SG.

My sake? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Dude you run from and dodge the vast majority of my points and say for my sake. Please.

Learn to formulate an argument and hold firm on your reasoning across the board without bias and I'd start thinking about "my sake". Till then do you very best. I dare you.

iFYouSeekAmy
06-27-2011, 01:48 AM
I watched the warriors a lot this season and they did play at a fast past. Whether you think they did or not, doesn't changed the fact that they were one of the top teams in the league in ppg and possesions. And saying Ellis was more "efficient" than Curry is plain foolish. Curry may not have been clearly better than Ellis but he has the slight edge. How I view it is, threw the first half of the season (pre-asb) Ellis was the better player, but post allstar, Curry was by far better.
Overall, Curry had a higher PER, ORtg, DRtg, WS, OWS, and DWS than Ellis

If you read carefully, I said Ellis had an efficient year. You stated that pre-asb, Ellis was the better player. There are more games in 'pre-asb' period than post asb, so doesn't that mean Ellis > Curry for the majority of the season? Also, if you say Curry was way better post asb, why did my Warriors fail miserably at winning games during that time period? Additionally, I'm not a huge fan of determining a player by stats without watching the games. Since you said you watched a lot of the Warriors, you must have seen that Ellis carried the team to winning games far more than Curry has.

It is foolish to argue Curry over Ellis for this topic... I know I replied to it, but I thought it was a must.

Back to the topic- why is JJ leading the poll? what has PSD become...

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 01:49 AM
And what does any of that prove? A 4 game series? 4 games? As opposed to an entire season? Players have tough times guarding other players. Dwight Howard NEVER played Yao Ming well that does NOT mean Yao was the better defensive player. Again your reason is baseless. You hold no solid reasoning for anything.

Why only highlight defender? Why not highlight the total package that you so smartly brought to the table?

Because it's laughable that you called Pau a better defender than Dirk, when they had Dirk on Pau the entire series and he couldn't do ****. Pau guarded Dirk primarily and they had to try to find someone else who could, because Pau, Odom, Artest, and Bynum all couldn't do it.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 01:51 AM
I (honestly) don't understand you're argument.

Kevin Martin has been the least efficient defender on both teams he's been on. Fact

And you tell me I don't understand DRtg :laugh:


He's a bad rebounder.

That isn't what he is asked to do his is a SG had he been in the chase for rebounds it may take away from his overall offensive impact.


He's a bad passer.


I don't think so from what I have seen from him over the course of his career he's rather average.


He missed 88 games from 07-10.

What does any of this have to do with who is the better player RIGHT NOW?


Which point do you disagree with and why?

The point that you continue to dodge every point that I make and try to sway the argument in the baseless reasoning which you build you defense on. I gotta say if defense were an NBA SG you'd be Kevin Martin. Smh.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 01:53 AM
Because it's laughable that you called Pau a better defender than Dirk, when they had Dirk on Pau the entire series and he couldn't do ****. Pau guarded Dirk primarily and they had to try to find someone else who could, because Pau, Odom, Artest, and Bynum all couldn't do it.

4 games? So ignore their entire career/season vs the rest of the league and feature ONE series which had 4 games. That's why you ignored everything? :clap: :clap: :clap:

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 01:59 AM
And you tell me I don't understand DRtg :laugh:


I don't know how to respond to this. You aren't arguing anything. You obviously don't understand DRtg.


That isn't what he is asked to do his is a SG had he been in the chase for rebounds it may take away from his overall offensive impact.

He isn't asked to rebound is your argument? Either I'm not understanding your arguments, or you're just being silly.


I don't think so from what I have seen from him over the course of his career he's rather average.

Basically, for KMart's career, he's looking at a 1:1 AST to TO ratio. Joe Johnson is looking at a 2:1, aka double.


What does any of this have to do with who is the better player RIGHT NOW?


Why would you not factor in injuries, if this is the first healthy season KMart has had in the last 4 years? The "RIGHT NOW" argument is ridiculous, because RIGHT NOW you have to factor in past occurrences and tendencies.


The point that you continue to dodge every point that I make and try to sway the argument in the baseless reasoning which you build you defense on. I gotta say if defense were an NBA SG you'd be Kevin Martin. Smh.

I just answered everything, I am not "dodging anything".

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 02:03 AM
4 games? So ignore their entire career/season vs the rest of the league and feature ONE series which had 4 games. That's why you ignored everything? :clap: :clap: :clap:

You act like 4 H2H games isn't anything lol.

Dirk dominated Pau on both sides of the floor. And "dominated" really gets tossed around too much, but in this instance, it's perfectly used in context.

Ignored what? We just saw four head to head games, and Dirk dominated the **** out of him, mono y mono.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 02:11 AM
I don't know how to respond to this. You aren't arguing anything. You obviously don't understand DRtg.

Think of this then JJ was tied for the 2nd worst DRtg on his team this past season, does that mean he is one of their worst defensive players?

You don't understand something you do not understand it.


He isn't asked to rebound is your argument? Either I'm not understanding your arguments, or you're just being silly.


Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, Kiki Vandeweghe, Michael Redd, Adrian Dantly what dd they all do best? Were they asked to lead their team in rebounds or points? Chasing after loose balls would hurt their chances of getting into the best possible position to score on the offensive end. Thus hurting their efficiency thus hurting their teams.


Basically, for KMart's career, he's looking at a 1:1 AST to TO ratio. Joe Johnson is looking at a 2:1, aka double.


Does that mean Martin is not a good passer? HELL NO. It means he doesn't not pass the ball a great deal thus not turning the ball over at a high rate. George Gervin has a worst career AST/TO ratio than Martin does that mean JJ is a better player than him as well?


Why would you not factor in injuries, if this is the first healthy season KMart has had in the last 4 years? The "RIGHT NOW" argument is ridiculous, because RIGHT NOW you have to factor in past occurrences and tendencies.

Because players HEAL. Your arguments are all ridiculous.


I just answered everything, I am not "dodging anything".

You dodged in EVERY post I made to you prior to this. Would you like me to quote all replies like this from here on out so as to ensure you reply to the points that you were proven wrong on?

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 02:16 AM
You act like 4 H2H games isn't anything lol.

Dirk dominated Pau on both sides of the floor. And "dominated" really gets tossed around too much, but in this instance, it's perfectly used in context.

Ignored what? We just saw four head to head games, and Dirk dominated the **** out of him, mono y mono.

Amar'e DOMINATED Tim Duncan mono y mono

Does that also mean he's better than TD defensively?

Again just proves your baseless reasoning which cannot hold true outside of your non arguments.

There are millions of examples where one player outplays another in a series that however does NOT mean that because on player is outplayed that he is inferior defensively. Anyone who thinks like that doesn't have a understanding of the game of basketball.

CHANGO
06-27-2011, 02:20 AM
For me is:
4 - Joe Johnson
5 - Monta Ellis
6 - Kevin Martin
7 - Ray Allen
8 - Jason Terry
9 - Eric Gordon
10 - Stephen Jackson

Htownballa1622
06-27-2011, 02:27 AM
Amar'e DOMINATED Tim Duncan mono y mono

Does that also mean he's better than TD defensively?

Again just proves your baseless reasoning which cannot hold true outside of your non arguments.

There are millions of examples where one player outplays another in a series that however does NOT mean that because on player is outplayed that he is inferior defensively. Anyone who thinks like that doesn't have a understanding of the game of basketball.

I've agreed with everything you've said and I applaud you for continuing to try and provide evidence even when its getting ducked everytime.

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 02:30 AM
Think of this then JJ was tied for the 2nd worst DRtg on his team this past season, does that mean he is one of their worst defensive players?

You don't understand something you do not understand it.


The bolded part is a fragment, maybe it made sense when you wrote it, but I can't understand it, because it isn't a sentence.

To comment on the DRtg part, out of the 7 players who qualified in minutes (1,000+), he was tied 2nd to last which basically puts him toward the lower end of the middle. He's not a great defender, he has good size, and can hold his own. He's pretty average, but he has moments where he plays good defense.

KMart was last in both SAC and HOU. Again, you can twist that anyway you want to. What that means is: When he was on the floor, the team was the least efficient on defense out of the main rotation guys.


Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, Kiki Vandeweghe, Michael Redd, Adrian Dantly what dd they all do best? Were they asked to lead their team in rebounds or points? Chasing after loose balls would hurt their chances of getting into the best possible position to score on the offensive end. Thus hurting their efficiency thus hurting their teams.

And those guys weren't good rebounders? What's your point?


Does that mean Martin is not a good passer? HELL NO. It means he doesn't not pass the ball a great deal thus not turning the ball over at a high rate. George Gervin has a worst career AST/TO ratio than Martin does that mean JJ is a better player than him as well?

So if AST%, ASTS, AST/TO don't do it for you, what does?

Don't argue to argue. You'll usually lose.


Because players HEAL. Your arguments are all ridiculous.

Lol.......................................

You're not serious are you? You think it was a coincidence that a skinny, lanky player was injured time after time in his career? Have you heard of the term: "Injury-Prone"


You dodged in EVERY post I made to you prior to this. Would you like me to quote all replies like this from here on out so as to ensure you reply to the points that you were proven wrong on?

I responded to every post you made last time, as this time. My deepest apologies are sent to you if I might have missed something last time. I am doing as thorough as a job as I can now that you have mentioned it.

I feel like I have to keep repeating what I say, because you're stuck in a corner and cannot make a valid argument so you're making ludicrous responses in attempt to invalidate anything that I have said. I've tried to be as objective in my responses posting statistics to justify my reasoning's along with factual occurrences.

YoungOne
06-27-2011, 02:32 AM
I think most people here just rating JJ on his stats and havent seen one hawks game this season..

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 02:34 AM
Amar'e DOMINATED Tim Duncan mono y mono

Does that also mean he's better than TD defensively?

Again just proves your baseless reasoning which cannot hold true outside of your non arguments.

There are millions of examples where one player outplays another in a series that however does NOT mean that because on player is outplayed that he is inferior defensively. Anyone who thinks like that doesn't have a understanding of the game of basketball.

My point was that Dirk played better defense on Pau 500% in those 4 games. It doesn't define anything, but it accounts for something.

AnalyzeNShoot
06-27-2011, 02:34 AM
Monta is the Man

Htownballa1622
06-27-2011, 02:45 AM
Joe Johnson on the current Rockets team would be avg Dwayne Wade numbers

Martin on the Hawks would be avg Jamal Crawford numbers especially with Horford and Smith on the team taking shots

Ah,the what if game.haha

Can you provide evidence for this? :rolleyes:

Hustlenomics
06-27-2011, 02:50 AM
i think most people here just rating jj on his stats and havent seen one hawks game this season..

+ 1,000

TylerSL
06-27-2011, 02:53 AM
when he is fully healthy, I say Brandon Roy

NothingbutWill
06-27-2011, 02:53 AM
Wanted to vote for Monta until I saw Joe Johnson on the list but accidentally voted for Ray Allen.....o well.

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 03:00 AM
when he is fully healthy, I say Brandon Roy

He will never be "fully healthy".

Sadds The Gr8
06-27-2011, 03:14 AM
I think most people here just rating JJ on his stats and havent seen one hawks game this season..

i think you're basing his game off the 20 ppg seasons he's had in the past and haven't seen one hawks game this season. he sucked this year. period.

YoungOne
06-27-2011, 04:28 AM
i think you're basing his game off the 20 ppg seasons he's had in the past and haven't seen one hawks game this season. he sucked this year. period.


why should I say this, when I havent watched one myself?? :facepalm:
I watched atleast 20 hawks games this season...

TylerSL
06-27-2011, 05:04 AM
He will never be "fully healthy".

while unfortunately that may be true. I still voted for him because he is the 4th best SG in the league when he is able to be.

SugeKnight
06-27-2011, 05:09 AM
Ellis should go here, but you can argue for JJ to win too

69centers
06-27-2011, 08:21 AM
Joe Johnson is now on the decline. He had the first -20PPG season in the past 6 years with Atlanta and his 3PT% plummeted. His rebounds and steals were also the lowest in his time with Atlanta this year. No way he even cracked the top 5 in best SG's this year, let alone 4th.

BklynKnicks3
06-27-2011, 08:22 AM
people keep sleeping on crawford he is the big time player on hawks with pressure situations

69centers
06-27-2011, 08:30 AM
Stats 10/11:

Monta Ellis: 1,921 points scored; 36% from beyond the arc
Joe Johnson: 1,312 points scored; 29% from beyond the arc

That's a 600+ points difference for Ellis folks. People still going to keep picking JJ??

BklynKnicks3
06-27-2011, 08:50 AM
Monta is talnted but makes any team he plays for worse. As soon as warriors trade him they will improve

LakersIn5
06-27-2011, 09:53 AM
Gots to be monta

jtsunami
06-27-2011, 10:03 AM
Ray Ray is one of, if not the best, shooters in the league and plays solid defense. His overall game is better than that of Monta, Joe, KMart, or Gordon (with Joe being the closest).

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 10:04 AM
The bolded part is a fragment, maybe it made sense when you wrote it, but I can't understand it, because it isn't a sentence.

To comment on the DRtg part, out of the 7 players who qualified in minutes (1,000+), he was tied 2nd to last which basically puts him toward the lower end of the middle. He's not a great defender, he has good size, and can hold his own. He's pretty average, but he has moments where he plays good defense.

2nd to last is the lower end of the middle? Now I haven't heard a more foolish statement in this entire thread. You really have outdone yourself on this one. :speechless:

2nd to last is 2nd to last the is not lower middle that statement is ridiculous, especially when his rating differs on 1 point from the player beneath him.


KMart was last in both SAC and HOU. Again, you can twist that anyway you want to. What that means is: When he was on the floor, the team was the least efficient on defense out of the main rotation guys.


As I said already many a times he is NOT a good defensive player but using DRtg to justify that point is foolish. You seriously lack the basic kindergarten comprehension skills to understand that the point you are making is a baseless one. You still don't understand that based on your precedent that would mean Kyle Lowry is the second worst defensive player on the Rockets last season. Thus meaning that he was a horrible defensive player.

You lack the basic ability to rationalize a simple argument. Tell me this when Martin was on the floor his teams were worst defensively right? Ok, so how were they offensively? Did he hurt them on that end of the floor as well?

When Martin is on the floor he team is +167. Tell me again what were the Hawks when JJ was on the floor?

And those guys weren't good rebounders? What's your point?

If you don't understand my point then you don't understand basketball.Did you not read the entire statement or did you stop after the names?


So if AST%, ASTS, AST/TO don't do it for you, what does?

Watching the player. There is no statistic in the world that can tell me if a player is a great passer or not. Arvydas Sabonis is one of the greatest passers I have ever seen but based on his passing effeciency you would not be able to tell. There is a reason why Martin has a MUCH better ORtg and more OWS Johnson and it isn't because he doesn't get tons of assists.


Don't argue to argue. You'll usually lose.

Dude I won this argument long before you even started to formulate a response in that weak brain of yours. You have failed to hold true to any reason flip flopping answers and are trying to argue DRtg as your sole reasoning as to why Martin is not a good defensive player but even the 82games stats state that he is indeed as good as Johnson.



Lol.......................................

You're not serious are you? You think it was a coincidence that a skinny, lanky player was injured time after time in his career? Have you heard of the term: "Injury-Prone"

Dwyane Wade is injury prone but yet still he went #1? There are many skinny players who played Martin's position throughout the history of the game that were able to stay healthy over time. Why can't Martin do the same? But no to you he'll always be injured which means he'll never be a good player. I really need to take a look into that crystal ball of yours.


responded to every post you made last time, as this time. My deepest apologies are sent to you if I might have missed something last time. I am doing as thorough as a job as I can now that you have mentioned it.

I feel like I have to keep repeating what I say, because you're stuck in a corner and cannot make a valid argument so you're making ludicrous responses in attempt to invalidate anything that I have said. I've tried to be as objective in my responses posting statistics to justify my reasoning's along with factual occurrences.

What stats did you post?

You haven't posted a SINGLE stat in this entire argument. You must be delusional, it's clear that you are going out of your mind. Throughout this entire argument I was the only person to post any stats you tried to base your reasoning for choosing JJ because he's better than Martin in everything but scoring but when faced with the fact that Pau is also better than Dirk at everything but scoring you start bringing up garbage about a 4 game series.

You keep repeating what you are saying because you are posting rubbish. You do not understand that defensive rating cannot be used as a mechanism to evaluate a player's defensive worth whether it be in a team setting or on an individual level because of the simple fact that it is a TEAM BASED statistic. You fail to grasp that. Before you try to understand the statistics and find something better to use to justify your argument you keep bringing up garbage points that have no ground whatsoever.

Your points hold NO validity. In order to be objective your point has to hold true across the board. Based on your point DeShawn Stevenson is the Mavs worst defensive player. Based on your point Brad Miller is better defensively that Kyle Lowry, Based on your point Amar'e Stoudemire is better defensively than Landry Fields, Based on your point Gilbert Arenas and Rashard Lewis are both better defensively that Kirk Hinrich etc etc etc.

Don't you understand the ONE point you've tried and so miserably failed to argue this entire thread holds zero ground? Don't you understand that?

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 10:11 AM
My point was that Dirk played better defense on Pau 500% in those 4 games. It doesn't define anything, but it accounts for something.

You based your entire argument of one being better defensively than the other on their head to head play. You basically laughed at my point stating that, because Pau was outplayed he is inferior defensively. Now that your logic has been proved wrong you change your tune. Smh.

Hawkeye15
06-27-2011, 10:32 AM
Stats 10/11:

Monta Ellis: 1,921 points scored; 36% from beyond the arc
Joe Johnson: 1,312 points scored; 29% from beyond the arc

That's a 600+ points difference for Ellis folks. People still going to keep picking JJ??

Monta also played a ton more minutes and took a ton more shots. Not that I am saying which is better, just trying to put your number into perspective

Mile High Champ
06-27-2011, 10:35 AM
Monta did improve last season but I don't get calling him the 4th best SG in the league.

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 10:38 AM
The poll is looking good! I want JJ to get 100 votes :mad:

GoPacers33
06-27-2011, 11:02 AM
Roy all the way

Mile High Champ
06-27-2011, 11:33 AM
Roy all the way

I did not know this was 2009. :eyebrow:

LakersIn5
06-27-2011, 11:53 AM
JJ is not the 4th best SG right now. ITS MONTA! this should be based on talent. talent wise monta is better than JJ right now! put jj in gsw and monta in atlanta. hawks still make the 2nd round. warriors still miss the playoffs. but monta will have better numbers.

Sadds The Gr8
06-27-2011, 11:55 AM
why should I say this, when I havent watched one myself?? :facepalm:
I watched atleast 20 hawks games this season...

hard to believe that if you're saying Johnson was the 4th best SG this season. even in the playoffs he wasn't good. you're clearly voting him off name value.

Rivera
06-27-2011, 11:58 AM
i think this poll shows how weak the SG position has come over the years in the NBA when SG was one of the best players on the court about what? 5 to 10 years ago?

joe johnson is winning based on name value

and honestly you can make a case for monta/ray/martin/JJ i think JJ may have the weakest case because right now last season he wasnt great but since there isnt a clear cut #4 JJ is winning based on name value and contract

LakersIn5
06-27-2011, 12:11 PM
Yes jj is winning because of name value

swirl54
06-27-2011, 12:26 PM
Keith Bogans by a country mile

JordansBulls
06-27-2011, 12:37 PM
Joe Johnson

Htownballa1622
06-27-2011, 12:43 PM
Joe Johnson

Care to explain?

J-Relo
06-27-2011, 12:48 PM
Monta should have been 3rd.

Giraffes Rule
06-27-2011, 12:55 PM
Monta should have been 3rd.

No, he shouldn't. Refer to the thread for number 3 for all the reasons why Manu dominates Monta.

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 12:56 PM
Kevin Martin is one of the most efficient scorers in HISTORY.

Kevin Martin's 3 point % was almost the same as JJ's FG% in the playoffs .... Yeah Joe Johnson dominated them playoffs there bud.

He is the best free throw shooter in the league the only person who even comes close is KD. Johnson shot under 30% from 3 point land yet kept chucking. Martin shot much more accurately on 50% more attempts.

K-Mart had .8 less rebounds per game so stfu about that ****. He had ALMOST DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF STEALS JOHNSON HAD YOU RETARDS. and 2 less assists per game because we know 2 assists per game makes up for 5 points per game at a MUCH more effecient rate. K-Mart is almost if not as balanced a player as Joe Johnson while being wildly better on offense.

Anyone who says Johnson is better just watches dunks and says oohhh that's pretty.

tredigs
06-27-2011, 01:41 PM
Monta also played a ton more minutes and took a ton more shots. Not that I am saying which is better, just trying to put your number into perspective

Exactly though - he took a ton more shots and still scored with a higher efficiency than Joe Johnson. That only strengthens Monta's case over JJ, wouldn't you agree?

edit: I do like Kevin Martin and he has a strong case here, but he just can't take over the offensive load when it counts like Monta did all year. That dude flat out took over late in the 4th on many occasion and wasn't afraid to take/knock down multiple game winners. He's still not the right fit in the Warriors offense, but I think he took a significant step forward this season - and passed Martin in the process.

As for Joe Johnson. There's still not one person who has made an even remotely strong case for him. ManRam - you got some 'splanin to do ; ]

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 01:56 PM
Kevin Martin is one of the most efficient scorers in HISTORY.

While this might look like a bit of an overstatement it's actually very true Kevin Martin's career .599 TS% is good for 3rd all time among NBA SGs. Among volume scorers he's one of the most efficient in terms of TS%.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 01:57 PM
Exactly though - he took a ton more shots and still scored with a higher efficiency than Joe Johnson. That only strengthens Monta's case over JJ, wouldn't you agree?

edit: I do like Kevin Martin and he has a strong case here, but he just can't take over the offensive load when it counts like Monta did all year. That dude flat out took over late in the 4th on many occasion and wasn't afraid to take/knock down multiple game winners. He's still not the right fit in the Warriors offense, but I think he took a significant step forward this season - and passed Martin in the process.

As for Joe Johnson. There's still not one person who has made an even remotely strong case for him. ManRam - you got some 'splanin to do ; ]

My point exactly. No one has been able to come up with a logical reasoning as to why JJ deserves to go here.

Sadds The Gr8
06-27-2011, 02:00 PM
My point exactly. No one has been able to come up with a logical reasoning as to why JJ deserves to go here.

because he's averaged 20 ppg a couple times:rolleyes:...that's gonna be people's reasoning. Joe Johnson at #4 is ridiculous

Baller1
06-27-2011, 02:08 PM
Joe Johnson.

X12Celtics3
06-27-2011, 02:19 PM
Joe Johnson and MONTA ELLIS leading the vote? Disgusting...

Hustlenomics
06-27-2011, 02:22 PM
so we should ignore passing,defending, and rebounding all of a sudden?

ashyzup
06-27-2011, 02:24 PM
I'd go with Kevin Martin.

jtsunami
06-27-2011, 02:27 PM
Joe Johnson is actually a good defender. Monta and KMart on the other hand...

This isn't just about offense guys. Ray Allen and Joe Johnson have better all-around games and impact.

JJ holds his counterparts' to a .458 eFG% (below team eFG%). Monta holds his to .520 (!!!)(above team eFG%). KMart .508 (above team eFG%).

Those are pretty big margins. Offensive efficiency isn't as far apart in discrepancy.

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 02:45 PM
Joe Johnson is actually a good defender. Monta and KMart on the other hand...

This isn't just about offense guys. Ray Allen and Joe Johnson have better all-around games and impact.

JJ holds his counterparts' to a .458 eFG% (below team eFG%). Monta holds his to .520 (!!!)(above team eFG%). KMart .508 (above team eFG%).

Those are pretty big margins. Offensive efficiency isn't as far apart in discrepancy.

But JJ holds his opponents daughter hostage while his boys rape them 20% less efficiently. See I can make up stats with no sources as well.

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 02:46 PM
so we should ignore passing,defending, and rebounding all of a sudden?

Hmm didn't know .8 of a rebound and 2 assists per game were better than 500 more point's on 100 more shots????


Question what helps a team win more

500 points ( at a more efficient rate) and 33 steals and 8 blocks or 33 rebounds and 140 assists.

Well if you want a point guard to play on your wing I guess you want JJ, if you want a super effective wing player who causes more turnovers and DOESN'T chuck up shots you clearly want K-Mart.

jtsunami
06-27-2011, 02:49 PM
But JJ holds his opponents daughter hostage while his boys rape them 20% less efficiently. See I can make up stats with no sources as well.

I never realized you have to source statistics. There's this thing called the internet. If you want me to hold your hand and guide you, the best I can do is google "82games.com" and "basketball-reference."

Oh, and you might want to check out the female hygiene section of your local CVS or Walgreens.

tredigs
06-27-2011, 02:50 PM
Joe Johnson is actually a good defender. Monta and KMart on the other hand...

This isn't just about offense guys. Ray Allen and Joe Johnson have better all-around games and impact.

JJ holds his counterparts' to a .458 eFG% (below team eFG%). Monta holds his to .520 (!!!)(above team eFG%). KMart .508 (above team eFG%).

Those are pretty big margins. Offensive efficiency isn't as far apart in discrepancy.

Where are those numbers from? Wondering if it is accounting for the fact that the Hawks have a far better team defense/interior presence than the W's. Joe's still a better man defender than Monta or Martin, but from what I've seen this past year it seemed lazy at best. I think he uses the fact that he has elite interior defenders as a crutch.

edit to your above comment to the dude. Yes, sourcing harder to find stats is always a plus. No need to be a douche. Well, guess "he started it".

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 02:54 PM
I never realized you have to source statistics. There's this thing called the internet. If you want me to hold your hand and guide you, the best I can do is google "82games.com" and "basketball-reference."

Oh, and you might want to check out the female hygiene section of your local CVS or Walgreens.

Yes because it's my job to find the source of statistics you posted ??

Ohhh a period joke so funny and original I wish I thought of that :rolleyes:

jtsunami
06-27-2011, 02:54 PM
Well I wouldn't have to be a douche if he wasn't a douche. 82games.com has every player's counterpart's stats. The eFG% was taken from their main position (SG, hence the reason we are voting on this). The team eFG% was taken from basketball-reference under the "Other Stats" in 2010-2011 season summary.

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 02:56 PM
2nd to last is the lower end of the middle? Now I haven't heard a more foolish statement in this entire thread. You really have outdone yourself on this one. :speechless:

2nd to last is 2nd to last the is not lower middle that statement is ridiculous, especially when his rating differs on 1 point from the player beneath him.



As I said already many a times he is NOT a good defensive player but using DRtg to justify that point is foolish. You seriously lack the basic kindergarten comprehension skills to understand that the point you are making is a baseless one. You still don't understand that based on your precedent that would mean Kyle Lowry is the second worst defensive player on the Rockets last season. Thus meaning that he was a horrible defensive player.

You lack the basic ability to rationalize a simple argument. Tell me this when Martin was on the floor his teams were worst defensively right? Ok, so how were they offensively? Did he hurt them on that end of the floor as well?

When Martin is on the floor he team is +167. Tell me again what were the Hawks when JJ was on the floor?

And those guys weren't good rebounders? What's your point?

If you don't understand my point then you don't understand basketball.Did you not read the entire statement or did you stop after the names?



Watching the player. There is no statistic in the world that can tell me if a player is a great passer or not. Arvydas Sabonis is one of the greatest passers I have ever seen but based on his passing effeciency you would not be able to tell. There is a reason why Martin has a MUCH better ORtg and more OWS Johnson and it isn't because he doesn't get tons of assists.



Dude I won this argument long before you even started to formulate a response in that weak brain of yours. You have failed to hold true to any reason flip flopping answers and are trying to argue DRtg as your sole reasoning as to why Martin is not a good defensive player but even the 82games stats state that he is indeed as good as Johnson.



Dwyane Wade is injury prone but yet still he went #1? There are many skinny players who played Martin's position throughout the history of the game that were able to stay healthy over time. Why can't Martin do the same? But no to you he'll always be injured which means he'll never be a good player. I really need to take a look into that crystal ball of yours.



What stats did you post?

You haven't posted a SINGLE stat in this entire argument. You must be delusional, it's clear that you are going out of your mind. Throughout this entire argument I was the only person to post any stats you tried to base your reasoning for choosing JJ because he's better than Martin in everything but scoring but when faced with the fact that Pau is also better than Dirk at everything but scoring you start bringing up garbage about a 4 game series.

You keep repeating what you are saying because you are posting rubbish. You do not understand that defensive rating cannot be used as a mechanism to evaluate a player's defensive worth whether it be in a team setting or on an individual level because of the simple fact that it is a TEAM BASED statistic. You fail to grasp that. Before you try to understand the statistics and find something better to use to justify your argument you keep bringing up garbage points that have no ground whatsoever.

Your points hold NO validity. In order to be objective your point has to hold true across the board. Based on your point DeShawn Stevenson is the Mavs worst defensive player. Based on your point Brad Miller is better defensively that Kyle Lowry, Based on your point Amar'e Stoudemire is better defensively than Landry Fields, Based on your point Gilbert Arenas and Rashard Lewis are both better defensively that Kirk Hinrich etc etc etc.

Don't you understand the ONE point you've tried and so miserably failed to argue this entire thread holds zero ground? Don't you understand that?

If you're tied 2nd to last out of 7 people, you're towards the middle.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
5.
7.

Anyway, I'm moving on to your next comment, and I see you haven't changed your stance on being reasonable or using common sense.

I'll reiterate this again: DRtg is the efficiency of a defense when a player is on the court. It is not a great statistic to use externally because your teammates effect your rating. However, internally it is golden. Why? Because it can tell you EXACTLY how efficient the defense is, when certain players are on the court regardless of the lineup. That is a FACT.

SUMMARY:

1. KMart is a BAD defender: He has been the least efficient defender on TWO different teams, he's too skinny to match up against 3s (All playoff 3s are 30 lbs. heavier. besides Ariza (15lbs. bigger)), and not quick enough for 2s.

2. KMart is a BAD passer: KMart CAREER- 1:1 AST/TO ratio, 10.9 AST%, 2.3 APG. To put in perspective, Joe Johnson- 2:1 AST/TO ratio, 21.5 AST%, 4.4 APG. There's you're FACTS. He's BAD at PASSING.

3. KMart is injury prone: KMart has missed 88 games from '07-'10 (Three years). One healthy season is a good start, but it's still a major concern going forward.

jtsunami
06-27-2011, 02:57 PM
Yes because it's my job to find the source of statistics you posted ??

Ohhh a period joke so funny and original I wish I thought of that :rolleyes:

Sorry for pointing out your precious KMart is a matador on defense.

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 02:59 PM
Well I wouldn't have to be a douche if he wasn't a douche. 82games.com has every player's counterpart's stats. The eFG% was taken from their main position (SG, hence the reason we are voting on this). The team eFG% was taken from basketball-reference under the "Other Stats" in 2010-2011 season summary.

Yes because I am supposed to know what site you got it from? If you don't want to get your advanced statistics questioned you should post the source. As for the douche comment it's called a joke, man up and wipe those eyes dry.

As for the efg% Atlanta has a MUCH stronger team defense then either Houston or GSW so I would take that with a grain of salt.

Kevin Martin is a more efficient scorer, causes more turnovers, and is hardly a worse rebounder. Yes he doesn't have as much defensive ability as Joe Johnson but I would argue he maximizes what ability he does have better than JJ and more than makes up for that fault in being a MUCH MUCH better scorer.

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 03:01 PM
3. KMart is injury prone: KMart has missed 88 games from '07-'10 (Three years). One healthy season is a good start, but it's still a major concern going forward.[/SIZE]

JJ missed more games than K-Mart this season and is this not a poll of who was the best this season :raiseeyebrow:

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 03:03 PM
Sorry for pointing out your precious KMart is a matador on defense.

Oh my insinuate a player has great personal value to me causing me to be a "homer " I just can't match your cleverness now can I :(

jtsunami
06-27-2011, 03:08 PM
:laugh2: You are the one fighting to the death that KMart is the best player of those in the poll. Yes, he is an insanely efficient scorer thanks to his ability to get to the FT line and 3PT%. But that is one area of the game you provide value. KMart, like Monta, are one-trick ponies. Almost everything else they do is below league average. KMart moreso than Monta.

KMart doesn't pass well, rebound well, or defend well. Give me the player that provides positive value at 3 or 4 of the main ways to contribute.

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 03:13 PM
:laugh2: You are the one fighting to the death that KMart is the best player of those in the poll. Yes, he is an insanely efficient scorer thanks to his ability to get to the FT line and 3PT%. But that is one area of the game you provide value. KMart, like Monta, are one-trick ponies. Almost everything else they do is below league average. KMart moreso than Monta.

KMart doesn't pass well, rebound well, or defend well. Give me the player that provides positive value at 3 or 4 of the main ways to contribute.

:clap:

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 03:15 PM
:laugh2: You are the one fighting to the death that KMart is the best player of those in the poll. Yes, he is an insanely efficient scorer thanks to his ability to get to the FT line and 3PT%. But that is one area of the game you provide value. KMart, like Monta, are one-trick ponies. Almost everything else they do is below league average. KMart moreso than Monta.

KMart doesn't pass well, rebound well, or defend well. Give me the player that provides positive value at 3 or 4 of the main ways to contribute.

Dude Joe Johnson get .8 rebounds more per game than Kevin Martin, did you fail math in school? He get's 2 more assists per game than Martin when Martin has played in an offense his entire career where he was the finishing scorer so he was never asked to set up team mates. Johnson is mediocre at shooting the 3, not a great FT shooter, and does not cause many turnovers. His ability to get 2 more assists per game and supposedly better defense which is in a large part to having way better inside presences guarding the rim do not make up for him being an extremely inferior scorer.

Your arguing just as much as I am??? So that was kind of redundant.

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 03:16 PM
If JJ was on the Rockets with that current roster, he would avg. Dwayne Wade nunbers and the Rockets would be in the playoffs

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 03:17 PM
If JJ was on the Rockets with that current roster, he would avg. Dwayne Wade nunbers and the Rockets would be in the playoffs

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

tredigs
06-27-2011, 03:19 PM
:laugh2: You are the one fighting to the death that KMart is the best player of those in the poll. Yes, he is an insanely efficient scorer thanks to his ability to get to the FT line and 3PT%. But that is one area of the game you provide value. KMart, like Monta, are one-trick ponies. Almost everything else they do is below league average. KMart moreso than Monta.

KMart doesn't pass well, rebound well, or defend well. Give me the player that provides positive value at 3 or 4 of the main ways to contribute.

Put Monta or Martin on the Hawks with Horford/Smith to provide help D if the man gets a step and their defensive impact would seem to skyrocket as well though.

The discrepancy between J.J's scoring ability last season (down in ALL aspects of his game, not just scoring) and that of K. Mart and Ellis is too vast to overlook. It's not as if he's a great playmaker, either. Better than Martin (most if not all SG's are), but not nearly as potent or aggressive as Monta. He's also a poor rebounder and doesn't even have the quickness/play the passing lanes well enough at this point of his career to notch close to 1 steal a game.

Supplement that with yet another no-show in the playoffs, his incredibly weak 4th quarter "Clutch" numbers, and you have yourself a 7-8 range SG. I'd take Eric Gordon over him in a heartbeat going forward.

Bryrob58
06-27-2011, 03:19 PM
If JJ was on the Rockets with that current roster, he would avg. Dwayne Wade nunbers and the Rockets would be in the playoffs

Lololol

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 03:20 PM
JJ is almost at a 100 :clap:

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 03:20 PM
Put Monta or Martin on the Hawks with Horford/Smith to provide help D if the man gets a step and their defensive impact would seem to skyrocket as well though.

The discrepancy between J.J's scoring ability last season (down in ALL aspects of his game, not just scoring) and that of K. Mart and Ellis is too vast to overlook. It's not as if he's a great playmaker, either. Better than Martin (most if not all SG's are), but not nearly as potent or aggressive as Monta. He's also a poor rebounder and doesn't even have the quickness/play the passing lanes well enough at this point of his career to notch close to 1 steal a game.

Supplement that with yet another no-show in the playoffs, his incredibly weak 4th quarter "Clutch" numbers, and you have yourself a 7-8 range SG. I'd take Eric Gordon over him in a heartbeat going forward.

:clap:

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 03:21 PM
JJ is almost at a 100 :clap:

I would LOVE to know how you come to the Dwayne Wade type numbers conclusion...

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 03:23 PM
Wade avg 25, 4, and 6

JJ would avg that if he was on the Rockets, the dude did avg 18, 4, 4 on a horrible year :)

Plus Smith and Horford on the team

jtsunami
06-27-2011, 03:24 PM
Dude Joe Johnson get .8 rebounds more per game than Kevin Martin, did you fail math in school? He get's 2 more assists per game than Martin when Martin has played in an offense his entire career where he was the finishing scorer so he was never asked to set up team mates. Johnson is mediocre at shooting the 3, not a great FT shooter, and does not cause many turnovers. His ability to get 2 more assists per game and supposedly better defense which is in a large part to having way better inside presences guarding the rim do not make up for him being an extremely inferior scorer.

Your arguing just as much as I am??? So that was kind of redundant.

I'm arguing because you attacked me for saying KMart is flawed and a bad defender.

And let reiterate the point I made which again you failed to realize. Joe Johnson is better than league average at SG at passing/ball handling, scoring, and defending. Which in my mind, are 3 of the 4 main ways to contribute in basketball (rebounding is the last one). KMart is better than league average at scoring. That's it.

If my team needed a ton of scoring with no regard for defense or passing (like, say, the Bucks) I would love to take Kevin Martin out of this poll. But for most teams, I take the better overall player everytime which I think Joe Johnson is compared to KMart or Monta. And I didn't even vote for JJ, I voted for Ray Allen.

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 03:25 PM
Wade avg 25, 4, and 6

JJ would avg that if he was on the Rockets, the dude did avg 18, 4, 4 on a horrible year :)

So your saying if he went to a team that had room for less offensive production than the one he was already on and remove a guy that scored more point's on less shots he would do better???

jtsunami
06-27-2011, 03:27 PM
Put Monta or Martin on the Hawks with Horford/Smith to provide help D if the man gets a step and their defensive impact would seem to skyrocket as well though.

The discrepancy between J.J's scoring ability last season (down in ALL aspects of his game, not just scoring) and that of K. Mart and Ellis is too vast to overlook. It's not as if he's a great playmaker, either. Better than Martin (most if not all SG's are), but not nearly as potent or aggressive as Monta. He's also a poor rebounder and doesn't even have the quickness/play the passing lanes well enough at this point of his career to notch close to 1 steal a game.

Supplement that with yet another no-show in the playoffs, his incredibly weak 4th quarter "Clutch" numbers, and you have yourself a 7-8 range SG. I'd take Eric Gordon over him in a heartbeat going forward.

a) My argument isn't that JJ is the my choice. He isn't. But IMO he's a better choice over Monta and KMart.
b) Steals? Really? We're evaluating defensive ability by steals??? :laugh:

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 03:28 PM
Idk why Martin lovers are so butt hurt over JJ, it's not like Monta is 20 votes ahead of him also

MacFitz92
06-27-2011, 03:29 PM
JJ is not Wade lol..

jtsunami
06-27-2011, 03:30 PM
Regarding steals:

The Warriors had the second most steals in the league last year. The best defensive team, the Chicago Bulls, were 17th. Steals mean nothing. Literally nothing.

tredigs
06-27-2011, 03:31 PM
a) My argument isn't that JJ is the my choice. He isn't. But IMO he's a better choice over Monta and KMart.
b) Steals? Really? We're evaluating defensive ability by steals??? :laugh:

And my argument is that the overwhelming evidence is not in his favor. Who is your choice?

I addressed other defensive factors and acknowledge JJ is a better man defender, just that he has regressed, is helped by elite interior D, and that his quickness/effort is likely showing up in his inability to even get 1 steal a game as a SG. That is atrocious. Steals do result in a change of possession that often lead to transition buckets, also. Far from meaningless unless they are all via over-playing the lanes (didn't see that as the case with Monta this year, felt like he played most guys straight up, and got most of his steals pickpocketing interior bigs).


Regarding steals:

The Warriors had the second most steals in the league last year. The best defensive team, the Chicago Bulls, were 17th. Steals mean nothing. Literally nothing.



Without those steals, they would have been closer to 22-25th. They absolutely matter.

Swashcuff
06-27-2011, 03:32 PM
If you're tied 2nd to last out of 7 people, you're towards the middle.

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
5.
7.


Anyway, I'm moving on to your next comment, and I see you haven't changed your stance on being reasonable or using common sense.

Oh so now you say he's tied for 2nd to last which means the disparity of 1 point is what makes has his tied. ONE point has his TIED for 2nd to last.

Second to last is second to last. You seem not to be able to comprehend this. You use a baseless perspective and try to make your point valid. Its hold ZERO validity.


I'll reiterate this again: DRtg is the efficiency of a defense when a player is on the court. It is not a great statistic to use externally because your teammates effect your rating. However, internally it is golden. Why? Because it can tell you EXACTLY how efficient the defense is, when certain players are on the court regardless of the lineup. That is a FACT.

Again I reiterate no matter if you use it in a team setting or comparative across the board basis. It is useless because of the fact that it can NEVER accurately determine who is the better defensive player. NEVER as I quoted in each of the examples I gave you. It hold ZERO validity. Again I state by your basis Brad Miller is a better defensive player than Kyle Lowry and Deshawn Stephenson is the worst on the Mavs. That is your argument something which could not be MORE wrong.


SUMMARY:

Interesting to read, I didn't know there was a way to summarize BS thank you for pointing that out to us.


1. KMart is a BAD defender: He has been the least efficient defender on TWO different teams, he's too skinny to match up against 3s (All playoff 3s are 30 lbs. heavier. besides Ariza (15lbs. bigger)), and not quick enough for 2s.

Again, you use DRtg as the end all to defensive effeiceny something which has proven your lack of knowledge and understanding of stats. It evidently shows that you lack the basic comprehension skills when it comes to partaking in a statistical debate.

Kevin Martin's Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production vs SGs 12.8 PER while allowing 20.4 pts
Joe Johnson's Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production vs SGs 11.6 PER while allowing 17.1 pts

If you want to state indivual defensive value your argument should look something like that, not a dumbass point of DRtg.


2. KMart is a BAD passer: KMart CAREER- 1:1 AST/TO ratio, 10.9 AST%, 2.3 APG. To put in perspective, Joe Johnson- 2:1 AST/TO ratio, 21.5 AST%, 4.4 APG. There's you're FACTS. He's BAD at PASSING

None of this NONE of this I repeat NONE of this speaks to a player's passing ability. You cannot determine passing ability based solely on stats and anyone who understands basketball knows that. You have passing ability mixed up with passing efficiency. NONE of that tells you that he is a bad passer, as I said before GREAT passers hold worst Ast/To ratios that Kevin Martin. To determine a players passing ability you actually have to watch them play.


3. KMart is injury prone: KMart has missed 88 games from '07-'10 (Three years). One healthy season is a good start, but it's still a major concern going forward.

And what does that have to do with right now? You compare his last two season's DRtg but then talk about 4 years ago. Not this last season but 4 years prior to it. You have no ground to stand on. You have no form of consistency.

How many games Kevin Martin missed from 07-10 has nothing to do with the fact that he only missed TWO games last season. Less than Joe Johnson.

Dwyane Wade missed 70 games between 07-10 and he was overwhelmingly voted at #1. I guess we should go back to that thread and void his #1 because he missed 21% of his games in that span? Yeah we should :rolleyes:

LTBaByyy
06-27-2011, 03:33 PM
No one said JJ was Wade????

Kobe and Wade is on another level than the rest of the SGs

I said JJ would put up "Wade type numbers" if he was on the Rockets and they would be in the playoffs (lower seeds)

I wish I had the opportunity to see Martin's stats if he was on a playoff team with Smith and Horford also gettin alot of shots off

Martin is just a scorer, end of story. Worst #1 option in the league IMO

jtsunami
06-27-2011, 03:37 PM
And my argument is that the overwhelming evidence is not in his favor. Who is your choice?

I addressed other defensive factors and acknowledge JJ is a better man defender, just that he has regressed, is helped by elite interior D, and that his quickness/effort is likely showing up in his inability to even get 1 steal a game as a SG. That is atrocious. Steals do result in a change of possession that often lead to transition buckets, also. Far from meaningless unless they are all via over-playing the lanes (didn't see that as the case with Monta this year, felt like he played most guys straight up, and got most of his steals pickpocketing interior bigs).

Without those steals, they would have been closer to 22-25th. They absolutely matter.

They mean nothing in terms of evaluating defensive ability. Of course a steal means a change of possession. But steals have no correlation to defense when looked at on a large scale basis.

Terrible teams can get a ton of steals. And great teams can get very few steals. The Miami Heat were 27th in steals. This just shows you that steals don't equate to good defense. Very, very poor correlation.

EDIT: I voted for Ray Allen.

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 03:39 PM
[QUOTE]No one said JJ was Wade????

Kobe and Wade is on another level than the rest of the SGs

I said JJ would put up "Wade type numbers" if he was on the Rockets and they would be in the playoffs (lower seeds)


So you did say that?


I wish I had the opportunity to see Martin's stats if he was on a playoff team with Smith and Horford also gettin alot of shots off

The Rocket's average 105 ppg while the Hawks average 95 ...... Martin averages 5 more points per game then Johnson so I would like to see that as well.



Martin is just a scorer, end of story. Worst #1 option in the league IMO
Good thing you're opinion doesn't count for much.

Mile High Champ
06-27-2011, 03:40 PM
#5 is up. This is all wrapped up.

alexander_37
06-27-2011, 03:43 PM
They mean nothing in terms of evaluating defensive ability. Of course a steal means a change of possession. But steals have no correlation to defense when looked at on a large scale basis.

Terrible teams can get a ton of steals. And great teams can get very few steals. The Miami Heat were 27th in steals. This just shows you that steals don't equate to good defense. Very, very poor correlation.

EDIT: I voted for Ray Allen.

Steals can often lead to instant transition offense and on a personal level often shows how aggressive a player is on defense. Yes on a team level they don't mean a whole lot. Note how on the NBA's steals leader list MANY of the top guys are known as very good defenders. I am not saying all but a good 8-9 of the top 15 are very good defenders.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-27-2011, 03:47 PM
Johnson and ellis are so inefficient.

Martin by far gets my vote.