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Mile High Champ
06-25-2011, 02:50 PM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 3 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best

2011 SG Rankings

1) Dwyane Wade
2) Kobe Bryant
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)



2010 Off-Season SG Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwyane Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Manu Ginobili
6) Monta Ellis
7) Ray Allen
8) Stephen Jackson
9) O.J. Mayo
10) Jason Richardson

2009 Off-Season SG Rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Brandon Roy
4) Joe Johnson
5) Vince Carter
6) Manu Ginobili
7) Ray Allen
8) Kevin Martin
9) Ben Gordon
10) Richard Hamilton

2008 Off-Season SG rankings:

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Tracy McGrady
4) Allen Iverson
5) Manu Ginobili
5) Vince Carter
7) Joe Johnson
8) Ray Allen
9) Brandon Roy
10) Kevin Martin

Chacarron
06-25-2011, 02:52 PM
Ginobili!!!

Mile High Champ
06-25-2011, 02:54 PM
Thread should say SG. Can a MOD change it. Made a mistake.

tredigs
06-25-2011, 02:57 PM
Has to be Ginobe's here.

Hustlenomics
06-25-2011, 02:59 PM
Monta Ellis/ Ray Allen

Avenged
06-25-2011, 02:59 PM
Manuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!

Avenged
06-25-2011, 03:02 PM
I got Manu followed by Kevin Martin.

Htownballa1622
06-25-2011, 03:05 PM
I voted for kevin martin but forgot about manu down on the poll.my real choice is manu.

Htownballa1622
06-25-2011, 03:05 PM
i got manu followed by kevin martin.

+1

allSUAVE
06-25-2011, 03:10 PM
Ellis.

Talent wise he's the 3rd best on the list.

DoJoTheSlasher
06-25-2011, 03:14 PM
Manu freakin' Ginobili

Hawkeye15
06-25-2011, 03:15 PM
Manu

NYKnicksAllDay
06-25-2011, 03:16 PM
Manu

Gators123
06-25-2011, 03:16 PM
Manu

LTBaByyy
06-25-2011, 03:20 PM
Manu then Joe Johnson and Ellis after

People will always look at JJ contract instead of seeing he still got it

Avenged
06-25-2011, 03:24 PM
Manu then Joe Johnson and Ellis after

People will always look at JJ contract instead of seeing he still got it

Contract aside, other SG's "got it" more than JJ. He will most likely get the next one off of reputation alone.

Ezio
06-25-2011, 03:31 PM
If Roy was healthy :( Manu here.

LTBaByyy
06-25-2011, 03:31 PM
Dang the ROY a year ago Tyreke Evans gets no love in the PG AND SG top 10 by not even being on the poll

Hopefully he is healthy this season and plays like his rookie year

Hustlenomics
06-25-2011, 03:39 PM
oh damn I forgot about joe Johnson, he's better than the rest of these players on the poll

Swashcuff
06-25-2011, 03:44 PM
This is a little tough for me because personally I really think Eric Gordan has what it takes to be better than anyone on this list but its not based on potential but who's better right now so based on that I'll go Manu.

CHANGO
06-25-2011, 04:01 PM
Manu
JJ - He plays D.
Monta

Giraffes Rule
06-25-2011, 04:02 PM
I got Manu followed by Kevin Martin.

Same here.

Jewelz0376
06-25-2011, 04:13 PM
<barkley voice> GINOBLII!!!!! <barkley voice>

LTBaByyy
06-25-2011, 04:15 PM
manu
jj - he plays d.
Monta

+1

douglas
06-25-2011, 04:20 PM
Its crazy how just last year Brandon Roy was considered the third best shooting guard and now he's a role player at best

Swashcuff
06-25-2011, 04:27 PM
Its crazy how just last year Brandon Roy was considered the third best shooting guard and now he's a role player at best

Potential career ending injuries could do that to you. It's sad but real.

SteBO
06-25-2011, 04:38 PM
I like Ginobli for #3 SG. He's a great competitor and when healthy, he can really score the ball with great efficiency. I liked Joe Johnson for this spot too, but it's hard to overlook the intangibles Ginobli brings to the table as well.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-25-2011, 04:40 PM
Manu than Ellis than Ray.

Baller1
06-25-2011, 04:42 PM
Manu.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-25-2011, 04:49 PM
oh damn I forgot about joe Johnson, he's better than the rest of these players on the poll

No. Ginobili is better. Good to see him getting the recognition. Easily one of the most underrated players ever.

I'd probably put him at #2 right now :shrug:

xxplayerxx23
06-25-2011, 04:56 PM
ellis, then manu then jj followed by martin

xxplayerxx23
06-25-2011, 04:57 PM
where is fields on the list

Swashcuff
06-25-2011, 04:58 PM
where is fields on the list

Seriously?

LakersMaster24
06-25-2011, 04:58 PM
Monta Ellis/ Ray Allen

Oh Boston fans...

LTBaByyy
06-25-2011, 05:00 PM
Landry Fields stock, touches, and stats dropped major after Melo went to the Knicks

tcav701
06-25-2011, 05:00 PM
Manu and Joe Johnson are the most complete players on this list. If it werent for injuries, they would be a lock for 3 and 4.

Avenged
06-25-2011, 05:01 PM
Ugh. Sucks it's going to be Joe Johnson or Ellis for #4.. :sigh:

xxplayerxx23
06-25-2011, 05:03 PM
Seriously?

I was kidding ll

Jewelz0376
06-25-2011, 05:03 PM
No. Ginobili is better. Good to see him getting the recognition. Easily one of the most underrated players ever.

I'd probably put him at #2 right now :shrug:

:mad:

tcav701
06-25-2011, 05:03 PM
Not sure why Matthews made it before Tony Allen, Vince Carter and prolly a few others.

Swashcuff
06-25-2011, 05:31 PM
Not sure why Matthews made it before Tony Allen, Vince Carter and prolly a few others.

Because he's better than Carter.

tcav701
06-25-2011, 05:36 PM
Because he's better than Carter.

I agree but its kinda wierd to see one person from a certian tier to be up there while the others are not.

Ebbs
06-25-2011, 05:39 PM
Manu and than it's really tough between JJ and Martin.

Ebbs
06-25-2011, 05:40 PM
Ugh. Sucks it's going to be Joe Johnson or Ellis for #4.. :sigh:

Should be JJ or Martin. But since JJ had a pretty rough year I will push for Martin.

DR_1
06-25-2011, 05:46 PM
Manu

Kings Faithful
06-25-2011, 05:58 PM
Someone correct me if im wrong...but I didn't see tyreke listed in the best pg's poll....even though he was in the 2010 poll. I figured he would be moved to the best sg's... which isn't the case...so is there a screwup or does someone not consider him good enough to be in a poll with the likes of demar derozen and wes mathews?

Lakerfrk
06-25-2011, 06:04 PM
I went with JJ... but I gotta say.... I almost picked Eric Gordon.... I got him ahead of both KMart and Monta

LTBaByyy
06-25-2011, 06:06 PM
I cant wait for Centers (behind D12) and Power Fowards (behind Dirk)

Avenged
06-25-2011, 06:23 PM
Should be JJ or Martin. But since JJ had a pretty rough year I will push for Martin.

JJ and Ellis will get 4-5 judging by the amount of votes they have for #3.

After this one I would go with Martin, Ellis, Gordon or Martin, Gordon, Ellis.

Raidaz4Life
06-25-2011, 06:27 PM
Monta!!!

Bruno
06-25-2011, 06:35 PM
Manu, with Martin and Ellis rounding out the top 5.

I miss the days when Roy was #3. Such a shame

Joe Johnson, once again, and as always- being vastly over-rated.

alencp3
06-25-2011, 06:43 PM
Everybody hates Eric

Avenged
06-25-2011, 06:43 PM
Manu, with Martin and Ellis rounding out the top 5.

I miss the days when Roy was #3. Such a shame

Joe Johnson, once again, and as always- being vastly over-rated.

Haha I have JJ at #7 behind Martin, Ellis, and Gordon. I'm trying to decide if I should have Gordon ahead of Ellis due to Ellis's lack of D, but I'm not quite convinced yet.

Swashcuff
06-25-2011, 06:46 PM
JJ and Ellis will get 4-5 judging by the amount of votes they have for #3.

After this one I would go with Martin, Ellis, Gordon or Martin, Gordon, Ellis.

This

Bruno
06-25-2011, 06:47 PM
Everybody hates Eric

I don't, I'll probably vote for him at 7th. He'll crack my top 5 during the year if healthy and great like he has been when healthy.

Bruno
06-25-2011, 06:51 PM
Haha I have JJ at #7 behind Martin, Ellis, and Gordon. I'm trying to decide if I should have Gordon ahead of Ellis due to Ellis's lack of D, but I'm not quite convinced yet.

I think even 7th is generous. Go look at his playoff stats; so mediocre, AGAIN. After the post-season he just had, Jason Terry deserves to be ahead of JJ, easily. I might vote Terry as high as 5th, but will probably go with Ellis or Martin. Then I'd go Terry/Gordon at 6/7. I won't vote for JJ until 8th or 9th.

$KnicksAndKobe$
06-25-2011, 06:54 PM
Why not Allen?

Yes he's gotten older but he had his most efficient year yet, and he's by FAR the scariest player left.

Avenged
06-25-2011, 06:55 PM
I think even 7th is generous. Go look at his playoff stats; so mediocre, AGAIN. After the post-season he just had, Jason Terry deserves to be ahead of JJ, easily. I might vote Terry as high as 5th, but will probably go with Ellis or Martin. Then I'd go Terry/Gordon at 6/7. I won't vote for JJ until 8th or 9th.

I love these polls, especially at this position so many talent in which gets close after the top 3. Terry barely makes my top 10 if we are talking about production across the board. Although he did have a great postseason so that just may bump him up on a lot of peoples rankings.

MagicBucsSox
06-25-2011, 06:59 PM
I got tyreke #3, better all around player than anyone on that poll. Yet he's not on it lol

Bruno
06-25-2011, 07:04 PM
Why not Allen?

Yes he's gotten older but he had his most efficient year yet, and he's by FAR the scariest player left.

Forgot about Ray! :facepalm:

This is how I see it:
Wade
Kobe
Ginobli
Ray Allen
Kevin Martin
Monta Ellis
Jason Terry
Eric Gordon




I love these polls, especially at this position so many talent in which gets close after the top 3. Terry barely makes my top 10 if we are talking about production across the board. Although he did have a great postseason so that just may bump him up on a lot of peoples rankings.

I'd split with you there. His production has been fantastic. He is the only player left on the board who had a PER of 20.0+ and a WS/48 of .175 or higher for the playoffs. If were arguing statistical production, his stats are there (and higher than anyone elses who played in the playoffs) If were talking intangibles and clutch play... well, we know how that went too.

Joe Johnson was once again mediocre at best. He posted a playoff PER of 15.0 (league average). His TS% was less than efficient and his WS/48 was laughable.

Avenged
06-25-2011, 07:14 PM
Forgot about Ray! :facepalm:

This is how I see it:
Wade
Kobe
Ginobli
Ray Allen
Kevin Martin
Monta Ellis
Jason Terry
Eric Gordon





I'd split with you there. His production has been fantastic. He is the only player left on the board who had a PER of 20.0+ and a WS/48 of .175 or higher for the playoffs. If were arguing statistical production, his stats are there (and higher than anyone elses who played in the playoffs) If were talking intangibles and clutch play... well, we know how that went too.

Joe Johnson was once again mediocre at best. He posted a playoff PER of 15.0 (league average). His TS% was less than efficient and his WS/48 was laughable.

Yes, which is why I said he should be bumped considering his post season play..

But as far as the regular season goes, his PER was 15.9 (slightly or on par the leagues avg) with Win Shares of 5.3 (lower than Martin, Ellis, and even J-Rich)

I mean, some of these players who were producing more than Terry in the regular season weren't fortunate enough to make the postseason which isn't really a fair way to compare them when they didn't get that chance like Terry did.

Giraffes Rule
06-25-2011, 07:20 PM
I got tyreke #3, better all around player than anyone on that poll. Yet he's not on it lol

Based off of what, potential? He didn't have a good year last year. He'll probably bounce back next year, but that doesn't change what he is now.

3mikee_
06-25-2011, 07:38 PM
Manu hands down..then prob JJ then Ellis. Ellis takes too many bad shots to be considered the 3rd best SG.

MagicBucsSox
06-25-2011, 08:09 PM
Based off of what, potential? He didn't have a good year last year. He'll probably bounce back next year, but that doesn't change what he is now.

19 5 5, thru an injury yr, rookie yr 20 5 5. With a bum team and he plays D so what U talking

Hustlenomics
06-25-2011, 08:22 PM
No. Ginobili is better. Good to see him getting the recognition. Easily one of the most underrated players ever.

I'd probably put him at #2 right now :shrug:

i'd be disrespecting Joe Johnson if I was to put a flopper like Manu in front of him

Bruno
06-25-2011, 08:51 PM
Yes, which is why I said he should be bumped considering his post season play..

But as far as the regular season goes, his PER was 15.9 (slightly or on par the leagues avg) with Win Shares of 5.3 (lower than Martin, Ellis, and even J-Rich)

I mean, some of these players who were producing more than Terry in the regular season weren't fortunate enough to make the postseason which isn't really a fair way to compare them when they didn't get that chance like Terry did.

That argument only works in defense of Monta and Martin.

J-Rich and Johnson were pretty terrible in the playoffs. Go look at their numbers. J-Rich posted a PER under 10.0, and a TS% of .456. Johnson had a sub-par regular season, and post season. J-Richs production taking a huge hit in the playoffs is a knock against him; and his regular season PER was lower than Terrys.

Terry posted great figures in the playoffs, and had an alright regular season. That's why he should get the nod over J-Rich, Johnson, or anybody else left not named Manu, Monta or Martin.

I don't see the point in over-rating regular season numbers of guys who sucked in the post-season.

3mikee_
06-25-2011, 09:08 PM
19 5 5, thru an injury yr, rookie yr 20 5 5. With a bum team and he plays D so what U talking

Said it right there...getting those numbers on a bum team... Manu getting those numbers playing with 2 all stars. Who's on the Kings to take ANYTHING away from reke? lol..Cousins? haha

On a side note, I like Manu but did somebody honestly say he's number 2? That's a joke... who is he going to go ahead of?

Giraffes Rule
06-25-2011, 09:19 PM
19 5 5, thru an injury yr, rookie yr 20 5 5. With a bum team and he plays D so what U talking

First of all, you didn't even get his averages right. You could at least get that right before you ask someone else what they're talking about. So let's break down why Tyreke doesn't belong in the 3 spot. His TS% and eFG& are both lower than Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili, Kevin Martin, or even Joe Johnson (who was considered to have an off year). His win shares is a paltry 1.6, which is far below that of the players mentioned (the second lowest is Joe Johnson's 4.2). His PER is the lowest of all players, and as far as that defense you mentioned: His defensive win shares and defensive rating are both just barely above Kevin Martin's, who is notorious for playing bad defense. He owns the highest turnover percentage of any of these players, and shoots 77% from the free throw line. There's no excuse for an NBA guard who can't shoot at least 80%. That's what I'm talking about.


i'd be disrespecting Joe Johnson if I was to put a flopper like Manu in front of him

:facepalm:

SportsFanatic10
06-25-2011, 09:37 PM
manu

alexander_37
06-25-2011, 10:16 PM
How can you seriously vote Ray Allen over K-Mart?

K-Mart
Manu
Ellis
JJ
Allen

LTBaByyy
06-25-2011, 10:26 PM
Kevin Martin plays no defense lol and does not make his teammates better!!!

Every team he played never goes to the playofss, he ruined the Rockets franchise IMO

I dont see them going to the Playoffs with him as the first option over teams like:

Dallas
Lakers
Spurs
OKC
Grizzlies
Nuggets
Blazers
Warriors
Hornets (With CP3)

LTBaByyy
06-25-2011, 10:31 PM
Wade
Kobe
Manu
JJ
Ellis
Gordon
Ray Allen
Martin
Terry
Tony Allen/Richardson/Harden/Mathews

MacFitz92
06-25-2011, 10:31 PM
1. JJ
2. Manu

LTBaByyy
06-25-2011, 10:34 PM
Lets get to the PF's and C's

I cant wait to argue

$KnicksAndKobe$
06-25-2011, 10:43 PM
I still don't understand how Manu is destroying Ray Allen in the votes

Yanks All Day
06-25-2011, 10:44 PM
Ok I know he was screwed out of the 1st AND 2nd spots, so let's do the right thing here and put JJ Redick at 3.

Manu. He's probably the most underrated player in the league. When he's healthy, he's right up there.

haggis
06-25-2011, 11:09 PM
manu

blastmasta26
06-25-2011, 11:11 PM
1. Dwyane Wade
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Manu Ginobili
4. Kevin Martin
5. Ray Allen
6. Monta Ellis
7. Eric Gordon
8. Joe Johnson
9. James Harden
10. Jason Terry

Redbull
06-25-2011, 11:19 PM
Manu.

theheatles
06-26-2011, 12:13 AM
1. Dwyane Wade
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Manu Ginobili
4. Ray Allen
5. Joe Johnson
6. Monta Ellis
7. Kevin Martin
8. James Harden
9. Eric Gordon
10. Jason Terry

LakersIn5
06-26-2011, 12:29 AM
i has to be monta but since he is losing then monta should definitely be 4th

knightstemplar
06-26-2011, 12:39 AM
joe johnson, then ellis

Mile High Champ
06-26-2011, 12:45 AM
People always forget to read the first post in the thread...

ManRam
06-26-2011, 12:48 AM
Manu!!!!

DoubleDragon
06-26-2011, 01:00 AM
D***** it! I picked Joe Johnson when I meant to pick Manu Ginobli.
Oh well. There you have it. But it's close enough anyways. Sorry Spurs fans.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 01:17 AM
Kevin Martin avg 2 ast in 32 minutes!!! haha (Avg 2 turn overs a game too)

And he plays no defense, Yall are overrating him if you have him in your top 5 SG

All the dude cares about is scoring and thats it, doesnt make his teammates better or play defense

Even Terry avg 4 ast, Ginobili 5, Gordon 4, Johnson 4, Ellis 5,


.

Hustlenomics
06-26-2011, 01:32 AM
Kevin Martin avg 2 ast in 32 minutes!!! haha (Avg 2 turn overs a game too)

And he plays no defense, Yall are overrating him if you have him in your top 5 SG

All the dude cares about is scoring and thats it, doesnt make his teammates better or play defense

Even Terry avg 4 ast, Ginobili 5, Gordon 4, Johnson 4, Ellis 5,


.

thank you, no way that guy is a top 5 shooting guard

Htownballa1622
06-26-2011, 01:40 AM
Kevin Martin avg 2 ast in 32 minutes!!! haha (Avg 2 turn overs a game too)

And he plays no defense, Yall are overrating him if you have him in your top 5 SG

All the dude cares about is scoring and thats it, doesnt make his teammates better or play defense

Even Terry avg 4 ast, Ginobili 5, Gordon 4, Johnson 4, Ellis 5,


.

The rockets offense this past year was set up for martin to finish scoring. (princeton style offense) his role on the rockets is to score.he also is one of the most efficient guards.

Thats like me saying. Kidd doesnt deserve to be viewed top ten when he averages 7ppg on what... Some horrible shooting percentage. His job obviously wasn't to score on the mavs team.(although kidd imo wasnt top ten this year)

Martin is #4. If he ever made his all around game better as others decline. He argueably could be top 3

GREATNESS ONE
06-26-2011, 01:42 AM
Seriously. How is Tyreke Evans not even on this list? I don't have him at 3 but he's DEFINITELY in the top 10.

Swashcuff
06-26-2011, 02:22 AM
Kevin Martin avg 2 ast in 32 minutes!!! haha (Avg 2 turn overs a game too)

And he plays no defense, Yall are overrating him if you have him in your top 5 SG

All the dude cares about is scoring and thats it, doesnt make his teammates better or play defense

Even Terry avg 4 ast, Ginobili 5, Gordon 4, Johnson 4, Ellis 5,


.

26.2 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.0 tpg. That is the career line of a player who many argue as one of the greatest scorers in NBA history. Clearly he is a wing player. He turned the ball more than his ast/to ratio was worst than that of Martin's.

Kevin Martin's style of play doesn't lend to much assists also added to the fact that he is not that good of a passer. Though very one dimensional Martin is the most efficient volume scoring SG in the entire league.

Martin's style of play absolutely makes his teammates better, you don't think knocking down shot after shot and having one of the 4th (Ray Allen, Jason Terry and Jason Richardson's are better) highest %ast of everyone on that list while averaging 6 more points that Ray Allen (the man who averages the most among those who have a high %ast) helps his teammates?

I mean there are tones of people who don't think Rondo is that great of a PG because he has a great shooter in Ray Allen to pass the ball to. Doesn't that mean that Allen in turn makes Rondo better? Don't you think his high offensive IQ helps his teammates?

You guys seriously underestimate the value of intangible worth. I would think a fan of Dirk would be able to comprehend this but apparently you haven't watched Martin enough this past season to make a proper judgement.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 02:36 AM
26.2 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.0 tpg. That is the career line of a player who many argue as one of the greatest scorers in NBA history. Clearly he is a wing player. He turned the ball more than his ***/To ratio was worst than that of Martin's.

Kevin Martin's style of play doesn't lend to much assists also added to the fact that he is not that good of a passer. Though very one dimensional martin is the most efficient volume scoring SG in the entire league at that one dimension.

Martin's style of play absolutely makes his teammates better, you don't think knocking down shot after shot and having one of the highest %ast of anyone who's currently on the list helps his teammates? Don't you think his high offensive IQ helps his teammates. You guys seriously underestimate the value of intangible worth. I would think a fan of Dirk would be able to comprehend this but apparently you haven't watched Martin enough this past season to make a proper judgement.


I watch all the Rockets game, I go to college thats in between Dallas and Houston

So I watch the Mavs and Rockets all the time on Fox Sports Net Southwest

And you will not make the playoffs with Kevin Martin as your 1st option, obviously

Dont say its his teams or with out Yao, Freaking Artest got that team to the playoffs without Yao lol

He has 1) NO defense whatsoever 2)doesnt pass the ball/make his teammates better

3) turns it over more than he gets assist, and its only 2 ast!

Just my opinion from watching the Rockets



.

Swashcuff
06-26-2011, 02:42 AM
I watch all the Rockets game, I go to college thats in between Dallas and Houston

So I watch the Mavs and Rockets all the time on Fox Sports Net Southwest

And you will not make the playoffs with Kevin Martin as your 1st option, obviously

Dont say its his teams or with out Yao, Freaking Artest got that team to the playoffs without Yao lol

He has 1) NO defense whatsoever 2)doesnt pass the ball/make his teammates better

3) turns it over more than he gets assist, and its only 2 ast!

Just my opinion from watching the Rockets



.

You didn't address any of my points. I didn't watch all the Rockets games. I watched maybe 12 for the most last season so visually your opinion holds more ground than mine. However I question if you really understand how much value a player like Martin has.

Because Martin doesn't lead his team to the playoffs should not be seen as his fault. I mean honestly is there any of the remaining SGs you think would be able to take that team to the post season.

Htownballa1622
06-26-2011, 02:44 AM
26.2 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.0 tpg. That is the career line of a player who many argue as one of the greatest scorers in NBA history. Clearly he is a wing player. He turned the ball more than his ast/to ratio was worst than that of Martin's.

Kevin Martin's style of play doesn't lend to much assists also added to the fact that he is not that good of a passer. Though very one dimensional Martin is the most efficient volume scoring SG in the entire league.

Martin's style of play absolutely makes his teammates better, you don't think knocking down shot after shot and having one of the 4th (Ray Allen, Jason Terry and Jason Richardson's are better) highest %ast of everyone on that list while averaging 6 more points that Ray Allen (the man who averages the most among those who have a high %ast) helps his teammates?

I mean there are tones of people who don't think Rondo is that great of a PG because he has a great shooter in Ray Allen to pass the ball to. Doesn't that mean that Allen in turn makes Rondo better? Don't you think his high offensive IQ helps his teammates?

You guys seriously underestimate the value of intangible worth. I would think a fan of Dirk would be able to comprehend this but apparently you haven't watched Martin enough this past season to make a proper judgement.


Well said :clap:

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 02:45 AM
I would rather have Wade, Kobe, Manu, Johnson, Ellis, Gordon over him

And I think they are all talented over him, I think Martin would be a PERFECT 6th man on a contending team like Terry, Odom, and Crawford since he mainly a scorer

But I do have him as the 7th or 8th SG

Swashcuff
06-26-2011, 02:48 AM
I would rather have Wade, Kobe, Manu, Johnson, Ellis, Gordon over him

And I think they are all talented over him, I think Martin would be a PERFECT 6th man on a contending team like Terry, Odom, and Crawford since he mainly a scorer

But I do have him as the 7th or 8th SG

Martin wouldn't be PERFECT for that role. Monta would. Martin is more of a #2 option but not the 2nd best player, eg Rip Hamilton on Detroit's championship team.

Htownballa1622
06-26-2011, 02:49 AM
I watch all the Rockets game, I go to college thats in between Dallas and Houston

So I watch the Mavs and Rockets all the time on Fox Sports Net Southwest

And you will not make the playoffs with Kevin Martin as your 1st option, obviously

Dont say its his teams or with out Yao, Freaking Artest got that team to the playoffs without Yao lol

He has 1) NO defense whatsoever 2)doesnt pass the ball/make his teammates better

3) turns it over more than he gets assist, and its only 2 ast!

Just my opinion from watching the Rockets



.

First, ron didn't single handedly get us to the playoffs.

Secondly, what does that have to do with martin not being top 5?

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 02:53 AM
You didn't address any of my points. I didn't watch all the Rockets games. I watched maybe 12 for the most last season so visually your opinion holds more ground than mine. However I question if you really understand how much value a player like Martin has.

Because Martin doesn't lead his team to the playoffs should not be seen as his fault. I mean honestly is there any of the remaining SGs you think would be able to take that team to the post season.

I def respect your opinion!!!! And I want you to know this is just my opinion

I have him as #7 or #8 so its not like I am sayin he is a scrub or anything

And I do think:

Lowry
Manu/Johnson
Budinger
Scola
Hayes

would make an 6-8 seed, they were only a few games out


Brooks
Artest
Battier
Scola
Hayes

Made the 5th seed!!!! lol :)

Htownballa1622
06-26-2011, 02:57 AM
I def respect your opinion!!!! And I want you to know this is just my opinion

I have him as #7 or #8 so its not like I am sayin he is a scrub or anything

And I do think:

Lowry
Manu/Johnson
Budinger
Scola
Hayes

would make an 6-8 seed, they were only a few games out


Brooks
Artest
Battier
Scola
Hayes

Made the 5th seed!!!! lol :)

Yao played 77 games that year before going down with that injury against l.a.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 03:12 AM
Yao played 77 games that year before going down with that injury against l.a.

Yeah I just realized it was last season that he was out not the year before

I still feel the same about Martin though

LakersIn5
06-26-2011, 06:24 AM
kmart > joe johnson. switch kmart and jj. hawks still make the 2nd round. rockets still miss the playoffs. talent wise id rather have kmart.

ellis should be 4th

wade,kobe,manu,ellis,ray,kmart thats my top 6

b.mill
06-26-2011, 06:34 AM
Gotta go Manu

TRF929
06-26-2011, 07:11 AM
easily Manu

And just to say my point against Martin, I live in Texas and watch a lot of Houston and SA ball, Martin is not a top 5 SG. I have him at 7 or 8. If this was best scoring SG, then yes he would be top 5 but this is all around player and he dosnt do anything else but shoot, so that brings him down quite a lot.

Another way to I look at it is, if you were building a team and everyone was in prime, who would you build around? Wade, Kobe, Manu, Roy, Ellis, Johnson, Jackson, Allen, and then maybe Martin.

But I like more all around players than one dimensional

Rivera
06-26-2011, 10:19 AM
gggggiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnooooooooooobbbbbbbbl lllllllllllllliiiiiiiiiiiii

Giraffes Rule
06-26-2011, 12:34 PM
easily Manu

And just to say my point against Martin, I live in Texas and watch a lot of Houston and SA ball, Martin is not a top 5 SG. I have him at 7 or 8. If this was best scoring SG, then yes he would be top 5 but this is all around player and he dosnt do anything else but shoot, so that brings him down quite a lot.

Another way to I look at it is, if you were building a team and everyone was in prime, who would you build around? Wade, Kobe, Manu, Roy, Ellis, Johnson, Jackson, Allen, and then maybe Martin.

But I like more all around players than one dimensional

Prime doesn't matter, it's what you are right now. Right now, Kevin Martin is the most efficient scorer in this list. For some reason everyone is ranking Monta Ellis above him, yet Martin does what Ellis does on 5 less shot attempts per game and way more efficiently. The only shooting guards that have a higher TS% than Kevin Martin are Ray Allen and Aaron Afflalo (who doesn't produce enough or play a large enough role to be considered here). Martin's win shares are also much higher than Monta Ellis. If you give me the choice, I'll take Kevin Martin 10/10 times over Monta Ellis.

Swashcuff
06-26-2011, 12:38 PM
Prime doesn't matter, it's what you are right now. Right now, Kevin Martin is the most efficient scorer in this list. For some reason everyone is ranking Monta Ellis above him, yet Martin does what Ellis does on 5 less shot attempts per game and way more efficiently. The only shooting guards that have a higher TS% than Kevin Martin are Ray Allen and Aaron Afflalo (who doesn't produce enough or play a large enough role to be considered here). Martin's win shares are also much higher than Monta Ellis. If you give me the choice, I'll take Kevin Martin 10/10 times over Monta Ellis.

:nod:

alexander_37
06-26-2011, 12:50 PM
Kevin Martin avg 2 ast in 32 minutes!!! haha (Avg 2 turn overs a game too)

And he plays no defense, Yall are overrating him if you have him in your top 5 SG

All the dude cares about is scoring and thats it, doesnt make his teammates better or play defense

Even Terry avg 4 ast, Ginobili 5, Gordon 4, Johnson 4, Ellis 5,


.
:facepalm:

thank you, no way that guy is a top 5 shooting guard
:facepalm:

26.2 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.0 tpg. That is the career line of a player who many argue as one of the greatest scorers in NBA history. Clearly he is a wing player. He turned the ball more than his ast/to ratio was worst than that of Martin's.

Kevin Martin's style of play doesn't lend to much assists also added to the fact that he is not that good of a passer. Though very one dimensional Martin is the most efficient volume scoring SG in the entire league.

Martin's style of play absolutely makes his teammates better, you don't think knocking down shot after shot and having one of the 4th (Ray Allen, Jason Terry and Jason Richardson's are better) highest %ast of everyone on that list while averaging 6 more points that Ray Allen (the man who averages the most among those who have a high %ast) helps his teammates?

I mean there are tones of people who don't think Rondo is that great of a PG because he has a great shooter in Ray Allen to pass the ball to. Doesn't that mean that Allen in turn makes Rondo better? Don't you think his high offensive IQ helps his teammates?

You guys seriously underestimate the value of intangible worth. I would think a fan of Dirk would be able to comprehend this but apparently you haven't watched Martin enough this past season to make a proper judgement.

Thank you, someone with SOME semblance of intelligence. Also I can see how someone would vote Manu over Martin MAYBE. But the volume Martin produced this year at THAT efficiency there really is no argument.

Swashcuff
06-26-2011, 12:55 PM
Thank you, someone with SOME semblance of intelligence. Also I can see how someone would vote Manu over Martin MAYBE. But the volume Martin produced this year at THAT efficiency there really is no argument.

Don't get me wrong I voted Manu because IMO right now Manu is indeed better but the utter disrespect by others was unpleasant, I felt incline to bring a case as to why Martin was not as bad as they made him out to be.

Hawkeye15
06-26-2011, 01:02 PM
:facepalm:

:facepalm:


Thank you, someone with SOME semblance of intelligence. Also I can see how someone would vote Manu over Martin MAYBE. But the volume Martin produced this year at THAT efficiency there really is no argument.

i will be out in defense of Martin in the #4 thread as well.

Giraffes Rule
06-26-2011, 01:05 PM
:facepalm:

:facepalm:


Thank you, someone with SOME semblance of intelligence. Also I can see how someone would vote Manu over Martin MAYBE. But the volume Martin produced this year at THAT efficiency there really is no argument.

Actually, there is an argument for Manu over Martin (because he is better). Defensively, Manu is much better than Martin and it's not even close. Meanwhile, Manu gets more assists per game and elevates his teammates (with about double the assist percentage). It's not like Manu is inefficient, he's still a very efficient scorer. Martin is just slightly more efficient. Manu is above him because of his defense and versatility.

stejay
06-26-2011, 01:11 PM
Ginobli, although I was tempted to vote for Ellis or Johnson

(edit, mistake)

Hawkeye15
06-26-2011, 01:27 PM
how can anyone vote Ellis here?

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 01:30 PM
I really dont see how people like Kevin Martin over Ginobili, Johnson, and Ellis (Even Eric Gordon)

Sorry but I dont

Giraffes Rule
06-26-2011, 01:32 PM
I really dont see how people like Kevin Martin over Ginobili, Johnson, and Ellis (Even Eric Gordon)

Sorry but I dont

I guess you didn't bother to read the posts where I compared Ellis and Martin and Martin destroys him? Johnson too.

Hustlenomics
06-26-2011, 01:36 PM
:facepalm:

:facepalm:


Thank you, someone with SOME semblance of intelligence. Also I can see how someone would vote Manu over Martin MAYBE. But the volume Martin produced this year at THAT efficiency there really is no argument.

sticks and stones may break my bones but you're facepalms will never hurt me guy. Im ok with you guys voting Manu, but Martin who can't lead his team to wins should not be over a superior shooting guard in Joe Johnson

Giraffes Rule
06-26-2011, 01:38 PM
sticks and stones may break my bones but you're facepalms will never hurt me guy. Im ok with you guys voting Manu, but Martin who can't lead his team to wins should not be over a superior shooting guard in Joe Johnson

Atlanta won 1 more game than Houston last year. With better players and with a weaker conference too.

Hustlenomics
06-26-2011, 01:41 PM
I want to see Martin drop 20 points in the fourth quarter of a playoff game

LJEATON26
06-26-2011, 01:45 PM
Picked Joe Johnson.

Giraffes Rule
06-26-2011, 01:46 PM
I want to see Martin drop 20 points in the fourth quarter of a playoff game

I like how someone challenges you with a fact that shows that you don't know what you're talking about, then you completely change the subject to something irrelevant. Well played, Mauer.

Hustlenomics
06-26-2011, 01:48 PM
I like how someone challenges you with a fact that shows that you don't know what you're talking about, then you completely change the subject to something irrelevant. Well played, Mauer.

right, your "fact" means nothing when Joe Johnson has been consistenly leading his team to the playoffs while Martin doesn't

Swashcuff
06-26-2011, 01:50 PM
right, your "fact" means nothing when Joe Johnson has been consistenly leading his team to the playoffs while Martin doesn't

Smh. How could someone be this closed minded? Sigh.

Giraffes Rule
06-26-2011, 01:51 PM
right, your "fact" means nothing when Joe Johnson has been consistenly leading his team to the playoffs while Martin doesn't

That means nothing when the difference is only 1 win. The Rockets are in a division with 3 playoff teams. Spurs, who had the best record in the west, Mavs, who won the championship, and the Hornet, who... are the Hornets.

Not to mention team performance doesn't mean anything when you're comparing individual players. You base your votes on the most irrelevant ********.

Hustlenomics
06-26-2011, 02:01 PM
No I just think Johnson is better, ask any player in the league they'll tell you the same. Team performance isn't the only thing either because i think Ellis is better than martin too

Ill21
06-26-2011, 02:15 PM
Manu

BabyStockton
06-26-2011, 02:38 PM
Manu

manu?

J-Relo
06-26-2011, 02:40 PM
Manu is getting this, but individually it's Monta

GREATNESS ONE
06-26-2011, 03:26 PM
Again being a Avid NBA fan. Tyreke Evans should be on this list and is better then half the names up there.

Giraffes Rule
06-26-2011, 04:08 PM
No I just think Johnson is better, ask any player in the league they'll tell you the same. Team performance isn't the only thing either because i think Ellis is better than martin too

I know you think that, because that's the only thing you've said. If you can't do anything to back up that you think Johnson is the third best shooting guard in the league, then your opinion is based on irrelevant ********. What's next? You're gonna quote NBA 2k11 ratings to back up your BS?

Swashcuff
06-26-2011, 04:47 PM
I know you think that, because that's the only thing you've said. If you can't do anything to back up that you think Johnson is the third best shooting guard in the league, then your opinion is based on irrelevant ********. What's next? You're gonna quote NBA 2k11 ratings to back up your BS?

:laugh2: :laugh:

Classic!

KnicksR4Real
06-26-2011, 05:14 PM
manu is so overrated.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 05:22 PM
manu is so overrated.

If Iman had goggles I would think thats Amare in your sig

GREATNESS ONE
06-26-2011, 05:33 PM
manu is so overrated.

If it makes you feel any better it's because Brandon Roy fell off and their isn't a clear cut #3 yet. Also Manu is falling down that list and players like Tyreke Evans is going to be very high on everyone's list come the end of next season.

Swashcuff
06-26-2011, 05:37 PM
If it makes you feel any better it's because Brandon Roy fell off and their isn't a clear cut #3 yet. Also Manu is falling down that list and players like Tyreke Evans is going to be very high on everyone's list come the end of next season.

What is it with you and Tyreke bro? Based on his rookie season and Brandon Roy's injury last season was the perfect opportunity for him to grab hold of that #3 spot but his regression hurt his cause. Who is to say for certain that he's going to become THAT much better next season. I mean its indeed a possibility because he is a major talent but you'd be basing that on talent alone, he showed virtually no improvement in his game in his sophomore season in the NBA.

Avenged
06-26-2011, 05:46 PM
Not sure why Martin is getting so disrespected here.

He holds a higher PER than Ellis, JJ, Gordon, and Tyreke.

He has a higher TS% than those I mentioned.

He's tied in eFG% with Gordon but beats everyone else out.

He leads them in Win Shares and WS/48.

Martin averages 23 efficient points with a higher 3 point % and FT%.

This is not to mention he plays the less minutes than them all but produces more.

LTBaByyy
06-26-2011, 05:57 PM
Isnt it time for the 4th best SG????

I am ready to argue

GREATNESS ONE
06-26-2011, 05:58 PM
What is it with you and Tyreke bro? Based on his rookie season and Brandon Roy's injury last season was the perfect opportunity for him to grab hold of that #3 spot but his regression hurt his cause. Who is to say for certain that he's going to become THAT much better next season. I mean its indeed a possibility because he is a major talent but you'd be basing that on talent alone, he showed virtually no improvement in his game in his sophomore season in the NBA.

First of all, I don't think he's number 3 LOL but I do agree he can take that spot based on talent alone just like a few other players on this list. Also let's not knock on him having a bad year when he was hurt for 30+ games and yet he still had had good numbers with a slight drop. Don't feel like looking them up but somewhere around 19 5 5. Anyway I just think this kid should be on this list and easily a better player then half the players up there.

GREATNESS ONE
06-26-2011, 06:01 PM
Not sure why Martin is getting so disrespected here.

He holds a higher PER than Ellis, JJ, Gordon, and Tyreke.

He has a higher TS% than those I mentioned.

He's tied in eFG% with Gordon but beats everyone else out.

He leads them in Win Shares and WS/48.

Martin averages 23 efficient points with a higher 3 point % and FT%.

This is not to mention he plays the less minutes than them all but produces more.

I'm with you Avenged, I have Martin 4th on my list too slightly above Ellis but I do think Ellis is going to win the 4th spot.

BklynKnicks3
06-26-2011, 11:57 PM
Jamal Crawford